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HonestChieffan
04-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Interesting story. But one that IMHO has a message. You can achieve substantial wealth by regular savings especially now days with 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's. But it requires dedication.

There are scads of stories like this but this is a pretty good one.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-money-makeover-20110323,0,2830705.story

Short Leash Hootie
04-03-2011, 09:41 AM
this sounds like a horrible life style...

boring

also

80K teaching 4th grade? Really? Wow.

chiefsnorth
04-03-2011, 10:00 AM
Dane just left again

AustinChief
04-03-2011, 02:56 PM
this sounds like a horrible life style...

boring

also

80K teaching 4th grade? Really? Wow.

WTF? A semi-retarded monkey could teach 4th grade... how the fuck do you justify paying 80K to a 4th grade teacher?

LiveSteam
04-03-2011, 04:41 PM
WTF? A semi-retarded monkey could teach 4th grade... how the fuck do you justify paying 80K to a 4th grade teacher?have you ever been around a group of smart ass 4th graders?
its all you can do,not to strangle them & their parents.

BucEyedPea
04-03-2011, 08:06 PM
His diet will kill him before he can retire. What a waste.

Jaric
04-04-2011, 07:49 AM
His diet will kill him before he can retire. What a waste.

That was the first thing I thought too. I applaud the guy for taking his finances into his own hands, but he could stand to learn a little bit about moderation.

NewChief
04-04-2011, 07:53 AM
WTF? A semi-retarded monkey could teach 4th grade... how the **** do you justify paying 80K to a 4th grade teacher?

You're insane. Primary teachers aren't brain surgeons by any means, but they have a skill set that very few people have. Trying to make a classroom of 20-30 children learn productively, especially in this day and age, is a huge challenge.

Is it worth 80k? Not necessarily, but to act like anyone could do the job is just silly.

Chief Henry
04-04-2011, 08:33 AM
The guy has his act togeather...good for him. I almost wish he was a politician.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-04-2011, 09:03 AM
I'd say the guy has a touch of OCD honestly.

AustinChief
04-04-2011, 02:15 PM
You're insane. Primary teachers aren't brain surgeons by any means, but they have a skill set that very few people have. Trying to make a classroom of 20-30 children learn productively, especially in this day and age, is a huge challenge.

Is it worth 80k? Not necessarily, but to act like anyone could do the job is just silly.

ok I may have slightly exaggerated but I know far far far too many primary school teachers to think the job is worth anything more than 40k max. I used to mentor 4th graders a long time ago.. I know it takes patience and a certain temperament... but it is far from a skill position.

vailpass
04-04-2011, 02:36 PM
ok I may have slightly exaggerated but I know far far far too many primary school teachers to think the job is worth anything more than 40k max. I used to mentor 4th graders a long time ago.. I know it takes patience and a certain temperament... but it is far from a skill position.

It is very much a skill position.

Educators at my son's school are compensated well above the 40k mark and worth every penny.

At the 4th and 5th grade level they are preparing the children to succeed at the 6th grade level, at the 6th grade level they are preparing them to succeed at the 7th and 8th grade level.

This is critical as grades from 7th and 8th, along with extracurriculars, are used to determine prep admissions, which in turn are critical in determining undergrad admissions. 4th grade is very important therefore the 4th grade educator is very important.

AustinChief
04-04-2011, 02:52 PM
It is very much a skill position.

Educators at my son's school are compensated well above the 40k mark and worth every penny.

At the 4th and 5th grade level they are preparing the children to succeed at the 6th grade level, at the 6th grade level they are preparing them to succeed at the 7th and 8th grade level.

This is critical as grades from 7th and 8th, along with extracurriculars, are used to determine prep admissions, which in turn are critical in determining undergrad admissions. 4th grade is very important therefore the 4th grade educator is very important.

If you want to argue that it SHOULD be a skill position.. that 4th grade teachers SHOULD have advanced degrees and rigorous standards... I am with you. Fact is, that is NOT the case 99.9% of the time.

I know at least 7 people well who currently are teachers and all but ONE of them frighten me to think that they are teaching the children of America.

SHOULD 4th grade teachers be worth 80k.. sure they should... Are they? not a fucking chance.

Yes I know there are exceptions and there is always private schooling.. but I'm talking about most public schools.. our current standards are far too low. I'm in the camp that thinks we should pay teachers more... but only after we DRASTICALLY raise the standards.

vailpass
04-04-2011, 02:54 PM
If you want to argue that it SHOULD be a skill position.. that 4th grade teachers SHOULD have advanced degrees and rigorous standards... I am with you. Fact is, that is NOT the case 99.9% of the time.

I know at least 7 people well who currently are teachers and all but ONE of them frighten me to think that they are teaching the children of America.

SHOULD 4th grade teachers be worth 80k.. sure they should... Are they? not a ****ing chance.

Yes I know there are exceptions and there is always private schooling.. but I'm talking about most public schools.. our current standards are far too low. I'm in the camp that thinks we should pay teachers more... but only after we DRASTICALLY raise the standards.

That's a fair statement so long as we don't paint all educators with the same brush. There are some damn good educators out there, lots of them. Even the ones that smell like patchouli and nagchampa and switch football allegiances every time their brother in law moves to a new town.

LiveSteam
04-04-2011, 04:38 PM
When I was done with 4th grade . The teacher retired.

vailpass
04-04-2011, 04:49 PM
When I was done with 4th grade . The teacher retired.

3 years of teaching you wore her out huh? ;)

banyon
04-04-2011, 07:30 PM
WTF? A semi-retarded monkey could teach 4th grade... how the **** do you justify paying 80K to a 4th grade teacher?

This guy also teaches near Riverside, CA. Let's do a little COLA adjustment too.

Comparing him to KC, eg., results in:


Comparable salary in
Kansas City, MO-KS
$69,537

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

Assuming he started teaching at 22, that doesn't sound quite as crazy for a 20 year teacher.

alnorth
04-04-2011, 07:46 PM
this sounds like a horrible life style...

boring

also

80K teaching 4th grade? Really? Wow.

Its the LA Times. California public school teachers are the highest-paid teachers in the country, by far. That aside, when you also look just within California, LA county teachers are generally paid more than other highly-paid CA teachers elsewhere in the state.

This 4th grade teacher is an outlier. Its not my money, if the taxpayers who live there want to go broke, its their problem.

Bump
04-04-2011, 10:43 PM
fuck that, I would rather have fun through life and be fucked when I'm older. He eats a double cheeseburger from mcdonalds every day for dinner? NO.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 04:19 AM
This guy also teaches near Riverside, CA. Let's do a little COLA adjustment too.

Comparing him to KC, eg., results in:


Comparable salary in
Kansas City, MO-KS
$69,537

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

Assuming he started teaching at 22, that doesn't sound quite as crazy for a 20 year teacher.

20 years of skating on the tax payers dime... yeah ... still too high

Jenson71
04-05-2011, 05:18 AM
Interesting story. But one that IMHO has a message. You can achieve substantial wealth by regular savings especially now days with 401k's, IRA's, Roth IRA's. But it requires dedication.

There are scads of stories like this but this is a pretty good one.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-money-makeover-20110323,0,2830705.story

No children. The moral of the story is that children are expensive.

banyon
04-05-2011, 06:43 AM
20 years of skating on the tax payers dime... yeah ... still too high

You realize that he pays taxes and works too, right?

trndobrd
04-05-2011, 08:46 AM
"But he worries constantly about money — especially that he will not have enough for retirement — and has made saving a center of his life."

This seems like a crappy way to go through life. Especially since eating off the the $1 menu and microwave burritos is a recipie for dying at age 62.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 12:07 PM
You realize that he pays taxes and works too, right?

Yes.. I am just saying that his tax payer paid salary is far too high for the standards and requirements of his job... of course it's California and there is a reason that state is circling the drain.

Bowser
04-05-2011, 12:31 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VVE7scLUVwI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 12:39 PM
Generally speaking, anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid have very little exposure to the profession or the people who do it; it's become a thankless job where you get to jump through more and more hoops while spending your own time and money to do it. I'd say if you want a REAL EDUCATION, marry a teacher and watch the crap they have to put up with from both the parents and the administrators.

One of my favorite examples was the teachers at my wife's school were told they could not drink coffee in front of their students anymore; bad example of healthy living. When it was pointed out to the Principal that many students (this is grade school now) showed up with assorted Starbuck concoctions their parents had bought them, she said "Well that's OK...the children can have those...but you should be setting an example"

I have much worse examples of the treatment teachers get, but this one always struck me as one of the dumbest ever.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Generally speaking, anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid have very little exposure to the profession or the people who do it; it's become a thankless job where you get to jump through more and more hoops while spending your own time and money to do it. I'd say if you want a REAL EDUCATION, marry a teacher and watch the crap they have to put up with from both the parents and the administrators.

One of my favorite examples was the teachers at my wife's school were told they could not drink coffee in front of their students anymore; bad example of healthy living. When it was pointed out to the Principal that many students (this is grade school now) showed up with assorted Starbuck concoctions their parents had bought them, she said "Well that's OK...the children can have those...but you should be setting an example"

I have much worse examples of the treatment teachers get, but this one always struck me as one of the dumbest ever.

Pest Control Worker - 28K
Sewer Worker - 30K
Roadkill Collector - 37K

IF teachers were held to a significantly higher standard than sure, I could see the higher salary... but just putting up with a bunch of nonsense is not justification for being grossly overpaid.

I have no problem paying teachers well... I DO however have a problem with the outrageously low standards we have for teachers who THEN have an expectation of being paid well.

Fish
04-05-2011, 01:02 PM
This guy sounds miserable as hell....

When the weather turns rainy and cold, he dons a snowsuit for riding. But he worries constantly about money — especially that he will not have enough for retirement — and has made saving a center of his life.

The schoolteacher was married at one point, but his extreme saving habits contributed to the relationship ending in divorce.

Moehlman had mentioned his diet, which was almost entirely devoid of fruits and vegetables. He had never eaten a grape in his life.

NewChief
04-05-2011, 01:02 PM
Pest Control Worker - 28K
Sewer Worker - 30K
Roadkill Collector - 37K

IF teachers were held to a significantly higher standard than sure, I could see the higher salary... but just putting up with a bunch of nonsense is not justification for being grossly overpaid.


I would love to hear about these standards. Outline your plan, please. While you're at it, define the parameters by which you wish to measure student learning/achievement. Judging from your parallel professions, I'm assuming that we're supposed to exterminate students then flush them down the toilet.

Brock
04-05-2011, 01:04 PM
I have no problem paying teachers well... I DO however have a problem with the outrageously low standards we have for teachers who THEN have an expectation of being paid well.

How do you raise the standard when public schools are reduced to teaching to the lowest common denominator? I'm all for culling out all the stupid kids and the non-hackers and putting them on a different education path, but that's not going to fly in an equal opportunity environment.

chiefsnorth
04-05-2011, 01:13 PM
You aren't paid based on your job's social importance. You're paid based on how rare the skillset required to land that job is.

jiveturkey
04-05-2011, 01:15 PM
You aren't paid based on your job's social importance. You're paid based on how rare the skillset required to land that job is.
And how good you are at it.

There's a shit ton of sales people walking around out there but the good ones command top dollar for their services.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 01:19 PM
I would love to hear about these standards. Outline your plan, please. While you're at it, define the parameters by which you wish to measure student learning/achievement. Judging from your parallel professions, I'm assuming that we're supposed to exterminate students then flush them down the toilet.

My post was in response to the previous post and my point was that those professions have more right to bitch about work conditions and they earn significantly less. So, saying that teachers should earn more because they put up with crap is a bogus argument.

I don't have any plans to define parameters for measuring student achievement... I am simply talking about the teachers training, testing and qualifications.

My plan? Pretty simple, put some fucking standards in place. The current "standards" in most states are a joke. I'd require a Masters Degree, and more importantly I'd completely overhaul the education degree curriculum at the university level. In addition I'd make the certification tests significantly harder. And of course, I'd require YEARLY continuing education and testing to be done during the summer months. THEN I'd make the salary competitive... probably in the $80K range maybe higher... the benefit to the country would more than pay for it.

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Pest Control Worker - 28K
Sewer Worker - 30K
Roadkill Collector - 37K

IF teachers were held to a significantly higher standard than sure, I could see the higher salary... but just putting up with a bunch of nonsense is not justification for being grossly overpaid.

I have no problem paying teachers well... I DO however have a problem with the outrageously low standards we have for teachers who THEN have an expectation of being paid well.

Outrageously low standards? How so?

Not sure why you listed the three jobs...do you think these postions required Bachelor's and Master's degrees?

Boiling teaching down to putting up with a bunch of nonsense is laughable.

I have a feeling you're the kind of parent/person who's made my wife's job that much harder; someone who feels anyone can do what they do, and give them little to no respect for doing what anyone with any insight whatsoever realizes is a damn difficult and important job.

I'm sure I haven't convinced you, and the next teacher parent conference you attend, and find out your kid isn't doing as well as you think he should, be sure and blame it on the teacher and take no responsibility for the parenting side of education.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Outrageously low standards? How so?

Not sure why you listed the three jobs...do you think these postions required Bachelor's and Master's degrees?

Boiling teaching down to putting up with a bunch of nonsense is laughable.

I have a feeling you're the kind of parent/person who's made my wife's job that much harder; someone who feels anyone can do what they do, and give them little to no respect for doing what anyone with any insight whatsoever realizes is a damn difficult and important job.

I'm sure I haven't convinced you, and the next teacher parent conference you attend, and find out your kid isn't doing as well as you think he should, be sure and blame it on the teacher and take no responsibility for the parenting side of education.

How so regarding standards? Well to start .. have you looked at the education curriculum at most colleges? It's a freaking joke. What about continuing education requirements? Standardized testing that isn't a complete joke?

And yes, it is an important job... and you entirely missed my points.

Point #1 - trying to justify a high teachers salary based on a crappy workplace environment is a bad argument.. as proved by the jobs I posted... those jobs were simply there to counter YOUR post not to be analogous to teachers in general

Point #2 - I have no lack of respect for individual teachers who are intelligent, qualified and hard working... I went to a school with quite a few of them... but luckily my school had significantly higher standards than most and a majority of the staff held advanced degrees. I am not at all implying that your wife couldn't live up to the higher standards I propose and in doing so should earn more money... I don't see why this is such a hard or objectionable concept.

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 01:49 PM
My post was in response to the previous post and my point was that those professions have more right to bitch about work conditions and they earn significantly less. So, saying that teachers should earn more because they put up with crap is a bogus argument.

I don't have any plans to define parameters for measuring student achievement... I am simply talking about the teachers training, testing and qualifications.

My plan? Pretty simple, put some ****ing standards in place. The current "standards" in most states are a joke. I'd require a Masters Degree, and more importantly I'd completely overhaul the education degree curriculum at the university level. In addition I'd make the certification tests significantly harder. And of course, I'd require YEARLY continuing education and testing to be done during the summer months. THEN I'd make the salary competitive... probably in the $80K range maybe higher... the benefit to the country would more than pay for it.

Yeah, you're going to have tons of people heading into education with stricter and more difficult obstacles in getting their certificate. Truth is, teaching is a calling...of the 30 years of teaching my wife has done, I've literally met two teachers who I thought didn't have their heart in it...the burnout level is gigantic, and accelerating with every new batch of teachers coming out of the universities. Not because teaching is hard; that part they love and wish the got to do more of it; it's because of the lack of support from the administrators, new hoops every time they turn around, and confrontational nature of the parent's anymore...if there's something REALLY wrong with education, I look to the family unit more than anything.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 01:55 PM
Yeah, you're going to have tons of people heading into education with stricter and more difficult obstacles in getting their certificate. Truth is, teaching is a calling...of the 30 years of teaching my wife has done, I've literally met two teachers who I thought didn't have their heart in it...the burnout level is gigantic, and accelerating with every new batch of teachers coming out of the universities. Not because teaching is hard; that part they love and wish the got to do more of it; it's because of the lack of support from the administrators, new hoops every time they turn around, and confrontational nature of the parent's anymore...if there's something REALLY wrong with education, I look to the family unit more than anything.

I'll agree with the lack of accountability at the family level... but that doesn't change my argument.

Saying it's a "calling" and that most teachers "have their heart in it" also doesn't change my argument. I don't want my surgeon to "have his heart in it" I want the bastard to know what he's doing!

And you won't have a lack of teachers IF you increase the pay to match the increased standards.

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 01:59 PM
How so regarding standards? Well to start .. have you looked at the education curriculum at most colleges? It's a freaking joke. What about continuing education requirements? Standardized testing that isn't a complete joke?

And yes, it is an important job... and you entirely missed my points.

Point #1 - trying to justify a high teachers salary based on a crappy workplace environment is a bad argument.. as proved by the jobs I posted... those jobs were simply there to counter YOUR post not to be analogous to teachers in general

Point #2 - I have no lack of respect for individual teachers who are intelligent, qualified and hard working... I went to a school with quite a few of them... but luckily my school had significantly higher standards than most and a majority of the staff held advanced degrees. I am not at all implying that your wife couldn't live up to the higher standards I propose and in doing so should earn more money... I don't see why this is such a hard or objectionable concept.

My experience is most teachers ARE intelligent, qualified and hard working...and have paid good money for their educations, and pay even more, years into their profession, and the more crap you and others want to strap on their backs because of failling grades and standards are entirely misplaced.

Education will improve when administrators start backing their teachers, politicians get their asses out of the way with ignorant band-aids and pathetic slogans, and parents step up and start acting like they have an active roll in their children's education aside from bitching.

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 02:04 PM
I'll agree with the lack of accountability at the family level... but that doesn't change my argument.

Saying it's a "calling" and that most teachers "have their heart in it" also doesn't change my argument. I don't want my surgeon to "have his heart in it" I want the bastard to know what he's doing!

And you won't have a lack of teachers IF you increase the pay to match the increased standards.

Teachers generally ARE qualified...after all, it's not heart surgery, right? And remember that shitty teacher we all had? Yeah, the one who didn't have their heart in their job? They probably were as qualified as the rest, but that didn't quite make it for us, did it?

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 02:06 PM
My experience is most teachers ARE intelligent, qualified and hard working...and have paid good money for their educations, and pay even more, years into their profession, and the more crap you and others want to strap on their backs because of failling grades and standards are entirely misplaced.

So if they are "intelligent, qualified and hard working" I don't see why they wouldn't want to prove it and get paid more accordingly? If my boss told me I could take a test that proved my qualifications (that I already know I have) and if I passed that test and agreed to do some continuing education and yearly testing and as a result I would earn 20% more money.. I'd jump at the chance.

This isn't rocket science... it seems like a simple and equitable proposal.

donkhater
04-05-2011, 02:09 PM
You aren't paid based on your job's social importance. You're paid based on how rare the skillset required to land that job is.

Alright. That's enough common sense out of you. Now shut it.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 02:11 PM
Teachers generally ARE qualified...after all, it's not heart surgery, right? And remember that shitty teacher we all had? Yeah, the one who didn't have their heart in their job? They probably were as qualified as the rest, but that didn't quite make it for us, did it?

No, frankly quite a few of them aren't qualified. (and with such low standards how can anyone tell who is and who isn't?) No it's not heart surgery, I'd wager it's more important than heart surgery... and should be treated accordingly.

And NO, the worst teacher I had had his heart into his job as a matter of fact he was one of the most enthusiastic teachers I can remember ...but he was a moron. He was loved by the dumber students and hated by anyone who actually cared about their education...

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 02:17 PM
No, frankly quite a few of them aren't qualified. (and with such low standards how can anyone tell who is and who isn't?) No it's not heart surgery, I'd wager it's more important than heart surgery... and should be treated accordingly.

And NO, the worst teacher I had had his heart into his job as a matter of fact he was one of the most enthusiastic teachers I can remember ...but he was a moron. He was loved by the dumber students and hated by anyone who actually cared about their education...

Well we'll have to disagree...and when the day comes when they pay teachers a lot of money to get better qualified people who've passed lofty standards (will never happen...you're dreaming) and education is still on the slide, you'll have to blame somebody else...but you probably won't.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Well we'll have to disagree...and when the day comes when they pay teachers a lot of money to get better qualified people who've passed lofty standards (will never happen...you're dreaming) and education is still on the slide, you'll have to blame somebody else...but you probably won't.

I absolutely know it isn't happening.. but it's a good idea even if only a dream... and you seem to think I am blaming all of the woes of education on the lack of standards for teachers... I'm not. I'd say the #1 problem is the lack of primary education at home and support for education in general. #2 is a completely outdated system #3 overall lack of equitable funding #4 (way down on the list) low standards/not enough continuing education for teachers

fan4ever
04-05-2011, 02:26 PM
I absolutely know it isn't happening.. but it's a good idea even if only a dream... and you seem to think I am blaming all of the woes of education on the lack of standards for teachers... I'm not. I'd say the #1 problem is the lack of primary education at home and support for education in general. #2 is a completely outdated system #3 overall lack of equitable funding #4 (way down on the list) low standards/not enough continuing education for teachers

Well in that regard, I'd say you're much more on target.

Good debating with you; you kept it civil and grown up...which doesn't happen a lot here in D.C. as I'm sure you know.

NewChief
04-05-2011, 03:38 PM
So if they are "intelligent, qualified and hard working" I don't see why they wouldn't want to prove it and get paid more accordingly? If my boss told me I could take a test that proved my qualifications (that I already know I have) and if I passed that test and agreed to do some continuing education and yearly testing and as a result I would earn 20% more money.. I'd jump at the chance.

This isn't rocket science... it seems like a simple and equitable proposal.

Teachers already get incentives for continuing education. Someone with a Masters makes more than someone with a BA. Someone with a PhD gets even more. You can also earn steps up the salary scale through continuing education. Teachers are also required to engage in ongoing professional development (though that system should be overhauled to ensure that it's meaningful, sustained professional development not the vacuous shlock that most districts peddle out in front of their teachers).

The problem is that the educational reform movement isn't trying to tie salary into any of these things. They're trying to tie pay (and job security) into standardized test performance, which is a bunch of bullshit.

vailpass
04-05-2011, 03:55 PM
Well in that regard, I'd say you're much more on target.

Good debating with you; you kept it civil and grown up...which doesn't happen a lot here in D.C. as I'm sure you know.

Ass kisser.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Teachers already get incentives for continuing education. Someone with a Masters makes more than someone with a BA. Someone with a PhD gets even more. You can also earn steps up the salary scale through continuing education. Teachers are also required to engage in ongoing professional development (though that system should be overhauled to ensure that it's meaningful, sustained professional development not the vacuous shlock that most districts peddle out in front of their teachers).

The problem is that the educational reform movement isn't trying to tie salary into any of these things. They're trying to tie pay (and job security) into standardized test performance, which is a bunch of bullshit.

I would agree wholeheartedly with you on this point. Are they tying it to standardized tests taken by the teachers or tests taken by the students? I'm all for testing teachers as it applies to continuing ed but otherwise I can't see how it would be meaningful... and if you mean testing of students... that seems incredibly unfair.

If I start with a bunch of kids with awful scores, it may be due to a number of external factors beyond my control... likewise if I start with a bunch of kids with incredibly high scores... there isn't anywhere for them to go but down .. due I lose pay for that? Yeah, that's just dumb... whoever is advocating that needed better teaching in primary school :D

Demonpenz
04-05-2011, 04:08 PM
Teachers can't even get kids to pull up their damn pants. fail

NewChief
04-05-2011, 04:08 PM
I would agree wholeheartedly with you on this point. Are they tying it to standardized tests taken by the teachers or tests taken by the students? I'm all for testing teachers as it applies to continuing ed but otherwise I can't see how it would be meaningful... and if you mean testing of students... that seems incredibly unfair.

If I start with a bunch of kids with awful scores, it may be due to a number of external factors beyond my control... likewise if I start with a bunch of kids with incredibly high scores... there isn't anywhere for them to go but down .. due I lose pay for that? Yeah, that's just dumb... whoever is advocating that needed better teaching in primary school :D

Yes. It's testing of the kids... and yes. Exactly. It's idiotic and unfair, but the politicians can't seem to see that. It's also led (in the highly touted Washington DC school reformation of Michelle Rhee) to rampant teaching due to the pressures put on administrators and teachers to raise student scores at all costs.

But yeah, man. I'm all for raising the bar for teachers and providing more improvement and accountability. That's all good (I have a Master's and participate in an average of 150+ hours of PD a year). It's just the way it's being implemented currently is wack.

trndobrd
04-05-2011, 04:42 PM
Yes. It's testing of the kids... and yes. Exactly. It's idiotic and unfair, but the politicians can't seem to see that. It's also led (in the highly touted Washington DC school reformation of Michelle Rhee) to rampant teaching due to the pressures put on administrators and teachers to raise student scores at all costs.

But yeah, man. I'm all for raising the bar for teachers and providing more improvement and accountability. That's all good (I have a Master's and participate in an average of 150+ hours of PD a year). It's just the way it's being implemented currently is wack.

If not by meeting standards or improvement criteria in standardized testing, how do you measure outcomes of the educational process?

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 04:57 PM
If not by meeting standards or improvement criteria in standardized testing, how do you measure outcomes of the educational process?

I think the process and variables involved are far far far too complex for standardized testing to ever be fair. I think it is also a wrongheaded backwards approach to the issue... increase the standards and education level of teachers (and make a number of other necessary changes to the system) and you don't need the testing.. the results will follow.

NewChief
04-05-2011, 05:16 PM
I think the process and variables involved are far far far too complex for standardized testing to ever be fair. I think it is also a wrongheaded backwards approach to the issue... increase the standards and education level of teachers (and make a number of other necessary changes to the system) and you don't need the testing.. the results will follow.

Agreed. According to Daniel Pink, the key to motivation lies in intrinsic rewards which come through autonomy and meaningful collaboration. If you ensure that your teachers are good "raw material" and give them the necessary tools to be motivated (by the way, autonomy and meaningful collaboration are both totally undermined through the standardized testing movement), then you'll see results.

Trnobrd... I'll try to give you a more meaningful response later tonight when my kids are in bed. Just finished dinner and about to take them for a walk in the woods.

banyon
04-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Yes.. I am just saying that his tax payer paid salary is far too high for the standards and requirements of his job... of course it's California and there is a reason that state is circling the drain.

that's fine, but the initial way you put it made it sound like he was a welfare fraud artist.

AustinChief
04-05-2011, 05:34 PM
that's fine, but the initial way you put it made it sound like he was a welfare fraud artist.

ha, yeah just a BIT of hyperbole...

NewChief
04-05-2011, 08:19 PM
DAMNIT. I had a huge post typed up and closed my tab.

I'm just going to post some videos now:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tNpZ60IJ42o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zDZFcDGpL4U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

trndobrd
04-05-2011, 08:35 PM
Agreed. According to Daniel Pink, the key to motivation lies in intrinsic rewards which come through autonomy and meaningful collaboration. If you ensure that your teachers are good "raw material" and give them the necessary tools to be motivated (by the way, autonomy and meaningful collaboration are both totally undermined through the standardized testing movement), then you'll see results.

Trnobrd... I'll try to give you a more meaningful response later tonight when my kids are in bed. Just finished dinner and about to take them for a walk in the woods.


I'll look forward to it. I'm not wedded to standardized testing as a sole means of measuring outcomes. However, if our goal is to send kids out into the world with an education, we (taxpayers, educators, parents, students, colleges, etc) to measure the results of the imputs and policy decisions.

I am very frustrated with the education industry soley measuring imputs (budgets, facilities, etc.), but completely fighting any meaningful measurement of outputs. For example, over 25% of the students in our local school district drop out, but it is couched as 'success' by the district.

NewChief
04-05-2011, 08:47 PM
I'll look forward to it. I'm not wedded to standardized testing as a sole means of measuring outcomes. However, if our goal is to send kids out into the world with an education, we (taxpayers, educators, parents, students, colleges, etc) to measure the results of the imputs and policy decisions.

I am very frustrated with the education industry soley measuring imputs (budgets, facilities, etc.), but completely fighting any meaningful measurement of outputs. For example, over 25% of the students in our local school district drop out, but it is couched as 'success' by the district.

I'll try to retype my earlier extensive post. Trying to quantify student achievement is tough. Like... really tough. There are people who argue that education is, inherently, not quantifiable in that educators often have "soft" impacts on people that don't pay off until further down the road. Therefore, trying to measure those impacts with end of the year tests is foolhardy (think of how many of us and how many people you know for whom this is true where a teacher's impact on you wasn't measurable until many years later).

That being said, drop out is an AWESOME indicator of success. Firstly, drop out is about school culture, not individual teachers. It also indicates whether a school has systemic interventions in place to deal with the problems of their students. If you're at 25% dropout, that needs to be examined. We're at about about 5%, and that's still not good enough for us. I will say that drop out numbers can often be very misleading, though. Students sometimes transfer to other schools (without reporting it), get GEDs, or become incarcerated (thus enrolling in JDC's schools until they're 18) and get counted as dropouts. Our school had reported 250 dropouts last year. By the time we went through and tracked them all down (through home visits and serious detective work), we found out that only 35 kids had actually dropped out, and many of those were in the process of getting their GEDs.

Finally, the problem with a society that is married to the standardized test: just look at China. They're having to outsource creativity because they have a society that has a long history of judging things through standardized testing (it actually dates back centuries with them). They have a serious problem finding people who can think creatively and innovate. We need to play to our strengths by offering a well-rounded education that still has a place for the arts, project-based learning, and other "soft" skills, but we're moving increasingly to a society where if it's not quantifiable... it's not valid. That's sad and it's a step in the wrong direction, imo (check out the Yong Zhao video I posted in my earlier post).

trndobrd
04-05-2011, 09:31 PM
I'll try to retype my earlier extensive post. Trying to quantify student achievement is tough. Like... really tough. There are people who argue that education is, inherently, not quantifiable in that educators often have "soft" impacts on people that don't pay off until further down the road. Therefore, trying to measure those impacts with end of the year tests is foolhardy (think of how many of us and how many people you know for whom this is true where a teacher's impact on you wasn't measurable until many years later).

That being said, drop out is an AWESOME indicator of success. Firstly, drop out is about school culture, not individual teachers. It also indicates whether a school has systemic interventions in place to deal with the problems of their students. If you're at 25% dropout, that needs to be examined. We're at about about 5%, and that's still not good enough for us. I will say that drop out numbers can often be very misleading, though. Students sometimes transfer to other schools (without reporting it), get GEDs, or become incarcerated (thus enrolling in JDC's schools until they're 18) and get counted as dropouts. Our school had reported 250 dropouts last year. By the time we went through and tracked them all down (through home visits and serious detective work), we found out that only 35 kids had actually dropped out, and many of those were in the process of getting their GEDs.

Finally, the problem with a society that is married to the standardized test: just look at China. They're having to outsource creativity because they have a society that has a long history of judging things through standardized testing (it actually dates back centuries with them). They have a serious problem finding people who can think creatively and innovate. We need to play to our strengths by offering a well-rounded education that still has a place for the arts, project-based learning, and other "soft" skills, but we're moving increasingly to a society where if it's not quantifiable... it's not valid. That's sad and it's a step in the wrong direction, imo (check out the Yong Zhao video I posted in my earlier post).


Many things in the world are difficult to measure and quantify, but I can't thing of anything more important than education.

Some outcomes seem easy to measure, can a 9th grader do simple math, can a highschool student read, etc. I think we all know it when we see it really good or really bad. Those soft impacts work both ways. I still remember in 4th grade how evident which students had which teacher for 3rd grade. Looking back, I'm certain every teacher in the building knew one of the 3rd grade teachers was substandard.

I've had three thoughts on this.

1) Move the fed back out of the education business. Either send the tax dollars back to the states in the form of block grants, tax reduction or some other format. I would also like to see the reduction of mega-districts (that may be a Kansas problem). There would not be a need for the NCLB stick if local parents and school boards were making decisions based on points 2 & 3.

2) States should have some standardized skill testing. Both as a means of identifying individual student progress, and to determine if the teachers and schools are meeting baselines. There should be a standardized graduation test.

3) Include outside sources in school district performance evaluations, parent reviews, student evaluations*, college admissions & trade certifications, graduation rates, employer feedback, etc. I'm also a fan of peer evaluations.

It is, to be sure, easier to measure imputs than outputs. But to simply say that measuring outcomes is too difficult is not acceptable, and our students deserve better. From the individual teacher to the school district and school board, everyone must be accountable.


*It would be interesting to collect student evaluations at the 10 year reunion.

Inspector
04-06-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm assuming that we're supposed to exterminate students then flush them down the toilet.

Check out the new Kohler toilets. They have a really large capacity.

I can't even imagine the mess the roter rooter man would make if one of those little buggers caused a clog.

Ericgoodchief
04-06-2011, 03:17 PM
$80,000 a year says it all.

no family mentioned.

NewChief
04-07-2011, 05:28 AM
Many things in the world are difficult to measure and quantify, but I can't thing of anything more important than education.

Some outcomes seem easy to measure, can a 9th grader do simple math, can a highschool student read, etc. I think we all know it when we see it really good or really bad. Those soft impacts work both ways. I still remember in 4th grade how evident which students had which teacher for 3rd grade. Looking back, I'm certain every teacher in the building knew one of the 3rd grade teachers was substandard.

I've had three thoughts on this.

1) Move the fed back out of the education business. Either send the tax dollars back to the states in the form of block grants, tax reduction or some other format. I would also like to see the reduction of mega-districts (that may be a Kansas problem). There would not be a need for the NCLB stick if local parents and school boards were making decisions based on points 2 & 3.



While I appreciate and understand the reasoning behind national standards, I've also started to dislike the DoE. The main reason is that there's a complete hoodwink of the American people underway involving the DoE, with teachers playing the role of scapegoat. Education has become a porkulus project, and the ones reaping the rewards are the testing companies and reform industry. They create the tests, they lobby to get the laws passed that require districts make progress on those tests, then they create the "programs" (computerized, books, curriculum, etc..) to sell to districts to help those districts pass the tests. Meanwhile, they have their think tanks and talking heads bombard the public with messages that the public education system is sick (and I'm not saying that it doesn't need improvement, because it does), and the cure is to invest in the "reform" that they're selling. People who stand in the way are unionized obstructionists who just prefer the status quo and don't care if our students succeed or not. Most teachers I know actually are interested in what's good for students. They really are. They also have the benefit (thought sometimes it might be a detriment) of actually working in education and having a working knowledge of what that involves (which is more than can be said for many of the reformers out there).


2) States should have some standardized skill testing. Both as a means of identifying individual student progress, and to determine if the teachers and schools are meeting baselines. There should be a standardized graduation test.


I don't really have a problem with this. At my school, I'm pushing for students having to complete a culminating project of some type involving a thesis and public defense. I'm, generally, in favor of performance-based assessments over standardized tests, just because I find standardized tests to be poor indicators of success (my wife is a horrible test taker, but she is extremely successful in her field). The problem is that performance assessments don't represent an easily-quantifiable measure of growth.


3) Include outside sources in school district performance evaluations, parent reviews, student evaluations*, college admissions & trade certifications, graduation rates, employer feedback, etc. I'm also a fan of peer evaluations.


Totally agree with this. Partnership with community and parents is one of the major pushes we're seeing in education at the moment, and it's one with which I agree. Most theorists are encouraging us to move education beyond the school. In my culminating project idea above, there would be a requirement that the learning be tied into the world outside the school, whether that's through a service project or some kind of apprenticeship.


It is, to be sure, easier to measure imputs than outputs. But to simply say that measuring outcomes is too difficult is not acceptable, and our students deserve better. From the individual teacher to the school district and school board, everyone must be accountable.


I'm all for accountability and improvement. I'm just not sure that we're going to see it with the current politically-charged "reform" movement that we're experiencing. The worst thing, to me, is that both sides (Dem and Republican) both seem to be on the same page at this point in time. In my opinion, they're not even reading the right book.

*It would be interesting to collect student evaluations at the 10 year reunion.[/QUOTE]

durtyrute
04-07-2011, 10:19 AM
More power to him

NewChief
04-11-2011, 04:21 PM
This seemed like something of a continuation of the education discussion in this thread:

http://bertmaes.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/why-is-education-in-finland-that-good-10-reform-principles-behind-the-success/

Students from Finland outperform peers in 43 other nations – including the United States, Germany and Japan – in mathematics, science and reading skills. Finland is also ranked top in economic competitiveness.

The performance of this small and remote European country springs directly from education policies set in motion 40 years ago, according to the World Bank in its report “Policy Development and Reform Principles of Basic and Secondary Education in Finland since 1968.”

A summary:

Explaining the excellence of the schools in Finland is extremely complex. They have beautiful school buildings, well-trained teachers, state-of-the-art technology any fancy textbooks, but that doesn’t explain everything. I will not present an exhaustive or exclusive explanation for Finland’s success, but 10 CHARACTERISTICS MAY BE HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND:

* (1) When Finnish kids turn 7 years old they go into compulsory primary school during nine years. All kids start at the same level, no matter what socio-economic background they have. They learn the basic knowledge, skills and attitudes of lifelong learning, which is consistently paying off with better academic achievement in later grades. These primary schools are places where playing and learning are combined with alternative pedagogic approaches, rather than mere instructional institutions.
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* (2) All teachers are prepared in academic universities. Teachers are highly respected and appreciated in Finland, partly because all teachers need a master’s degree to qualify for a permanent job. And the selection is tough: only 10% of the 5000 applicants each year are accepted to the faculties of education in Finnish universities. Finland improved its public education system not by privatizing its schools or constantly testing its students, but by strengthening the education profession and investing in teacher preparation and support. Their high level knowledge and skills makes that Finnish teachers

1. can have considerable independence in the classroom to choose their preferred appropriate pedagogical methods;
2. are very willing to continuously update their professional skills via post-graduate studies;
3. are more willing to work on themselves, are open to new ideas and developed broader perspectives (I refer slightly to the article: MBAs Make Better CEOs… But Why?);
4. are eager to be involved into the school development processes in their own schools as well as in national and international projects.
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* (3) Since the 1960s political authorities always have seen education as the key to survive and thrive in an increasingly competitive world. All governments, from left to right have respected over the past 4 decades, that economic growth is the primary goal, with education as the critical driver (according to some researchers, education explains 25% of Finland’s growth): “Investment in people is the best investment”. To be competitive, the governments concluded, Finland has to substantially boost investments in education and research to foster innovation and cutting-edge development.
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* (4) Because the central government ensured sustainable funding to ensure FREE education for all, i.e. took care of ALL costs of tuition, warm school meals, learning materials, text books, transportation, new equipment, new facilities, student counseling, etc, the teachers are able to focus on teaching and learning, and bringing new ideas and practices in schools.
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* (5) There are no mandatory tests or exams; except for the nationwide National Matriculation Examination, in mother tongue, foreign language, mathematics and social/natural sciences, at the end of the upper-secondary school (from 17-19-year-old). Teachers make their own assessment tests, not quoting numeric grades, but using descriptive feedback, no longer comparing students with one another. This helped teachers and students focusing on learning in a fear-free environment, in which creativity and risk-taking are encouraged. Teachers have more real freedom in time planning when they do not need have to focus on annual tests or exams.
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* (6) Trusting the schools and teachers is a common feature in Finnish schools. Schools receive full autonomy in developing the daily delivery of education services. The ministry of education always believed that teachers, together with principals, parents and their communities know how to provide the best possible education for their children and youth. Except for guidelines for learning goals and assessment criteria, The National Board of Education (taking care of curriculum development, evaluation of education and professional support for teachers) doesn’t dictate lesson plans or standardized tests. School can plan their own curricula to reflect local concerns.
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* (7) For Manufacturing Education: In higher education, Finland offers university level studies or the polytechnics insitutions. The polytechnic system was the focal point of education policies in Finland during the 1990s and the top priority for regional development. There is a wide consensus on increasing technology, environmental sciences and entrepreneurship education – all of which seem to contribute positively to economic development and growth. As a result regional support networks are developed to help schools and teachers to adopt new technology in education and incorporate technology into classrooms.
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* (8) Building upon the expertise of local players, whose experience, opinions and abilities allowed them to indicate the best ways forward. The teacher unions and the educators themselves have always had the opportunity to be heard, to help crafting a blueprint of the reforms.

1. The key to get their commitment and support was tapping into and welcoming their expertise as professionals in laying the groundwork of reform. Expert committees of teachers, union representatives, university researchers, textbook authors and government officials designed the new frameworks, hashing out their differences and using each other’s valuable and varied expertise.
2. Another key was reassuring teachers would not lose employment security and salaries. Before the reforms even commenced the teacher trade organization achieved this in negotiating higher teacher compensation for the extra more demanding work.
3. Also experiments and pilot programs in developing curriculum reforms have helped ease concerns and win the teachers’ professional commitment. All experimental projects, coming from bottom-up as well, were monitored by university researchers, bringing a consistent culture of innovation in the Finnish education system.
4. Education reform could only have proceeded if it gave the teachers a way to maintain their pedagogical freedom, creativity and sense of professional responsibility, by allowing them to choose textbooks and learning materials, and to determine the best way to cover the curriculum.
5. The execution of new curricula, learning materials and new instructional methods was always carefully planned, province by province. Provincial Offices approved the plans from every municipality. The switch to a new reform was also guided by in-service training by a network of national level instructors.
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* (9) Political consensus and the capacity of policy makers to pursue reform: governments, trade unions and employers’ organizations form a tripartite in Finland, closely coordinating, communicating and heading to a common goal. In many countries the opposing-parties usually polarize debates and public opinion. Since the beginning of the 1970s until 1987 the ministry of education had two ministers from the main parties, requiring close political cooperation, resulting in workable solutions as both parties could endorse them. This proved to be the key factor behind the continuity of Finnish education policy. The parties detached from their populist political objectives and strategic maneuvers and began focusing on the subject-matter, on cooperating and acting together.
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Via the close partnership between the labor organizations and the governments, between the employees and the employers, in both planning and implementation stages, the teacher union changed from external political pressure group into a stakeholder in government decision-making, i.e. into one encompassing labor organization, that looks at the interest of the COMPLETE SOCIETY, just like the government. This key element in good quality of governance and public institutions turned out to be the driving force of education performance and economic competitiveness in Finland.

* (10) Regional development and networking: Today the most important component of providing good education is the management and leadership skills of local political authorities, experts and school principals (carefully selected for their understanding of education development, their experience in teacher-education and their solid proven management skills). The key in the educational reforms was ‘how to find ways to help schools and teachers come together and share what they have learned about productive teaching techniques and effective schools’. The result was the creation of multi-level, professional learning communities of schools sharing locally tested practices and enriching ideas, and matching the needs for local economic development.

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