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View Full Version : Chiefs Should NOT Draft a Tackle at #21 UNLESS He Can Get Open and Catch Passes


Count Zarth
04-03-2011, 11:10 AM
Excellent post on AP. I've posted excerpts.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/3/20/2062250/chiefs-should-not-draft-a-tackle-at-21-unless-he-can-get-open-and

Barry Richardson performed exceptionally well as a “road grader” as the Chiefs ranked 2nd in the NFL in rushes over right end (outside the tackle where Richardson has to block his man to the inside). What more could we ask for?

Only St. Louis with former #2 OVERALL PICK Jason Smith at right tackle (chosen right before Tyson Jackson in 2009 and failed as a left tackle so was kicked over to the right side by last year’s 2nd round pick Rodger Saffold who had a GREAT rookie year) ran better over right end than did the Chiefs.

Since the Chiefs ran the ball so much, I wondered if our raw sacks allowed total might have been artificially low because Cassel didn’t drop back to pass as often as most. What I discovered is that the Chiefs were sacked 6.7% of the time that Cassel (or Croyle against SD) dropped back to pass (32 sacks/475 pass attempts).

The best in the NFL were the Indianapolis Colts where Peyton Manning was sacked on only 2.3% of his pass attempts (Archie Manning must have taught his boys to get rid of the ball quickly because Eli Manning was second with 2.9%). The worst in the NFL were the Chicago Bears where Jay Cutler was sacked an incredible 12% of the time he dropped back to pass.


The Chiefs sacks/per pass attempt percentage was in the upper half of the NFL with some other comparisons being:


Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers = 7%

AFC Champion Pittsburgh Steelers = 9%

San Diego Chargers = 7%

Cleveland Browns (with Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas) = 7.5%

Miami Dolphins (with #1 overall pick and Pro Bowl left tackle Jake Long) = 6.8%

Baltimore Ravens (with “Blind Side” hero Michael Oher at left tackle) = 8.1%

St. Louis Rams (with rookie left tackle star Rodger Saffold) = 5.8%

Atlanta Falcons (with last year’s worst left tackle Sam Baker chosen after Branden Albert in 2008) = 4%

New England Patriots = 4.9%

Houston Texans (tied with Chiefs at 32 sacks but more pass attempts) = 5.5%


So I looked next at the Chiefs linemen individually to uncover who gave up how many sacks. Here are the attributable sack totals for each Chiefs lineman in 2010 (doesn’t add up to 32 sacks because some sacks can’t be attributed to one or two players, some sacks are surrendered by non-starters where stats are unavailable and most importantly, some sacks are attributed to the quarterback for holding the ball too long, but more on that in a moment):

Barry Richardson - 5 sacks

(1st round Packers pick Bulaga had 11! DEN Harris, who I consider an upgrade to Richardson had 3.5, BAL Yanda had 6, PIT Flozell Adams had 6.5, STL Smith had 4, ATL Clabo had 5, NO Stinchcomb had 7)

So where are the other 14 sacks? I found another excellent source where someone had studied every sack that happened in 2010 and timed how many of them happened in less than 3 seconds and how many happened on plays that lasted longer than 3 seconds. 3 seconds is considered to be the longest a quarterback should hold the ball before throwing it to a receiver or throwing it away.

Guess how many Chiefs sacks happened after 3 seconds thereby being “charged” to the quarterback? FOURTEEN. That’s right, according to this source, Matt Cassel held the ball for more than three seconds and was sacked 14 times which represents 44% of the sacks surrendered by the Chiefs in 2010.


This was the FOURTH WORST PERCENTAGE in the NFL meaning that only three quarterbacks (Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger and Joe Flacco) were responsible for a larger percentage of their team sacks allowed total that Matt Cassel (Flacco was at 63%!!!!)

BigCatDaddy
04-03-2011, 11:23 AM
100% agree. The need for a OT on this team is greatly exaggerated.

Easy 6
04-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Ditto. Its the interior thats on its last legs.

milkman
04-03-2011, 11:34 AM
While I agree with the end conclusion, that OT is not a huge need, I have always believed stats mean jack.

There are too many variables with stats.

Finding a replacement for Richardson or moving Albert to another spot along the line is not a pressing need, but the fact is, they are not performing up to their potential, and if the value is there at OT in the draft, then it's a pick you have to seriously consider.

pr_capone
04-03-2011, 11:35 AM
100% agree. The need for a OT on this team is greatly exaggerated.

We don't NEED an OT at the moment. We are hemorrhaging at Center.

I we are not looking at C between 2-4 I'm gonna be seriously upset. We need a guy who can come in and start from day 1. That means he will likely be a high round pick.

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-03-2011, 11:36 AM
Nice find, however this will bring Sac in furiously spinning like a top.

Bump
04-03-2011, 11:41 AM
WE SHOULD NOT DRAFT A WR UNLESS HE CAN THROW THE BALL TOO

OnTheWarpath58
04-03-2011, 12:00 PM
Guess how many Chiefs sacks happened after 3 seconds thereby being “charged” to the quarterback? FOURTEEN. That’s right, according to this source, Matt Cassel held the ball for more than three seconds and was sacked 14 times which represents 44% of the sacks surrendered by the Chiefs in 2010.


This was the FOURTH WORST PERCENTAGE in the NFL meaning that only three quarterbacks (Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger and Joe Flacco) were responsible for a larger percentage of their team sacks allowed total that Matt Cassel (Flacco was at 63%!!!!)

No one here should be shocked by this. Some of us have been banging this drum since the trade went down.

Cassel makes our OL look way worse than it actually is.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-03-2011, 12:04 PM
It's all on Albert/Saccopoo.

DeezNutz
04-03-2011, 12:08 PM
Albert was at his best when he took snaps at center. /Sac

the Talking Can
04-03-2011, 01:07 PM
spot on


we need a WR and NT way more than a tackle.....really really hope everything sorts out so we can pick up a FA WR....

dannybcaitlyn
04-03-2011, 01:33 PM
We'll take pouncey with the pick.

Okie_Apparition
04-03-2011, 04:38 PM
Joe Flacco, oh shit...Zorn

JASONSAUTO
04-03-2011, 04:48 PM
We'll take pouncey with the pick.

Please no
Posted via Mobile Device

Nightfyre
04-03-2011, 05:52 PM
Blaming the receivers is a joke. Cassel can't go through his progression in a timely manner and his release is slow.

This is exactly why we need to find a QB who can:
1) Read the defense before the play and adjust the play at the LOS accordingly
2) Assess the coverage downfield as it unfolds, while understanding the pressure package
3) Go through the progression decisively
4) Deliver the ball with a fast release
5) Throw accurately with sufficient speed

milkman
04-03-2011, 06:03 PM
Blaming the receivers is a joke. Cassel can't go through his progression in a timely manner and his release is slow.

This is exactly why we need to find a QB who can:
1) Read the defense before the play and adjust the play at the LOS accordingly
2) Assess the coverage downfield as it unfolds, while understanding the pressure package
3) Go through the progression decisively
4) Deliver the ball with a fast release
5) Throw accurately with sufficient speed

Cassel is certainly limited in his ability to read defenses, but he is also a victim of a piss poor group of receivers.

I expect that Moeaki will improve at route running and getting open, offering a reliable and athletic release valve.

Cassel's reading abilities have improved over time, but I'm not sure that he hasn't reached his ceiling.

We better hope he hasn't, because I just don't see a change coming soon.

Dave Lane
04-04-2011, 06:39 AM
I have hope for Zorn taking Cassel to legitimate Pro Bowl status.

durtyrute
04-04-2011, 07:21 AM
Blaming the receivers is a joke. Cassel can't go through his progression in a timely manner and his release is slow.

This is exactly why we need to find a QB who can:
1) Read the defense before the play and adjust the play at the LOS accordingly
2) Assess the coverage downfield as it unfolds, while understanding the pressure package
3) Go through the progression decisively
4) Deliver the ball with a fast release
5) Throw accurately with sufficient speed

This, but even IF we draft a QB and IF he outshines Cassel in preseason, Cassel will still be our starting QB next year

Chiefnj2
04-04-2011, 07:22 AM
Blaming the receivers is a joke.

They signed a guy off the street to START IN THE PLAYOFFS.

The receivers are a joke.

SNR
04-04-2011, 08:04 AM
Guys, we have Dexter McCluster to play LT. What's everybody worried about? /Sac

BossChief
04-04-2011, 08:05 AM
I have hope for Zorn taking Cassel to legitimate Pro Bowl status.

This

That was a GREAT hire IMO.

spanky 52
04-04-2011, 09:09 AM
It won't hurt having Zorn coaching Cassel. More so I look forward to having him groom whatever young QB the Chief's draft this year. At least I'm hoping they'll draft one.

Easy 6
04-05-2011, 10:37 AM
More so I look forward to having him groom whatever young QB the Chief's draft this year. At least I'm hoping they'll draft one.

Dream on dude, no way Pioli admits defeat yet.

Cassel is the Chiefs QB.

SNR
04-05-2011, 10:41 AM
It won't hurt having Zorn coaching Cassel. More so I look forward to having him groom whatever young QB the Chief's draft this year. At least I'm hoping they'll draft one.Can I just say I hate how people use the word "groom" when they're talking about coaching QBs?

It's idiotic, cliched, and I want it dead. Now.

Pestilence
04-05-2011, 10:46 AM
Albert will improve when you get a fucking quality LG to play next to him. Waters is done. Move Lilja to LG and plug in Asomoah in at RG. Get a center in this years draft and a RT in the 5th-6th round range.

Easy 6
04-05-2011, 11:54 AM
but I'm not sure that he hasn't reached his ceiling.

My money says he probably has, he's gonna usually get us 10 maybe even 11 wins with a decent team around him, but once in the postseason his lack of pure physical ability is going to hurt.

Playoff defenses are going to be too good for him to overcome & even the weather is going to limit him, taking precious velocity off of his already soft throws.

I honestly think that even with better WR's, he's only going to get us a game or two into the playoffs.

I love the guys effort & toughness, but as Tina Turner once said...whats love got to do with it?

Bowser
04-05-2011, 12:25 PM
Albert will improve when you get a fucking quality LG to play next to him. Waters is done. Move Lilja to LG and plug in Asomoah in at RG. Get a center in this years draft and a RT in the 5th-6th round range.

I'm down with that.

And on the QB front, is there any reasonable chance Andy Dalton lasts until the fourth, or am I pipe dreaming, here.....

Coogs
04-05-2011, 12:28 PM
My money says he probably has, he's gonna usually get us 10 maybe even 11 wins with a decent team around him, but once in the postseason his lack of pure physical ability is going to hurt.

Playoff defenses are going to be too good for him to overcome & even the weather is going to limit him, taking precious velocity off of his already soft throws.

I honestly think that even with better WR's, he's only going to get us a game or two into the playoffs.

It is going to be interesting. This past season, he was taught to throw the ball away under the first sign of pressure, and not take the sack. And for the most part, the Chiefs were successful using that philosophy. But the Raiders...twice... and the Ravens exposed that philosophy big time. When facing a deficit, we were forced to abandon that plan in order to try and win the football game. Interceptions followed that included easy pick 6's.

Pestilence
04-05-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm down with that.

And on the QB front, is there any reasonable chance Andy Dalton lasts until the fourth, or am I pipe dreaming, here.....

You're pipe dreaming. I see Dalton going in the 3rd round.....MAYBE low 2nd if someone wants him bad enough.

Bewbies
04-05-2011, 08:13 PM
Some of the guys on twitter, I think it was Mort, think Dalton is going to go in the late 1st round.

BossChief
04-05-2011, 08:35 PM
Ya know, this is shaping up to be a pretty good quarterback class out of what wasnt really supposed to be as before this college football season was supposed to feature Locker, Luck and Mallett and Luck decided to stay in school and Locker and Malletts stock had dropped considerably.

Gabbert
Newton
Stanzi
Dalton
Caepernick
Locker
Ponder
Mallett
Enderle

Thats 9 pretty good prospects that each has a chance to grow into a starters role.

Hog Farmer
04-10-2011, 06:07 AM
I have hope for Zorn taking Ricky Stanzi,The Chiefs 2011 4th rd pick, to legitimate Pro Bowl status.


FYP

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2011, 07:31 AM
Ya know, this is shaping up to be a pretty good quarterback class out of what wasnt really supposed to be as before this college football season was supposed to feature Locker, Luck and Mallett and Luck decided to stay in school and Locker and Malletts stock had dropped considerably.

Gabbert
Newton
Stanzi
Dalton
Caepernick
Locker
Ponder
Mallett
Enderle

Thats 9 pretty good prospects that each has a chance to grow into a starters role.

In all honesty, IMO if KC is going to pick a QB it will most likely be Stanzi IMO because of the Ferentz/Pioli connection.

milkman
04-10-2011, 07:36 AM
That Pioli/Ferentz connection has just been a pipeline since Pioli took the Chiefs job.

Wilson8
04-10-2011, 09:35 AM
I am totally convinced that the Chiefs will draft a QB this year. I see no way they bring back Croyle which really leaves them with no real backup. They have shown too much interest in an assortment of different QB draft possibilities to not have the QB position on the draft board. I think it just depend on how the draft picks fall as to which one we get. Stanzi could be the one later in the draft, if we haven't picked one before then.

Although wide receiver is a critical need, the Chiefs might go with a free agent to get our second starting WR and draft another WR later in the draft.

So in response to the original thread story, if OT is the best player available at 21, he can anchor the line for many years to come, and he fits the character requirement, then I think the Chiefs should draft them.

Chiefnj2
04-10-2011, 09:56 AM
In all honesty, IMO if KC is going to pick a QB it will most likely be Stanzi IMO because of the Ferentz/Pioli connection.

The Chiefs are definitely taking Bulaga.

SNR
04-10-2011, 10:10 AM
That Pioli/Ferentz connection has just been a pipeline since Pioli took the Chiefs job.And yet if the Chiefs take even a single Iowa player in the entire career of Pioli with the Chiefs, it's going to explode into something much worse than it ever was before.

Wilson8
04-10-2011, 10:55 AM
And yet if the Chiefs take even a single Iowa player in the entire career of Pioli with the Chiefs, it's going to explode into something much worse than it ever was before.

Too late, it has already been done...Tony Moeaki...that's turning out pretty good so far.

SNR
04-10-2011, 11:00 AM
Too late, it has already been done...Tony Moeaki...that's turning out pretty good so far.:doh!: Shit, forgot about him. Must be the inherent involuntary reaction to the Pioli/Ferentz connection

Wilson8
04-10-2011, 11:27 AM
That makes me think...I wonder what school has the most NFL players and then what school has the most NFL starters?

Without doing the research, I'm going to say Miami U, Texas, Ohio State, and Florida. But I think Iowa would be in the top 12.

If anybody wants to look it up...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/college

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-10-2011, 11:29 AM
:doh!: Shit, forgot about him. Must be the inherent involuntary reaction to the Pioli/Ferentz connection

There was quite a bit of butthurt over the selection.

Chiefshrink
04-10-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm down with that.

And on the QB front, is there any reasonable chance Andy Dalton lasts until the fourth, or am I pipe dreaming, here.....

I think you are stroking your pipe:p I hope he will be around as well but I doubt it.

Wilson8
04-10-2011, 11:35 AM
I didn't object to the Iowa connection but the past injury problem made me think it was a big risk.

On the other thing I was writing about concerning players in the NFL, LSU might have the most players.

KC has certainly gone shopping there.

Hog Farmer
04-10-2011, 11:39 AM
:doh!: Shit, forgot about him. Must be the inherent involuntary reaction to the Pioli/Ferentz connection


That's another reason I think Pioli will take Stanzi, because of Moeaki.

Wilson8
04-10-2011, 11:57 AM
From the thread on KC visitors/interest we have the following list.
1. Colin Kaepernik QB Nevada Rd 1 - 2
2. Andy Dalton QB TCU Rd 2 - 3
3. Pat Devlin QB Delaware Rd 4 – 5
4. Nathan Enderle QB Idaho Rd 7
5. T.J. Yates QB North Carolina 7 - FA

I did not see Rick Stanzi on the list, but a lot of people have said Stanzi would be a possibility for the Chiefs.

If Colin Kaepernick fell to the Chiefs in the 2nd, I could see that being a value pick.

ChiefsCountry
04-10-2011, 12:22 PM
I think it will be Enderlee.

SNR
04-10-2011, 12:25 PM
From the thread on KC visitors/interest we have the following list.
1. Colin Kaepernik QB Nevada Rd 1 - 2
2. Andy Dalton QB TCU Rd 2 - 3
3. Pat Devlin QB Delaware Rd 4 – 5
4. Nathan Enderle QB Idaho Rd 7
5. T.J. Yates QB North Carolina 7 - FA

I did not see Rick Stanzi on the list, but a lot of people have said Stanzi would be a possibility for the Chiefs.

If Colin Kaepernick fell to the Chiefs in the 2nd, I could see that being a value pick.Kaepernick won't fall to us in the 2nd. Too many teams in the early-mid first round need a QB and won't take one when Newton/Gabbert/Locker come off the board. The top of the 2nd round will be when those guys are taken.

Hog Farmer
04-10-2011, 01:29 PM
From the thread on KC visitors/interest we have the following list.
1. Colin Kaepernik QB Nevada Rd 1 - 2
2. Andy Dalton QB TCU Rd 2 - 3
3. Pat Devlin QB Delaware Rd 4 – 5
4. Nathan Enderle QB Idaho Rd 7
5. T.J. Yates QB North Carolina 7 - FA

I did not see Rick Stanzi on the list, but a lot of people have said Stanzi would be a possibility for the Chiefs.

If Colin Kaepernick fell to the Chiefs in the 2nd, I could see that being a value pick.

I'm thinkin Stanzi is not on the visit list so they don't tip their hand. Stanzi has probably already been brought in under high security in the middle of the night and told to keep his trap shut.

Sweet Daddy Hate
04-10-2011, 02:43 PM
The question is mute:

Ass Hattle will destroy us all in the end.

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2011, 04:37 PM
The question is mute:

Ass Hattle will destroy us all in the end.

Personally, I'd rather want Dalton or Kaepernick as the QB selection but with Ferrentz an Pioli friendship and ties it will probably be Stanzi IF they do draft a QB

milkman
04-10-2011, 08:38 PM
Personally, I'd rather want Dalton or Kaepernick as the QB selection but with Ferrentz an Pioli friendship and ties it will probably be Stanzi IF they do draft a QB

I am still waitng for you to say something that doesn't come straight out of your ass.

After 10+ years, I should just give up.

Easy 6
04-10-2011, 09:50 PM
It is going to be interesting. This past season, he was taught to throw the ball away under the first sign of pressure, and not take the sack. And for the most part, the Chiefs were successful using that philosophy. But the Raiders...twice... and the Ravens exposed that philosophy big time. When facing a deficit, we were forced to abandon that plan in order to try and win the football game. Interceptions followed that included easy pick 6's.

Couldnt agree more with your take, playing paint by numbers & close to the vest at QB is only gonna get us so far.

For me, it literally comes down to the fact that Cassel doesnt have the pure arm, nor the Montana like accuracy & timing, to overcome it against the top D's at crunch time.

Still, i hope he doesnt read a word of any fandoms thoughts & proves me wrong, he has the reins for 2011(?) so what else to do but hope for an epiphany.

BossChief
04-10-2011, 10:15 PM
There is absolutely nothing we could learn from bringing Stanzi in predraft except to tip our hand. Anything Pioli wants to know about him, he can make a call to Kirk on to find out.

Stanzi fits every criteria of a Parcells tree quarterback and honestly, the only way I see us not taking him is if NE overdrafts him. I can assure you that anyone calling about Stanzi is getting a glowing review from Ferentz about him...he is telling people that Stanzi is a player that will do whatever you tell him to ( no matter what... in games and in practice/off the field) and will put the work in to develop into a solid pro.

Regarding the Parcells tree requirements...

1) must be a senior as you need time and maturity to develop into a good pro
2) must graduate because you want a guy that Is smart and finishes things
3) 3 year starter to make sure he isn't a one hit wonder and that he is used to being "the man" of his team that everyone believes in and that he has exibited leadership in his time.
4) at least 23 wins

Of the 7 quarterbacks that won titles in the 2000s, 5 of them met these criteria!

Wilson8
04-11-2011, 05:30 AM
From a story published yesterday on Rick Stanzi -

When watching tape from 2009 and 2010 you see him mature as a player. In ’09 he was not as poised and would force some throws causing turnovers. In 2010, you saw that he had control of the game. He was poised and patient and made good decisions. The difference in stats is telling. In 2009 he completed 56.5 percent of his passes and threw 17 touchdowns and 15 interceptions. In 2010 his completion percentage improved to 64 percent with 25 touchdowns and only 6 interceptions. That alone is very telling when you advise quarterbacks to stay in school. The more time a quarterback can get gaining playing experience and learn how to play and understand the game the better off he will be when he makes the jump to the NFL

The rest of the story is at -
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Breaking-down-Ricky-Stanzi.html

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-11-2011, 03:38 PM
I am still waitng for you to say something that doesn't come straight out of your ass.

After 10+ years, I should just give up.

ROFL

So, "the whispers" he hears are just farts?

Bewbies
04-11-2011, 03:51 PM
I'm not a big Stanzi fan, but he's the guy I think we're taking at QB this year. And make no mistake, we will draft a QB.....just not one that will ever start. :(

Pestilence
04-11-2011, 04:55 PM
I think it will be Enderle.

I'll take this.

Detoxing
04-11-2011, 05:18 PM
Who was it that Zorn was working out with? Was it Yates?

BossChief
04-12-2011, 12:11 AM
From a story published yesterday on Rick Stanzi -



The rest of the story is at -
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Breaking-down-Ricky-Stanzi.html

I didnt write that one either.

But its almost exactly what I have said many many times on here and got ridiculed for.

Like Ive said since the day I started talking about it in my Stanzi thread a few months ago...its the same as my takes on Moeaki last year predraft that got ridiculed and ended up being absolutely spot on.

Suck it, haters.

Fritz88
04-12-2011, 04:22 AM
I think we should just trade for Derek Anderson and groom Cassel under him for the next 4 years and a half.