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SLAG
04-12-2011, 12:41 PM
Yet another Job thread I know -

I dont want to get into peoples personal finances or religion or sexual behavior.. but I am curious as to this reply..

To preface this I will outright admit I'm lucky to have a job and that it pays me to do what I do.... with that said I have not been very happy as of late since my current "promotion" - it was more of a lateral shift any way.. but...

I have been looking for similar jobs and open positions for a few weeks now - a couple of potentials but nothing solid as of yet....

I have yet to apply to our biggest competitor, and I'm wondering if I should.

I guess I dont know why I even have qualms about doing it in the first place; and we have hired from them on more than one occasion.

just the idea of doing it makes me think of a player leaving the Chiefs to play for the Fade or the donks...Just not cool...

On top of all of this I have been seeing business and work as a whole in a different way - I WANT to be my own boss - own my own companies and really be in full control of my life... I just don't know where to start... there is a switch on my brain that has been activated that wont shut off... I am trying to look for product /business opportunities everywhere I go... I can't help it..

Anyway thats enough rambling from me, What say you CP?

Spott
04-12-2011, 12:46 PM
No reason not to. If you work for a big company, they would lay you off in a heartbeat to remain "competive" with that other company.

MIAdragon
04-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Yes, you need to look out for YOU. You don't think your current company would replace you with someone from the other company if it suit them better?

SLAG
04-12-2011, 12:48 PM
No reason not to. If you work for a big company, they would lay you off in a heartbeat to remain "competive" with that other company.

Not a large company -

It has grown quite a bit since I have been with them - they are getting bigger and are gaining a large company mentality, something that is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth since I know how things use to be

Rain Man
04-12-2011, 12:49 PM
At a big company it's probably no big deal. At a small company, you should probably only do it if you really don't like your current employer, because otherwise it'll decrease your job satisfaction when you hear them being bashed and worked against at your new job.

Brock
04-12-2011, 12:50 PM
Company loyalty.....sheeeeeyit.

loochy
04-12-2011, 12:51 PM
Of course I would. In fact, I would prefer that.

Mile High Mania
04-12-2011, 12:52 PM
You have to do what is in the best interests for you and your family. Always remember to keep your bridges in tact though... don't scorch earth on the way out.

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 12:53 PM
Company loyalty.....sheeeeeyit.

This.

KC Dan
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
No way, I am having way to much fun/satisfaction slowing taking away their market share. They used to have 75% of the W-W market and we had 20%. Its now down to 49%-49% with a couple of other sluggos fighting for the other 2%....Love my bonuses. btw, their main factory was in Sendai!!!

Radar Chief
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
If you havenít signed a non-compete agreement fuckíem.

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
As a matter of fact, my company's biggest competitor would be on the top of my list of places to look unless I was trying to get out of that industry. You provide value to them.

HotRoute
04-12-2011, 12:55 PM
This is how I see it..... Get an offer from the competition and then let your boss know what price theyre willing to give you. Then if they don't match it then it's their fault you went elsewhere. Once they are competing for your services, you will get the most out of whatever company you end up with

Iowanian
04-12-2011, 01:04 PM
Be careful what you wish for......

I wouldn't blame you for looking out for number one on the outside.

that said, if you did it to my company, I'd burn your village and slaughter your goat herd.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Be careful what you wish for......

I wouldn't blame you for looking out for number one on the outside.

that said, if you did it to my company, I'd burn your village and slaughter your goat herd.

Yes this is what i'm worried about....

JTagg7754
04-12-2011, 01:12 PM
Yet another Job thread I know -

I dont want to get into peoples personal finances or religion or sexual behavior.. but I am curious as to this reply..

To preface this I will outright admit I'm lucky to have a job and that it pays me to do what I do.... with that said I have not been very happy as of late since my current "promotion" - it was more of a lateral shift any way.. but...

I have been looking for similar jobs and open positions for a few weeks now - a couple of potentials but nothing solid as of yet....

I have yet to apply to our biggest competitor, and I'm wondering if I should.

I guess I dont know why I even have qualms about doing it in the first place; and we have hired from them on more than one occasion.

just the idea of doing it makes me think of a player leaving the Chiefs to play for the Fade or the donks...Just not cool...

On top of all of this I have been seeing business and work as a whole in a different way - I WANT to be my own boss - own my own companies and really be in full control of my life... I just don't know where to start... there is a switch on my brain that has been activated that wont shut off... I am trying to look for product /business opportunities everywhere I go... I can't help it..

Anyway thats enough rambling from me, What say you CP?

If you're not happy w/ the way your company has been treating you and the pay is just as good, why the hell not?? Businesses think in this economy we should be lucky to have them but really don't think of the opposite side of things. We learn the structures, we learn how they tick, we learn what can build them and in return what can dismantle them.

If the opposition looks like greener fields, go graze young cattle!!!!

SLAG
04-12-2011, 01:13 PM
If you havenít signed a non-compete agreement ****íem.

Looks like I signed this:


5. AVOIDING CONFLICT OF OPPORTUNITIES

The Employee agrees to notify the Employer of all business opportunities relating to, or similar to, the Employerís current or prospective business opportunities. The Employee understands that, for the duration of employment, the Employee cannot pursue such opportunities in any way without the prior written consent of the Employer. Unless written consent is otherwise given by the Employer, the Employee further agrees to the following terms:

1. The Employee shall not compete with the present or anticipated business of the Employer, including but not limited to planning or orchestrating any similar or related business activities, either solely or in collaboration with others; and

2. The Employee shall not participate, either directly or indirectly, in any business activities that conflict with the interests of the Employer. Determination of such conflicting activities will rest exclusively upon the discretion of the Employer.

JTagg7754
04-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Yes this is what i'm worried about....

LOL does the company you work for now have no ethics??? hahahah if they even did anything to you, there's a lawsuit waiting to happen and after that, you'd essentially own your competitor.

I see nothing wrong w/ what you're doing and would not worry about the repercussions as long as you retraced everything so they have nothing they could potentially fuck you over w/.

Rain Man
04-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Yes this is what i'm worried about....

It really depends on the competitive environment. If it's abstract competition where you're both selling to the general public or you're dealing with walk-in customers, it's probably less of an issue. If your two companies bash heads trying to win clients or get shelf space or whatever, then the general presumption by your current employer will be that you're turncoating on them even if you aren't.

Recognize too that you'll have some stress because you likely have inside information about your current employer. Do you share that with the new one if you still like the old one? If you don't, are you being loyal to your new employer? If you do, are you violating the trust and good relationship that you had with your old employer? For that reason, I think you only do this if you really don't like your current employer and want to beat them up. (Again, though, it depends to a great extent on how the companies get customers and create revenue.)

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 01:15 PM
I would *love* to see them try and enforce that non-compete. For typical employees those things aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Otter
04-12-2011, 01:21 PM
Too many variables for a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. I'll treat my company as good as they treat me.

El Jefe
04-12-2011, 01:24 PM
I voted NO-For company loyalty. I work for a family owned business, there is no way I would work for a competitor. I have shares in this business, and the only way I am leaving is if the business closes or I choose not to stay here down the road. In the case of me not being at our shop I wouldn't stay in the automotive field.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 01:24 PM
It really depends on the competitive environment. If it's abstract competition where you're both selling to the general public or you're dealing with walk-in customers, it's probably less of an issue. If your two companies bash heads trying to win clients or get shelf space or whatever, then the general presumption by your current employer will be that you're turncoating on them even if you aren't.

Recognize too that you'll have some stress because you likely have inside information about your current employer. Do you share that with the new one if you still like the old one? If you don't, are you being loyal to your new employer? If you do, are you violating the trust and good relationship that you had with your old employer? For that reason, I think you only do this if you really don't like your current employer and want to beat them up. (Again, though, it depends to a great extent on how the companies get customers and create revenue.)


Its a little of both - We both sell to the "general public" and have "walk-in" customers - but at the same time for large potential clients we are competing head to head in RFP's

Mr. Laz
04-12-2011, 01:26 PM
Unless you have a specific reason to be loyal to your existing company, i don't see why not. But be careful your current company doesn't find out before you decide to leave or not.

Rain Man
04-12-2011, 01:26 PM
Its a little of both - We both sell to the "general public" and have "walk-in" customers - but at the same time for large potential clients we are competing head to head in RFP's

A new company's not supposed to ask this, so hopefully they wouldn't. But if they asked you to give them tips on how to pry loose some of your old company's biggest customers, how would you feel about answering it?

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
04-12-2011, 01:30 PM
I might not go to our company's "biggest competitor", but that's because I work with some of the people and I hate the way the company treats them.

However, there is a huge in and outflow between defense contractors here in the D.C. area. One guy I work with has been with six companies in seven years and gotten a bump in pay everytime he jumps.

For me, it's probably not so much company loyalty (although I am pretty happy with my company) as it is inertia. As long as I have interesting work and they stay out of my knickers, there's not much to be gained by starting all over again with another company.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 01:34 PM
A new company's not supposed to ask this, so hopefully they wouldn't. But if they asked you to give them tips on how to pry loose some of your old company's biggest customers, how would you feel about answering it?

I really don't know - I don't think i'd like to be asked that.. but if it happened... I would probably be real vague and Ask them why they need my help to accomplish that goal

trndobrd
04-12-2011, 01:45 PM
Looks like I signed this:


Doesn't look like anything that would prohibit you from seeking employment elsewhere, just that you can't moonlight doing the same kind of work. You will want to have your entire employment contract looked at before you decide to jump ship.

Rain Man
04-12-2011, 01:47 PM
I really don't know - I don't think i'd like to be asked that.. but if it happened... I would probably be real vague and Ask them why they need my help to accomplish that goal

Like I said, they shouldn't ask you. But if they did and you responded like that, they probably wouldn't think that you were fully on their team.

I like to be a free-market guy, and it seems reasonable to jump to a competitor, but I do think there are complications to doing it that most people don't think about. Unless it's a big company where an individual isn't a bid difference-maker, there are personal elements involved that can get sticky.


Edit: oddly, I meant to type "big" instead of "bid", but my typo actually works better. What are the odds that a typo would actually improve a sentence? This may be a lifetime first for me.

Predarat
04-12-2011, 01:54 PM
Yes if it helped my career, they will cut people without hesitation.

HonestChieffan
04-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Doomed if your employer finds out....remember even competitors make connections and things are shared....

Iowanian
04-12-2011, 02:00 PM
"so slag, we're going to be competing against your current/former employer on the following 3projects this year. How do you think they'll approach them with their bids? Do you have any insight as to their approach to how they arrive at a price? What do you feel their strength of product or sales is versus ours? What do you feel their weakness on this type of work would be and how can we leverage that?"


These are some of the things I think you have to be prepared for if you jump ship.


If I'm bringing you in from a competitor, I absolutely want to know information that can help the success of my company.


When they check your internet history and notice a flurry of Monster dot com and hits on "employment opportunities" on rival websites, you're probably going to be job hunting anyway.

Bwana
04-12-2011, 02:03 PM
In the drop of a hat.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 02:07 PM
What I would really like to do is become an independent consultant for the product that both companies sell.... again becoming my own boss...

I just don't have any idea how/where to start

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 02:08 PM
What I would really like to do is become an independent consultant for the product that both companies sell.... again becoming my own boss...

I just don't have any idea how/where to start

That's where your non-compete will burn you.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 02:12 PM
That's where your non-compete will burn you.

Even if I resign?

vailpass
04-12-2011, 02:12 PM
That's where your non-compete will burn you.

Non-competes are hard as hell to enforce in court. In many cases they are intendedto scare an individual into thinking the terms will be enforced. The court leans far to the side of not inhibiting an individual's livelihood.

vailpass
04-12-2011, 02:13 PM
Even if I resign?

The terms you showed earlier apply only when you are their employee.
If in doubt obtain legal counsel rather than trusting a bunch of jack legged dandies on CP.

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 02:14 PM
Non-competes are hard as hell to enforce in court. In many cases they are intendedto scare an individual into thinking the terms will be enforced. The court leans far to the side of not inhibiting an individual's livelihood.

As I hear it that's true when you're talking about moving from one employer to another. However if you want to bail and then start a competing business that's a different animal.

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 02:17 PM
Even if I resign?

If that is the totality of your non-compete, that you can't moonlight, then you may be ok. But I would be surprised if there isn't more in there to cover you walking out with the customer list and opening your own shop.

If you're trying to do something that is ancillary to what they do (they only sell it, they don't service it, and you won't be selling it) then your best bet would be to just approach them lightly and say "I've been thinking about servicing this product".

CoMoChief
04-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Of course.....if it's worth it financially.

How's this any different than (on the other end) the company hires someone else over you?

It works both ways...if you're lucky to be in that kinda position.

vailpass
04-12-2011, 02:21 PM
As I hear it that's true when you're talking about moving from one employer to another. However if you want to bail and then start a competing business that's a different animal.

I can only speak for what I've seen. Had two friends who spun off from mega-corp to start their own SatCom consulting business. Mega-corp sent letters then took them to court. Ruling on the bench was that noncompete was overly restrictive in it's scope of limitations and sought to place an undue curb on the individual's rights to earn a living.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 02:21 PM
If that is the totality of your non-compete, that you can't moonlight, then you may be ok. But I would be surprised if there isn't more in there to cover you walking out with the customer list and opening your own shop.

If you're trying to do something that is ancillary to what they do (they only sell it, they don't service it, and you won't be selling it) then your best bet would be to just approach them lightly and say "I've been thinking about servicing this product".


They Do it all - They service it / train on it etc...

Essentially as a Consultant I would be a small competitor...

Radar Chief
04-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Non-competes are hard as hell to enforce in court. In many cases they are intendedto scare an individual into thinking the terms will be enforced. The court leans far to the side of not inhibiting an individual's livelihood.

Iíve always heard that also. Still donít think it would be a bad idea to consult a lawyer.

SLAG
04-12-2011, 02:24 PM
This is in the Handbook too

III-5: OUTSIDE EMPLOYMENT:
The Company recognizes that there may be instances when employees seek supplemental employment
opportunities. It is expected that outside employment will not interfere in any way with the employee’s
current position and responsibilities to the Company, and will adhere to the conflicts of interest policies
found in the Confidentiality Agreement (Appendix A).

Simplex3
04-12-2011, 02:24 PM
They Do it all - They service it / train on it etc...

Essentially as a Consultant I would be a small competitor...

As vailpass just said, you can still probably do it but there are likely to be court costs. Also if you lose you'll really be screwed. If you can find a way out that doesn't limit your ability to pursue business and gets something from them in writing you'd be best off. Something like "I won't work for any customers on the list you'll give me the day I leave without doing that work through you." I've done that arrangement before.

acesn8s
04-12-2011, 02:33 PM
My company's biggest competitor fired me when joie had just given birth. They sent us flowers on Friday and fired me on Monday. Now I am looking at advancing further with this company than the last one.

BigRedChief
04-12-2011, 02:38 PM
ROFL not unless I want to spend the rest of my life in Leavenworth

Radar Chief
04-12-2011, 02:41 PM
Kind of a shitty way to do things but you could get them to release you.
If they do that any non-compete agreement means nothing because they canít release you and keep you from finding gainful employment in your field of expertise.

bevischief
04-12-2011, 03:03 PM
Done once already. A big company could care less.

Stewie
04-12-2011, 03:08 PM
We've had three engineers go to direct competitors in the past five years. They had signed similar "competitive" agreements, but they weren't enforced and probably aren't enforceable. When they gave their notice and said where they were going they were immediately terminated, allowed to get their personal belongings and escorted out the door. One of those engineers came back about three months ago. BTW, my company is 5000+ employees.

Rain Man
04-12-2011, 03:20 PM
My company's biggest competitor fired me when joie had just given birth. They sent us flowers on Friday and fired me on Monday. Now I am looking at advancing further with this company than the last one.


Admittedly, we were all concerned about you reproducing.

cdcox
04-12-2011, 04:45 PM
"so slag, we're going to be competing against your current/former employer on the following 3projects this year. How do you think they'll approach them with their bids? Do you have any insight as to their approach to how they arrive at a price? What do you feel their strength of product or sales is versus ours? What do you feel their weakness on this type of work would be and how can we leverage that?"


These are some of the things I think you have to be prepared for if you jump ship.


If I'm bringing you in from a competitor, I absolutely want to know information that can help the success of my company.


When they check your internet history and notice a flurry of Monster dot com and hits on "employment opportunities" on rival websites, you're probably going to be job hunting anyway.

I would respond (either during the interview or if asked after I got the job):

If you hire me, it will be because I have a skill set that can help your company. I am very good at what I do and work very hard. If you hire me I will give you 110% to help this company be successful. However, any proprietary information I have about my former employer will remain exactly that: proprietary. In the same way, if I ever leave your company, any proprietary information that I learn about your company will remain confidential. If I am indiscreet with proprietary information about a past employer, how will you ever trust me with proprietary information about your company? I conduct business in an ethical manner and I hope you see that as another reason to hire me.

Adept Havelock
04-12-2011, 06:35 PM
Be careful what you wish for......

I wouldn't blame you for looking out for number one on the outside.

that said, if you did it to my company, I'd burn your village and slaughter your goat herd.

If you're going to that trouble, you really ought to sow the yards with salt and leave a nice tower of skulls on the front lawn while you are at it. It's a good message to send to the employees.

SLAG
04-15-2011, 11:58 AM
We've had three engineers go to direct competitors in the past five years. They had signed similar "competitive" agreements, but they weren't enforced and probably aren't enforceable. When they gave their notice and said where they were going they were immediately terminated, allowed to get their personal belongings and escorted out the door. One of those engineers came back about three months ago. BTW, my company is 5000+ employees.

Interesting...
What if they didn't tell the company where they were going

Hydrae
04-15-2011, 12:22 PM
I would respond (either during the interview or if asked after I got the job):

If you hire me, it will be because I have a skill set that can help your company. I am very good at what I do and work very hard. If you hire me I will give you 110% to help this company be successful. However, any proprietary information I have about my former employer will remain exactly that: proprietary. In the same way, if I ever leave your company, any proprietary information that I learn about your company will remain confidential. If I am indiscreet with proprietary information about a past employer, how will you ever trust me with proprietary information about your company? I conduct business in an ethical manner and I hope you see that as another reason to hire me.

Excellent response! :thumb:

Easy 6
04-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Would my company dump me straight on my ass if it suited their purposes?

You bet they would & turnabouts fair play.