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reschief
04-14-2011, 11:56 AM
Expect flurry of first-round draft trades

08:03 AM ET 04.14 | Stability at quarterback among teams picking in the back half of the draft is likely to directly affect the wheeling and dealing. Of the teams picking from 17-32 in the first round, the only team that really needs a quarterback is Seattle, which is picking 25th. The rest are all set, unless one of those teams plans to look for a quarterback of the future. The quarterback stability of the teams in those spots is why they are there. ... What that should do is set up what could be a wild ride at the back end of the first round, with a flurry of trades. The haves can make deals with the have-nots. "I still think as many as five quarterbacks go in the first round," an NFC general manager said. "You watch. Some of those guys will go late in the round when teams realize they won't all be there in the second, and they have to make moves to get them."

CBSSports.com

Since we're "set" at "quarterback" . . . what are the odds we trade down from 21 and pick up additional picks?

Pestilence
04-14-2011, 12:00 PM
The Dolphins would be an interesting situation. They pick at #15 and they need a QB. I think #15 is to high to take one of the other QBs outside of Gabbert and Newton. They don't have a 2nd round pick this year. They might be willing to part with their 1st in next years draft to move up into the latter part of the 1st round.

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 12:05 PM
The frequency of trades seems to have been increasing every year, so of course this wouldn't be surprising.

I don't know if they actually have been increasing or not, but it sure feels that way.

Unless we're raping the other team, I wouldn't wanna trade out of the first round.

reschief
04-14-2011, 12:10 PM
Pioli could start stacking picks . . . a.k.a. another example of the Patriots way, right? . . . but the Chiefs have so many needs it would be hard to be patient on acquiring what we need NOW - assuming there is a season.

BossChief
04-14-2011, 01:29 PM
Pioli could start stacking picks . . . a.k.a. another example of the Patriots way, right? . . . but the Chiefs have so many needs it would be hard to be patient on acquiring what we need NOW - assuming there is a season.IMO we are 4-5 quality players away from being a contender...not as far as you perceive things evidently.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 01:38 PM
IMO we are 4-5 quality players away from being a contender...not as far as you perceive things evidently.

QB
RB2
WR2
WR3
C
RT (possibly)
NT
DE opposite Dorsey
ILB
OLB


4-5 players away?

DeezNutz
04-14-2011, 01:41 PM
QB
RB2
WR2
WR3
C
RT (possibly)
NT
DE opposite Dorsey
ILB
OLB


4-5 players away?

I think we're two players away from really making noise, but these players are going to take a miracle to acquire: a franchise QB and another legit. WR.

Get the QB and everything else will work itself out a hell of a lot easier, but we don't seem to give a **** about this, for some strange reason.

ChiefsCountry
04-14-2011, 01:44 PM
Trading for Cassel and not taking Sanchez will haunt this team the rest of this decade.

Saccopoo
04-14-2011, 01:47 PM
QB
RB2
WR2
WR3
C
RT (possibly)
NT
DE opposite Dorsey
ILB
OLB


4-5 players away?

+
LT (Albert sucks - he's not an NFL caliber LT)
LG (Waters is done)
FB (Both of ours aren't very good)
DE (Dorsey's position, who, while better in 2010, isn't all that good)

13 guys who should be replaced.

I expect that we use one of our fifth rounders to trade up for a tight end to replace Pope.

DeezNutz
04-14-2011, 01:49 PM
DE (Dorsey's position, who, while better in 2010, isn't all that good)


:facepalm:

But what about when he lined up at LB?

Saccopoo
04-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Trading for Cassel and not taking Sanchez will haunt this team the rest of this decade.

C'mon...

Sanchez, in 2010, was the third worst quarterback in the league statistically, only eclipsing Derek Anderson and Chief's Planet's favorite son, Jimmy Clausen.

And that's playing behind a top flight offensive line, a solid running game and a top five defense.

What do you possibly think he'd have accomplished here that Cassel hasn't?

bsp4444
04-14-2011, 01:51 PM
Albert is not trash. He was the LT on a team that led the NFL in rushing. Can we upgrade, possibly, but we can definitely survive with him as a Left Tackle.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 01:53 PM
+
LT (Albert sucks - he's not an NFL caliber LT)
LG (Waters is done)
FB (Both of ours aren't very good)
DE (Dorsey's position, who, while better in 2010, isn't all that good)

13 guys who should be replaced.

I expect that we use one of our fifth rounders to trade up for a tight end to replace Pope.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match over Albert, but I think Asomoah will take care of your need at guard.

You don't need a great fullback to win a championship. Hell, you really don't even need a good one. I'm trying to think of the last SB champion to actually utilize the FB.

Dorsey is more than good enough at DE. Jackson isn't.

Regardless, we're a lot farther away than 4-5 players, as Boss suggests.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 01:54 PM
I think we're two players away from really making noise, but these players are going to take a miracle to acquire: a franchise QB and another legit. WR.

Get the QB and everything else will work itself out a hell of a lot easier, but we don't seem to give a **** about this, for some strange reason.

I think we would be much more competitive with those positions filled, but if the goal is to win championships, we need more, IMO.

bsp4444
04-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I believe he said 4-5 players from being a contender and he is right. 4-5 of the right players. We won 10 games last year, albeit with a soft schedule, but with a better pass rush (DT, OLB) we greatly improve our defense. With a WR, C, RT, we greatly improve our offense. Not that the draft will fall that way, but that would make us a hell of a problem for a lot of teams.

DeezNutz
04-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I think we would be much more competitive with those positions filled, but if the goal is to win championships, we need more, IMO.

AFC West championships? We're supposed to want more? You're obviously not a real Chiefs fan.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 02:00 PM
AFC West championships? We're supposed to want more? You're obviously not a real Chiefs fan.

LMAO

Saccopoo
04-14-2011, 02:02 PM
:facepalm:

But what about when he lined up at LB?

Just calls 'em as I sees 'em. Dorsey was better in 2010 than in 2009, but he was still invisible more often than not. He flashed some, but was often overwhelmed, particularly in the running game. The guy is not a five tech, period.

I know that people around here are still hopeful for those two first rounders that Carl and Herm picked in 2008, but neither have justified their lofty pick status with on the field production. Albert simply does not have the talent to play left tackle at this level and Dorsey is playing out of position in the wrong scheme. He was outplayed by Arena Football castoff Smith and Wallace Gilberry. And I understand that with only so many players available that sometimes you have to make the best of a bad situation, but it's time that both positions are seriously looked at for potential upgrades.

DeezNutz
04-14-2011, 02:06 PM
Just calls 'em as I sees 'em. Dorsey was better in 2010 than in 2009, but he was still invisible more often than not. He flashed some, but was often overwhelmed, particularly in the running game. The guy is not a five tech, period.

I know that people around here are still hopeful for those two first rounders that Carl and Herm picked in 2008, but neither have justified their lofty pick status with on the field production. Albert simply does not have the talent to play left tackle at this level and Dorsey is playing out of position in the wrong scheme. He was outplayed by Arena Football castoff Smith and Wallace Gilberry. And I understand that with only so many players available that sometimes you have to make the best of a bad situation, but it's time that both positions are seriously looked at for potential upgrades.

That's fine, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. When it comes to Dorsey, we have two very different views of this player.

Saccopoo
04-14-2011, 02:12 PM
Albert is not trash. He was the LT on a team that led the NFL in rushing. Can we upgrade, possibly, but we can definitely survive with him as a Left Tackle.

The Chiefs benefitted from a 2010 schedule that amazingly played directly to the strengths of the team.

If they don't upgrade the position this year, and we actually end up playing the 2011 year with the schedule as it is, I guarantee you that by the end of the season the vast majority of people here will be vociferously calling for his replacement.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 02:13 PM
The Chiefs benefitted from a 2010 schedule that amazingly played directly to the strengths of the team.

If they don't upgrade the position this year, and we actually end up playing the 2011 year with the schedule as it is, I guarantee you that by the end of the season the vast majority of people here will be vociferously calling for his replacement.

You're right, we really need to find Cassel's replacement.

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 02:15 PM
I think we're about 5-6 quality players away from being a contender.

C, WR, OLB, NT, RT, RB

Pestilence
04-14-2011, 02:16 PM
You don't need a great fullback to win a championship. Hell, you really don't even need a good one. I'm trying to think of the last SB champion to actually utilize the FB.


The Bucs?

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 02:17 PM
The Chiefs benefitted from a 2010 schedule that amazingly played directly to the strengths of the team.

If they don't upgrade the position this year, and we actually end up playing the 2011 year with the schedule as it is, I guarantee you that by the end of the season the vast majority of people here will be vociferously calling for his replacement.

God, a little dramatic aren't we? Yeah, Albert isn't that good, but he isn't that bad either. You're being a drama queen right now.

Pestilence
04-14-2011, 02:17 PM
You're right, we really need to find Cassel's replacement.

We've needed to find his replacement since the day that we traded for him.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 02:22 PM
The Bucs?

Without really thinking about it, probably.

the Talking Can
04-14-2011, 02:29 PM
a real NT, a quality #2 WR, and a young center would do wonders for this team....


no team in the league is 13 players away from contending, that's just ****ing stupid....most teams are 1 player away: the QB

our OL is good enough for the top flight QBs....problem is, we have Cassel...hence the feeling we that have to have great players at every single position on the field to make up for him...

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 02:33 PM
a real NT, a quality #2 WR, and a young center would do wonders for this team....


no team in the league is 13 players away from contending, that's just ****ing stupid....most teams are 1 player away: the QB

our OL is good enough for the top flight QBs....problem is, we have Cassel...hence the feeling we that have to have great players at every single position on the field to make up for him...

Excellent point.

the Talking Can
04-14-2011, 02:34 PM
and spare me the rap on Dorsey....guy is a complete ****ing stud

he plays next to bags of crap on a 3-4 DL...if here were next to a good NT, his qualitiy would be clear enough for even sackfobats to notice...


blows my mind we run a 3-4 and line up street trash year after year...they better find a god damn NT this year or they are bona fide hooties...

Bewbies
04-14-2011, 04:20 PM
In all honesty, we're a great QB from being a contender. Since we don't have a great QB we need a whole bunch of guys to get there.

Bewbies
04-14-2011, 04:21 PM
a real NT, a quality #2 WR, and a young center would do wonders for this team....


no team in the league is 13 players away from contending, that's just ****ing stupid....most teams are 1 player away: the QB

our OL is good enough for the top flight QBs....problem is, we have Cassel...hence the feeling we that have to have great players at every single position on the field to make up for him...

Ah, you beat me to the punch. Great post.

Chocolate Hog
04-14-2011, 06:11 PM
I think we have a nice rotation at D-end and I think Jackson is an alright player certainly not worth the #3 pick though. If we add a NT we're set on the line.

Marcellus
04-14-2011, 06:44 PM
We led the leauge in rushing and have one of the most explosive RBs in the leauge who people continually bitched didn't get enough carries, yet RB is on the list of most peoples needs.

What? BU RBs are a dime a dozen. All we need is to run JC more and let Jones back him up.

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 06:58 PM
We led the leauge in rushing and have one of the most explosive RBs in the leauge who people continually bitched didn't get enough carries, yet RB is on the list of most peoples needs.

What? BU RBs are a dime a dozen. All we need is to run JC more and let Jones back him up.

No.

Haley was clearly right about his approach with JC. His goal was keep him fresh so he could be as explosive as possible and it clearly worked. And you're right, Back up backs are a dime a dozen. But we're not looking for just another Back up. We need a back that can step in for JC and not miss a beat.

Our offense shouldn't change when a different back comes in place. Having JC on the field keeps the defense on its toes. Once he comes out, the D can breath a sigh of relief. We don't want that. When JC comes out, we need another back to step in and make the D say, "Oh ****"

This team will win games this season the same way they did last season. And right now, we only have one back on the roster worth a shit and it's debatable if he'd be as effective/durable for 350+ carries.

I love Charles as much as the next guy, but no one wants to see Haley Herm him to death.

This team needs a back and they WILL draft one. Just a matter of who.

BossChief
04-14-2011, 07:05 PM
Regardless, we're a lot farther away than 4-5 players, as Boss suggests.

a real NT, a quality #2 WR, and a young center would do wonders for this team....


no team in the league is 13 players away from contending, that's just ****ing stupid....most teams are 1 player away: the QB

our OL is good enough for the top flight QBs....problem is, we have Cassel...hence the feeling we that have to have great players at every single position on the field to make up for him...

Cassel/_______
Charles
Castillo/Cox
Bowe
_____
Moeaki
Albert
Lilja
________
Asamoah
Richardson/________

Dorsey
________
Smith/Jackson
Hali
Belcher
DJ
________/Studebaker
Flowers
Carr
Lewis
Superman


I count 3-4 for sure needs on this team that each would go a long long ways towards helping us get to the next step and three big ifs.

Add a nose guard to this defense and it makes EVERYONE on defense better and would round out one of the better 3-4 DLs in the league if Smith plays as well as he did and Jackson builds on what I saw as progress last year (though he will never live up to #3 billing and we all knew that as soon as the pick was made)

We add a guy that can compliment Hali in the pass rush while helping the safeties in coverage with tight ends and this defense has a chance to be one of the better ones in the league if we keep Crennel on staff for a couple more years.

I am starting to change my thoughts on Cassel a bit after the Zorn hiring. Matt did very well until the news got out about Charlie Weis and I think Zorn has enough experience and knowledge to help Cassel continue to progress into a guy we have a chance with. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point and hope for the best after seeing him showcase the ability to improve his game quite a bit in one year under Weis.

Instead, I think the offense could take the next step with adding a good young center to the line to help protect Cassel against bigger nose guards and to give us the ability to effectively run up the middle in short yardage situations. The other major need on offense is someone to compliment Moeaki and Bowe by being able to stretch the field and run great routes while being able to effectively block for the running game.

If handled as well as the last draft/free agency period, we could be in much better shape next year to play with the big boys.

...

All in all, the discussion about winning a championship ultimately is talking about if you think Cassel is capable of being that good once those pieces are there. I think he showed the ability to improve on a fairly good year but who knows how close to his ceiling he is?

After all the hatred for Cassel I have shown over the last couple years, this post should show how much I love the Zorn hiring.

AustinChief
04-14-2011, 07:08 PM
QB
RB2
WR2
WR3
C
RT (possibly)
NT
DE opposite Dorsey
ILB
OLB


4-5 players away?

5 is more realistic...

RB2, WR3, DE and ILB are not even close to being pressing needs... not saying they couldn't be upgraded... but those spots aren't holding us back like the others.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 07:15 PM
People have some serious reading comprehension.

IMO we are 4-5 quality players away from being a contender

To me, contender means championship.

If you just want to go 9-7 or 10-6 every year, maybe make the playoffs, maybe not, then the positions I mentioned don't need upgrading.

This team WILL NOT win a championship with the Cassel, Jackson or Belcher as full-time starters.

philfree
04-14-2011, 07:17 PM
I'd trade the 21st for a 2nd this year and a 1st next year. That be my draft day dream scenario. I want to stock pile picks every year like the Patties do. If Cassel lays and egg we gun for Luck and if Cassel is the man we trade and stock pile.


PhilFree:arrow:

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 07:18 PM
5 is more realistic...

RB2, WR3, DE and ILB are not even close to being pressing needs... not saying they couldn't be upgraded... but those spots aren't holding us back like the others.

RB2 is a pressing need if you don't believe the Chiefs should be giving Charles 350+ touches. Count me as a non believer.

AustinChief
04-14-2011, 07:22 PM
People have some serious reading comprehension.



To me, contender means championship.

If you just want to go 9-7 or 10-6 every year, maybe make the playoffs, maybe not, then the positions I mentioned don't need upgrading.

This team WILL NOT win a championship with the Cassel, Jackson or Belcher as full-time starters.

I beg to differ(Dilfer?), teams with bigger holes than those have won championships.

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 07:24 PM
I beg to differ(Dilfer?), teams with bigger holes than those have won championships.

I dont know man, those are pretty big fucking holes.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 07:24 PM
I beg to differ(Dilfer?), teams with bigger holes than those have won championships.

:facepalm:

Another guy hoping for lightning to strike instead of building a dynasty.

AustinChief
04-14-2011, 07:28 PM
:facepalm:

Another guy hoping for lightning to strike instead of building a dynasty.

No, I am not saying we SHOULDN'T upgrade those spots.. just that being Henny Penny about it isn't helpful either.

AustinChief
04-14-2011, 07:30 PM
I dont know man, those are pretty big fucking holes.

No they aren't.. they are weak spots for sure.. but they aren't HOLES like our total lack of NT or C or OLB or WR

AustinChief
04-14-2011, 07:32 PM
You don't have to have 35 ProBowl players to be a contender.

-King-
04-14-2011, 07:33 PM
C
WR2
NT
RT
LOLB

Those are the PRESSING needs. Those are the positions that need to be addressed ASAP. We don't know shit about Cassel anymore. We don't know if he really does suck or if he can play like he did in mid to late 2010 for the foreseeable future. We should know by the end of this year, but right now, we can't say that its NEED.

Detoxing
04-14-2011, 07:35 PM
No they aren't.. they are weak spots for sure.. but they aren't HOLES like our total lack of NT or C or OLB or WR

I count RB2 as a hole. how the **** are you gonna be a running team with only one (frail) back?

I dont agree with OTWP about WR3. I think Dexter can fill that void just fine.

I'm not gonna bag on Cassel. He is progressing. He did stuff last year I didn't think I'd ever see him do, so Ima hope he can continue to improve.

Even still, Holes at RB2 WR2 OLB C NT DE are pretty freaking hard to overcome when you have a marginal QB.

OnTheWarpath58
04-14-2011, 07:51 PM
I count RB2 as a hole. how the **** are you gonna be a running team with only one (frail) back?

Even still, Holes at RB2 WR2 OLB C NT DE are pretty freaking hard to overcome when you have a marginal QB.

This. Especially the bold.

BossChief
04-14-2011, 08:03 PM
:facepalm:

Another guy hoping for lightning to strike instead of building a dynasty.
Not at all.

I AM expecting this set of premier coaches to make the players we have play better than has been seen thus far due to the age of most of the players in question and their respective potential(s).

Richardson
Studebaker
Jackson
Tucker
Cassel

IMO we need our coaches to make solid players out of at least 2-3 of those guys for us to take the next step as a team.

If you want to count that as "hope" well, I guess thats your opinion but I think that asking for good coaches to get players under them to improve is expected and that all of those guys have shown the ability to play at a very high level for us at times...now what needs to happen is for them to develop consistency and that is what coaches like:

Zorn
Crennel
Haley
Muir (laugh all you want but the guy has been a pro coach longer than most of you have watched the game)

All have a track record of doing good things with the players they have coached in the past.

We fill 4 spots (minimum) through coaching up current players/free agency/drafted players and we are a repeat champ of the afc west...we fill 5 and we can probably win a playoff game...we fill 6 need spots with good players and we can beat anyone in the NFL.

The Bad Guy
04-14-2011, 08:09 PM
If we win one championship, I don't give a rats ass about becoming a dynasty.

The goal is to win a title for me. One title before I die is all I ask.

-King-
04-14-2011, 08:56 PM
If we win one championship, I don't give a rats ass about becoming a dynasty.

The goal is to win a title for me. One title before I die is all I ask.

This.

Bewbies
04-14-2011, 08:59 PM
I beg to differ(Dilfer?), teams with bigger holes than those have won championships.

We're several guys away, and boatloads of luck, from having that kind of defense. If you want to keep Cassel, that defense is what we're going to need.

-King-
04-14-2011, 08:59 PM
Not at all.

I AM expecting this set of premier coaches to make the players we have play better than has been seen thus far due to the age of most of the players in question and their respective potential(s).

Richardson
Studebaker
Jackson
Tucker
Cassel

IMO we need our coaches to make solid players out of at least 2-3 of those guys for us to take the next step as a team.

If you want to count that as "hope" well, I guess thats your opinion but I think that asking for good coaches to get players under them to improve is expected and that all of those guys have shown the ability to play at a very high level for us at times...now what needs to happen is for them to develop consistency and that is what coaches like:

Zorn
Crennel
Haley
Muir (laugh all you want but the guy has been a pro coach longer than most of you have watched the game)

All have a track record of doing good things with the players they have coached in the past.

We fill 4 spots (minimum) through coaching up current players/free agency/drafted players and we are a repeat champ of the afc west...we fill 5 and we can probably win a playoff game...we fill 6 need spots with good players and we can beat anyone in the NFL.

Damn, until now, I had forgotten we got Zorn.

JASONSAUTO
04-14-2011, 09:17 PM
If we win one championship, I don't give a rats ass about becoming a dynasty.

The goal is to win a title for me. One title before I die is all I ask.

Yep. win a championship, THEN worry about another then another. Can't ever have a chance without the first one.

I, too, would be happy with just one.
Posted via Mobile Device

mnchiefsguy
04-14-2011, 10:36 PM
If there is a lot of trade activity on draft, I expect the Chiefs to be involved. I see Pioli wanting to stockpile draft picks.

HighChief
04-15-2011, 09:20 AM
We're several guys away, and boatloads of luck, from having that kind of defense. If you want to keep Cassel, that defense is what we're going to need.

If Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Eli Manning can win one we can win one with Cassel. You would be hard pressed to convince a ton of people that Eli is any better than matt. We have a pretty good D but dont need the best D ever to win it all with Cassel.

We are a few pieces away and some luck away from a championship WITH MATT CASSEL.

Brock
04-15-2011, 09:30 AM
If Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Eli Manning can win one we can win one with Cassel. You would be hard pressed to convince a ton of people that Eli is any better than matt. We have a pretty good D but dont need the best D ever to win it all with Cassel.

We are a few pieces away and some luck away from a championship WITH MATT CASSEL.

All of those QBs you mentioned had great, GREAT defenses.

the Talking Can
04-15-2011, 09:42 AM
If Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Eli Manning can win one we can win one with Cassel. You would be hard pressed to convince a ton of people that Eli is any better than matt. We have a pretty good D but dont need the best D ever to win it all with Cassel.

We are a few pieces away and some luck away from a championship WITH MATT CASSEL.

hilarious....Dilfer won with one of the greatest defenses in NFL history...

and how hard would it be to convince anyone that a QB who won a superbowl - Eli -is better than Cassel?

the only thing we've seen from Cassel in the playoffs if that he shits his pants...so, I guess we either need to acquire one of the best defenses in history, or hope Cassel magically becomes clutch...

we need the best player on our team to be the QB if we're serious about a superbowl...right now the best player is a RB...big problem

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 09:46 AM
hilarious....Dilfer won with one of the greatest defenses in NFL history...

and how hard would it be to convince anyone that a QB who won a superbowl - Eli -is better than Cassel?

the only thing we've seen from Cassel in the playoffs if that he shits his pants...so, I guess we either need to acquire one of the best defenses in history, or hope Cassel magically becomes clutch...

we need the best player on our team to be the QB if we're serious about a superbowl...right now the best player is a RB...big problem

He played in 1 playoff game. I guess he can never get better. IIRC the BEST player fumbled and couldn't convert a 4th a 1.

milkman
04-15-2011, 09:52 AM
hilarious....Dilfer won with one of the greatest defenses in NFL history...

and how hard would it be to convince anyone that a QB who won a superbowl - Eli -is better than Cassel?

the only thing we've seen from Cassel in the playoffs if that he shits his pants...so, I guess we either need to acquire one of the best defenses in history, or hope Cassel magically becomes clutch...

we need the best player on our team to be the QB if we're serious about a superbowl...right now the best player is a RB...big problem

One could argue that Emmit Smith was the best player on his team when the Cowboys were dynastic in the nineties (I would argue otherwise, but that's another discussion).

But aside from Smith, the best player on every one of the dynastic teams through the years has always been the QB.

And I know there are people who would argue that Terry Bradshaw wasn't, but he was far better than most people recognize, and was the only one that adapted to changes in system as his offense evolved through the dynastic years.

milkman
04-15-2011, 09:54 AM
He played in 1 playoff game. I guess he can never get better. IIRC the BEST player fumbled and couldn't convert a 4th a 1.

That 4th and 1 playcall was an absolute joke, and the fact that you even mention it as some sort of failure by Charles just shows how disingenuous you are.

Barret
04-15-2011, 09:57 AM
Silly question, even with the hiring of Zorn, does the lock out cause Cassell to regress since he has no one helping him with his issues he has?

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Silly question, even with the hiring of Zorn, does the lock out cause Cassell to regress since he has no one helping him with his issues he has?

Awesome.

More excuses for a 28 year old QB.

milkman
04-15-2011, 10:00 AM
Silly question, even with the hiring of Zorn, does the lock out cause Cassell to regress since he has no one helping him with his issues he has?

Regress?

Probably not, but he certainly needed this time to work with Zorn to hope for any continued progression going into next season.

I just think it's a fucking travesty that we even have to discuss this with a QB that's nearly 30 fucking years old.

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 10:32 AM
That 4th and 1 playcall was an absolute joke, and the fact that you even mention it as some sort of failure by Charles just shows how disingenuous you are.

It's also a bit disingenuous not to realize that there were legitimate factors affecting Cassell, such as not having a WR worth a damn to pass to outside of Bowe.

milkman
04-15-2011, 10:36 AM
It's also a bit disingenuous not to realize that there were legitimate factors affecting Cassell, such as not having a WR worth a damn to pass to outside of Bowe.

You haven't been paying attention.

I have discussed Cassel's improvement, and what he needs to continue to progress, which includes better weapons.

But what he needs more than anything is continued work on mechanics and reads.

Coogs
04-15-2011, 11:21 AM
That 4th and 1 playcall was an absolute joke, and the fact that you even mention it as some sort of failure by Charles just shows how disingenuous you are.

I don't recall what the 4th and 1 call was. But go up to the Chiefs Links tab at the top of the page. Go down to the Classic Games link. On there is the game against the Raiders at Oakland. We had six 2nd and 1 or 3rd and 1 situations, and got nothing. First several were run attempts where the O-line got obliterated. We went to the pass because of that, and same result... zero conversions on short yardage.

The O-line has to be upgraded big time. IMO before the WR's, because without the threat of being able to run the ball in short yardage situations, we will not be able to pass either, no matter who the WR's are.

Detoxing
04-15-2011, 11:30 AM
The O-line has to be upgraded big time. IMO before the WR's, because without the threat of being able to run the ball in short yardage situations, we will not be able to pass either, no matter who the WR's are.

As true as that it is, it's a double edged sword. If we have the threat of a passing game, teams won't be so inclined to stack the box, thus relieving the stress on the O-line.

If they addressed either with the 1st pick, I wouldn't complain.

the Talking Can
04-15-2011, 11:32 AM
He played in 1 playoff game. I guess he can never get better. IIRC the BEST player fumbled and couldn't convert a 4th a 1.

that's a dumb comparison...

JASONSAUTO
04-15-2011, 11:33 AM
Awesome.

More excuses for a 28 year old QB.

I read that as a question. Not an excuse.
Posted via Mobile Device

the Talking Can
04-15-2011, 11:37 AM
One could argue that Emmit Smith was the best player on his team when the Cowboys were dynastic in the nineties (I would argue otherwise, but that's another discussion).

But aside from Smith, the best player on every one of the dynastic teams through the years has always been the QB.

And I know there are people who would argue that Terry Bradshaw wasn't, but he was far better than most people recognize, and was the only one that adapted to changes in system as his offense evolved through the dynastic years.

it's always about the QB when you're talking Superbowl...with very, very few exceptions


we're stuck have to hope and pretend Cassel is one of those guys...meanwhile, all we can do is try to surround him a couple dozen probowlers and see if that works....the truth is, up to this point, Cassel gives us no margin for error

He can't have a bad OL like Rothleisraper or Manning
He can't have a bad running game like Brady or Manning
He can't have a mediocre defense like Manning or Brees

he's got to have it all for us to have a serious chance...it just makes it harder

Hog Farmer
04-15-2011, 11:58 AM
I believe he said 4-5 players from being a contender and he is right. 4-5 of the right players. We won 10 games last year, albeit with a soft schedule, but with a better pass rush (DT, OLB) we greatly improve our defense. With a WR, C, RT, we greatly improve our offense. Not that the draft will fall that way, but that would make us a hell of a problem for a lot of teams.


4-5 players = 25% of our starting team , geez we suck

Coogs
04-15-2011, 12:00 PM
As true as that it is, it's a double edged sword. If we have the threat of a passing game, teams won't be so inclined to stack the box, thus relieving the stress on the O-line.

If they addressed either with the 1st pick, I wouldn't complain.

I tend to agree, but by the same token the O-line has to be able to give the RB a crease at some point no matter how many guys are up front on defense. In goal line/short yardage situations, guys like Marcus Allen were able to convert nearly every time with just a tiny gap to slip through. Charles is a good enough back to do the same, but there was just no room at all to slither through.

Barret
04-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Awesome.

More excuses for a 28 year old QB.

I am not trying to make an excuse for him. But I am wondering if that is going through the Head Coach and GM's mind when they are looking at the draft.

If Zorn was brought in to assist Cassel and had the time to keep him up to par or manageable then as a GM I might look later in the draft for a back up if they aren't bringing Croyle or Palko back.

But if Cassel has no direction or assistance in the off season and the last few games played showed that he is falling back into old habits of being a shitty QB, then as a GM wouldn't you have to put a backup / future QB higher in the pecking order then 4th or 5th rounder?

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 01:20 PM
I read that as a question. Not an excuse.
Posted via Mobile Device

He asked it as a question.

Guarantee it will be used at some point, by someone - if not many people - as an excuse.

Assuming there's a season, of course.

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 01:23 PM
It's sad that the potential regression of a 28 year old QB due to lack of facetime with the QB coach is even a topic of discussion here.

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 01:24 PM
It's sad that the potential regression of a 28 year old QB due to lack of facetime with the QB coach is even a topic of discussion here.

4 OC's in 3 years?

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 01:26 PM
4 OC's in 3 years?

Do us all a favor.

List all of your bullshit excuses in one post, instead of spacing them out here-and-there.

Bewbies
04-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Do us all a favor.

List all of your bullshit excuses in one post, instead of spacing them out here-and-there.

I'd agree.

Pestilence
04-15-2011, 01:27 PM
4 OC's in 3 years?

So you want Alex Smith then right?

DeezNutz
04-15-2011, 01:31 PM
I just think it's a ****ing travesty that we even have to discuss this with a QB that's nearly 30 ****ing years old.

But he's been starting for only a couple of years, so it's really like he's 25. :thumb:

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Do us all a favor.

List all of your bullshit excuses in one post, instead of spacing them out here-and-there.

Does a QB have a better chance developing when he has one OC for a few years, or 4 in 3 years?

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 01:44 PM
Does a QB have a better chance developing when he has one OC for a few years, or 4 in 3 years?

Does a QB have a better chance of developing when he has talent, or when he's a talentless POS?

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 01:52 PM
Does a QB have a better chance of developing when he has talent, or when he's a talentless POS?

3000 + yards with 27 TDs and 7 INTs, on a team with only 1 legitimate starting NFL receiver is good.

I'm sorry KC didn't take Sanchez or Clausen, but Cassel improved last year, despite having one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL. Give him some more weapons and his #'s and performance should continue to improve.

DeezNutz
04-15-2011, 01:54 PM
I'm going to be interested to see the impact of the Weis-effect. Zorn is, by all accounts, a very talented QB coach, but how will Cassel perform with a play-caller who might not try to mask some of his weaknesses?

Didn't look good in '09, but if he's truly improved, we should still see a steady ascent.

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 02:02 PM
I'm going to be interested to see the impact of the Weis-effect. Zorn is, by all accounts, a very talented QB coach, but how will Cassel perform with a play-caller who might not try to mask some of his weaknesses?

Didn't look good in '09, but if he's truly improved, we should still see a steady ascent.

I guess that's the nice way of saying the stats NJ posted are just the benefit of smoke and mirrors?

Chiefnj2
04-15-2011, 02:10 PM
I guess that's the nice way of saying the stats NJ posted are just the benefit of smoke and mirrors?

Because most OC's expose their QB's weaknesses and try not to play to their QB's strengths.

OnTheWarpath58
04-15-2011, 02:20 PM
Because most OC's expose their QB's weaknesses and try not to play to their QB's strengths.

Most championship caliber QB's don't have enough weaknesses to handcuff their OC.

JASONSAUTO
04-15-2011, 03:30 PM
He asked it as a question.

Guarantee it will be used at some point, by someone - if not many people - as an excuse.

Assuming there's a season, of course.

ok great but that is not what was happening there.

AustinChief
04-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I count RB2 as a hole. how the **** are you gonna be a running team with only one (frail) back?


Did Jones and Battle retire when I wasn't looking? Jones is NOT a bad back.. he does however require some semblance of run blocking for him to be effective.. JC doesn't. Get a decent C and move Asamoah to a starting spot and Jones will be a FINE RB2 (at least for one more year).

milkman
04-15-2011, 05:00 PM
it's always about the QB when you're talking Superbowl...with very, very few exceptions


we're stuck have to hope and pretend Cassel is one of those guys...meanwhile, all we can do is try to surround him a couple dozen probowlers and see if that works....the truth is, up to this point, Cassel gives us no margin for error

He can't have a bad OL like Rothleisraper or Manning
He can't have a bad running game like Brady or Manning
He can't have a mediocre defense like Manning or Brees

he's got to have it all for us to have a serious chance...it just makes it harder

How did this myth that Manning had a bad O-Line ever get started?

They had trouble adjusting to 34 defenses, and every time Manning was pressured by the Patriots or the Chargers in the playoffs over the years, Manning has shit himself almost as badly as Cassel.

And the only SB he and the Colts have won is one in which Dominick Rhodes and Joeseph Addai and the defense really stepped up their games.

milkman
04-15-2011, 05:03 PM
Did Jones and Battle retire when I wasn't looking? Jones is NOT a bad back.. he does however require some semblance of run blocking for him to be effective.. JC doesn't. Get a decent C and move Asamoah to a starting spot and Jones will be a FINE RB2 (at least for one more year).

Jone wore down as the season progressed.

The first half of the season, he was really effective, but over the course of the season, his effectiveness diminished to the point that he was totally non productive.

That was not on the O-Line.

We need to improve the O-Line, wothout question, but we can not go into next season with Jones as the #2 RB.

AustinChief
04-15-2011, 05:09 PM
Jone wore down as the season progressed.

The first half of the season, he was really effective, but over the course of the season, his effectiveness diminished to the point that he was totally non productive.

That was not on the O-Line.

We need to improve the O-Line, wothout question, but we can not go into next season with Jones as the #2 RB.

You may be right, but it's hard to say that a lack of o-line support didn't contribute to wearing him down both physically and mentally. We won't know until we fix the line. I absolutely think we need a RB3 waiting in the wings (unless you think Battle is the answer) but for NEXT year I think Jones is more than fine.

milkman
04-15-2011, 05:17 PM
You may be right, but it's hard to say that a lack of o-line support didn't contribute to wearing him down both physically and mentally. We won't know until we fix the line. I absolutely think we need a RB3 waiting in the wings (unless you think Battle is the answer) but for NEXT year I think Jones is more than fine.

He showed those signs of wear in each of his last two seasons with the Jets, and was a virtual no show in the 09 playoffs.

He's getting older, and simply doesn't have the endurance to be productive for 16 games.

AustinChief
04-15-2011, 05:45 PM
He showed those signs of wear in each of his last two seasons with the Jets, and was a virtual no show in the 09 playoffs.

He's getting older, and simply doesn't have the endurance to be productive for 16 games.

Fair enough, but I'd still say it isn't a "HOLE" but it is a legit "need".. maybe it's just a difference in definitions...

milkman
04-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Fair enough, but I'd still say it isn't a "HOLE" but it is a legit "need".. maybe it's just a difference in definitions...

"Hole"
"Need"

I don't know how you define it, and honestly, can't say I care.

What I do know and care about is that we can not go into next season thinking we can rely on Thomas Jones, and nothing that Battle has done makes me think he''s anything more than a scub.

But there's also no way we should rely on Charles for more than 20 carries a game.

Chocolate Hog
04-15-2011, 06:01 PM
People have some serious reading comprehension.



To me, contender means championship.

If you just want to go 9-7 or 10-6 every year, maybe make the playoffs, maybe not, then the positions I mentioned don't need upgrading.

This team WILL NOT win a championship with the Cassel, Jackson or Belcher as full-time starters.

Sorry but I don't see how Jackson is THAT much of a liability. You add a QB, WR, and a NT this team makes it to a few AFC title games.

AustinChief
04-15-2011, 06:11 PM
"Hole"
"Need"

I don't know how you define it, and honestly, can't say I care.

What I do know and care about is that we can not go into next season thinking we can rely on Thomas Jones, and nothing that Battle has done makes me think he''s anything more than a scub.

But there's also no way we should rely on Charles for more than 20 carries a game.

I know you said you didn't care but I'll explain anyway :D For me a HOLE is a glaring need where you don't even have a "serviceable" player to fill it. Yes, we could use an upgrade at RB2 but to say that TJ isn't at least serviceable as a #2 RB would be hard to defend. Same with WR3.. plenty of serviceable players there but NOTHING at WR2, which is why WR3 is a need and WR2 is a HOLE. And yes, I make this shit up as I go along.

Gadzooks
04-15-2011, 07:04 PM
How did this myth that Manning had a bad O-Line ever get started?

They had trouble adjusting to 34 defenses, and every time Manning was pressured by the Patriots or the Chargers in the playoffs over the years, Manning has shit himself almost as badly as Cassel.

And the only SB he and the Colts have won is one in which Dominick Rhodes and Joeseph Addai and the defense really stepped up their games.

Nobody shits their pants worse than Manning agaist a 3-4 front. Not even Cassel...