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orange
04-18-2011, 06:02 PM
Andres Serrano's Controversial Photograph 'Piss Christ' Destroyed By Catholics In France

By CECILE BRISSON 04/18/11 02:17 PM ET AP

PARIS -- Police questioned witnesses on Monday in their search for a man who took a hammer to a controversial photograph of a crucifix bathed in urine at an art exhibition in an Avignon museum.

The modern art museum, the Collection Lambert, in southern France, said an assailant destroyed the photograph by American artist Andres Serrano, "Immersion (Piss Christ)" on Sunday and apparently accidentally damaged another of the artist's works while struggling with a guard.

It was not immediately clear whether the assailant was part of a demonstration a day earlier by a right-wing group denouncing the 1987 photograph as blasphemous and demanding its removal from the exhibition, entitled "I Believe in Miracles."

According to police, citing witnesses, two people tried to enter the museum late Sunday morning carrying a can of paint spray and a chisel in their jackets. The guard removed the objects – just as a third person took a hammer to "Immersion."

The attacker struggled with a guard, but helped by an accomplice, managed to escape, police said. In the struggle, he apparently damaged another work, "The Church (Sister Jeanne-Myriam)," which shows a nun praying.

The police officials asked not to be identified by name because they weren't authorized to discuss the investigation publicly.

The museum's doors were shut Monday for its weekly closing. However, it said it will reopen Tuesday with the destroyed works on display so that the public can view the damage. The museum closed early Saturday because of a protest of the protest.

Serrano made the controversial work by placing a crucifix in urine and blood, and it has drawn criticism in the past from some Christian groups.

Young far-right Christian activists from the General Alliance Against Racism and for the Respect of the French and Christian Identity is taking the Collection Lambert to court Wednesday to try to have the crucifix photograph removed from the exhibit. The group denounced the photograph on its Web site, saying it "insults and injures Christians at the heart of their faith."

The exhibit opened Dec. 12 and is to run until May 8.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/18/vandals-damage-divisive-p_n_850695.html


for more detail: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=7576723&postcount=56

Saul Good
04-18-2011, 06:03 PM
Sounds like the attacker was a performance artist himself. I'm glad nobody got beheaded over this.

RedNeckRaider
04-18-2011, 06:07 PM
Sounds like the attacker was a performance artist himself. I'm glad nobody got beheaded over this.

That is old testament talk, they have a new book out~

vailpass
04-18-2011, 06:32 PM
Freedom of expression cuts both ways apparently. Cest la vie.
BTW Orange can you show me where the article says the responsible parties were Catholic?

Jaric
04-18-2011, 06:34 PM
Can anyone say they're upset about this?

AustinChief
04-18-2011, 06:58 PM
Wake me when they start threatening the artist...

KILLER_CLOWN
04-18-2011, 07:01 PM
Can anyone say they're upset about this?

i thought about being upset about it and decided against it.

mlyonsd
04-18-2011, 07:02 PM
In other news.....Saturday evening ABC will be airing The Ten Commandments.

I'm not even a practicing Catholic but that is one of the best movies ever made.

blaise
04-18-2011, 07:19 PM
Muslims break stuff every day. orange is obviously hate mongering against Catholics.

Saul Good
04-18-2011, 07:36 PM
In other news.....Saturday evening ABC will be airing The Ten Commandments.

I'm not even a practicing Catholic but that is one of the best movies ever made.

Charlton Heston is/was a relative of mine.

suzzer99
04-18-2011, 07:45 PM
Can't he just make another print?

Taco John
04-18-2011, 09:25 PM
Oh well...

ClevelandBronco
04-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Young far-right Christian activists from the General Alliance Against Racism and for the Respect of the French and Christian Identity is taking the Collection Lambert to court Wednesday to try to have the crucifix photograph removed from the exhibit. The group denounced the photograph on its Web site, saying it "insults and injures Christians at the heart of their faith."

Really? The existence of a photographic work of art is all it takes to injure you at the heart of your faith? Put on the armor of God, guys. It's right there in the book.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-18-2011, 11:31 PM
Those motherfuckers. That was, literally, my favorite piece of shock art.

|Zach|
04-18-2011, 11:59 PM
Strong actions stir equal and opposite reactions. I don't see a bad guy in this story.

Fishpicker
04-19-2011, 12:40 AM
Strong actions stir equal and opposite reactions. I don't see a bad guy in this story.

nah bro. the person that destroyed the art is clearly in the wrong. you'd be ok with your art being destroyed if someone didn't like it?

|Zach|
04-19-2011, 12:46 AM
nah bro. the person that destroyed the art is clearly in the wrong. you'd be ok with your art being destroyed if someone didn't like it?

Hmmm, I think...I wouldn't be ok with it but it wouldn't surprise me.

If you poke the dog enough it will bite you. Not saying right\wrong or anything.

Fishpicker
04-19-2011, 12:50 AM
but you did say there is no bad.

Catholics aren't dogs or some wild animals without reason.

listopencil
04-19-2011, 01:02 AM
Yeah, but look at this:

Angelina Barnes, Oklahoma Woman, Mutilated Cat For Outfit To Wear At Lady Gaga Concert

Angelina Barnes, a 20-year-old woman in Oklahoma, has been charged with animal cruelty after the gruesome death and mutilation of a relative's cat, apparently using the blood for an outfit she planned to wear to a Lady Gaga concert, KFOR reports (http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-woman-mutilates-cat-before-lady-gaga-concert-20110412,0,614894.story).

A relative arrived home to a completely dark house, with duct tape covering light switches. Barnes was found in a long coat with streaks of what ended up being cat blood on her face, an outfit that she intended to wear to the Lady Gaga concert.

Investigators found purple hair dye and blood all over the bathroom along with the cat that had been drowned; sliced down the belly, eyes mutilated, the cat's liver was found in a makeup case on counter.

Barnes' was taken to the hospital following the incident, where she threatened a nurse with a piece of glass. KFOR reports that Barnes had previously been diagnosed with depression, but that the violence was "completely out of character."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/woman-mutilates-cat-lady-gaga-outfit_n_849167.html

crazycoffey
04-19-2011, 03:19 AM
Yeah, but look at this:

Angelina Barnes, Oklahoma Woman, Mutilated Cat For Outfit To Wear At Lady Gaga Concert

Angelina Barnes, a 20-year-old woman in Oklahoma, has been charged with animal cruelty after the gruesome death and mutilation of a relative's cat, apparently using the blood for an outfit she planned to wear to a Lady Gaga concert, KFOR reports (http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-woman-mutilates-cat-before-lady-gaga-concert-20110412,0,614894.story).

A relative arrived home to a completely dark house, with duct tape covering light switches. Barnes was found in a long coat with streaks of what ended up being cat blood on her face, an outfit that she intended to wear to the Lady Gaga concert.

Investigators found purple hair dye and blood all over the bathroom along with the cat that had been drowned; sliced down the belly, eyes mutilated, the cat's liver was found in a makeup case on counter.

Barnes' was taken to the hospital following the incident, where she threatened a nurse with a piece of glass. KFOR reports that Barnes had previously been diagnosed with depression, but that the violence was "completely out of character."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/woman-mutilates-cat-lady-gaga-outfit_n_849167.html


but was it done in the name of art?

Adept Havelock
04-19-2011, 05:43 AM
Freedom of expression cuts both ways apparently. Cest la vie.


Duly noted, failpass has claimed that destruction of private property is Freedom of Expression.

patteeu
04-19-2011, 06:08 AM
It shouldn't have been done, but the bright side of this story is the contrast shown between this radical Christian reaction to insulting art and that of another obvious religion.

I wonder if Serrano has the guts to create Piss Mohammed.

InChiefsHell
04-19-2011, 06:16 AM
I don't see that "Catholics" specifically are mentioned in the article. I didn't think there were any Christians left in Europe anyway. It's easy for a guy like Serrano to create this type of shock art...he's not going to have his head cut off or anything. That would be reserved for his picture of Mohammed. Oh yeah, he doesn't have one of those...

Dave Lane
04-19-2011, 06:24 AM
The religion of peace strikes again. Paint all christians with the same brush like muslims,

alnorth
04-19-2011, 07:37 AM
I would be upset... except I thought Piss Christ was a really dumb shoddy piece of work that hardly merited the description "art". As far as I'm concerned, a worthless photo was destroyed.

Jaric
04-19-2011, 07:38 AM
I would be upset... except I thought Piss Christ was a really dumb shoddy piece of work that hardly merited the description "art". As far as I'm concerned, a worthless photo was destroyed.

Pretty much this.

Saul Good
04-19-2011, 07:40 AM
It shouldn't have been done, but the bright side of this story is the contrast shown between this radical Christian reaction to insulting art and that of another obvious religion.

I wonder if Serrano has the guts to create Piss Mohammed.

Its always so brave and shocking to insult Christians. Where are these fearless artists when it comes to Islam? If you want to provoke a response with shock art, provoke a response with shock art.

blaise
04-19-2011, 08:04 AM
Its always so brave and shocking to insult Christians. Where are these fearless artists when it comes to Islam? If you want to provoke a response with shock art, provoke a response with shock art.

I think mocking Christian images in art for the sake of shocking an audience has become sort of hack. "I want to be outrageous, so more my next video I'll dress like a nun and have naked dudes behind me! I don't know what it means, but it's outrageous!"

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-19-2011, 08:12 AM
I think mocking Christian images in art for the sake of shocking an audience has become sort of hack. "I want to be outrageous, so more my next video I'll dress like a nun and have naked dudes behind me! I don't know what it means, but it's outrageous!"

You are misreading the piece.

While it can be read as mocking Christian iconography, one of the things that "Piss Christ" also does is show the growing commercialization of religious wares in general.

Iowanian
04-19-2011, 08:20 AM
The religion of peace strikes again. Paint all christians with the same brush like muslims,

I wasn't planning on skinning the guy alive until the Pope declares a Fatwa.




Like others have suggested, I dare the artist to create "feces Allah"

blaise
04-19-2011, 08:22 AM
You are misreading the piece.

While it can be read as mocking Christian iconography, one of the things that "Piss Christ" also does is show the growing commercialization of religious wares in general.

I wasn't speaking about the Piss Chris piece, but commenting on Saul's comment on artists ridiculing Christianity in general.

chiefsnorth
04-19-2011, 08:33 AM
It shouldn't have been done, but the bright side of this story is the contrast shown between this radical Christian reaction to insulting art and that of another obvious religion.

I wonder if Serrano has the guts to create Piss Mohammed.

This is really an outlier, when you consider how many defamatory works of art there have been before. I remember the Mary statue covered in dung and a few others.

This reminds me of Duchamp's "Fountain". It's a piece of Dada art that is a urinal. It was attacked by a performance artist who hit it with a hammer and urinated on it, and his justification was that he himself was performing in the same style and the artist would have been pleased with his work. (though he is long dead now)

blaise
04-19-2011, 08:45 AM
This is really an outlier, when you consider how many defamatory works of art there have been before. I remember the Mary statue covered in dung and a few others.

This reminds me of Duchamp's "Fountain". It's a piece of Dada art that is a urinal. It was attacked by a performance artist who hit it with a hammer and urinated on it, and his justification was that he himself was performing in the same style and the artist would have been pleased with his work. (though he is long dead now)

I think because the one was Dada, and I don't think Piss Christ is, it's different.

BucEyedPea
04-19-2011, 09:15 AM
Those mother****ers. That was, literally, my favorite piece of shock art.

What? You didn't think his photography exhibit on feces titled "Shit" was better shock-art?

http://www.artslant.com/lon/articles/show/5329

Chief Henry
04-19-2011, 09:18 AM
Nothing new here in this thread. The same old posters come out and bash Catholics and Christians again. At every opprotunity its the same old same old.

Why do you suppose Orange posted this anyway ? Like another poster already stated, lets see the artist make the same ART but this time with a picture of Allah or the Quran.

ClevelandBronco
04-19-2011, 09:20 AM
I refuse to excuse this act simply because a Muslim viewing Piss Muhammad might be expected to do worse damage.

blaise
04-19-2011, 09:23 AM
Nothing new here in this thread. The same old posters come out and bash Catholics and Christians again. At every opprotunity its the same old same old.

Why do you suppose Orange posted this anyway ? Like another poster already stated, lets see the artist make the same ART but this time with a picture of Allah or the Quran.

He posted it as a jab at the people who start threads and post links about Muslims doing wacky stuff. I don't know why he specified Catholics, though.

LOCOChief
04-19-2011, 09:52 AM
I don't know if we need Serrano to do this. I was pretty good at art in HS I think I could come up with an interesting depiction of Mohammad eating peanut butter from the loins of a mangy dog while bystanders hit him with their shoes.

I will entitle it: POS muslim scum bags.

suzzer99
04-19-2011, 10:01 AM
I still want to know why he can't just make another print. Did he lose the negative?

Brock
04-19-2011, 10:02 AM
And nothing of value was lost.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:22 AM
but you did say there is no bad.

Catholics aren't dogs or some wild animals without reason.

Where does it say that the person who destroyed it was Catholic?

orange
04-19-2011, 11:27 AM
To the several who asked:

Andres Serrano was born and raised Roman Catholic. Why the hell would he make any art about the non-existant influence of Islam on him? Because you guys insist?

As for the identification of the vandals as Catholics, this was just a short blurb. The event didn't happen in a vacuum, there have been weeks of protests up to this, and the attackers were from a group.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:30 AM
To the several who asked:

Andres Serrano was born and raised Roman Catholic. Why the hell would he make any art about the non-existant influence of Islam on him? Because you guys insist?

Oh, so we are free to fill in factual gaps in quoted pieces based on what we believe the facts should be?
Now that's the kind of change I've been hoping for!:thumb:

orange
04-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Oh, so we are free to fill in factual gaps in quoted pieces based on what we believe the facts should be?
Now that's the kind of change I've been hoping for!:thumb:

You're also free to conjure up irrelevant nonsense completely out of the blue, "why doesn't he attack Islam?" And this is no change at all, it's always been this way.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 11:34 AM
To the several who asked:

Andres Serrano was born and raised Roman Catholic. Why the hell would he make any art about the non-existant influence of Islam on him? Because you guys insist?

You forgot to mention he's an uninspired hack...

This is worthless shock "art" that has no depth or value.. that said, the people who vandalized his "work" should be treated like the ignorant thugs they acted like. Easiest way to make Serrano and his ilk go away... ignore them and ignore anyone or any establishment that promotes them. If you don't have that much self control than you are just as much a part of the problem as they are.

chasedude
04-19-2011, 11:35 AM
Well look at it this way. If the artist did a pic of the prophet muhammad covered in piss then he would be destroyed along with his art.

chasedude
04-19-2011, 11:36 AM
You forgot to mention he's an uninspired hack...

This is worthless shock "art" that has no depth or value.. that said, the people who vandalized his "work" should be treated like the ignorant thugs they acted like. Easiest way to make Serrano and his ilk go away... ignore them and ignore anyone or any establishment that promotes them. If you don't have that much self control than you are just as much a part of the problem as they are.

Well said sir.

Donger
04-19-2011, 11:37 AM
I didn't know that he received $15,000 for the "art" and that a portion of that came from NEA.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:39 AM
You're also free to conjure up irrelevant nonsense completely out of the blue, "why doesn't he attack Islam?" And this is no change at all, it's always been this way.

I just found it interesting that you felt free to assume the person is Catholic when nothing in the article specifically said so. Everything about the situation points to the person being Catholic; the motivation, the fact that France is a Catholic country, etc. but it is not specifically staed.

This is called profiling and it is a very effective tool. the exact same thing people like you scream and cry about when we employ it to identify terrorists in airports, etc.

Jaric
04-19-2011, 11:39 AM
I didn't know that he received $15,000 for the "art" and that a portion of that came from NEA.

Yeah, that shit needs to stop.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Yeah, that shit needs to stop.

Quickfastinahurry.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 11:44 AM
I didn't know that he received $15,000 for the "art" and that a portion of that came from NEA.

An inherent flaw in the NEA... what if someone put together an art exhibit extolling the Nazi's and the holocaust? Or an artistic set of campaign posters promoting Haley Barbour for president? When art has socio-political agendas it shouldn't be funded by the taxpayer. No matter what that agenda may be.

orange
04-19-2011, 11:45 AM
I just found it interesting that you felt free to assume the person is Catholic when nothing in the article specifically said so. Everything about the situation points to the person being Catholic; the motivation, the fact that France is a Catholic country, etc. but it is not specifically staed.

This is called profiling and it is a very effective tool. the exact same thing people like you scream and cry about when we employ it to identify terrorists in airports, etc.

Not my headline. That's the article's headline.

Swing and a miss.

ClevelandBronco
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
I just found it interesting that you felt free to assume the person is Catholic when nothing in the article specifically said so. Everything about the situation points to the person being Catholic; the motivation, the fact that France is a Catholic country, etc. but it is not specifically staed.

This is called profiling and it is a very effective tool. the exact same thing people like you scream and cry about when we employ it to identify terrorists in airports, etc.

I'm now curious whether France has more active Catholics than it has active Muslims.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
Not my headline. That's the article's headline.

Swing and a miss.

Please.

orange
04-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Attack on 'blasphemous' art work fires debate on role of religion in France
• Intruders vandalise photo day after Christian protest
• Exhibitor blames Sarkozy speech for inflaming issue


Angelique Chrisafis in Paris guardian.co.uk
Monday 18 April 2011 20.00 BST

Andres Serrano's Piss Christ has been destroyed by Christian protesters in Avignon, France, after weeks of protests.

When New York artist Andres Serrano plunged a plastic crucifix into a glass of his own urine and photographed it in 1987 under the title Piss Christ, he said he was making a statement on the misuse of religion.

Controversy has followed the work ever since, but reached an unprecedented peak on Palm Sunday when it was attacked with hammers and destroyed after an "anti-blasphemy" campaign by French Catholic fundamentalists in the southern city of Avignon.

The violent slashing of the picture, and another Serrano photograph of a meditating nun, has plunged secular France into soul-searching about Christian fundamentalism and Nicolas Sarkozy's use of religious populism in his bid for re-election next year.

It also marks a return to an old standoff between Serrano and the religious right that dates back more than 20 years, to Reagan-era Republicanism in the US.

The photograph, full title Immersion (Piss Christ), was made in 1987 as part of Serrano's series showing religious objects submerged in fluids such as blood and milk. In 1989, rightwing Christian senators' criticism of Piss Christ led to a heated US debate on public arts funding. Republican Jesse Helms told the senate Serrano was "not an artist. He's a jerk."

Serrano defended his photograph as a criticism of the "billion-dollar Christ-for-profit industry" and a "condemnation of those who abuse the teachings of Christ for their own ignoble ends". It was vandalised in Australia, and neo-Nazis ransacked a Serrano show in Sweden in 2007.

The photograph had been shown in France several times without incident. For four months, it has hung in the exhibition I Believe in Miracles, to mark 10 years of art-dealer Yvon Lambert's personal collection in his 18th-century mansion gallery in Avignon. The show is due to end next month, but two weeks ago a concerted protest campaign began.

Civitas, a lobby group that says it aims to re-Christianize France, launched an online petition and mobilised other fundamentalist groups. The staunchly conservative archbishop of Vaucluse, Jean-Pierre Cattenoz, called Piss Christ "odious" and said he wanted this "trash" taken off the gallery walls. Last week the gallery complained of "extremist harassment" by fundamentalist Christian groups who wanted the work banned in France.

Lambert, one of France's best known art dealers, complained he was being "persecuted" by extremists who had sent him tens of thousands of complaint emails and bombarded the museum with spam. He likened the atmosphere to "a return to the middle ages".

On Saturday, around 1,000 Christian protesters marched through Avignon to the gallery. The protest group included a regional councillor for the extreme-right Front National, which recently scored well in the Vaucluse area in local elections. The gallery immediately stepped up security, putting plexiglass in front of the photograph and assigning two gallery guards to stand in front of it.

But on Palm Sunday morning, four people in sunglasses aged between 18 and 25 entered the exhibition just after it opened at 11am. One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it. A guard grabbed another man around the waist but within seconds the group managed to take a hammer to the plexiglass screen and slash the photograph with another sharp object, thought to be a screwdriver or ice-pick. They also smashed another work, which showed the hands of a meditating nun.

The gallery director, Eric Mézil, said it would reopen with the destroyed works on show "so people can see what barbarians can do". He said there had been a kind of "inquisition" against the art work.

In a statement, he said the movement against Piss Christ had started at the time of President Nicolas Sarkozy's ruling UMP party's controversial debate on religion and secularism in France. At a record low in the polls before next year's presidential election, Sarkozy has been accused of using anti-Muslim and extreme-right rhetoric to appeal to voters and counter the rise of the Front National.

Asked by the daily Libération why the Piss Christ protest had happened now, Mézil pointed to Sarkozy's speech in March lauding "the Christian heritage of France" at Puy-en-Velay, where the first Crusades were preached.

He said: "Clearly we saw in Saturday's demonstration that a Catholic fringe wanted to take the president at his word, with extremely violent appeals." He said there was a climate of tension, with protesters insulting museum staff of north African origin. One guard said he heard: "I'm going to pour donkey piss on the Qur'an." An email to the museum talked about "plunging the diary of Anne Frank in urine".

The French culture minister, Frédéric Mitterrand, condemned the vandalism as an attack on the fundamental freedoms of creation and expression, but recognised that the art work could shock audiences.

The secretary general of Civitas, Alan Escada, told Le Dauphiné Libéré paper: "I don't support or condemn what happened," adding that the attack on the picture "reflects an understandable exasperation" with the museum.

A police complaint has been filed by the gallery and the guards.

• This article was amended on 19 April 2011. The original referred to the Senator Jesse Helms as Jesse James. This has been corrected.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/18/andres-serrano-piss-christ-destroyed-christian-protesters

chasedude
04-19-2011, 11:55 AM
An inherent flaw in the NEA... what if someone put together an art exhibit extolling the Nazi's and the holocaust? Or an artistic set of campaign posters promoting Haley Barbour for president? When art has socio-political agendas it shouldn't be funded by the taxpayer. No matter what that agenda may be.

So it's ok for the NEA to support artists that follow what you think is appropriate art?

blaise
04-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Maybe I'm reading the link wrong, it doesn't say Catholic in the headline I see.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 11:58 AM
So it's ok for the NEA to support artists that follow what you think is appropriate art?

I'll take "Predictable Canned Questions" for $1000 Alex.

ClevelandBronco
04-19-2011, 11:59 AM
An inherent flaw in the NEA... what if someone put together an art exhibit extolling the Nazi's and the holocaust? Or an artistic set of campaign posters promoting Haley Barbour for president? When art has socio-political agendas it shouldn't be funded by the taxpayer. No matter what that agenda may be.

I'd go a step further and say that the U.S. taxpayer should never fund any art of any kind. I don't even see the state having a role. Maybe the municipality or a special taxing district that's set up with the approval of local voters, but that's about it.

One exception that I can think of though is that I guess there'd have to be some way that the paintings, statuary, etc. that decorate government buildings would be paid for out of the taxpayers' pockets.

blaise
04-19-2011, 12:00 PM
So, where are the people who say these types of threads, when they reference Muslims doing something, are bigoted?

vailpass
04-19-2011, 12:01 PM
I'd go a step further and say that the U.S. taxpayer should never fund any art of any kind. I don't even see the state having a role. Maybe the municipality or a special taxing district that's set up with the approval of local voters, but that's about it.

Yes. Let it go to the private patronage system.

orange
04-19-2011, 12:01 PM
Please.

They changed the headline. I pasted what was there when it broke. Internet is like that.

I wouldn't have bothered to add "Catholics." I have no particular bone against that religion.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 12:03 PM
So, where are the people who say these types of threads, when they reference Muslims doing something, are bigoted?

In Orange's basement helping him make a paper mache bleeding heart crafted entirely out of strips of huffpo articles.

chasedude
04-19-2011, 12:03 PM
I'll take "Predictable Canned Questions" for $1000 Alex.

I already know what your answer is.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 12:04 PM
I already know what your answer is.

Do tell.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 12:04 PM
So it's ok for the NEA to support artists that follow what you think is appropriate art?

Um, did you not read my post? That is exactly what I am saying is an inherent problem with the NEA.. who gets to define what is art and what is just propaganda? I don't see a way to remove all agendas from art and therefore you either fund ALL art (impossible) or none.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm now curious whether France has more active Catholics than it has active Muslims.

Active being the key word... I would say there are more "active" muslims. France's Catholics are mostly in name only these days.

chasedude
04-19-2011, 12:08 PM
Do tell.

Nope, nice try to pull something but I'm keeping this one to myself.

chasedude
04-19-2011, 12:09 PM
Um, did you not read my post? That is exactly what I am saying is an inherent problem with the NEA.. who gets to define what is art and what is just propaganda? I don't see a way to remove all agendas from art and therefore you either fund ALL art (impossible) or none.

I'm all for private funding only for the arts. This will control all the censorship possibilities for those that don't agree.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Um, did you not read my post? That is exactly what I am saying is an inherent problem with the NEA.. who gets to define what is art and what is just propaganda? I don't see a way to remove all agendas from art and therefore you either fund ALL art (impossible) or none.

Jesus Christ. It's a grant agency. I hope you also have as much outrage for arms of the NIH that, according to your logic, get to determine "what is science" due to their dispersal of funds.

There is nothing that says that artists who don't receive grants can't create art, it's just another method through which they can be funded.

InChiefsHell
04-19-2011, 12:26 PM
Jesus Christ. It's a grant agency. I hope you also have as much outrage for arms of the NIH that, according to your logic, get to determine "what is science" due to their dispersal of funds.

There is nothing that says that artists who don't receive grants can't create art, it's just another method through which they can be funded.

That's one of those expenses that the government should not have. Good God, why is the government even funding anything like that? The NIA I mean...and what is the NIH?

vailpass
04-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Nope, nice try to pull something but I'm keeping this one to myself.

WTF?

vailpass
04-19-2011, 12:30 PM
Jesus Christ. It's a grant agency. I hope you also have as much outrage for arms of the NIH that, according to your logic, get to determine "what is science" due to their dispersal of funds.

There is nothing that says that artists who don't receive grants can't create art, it's just another method through which they can be funded.

Yes because the ROI the government (the people) receives on investment in science is comparable to that which it receives on investment in art.

Bewbies
04-19-2011, 12:32 PM
Someone should introduce the gov't to Kickstarter.

SNR
04-19-2011, 12:49 PM
I still want to know why he can't just make another print. Did he lose the negative?He's an idiot if he did lose the negative, and probably deserves to have his art destroyed.

Art for years has always been about re-creation. Large canvases depicting masterpieces are actually not as valuable as the original portrait painted on a miniature canvas called a "cartoon". That's because in most cases, the cartoon is actually the original work of art and not the large canvas being displayed in the museum. And that's even if the artist himself worked on the canvas.

It's the same thing with etchings and photography. The negatives of this picture are where the real value is.

I would hope that Serrano still has them in his private collection.

Donger
04-19-2011, 12:52 PM
I would hope that Serrano still has them in his private collection.

I hope so, too. But, I hope they are covered in urine and feces. Now THAT would be art.

SNR
04-19-2011, 12:54 PM
I hope so, too. But, I hope they are covered in urine and feces. Now THAT would be art.
Cute. That's cute.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 01:16 PM
Jesus Christ. It's a grant agency. I hope you also have as much outrage for arms of the NIH that, according to your logic, get to determine "what is science" due to their dispersal of funds.

There is nothing that says that artists who don't receive grants can't create art, it's just another method through which they can be funded.

Yes because science is just as subjective as art... :rolleyes: even "goofy" scientific research if executed properly has some objective value. Don't be obtuse.

Also, I never said that it was about determining what is "art" it was about determining what is driven by a socio-political agenda. ANYTHING can be called art... ANYTHING.

Dave Lane
04-19-2011, 01:24 PM
I refuse to excuse this act simply because a Muslim viewing Piss Muhammad might be expected to do worse damage.

Well spoken.

Donger
04-19-2011, 01:27 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DsiM-xIbNiA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Saul Good
04-19-2011, 01:37 PM
I'd go a step further and say that the U.S. taxpayer should never fund any art of any kind. I don't even see the state having a role. Maybe the municipality or a special taxing district that's set up with the approval of local voters, but that's about it.

One exception that I can think of though is that I guess there'd have to be some way that the paintings, statuary, etc. that decorate government buildings would be paid for out of the taxpayers' pockets.

Your exception really isn't an example of directly funding art. Purchasing art that serves a decorative purpose may indirectly fund art in a small way, but it isn't the same as directly subsidizing art as a social program.

Jaric
04-19-2011, 01:47 PM
So it's ok for the NEA to support artists that follow what you think is appropriate art?

No.

We're broke as shit and need to cut back.

ROYC75
04-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Meh, idiots will be, idiots.

I wouldn't have given the idiot artist that much attention. Hell does have a price to pay.

SNR
04-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Meh, idiots will be, idiots.

I wouldn't have given the idiot artist that much attention. Hell does have a price to pay.It was premiered in 1987. Like it or not, the work already has its place in art history textbooks.

chiefsnorth
04-19-2011, 03:34 PM
Q: Is this "hate speech"?

vailpass
04-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Q: Is this "hate speech"?

The piece of "art" or the act of destruction?

SNR
04-19-2011, 04:52 PM
Q: Is this "hate speech"?I assume you mean the art, and no, it's not.

Is this art piece, The Liberation of Aunt Jemima, a racist work?

http://homepages.gac.edu/~lwren/AmericanIdentititesArt%20folder/AfAmFemale/BetyeSaar/SaarLiberationOfAuntJemima.gif

Well, talk to the artist and do some reading on its reception history, and the answer is quite obvious: it isn't.

Piss Christ has a socio-political message, one that I'm sure resonates with many Christians on this board (including myself). People get hung up on the supposed blasphemy at work, but that's not how I interpret it. And if you talk to the artist, that's far from how he interpreted it.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-19-2011, 05:55 PM
Yes because science is just as subjective as art... :rolleyes: even "goofy" scientific research if executed properly has some objective value. Don't be obtuse.

Also, I never said that it was about determining what is "art" it was about determining what is driven by a socio-political agenda. ANYTHING can be called art... ANYTHING.

Certain things have an aesthetic and intellectual value that cannot be quantified. That does not make them worthless.

vailpass
04-19-2011, 06:24 PM
Certain things have an aesthetic and intellectual value that cannot be quantified. That does not make them worthless.

Perhaps not but it certainly makes them expendable during times of budget crisis.

el borracho
04-19-2011, 07:02 PM
Let me know when this guy is in jail and I can mail him photos of piss christ.

AustinChief
04-19-2011, 07:27 PM
Certain things have an aesthetic and intellectual value that cannot be quantified. That does not make them worthless.

You are reading too much into my posts. I am not saying anything is worthless, just not a wise use of government funds.

Otter
04-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Muslims break stuff every day. orange is obviously hate mongering against Catholics.

All the Florida minister do is burn the koran in the name of art and it would all be OK.