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Tribal Warfare
04-26-2011, 01:47 AM
Tackle crop not as strong if Chiefs go that direction (http://www.kansascity.com/2011/04/24/2823424/tackle-crop-not-as-strong-if-chiefs.html)
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star

If the Chiefs are looking to improve at offensive tackle — and they don’t seem thrilled with either of their two current starters — they should have shopped the draft last year. Then, plenty of top prospects were available.

The task would be more difficult this year, if it’s what the Chiefs choose to do.

“It’s really a class that lacks an elite superstar,” Pro Football Weekly draft analyst Nolan Nawrocki said. “Physically, the guy that has the most talent in this class is Tyron Smith, but there are a lot of concerns. He played at only 280 pounds at USC and he had a lot of trouble grasping the playbook. Guys that make a lot of mental errors and miss assignments, it’s a problem on the offensive line.

“Whether he’s the most sound pro, I have serious reservations. There are guys who are a little bit (safer), more sound, more consistent.”

Compare that to last year, when top prospects such as Russell Okung, Anthony Davis and Bryan Bulaga were available to the Chiefs with their first pick.

“I think last year’s tackles were better,” NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock said. “It was a better class.”

The Chiefs have Branden Albert at left tackle and Barry Richardson on the right side. Neither has established himself as a quality starter. The current administration of general manager Scott Pioli and coach Todd Haley inherited both players. Haley recently gave Albert a less than resounding vote of confidence when he said Albert would be the starter again at left tackle “as long as he’s the best one.”

But, looking at how Pioli drafted with the Patriots and now with the Chiefs, he seems to believe tackles can be found in lower rounds.

“If you look at the history of New England and how they’ve built their roster, they just in general have not drafted tackles very highly,” Nawrocki said. “Bill Belichick has been able to conceal the shortcomings with his edge blockers by providing a lot of (help from backs and tight ends). It’s just the way they scheme them.

“One thing that’s very clear is that there’s a need. I thought they should have addressed it last year in the draft. I think Barry Richardson has been a solid guy. I think he’s very committed. He’s not great and wasn’t drafted highly and may not have a big name but he’s been a solid player and I think they feel fairly comfortable with him there.

“They trust (Albert) on that left side. The issues have been more about being able to control his weight and staying disciplined than any issue about the talent. I think they feel comfortable there. Could they draft a tackle? Absolutely. It’s all going to be a function of what type of talent is available on the board at the time they come up.”

After USC’s Smith, who will probably be gone by the time the Chiefs make the 21st overall pick, the top tackles in the draft include Boston College’s Anthony Castonzo, Colorado’s Nate Solder and Wisconsin’s Gabe Carimi.

“(This year) you can pick apart some of their games,” Mayock said. “Costanzo to me is the next logical guy. Some teams think he’s a right tackle and some teams think he can make it on the left side. …

“Carimi is not a great athlete. He’s a technician and a tough guy. He’s a right tackle and maybe a guard.”

keg in kc
04-26-2011, 03:02 AM
Man, I sure wish they'd taken Okung, Davis or Bulaga instead of that scrub safety.

Hog Farmer
04-26-2011, 03:13 AM
Agreed. I just cannot believe we wasted our 1st round pick. All it did was make us draft lower this year.

BigRock
04-26-2011, 03:14 AM
If Teicher ever writes a good article about the draft, he should put it on a shelf called "my good draft articles", where it will ultimately die a slow, painful death brought on by sheer loneliness.

Just Passin' By
04-26-2011, 03:18 AM
“One thing that’s very clear is that there’s a need. I thought they should have addressed it last year in the draft. I think Barry Richardson has been a solid guy. I think he’s very committed. He’s not great and wasn’t drafted highly and may not have a big name but he’s been a solid player and I think they feel fairly comfortable with him there.

“They trust (Albert) on that left side. The issues have been more about being able to control his weight and staying disciplined than any issue about the talent. I think they feel comfortable there. Could they draft a tackle? Absolutely. It’s all going to be a function of what type of talent is available on the board at the time they come up.”

:spock:

HemiEd
04-26-2011, 08:51 AM
Another wasted two minutes.

ChiefsCountry
04-26-2011, 09:03 AM
Man, I sure wish they'd taken Okung, Davis or Bulaga instead of that scrub safety.

Sac is a fucking idiot for thinking that.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 09:15 AM
Man, I sure wish they'd taken Okung, Davis or Bulaga instead of that scrub safety.

The hypothetical is that the Chiefs could have taken Bulaga or Okung last year, and then, with their first second round pick (which they spent on McCluster) they could have selected Nate Allen or TJ Ward, both of whom went right after the McCluster pick. Allen had a very good year and Ward had as good a year, and arguably better, then Berry.

I know that's sacrilege around these here parts and irrelevant because what's done is done. Just a hindsight observation as we head into the 2011 Draft.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2011, 09:15 AM
Who writes these headlines? Holy god.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2011, 09:18 AM
The hypothetical is that the Chiefs could have taken Bulaga or Okung last year, and then, with their first second round pick (which they spent on McCluster) they could have selected Nate Allen or TJ Ward, both of whom went right after the McCluster pick. Allen had a very good year and Ward had as good a year, and arguably better, then Berry.

I know that's sacrilege around these here parts and irrelevant because what's done is done. Just a hindsight observation as we head into the 2011 Draft.

LOL at TJ Ward being better than Eric Berry last year.

Brock
04-26-2011, 09:24 AM
The hypothetical is that the Chiefs could have taken Bulaga or Okung last year, and then, with their first second round pick (which they spent on McCluster) they could have selected Nate Allen or TJ Ward, both of whom went right after the McCluster pick. Allen had a very good year and Ward had as good a year, and arguably better, then Berry.

I know that's sacrilege around these here parts and irrelevant because what's done is done. Just a hindsight observation as we head into the 2011 Draft.

Epic troll post.

the Talking Can
04-26-2011, 09:27 AM
The hypothetical is that the Chiefs could have taken Bulaga or Okung last year, and then, with their first second round pick (which they spent on McCluster) they could have selected Nate Allen or TJ Ward, both of whom went right after the McCluster pick. Allen had a very good year and Ward had as good a year, and arguably better, then Berry.

I know that's sacrilege around these here parts and irrelevant because what's done is done. Just a hindsight observation as we head into the 2011 Draft.

Berry is better than any player listed in your rehashed stupidity....he's Elite in his physical and football skills


but yeah, we should have passed on a generational player at Safety to draft a fucking RT....saccofbats in all his glory

The Bad Guy
04-26-2011, 09:32 AM
Berry is better than any player listed in your rehashed stupidity....he's Elite in his physical and football skills


but yeah, we should have passed on a generational player at Safety to draft a ****ing RT....saccofbats in all his glory

Saccoshit's draft knowledge is rivaled only by Nick Athan.

SNR
04-26-2011, 09:43 AM
Great. So we could have had a less talented starter at safety AND a starting tackle like Bulaga or Okung, both of whom were just as mediocre as Brandon Albert in his rookie year and might not solve their teams' problems?

But at least Albert/Richardson would have been sitting on the bench! Shit, imagine how good we'd be right now

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 09:49 AM
LOL at TJ Ward being better than Eric Berry last year.

LOL at you for thinking he wasn't.

Like I said - sacrilege.

Fish
04-26-2011, 09:49 AM
The hypothetical is that the Chiefs could have taken Bulaga or Okung last year, and then, with their first second round pick (which they spent on McCluster) they could have selected Nate Allen or TJ Ward, both of whom went right after the McCluster pick. Allen had a very good year and Ward had as good a year, and arguably better, then Berry.

I know that's sacrilege around these here parts and irrelevant because what's done is done. Just a hindsight observation as we head into the 2011 Draft.

:facepalm:

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4464/stupiddreams3002968511.gif

SNR
04-26-2011, 09:59 AM
LOL at you for thinking he wasn't.

Like I said - sacrilege.Kendrick Lewis at one point was better than Berry last year as well. Most around here would agree.

By the time the season ended Berry was a fucking stud and deserved that Pro Bowl nomination. They don't just hand those things out to rookies. It usually goes to washed up veterans who have a name.

L.A. Chieffan
04-26-2011, 10:09 AM
we should probably just draft a taclke at every pick that way we have a better chance of getting a good one

KC Tattoo
04-26-2011, 10:18 AM
I know I am in the minority here, but I really like B Richardson at RT. I think he can make huge progress this year with having a full year of starting behind him. Brandon Alberts I like him too but he leaves a little less to be sure of at LT. I think center is our most pressing issue along the Oline.


Now I would love to get a hands WR opposite of D Bowe. One that can catch it 5 to ten yards away from him as Cassels accuracy provides.


Mostly I dream of drafting a QBotf. At this point I think there are several candidates that would be cool to get so am not stuck on one guy. Just draft a QB to give future hope if Cassel fails to deliver. We can have best of both worlds. Cassel can suck it up and prove he is worthy after all & have a guy prepared to take the reins away when his time comes. The average retread QB for the Chiefs last aprox two years and Cassel is on his third. So I don't expect him to be around after this season if he fails.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 11:32 AM
Kendrick Lewis at one point was better than Berry last year as well. Most around here would agree.

By the time the season ended Berry was a ****ing stud and deserved that Pro Bowl nomination. They don't just hand those things out to rookies. It usually goes to washed up veterans who have a name.

And?

I simply said that Ward had as good a season as Berry, and it could be argued that he had an even better season. He finished the year with 31 more tackles, one more tackle for loss, one more block, one more pass defended and two less interceptions than Berry.

Bewbies
04-26-2011, 11:37 AM
LOL at you for thinking he wasn't.

Like I said - sacrilege.

I may have missed it, did TJ Ward start the Pro-Bowl? Was he on the team?

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-26-2011, 11:38 AM
And?

I simply said that Ward had as good a season as Berry, and it could be argued that he had an even better season. He finished the year with 31 more tackles, one more tackle for loss, one more block, one more pass defended and two less interceptions than Berry.

No it really can't be argued. I showed you how decieving stats are when I posted Mike Brown's the other day. You are either trolling or being foolish over this.

Bewbies
04-26-2011, 11:39 AM
I know I am in the minority here, but I really like B Richardson at RT. I think he can make huge progress this year with having a full year of starting behind him. Brandon Alberts I like him too but he leaves a little less to be sure of at LT. I think center is our most pressing issue along the Oline.


Now I would love to get a hands WR opposite of D Bowe. One that can catch it 5 to ten yards away from him as Cassels accuracy provides.


Mostly I dream of drafting a QBotf. At this point I think there are several candidates that would be cool to get so am not stuck on one guy. Just draft a QB to give future hope if Cassel fails to deliver. We can have best of both worlds. Cassel can suck it up and prove he is worthy after all & have a guy prepared to take the reins away when his time comes. The average retread QB for the Chiefs last aprox two years and Cassel is on his third. So I don't expect him to be around after this season if he fails.

I don't think either of our OT's are All-World or anything, but the biggest problem on our O-line is our QB.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2011, 11:45 AM
LOL at you for thinking he wasn't.

Like I said - sacrilege.

Start watching actual NFL games and stop trolling message boards for your information.

The Bad Guy
04-26-2011, 11:47 AM
And?

I simply said that Ward had as good a season as Berry, and it could be argued that he had an even better season. He finished the year with 31 more tackles, one more tackle for loss, one more block, one more pass defended and two less interceptions than Berry.

Another big LOL at your analysis. Way to read that stat sheet.

You are this boards very own version of Epic Fail.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 11:53 AM
No it really can't be argued. I showed you how decieving stats are when I posted Mike Brown's the other day. You are either trolling or being foolish over this.

I'd like to know why it can't be argued. Since I'm the one being foolish, which, I guess, makes you the reasonable one, I'd like to know why you think that it's so black and white in terms of comparison (or black and white in terms of there shouldn't be a comparison).

Ward plays the same position as Berry in a similar scheme.

Why can't a comparison of their statistics be considered as a valid comparative tool when looking at the two players?

You seem to be quite emphatic about it, so I'd really like to know why.

SNR
04-26-2011, 11:58 AM
And?

I simply said that Ward had as good a season as Berry, and it could be argued that he had an even better season. He finished the year with 31 more tackles, one more tackle for loss, one more block, one more pass defended and two less interceptions than Berry.You're obviously trying to play Xeno right now.

Neither of us liked the McCluster pick, but that doesn't mean you get to take it out of the equation when you do your if-the-Chiefs-took-a-LT-in-the-first. If you get to do it, then I get to as well.

So you would end up with a dream draft of Okung and Ward. Cool. I'll take Berry and Terrence Cody, then.

Still want Okung and Ward? I mean, you probably do, but then again you're one weird fucking cat.

KC Tattoo
04-26-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't think either of our OT's are All-World or anything, but the biggest problem on our O-line is our QB.

Yea, I agree our OTs arn't "All World" but there not that bad that we need to discount there growth and allow them to to continue to get better for this team to be successful. We've had great O-lines in the past and still havn't got past the first round of playoffs with them. We need more than that, imo we need a guy under center that is a leader or will become a leader as he develops with the team for long term that can get the ball to the play makers. If only there was some sort of way to pick a guy fresh out of college that we can build our future hopes around. Somebody not tainted with other NFL teams that has a learning desire & hunger to win. Is that too much to ask?

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Start watching actual NFL games and stop trolling message boards for your information.

Oh noes! Not the dreaded CP moron insult of "you don't watch games."

First off, you don't have a clue as to what I watch, so, just by stating that, you are making yourself out to be an ignorant jackass.

Second, like I said, it has become sacrilege to even question the deity status of Eric Berry here on the Chiefs Planet. God (Berry) forgive me that I actually compared his play to that of another rookie who plays the exact same position in a similar scheme. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Yowser!

Third, if you watched the games yourself, you'd be aware of the fact that Berry accumulated pretty damn good statistics that belied his actual on-the-field performance for the vast majority of the year.

As one of the other idiots so conveniently pointed out, Berry's stats were quite similar to Brown's stats. In fact, Berry was giving up more touchdowns than Brown, particularly in the passing game, where he was consistently out of position. However, Brown was crucified for it, whereas Berry has been deified.

Berry ended up being a third linebacker for the majority of the season because of his inability to correctly read and adjust to the passing game, accumulating much of his tackles playing up on the run behind Belcher. (Probably most due to the fact that they used Belcher to actively engage guards as our NT and RDE struggled to do so consistently against better offensive lines.)

And that's not necessarily a bad thing to have a rookie strong safety do when a team is weak along the defensive line, but particularly strong at the cornerback position.

But to actively bitch about a comparison between Berry and Ward, when they played almost identical roles is, in a word, stupid. But then, seeing the guys who are bitching about such a comparison...well, they aren't the most, um, savvy lot around here.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 12:19 PM
You're obviously trying to play Xeno right now.

Neither of us liked the McCluster pick, but that doesn't mean you get to take it out of the equation when you do your if-the-Chiefs-took-a-LT-in-the-first. If you get to do it, then I get to as well.

So you would end up with a dream draft of Okung and Ward. Cool. I'll take Berry and Terrence Cody, then.

Still want Okung and Ward? I mean, you probably do, but then again you're one weird ****ing cat.

Just posting as it relates to the thread and the original post, which was a hypothetical hindsight post of "perhaps the Chiefs should have took an offensive lineman last year."

It wasn't my OP.

I simply stated that if they took Okung or Bulaga, as was "suggested" in the OP, that they could have taken a guy like Nate Allen or TJ Ward in the second round and still have got a quality starting safety along with a solid tackle.

If we follow your suggestion of simply redoing the whole draft, I would be/would have been fine with Berry in the first and Beadles with the first pick in the second. However, I was kinda just going with the OP and what they were suggesting.

Bewbies
04-26-2011, 01:45 PM
Oh noes! Not the dreaded CP moron insult of "you don't watch games."

First off, you don't have a clue as to what I watch, so, just by stating that, you are making yourself out to be an ignorant jackass.

Second, like I said, it has become sacrilege to even question the deity status of Eric Berry here on the Chiefs Planet. God (Berry) forgive me that I actually compared his play to that of another rookie who plays the exact same position in a similar scheme. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Yowser!

Third, if you watched the games yourself, you'd be aware of the fact that Berry accumulated pretty damn good statistics that belied his actual on-the-field performance for the vast majority of the year.

As one of the other idiots so conveniently pointed out, Berry's stats were quite similar to Brown's stats. In fact, Berry was giving up more touchdowns than Brown, particularly in the passing game, where he was consistently out of position. However, Brown was crucified for it, whereas Berry has been deified.

Berry ended up being a third linebacker for the majority of the season because of his inability to correctly read and adjust to the passing game, accumulating much of his tackles playing up on the run behind Belcher. (Probably most due to the fact that they used Belcher to actively engage guards as our NT and RDE struggled to do so consistently against better offensive lines.)

And that's not necessarily a bad thing to have a rookie strong safety do when a team is weak along the defensive line, but particularly strong at the cornerback position.

But to actively bitch about a comparison between Berry and Ward, when they played almost identical roles is, in a word, stupid. But then, seeing the guys who are bitching about such a comparison...well, they aren't the most, um, savvy lot around here.

GENIOUS!!

JohnnyV13
04-26-2011, 02:50 PM
And?

I simply said that Ward had as good a season as Berry, and it could be argued that he had an even better season. He finished the year with 31 more tackles, one more tackle for loss, one more block, one more pass defended and two less interceptions than Berry.

And in 2009, the Chiefs were in the bottom five in passer rating against when blitzing a defensive back.

Last year, the Chiefs had the best pass defense in the league when blitzing a D back.

Guess Eric Berry didn't have anything to do with that drastic improvement.

ChiefMojo
04-26-2011, 03:32 PM
One thing about drafting someone like Carimi or Solder at #21 is that you can move Richardson inside to a starting G spot in the very near future. Not only that, but you have a quality swing OT if either Albert or lets say Carimi went down.

Waters, Wiegmann and to an extent Lilja aren't going to be playing forever.

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-26-2011, 03:34 PM
And in 2009, the Chiefs were in the bottom five in passer rating against when blitzing a defensive back.

Last year, the Chiefs had the best pass defense in the league when blitzing a D back.

Guess Eric Berry didn't have anything to do with that drastic improvement.

...or the improved run defense. He might be the only person alive besides TJ Ward and his family that thinks the guy is in Berry's league as far as football instincts and talent.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 04:45 PM
And in 2009, the Chiefs were in the bottom five in passer rating against when blitzing a defensive back.

Last year, the Chiefs had the best pass defense in the league when blitzing a D back.

Guess Eric Berry didn't have anything to do with that drastic improvement.

I'd say it was substantially more due to Crennel's scheme than Eric Berry or Javier Arenas' (who was very successful in both college and his rookie year at blitzing - 3 sacks in 2010) individual efforts. Although, having superb athletes who are effective blitzers from the defensive backfield helps.

Rams Fan
04-26-2011, 04:48 PM
Okung wasn't even the best tackle in the 2010 draft, if you compare his statistics to other rookie tackles that is.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 05:02 PM
Okung wasn't even the best tackle in the 2010 draft, if you compare his statistics to other rookie tackles that is.

Okay...

And?

Rams Fan
04-26-2011, 05:04 PM
Okay...

And?

Would you have rather had the Chiefs taken an OL besides Bulaga or Okung?

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 05:23 PM
...or the improved run defense. He might be the only person alive besides TJ Ward and his family that thinks the guy is in Berry's league as far as football instincts and talent.

So, the improved run defense is a key factor?

Comparing KC's run defense to Cleveland's:

2009:
KC:
YPA: 4.7
TDs: 18
1st Down% on rushes: 23.0

Cleveland:
YPA: 4.6
TDs: 15
1st%: 23.7

2010:
KC:
YPA: 4.3
TDs: 11
1st%: 21.6

Clev:
YPA: 4.1
TDs: 7
1st%: 20.2

Yikes! It seems that Cleveland actually had better improvements in their rush defense than Kansas City did. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with Ward's play. Although, you did infer that it was Berry who was responsible for KC's increased run defense numbers...hmmmmm.

keg in kc
04-26-2011, 05:24 PM
I don't think either of our OT's are All-World or anything, but the biggest problem on our O-line is our QB.I would disagree that the biggest problem with our o-line was Cassel. That was true to a degree in '09, but I thought he improved more than probably any of us could have imagined in terms of getting the ball out. The problems were pressure up the middle and what looked like completely whiffed (or misread) blocking assignments at pretty much every spot on the line. There would be plays, and this happened all season, but particularly late, where defenders would arrive literally a fraction of a second behind the snap. That's not something you lay on the QB. Yes, he did have his moments, but it was not 2009 where he was getting himself sacked. And I think the numbers bear that out (26...).

I've said this until I'm blue in the face, but I think Wiegmann's where we need to look. He's a great guy, and he's had a great career, but he wasn't the same player late in the year, whether it was his weight (which supposedly drops into the 260's or 270's as the season wears on) or his age. It didn't show as much in the run game, but when we had to pass...

JMO of course.

And this is in no way saying Cassel is great or that he doesn't have other issues.

Not sure how I feel about Muir, either. I'm not sold on the line coaching, but I wouldn't pretend to be anything even approaching an expert.

Saccopoo
04-26-2011, 05:24 PM
Would you have rather had the Chiefs taken an OL besides Bulaga or Okung?

In the first round?

No.

Saccopoo
04-27-2011, 12:32 AM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ebolapox
04-27-2011, 05:24 AM
jesus fucking christ, it never ends. we get a gift from god and you question it? fuck, man.

Dave Lane
04-27-2011, 07:45 AM
One thing about drafting someone like Carimi or Solder at #21 is that you can move Richardson inside to a starting G spot in the very near future. Not only that, but you have a quality swing OT if either Albert or lets say Carimi went down.

Waters, Wiegmann and to an extent Lilja aren't going to be playing forever.

This year we need a B-B+ type of OL from somewhere FA or the draft. If not the OL will be a debacle next year.

Pasta Giant Meatball
04-27-2011, 05:02 PM
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There is no point in extending this discussion any further. You can not be reasoned with in your crusade to vindicate your obsession with Okung 1 year ago. It's sad that this is still going on.