PDA

View Full Version : General Politics White House releases Obama's birth certificate


Pages : 1 [2]

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 12:11 AM
I don't know. You tell me what all this means, if anything.

orange
04-28-2011, 12:29 AM
It obviously means they took a legitimate birth certificate for the child of Mrs. unham Obama - completely unrelated, mind you - and doctored it up by adding in the (Stanley) Ann D.

Why, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 12:33 AM
It obviously means they took a legitimate birth certificate for the child of Mrs. unham Obama - completely unrelated, mind you - and doctored it up by adding in the (Stanley) Ann D.

Why, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

Thanks. Always helpful to hear from an expert.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 12:35 AM
So we can conclude that Obama was a citizen at birth? Pre-Indonesia?

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 12:38 AM
So we can conclude that Obama was a citizen at birth? Pre-Indonesia?

I have no reason to believe otherwise.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 12:41 AM
I have no reason to believe otherwise.

At this rate Soetoro errr Obama will be out of office before we hear any results about Indonesia.

Phobia
04-28-2011, 01:19 AM
I don't get too wrapped up into politics any longer because most of it is a waste of time. But every last one of these questions should have been answered BEFORE the election. Each document produced 3 years afterwards is tainted and suspect. If the document was available previously why not release it to silence critics? Why now? Oh yeah, he's mounting a re-election bid.

It is not likely that I'll vote for Obama. It just depends on who goes against him. But this document doesn't help me answer the questions that are out there about his citizenship.

patteeu
04-28-2011, 01:25 AM
I don't get too wrapped up into politics any longer because most of it is a waste of time. But every last one of these questions should have been answered BEFORE the election. Each document produced 3 years afterwards is tainted and suspect. If the document was available previously why not release it to silence critics? Why now? Oh yeah, he's mounting a re-election bid.

It is not likely that I'll vote for Obama. It just depends on who goes against him. But this document doesn't help me answer the questions that are out there about his citizenship.

Is it because he's black or because he's the worst president in modern history? ;)

Phobia
04-28-2011, 01:27 AM
Is it because he's black or because he's the worst president in modern history? ;)

He's black?

patteeu
04-28-2011, 01:31 AM
He's black?

:LOL:

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 01:31 AM
He's black?

I knew it!

orange
04-28-2011, 02:00 AM
Thanks. Always helpful to hear from an expert.

Here, not from an expert but helpful nonetheless:


5. It has layers! That means it's a fraud!

This is IMO the most difficult of the objections raised to date. When I first saw that particular news, I thought, "Wow!"

However, according to Freeper GunRunner, Adobe Acrobat (when used with certain settings) runs Optical Character Recognition and separates a scanned image into layers. As GunRunner explains:

"When you scan something into a PDF, Acrobat scans the text into different layers and makes the text searchable."

"You can deactivate it when you scan something into a PDF, but whoever scanned it obviously forgot to turn it off, and now because of this we will be treated to many more years of wild conspiracy theories, all because some government employee made a rookie mistake. "

A good clue about the nature of these layers is found in all of the little stray letters left behind. Virtually every kind of visual element that you or I would consider a cohesive whole is split up.

"None" is split into "Non" and "e." The "D" splits off of "Dunham." The bottom signature is split up, too. Both date stamps at bottom are split into different layers, though in different places. The "R" is split out of "BARACK." In the tiny print you can catch split-out bits of words. "add" "Co"

All of this speaks to a machine driven process, not something that a human being has designed from elements cut and pasted together.

Or, to put it another way: It would take a LOT of time for a human being to split an image up in this way and then reassemble it into the image we see. And there would be no reason to do it that way. Why spend 50 hours cutting a document into all kinds of crazy little pieces?

Especially if you were trying to create a forgery? Just doesn’t make any sense that way.

Freeper reegs also CONFIRMED that this happens, by first printing the PDF as supplied by the White House, then re-scanning it into a new PDF.

He found that the scanning process DID separate the PDF into layers. Interestingly, it appears to have separated out the middle "R" in BARACK out just as in the original layered PDF:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2711500/posts?page=46#33

6. But perhaps the layers with little bits were touch-ups that somebody forgot to merge.

Good thought, however touch-ups done in graphic programs are usually done to an existing element. In other words, if these were touch-ups, the text would most likely also exist in the main text layer. A close watching of the following video shows this is NOT the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgVIei87oFo

There’s another important issue here which has not been addressed. The text is curved at the appropriate place at left. This makes no sense whatsoever for a document “constructed” by somebody typing in text. Who would first type in text, put it in a book, photograph it, then mix that curved graphic image with other (typed in) letters? Ignoring the enormous needless effort you would spend doing things, you couldn’t possibly get a good result that way.

It just makes no sense. No, the right explanation is the simple one: the layers were created by a software program trying to make sense of, and do OCR on, a scanned image.

7. But there's white around the letters! That means it's a fraud!

Freeper Dick Holmes reposts a Youtube comment clarifying why there's white around the letters:

"Notice how when you hide a layer, it's white behind it? If it was truly forged, you wouldn't see any of the background missing. It's white because it doesn't know what's& behind the text BECAUSE THE TEXT WAS THERE WHEN IT WAS SCANNED."

GunRunner confirms this: "Look at the green background layer. It's not a static green pattern but has white lines carved out where the text should be. It's not like a Photoshop layer."

Therefore this is a natural artifact of the software separating the scanned image into layers.

Not HuffingtonPost (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2711660/posts)

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 02:20 AM
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2711500/posts?page=46#33

Yeah, I was just on that site reading the various points of view. Some claim to know it's a fake because of their experience. Some claim to know it's genuine because of their experience. Not helpful at all.

One thing I can tell, you have no frame of reference for what you're reading. I do.

orange
04-28-2011, 02:33 AM
Yeah, I was just on that site reading the various points of view. Some claim to know it's a fake because of their experience. Some claim to know it's genuine because of their experience. Not helpful at all.

One thing I can tell, you have no frame of reference for what you're reading. I do.

What about this guy?

To: Talisker
Did you NOT see my post above???
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2711500/posts?page=33#33 Scanning a document to a PDF DOES CREATE LAYERS! I'VE DONE IT!


49 posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:18:02 PM by reegs
Does HE have a frame of reference?

He CLAIMS that he did this:

The PDF layer issue is a dead end. I've verified it myself. I printed the PDF as supplied by the White House. At my place of work, we have copiers that can scan a document, save it as a PDF and email it to yourself. After scanning the print out and sending it to myself as a PDF, I opened the PDF in Adobe Illustrator.
As you can see from the image below, the scanning software DID seperate elements as can be seen by the Illustrator handles. These would be picked up as separate layers. I was able to move these elements including the black type. Moving the type did leave a white area beneath it.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2937/bc2hu.jpg

Is he full of it? Or maybe he's in on the conspiracy.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 02:44 AM
Do you think there's a conspiracy? I don't.

I understand fully everything this guy you're enamored with is saying. I understand these processes thoroughly. I understand the capabilities of the equipment and the software.

I wouldn't take anyone I don't know anything about at his word, though. If you need to, have at it.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 02:58 AM
The thing is, orange, I see things in this document that I could duplicate in any number of ways. What I can't understand at all is why the President of the United States, a man with access to the foremost document experts on the planet, would post this hash of a document as any kind of definitive answer to the questions he seeks to put to rest.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 06:44 AM
7. But there's white around the letters! That means it's a fraud!

Freeper Dick Holmes reposts a Youtube comment clarifying why there's white around the letters:

"Notice how when you hide a layer, it's white behind it? If it was truly forged, you wouldn't see any of the background missing. It's white because it doesn't know what's& behind the text BECAUSE THE TEXT WAS THERE WHEN IT WAS SCANNED."

GunRunner confirms this: "Look at the green background layer. It's not a static green pattern but has white lines carved out where the text should be. It's not like a Photoshop layer."

Therefore this is a natural artifact of the software separating the scanned image into layers.

Not HuffingtonPost (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2711660/posts)[/INDENT]


That's true it's not like a Photoshop or an Illustrator layer which baffled me. I've never seen anything like that before. But it did match the text still, also baffling me. ( I have not checked that number in the upper right though.)

Another thing I'd like to add about the first post showing the layers, regarding the pattern allegedly being created in Illustrator. That claim is completely false and ignorant of the program because the pattern when blown up becomes pixelated. If it were an Illustrator-created pattern it would be a vector because Illustrator is a vector program. Generally though, vectors blow up without losing their hard clean edges—the beauty of the program. ( unlike PS). Although it can be rasterized afterwards if one wanted but I generally never do that when I work in Illustrator. I use it when I need vectors.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 06:48 AM
What about this guy?

To: Talisker
Did you NOT see my post above???
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2711500/posts?page=33#33 Scanning a document to a PDF DOES CREATE LAYERS! I'VE DONE IT!


49 posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:18:02 PM by reegs
Does HE have a frame of reference?

He CLAIMS that he did this:

The PDF layer issue is a dead end. I've verified it myself. I printed the PDF as supplied by the White House. At my place of work, we have copiers that can scan a document, save it as a PDF and email it to yourself. After scanning the print out and sending it to myself as a PDF, I opened the PDF in Adobe Illustrator.
As you can see from the image below, the scanning software DID seperate elements as can be seen by the Illustrator handles. These would be picked up as separate layers. I was able to move these elements including the black type. Moving the type did leave a white area beneath it.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2937/bc2hu.jpg

Is he full of it? Or maybe he's in on the conspiracy.

Wow! Learn something new everyday. I knew I could count on a pdf to be separated into layers if it was first created in Illustrator but I never saw optical scanning do it. I have a scanner and I have two printers ( one large format). I suppose I could print it out and then scan it to see what happens. I just always thought it had to have layers to begin with. I normally don't have need to ever deal with a scan or pdf this way. ( only when I create something in Illustrator or even PS which can also separate the layers of a PDF if created with them at the beginning.)

banyon
04-28-2011, 06:49 AM
Ha Ha.

where are the people that were telling me that this would put the issue to rest and there wouldn't be people claiming it is a forgery. LMAO

Where's Sportshrink's big forgery thread. Countdown 5 hours...

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 07:04 AM
Check out what this person discovered. The last number in the serial number when blown up and one of the dates down at the bottom.



Okay. I just saw your video. I didn't look at the chromatic haloing and didn't notice it offhand. I also didn't notice the difference in blurriness of the two green papers. I did wonder why it had two though and I looked for how they lined up more. He makes some good points though.

Chief Henry
04-28-2011, 07:20 AM
[QUOTE=Phobia;7597929]I don't get too wrapped up into politics any longer because most of it is a waste of time. But every last one of these questions should have been answered BEFORE the election. Each document produced 3 years afterwards is tainted and suspect. If the document was available previously why not release it to silence critics? Why now? Oh yeah, he's mounting a re-election bid.

QUOTE]



Well said, but now you are a racist piece of white trash.

Chief Henry
04-28-2011, 07:39 AM
Check out what this person discovered. The last number in the serial number when blown up and one of the dates down at the bottom.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2eOfYwYyS_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>







How long before CBS's show-60 Minutes will be along to interview this man and do a complete hour long documentary on this mans expertise analysts ?

Do you think Dan Rather and his crack staff of journalists who hounded
W about his National Guard history will look into this ?

For Obama's water carriers, it looks like you have been manipulated AGAIN.

mlyonsd
04-28-2011, 07:58 AM
"Today I'm very proud of myself, because I've accomplished something that nobody else has been able to accomplish," he said.


http://www.digitalspy.com/celebrity/news/a316807/trump-proud-of-himself-for-obama-birth-reveal.html

ROFL Gawd Trump makes me laugh.

Chiefshrink
04-28-2011, 08:28 AM
The thing is, orange, I see things in this document that I could duplicate in any number of ways. What I can't understand at all is why the President of the United States, a man with access to the foremost document experts on the planet, would post this hash of a document as any kind of definitive answer to the questions he seeks to put to rest.


:clap: Precisely:thumb:

If you listen to Obama's words yesterday he say's "there will be a segment of those"(Obama is actually referring to the 'experts' here IMO, knowing that most who here these words will assume he is talking about the "birthers") trying to cushion the blow of alleged forgery.

FWIW, I am listening to Boyles now and I can't tell you how many of his callers who are computer graphic professionals that have called in to say this is totally a fraud. And all of these callers stated this is not even a good forgery.

Because Boyles is no expert he has invited one of the callers in to show how this was done and Boyles and this caller will create their own video on this forgery. It will be up on his website tomorrow.

Chiefshrink
04-28-2011, 08:31 AM
How long before CBS's show-60 Minutes will be along to interview this man and do a complete hour long documentary on this mans expertise analysts ?

Do you think Dan Rather and his crack staff of journalists who hounded
W about his National Guard history will look into this ?

For Obama's water carriers, it looks like you have been manipulated AGAIN.

Get ready for the "smear" on this guy but it may not happen "IF" there is a continued 'tidal wave' of experts that come out claiming "forgery".

Chiefshrink
04-28-2011, 08:34 AM
Ha Ha.

where are the people that were telling me that this would put the issue to rest and there wouldn't be people claiming it is a forgery. LMAO

Where's Sportshrink's big forgery thread. Countdown 5 hours...

What say you banyon? You buy this certificate? Be careful how you answer now because you don't wan't to have a "Dan Rather" moment:thumb:

The_Grand_Illusion
04-28-2011, 08:47 AM
Okay. I just saw your video. I didn't look at the chromatic haloing and didn't notice it offhand. I also didn't notice the difference in blurriness of the two green papers. I did wonder why it had two though and I looked for how they lined up more. He makes some good points though.

Yeah, I read a little on the layering issues with Adobe but as he pointed out, it doesn't explain these inconsistencies though.

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af314/usanevada/misc/birth-cert-fake-10641.jpg

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af314/usanevada/misc/birth-cert-fake-1961.jpg

The_Grand_Illusion
04-28-2011, 08:48 AM
How long before CBS's show-60 Minutes will be along to interview this man and do a complete hour long documentary on this mans expertise analysts ?

Do you think Dan Rather and his crack staff of journalists who hounded
W about his National Guard history will look into this ?

For Obama's water carriers, it looks like you have been manipulated AGAIN.

LOL, I'm sure Dan and his crack staff will be on it right away. Fake, but accurate birth certificate, lol.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 08:49 AM
Yeah I saw it. To be honest the grayer or lighter tone of black did not show on my screen. That can happen between different screens. I don't know if he used a Mac or a PC. PCs don't have built in color management. I am not saying it's not there. I'd have to look again. The chromatic halo on the numeral "1" is troubling though.

The_Grand_Illusion
04-28-2011, 08:53 AM
Yeah I saw it. To be honest the grayer or lighter tone of black did not show on my screen. That can happen between different screens. I don't know if he used a Mac or a PC. PCs don't have built in color management. I am not saying it's not there. I'd have to look again. The chromatic halo on the numeral "1" is troubling though.

Clevelandbronco's scan earlier caught the same inconsistency on the "1" too.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 09:03 AM
Clevelandbronco's scan earlier caught the same inconsistency on the "1" too.

Yes I saw it. But there's no chromatic haloing on the lower one just a tonal inconsistency. That I can see anyway.
This will create enough reasonable doubt but not in everyone.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:01 AM
http://www.martialartsgear.com/Elephants/images/elephant1.gifhttp://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/02/17/elephant_narrowweb__300x427,0.jpg

One is an elephant. One is a picture of an elephant.


(Actually, there both just pictures, but the point remains)

You all do realize you don't have the actual document in your hands, don't you?

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 10:03 AM
You all do realize you don't have the actual document in your hands, don't you?

Yes I do, which is why I have avoid any conclusive statements. In fact I still leaned to Obama's side. Your point? Or are you saying Trump should fly to Hawaii and personally view it? It' may only be on microfiche or microfilm anyway. Hawaii doesn't have a lot of land space for physical files.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:07 AM
Yes I do, which is why I have avoid any conclusive statements. In fact I still leaned to Obama's side. Your point?

My point is that deconstructing the layers on the pdf is ludicrous.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 10:14 AM
My point is that deconstructing the layers on the pdf is ludicrous.

Well, I showed that I thought. Please read.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:15 AM
You all do realize you don't have the actual document in your hands, don't you?

You're wrong. We have the actual White House document. What we don't have is the original document.

My point is that deconstructing the layers on the pdf is ludicrous.

What you mean is that you have no idea what we're talking about. Sit this one out, orange. You have nothing to contribute.

Donger
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Sigh...

Synopsis, please?

orange
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Well, I showed that I thought. Please read.

It wasn't directed at you. I said "you all," didn't I? Just how many of your personalities are reading this thread, Sibyl?

orange
04-28-2011, 10:22 AM
You're wrong. We have the actual White House document. What we don't have is the original document.

What you mean is that you have no idea what we're talking about. Sit this one out, orange. You have nothing to contribute.

No, you don't have the paper, period. Just like who claimed there's no raised seal on Obama's pdf three years ago. FactCheck - who actually held the document in their hands - begs to differ.

As for having no idea what I'm talking about, that's universal in this thread. What about these guys - do THEY know what they're talking about:

Having difficulty in scanning poor quality originals then let SmartWorks Pro take the problem away. Historically, the normal method of creating a cleaned image from a document with a poor image is to change the threshold level between light and dark areas and this has required multiple scans to achieve the corrected and balanced image. Using the Scan Once and the 2D Intelligent Adaptive Thresholding (IAT) features in SmartWorks Pro, a more advanced thresholding algorithm is used whilst scanning to separate black from white and is continually altered in response to the background darkness. If you want to alter the threshold level, this can be done without re-scanning by using the Touch Screen to adjust the threshold slider and monitor its effects on the screen instantly. Either way, it allows you to produce crystal clear copies of badly stained documents or even old Blueprints in one scan.

http://www.colortrac.com/press_releases/images/SmartWorksPro_screen_lo.jpg

Consider that large archival job with different sized and poor quality documents. Using the 10 Preset Filters that reflect typical elements of many types of scanned documents, we have allowed the unskilled user to get excellent scanned image quality at the touch of a button. If the documents are also differing sizes this is not a problem, the Auto Size feature automatically sets the parameters of the scan to suit the size of the original document. By using the Auto Detect Document as well, then the scan starts automatically as it detects the leading edge of the document allowing the operator to concentrate on the staging and preparation of subsequent documents for feeding. If you add in the Auto Name filing features; you can automatically index the file names for a given job and also provide an Automatic Time Stamp so it gives you an immediate audit trail on your PC to track everything scanned. These simple but effective workflow improvements not only allow you greater flexibility in defining the final quality of the image, but it saves valuable time in doing it!

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Sigh...

Synopsis, please?

The document released by the White House has digital oddities that can be explained away as innocent or seen as more evidence of a coverup, depending on whether you're a fanboy or a hater.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:25 AM
No, you don't have the paper, period.

That's right. The White House didn't release paper. It released a pdf. I have the document the White House released.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:27 AM
... I have the document the White House released.

Which is NOT the document that matters.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:28 AM
Which is NOT the document that matters.

That's right. So?

Donger
04-28-2011, 10:30 AM
Great. So now we have to have the document that was scanned released?

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:31 AM
Great. So now we have to have the document that was scanned released?

Well, as orange has already said, this one is worthless.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:33 AM
That's right. So?

So... that's what Boyles, sportsshrink, The_Grand_Illusion, youtubeguy, et al, are going on about - the "document" that doesn't matter.

The picture of the actual document. Not the real one.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:35 AM
So... that's what Boyles, sportsshrink, The_Grand_Illusion, youtubeguy, et al, are going on about - the "document" that doesn't matter.

The picture of the actual document. Not the real one.

So the document that Obama released doesn't answer any of the original questions. Sounds like him.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:42 AM
So the document that Obama released doesn't answer any of the original questions. Sounds like him.

As if everyone here couldn't/didn't predict this. There were one or two who said "well, if he releases the long-form, that's all I need." They were met with laughter. You can find it in pretty much all of the twenty threads that were bumped yesterday.

Royal Fanatic
04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Sigh...

Synopsis, please?

Birthers: "Obama was born in Kenya!"

Normal people: "No he wasn't. Go check the official document released by the state of Hawaii."

Birthers: "Not good enough! Obama was born in Kenya!" (Repeat 10,000 times)

Normal people: "(Sigh) All right. Now that the OFFICIAL birth certificate has been released, will you finally shut the f*ck up?"

Birthers: "Ha! We win! We forced Obama to release his birth certificate! Even though it proves that we've been wrong all along, WE WIN! WE WIN!"

Birthers: "And by the way, that's not good enough! Obama was born in Kenya!" (Repeat 10,000 times)

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:44 AM
As if everyone here couldn't/didn't predict this. There were one or two who said "well, if he releases the long-form, that's all I need." They were met with laughter. You can find it in pretty much all of the twenty threads that were bumped yesterday.

I thought you just said that he didn't release the long form. I thought you just said that he released whatever this is instead.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
That's right. The White House didn't release paper. It released a pdf. I have the document the White House released.

Which is NOT the document that matters.

Yep. Sure enough. That's what you said.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:46 AM
Birthers: "Obama was born in Kenya!"

Normal people: "No he wasn't. Go check the official document released by the state of Hawaii."

Birthers: "Not good enough! Obama was born in Kenya!" (Repeat 10,000 times)

Normal people: "(Sigh) All right. Now that the OFFICIAL birth certificate has been released, will you finally shut the f*ck up?"

Birthers: "Ha! We win! We forced Obama to release his birth certificate! Even though it proves that we've been wrong all along, WE WIN! WE WIN!"

Birthers: "And by the way, that's not good enough! Obama was born in Kenya!" (Repeat 10,000 times)

http://www.photoshop101.com/content_images/1/thumbs_up_smiley_icon/smiley_20.jpg

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:47 AM
http://www.photoshop101.com/content_images/1/thumbs_up_smiley_icon/smiley_20.jpg

That face isn't real. Look at the eyes.

orange
04-28-2011, 10:49 AM
Yep. Sure enough. That's what you said.

That's what they put on the web. The actual document will be inspected by a handful of folks, just like his earlier Certification. You will never have it in your hands. You're going to have to trust somebody.

Donger
04-28-2011, 10:49 AM
The actual document will be inspected by a handful of folks

How do you know this?

orange
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
How do you know this?

It's a prediction.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
That's what they put on the web. The actual document will be inspected by a handful of folks, just like his earlier Certification. You will never have it in your hands. You're going to have to trust somebody.

Why? I don't expect ever to have to make up my mind about the certificate. Coming to judgement on the matter won't enhance my life in any way.

Donger
04-28-2011, 10:56 AM
It's a prediction.

Okay.

Mr. Kotter
04-28-2011, 10:56 AM
:spock:


LMAO

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 11:00 AM
That's what they put on the web. The actual document will be inspected by a handful of folks, just like his earlier Certification. You will never have it in your hands. You're going to have to trust somebody.

I kinda hope they're not the same handful of folks that thought that releasing this document was a good idea.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 11:10 AM
It wasn't directed at you. I said "you all," didn't I? Just how many of your personalities are reading this thread, Sibyl?

"all" means each and everyone one of us who you think are on the Birther side or pointed out things on the layered doc. Just to be clear that it wasn't perfectly clear either.

I will repeat though—the newspaper announcements were enough for me.
I just think that in the absence of all the information regarding the layered doc that there's more needed to handle all doubts on that doc.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 11:19 AM
No, you don't have the paper, period. Just like who claimed there's no raised seal on Obama's pdf three years ago. FactCheck - who actually held the document in their hands - begs to differ.

As for having no idea what I'm talking about, that's universal in this thread. What about these guys - do THEY know what they're talking about:

[INDENT]Having difficulty in scanning poor quality originals then let SmartWorks Pro take the problem away. Historically, the normal method of creating a cleaned image from a document with a poor image is to change the threshold level between light and dark areas and this has required multiple scans to achieve the corrected and balanced image. Using the Scan Once and the 2D Intelligent Adaptive Thresholding (IAT) features in SmartWorks Pro, a more advanced thresholding algorithm is used whilst scanning to separate black from white and is continually altered in response to the background darkness. If you want to alter the threshold level, this can be done without re-scanning by using the Touch Screen to adjust the threshold slider and monitor its effects on the screen instantly. Either way, it allows you to produce crystal clear copies of badly stained documents or even old Blueprints in one scan.

You can do that in Photoshop since a scanner saves in PS usually. At least mine does.

Then there's the entire choice of adjustment features: use levels, curves, threshold etc. Then use the History Brush to paint out the adjustment in areas that should not have been affected by any tonal corrections. Or one can use via a temporary layer called an Adjustment Layer which has a mask that one can paint out the correction in areas you don't want affected and in varying amounts. Also, I just thought of this, that chromatic haloing around the edges can also be caused by sharpening the image too.

petegz28
04-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Havent read the thread but why did it take this long to release it in the first place? After all, there are and have been more important issues to deal with.

Frankie
04-28-2011, 12:07 PM
Havent read the thread but why did it take this long to release it in the first place? Precedent. Why should this present of all presidents be required to show his birth certificate?

After all, there are and have been more important issues to deal with.So the Tea Party and republican birthers should have dropped it.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 12:09 PM
Not all Tea Partiers are birthers.

petegz28
04-28-2011, 12:26 PM
Precedent. Why should this present of all presidents be required to show his birth certificate?

So the Tea Party and republican birthers should have dropped it.

He could have shut them all up and just done it from the start, is my point. I am not the one sayin there is more important things to do, he is. The fact that he waited this long to do it in and of itself raises a certain amount of trivial suspicion on my part.

And yes, all Presidents should have to present a birth certificate.

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 12:28 PM
Precedent. Why should this present of all presidents be required to show his birth certificate?

I can understand that. That was Nixon's position on the tapes.

teedubya
04-28-2011, 12:37 PM
Heh... if comparing realness of birth certs...

this one looks more real than any others.

http://thepowerhour.com/news4/obama_kenyan_birth_certificate.htm

http://thepowerhour.com/images/birth1.jpg

But this is all hilarious. He did more harm by releasing it than not releasing it. I could care less if he was born here or not, they put whoever they want in that office, so it doesn't really matter in my estimation. Paid puppet presidents... always.

I like that instead of talking about the FED and the historic live press conference for the first time by a Fed Chairman in 90 years.... instead of the dollar tanking we are talking about Obama's BC. Classic distraction, IMO.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 12:40 PM
I like that instead of talking about the FED and the historic live press conference for the first time by a Fed Chairman in 90 years.... instead of the dollar tanking we are talking about Obama's BC. Classic distraction, IMO.

That is a VERY good point! Notice how it came out when Bernanke had his press conference. ROFL

mlyonsd
04-28-2011, 12:41 PM
I wish the thread history went back to the 2004 campaign. We'd all have a good laugh over some pretty hypocritical Bush Air Guard posts.

orange
04-28-2011, 12:47 PM
I like that instead of talking about the FED and the historic live press conference for the first time by a Fed Chairman in 90 years.... instead of the dollar tanking we are talking about Obama's BC. Classic distraction, IMO.

I guess the incredible importance of that press conference is why you posted it and it's drawn 1000's of views already. Right?

teedubya
04-28-2011, 12:51 PM
I guess the incredible importance of that press conference is why you posted it and it's drawn 1000's of views already. Right?

The world is not ONLY CP... what has the bigger buzz worldwide? Obama BC? Or Bernanke's PC?

mlyonsd
04-28-2011, 12:54 PM
The world is not ONLY CP... what has the bigger buzz worldwide? Obama BC? Or Bernanke's PC?

All the accounts I saw on the PC were he didn't say anything special or off message. But it was covered.

FD
04-28-2011, 12:58 PM
The world is not ONLY CP... what has the bigger buzz worldwide? Obama BC? Or Bernanke's PC?

There was nothing newsworthy that came out of Bernanke's press conference though, with the exception of the fact that he had one.

Frankie
04-28-2011, 12:59 PM
He could have shut them all up and just done it from the start, is my point.

I wouldn't have, just as a matter of principle. (I don't have an American birth certificate anyway.)

Frankie
04-28-2011, 01:01 PM
I can understand that. That was Nixon's position on the tapes.

Those tapes were subpoenaed. Obama's birth certificate was not.

mlyonsd
04-28-2011, 01:02 PM
I wouldn't have, just as a matter of principle. (I don't have an American birth certificate anyway.)

You would if you were losing the argument in the polling.

Face it, Obama got Trumped.

Royal Fanatic
04-28-2011, 01:39 PM
You would if you were losing the argument in the polling.

Face it, Obama got Trumped.
If the definition of "Trumped" is "he proved the birthers wrong, yet the birthers still claim victory", then yes, he did get Trumped.

Trump is an idiot. Birthers are idiots. If you're a birther, then, well ....

ClevelandBronco
04-28-2011, 01:41 PM
Those tapes were subpoenaed. Obama's birth certificate was not.

Yes, that's the correct talking point.

Frankie
04-28-2011, 01:41 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110427/ts_yblog_theticket/birth-certificate-wont-end-race-related-attacks-on-the-president

Birtherist response highlights racial undertones of ‘debate’

By Rachel Rose Hartman
Wed Apr 27, 5:34 pm ET

During the 2008 campaign, questions about John McCain's birth in the Panama Canal Zone on a U.S. military base prompted some to ask whether McCain was eligible to be president, since the Constitution stipulates that anyone not born in the United States is not eligible to be president.

Amid a flurry of news reports, McCain's own campaign announced in February 2008 that it was conducting an investigation. When a bipartisan pair of lawyers announced the following month that McCain was indeed eligible, the issue virtually died--apart from a Senate resolution that pretty much laid the question to rest by attesting to the facts surrounding McCain's birth and citizenship.

But the winner of the 2008 election, Barack Obama, has faced a relentless campaign questioning his U.S. citizenship--and thereby the legitimacy of his presidency--that has disregarded the facts.

Questions regarding Obama's birth certificate have persisted for more than two years, as the president noted Wednesday at a press conference announcing the release of his long-form birth certificate. A vast array of evidence attests to Obama's citizenship--including a certificate of live birth, signed affidavits from people who viewed Obama's long-form birth certificate, confirmation by Hawaiian officials, and independent investigations by news outlets. Nevertheless, "this thing just keeps going" as Obama said this morning. Even after the White House released the long-form certificate of Obama's birth, birther leader Orly Taitz—who has filed unsuccessful lawsuits seeking to obtain access to Obama's birth certificate—sought to cast doubt on the document's authenticity, suggesting that in 1961, Hawaiian officials would have classified Obama as "Negro" rather than using designation "African," which suggests, in her view, a more contemporary concern for "political correctness."

So what's fueling the dogged questioning of Obama's origins? Many critics of the birther movement say its core tenets--and its stubborn resistance to evidence disproving those beliefs--can be traced to racial hostilities. The fundamental birtherist conviction, these critics say, is that an African-American can't have legitimately won the presidency--and that his elevation to power therefore has to be the result of an elaborate subterfuge.

"There is a real deep-seated and vicious racism at work here in terms of trying to de-legitimate the president," Peniel Joseph, a professor of history at Tufts University, told The Ticket.

"This is more than just a conspiracy," Joseph added. "I think this is fundamentally connected to a conception of white supremacist democracy in this country."

Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts Jr. in early April called for the connection to be publicly drawn between birthers and racism: "So it is time to call this birther nonsense what it is--not just claptrap, but profoundly racist claptrap."

And columnist Michael Tomasky wrote for The Guardian Wednesday that the birther conspiracy "had to be the only explanation for how this black man got to the White House." He added: "And if you think race isn't what this is about at its core, ask yourself if there would even be a birther conspiracy if Barack Obama were white and named Bart Oberstar. If you think there would be, you are delusional."

In a similar vein, Rev. Jesse Jackson told Politico yesterday that Donald Trump's campaign to get Obama to release his birth certificate is deeply rooted in race.

"Any discussion of [Obama's] birthplace is a code word," Jackson said. "It calls upon ancient racial fears." Jackson later added that, in his view, Trump "is now tapping into code-word fears that go far beyond a rational discourse."

Birthers emphatically deny such criticism. But it's difficult to apprehend the ongoing resistance to proof of Obama's citizenship without crediting racial fear as a significant factor. At first, after all, many adherents of birtherism argued that the administration fueled speculation by failing to release the long-form version of Obama's birth certificate, but now that this version has been released to the public, the call continues to go out for other kinds of information about Obama's past to be released--a level of scrutiny that neither McCain nor Obama's 43 predecessors in the Oval Office were expected to face.

Trump, who has railed against Obama as he floats himself as a presidential contender, on Wednesday at a press conference in New Hampshire called for Obama to release his academic transcripts:

The word is, according to what I've read, that he was a terrible student when he went to Occidental. He then gets to Columbia. He then gets to Harvard. I heard at Columbia he wasn't a very good student. He then gets to Harvard. How do you get into Harvard if you're not a good student. Maybe that's right or maybe that's wrong. But I don't know why he doesn't release his records. Why doesn't he release his Occidental records?

Trump and others have accused Obama of not authoring his memoir, while many Obama detractors continue to argue he is secretly Muslim. Both Jackson and Joseph noted that never before has a sitting president's nationality been questioned.

Meanwhile, an eye-opening recent study from the University of Delaware appears to confirm that race-minded detractors of Obama view him as "less American"--as Dan Vergano writes for USA Today.

The study, which surveyed blacks and whites on their opinions of Obama compared to Vice President Joe Biden, found that whites classified as "higher prejudice-predicted Whites" viewed Obama as "less American"--a view that, in turn, resulted in lower evaluations of the president's performance.

"Finally, many in the media have speculated that current criticisms of Obama are a result of his race, rather than his agenda. We believe that the current results are an empirical demonstration that this is sadly the case," the study concluded in its analysis. "As the United States approaches important decisions regarding issues such as economic reform, health care, and overseas military interventions, the intrusion of racial attitudes in the evaluation of political leaders' performance is ironically inconsistent with what many believe to be 'American.' "

Two separate national polls conducted this spring found that about half of Republicans don't believe Obama was born in the United States.

But Democrats and Republicans alike say that "birther" talk will be a political liability for whoever propagates the discussion.
"I don't think it's an issue that moves voters," Republican National Committee chairman Reince Priebus told reporters Tuesday. "It's an issue in my opinion that I don't personally get too excited about, because I think the more important question is what's going on in this country in regards to jobs, to debt, and the deficit and spending. Those are the things that people are worried about. People aren't worried about these other issues."

Pitt Gorilla
04-28-2011, 01:41 PM
The fact that he waited this long to do it in and of itself raises a certain amount of trivial suspicion on my part. Of course it does. LMAO

Frankie
04-28-2011, 01:44 PM
Yes, that's the correct talking point.

No. Just the fact.

mlyonsd
04-28-2011, 01:45 PM
If the definition of "Trumped" is "he proved the birthers wrong, yet the birthers still claim victory", then yes, he did get Trumped.

Trump is an idiot. Birthers are idiots. If you're a birther, then, well ....

My point was Trump forced Obama to concede the issue. And the only reason Obama conceded was the polls showing more and more people believing what Trump was saying.

As for Trump, he's just pure entertainment.

blaise
04-28-2011, 01:47 PM
I wish the thread history went back to the 2004 campaign. We'd all have a good laugh over some pretty hypocritical Bush Air Guard posts.

Don't worry. There's stories coming out about liberal groups looking to disrupt Republican town hall meetings. We can probably have a laugh soon over all the "This is the biggest danger to democracy and will lead to violence" posts made last year during the health care town halls.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 01:58 PM
I wouldn't have, just as a matter of principle. (I don't have an American birth certificate anyway.)

I lost mine and had to settle for a sealed copy.

teedubya
04-28-2011, 02:23 PM
There was nothing newsworthy that came out of Bernanke's press conference though, with the exception of the fact that he had one.

He said enough... the dollar dropped during his PC and Gold and Silver rose by 5% each... lol.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 02:34 PM
He said enough... the dollar dropped during his PC and Gold and Silver rose by 5% each... lol.

Doesn't matter what he said. It matters the he had one because he's scared.

SuperChief
04-28-2011, 02:53 PM
Pretty much. I've said all along that the fact that his father was a foreign national made the possibility of Obama not being born on US soil more likely compared to a candidate who was born of two US parents. A candidate born of two US parents even outside the US is pretty much a natural born citizen. There are caveats when one of the parents not a US citizen, as was the case with Obama.

United States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Donger
04-28-2011, 02:54 PM
United States: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

What's your point?

patteeu
04-28-2011, 03:24 PM
Ha Ha.

where are the people that were telling me that this would put the issue to rest and there wouldn't be people claiming it is a forgery. LMAO

Where's Sportshrink's big forgery thread. Countdown 5 hours...

It doesn't really matter whether people call it a forgery, there's no justification for declining to release this earlier.

Pitt Gorilla
04-28-2011, 06:14 PM
It doesn't really matter whether people call it a forgery, there's no justification for declining to release this earlier.There are myriad reasons for not releasing it earlier.

patteeu
04-28-2011, 06:29 PM
There are myriad reasons for not releasing it earlier.

No good ones for a guy who campaigned on bringing unprecedented transparency to the office.

FD
04-28-2011, 06:48 PM
No good ones for a guy who campaigned on bringing unprecedented transparency to the office.

Exactly, now why wont he release the documents that prove hes not a cloud of tiny flies taken human form. He could end all the controversy in 5 minutes. Whats his reason for not releasing them???

patteeu
04-28-2011, 07:33 PM
Exactly, now why wont he release the documents that prove hes not a cloud of tiny flies taken human form. He could end all the controversy in 5 minutes. Whats his reason for not releasing them???

There is no such controversy. You must subscribe to websites even more bizarre than durtyrute.

VAChief
04-28-2011, 07:59 PM
There is no such controversy. You must subscribe to websites even more bizarre than durtyrute.

There wasn't a controversy with anyone with logical and reasoned cognitive abilities.

CoMoChief
04-28-2011, 08:41 PM
Come on dude. If you were not "into the whole 'birther' thing" you would not even spend a minute doing what you did.

Why does that even matter?

headsnap
04-28-2011, 08:51 PM
Why does that even matter?

it's his way to try to discredit me...

I'm a Graphic Designer, I work in Illustrator and with pdfs all the time... I heard about this so I decided to try it out. The info on the document might be correct but the document IMNSHO is not authentic, it raises more questions than it answers.

Chiefshrink
04-28-2011, 10:38 PM
It doesn't really matter whether people call it a forgery, there's no justification for declining to release this earlier.

Especially when "O" let a good honorable decent man serving our country go to prison when all he had to do was release it. But no, Obama had to bitch slap this guy who is a supposed white racist(who is married interacially) because Obama's insecure ego and skin is so thin it is transparent to the point you see his rageful bitter heart.

Obama say's to himself, "WTF! How dare you question me you "white trash racist tea baggin POS"!! I shut your "cracker ass" up in the can!!!

Anybody doubt this was what he was thinking:shrug:

Guru
04-28-2011, 11:20 PM
Why didn't he just do this when the issue first came up. JFC

Frankie
04-28-2011, 11:55 PM
Especially when "O" let a good honorable decent man serving our country go to prison when all he had to do was release it. But no, Obama had to bitch slap this guy who is a supposed white racist(who is married interacially) because Obama's insecure ego and skin is so thin it is transparent to the point you see his rageful bitter heart.

Obama say's to himself, "WTF! How dare you question me you "white trash racist tea baggin POS"!! I shut your "cracker ass" up in the can!!!

Anybody doubt this was what he was thinking:shrug:

Forgive me if the lateness of the evening has clouded my memory, but who is this "honorable decent man?"

orange
04-29-2011, 03:06 AM
it's his way to try to discredit me...

I'm a Graphic Designer, I work in Illustrator and with pdfs all the time... I heard about this so I decided to try it out. The info on the document might be correct but the document IMNSHO is not authentic, it raises more questions than it answers.

Ever use this?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mGUxs63hsa0/TbjnLZloinI/AAAAAAAAADA/OcPJH6TMeE4/s1600/acrobat1.jpg

You get layers, right?

BucEyedPea
04-29-2011, 06:53 AM
it's his way to try to discredit me...

I'm a Graphic Designer, I work in Illustrator and with pdfs all the time... I heard about this so I decided to try it out. The info on the document might be correct but the document IMNSHO is not authentic, it raises more questions than it answers.

I'm a graphic designer too. I think you can say it wasn't scanned. I'm with you there. I am not convinced it's necessarily a forgery either. It could have been done to make it look better.

Another thing is an Illustrator layer has differences from a PS layer. You work on the artboard as the original background layer and that always subdivides into many layers (really are sublayers) for each object BUT it's still on one layer. Although if it were a scanned image of the document this would not be the case. There'd be no layers including sublayers at all. It would just be an image file. I would think that would open up in PS.

BucEyedPea
04-29-2011, 06:54 AM
There are myriad reasons for not releasing it earlier.

Such as?

BucEyedPea
04-29-2011, 07:04 AM
Ever use this?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mGUxs63hsa0/TbjnLZloinI/AAAAAAAAADA/OcPJH6TMeE4/s1600/acrobat1.jpg

You get layers, right?

That wouldn't account for the other patterned paper around the cert though.

If scanning the image first, I am kinda doubtful that this can be converted into text boxes in Illustrator. It's when you save something in Illustrator as a pdf, which appears flattened, that you can open it through "Open" where you get those boxes and the sublayers. Optimizing usually refers to computing speed and efficiency as opposed to finding elements of the original program a document was created in. The settings in your image are merely image enhancements to make it look nicer as opposed to finding text, image boxes and sub-layers in the image.

patteeu
04-29-2011, 07:37 AM
There wasn't a controversy with anyone with logical and reasoned cognitive abilities.

Except those who have a reasonable curiosity about the shady origin story of the man who ran and succeeded in being elected as our 44th POTUS. I'll concede that those of you who were more than willing to ignore your lack of knowledge of the guy's past weren't too bothered.

FD
04-29-2011, 09:36 AM
There is no such controversy. You must subscribe to websites even more bizarre than durtyrute.

There is just as much legitimacy to the claim that Obama is a fly person as that he was not born in the U.S. He had already released the official state document showing he was, there were newspaper announcements at the time, multiple witnesses who knew his mother at the time, and most important, absolutely zero evidence suggesting he wasn't born there.

So I ask again, why not just release the fly person documents? I thought he campaigned on transparency. What possible reason does he have for hiding this information from the people?

RedNeckRaider
04-29-2011, 09:52 AM
Why didn't he just do this when the issue first came up. JFC

Why? This is working out perfectly for him. Nobody is talking about his embarrassing performance. It is making the right appear as conspiracy nuts or just plain afraid to take him on. Gee maybe we can get him disqualified! :rolleyes: This distraction is something he should have saved until the election. He plays the insulted victim of a witch hunt and the right appears as an angry mob with pitch forks and torches. I would think the right would be licking their chops at a shot at this clown. He has nothing performance wise to stand on. After this four year debacle you would think he would be as vulnerable as the right was after W left. A weak ticket along with a poor performance allowed this American Idol candidate to be elected to begin with. If the right does not get its act together he is going to get re-elected~

KC native
04-29-2011, 10:22 AM
ROFL @ this thread still going on.

Oh, if you want a relevant laugh look up Louis CK asks donald rumsfeld if he is a flesh eating lizard. Fucking hilarious (should be on youtbe, iirc he was on th opie and anthony show when it happened).

vailpass
04-29-2011, 10:29 AM
Why? This is working out perfectly for him. Nobody is talking about his embarrassing performance. It is making the right appear as conspiracy nuts or just plain afraid to take him on. Gee maybe we can get him disqualified! :rolleyes: This distraction is something he should have saved until the election. He plays the insulted victim of a witch hunt and the right appears as an angry mob with pitch forks and torches. I would think the right would be licking their chops at a shot at this clown. He has nothing performance wise to stand on. After this four year debacle you would think he would be as vulnerable as the right was after W left. A weak ticket along with a poor performance allowed this American Idol candidate to be elected to begin with. If the right does not get its act together he is going to get re-elected~

Yep.

patteeu
04-29-2011, 10:51 AM
There is just as much legitimacy to the claim that Obama is a fly person as that he was not born in the U.S. He had already released the official state document showing he was, there were newspaper announcements at the time, multiple witnesses who knew his mother at the time, and most important, absolutely zero evidence suggesting he wasn't born there.

So I ask again, why not just release the fly person documents? I thought he campaigned on transparency. What possible reason does he have for hiding this information from the people?

No, I'm sorry but there's not (just as much legitimacy). It's idiotic to even present that theory. Your life experience should tell you that fly people don't exist and it should also tell you that government documents and newspaper articles can be wrong. That being said, I never said anything about this being necessary to settle the question of his birthplace.

orange
04-29-2011, 02:29 PM
No, I'm sorry but there's not (just as much legitimacy). It's idiotic to even present that theory. Your life experience should tell you that fly people don't exist and it should also tell you that government documents and newspaper articles can be wrong. That being said, I never said anything about this being necessary to settle the question of his birthplace.

Okay, let's put away the "fly person" analogy and go with something that's really out there. Something plausible within the realm of science and reality.

Why doesn't President Obama simply get a DNA test to prove who his father is? There's big questions about that out there; you know, Trump has people all over this in Hawaii - and Denver - and you won't believe what they're finding out!!!

VAChief
04-29-2011, 02:42 PM
Except those who have a reasonable curiosity about the shady origin story of the man who ran and succeeded in being elected as our 44th POTUS. I'll concede that those of you who were more than willing to ignore your lack of knowledge of the guy's past weren't too bothered.

Wishful and magical thinking does not rise to reasonable curiosity in my mind, but to each his own.

VAChief
04-29-2011, 02:48 PM
Especially when "O" let a good honorable decent man serving our country go to prison when all he had to do was release it. But no, Obama had to bitch slap this guy who is a supposed white racist(who is married interacially) because Obama's insecure ego and skin is so thin it is transparent to the point you see his rageful bitter heart.

Obama say's to himself, "WTF! How dare you question me you "white trash racist tea baggin POS"!! I shut your "cracker ass" up in the can!!!

Anybody doubt this was what he was thinking:shrug:

He ceased to serve his country when he went off the deep end and decided for himself what his orders were. You are now entering seriously similar territory and I am not being sarcastic when I say, please step back a little and reflect on the level of hyperbole you are spewing on an ever increasing basis.

orange
04-29-2011, 02:51 PM
He ceased to serve his country when he went off the deep end and decided for himself what his orders were.

He also - honestly and decently at last - swore under oath that he was totally wrong and absolutely unjustified in doing so.

Birthers don't like to talk about that, though.

vailpass
04-29-2011, 03:07 PM
He also - honestly and decently at last - swore under oath that he was totally wrong and absolutely unjustified in doing so.

Birthers don't like to talk about that, though.

Please.

orange
04-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Please.

Thank you?

patteeu
04-29-2011, 05:28 PM
Okay, let's put away the "fly person" analogy and go with something that's really out there. Something plausible within the realm of science and reality.

Why doesn't President Obama simply get a DNA test to prove who his father is? There's big questions about that out there; you know, Trump has people all over this in Hawaii - and Denver - and you won't believe what they're finding out!!!

That's certainly a more reasonable comparison.

I think it was reasonable to ask him to take the simple step required to release his full birth certificate because the controversy arose from a constitutional requirement for his office. Even though the abbreviated document he did release would normally be legally sufficient for run-of-the-mill purposes, the purpose for which he was providing it was anything but run-of-the-mill. And even though the corroborating circumstantial evidence made it overwhelmingly likely that he'd been born in Hawaii, it seems like the trivial effort required to go the whole nine yards is the least he can do to put the matter to rest.

The paternity test issue, by contrast, has nothing to do with his qualifications and any time a DNA test is performed there are other privacy issues at stake so the cost isn't completely trivial. As a result, I don't see a good reason for him to go out of his way to prove his paternity. But if he wants to prove his commitment to transparency, it would be a great next step.

Pitt Gorilla
04-30-2011, 09:47 AM
That's certainly a more reasonable comparison.

I think it was reasonable to ask him to take the simple step required to release his full birth certificate because the controversy arose from a constitutional requirement for his office. Even though the abbreviated document he did release would normally be legally sufficient for run-of-the-mill purposes, the purpose for which he was providing it was anything but run-of-the-mill. And even though the corroborating circumstantial evidence made it overwhelmingly likely that he'd been born in Hawaii, it seems like the trivial effort required to go the whole nine yards is the least he can do to put the matter to rest.

The paternity test issue, by contrast, has nothing to do with his qualifications and any time a DNA test is performed there are other privacy issues at stake so the cost isn't completely trivial. As a result, I don't see a good reason for him to go out of his way to prove his paternity. But if he wants to prove his commitment to transparency, it would be a great next step.pat: Jump, Obama.

Obama: No thank you.

pat: I said jump.

stevieray
04-30-2011, 10:46 AM
pat: Jump, Obama.

Obama: No thank you.

pat: I said jump.


pitt gorilla:....:crybaby:

banyon
04-30-2011, 02:46 PM
It doesn't really matter whether people call it a forgery, there's no justification for declining to release this earlier.

Sure there was a justification.

The view was that responding to this nutty conspiracy theory only lent it credence.

Should Bush and Cheney publicly go on TV and clear up that they were not behind 9-11? If not, why not?

BucEyedPea
04-30-2011, 03:03 PM
The view was that responding to this nutty conspiracy theory only lent it credence.



Nope. When there is a lack of information people will make things up. You have to answer people's questions whether you like those questions or not.

banyon
04-30-2011, 03:05 PM
Nope. When there is a lack of information people will make things up. You have to answer people's questions whether you like those questions or not.

Put me back on your fake ignore please.

Pitt Gorilla
04-30-2011, 07:18 PM
pitt gorilla:....:crybaby:U mad? http://joe-miller.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/trollface-1f965e4-300x244.png

Fortunately, not all of us are as emotionally-invested as white knight stevie. ;)

patteeu
04-30-2011, 07:20 PM
Sure there was a justification.

The view was that responding to this nutty conspiracy theory only lent it credence.

Should Bush and Cheney publicly go on TV and clear up that they were not behind 9-11? If not, why not?

If there was a common official document analogous to a birth certificate that Bush and Cheney could release to show their innocence, then I'd definitely advocate taking the trivial step of releasing that document to take away that particular opportunity from conspiracy theorists.

T-post Tom
04-30-2011, 08:25 PM
It never "should" have been released; it never mattered.

I think the partisan hacks at the state level were at critical mass with the threats of bogus state election laws. Obama's release of the full certificate may have prevented the courts from enduring a deluge of lawsuits resulting from the partisan shenanigans. Probably saved the taxpayers millions in court costs. How about some love for our tax-saving and black President, tea partiers? Ironic, eh?

go bowe
04-30-2011, 08:29 PM
If there was a common official document analogous to a birth certificate that Bush and Cheney could release to show their innocence, then I'd definitely advocate taking the trivial step of releasing that document to take away that particular opportunity from conspiracy theorists.
really?

you think this long form birth certificate will take away a particular opportunity (in this case, questioning his place of birth) from conspiracy theorists?

it won't...

first, it's a forgery...

then it's not enough, they want the fucking toilet paper he used yesterday...

it's never enough (see sportsshrink)...

if it had been me, i wouldn't have released it and i sure wouldn't release all my private records and information...

it's bad enough trying to find people willing to go through the meat grinder to serve in politics, take away all semblance of privacy from the moment they were born and only the truly power mad will seek office...

(i know i know, obama is truly power mad and a sleazeball to boot, as are most politicians, but it could be worse)...

headsnap
04-30-2011, 08:30 PM
I think the partisan hacks at the state level were at critical mass with the threats of bogus state election laws. Obama's release of the full certificate may have prevented the courts from enduring a deluge of lawsuits resulting from the partisan shenanigans. Probably saved the taxpayers millions in court costs. How about some love for our tax-saving and black President, tea partiers? Ironic, eh?

WOW!!! you can touch your toes by bending backwards... that's impressive!!!

T-post Tom
04-30-2011, 08:33 PM
WOW!!! you can touch your toes by bending backwards... that's impressive!!!

clever and relevent: good job

patteeu
04-30-2011, 08:45 PM
really?

you think this long form birth certificate will take away a particular opportunity (in this case, questioning his place of birth) from conspiracy theorists?

it won't...

first, it's a forgery...

then it's not enough, they want the ****ing toilet paper he used yesterday...

it's never enough (see sportsshrink)...

if it had been me, i wouldn't have released it and i sure wouldn't release all my private records and information...

it's bad enough trying to find people willing to go through the meat grinder to serve in politics, take away all semblance of privacy from the moment they were born and only the truly power mad will seek office...

(i know i know, obama is truly power mad and a sleazeball to boot, as are most politicians, but it could be worse)...

Yes, I think it does. Sure there are some lingering questions about the document's authenticity, but I think that's going to be minimal. And the fact that the long form has now been released has taken away the opportunity for conspiracy theorists to claim that the long form either doesn't exist or that it contains information in contradiction to the COLB that was previously released. You can't ever completely quiet the conspiratorial critics, but if you can satisfy 80% of the critics, the fact that another 20% remain isn't a justification for inaction when such trivial effort is required.

go bowe
04-30-2011, 08:49 PM
Yes, I think it does. Sure there are some lingering questions about the document's authenticity, but I think that's going to be minimal. And the fact that the long form has now been released has taken away the opportunity for conspiracy theorists to claim that the long form either doesn't exist or that it contains information in contradiction to the COLB that was previously released. You can't ever completely quiet the conspiratorial critics, but if you can satisfy 80% of the critics, the fact that another 20% remain isn't a justification for inaction when such trivial effort is required.
i see your point and don't disagree other than to say that it could be more like the release of the bc might satisfy 20% of the critics and but not the remaining 80%...

BucEyedPea
05-01-2011, 11:24 AM
So lemme see if I get this right:

If privacy is reduced for major public office seekers there will only be the "truly power mad" that will seek office. I don't get it. I would think the truly power mad would thrive on the public not knowing such things as:
• where you were born in order to qualify particularly in a country where there are increasingly more foreign born ( Did Obama raise the issue of McCain's eligibility in the last election saying he wasn born in a city outside the Panama Canal so he wasn't really born here?)
• wanting some idea of your education, intelligence and aptitude, ( especially when we hear how smart a candidate is )
• knowing whether or not a candidate really served in the armed forces.

None of these things sound like a huge invasion of privacy to me for what has become known as the most powerful position in the world these days. ( unfortunately) In fact I'd add wanting to know about any mental health treatment and full disclosure financial connections and where they worked, govt aid received.

Sunshine disinfects which is why the power mad hate it.

go bowe
05-01-2011, 12:52 PM
So lemme see if I get this right:

If privacy is reduced for major public office seekers there will only be the "truly power mad" that will seek office. I don't get it. I would think the truly power mad would thrive on the public not knowing such things as:
• where you were born in order to qualify particularly in a country where there are increasingly more foreign born ( Did Obama raise the issue of McCain's eligibility in the last election saying he wasn born in a city outside the Panama Canal so he wasn't really born here?)
• wanting some idea of your education, intelligence and aptitude, ( especially when we hear how smart a candidate is )
• knowing whether or not a candidate really served in the armed forces.

None of these things sound like a huge invasion of privacy to me for what has become known as the most powerful position in the world these days. ( unfortunately) In fact I'd add wanting to know about any mental health treatment and full disclosure financial connections and where they worked, govt aid received.

Sunshine disinfects which is why the power mad hate it.
i thought i was on fake ignore...

banyon
05-01-2011, 01:31 PM
i thought i was on fake ignore...

No, that is fake ignore.

If she directly quotes your post, then you're off the fake ignore enemies list.

If you are on fake ignore, she still reads and replies to all of your posts, she just won't acknowledge that you posted it. She won't use your name.


It's all very complicated...in her head.

patteeu
05-01-2011, 03:12 PM
i see your point and don't disagree other than to say that it could be more like the release of the bc might satisfy 20% of the critics and but not the remaining 80%...

I won't argue about the percentages with you, but I think there were a lot of people like me who believed he was born in Hawaii but who couldn't understand why he wouldn't disclose the best form of easily obtainable proof. My curiosity has been satisfied and my suspicions have been laid to rest now that he has. That could have happened a long time ago and since I don't see what Obama loses* by releasing the BC, it seems like the benefit, however small, is worth the almost nonexistent cost.

Baby Lee
05-01-2011, 03:22 PM
• where you were born in order to qualify particularly in a country where there are increasingly more foreign born ( Did Obama raise the issue of McCain's eligibility in the last election saying he wasn born in a city outside the Panama Canal so he wasn't really born here?)

It is interesting viewing politics with a sound memory.

Saw a recent post [not here, probably at Huffpo or somesort] railing about how there were serious problems with McCain's birth that were completely unexamined, serving as proof that this was a racial thing.

I seem to recall a fairly robust discussion of McCain's birth, that petered out as 1) the issue was fairly cut and dried, and more importantly, 2) it was clear the guy was going to lose.

Similarly, I saw a webchat seeking to elide the racism case to a more amorphous 'classism' charge, noting that 'the right' sought to paint Clinton as a hayseed, trailer-park type. It immediately struck me that it was the Clinton team that brought up 'waving a five dollar bill in a trailer park' to attack political enemies.

It's amazing what issues are 'railed on incessantly' or 'barely discussed' based on your political POV.

banyon
05-01-2011, 03:34 PM
Birther’ attorney Taitz still has questions about Obama’s birth certificate


By ALAN RIQUELMY - ariquelmy@ledger-enquirer.com


The release of President Barack Obama’s long form birth certificate isn’t enough for Orly Taitz.

Taitz, the California attorney and “birther” known for filing lawsuits on behalf of those who question Obama’s citizenship, still has questions after seeing the document the White House issued Wednesday.

Taitz represented an Army major and captain before a Columbus federal judge, both of whom questioned the legality of their orders coming from a man they argued might not legally be able to hold office. Both suits failed, and Judge Clay Land sanctioned Taitz $20,000.

http://media.ledger-enquirer.com/smedia/2011/04/27/22/20110427-222727-pic-308178784.embedded.prod_affiliate.70.jpg
Taitz

“First of all, I do feel that this is a step in the right direction,” Taitz said Wednesday. “I welcome this. I do question the timing.”

Obama has come under new pressure in recent weeks with reality TV star, real estate mogul and possible presidential candidate Donald Trump reigniting demands to see the long form certificate. Through a spokesman, Obama said the debate over his place of birth had become a “sideshow.”

The certificate of live birth states that Obama was born Aug. 4, 1961, at the Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Taitz said that based on her examination of the birth certificate, Obama holds dual citizenship in countries including America, Great Britain, Indonesia and Kenya. She said she doesn’t know whether someone with dual citizenship can legally be president.

“If a federal judge provides a determination that a person with dual citizenship is a natural born citizen, then this issue is solved,” she said. “But this issue has to be solved.”

Taitz pointed to John Bingham, a U.S. representative in the 1800s who played a large role in the creation of the 14th Amendment which defines citizenship. According to Taitz, Bingham said that citizenship is granted to someone born in America to parents who owe no allegiance to another country.

Obama’s father was born in Kenya.

Taitz continues to question what she calls his use of a Social Security number that never was assigned to him, and she claims the president “is committing felonies.”

But is the birth certificate real?

“It’s a better document that we had before, but there are still some questions,” she said. “It’s a little bit strange.”

Read more: http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2011/04/28/1555848/birther-attorney-taitz-still-has.html#ixzz1L8g44aXS

banyon
05-01-2011, 03:36 PM
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=292165

Real Estate entrepreneur Donald Trump, a possible GOP Republican candidate in 2012, has been asking questions about Obama's documentation for several weeks now.

"First we have to look at the certificate," he said. "I want to look at it, but I hope it's true, so we can get to more important national issues."

"Why he didn't do it when the Clintons asked for it. Why he didn't do it when everyone else was asking about it, I don't know," he said.


President Barack Obama in the Oval Office April 4, 2011

"You're going to have many people looking at it …. It's amazing that all of a sudden it materializes. Experts will look at it … and I'm very proud that I was able to bring this to a point."

tmh
05-01-2011, 04:05 PM
People who bring up this birther talk are doing everyone else a terrible injustice. Its really too bad we have become a nation of 45 second news clips. Thats how Barry got elected, not some plot to hide his identity.

The question that should be asked is, how did we, as suposed eductated and enlighted as we are, fall for his BS. I admit I found it great that we elected our first African-American president. I didnt do my homework on the guy.

What I think is more intresting than where he was born is how did a guy who thinks the folowing ever get elected?

" The US constitution is Flawed, because it dosent deal with social justice"
"America was not great until 1965"

and any of his myriad of other sly America bashing comments. That to me is what is outstanding.

banyon
05-01-2011, 04:10 PM
People who bring up this birther talk are doing everyone else a terrible injustice. Its really too bad we have become a nation of 45 second news clips. Thats how Barry got elected, not some plot to hide his identity.

The question that should be asked is, how did we, as suposed eductated and enlighted as we are, fall for his BS. I admit I found it great that we elected our first African-American president. I didnt do my homework on the guy.

What I think is more intresting than where he was born is how did a guy who thinks the folowing ever get elected?

" The US constitution is Flawed, because it dosent deal with social justice"
"America was not great until 1965"

and any of his myriad of other sly America bashing comments. That to me is what is outstanding.

Where do those quotes come from? Are you sure that quotation marks belong around them? I have a hard time believing the second one, in particular.

The first comment I'd like to see the context. I could say the Constitution is a flawed document, because it gave legal credence to the institution of slavery, but just because I don't think it's perfect doesn't mean I don't think it's one of the most profound pieces of historical wisdom ever made into a governing structure.

orange
05-01-2011, 04:13 PM
It is interesting viewing politics with a sound memory.

Yes it is.

Saw a recent post [not here, probably at Huffpo or somesort] railing about how there were serious problems with McCain's birth that were completely unexamined, serving as proof that this was a racial thing.

I seem to recall a fairly robust discussion of McCain's birth, that petered out as 1) the issue was fairly cut and dried, and more importantly, 2) it was clear the guy was going to lose.

Here's a little refresher:

The question of whether Sen. John McCain is eligible for the presidency has popped up from time to time in the media and on the Internet. The controversy, such as it is, hinges on the circumstances of McCain's birth. The Constitution lays out three eligibility requirements for presidential candidates. A candidate must be at least 35 years old, a resident of the United States for at least 14 years, and must be a "natural-born citizen." McCain qualifies on all three; but some commentators have questioned whether he can be considered to have been natural-born because he was born on a U.S. Navy base in the Panama Canal Zone.

Now, however, the Senate has moved to put that minor controversy to rest. Yesterday, the Senate passed a resolution declaring that McCain is a natural-born citizen. The resolution was passed by unanimous consent. More surprising than the result, however, was the fact that the bill was written and submitted by Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill (D-MO), and co sponsored by both Democratic presidential candidates, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), and Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL). Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Legal and Constitutional scholars have said that there is little chance that McCain would be declared anything other than a natural-born citizen. The Supreme Court has held that the children of military and Foreign Service personnel stationed abroad are considered natural-born. Congress has also legislated the issue. So Clinton and Obama risked little in signing on to the resolution. Still the questions about McCain persisted.

But Obama and Clinton did not have to put their names on the Senate Resolution removing any doubt from the issue. It was a gesture of respect, and maybe a bit of good sportsmanship with a touch of good politics thrown in, for McCain's rivals to acknowledge his legitimacy to run in opposition to them. More puzzling, though, is the fact that the measure only garnered one Republican co-sponsor, McCain supporter Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK).

Things peter out even faster when your opponents throw them out. Wonder why the Republicans couldn't do that in Obama's case - well, not really. They're terrified of the teaparty/birthers.

go bowe
05-01-2011, 04:14 PM
People who bring up this birther talk are doing everyone else a terrible injustice. Its really too bad we have become a nation of 45 second news clips. Thats how Barry got elected, not some plot to hide his identity.

The question that should be asked is, how did we, as suposed eductated and enlighted as we are, fall for his BS. I admit I found it great that we elected our first African-American president. I didnt do my homework on the guy.

What I think is more intresting than where he was born is how did a guy who thinks the folowing ever get elected?

" The US constitution is Flawed, because it dosent deal with social justice"
"America was not great until 1965"

and any of his myriad of other sly America bashing comments. That to me is what is outstanding.you wouldn't happen to have links to those two quotes, would you?

i'd like to see what evidence there is that the president actually made those statements or if it's someone else's interpretation...

ClevelandBronco
05-01-2011, 04:22 PM
Where do those quotes come from? Are you sure that quotation marks belong around them? I have a hard time believing the second one, in particular.

The first comment I'd like to see the context. I could say the Constitution is a flawed document, because it gave legal credence to the institution of slavery, but just because I don't think it's perfect doesn't mean I don't think it's one of the most profound pieces of historical wisdom ever made into a governing structure.

If you want to see that quote in the context that led it to be presented here, you'll have to visit the website of The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck.

Sounded like bullshit to me as well. Googling around finds this:

"We recognize that no matter how responsibly we live our lives, hard times or bad luck, a crippling illness or a layoff, may strike any one of us. “There but for the grace of God go I,” we say to ourselves, and so we contribute to programs like Medicare and Social Security, which guarantee us health care and a measure of basic income after a lifetime of hard work; unemployment insurance, which protects us against unexpected job loss; and Medicaid, which provides care for millions of seniors in nursing homes, poor children, and those with disabilities. We are a better country because of these commitments. I’ll go further – we would not be a great country without those commitments."

So, it seems that The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck seized upon this passage to assert that Obama believes that America was not a great country until around 1965 when all these things came together to form the social safety net that we all know and love to hate.

Obama says America sucked until 1965 , reads the headline on this page, http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/04/14/obama-says-america-sucked-until-1965/ and so it was posted here in quotation marks.

orange
05-01-2011, 04:24 PM
People who bring up this birther talk are doing everyone else a terrible injustice. Its really too bad we have become a nation of 45 second news clips. Thats how Barry got elected, not some plot to hide his identity.

It's really too bad we have become a nation that denigrates other people for choices other than our own. That's how the birthers believe they have the right to overturn the clear result of the election.

That to me is what is outstanding.

banyon
05-01-2011, 04:25 PM
If you want to see that quote in the context that led it to be presented here, you'll have to visit the website of The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck.

Sounded like bullshit to me as well. Googling around finds this:

"We recognize that no matter how responsibly we live our lives, hard times or bad luck, a crippling illness or a layoff, may strike any one of us. “There but for the grace of God go I,” we say to ourselves, and so we contribute to programs like Medicare and Social Security, which guarantee us health care and a measure of basic income after a lifetime of hard work; unemployment insurance, which protects us against unexpected job loss; and Medicaid, which provides care for millions of seniors in nursing homes, poor children, and those with disabilities. We are a better country because of these commitments. I’ll go further – we would not be a great country without those commitments."

So, it seems that The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck seized upon this passage to assert that Obama believes that America was not a great country until around 1965 when all these things came together to form the social safety net that we all know and love to hate.

Obama says America sucked until 1965 , reads the headline on this page, http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/04/14/obama-says-america-sucked-until-1965/ and so it was posted here in quotation marks.

That makes sense. Thank you for sparing me having to read anything on that website and/or infecting my computer with whatever communicable spyware associated with it. :thumb:

ClevelandBronco
05-01-2011, 04:30 PM
Let's further assume that the supposed quote about the flawed Constitution has to do with this:

http://www.examiner.com/glenn-beck-in-national/glenn-beck-reveals-obama-s-plan-for-fundamental-transformation-of-america

"Glenn Beck Reveals Obama's Plan for Fundamental Transformation of America

Part 1 - Economical Justice

With important elections tomorrow, according to a new poll, 71% of registered voters think our country is headed in the wrong direction. This is the first in a 3 part series explaining why I think that 71% is right!
Obama's healthcare reform = economic justice = less money for those who worked all their lives paying their taxes = more money for undocumented citizens = the collapse of the economy, of the American Dream.
Obama outlined what he would do to bring about economic justice in the United States, in 2001, on Chicago's public station WBEZ-FM.
He said, 'The US has suffered from a fundamentally flawed Constitution that does not mandate or allow for redistribution of wealth.'"

I think our friend here is definitely a fan of The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck.

ClevelandBronco
05-01-2011, 04:37 PM
Sorry, tmh. We may both want Obama gone, but we all kinda have gentlemen's agreements in place about sources for the facts we throw out here.

banyon
05-01-2011, 04:38 PM
Let's further assume that the supposed quote about the flawed Constitution has to do with this:

http://www.examiner.com/glenn-beck-in-national/glenn-beck-reveals-obama-s-plan-for-fundamental-transformation-of-america

"Glenn Beck Reveals Obama's Plan for Fundamental Transformation of America

Part 1 - Economical Justice

With important elections tomorrow, according to a new poll, 71% of registered voters think our country is headed in the wrong direction. This is the first in a 3 part series explaining why I think that 71% is right!
Obama's healthcare reform = economic justice = less money for those who worked all their lives paying their taxes = more money for undocumented citizens = the collapse of the economy, of the American Dream.
Obama outlined what he would do to bring about economic justice in the United States, in 2001, on Chicago's public station WBEZ-FM.
He said, 'The US has suffered from a fundamentally flawed Constitution that does not mandate or allow for redistribution of wealth.'"

I think our friend here is definitely a fan of The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck.

Wow, that one's just a total distortion:

<object width='320' height='240'><param name='movie' value='http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/flash/pl55.swf'></param><param name='flashvars' value='config=http://mediamatters.org/embed/cfg3?id=200810270008'></param><param name='allowscriptaccess' value='always'></param><param name='allownetworking' value='all'></param><embed src='http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/flash/pl55.swf' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' flashvars='config=http://mediamatters.org/embed/cfg3?id=200810270008' allowscriptaccess='always' allowfullscreen='true' width='320' height='240'></embed></object>

http://mediamatters.org/research/200810270008

ClevelandBronco
05-01-2011, 04:40 PM
Wow, that one's just a total distortion:

<object width='320' height='240'><param name='movie' value='http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/flash/pl55.swf'></param><param name='flashvars' value='config=http://mediamatters.org/embed/cfg3?id=200810270008'></param><param name='allowscriptaccess' value='always'></param><param name='allownetworking' value='all'></param><embed src='http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/flash/pl55.swf' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' flashvars='config=http://mediamatters.org/embed/cfg3?id=200810270008' allowscriptaccess='always' allowfullscreen='true' width='320' height='240'></embed></object>

http://mediamatters.org/research/200810270008

Distortion? From The Infamous Weasel Glenn Beck? Say it ain't so, Joe.

patteeu
05-01-2011, 04:43 PM
People who bring up this birther talk are doing everyone else a terrible injustice. Its really too bad we have become a nation of 45 second news clips. Thats how Barry got elected, not some plot to hide his identity.

The question that should be asked is, how did we, as suposed eductated and enlighted as we are, fall for his BS. I admit I found it great that we elected our first African-American president. I didnt do my homework on the guy.

What I think is more intresting than where he was born is how did a guy who thinks the folowing ever get elected?

" The US constitution is Flawed, because it dosent deal with social justice"
"America was not great until 1965"

and any of his myriad of other sly America bashing comments. That to me is what is outstanding.

No offense intended, but perhaps if there wasn't a plot to hide his identity, people like you wouldn't have had such a hard time doing your homework. Completely aside from the "born in Hawaii" issue, there was very little interest on the part of the mainstream media to investigate the background of our current POTUS and expose just how unprepared for this job he really was. Had they shown more interest in that legitimate news, casual voters might have had a better chance of casting a vote for which they wouldn't have come to regret.

And I mean the part about "no offense intended". There were a lot of people who aren't politics junkies who were misled by the fawning coverage of the media during the 2008 campaign. SNL even joked about the fact that the media was handling Obama with kid gloves to an extraordinary degree.

ClevelandBronco
05-01-2011, 04:48 PM
No offense intended, but perhaps if there wasn't a plot to hide his identity, people like you wouldn't have had such a hard time doing your homework. Completely aside from the "born in Hawaii" issue, there was very little interest on the part of the mainstream media to investigate the background of our current POTUS and expose just how unprepared for this job he really was. Had they shown more interest in that legitimate news, casual voters might have had a better chance of casting a vote for which they wouldn't have come to regret.

And I mean the part about "no offense intended". There were a lot of people who aren't politics junkies who were misled by the fawning coverage of the media during the 2008 campaign. SNL even joked about the fact that the media was handling Obama with kid gloves to an extraordinary degree.

Well, y'know, he's black and all, and that's a really good thing. Shit, that's all I asked my last investment adviser.

Baby Lee
05-01-2011, 05:12 PM
Here's a little refresher:

A few things to place in context.

First off, my sole interest in this is, in light of the fact that someone like Schwarzenegger can NEVER EVER, no matter how compelling his case or how clear his allegiance, be elected president because we have a hard and fast rule in our Constitution mandating natural born status, the issue needs conclusive and thorough vetting for every candidate.

I bear no illusions that Obama is a plant with desires on US destruction. A separate question from the consequences of policies he justifiably believes to be in the nation's best interests on which we differ.

Regarding their respective births, McCain has established facts with a question of law underlying it, while Obama's facts are what are at issue. Start with a internationally travelling mother, add a non-citizen father, then considerable early youth undisputedly outside the nation's borders, then when you heap official reticence to transparency when inquiries arise, and questions linger. OTOH, McCain's facts are undisputed, and the sole question is 'does a person born on a US military base, to citizen parents, placed there at the order of the US government, qualify as 'naturally born?'' A tough sell to all partisan stripes save the most stridently power hungry.

With all that "[s]till the questions about McCain persisted." Kudos on the Dems for choosing their fights [again, with the writing on the wall that McCain was going down]. Also note that Reps didn't join in, suggesting rather than simply being scared of the tea party in this one case, they're averse to deciding constitutional muster by resolution or opinion statements generally.

BucEyedPea
05-01-2011, 06:13 PM
It is interesting viewing politics with a sound memory.

Saw a recent post [not here, probably at Huffpo or somesort] railing about how there were serious problems with McCain's birth that were completely unexamined, serving as proof that this was a racial thing.

I seem to recall a fairly robust discussion of McCain's birth, that petered out as 1) the issue was fairly cut and dried, and more importantly, 2) it was clear the guy was going to lose.

Similarly, I saw a webchat seeking to elide the racism case to a more amorphous 'classism' charge, noting that 'the right' sought to paint Clinton as a hayseed, trailer-park type. It immediately struck me that it was the Clinton team that brought up 'waving a five dollar bill in a trailer park' to attack political enemies.

It's amazing what issues are 'railed on incessantly' or 'barely discussed' based on your political POV.

And wasn't it the Clinton's that first raised this point about Obama not being born in America?

orange
05-01-2011, 06:35 PM
And wasn't it the Clinton's that first raised this point about Obama not being born in America?

Link?

Baby Lee
05-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Link?

IIRC, it was actually the PUMAs.

Primary Doc - http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/1/

BucEyedPea
05-01-2011, 07:30 PM
Link?

For a question?


It was not rhetorical.

patteeu
05-05-2011, 08:25 PM
i see your point and don't disagree other than to say that it could be more like the release of the bc might satisfy 20% of the critics and but not the remaining 80%...

It looks like the reality is right down the middle. This Washington Post poll (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/behind-the-numbers/post/number_of_birthers_plummets/2011/05/04/AF3GAZxF_blog.html?wprss=behind-the-numbers) taken just after Obama's release of his birth certificate shows a 50% reduction in people who believe he was born outside the US.

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/o-birth.jpg

NewChief
05-18-2011, 03:03 PM
Oh Lord... I want to gift one of these to SS so very badly:

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/birthers/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/05/18/obama_campaing_birther_merchandise
Birthers
WEDNESDAY, MAY 18, 2011 13:52 ET
WAR ROOM
Obama campaign now selling birther merchandise
BY NATASHA LENNARD

iStockphoto/luissantos84/BarackObama.com
If there was any doubt that Obama would eventually benefit from the Birther controversy, his campaign has just put it to rest. And with marketing panache.

The Obama 2012 campaign is now giving away Birther merchandise -- t-shirts and mugs -- to donors who give over a certain amount ($15 or more for a mug, $25 0r more for a t-shirt).

The merchandise features the president's face looming above the slogan "Made in U.S.A", as well as an image of his long-form birth ceritificate.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/18/obama_campaing_birther_merchandise/md_horiz.jpg
The Nation reports on an email from Julianna Smoot, Obama's deputy campaign manager, who commented on the swag:

"There's really no way to make this stuff completely go away," Smoot notes, referring to a new conspiracy book called, Where's the Birth Certificate?. " The only thing we can do is laugh at it," she suggests, "and make sure as many other people as possible are in on the joke."

And as the donations pour in, Obama really will have the last laugh on the Birther issue.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/18/obama_campaing_birther_merchandise/mug.jpg
The mug as shown on the donate page of BarackObama.com

FD
05-18-2011, 03:09 PM
Please someone order a shirt for sportsshrink.

durtyrute
05-18-2011, 03:09 PM
If I had that mug, I would pee in it...then












I would laugh

CoMoChief
05-18-2011, 05:37 PM
uh ohh....

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2a7IFDfEGuk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>