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KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 12:10 AM
Armed agents invade Maxam Nutraceutics and steal natural health products in shocking FDA raid

Wednesday, April 27, 2011 by: Ethan A. Huff, staff writer

(NaturalNews) Amidst all the destructive activities taking place in our world today that deserve attention, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has decided instead to make it a personal mission to destroy the businesses and livelihoods of those trying to help people through natural medicine.

On Thursday, April 14, 2011, dozens of agents from the FDA, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) conducted an unprovoked, full-scale raid on Hood River, Ore.-based Maxam Nutraceutics, a company that produces and sells nutritional supplements primarily for autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and Alzheimer's disease.

Back in October 12, 2010, the FDA sent a warning letter to Jim Cole, Founder and CEO of Maxam, notifying him that several of his company's products were not labeled in accordance with the US Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. The letter also stated that Maxam had fifteen days from the receipt of the letter to notify the FDA compliance officer of the specific steps it planned to take in order to correct the violations.

You can view a copy of the FDA warning letter here, complete with the name of the FDA compliance officer to whom Jim and his company were instructed to respond, and the FDA district director who sent the letter:
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcemen...

Oddly enough, the vast majority of the "unapproved labels" in question were not actually labels at all. They were merely customer testimonials about the products that had been accumulated over the years from satisfied customers, and posted online alongside product descriptions on Maxam's website. Nevertheless, the FDA considered the testimonials to be marketing violations that automatically rendered the products as drugs.

According to Jim, his company immediately responded to the FDA letter by calling the compliance officer and telling her "it was [the company's] intention to come into full compliance as quickly as possible." This included removing all the offending testimonials from the company website after being told by the FDA compliance officer that they were not permitted.

"I contacted a patent and copyright attorney, and he had written [the compliance officer] a letter that it was our intention to come into full compliance," said Jim, noting that his company responded within two days of receiving the FDA warning letter, long before the 15-day deadline period. "So we took down the testimonials, and we thought that was good. And I hired an FDA copyright person [who] went over all the offending verbiage through the website."

Jim cooperated with every demand that the FDA made of him, and was convinced that all was well. But apparently the FDA had different ideas when out of nowhere, the agency, along with the IRS and the FBI, sent as many as 80 armed, SWAT-style agents to both Maxam headquarters, the company's "Big Gym" training center, and even Jim's daughter's house, to confiscate all the products, company documents, and even personal files and computers.

"They took all our products, all our paperwork, all our files -- we've been doing this since 1992 and they pulled everything," said Jim. "They brought in three big moving vans, they had their guns on, their bullet-proof vests -- they came prepared for war."

The armed agents also stole 27 TurboSonic machines, which is a sound-actuated vibration plate device that Jim invented to stimulate growth plates in the body, improve circulation, energize the lymphatic system, and improve muscle strength. The TurboSonic machines were not even mentioned in the FDA warning letter.

"We also have a big Olympic training center up here called the 'Big Gym' -- they went into the gym, they took all the paperwork, all the computer, hard drives, downloaded all of our servers, and trashed a couple of our servers going out," added Jim. "They took products that were not on the list. I had an old bodybuilding line that went back to 1992, they took all of that. They pretty much just had a free-for-all."

According to Jim, the agents stole "hundreds of thousands of dollars in products" as part of the raid, as well as personal files, insurance policies, non-printed checks, and even unopened packages of manila filing folders from an office supply store. Clearly, the FDA's intent was to terrorize and intimidate this small company that, from all available accounts, did absolutely nothing wrong.

Maxam is currently "waiting for the dust to settle" as it pursues legal action against the offending agencies. Until then, the world must know about this terrible injustice and crime against humanity. The FDA has clearly shown itself to be a terrorist organization that has no respect for the rule of law, or for common decency. To perform a SWAT-style raid against a company that was doing everything it could to follow the law and conduct business honestly and legally is a travesty in this supposed "land of the free."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032203_Maxam_Nutraceutics_FDA_raid.html#ixzz1KnNg1PKg

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Yup! FDA destroys the competition for the big pharms-medical complex. As if someone's going to die from these largely untreatable conditions.

LOCOChief
04-28-2011, 07:39 AM
To bad they don't give the compliance officers name and address. It's time in this country for some old school accountablity measures.

Jaric
04-28-2011, 07:49 AM
Yup! FDA destroys the competition for the big pharms-medical complex. As if someone's going to die from these largely untreatable conditions.

Considering some of the side effects on drugs that get passed (Anal leakage??? wtf?) I doubt the natural remedies could be any worse.

headsnap
04-28-2011, 07:53 AM
Considering some of the side effects on drugs that get passed (Anal leakage??? wtf?) I doubt the natural remedies could be any worse.
Potato chips though addictive, are not drugs... ;)

Fish
04-28-2011, 08:03 AM
Sounds like this Maxam Nutraceutics(LOL) has been scamming people and mislabeling items fooling people into thinking it cures various things. Personally, I hate that type of practice, and I'm glad the Feds stepped in. Companies like this sell worthless vitamins and supplements while illegally and unethically giving people hope that it will cure their ails. They're nothing but modern snake oil salesmen. Fuck them.

http://scamfraudalert.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/maxam-nutraceutics/

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Even if it were snake oil it should be up to the consumer to choose, land of the free right?

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:05 AM
Sounds like this Maxam Nutraceutics(LOL) has been scamming people and mislabeling items fooling people into thinking it cures various things. Personally, I hate that type of practice, and I'm glad the Feds stepped in. Companies like this sell worthless vitamins and supplements while illegally and unethically giving people hope that it will cure their ails. They're nothing but modern snake oil salesmen. **** them.

http://scamfraudalert.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/maxam-nutraceutics/

That sounds like the pharmaceutical industry.

Jaric
04-28-2011, 08:05 AM
Potato chips though addictive, are not drugs... ;)
God, talk about one of the worst ideas ever. These chips won't make you fat, but they will make you shit your pants.

But I was actually refering to an actual drug where one of the side effects was anal leakage or something to that effect. My favorite though are the anti-depressent drugs that make you suicidal. That seems like pouring gas on a fire trying to put it out to me.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:07 AM
God, talk about one of the worst ideas ever. These chips won't make you fat, but they will make you shit your pants.

But I was actually refering to an actual drug where one of the side effects was anal leakage or something to that effect. My favorite though are the anti-depressent drugs that make you suicidal. That seems like pouring gas on a fire trying to put it out to me.

Even though unstated Taco Bell is a nice cheap way to clean your system.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:08 AM
To bad they don't give the compliance officers name and address. It's time in this country for some old school accountability measures.

This!

Fish
04-28-2011, 08:15 AM
Even if it were snake oil it should be up to the consumer to choose, land of the free right?

Seriously? So if I go to your hypothetical Grandma's house this afternoon, and convince her to buy this salve I have because another customer claims it cured their arthritis. And I charge her $30 for this stuff, which actually does absolutely nothing for her arthritis. But even though she's poor, she buys it anyway because she's desperate for a cure and not smart enough to realize she's being scammed.

You're saying that's all cool in your book? That selling something under false and illegal pretenses is OK? That preying on people with debilitating conditions is OK?

F that, pal.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:17 AM
Seriously? So if I go to your hypothetical Grandma's house this afternoon, and convince her to buy this salve I have because another customer claims it cured their arthritis. And I charge her $30 for this stuff, which actually does absolutely nothing for her arthritis. But even though she's poor, she buys it anyway because she's desperate for a cure and not smart enough to realize she's being scammed.

You're saying that's all cool in your book? That selling something under false and illegal pretenses is OK? That preying on people with debilitating conditions is OK?

F that, pal.

Ever seen a drug ad? bad marketing is a way of life in America, i don't think it requires an agency with WMD's to keep us safe.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Sounds like this Maxam Nutraceutics(LOL) has been scamming people and mislabeling items fooling people into thinking it cures various things. Personally, I hate that type of practice, and I'm glad the Feds stepped in. Companies like this sell worthless vitamins and supplements while illegally and unethically giving people hope that it will cure their ails. They're nothing but modern snake oil salesmen. **** them.

http://scamfraudalert.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/maxam-nutraceutics/

These claims by govt agencies can be based on false reports, but not always. These supplements are less harmful than many properly prescribed pharmaceuticals. In fact more people die from property prescribed pharmaceuticals than they do from guns. Just look at the list of all the side-effects you see at the end of each prescription drug commercial. You assume that's ethical by comparison?

Really, though, this thinking is right out of Kool-Aidville. How do you know if vitamins are worthless or unethical to use. It's not like it will harm in these largely untreatable cases. I use integrative healthcare both natural treatments and medical. I reject some natural and some medical. This is my right.

Iowanian
04-28-2011, 08:23 AM
Thanks for that and the free gas, Obama.

Fish
04-28-2011, 08:25 AM
That sounds like the pharmaceutical industry.

Not really. The pharmaceutical industry operates under a very strict set of standards. Everything they sell has to pass FDA evaluation. They can't slap a label on the side of the bottle claiming that the pills inside do something that they don't. And they have to be careful in identifying exactly what the product does do. That's why you see strange shit like a crazy list of side effects like anal leakage on pharmaceuticals. Because they're required by law to do so.

With the "supplement" industry, that's not the case. They have no FDA evaluation for their products. And as so, they can't sell a vitamin claiming it helps with Alzheimers.

The "supplement" industry has been skirting the laws for quite some time scamming people with products that do absolutely nothing for people's afflictions. I'm glad to see some of these bastards get what they deserve.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 08:27 AM
Seriously? So if I go to your hypothetical Grandma's house this afternoon, and convince her to buy this salve I have because another customer claims it cured their arthritis. And I charge her $30 for this stuff, which actually does absolutely nothing for her arthritis. But even though she's poor, she buys it anyway because she's desperate for a cure and not smart enough to realize she's being scammed.

You're saying that's all cool in your book? That selling something under false and illegal pretenses is OK? That preying on people with debilitating conditions is OK?

F that, pal.
You don't know if that's being done under false or illegal pretenses. You just accept the allegation without a fact finding trial. Besides what is illegal about it?

I didn't know all forms of arthritis, over a hundred forms, had a cure. They have different causes. Some from injury, some from age, some from imbalances. How do you know if it did nothing for her? Maybe it just alleviated symptoms the way BioFreeze does muscle aches. Or losing weight or finding an allergy to a food that can cause it. Some things are a way of reducing pain or controlling inflammation or just help someone deal with it. What's wrong with treating symptoms which is what medical drugs just do anyway. Especially when there's no known cure.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:28 AM
Thanks for that and the free gas, Obama.

Ya i'm still waiting for my free stuff, meanwhile i have to pay more for everything thanks to the collapsing dollar.

Iowanian
04-28-2011, 08:29 AM
Thanks Obama!

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 08:30 AM
Not really. The pharmaceutical industry operates under a very strict set of standards. Everything they sell has to pass FDA evaluation. They can't slap a label on the side of the bottle claiming that the pills inside do something that they don't. And they have to be careful in identifying exactly what the product does do. That's why you see strange shit like a crazy list of side effects like anal leakage on pharmaceuticals. Because they're required by law to do so.

With the "supplement" industry, that's not the case. They have no FDA evaluation for their products. And as so, they can't sell a vitamin claiming it helps with Alzheimers.

The "supplement" industry has been skirting the laws for quite some time scamming people with products that do absolutely nothing for people's afflictions. I'm glad to see some of these bastards get what they deserve.

That's why these items have a LARGE disclaimer on the side stating the FDA has not evaluated these statements, ie use at your own risk. Is it the land of the free or the nanny state?

Fish
04-28-2011, 08:36 AM
These claims by govt agencies can be based on false reports, but not always. These supplements are less harmful than many properly prescribed pharmaceuticals. In fact more people die from property prescribed pharmaceuticals than they do from guns. Just look at the list of all the side-effects you see at the end of each prescription drug commercial. You assume that's ethical by comparison?

Really, though, this thinking is right out of Kool-Aidville. How do you know if vitamins are worthless or unethical to use. It's not like it will harm in these largely untreatable cases. I use integrative healthcare both natural treatments and medical. I reject some natural and some medical. This is my right.

Yes more people die from properly prescribed pharmaceuticals. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this. Those pharmaceuticals have been evaluated and tested by the FDA. People know what goes into them, and the affects it causes because of that regulation. The side effects are listed, just like you say. Do you think they pharma companies like putting that scary list of side effects on the side of the bottles? No, but doing so ensures that people know what they're getting. The fact that people have that information, and abuse them anyway doesn't change anything.

There is no testing or regulation for supplements. Hence, it is illegal to claim that they treat or cure anything. It's that simple. It may not physically harm people in most cases, but it can certainly harm their pocketbook and deter them from products that will actually help them.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 08:37 AM
Not really. The pharmaceutical industry operates under a very strict set of standards.

I forget who the guy is, but there's a YouTube video by a man who worked in marketing ( I think it was or research) for a big pharmaceutical firm, who mentions the fraud that big pharma engages in too. They like to make a buck too....and they make a heck of a lot more than natural treatments too. They also like to get rid of any competition too. Having alternatives available helps keep them honest. Something better be blatantly dangerous and unsafe to be made illegal. This is much less true of natural treatments than pharmaceuticals. You might want to look at some of the class action lawsuits on things like Lipitor and the acne medication, Accutane.

Accutane Lawsuits on side effects (http://www.accutanelawsuits.org/)

Lipitor class action lawsuits expand; Pfizer cover-up alleged (http://www.naturalnews.com/020269.html)

List of Pharmaceutical-Lawsuits (http://www.pharmaceutical-lawsuits.com/2005/04/drug-list.html)

The Avalanche of Pharmaceutical Lawsuits- Linked to USA Today report (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2006/09/05/the-avalanche-of-pharmaceutical-lawsuits.aspx)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/drugs/2006-08-23-drug-lawsuits-usat_x.htm

65,000 lawsuits from year 2000 to 2006. Big Pharma is raking in billions and they are corrupt and protected by the FDA.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 08:45 AM
Yes more people die from properly prescribed pharmaceuticals. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this. Those pharmaceuticals have been evaluated and tested by the FDA. People know what goes into them, and the affects it causes because of that regulation. The side effects are listed, just like you say. Do you think they pharma companies like putting that scary list of side effects on the side of the bottles? No, but doing so ensures that people know what they're getting. The fact that people have that information, and abuse them anyway doesn't change anything.

There is no testing or regulation for supplements. Hence, it is illegal to claim that they treat or cure anything. It's that simple. It may not physically harm people in most cases, but it can certainly harm their pocketbook and deter them from products that will actually help them.

You crack me up. Testing or regulations for supplements? You have got to be joking! Vitamins are food and do not have side effects like pharmacueticals. No where near the order of magnitude in danger if any. I can see it if there is an allergy or something a doctor claims can interfere with a drug. It doesn't harm their pocketbooks any more than buying something else that has no benefit to them like a tv set. Some fillers in the supplements someone can have an allergy to but that's very individual and cannot be regulated. Besides those fillers are listed on the bottle. And some do list some side effects. Evening Primrose Oil that women can take to help with symptoms on their menstrual cycles says right on it that it can cause headaches which it does. I stopped using it because I get headaches and many of them stopped. One can even be tested to see which brand works better because the nutrients are absorbed better—also an individual thing. Buyers should be able to have that choice and make that determination instead of the govt interfering like we live in a fascism. You don't have two sides of the story, experience and knowledge of natural treatments enough to make such sweeping claims that they are ALL or mostly harmful. You just trust a bunch of govt bureaucrats connected to big-pharma.

Fish
04-28-2011, 08:48 AM
You don't know if that's being done under false or illegal pretenses. You just accept the allegation without a fact finding trial. Besides what is illegal about it?

I didn't know all forms of arthritis, over a hundred forms, had a cure. They have different causes. Some from injury, some from age, some from imbalances. How do you know if it did nothing for her? Maybe it just alleviated symptoms the way BioFreeze does muscle aches. Or losing weight or finding an allergy to a food that can cause it. Some things are a way of reducing pain or controlling inflammation or just help someone deal with it. What's wrong with treating symptoms which is what medical drugs just do anyway. Especially when there's no known cure.

LOL.... yes I do. Read the link I posted above, and it will tell you exactly what they did wrong and why it's illegal. And the fact that they were raided and arrested kinda confirms that.

As inefficient and fucked up as the FDA is, it still exists to protect the people. Without it, I believe we would be much worse off. And when supplement companies skirt the FDA, and falsely give people the impression that their products treat or cure a disease like this case, they deserve to be reprimanded.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 08:48 AM
Yes more people die from properly prescribed pharmaceuticals. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this. Those pharmaceuticals have been evaluated and tested by the FDA. People know what goes into them, and the affects it causes because of that regulation.

ROFL

I took an allergy pill for years that, it turns out, causes heart problems. That wasn't listed as a side effect. Where was your FDA on that one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 08:52 AM
LOL.... yes I do. Read the link I posted above, and it will tell you exactly what they did wrong and why it's illegal. And the fact that they were raided and arrested kinda confirms that.

Alan Northrop (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351402/Man-wrongfully-convicted-rape-freed-17-years-receives-compensation-does-hit-child-maintenance-bill.html) might argue with your logic.

As inefficient and ****ed up as the FDA is, it still exists to protect the people. Without it, I believe we would be much worse off. And when supplement companies skirt the FDA, and falsely give people the impression that their products treat or cure a disease like this case, they deserve to be reprimanded.

The intent of a program or agency is of zero value to me. I'm only concerned with its effectiveness.

Fish
04-28-2011, 09:00 AM
ROFL

I took an allergy pill for years that, it turns out, causes heart problems. That wasn't listed as a side effect. Where was your FDA on that one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

Do you honestly believe that pill would have been removed from the market without the FDAs existence?

Perhaps you're lucky that the FDA continues testing beyond the release date of the medication, or that side effect wouldn't have been noticed and many people would still be taking it. Without the FDA, you would be relying on the pharma company to do something in the best interest of their customers that would have a financial impact on them. I'm sure you simply trust the pharma company in that situation right?

Again, I'm not praising the FDA or claiming it's perfect. But to act like it doesn't protect the population from the pharmaceutical companies is absurd.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:09 AM
Ever seen a drug ad? bad marketing is a way of life in America, i don't think it requires an agency with WMD's to keep us safe.

You mean the drug ads that list all the major side effects? You're a fucking retard sometimes, K_C.

You say that Big Pharma is the same thing as these scammers? Yeah, except that they invest billions of dollars into RND and actually create medicines that actually let people live longer. You have no idea how many lives have been saved just by Plavix alone. I hope your loved ones never suffer from heart attacks even if that means you stay your ignorant self.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Do you honestly believe that pill would have been removed from the market without the FDAs existence?

Perhaps you're lucky that the FDA continues testing beyond the release date of the medication, or that side effect wouldn't have been noticed and many people would still be taking it. Without the FDA, you would be relying on the pharma company to do something in the best interest of their customers that would have a financial impact on them. I'm sure you simply trust the pharma company in that situation right?

Again, I'm not praising the FDA or claiming it's perfect. But to act like it doesn't protect the population from the pharmaceutical companies is absurd.

And now it's protecting me from vitamins and walnut companies (http://www.fda.gov/iceci/enforcementactions/warningletters/ucm202825.htm) too. How good of them.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 09:16 AM
You mean the drug ads that list all the major side effects? You're a ****ing retard sometimes, K_C.

You say that Big Pharma is the same thing as these scammers? Yeah, except that they invest billions of dollars into RND and actually create medicines that actually let people live longer. You have no idea how many lives have been saved just by Plavix alone. I hope your loved ones never suffer from heart attacks even if that means you stay your ignorant self.

How many drugs are sitting on the shelf waiting for FDA approval while terminal people die, waiting for the feds to make sure the drug is safe for someone who's already dying?

I'm ok with the FDA doing testing and letting us know what those tests said, but I'm not ok with the FDA deciding for my doctor and I what I can or can't put in my body.

Now, under those rules there will most certainly be a group of rubes who will die taking things they shouldn't have been. It's called natural selection. It worked to get our species where it is.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 09:20 AM
You mean the drug ads that list all the major side effects? You're a ****ing retard sometimes, K_C.

You say that Big Pharma is the same thing as these scammers? Yeah, except that they invest billions of dollars into RND and actually create medicines that actually let people live longer. You have no idea how many lives have been saved just by Plavix alone. I hope your loved ones never suffer from heart attacks even if that means you stay your ignorant self.

Yes since my mom has been taking Plavix she's only had 2 heart surgeries, now the fact she won't change her diet to something that could actually help her that probably has nothing to do with it.

http://www.interinactive.com/stuff/derp.png

Fish
04-28-2011, 09:24 AM
How many drugs are sitting on the shelf waiting for FDA approval while terminal people die, waiting for the feds to make sure the drug is safe for someone who's already dying?

I'm ok with the FDA doing testing and letting us know what those tests said, but I'm not ok with the FDA deciding for my doctor and I what I can or can't put in my body.

Now, under those rules there will most certainly be a group of rubes who will die taking things they shouldn't have been. It's called natural selection. It worked to get our species where it is.

Wow... really?

You would prefer that medication is just rushed to the market without testing or regulation, and the group of rubes that could die because of it are just chalked up to natural selection?

That's nice.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:25 AM
How many drugs are sitting on the shelf waiting for FDA approval while terminal people die, waiting for the feds to make sure the drug is safe for someone who's already dying?

I'm ok with the FDA doing testing and letting us know what those tests said, but I'm not ok with the FDA deciding for my doctor and I what I can or can't put in my body.

Now, under those rules there will most certainly be a group of rubes who will die taking things they shouldn't have been. It's called natural selection. It worked to get our species where it is.

If that was the case, the FDA would just get flooded by pharmaceutical companies along with everyone else because they can put all those drugs on the shelves claiming whatever they want and make a shit ton of money on the uniformed consumers. The FDA could never keep up with that (shit, they can't keep up under the current system) and 90% of the shit on the shelves and in pharmacies would be untested.

It comes down to whether our world would be better without the FDA and the answer is a resounding no.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 09:26 AM
Wow... really?

You would prefer that medication is just rushed to the market without testing or regulation, and the group of rubes that could die because of it are just chalked up to natural selection?

That's nice.

In most cases the companies police themselves and the FDA/Pharma are generally a revolving door.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 09:27 AM
“I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery.”
Thomas Jefferson

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:28 AM
Yes since my mom has been taking Plavix she's only had 2 heart surgeries, now the fact she won't change her diet to something that could actually help her that probably has nothing to do with it.

http://www.interinactive.com/stuff/derp.png

Diet doesn't have as much to do with cholesterol as genetics unless you're eating incredibly bad. And yeah, you should probably be thankful that Plavix exists because without it, you probably would not have your mother right now. And I'm afraid you're the naive one, here, little buddy.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:29 AM
“I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery.”
Thomas Jefferson

I prefer a balance because I live in the real world.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 09:31 AM
Diet doesn't have as much to do with cholesterol as genetics unless you're eating incredibly bad. And yeah, you should probably be thankful that Plavix exists because without it, you probably would not have your mother right now. And I'm afraid you're the naive one, here, little buddy.

I could easily argue that proper diet and a Fish oil supplement would have gone a lot further and a whole lot cheaper.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 09:31 AM
Wow... really?

You would prefer that medication is just rushed to the market without testing or regulation, and the group of rubes that could die because of it are just chalked up to natural selection?

That's nice.

If you had cancer and had one month to live, and all the approved treatments had been tried and all failed, you wouldn't try taking some experimental drug with unknown side effects? I can't think of a good reason, outside of expense, to not be the lab rat there. I would assume the pharmaceutical company would be happy to work with you on price for the research.

I'm not saying we put it on the shelves at CVS, but why the hell shouldn't someone who is in a doctor's care have the option? Will some people wind up hiring a doctor who is getting kickbacks from the drug company and not bother to look? Maybe. It's a risk I'm willing to take. I'm tired of limiting my options in order to protect stupid and lazy people from potentially making bad decisions.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 09:33 AM
I prefer a balance because I live in the real world.

You don't argue for a balance though. The balance was passed many moons ago.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:41 AM
I could easily argue that proper diet and a Fish oil supplement would have gone a lot further and a whole lot cheaper.

No, you couldn't.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:43 AM
If you had cancer and had one month to live, and all the approved treatments had been tried and all failed, you wouldn't try taking some experimental drug with unknown side effects? I can't think of a good reason, outside of expense, to not be the lab rat there. I would assume the pharmaceutical company would be happy to work with you on price for the research.

I'm not saying we put it on the shelves at CVS, but why the hell shouldn't someone who is in a doctor's care have the option? Will some people wind up hiring a doctor who is getting kickbacks from the drug company and not bother to look? Maybe. It's a risk I'm willing to take. I'm tired of limiting my options in order to protect stupid and lazy people from potentially making bad decisions.

So how do you suggest FDA makes that happen? How would you prevent CVS from stocking their shelves with drugs that claim to cure Alzheimer's over time but in reality give you liver failures? CVS would make a lot of money on something like that so they would obviously stock and sell something like that if it was legal.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 09:46 AM
No, you couldn't.

Super Omega-3 fat protects the heart and arteries and can prevent blindness

(NaturalNews) As the population of American baby boomers continues to swell, age related afflictions including diabetes, cardiovascular disease and complications such as blindness are growing at a similar pace. The number of people aged 65 or older will double over the next 20 years creating an epidemic of chronic conditions that perpetuate with age. According to the result of a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, a diet supplemented with the Omega-3 fatty acid DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) can significantly lower the risk of sudden cardiac death, heart disease and visual degeneration leading to blindness.

Many scientific studies have proven the importance of Omega-3 fish oils in the prevention of cardiac disorders and in specifically lowering the risk of sudden death from a heart attack. Research conducted by the Division of Cardiology and Department of Medicine at the University of Maryland found that the DHA fraction of fish oil dramatically alters the mitochondria in the heart muscle increasing healthy heart energy production. Researchers found that DHA activates the gene PPAR to help prevent the increasing incidence of heart failure and of risk from a deadly heart attack.

Another key component in the progression of cardiovascular disease is systemic inflammation that leads to unstable plaque known to rupture and cause a heart attack. Further evidence of the importance of DHA in lowering heart diseases risk is published in the journal Nature Chemical Biology. Researchers found that DHA influences the action of immune system macrophages. Working at the genetic level, DHA is shown to control the release of cellular antioxidants that inhibit the damage caused by excessive and chronic inflammation to the coronary arteries.

DHA is an important tool in the prevention of stroke. Many of the mechanisms that increase incidence of a heart attack also contribute to stroke risk. DHA becomes incorporated into the cell wall structure where it stabilizes existing plaque, making it less likely to break off and cause a stroke. DHA has been shown to help blood flow easier, lower the risk for clotting and reduce blood pressure. High levels of DHA can prevent hardening and thickening of the arteries that result in vascular decay.

The journal Science Translational Medicine reports the result of research that demonstrates how DHA regulated genes that can prevent blindness. DHA is highly concentrated in the retina and can control the abnormal growth of blood vessels in the eye that cause visual degradation. By halting unnecessary growth, DHA regulates vessel formation so that healthy blood vessels form and undesirable ones do not.

Fatty fish such as salmon, mackerel, herring and trout are ideal sources of Omega-3 fats including the DHA fraction. Due to the ever-increasing problem of mercury contamination in fish, supplementation is well advised. Nutrition experts recommend a molecularly distilled, dosage-controlled supplement that supplies 250 to 500 mg of DHA (not EPA and DHA combined, read labels carefully) daily to dramatically lower the risks from heart disease, heart attack, stroke and blindness.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/031762_omega-3_blindness.html#ixzz1KpirkWxm

Fish
04-28-2011, 09:47 AM
If you had cancer and had one month to live, and all the approved treatments had been tried and all failed, you wouldn't try taking some experimental drug with unknown side effects? I can't think of a good reason, outside of expense, to not be the lab rat there. I would assume the pharmaceutical company would be happy to work with you on price for the research.

I'm not saying we put it on the shelves at CVS, but why the hell shouldn't someone who is in a doctor's care have the option? Will some people wind up hiring a doctor who is getting kickbacks from the drug company and not bother to look? Maybe. It's a risk I'm willing to take. I'm tired of limiting my options in order to protect stupid and lazy people from potentially making bad decisions.

I would absolutely be willing to be a lab rat in that case, no question. And I have no problems with anybody wanting the same in that situation. But I'm not about to make a decision for everyone in the nation and disband the FDA based on my own natural desires to continue living.

Regardless, that doesn't really matter much in relation to the issue in the OP. The issue in the OP is dealing with supplements and illegal claims about those supplements. They're not repressing some life saving drug that terminal patients are waiting on. They're punishing a supplement company for making illegal claims and making money on a product that doesn't do what it says. Can't you see the difference?

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 09:49 AM
I would absolutely be willing to be a lab rat in that case, no question. And I have no problems with anybody wanting the same in that situation. But I'm not about to make a decision for everyone in the nation and disband the FDA based on my own natural desires to continue living.

Regardless, that doesn't really matter much in relation to the issue in the OP. The issue in the OP is dealing with supplements and illegal claims about those supplements. They're not repressing some life saving drug that terminal patients are waiting on. They're punishing a supplement company for making illegal claims and making money on a product that doesn't do what it says. Can't you see the difference?

From the OP

"I contacted a patent and copyright attorney, and he had written [the compliance officer] a letter that it was our intention to come into full compliance," said Jim, noting that his company responded within two days of receiving the FDA warning letter, long before the 15-day deadline period. "So we took down the testimonials, and we thought that was good. And I hired an FDA copyright person [who] went over all the offending verbiage through the website."

Jim cooperated with every demand that the FDA made of him, and was convinced that all was well. But apparently the FDA had different ideas when out of nowhere, the agency, along with the IRS and the FBI, sent as many as 80 armed, SWAT-style agents to both Maxam headquarters, the company's "Big Gym" training center, and even Jim's daughter's house, to confiscate all the products, company documents, and even personal files and computers.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:51 AM
Super Omega-3 fat protects the heart and arteries and can prevent blindness

(NaturalNews) As the population of American baby boomers continues to swell, age related afflictions including diabetes, cardiovascular disease and complications such as blindness are growing at a similar pace. The number of people aged 65 or older will double over the next 20 years creating an epidemic of chronic conditions that perpetuate with age. According to the result of a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, a diet supplemented with the Omega-3 fatty acid DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) can significantly lower the risk of sudden cardiac death, heart disease and visual degeneration leading to blindness.

Many scientific studies have proven the importance of Omega-3 fish oils in the prevention of cardiac disorders and in specifically lowering the risk of sudden death from a heart attack. Research conducted by the Division of Cardiology and Department of Medicine at the University of Maryland found that the DHA fraction of fish oil dramatically alters the mitochondria in the heart muscle increasing healthy heart energy production. Researchers found that DHA activates the gene PPAR to help prevent the increasing incidence of heart failure and of risk from a deadly heart attack.

Another key component in the progression of cardiovascular disease is systemic inflammation that leads to unstable plaque known to rupture and cause a heart attack. Further evidence of the importance of DHA in lowering heart diseases risk is published in the journal Nature Chemical Biology. Researchers found that DHA influences the action of immune system macrophages. Working at the genetic level, DHA is shown to control the release of cellular antioxidants that inhibit the damage caused by excessive and chronic inflammation to the coronary arteries.

DHA is an important tool in the prevention of stroke. Many of the mechanisms that increase incidence of a heart attack also contribute to stroke risk. DHA becomes incorporated into the cell wall structure where it stabilizes existing plaque, making it less likely to break off and cause a stroke. DHA has been shown to help blood flow easier, lower the risk for clotting and reduce blood pressure. High levels of DHA can prevent hardening and thickening of the arteries that result in vascular decay.

The journal Science Translational Medicine reports the result of research that demonstrates how DHA regulated genes that can prevent blindness. DHA is highly concentrated in the retina and can control the abnormal growth of blood vessels in the eye that cause visual degradation. By halting unnecessary growth, DHA regulates vessel formation so that healthy blood vessels form and undesirable ones do not.

Fatty fish such as salmon, mackerel, herring and trout are ideal sources of Omega-3 fats including the DHA fraction. Due to the ever-increasing problem of mercury contamination in fish, supplementation is well advised. Nutrition experts recommend a molecularly distilled, dosage-controlled supplement that supplies 250 to 500 mg of DHA (not EPA and DHA combined, read labels carefully) daily to dramatically lower the risks from heart disease, heart attack, stroke and blindness.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/031762_omega-3_blindness.html#ixzz1KpirkWxm

LOL, I'm well aware of the benefits fish oil provides.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 09:55 AM
Diet doesn't have as much to do with cholesterol as genetics unless you're eating incredibly bad. And yeah, you should probably be thankful that Plavix exists because without it, you probably would not have your mother right now. And I'm afraid you're the naive one here, little buddy.

That's actually false information about cholesterol....including that cholesterol is all bad for you. The conventional allopathic medical folks lag behind accepting such things but they eventually come around to admitting the trailblazers were right. Another thing about it is people have fatty beefy livers loaded with toxins which will overproduce cholesterol. That's due to the modern diet. It accumulates over time.

I met an old man on the net who was on Lipitor who was collapsing from muscle weakness. When I linked a site on this very side effect being part of a class action lawsuit he brought it to his doctor who didn't deny it. He demanded to know why he wasn't told; was taken off of it. He thanked me profusely for the information.

I also have a relative who, it was claimed by one doctor, had the genetics for hi-cholesterol whereby diet would never bring it down. He got a second opinion from a different doctor, an Indian, who was more open to natural treatments. He put him on medically prescribed fish oil and niacin in high doses. The cholesterol came down within weeks. He switched to non-prescription to save money and it did not go back up. Meanwhile, another member in his family stays on Lipitor instead.

Myself, after my daughter was born was having trouble picking up every illness that was going around with constant sore throats and swollen glands along with mysterious rashes and hives after consuming certain foods. I had muscle aches and pains and terrible fatigue. I went to a regular medical doctor who told me I was sick ( as in a pathology) and wanted to run blood work. No pathology showed up. He was mystified.

So I went to a chiropractic internal natural medicine doctor who re-ran the blood work looking for different things. She suspected food allergies. From there I had more blood work where my blood was dipped into 40 foods that were likely allergies. Sure enough that's what was doing it. I came off the foods and I've only had 2 illnesses since—immediately followed by a food hidden in another food. Food allergies suppress the immune system. 80% of the population have one or more and are unaware of it. Not finding them according to some allergy specialists ( which this doctor was) can lead to degenerative diseases and even arthritis. Many would label her a quack. For me she was a miracle worker with my energy returning and all symptoms gone unless buried in another food....including those flavored coffees. ( that's what triggered one illness).

So pooh-pooh such treatments all you want. That's just cultural lag. I've tried a few, seen it in others and some are very effective. Some are not right for certain things though. Like removing a steering wheel from someone or a C-section. Many more medical doctors have opened up to such things and there's been wellness clinics springing up with both medical doctors, naturapaths and chiros teaming up in one for an integrative approach to health care. If something can be treated naturally then use that first. If not, then use allopathic medicine.This is what I use and I don't want the govt telling me what is more effective or not unless it kills.

Pants
04-28-2011, 09:58 AM
The problem was the shitty doctor who didn't warn the old man about the biggest side effect of all statins (which Lipitor is), I mean the commercial itself talks about it, lol. tl;dr the rest

Fish
04-28-2011, 10:00 AM
From the OP

"I contacted a patent and copyright attorney, and he had written [the compliance officer] a letter that it was our intention to come into full compliance," said Jim, noting that his company responded within two days of receiving the FDA warning letter, long before the 15-day deadline period. "So we took down the testimonials, and we thought that was good. And I hired an FDA copyright person [who] went over all the offending verbiage through the website."

Jim cooperated with every demand that the FDA made of him, and was convinced that all was well. But apparently the FDA had different ideas when out of nowhere, the agency, along with the IRS and the FBI, sent as many as 80 armed, SWAT-style agents to both Maxam headquarters, the company's "Big Gym" training center, and even Jim's daughter's house, to confiscate all the products, company documents, and even personal files and computers.

And? About all that says is that the owner thought he had done everything to comply with the laws. Obviously that wasn't the case.

If the owner did do everything to comply, then he shouldn't have anything to worry about when the case goes to trial. In fact he should expect some lawsuit potential. But something tells me that won't be the case...

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 10:01 AM
The problem was the shitty doctor who didn't warn the old man about the biggest side effect of all statins (which Lipitor is), I mean the commercial itself talks about it, lol. tl;dr the rest

Yeah, but some shitty agency allowed it to be sold even though people collapsed on it. Not only that but it's still be sold. LMAO

Brock
04-28-2011, 10:03 AM
I'm glad to hear cholesterol isn't bad for you though. That's useful information.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 10:05 AM
I'm glad to hear cholesterol isn't bad for you though. That's useful information.

Some. As I recall, the amounts being claimed as dangerous aren't so.
Here's some general articles. I guess it comes down to who your trust more.


http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm


Cholesterol Myth that is Harming Your Health (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/mercola51.1.html)

Pants
04-28-2011, 10:08 AM
Yeah, but some shitty agency allowed it to be sold even though people collapsed on it. Not only that but it's still be sold. LMAO

Here's some news for you - every single prescription medication is a poison. It is your doctor's job to decide the appropriate dosage of that poison for you so the benefits outweigh the risks. This is why it's a PRESCRIPTION, your uneducated ass can't just go and buy a bunch of Lipitor and start popping it.

Everything has to be monitored and strictly controlled by your doctor. You get a bunch of bloodwork done when you go on those meds until it is established that they're working as intended. If you experience muscle weakness (only a small minority does) you're supposed to immediately call your doctor and a new course of action will have to be decided upon. You're not supposed to be taking Lipitor to the point where you're collapsing.

Nobody can force anything on you to begin with. If you don't want to take Lipitor, then don't. Go find a new doctor or don't. Nobody cares. What agencies do care about is that you're aware of the risks you take when you ingest those poisons. Sometimes those risks are not always found in time and as a result people die. It would be much much worse without the FDA, though.

Fish
04-28-2011, 10:10 AM
Yeah, but some shitty agency allowed it to be sold even though people collapsed on it. Not only that but it's still be sold. LMAO

Sorry that somebody you know has a shitty doctor who isn't doing his job very well. But the point is that the FDA made the risks known with that drug. That's their responsibility.

It's the doc's(and to a degree, the old man's) responsibility to check for the risks that have been discovered through FDA testing and regulation. It's not the FDA's fault if their warnings were ignored.

Hydrae
04-28-2011, 10:11 AM
Seriously? So if I go to your hypothetical Grandma's house this afternoon, and convince her to buy this salve I have because another customer claims it cured their arthritis. And I charge her $30 for this stuff, which actually does absolutely nothing for her arthritis. But even though she's poor, she buys it anyway because she's desperate for a cure and not smart enough to realize she's being scammed.

You're saying that's all cool in your book? That selling something under false and illegal pretenses is OK? That preying on people with debilitating conditions is OK?

F that, pal.

Two words....caveat emptor

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 10:13 AM
Sorry that somebody you know has a shitty doctor who isn't doing his job very well. But the point is that the FDA made the risks known with that drug. That's their responsibility.
That's an assumption on your behalf. You don't know him and he is doing as millions of other doctors. I live next door to a pharmacist who says they know more about the drugs than doctors.

Provide a link that the FDA knew about the risks. If they did then that goes to prove our point—they allow dangerous drugs that do more harm than vitamins. LOL?

It's the doc's(and to a degree, the old man's) responsibility to check for the risks that have been discovered through FDA testing and regulation. It's not the FDA's fault if their warnings were ignored.

What about all the shitty doctors who reviled Dr. Semmelweis for nearly a hundred years before they accepted his findings? They were all shitty too by your standard.

Pants
04-28-2011, 10:13 AM
Two words....caveat emptor

Doesn't work with medications, I'm afraid.

Hydrae
04-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Doesn't work with medications, I'm afraid.

I thought we were talking about suplements, not medications.

Pants
04-28-2011, 10:15 AM
That's an assumption on your behalf. You don't know him and he is doing as millions of other doctors. I live next door to a pharmacist who says they know more about the drugs than doctors.

Provide a link that the FDA knew about the risks. If they did then that goes to prove our point—they allow dangerous drugs that do more harm than vitamins. LOL?



What about all the shitty doctors who reviled Dr. Semmelweis for nearly a hundred years before they accepted his findings? They were all shitty too by your standard.

He's 100% right. Read #53.

Fish
04-28-2011, 10:19 AM
That's an assumption on your behalf. You don't know him and he is doing as millions of other doctors. I live next door to a pharmacist who says they know more about the drugs than doctors.

Provide a link that the FDA knew about the risks. If they did then that goes to prove our point—they allow dangerous drugs that do more harm than vitamins. LOL?



What about all the shitty doctors who reviled Dr. Semmelweis for nearly a hundred years before they accepted his findings? They were all shitty too by your standard.

You personally know someone who conveniently lives nearby who can speak for all members of his profession and insists they know more than other groups of professionals. And this is coming directly after accusing someone else of making an assumption...

This is very surprising behavior coming from you....

Pants
04-28-2011, 10:23 AM
You personally know someone who conveniently lives nearby who can speak for all members of his profession and insists they know more than other groups of professionals. And this is coming directly after accusing someone else of making an assumption...

This is very surprising behavior coming from you....

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if RPh's knew more about meds than the doctors, I just don't understand how that's even relevant. Are we blaming the FDA for the shitty doctors?

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 10:24 AM
I would absolutely be willing to be a lab rat in that case, no question. And I have no problems with anybody wanting the same in that situation. But I'm not about to make a decision for everyone in the nation and disband the FDA based on my own natural desires to continue living.

Regardless, that doesn't really matter much in relation to the issue in the OP. The issue in the OP is dealing with supplements and illegal claims about those supplements. They're not repressing some life saving drug that terminal patients are waiting on. They're punishing a supplement company for making illegal claims and making money on a product that doesn't do what it says. Can't you see the difference?

I don't think I'm on the shut down the FDA bandwagon, mostly because I haven't put a great deal of thought into what replacement it would require. I do know I have a problem with a lot of what the FDA does today, though.

I'm mostly appalled by the full on military style raid. According to the article the company had complied with the FDA's demands. The fact that a federal agency feels that it has license to raid a private business that is attempting to comply and steal all of their property is crazy.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 10:25 AM
That's actually false information about cholesterol....including that cholesterol is all bad for you. The conventional allopathic medical folks lag behind accepting such things but they eventually come around to admitting the trailblazers were right.

To be fair people are always blazing trails in all directions. The fact that one of them happens to be right isn't an indication that all people blazing trails are right.

Fish
04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
I don't think I'm on the shut down the FDA bandwagon, mostly because I haven't put a great deal of thought into what replacement it would require. I do know I have a problem with a lot of what the FDA does today, though.

I'm mostly appalled by the full on military style raid. According to the article the company had complied with the FDA's demands. The fact that a federal agency feels that it has license to raid a private business that is attempting to comply and steal all of their property is crazy.

Well I have a problem with much of what they do as well. But I still recognize the necessity of their existence and fear what things would be like without them. The article is so blatantly biased and exaggerated that it's absurd. That's what causes me to defend the intentions of the FDA here. When I see stupidity like this:

Until then, the world must know about this terrible injustice and crime against humanity. The FDA has clearly shown itself to be a terrorist organization that has no respect for the rule of law, or for common decency.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Well I have a problem with much of what they do as well. But I still recognize the necessity of their existence and fear what things would be like without them. The article is so blatantly biased and exaggerated that it's absurd. That's what causes me to defend the intentions of the FDA here. When I see stupidity like this:

Oh, there was plenty of stupid and bias in that article. But even if you distill all that out the facts are pretty absurd.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-28-2011, 10:50 AM
Well I have a problem with much of what they do as well. But I still recognize the necessity of their existence and fear what things would be like without them. The article is so blatantly biased and exaggerated that it's absurd. That's what causes me to defend the intentions of the FDA here. When I see stupidity like this:

I suppose you would feel differently if it was your business and without warning you had guns pointed at your head while everything you had was stolen. This sounds more Soviet than American as there was NO need for it to happen.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 11:21 AM
To be fair people are always blazing trails in all directions. The fact that one of them happens to be right isn't an indication that all people blazing trails are right.

True but there's a number of things on the natural side that were right and found to be so later.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 11:23 AM
I don't think I'm on the shut down the FDA bandwagon, mostly because I haven't put a great deal of thought into what replacement it would require. I do know I have a problem with a lot of what the FDA does today, though.

I'm mostly appalled by the full on military style raid. According to the article the company had complied with the FDA's demands. The fact that a federal agency feels that it has license to raid a private business that is attempting to comply and steal all of their property is crazy.

Don't forget that Big Pharma has bought some vitamin companies and have weakened the dosages making them less effective. Or that they have tried a number of times through the 90's and 00's to get vitamins regulated and even got some taken off the market. Big Pharma is behind those pushes. The Austrian school of economics has some great information on how it's often competitors of outfits that are behind such things, including the Microsoft case which was brought by Netscape and some other competitors.

Jaric
04-28-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm glad to hear cholesterol isn't bad for you though. That's useful information.

Not all cholesterol is created equal

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp

Cholesterol can't dissolve in the blood. It has to be transported to and from the cells by carriers called lipoproteins. Low-density lipoprotein, or LDL, is known as "bad" cholesterol. High-density lipoprotein, or HDL, is known as "good" cholesterol. These two types of lipids, along with triglycerides and Lp(a) cholesterol, make up your total cholesterol count, which can be determined through a blood test.

LDL (Bad) Cholesterol
When too much LDL (bad) cholesterol circulates in the blood, it can slowly build up in the inner walls of the arteries that feed the heart and brain. Together with other substances, it can form plaque, a thick, hard deposit that can narrow the arteries and make them less flexible. This condition is known as atherosclerosis. If a clot forms and blocks a narrowed artery, heart attack or stroke can result.

HDL (Good) Cholesterol
About one-fourth to one-third of blood cholesterol is carried by high-density lipoprotein (HDL). HDL cholesterol is known as "good" cholesterol, because high levels of HDL seem to protect against heart attack. Low levels of HDL (less than 40 mg/dL) also increase the risk of heart disease. Medical experts think that HDL tends to carry cholesterol away from the arteries and back to the liver, where it's passed from the body. Some experts believe that HDL removes excess cholesterol from arterial plaque, slowing its buildup.

Triglycerides
Triglyceride is a form of fat made in the body. Elevated triglycerides can be due to overweight/obesity, physical inactivity, cigarette smoking, excess alcohol consumption and a diet very high in carbohydrates (60 percent of total calories or more). People with high triglycerides often have a high total cholesterol level, including a high LDL (bad) level and a low HDL (good) level. Many people with heart disease and/or diabetes also have high triglyceride levels.

Lp(a) Cholesterol
Lp(a) is a genetic variation of LDL (bad) cholesterol. A high level of Lp(a) is a significant risk factor for the premature development of fatty deposits in arteries. Lp(a) isn't fully understood, but it may interact with substances found in artery walls and contribute to the buildup of fatty deposits.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 11:27 AM
True but there's a number of things on the natural side that were right and found to be so later.

There are more that were found to be stupid and ineffective, and some outright dangerous. None of which proves or disproves the validity of any single treatment.

Jaric
04-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Oh, and if you want a surefire way to lower your cholesterol, eat oats every day.

Brock
04-28-2011, 11:54 AM
Not all cholesterol is created equal

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp

:spock:

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 11:55 AM
There are more that were found to be stupid and ineffective, and some outright dangerous. None of which proves or disproves the validity of any single treatment.

Which ones were dangerous? Soy? Stupid and ineffective can be determined by just tying them which is an individual choice, because that doesn't mean they necessarily harm anyone.

I think the difference is one side treats causes and the allopathic medical side treats symptons mainly.

As far as general govt advices on food and diets their food pyramid is a culprit in my book. All these low-fat hi-carb diets are contributed to increased obesity and adult diabetes. On the other hand the surgeon general's info on an epidemic of parasites is good information. That's caused by a refined diet though too. Don't know if he said anything about that. Let's not forget the German Nazis had an anti-smoking and anti-cancer campaign too.

What is considered alternative practices in one country may be conventional medicine in another. Some European countries use more of it or low tech medicine too. 45% alternative in Denmark for instance. Really though there is only healthcare/medicine that works or that doesn't work.

BTW I meant to say I can see an alternative besides having an FDA. That is private certification like an Underwriter's Laboratory seal of approval. That's worked well and is very trusted. Then just use govt to bust fraud on them and others. The problem with the FDA is the revolving door between vested interests or who used to work for some vested interest.

Jaric
04-28-2011, 12:13 PM
:spock:

What? Not all cholesterol is bad for you. HdL are good. LdL's are bad.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 12:33 PM
Saturated fat is a misunderstood nutrient. Eat like a caveman.

Simplex3
04-28-2011, 12:52 PM
Which ones were dangerous? Soy? Stupid and ineffective can be determined by just tying them which is an individual choice, because that doesn't mean they necessarily harm anyone.

Try this on for size (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dangerous+homeopathic+remedies). Over the years people have ingested all kinds of poisons, even some that were known to be poisonous at the time, in the name of medicine.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 02:13 PM
Try this on for size (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dangerous+homeopathic+remedies). Over the years people have ingested all kinds of poisons, even some that were known to be poisonous at the time, in the name of medicine.

Well that's nothing new even to natural practioners. Many herbs are just drugs that get copied by pharmaceutical labs. Many drugs originally are derivatives of herbs like white willow bark for aspirin or act like some other drugs like valerian root. Many are safe and are just food. In fact it was herbs in the natural grass that killed off or prevented diseases in cow when they fed naturally. I mean that's like saying drugs are poisons which they are—just sometimes poison is a remedy to kill something worse. Like Chemo. So that's no different.

Chemo=poison
http://ohiosurgery.blogspot.com/2007/11/chemotherapy-poison.html

vailpass
04-28-2011, 02:43 PM
Thanks for that and the free gas, Obama.

To be fair obama is giving plenty of us gas alright, just not the kind we want.

Brock
04-28-2011, 02:51 PM
What? Not all cholesterol is bad for you. HdL are good. LdL's are bad.

No shit? Which cholesterol is it you think I was speaking of, considering we were discussing the benefits/risks of cholesterol medication?

Inspector
04-28-2011, 02:55 PM
I guess it's good that someone is out there protecting me from what I might put into my own body. I should never be trusted to make those decisions for myself.

I guess if there was country somewhere that you had personal freedom to choose for yourself what you did to yourself (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else), I'd be tempted to see what it was like.

I know a lot of folks wouldn't approve of that type of thinking. I guess the good news there is that I am in no way, under any circumstances, looking for anyone's approval for the decisions I make about my own body. But thanks anyway.

I don't know but it might be different if people had some way of researching for themselves about whatever it is they want to consume and make their own decisions. Nah, that'd be bad. Better to leave that to others.

Pants
04-28-2011, 03:01 PM
I guess it's good that someone is out there protecting me from what I might put into my own body. I should never be trusted to make those decisions for myself.

I guess if there was country somewhere that you had personal freedom to choose for yourself what you did to yourself (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else), I'd be tempted to see what it was like.

I know a lot of folks wouldn't approve of that type of thinking. I guess the good news there is that I am in no way, under any circumstances, looking for anyone's approval for the decisions I make about my own body. But thanks anyway.

I don't know but it might be different if people had some way of researching for themselves about whatever it is they want to consume and make their own decisions. Nah, that'd be bad. Better to leave that to others.

You're not thinking this through. If the makers of a product say that it will cure your ulcer, how are you going to know whether it's true or not unless someone does some studies? How are you going to know that it will not actually make your ulcer so bad that you will die of hemorrhage?

Jaric
04-28-2011, 03:15 PM
No shit? Which cholesterol is it you think I was speaking of, considering we were discussing the benefits/risks of cholesterol medication?

Easy killer, a lot of people don't know there is such a thing as good cholesterol. No need to get upset.

Fish
04-28-2011, 03:20 PM
I guess it's good that someone is out there protecting me from what I might put into my own body. I should never be trusted to make those decisions for myself.

I guess if there was country somewhere that you had personal freedom to choose for yourself what you did to yourself (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else), I'd be tempted to see what it was like.

I know a lot of folks wouldn't approve of that type of thinking. I guess the good news there is that I am in no way, under any circumstances, looking for anyone's approval for the decisions I make about my own body. But thanks anyway.

I don't know but it might be different if people had some way of researching for themselves about whatever it is they want to consume and make their own decisions. Nah, that'd be bad. Better to leave that to others.

:facepalm:

No government agency is telling you what you can or can't put into your body. Good grief. Nobody is making any decisions for you or telling you what you can do to your own body. If you want to ingest some elixir cocktail given to you by the voodoo woman down the street, you're most welcome to, and the FDA isn't going to get up in your business. If you want to eat lead paint chips, the FDA doesn't really care.

But.... if you want to try and sell some new pills that you created in your basement, and you claim that your new pills will cure erectile dysfunction when they really are just pencil shavings and dandelion juice. THAT'S when the FDA will step in and get up in your shit. It's the SALE of something that's not approved or evaluated by the FDA, that has false claims that it will cure or treat a medical condition. That is what is happening here. They're not trying to control you, they're trying to control the sale of unregulated stuff that misleads or flat out lies to consumers.

vailpass
04-28-2011, 03:24 PM
You're not thinking this through. If the makers of a product say that it will cure your ulcer, how are you going to know whether it's true or not unless someone does some studies? How are you going to know that it will not actually make your ulcer so bad that you will die of hemorrhage?

Yes. Then the same people who don't want FDA will bitch because the government allowed these people to sell dangerous products.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 04:19 PM
You're not thinking this through. If the makers of a product say that it will cure your ulcer, how are you going to know whether it's true or not unless someone does some studies? How are you going to know that it will not actually make your ulcer so bad that you will die of hemorrhage?

So a swat team is needed to handle such people? Seems like overkill. They must love all their weapons and toys while they display supreme arrogance by being jack booted thugs.

Pants
04-28-2011, 04:27 PM
So a swat team is needed to handle such people? Seems like overkill. They must love all their weapons and toys while they display supreme arrogance by being jack booted thugs.
Meanwhile people die from the stuff they make legal because their standards are low.

No, the SWAT team is not needed but the FDA is. That article is so amateurish, I honestly don't know how much of it I can believe.

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 04:29 PM
No, the SWAT team is not needed but the FDA is. That article is so amateurish, I honestly don't know how much of it I can believe.

Good for you.

I didn't read the article. Skimming it told me all I needed to know when a swat team was used.

vailpass
04-28-2011, 04:46 PM
Twat steam? What?

teedubya
04-28-2011, 05:17 PM
Not really. The pharmaceutical industry operates under a very strict set of standards. Everything they sell has to pass FDA evaluation. They can't slap a label on the side of the bottle claiming that the pills inside do something that they don't. And they have to be careful in identifying exactly what the product does do. That's why you see strange shit like a crazy list of side effects like anal leakage on pharmaceuticals. Because they're required by law to do so.

With the "supplement" industry, that's not the case. They have no FDA evaluation for their products. And as so, they can't sell a vitamin claiming it helps with Alzheimers.

The "supplement" industry has been skirting the laws for quite some time scamming people with products that do absolutely nothing for people's afflictions. I'm glad to see some of these bastards get what they deserve.

*cough* bullshit.

There are many, many ethnobotanical remedies that are superior to the pharmaceutical remedies... but you can't patent a plant.

Thus, they try to discredit and destroy that plant/remedy.

Pants
04-28-2011, 05:25 PM
*cough* bullshit.

There are many, many ethnobotanical remedies that are superior to the pharmaceutical remedies... but you can't patent a plant.

Thus, they try to discredit and destroy that plant/remedy.

Who is they?

BucEyedPea
04-28-2011, 05:52 PM
Who is they?

Big Pharma, who else would they be?

Jaric
04-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Big Pharma, who else would they be?

Them?

durtyrute
04-29-2011, 11:45 AM
Yep, that's what they do.