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4th and Long
05-02-2011, 03:09 PM
But here's another report claiming otherwise:
Jesus ...

Here's another report for you.

http://www.myptsmail.com/hotdog256/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/E868A_dewey_defeats_truman.jpg

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:13 PM
No kidding what a pussy.

And for BEP

That just tells me there's contrary facts being reported.

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Jesus ...

Here's another report for you.

http://www.myptsmail.com/hotdog256/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/E868A_dewey_defeats_truman.jpg

That's not evidence.

Contrary facts simply means that 1) one or the other is true 2) both are false or 3) there's more information.

patteeu
05-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Hell freezes over.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/rush-limbaugh-we-need-to-open-the-program-today-by-congratulating-president-obama/

“President Obama has continued the Bush policies of keeping a military presence in the Middle East. He did not scrub the mission to get Bin Laden. In fact, it may be that President Obama single-handedly came up with the technique in order to pull this off. You see, the military wanted to go in there and bomb as they always do. They wanted to drop missiles and drop bombs and a number of totally destructive techniques here. But President Obama, perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces. No one else thought of that. President Obama. Not a single intelligence adviser, not a single national security adviser, not a single military adviser came up with the idea of using SEAL Team 6 or any Special Forces.”

BTW, what ever happened to all those Bush critics who whined incessantly about the fact that Bush or Rumsfeld occasionally rejected the advice of some of their military advisors? In fact, wasn't Obama one of those critics?

Now it seems to have become a badge of courage to do so. Go figure.

4th and Long
05-02-2011, 03:17 PM
That's not evidence.

Contrary facts simply means that 1) one or the other is true 2) both are false or 3) there's more information.
So what you're saying is, water is wet.

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:19 PM
No kidding what a pussy.

And for BEP

That just means not everyone in the Pakistani govt knew especially pilots. It does not mean no one knew or partially knew. If they didn't then it's the press that's misreporting in some quarters depending on who their sources are.

warrior
05-02-2011, 03:22 PM
I read that. Fitting that his last move was to hide behind a chick.

He lived his life a coward fitting he should die a coward.

dirk digler
05-02-2011, 03:27 PM
BTW, what ever happened to all those Bush critics who whined incessantly about the fact that Bush or Rumsfeld occasionally rejected the advice of some of their military advisors? In fact, wasn't Obama one of those critics?

Now it seems to have become a badge of courage to do so. Go figure.

I don't remember people criticizing him for that but then again my memory is pretty hazy

dirk digler
05-02-2011, 03:28 PM
That just means not everyone in the Pakistani govt knew especially pilots. It does not mean no one knew or partially knew. If they didn't then it's the press that's misreporting in some quarters depending on who their sources are.

Use your brain BEP. If Pakistan knew about this they would have cleared the air space and made sure Bin Laden was long gone

go bowe
05-02-2011, 03:29 PM
I don't remember people criticizing him for that but then again my memory is pretty hazy
hazy?

what kind of pundit are you?

just make it up as you go, that's always the best policy...

go bowe
05-02-2011, 03:33 PM
Use your brain BEP. If Pakistan knew about this they would have cleared the air space and made sure Bin Laden was long gonedon't be so hard on honey...

she's using her brain, it just doesn't work the same way as other people's brains...

she has her own universe of reality and logic that is unassailable...

crazy in a sort of endearing way, she's just the breath of fresh air that this place needs...

Donger
05-02-2011, 03:35 PM
Yeah, the Taliban isn't the enemy...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/taliban-avenge-bin-laden-death

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 03:38 PM
Yeah, the Taliban isn't the enemy...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/taliban-avenge-bin-laden-death

but...but...BEP said that you and I were wrong to think that. ;)

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:39 PM
Use your brain BEP. If Pakistan knew about this they would have cleared the air space and made sure Bin Laden was long gone

That's conjecture dirk. This has nothing to do with using one's brain, it's poor reporting, by some news sources. Two sets of facts that contradict each other. I was saying, and I linked earlier what abc reported and another source. One saying done "in conjunction with Pakistan" and another saying they used a Pakistani AF base "suggesting" some knowledge by Pakistani officials. Unless whoever got that permission witheld the true nature of the mission. So some here read different sources and shoot the messenger instead.

Amnorix
05-02-2011, 03:40 PM
BTW, what ever happened to all those Bush critics who whined incessantly about the fact that Bush or Rumsfeld occasionally rejected the advice of some of their military advisors? In fact, wasn't Obama one of those critics?

Now it seems to have become a badge of courage to do so. Go figure.

If you reject your military advisers advise regarding military matters, then (1) you're probably an idiot, and (2) you damn well better be right.

If you reject your military advisers advice regarding mixed political/military matters, then you get a fair bit more latitude in my mind because sometimes political considerations need to override military considerations, and if it's a bad result, then that gets taken into account.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 03:40 PM
http://i1.tribune.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Osama-Protest-PPI-640x480.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/5/2/1304335346396/Pro-Taliban-rally-In-Paki-007.jpg

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Yeah, the Taliban isn't the enemy...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/taliban-avenge-bin-laden-death

If they do that, especially here, then they will be. Before that not so much. They just wanted us out of Afghanistan and were willing to make concessions for it at that point in time. In the meantime. Some have already predicted that this would make binLaden a martyr. That's to be expected.

Donger
05-02-2011, 03:44 PM
If they do that, especially here, then they will be. Before that not so much. They just wanted us out of Afghanistan and were willing to make concessions for it at that point in time. In the meantime. Some have already predicted that this would make binLaden a martyr. That's to be expected.

What are you talking about? You don't know that Taliban forces have killed out troops?

They ARE one of the enemy. They have been for some time.

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:47 PM
What are you talking about? You don't know that Taliban forces have killed out troops?
Oh I didn't say that. They want us out of their country which we've occupied and are nation building. That's legitimate. We'd do the same thing if it happened here. I was talking about before we did that and that they've offered to negotiate if we'd just get out. I know of no involvement by them in targeting America before then.

They ARE one of the enemy. They have been for some time.

Nope.

fbal4lif32
05-02-2011, 03:50 PM
It's not everyday you meet a non-Taliban Taliban-sympathizer.

Donger
05-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Oh I didn't say that. They want us out of their country which we've occupied and are nation building. That's legitimate. I was talking about before we did that and that they've offered to negotiate if we'd just get out. I know of no involvement by them in targetting America before then.



Nope.

:spock:

You really do live in a dream land, don't you? "Before that" is irrelevant in determining who is and who is not an enemy. Even if it were, the Taliban gave shelter to a group who caused 9/11.

If you can add all that up and still think they aren't an enemy, you are fucking insane.

kstater
05-02-2011, 03:53 PM
:spock:

You really do live in a dream land, don't you?

Why are you acting so surprised?

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 03:55 PM
I agree. But folks on the right, like donger and ForeverChiefs 58, mistakenly believe the Taliban is a threat to a superpower by sending terrorists over here. So we need to stay forever. Forever Afghanistan!! LMAO

:spock::spock:


Taliban commander vows to avenge Bin Laden's death
Taliban commander known as Qudos says jihadis are planning to mount attacks in response to death of Osama bin Laden


A Taliban commander in Afghanistan has promised that his fighters would mount attacks to avenge the killing by US forces of Osama bin Laden.

The commander, who gave his name as Qudos and operates in the northern province of Baghlan, said: "The killing of Osama bin Laden will bring no change to jihad. Osama is the leader of al-Qaida and he is a powerful man in jihad. Losing him will be very painful for the mujahideen, but the shahadat [martyrdom] of Osama, will never stop the jihad. We will continue our fight until we liberate our lands from the Kafirs."

He said his fighters planned to launch an operation called Bader "to avenge the killing of Osama" and claimed many other similar operations would be launched.

A Taliban fighter — who had what seemed like a British accent but said he was Afghan — told the Guardian there was still a lot of suspicion among the Taliban about whether the news of Bin Laden's death was true. But he added: "Even if he is dead, I don't think it will make any difference to our fight. He is just one of thousands of fighters, and from a different organisation."

A Yemeni jihadi who goes by the name of Omar claimed the death of Bin Laden would not stop al-Qaida insurgents mounting attacks. "I am not fighting for Bin Laden to stop fighting if he is killed, we are not people who worship figures, he – may God have mercy on him – is a brave man who created and led the jihad but it will not stop here and now look what is happening with all the dictators, they are falling because we have been fighting them for so long and that's thanks to the ways of the Sheikh the shahid [the Sheikh the martyr]. Many brothers will I am sure be planning revenge attacks at the moment."

A war inspired by 'the Sheikh'
From the shrub-covered, bullet-riddled frontlines of Mogadishu, to the concrete slums in the outskirts of Amman and Damascus, from a camp in a pine forest in eastern Afghanistan to the sprawling deserts of southern Yemen, soft-spoken zealots with Kalashnikovs have told me about their aspirations to fight, kill and hopefully die in the war against the infidels and their agents. A holy war inspired by, led by and catalysed by, the Sheikh.


The Sheik, Osama bin Laden, created the model for that holy war: he articulated its objectives through his acts of violence, and his life became a manual of the jihadi fighter in the collective imagination of those young men - the learned ascetic and ferocious fighter.


His pictures and sermons, radio massages and TV appearances lived, flourished and sprung to life in these alleyways and faraway mountains, nourished and nurtured by poverty, perceived injustice and decades of oppressive rule.


Yet none of those men have ever met the Sheikh, none of them had any direct contact with him; only one had seen him twice when he was a teenager. They didn't receive their orders from the Sheikh, they didn't communicate with him, and they did not consult him before they went out to fight.


Bin Laden, the creator of modern-day terrorism and founder of al-Qaida, had become more of a spiritual father than field commander.



The dream of all those so-called jihadis and their local establishments was to be anointed by the father figure as a forbearer of his ideology, to be recognised as a "franchise" of the mother organisation to gain the respect and support, and a lot of money from wealthy Arabs, that would allow them to fight their own local wars and contribute to the jihad.


Many local franchises have sprung up: Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Somalia and others. Bombs are manufactured locally, knowledge is shared on internet forums, fighters don't need to head all the way to Pakistan or Afghanistan to get training; they can do that in their own home towns or villages in Britain, the Caucasus, Mogadishu, Iraq, Mali and Yemen. The effect is that al-Qaida has succeeded in separating ideology from leadership.


For many years, the Sheikh had been isolated, his organisation disrupted not only by US kill teams and lethal drone attacks but also by general Muslim apathy and outright hostility to the organisation. For most of the victims are Muslim: not only Shia Muslims and Sunni moderates and seculars, but also bystanders who have committed the deadly sin of buying vegetables while one of those holy warriors decides to fight his battle and start his ascendance to the hereafter.



The killing of Bin Laden will give a new impetus to the jihadi movement that has suffered in the past few months as the aspirations of these young men have been fulfilled, not by the jihad, but by the street demonstrations led by unarmed men and women secularists and religious calling for social justice.


Local jihadi wars will continue, al-Qaida in Yemen will continue to attempt to bomb targets in the west, and the Taliban will not stop fighting in Afghanistan.

go bowe
05-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Why are you acting so surprised?
LMAO LMAO LMAO

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:56 PM
That's now. Not earlier. I've already argued about the Taliban many times before. I am not spending all evening on doing it again. That's my position. You agree to disagree because you're not going to change my mind and relying on ad hominem shows you can't articulate your own argument.

go bowe
05-02-2011, 03:58 PM
That's now. Not earlier. I've already argued about the Taliban many times before. I am not spending all evening on doing it again. That's my position. You agree to disagree because you're not going to change my mind and relying on ad hominem shows you can't articulate your own argument.
you can say that again, sister...

Radar Chief
05-02-2011, 04:00 PM
That's now. Not earlier. I've already argued about the Taliban many times before. I am not spending all evening on doing it again. That's my position. You agree to disagree because you're not going to change my mind and relying on ad hominem shows you can't articulate your own argument.

Its not ad hominem when you actually are crazy.

mikey23545
05-02-2011, 04:00 PM
Yeah! The collapse of the housing market and the financial system (Bear, Lehman, AIG, etc.),

see Frank, Barney D-Mass; Carter, Jimmy D; Community Reinvestment Act, 1977

the start of the recession,

See above note

and the resulting spike in unemployment all happened under Obama. F that guy. ;)

Unemployment rate for 2008: 5.8%

Unemployment rate for 2010 : 9.6%

;)

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 04:01 PM
If they do that, especially here, then they will be. Before that not so much. They just wanted us out of Afghanistan and were willing to make concessions for it at that point in time. In the meantime. Some have already predicted that this would make binLaden a martyr. That's to be expected.

yeah we should listen to the demands of people that use children as suicide bombers. :spock:

What about when their demands are we set free all their friends we have in prisons?

How about we don't negotiate with terrorists or the insane?

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 04:02 PM
Nope

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 04:05 PM
That's now. Not earlier. I've already argued about the Taliban many times before. I am not spending all evening on doing it again. That's my position. You agree to disagree because you're not going to change my mind and relying on ad hominem shows you can't articulate your own argument.

Do you think Hamas or Hezbollah is our enemy?

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Nope

Yup!

Amnorix
05-02-2011, 04:06 PM
That's now. Not earlier. I've already argued about the Taliban many times before. I am not spending all evening on doing it again. That's my position. You agree to disagree because you're not going to change my mind and relying on ad hominem shows you can't articulate your own argument.

You dont' seem to get that if the Taliban is the political unit running a government and its political philosophies are aligned with a Al Queda such that it (1) agreed with them by and large and (2) let them do whatever they wanted in Afghanistan, by and large, and (3) let them plot, coordinate and train for attacks on the USA, they ARE IN FACT our enemy.

But in the lala land in which you live, I'm sure that's not true, but whatever.

Donger
05-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Why are you acting so surprised?

I was hoping it was just an affectation.

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Do you think Hamas or Hezbollah is our enemy?

I already told you. Now, start a new thread instead of hijacking this one.

go bowe
05-02-2011, 04:25 PM
You dont' seem to get that if the Taliban is the political unit running a government and its political philosophies are aligned with a Al Queda such that it (1) agreed with them by and large and (2) let them do whatever they wanted in Afghanistan, by and large, and (3) let them plot, coordinate and train for attacks on the USA, they ARE IN FACT our enemy.

But in the lala land in which you live, I'm sure that's not true, but whatever.aha! an ad hominem ...

therefore, your entire argument lacks merit...

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 04:26 PM
That's conjecture dirk. This has nothing to do with using one's brain, it's poor reporting, by some news sources. Two sets of facts that contradict each other. I was saying, and I linked earlier what abc reported and another source. One saying done "in conjunction with Pakistan" and another saying they used a Pakistani AF base "suggesting" some knowledge by Pakistani officials. Unless whoever got that permission witheld the true nature of the mission. So some here read different sources and shoot the messenger instead.

You think he lived in a mansion for over 5 years 1,000 feet away from thousands of pakistani soldiers without any of them knowing? :spock:

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 04:40 PM
You think he lived in a mansion for over 5 years 1,000 feet away from thousands of pakistani soldiers without any of them knowing? :spock:
That doesn't sound like a real question but more like an accusation.
My answer—not necessarily. That did go through my mind as a possibility.
Then again, sometimes hiding in such a close spot makes it too unbelievable to be even suspected.

There's also no reason not to suspect the some in the US could not have known either. It's speculative, but if true, taking him out now could be a political move. Never know. The only thing I know is the state ( any of them) has a habit of lying. ( There's even French fraud being suspected on Libya.)

go bowe
05-02-2011, 04:44 PM
Its not ad hominem when you actually are crazy.LMAO LMAO LMAO

KC Dan
05-02-2011, 04:47 PM
Great sit-room pic watching the raid from the BBC

Frankie
05-02-2011, 04:50 PM
I wonder if direcshun, frankie and others would be able to actually condemn hamas as a terrorist organization now instead of just excusing their behavior when it is against jews?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aPU8oYrNAzA/SxYC_yVAjoI/AAAAAAAAAe8/FlylkHfKYF0/s400/not_this_shit_again.jpg

Ugly Duck
05-02-2011, 04:53 PM
The pentagon, defense dept. and whitehouse have all said pakistan did NOT know about it.
Have you not been paying attention to how our leaders have been saying that pakistan has been colluding with al qaeda and other militants for many, many years? He was living for over 5 years 1000 feet from the pakistani military training academy, his neighbors were retired military. So, what do you think? :spock:

Dang - if the Republicans were still in charge none of this celebration would be happening. Bush, McCain & all of them insisted they would ask permission from Pakistan before acting on actionable intelligence. Bin Laden wudda been long gone if the Republicans had warned the Pakastanis that we were coming. Let us all give thanks that a decisive Commander in Chief like Obama is in charge instead of yet another "ask permission first" Republican weenie.

Frankie
05-02-2011, 04:53 PM
I don't care for conspiracy BS. But the releasing of the long form birth certificate, proving beyond on a shadow of a doubt Obama is American. Then the next day or so bringing down OBL, is quite the happy coincidence.

http://i55.tinypic.com/10s6k4g.jpg

Frankie
05-02-2011, 04:55 PM
You aren't bipolar, you are just stupid!

You never learn. Do you?! :shake:

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 04:56 PM
That doesn't sound like a real question but more like an accusation.
My answer—not necessarily. That did go through my mind as a possibility.
Then again, sometimes hiding in such a close spot makes it too unbelievable to be even suspected.

There's also no reason not to suspect the some in the US could not have known either. It's speculative, but if true, taking him out now could be a political move. Never know. The only thing I know is the state ( any of them) has a habit of lying. ( There's even French fraud being suspected on Libya.)


John Brennan, Obama's adviser on homeland security and counterterrorism
said Monday it is "inconceivable" that bin Laden did not have some kind of support system in Pakistan that allowed him to live in hiding there.


In the operation, U.S. forces recovered "quite a bit of material," a senior U.S. intelligence official said. "There's a robust collection of materials we need to sift through, and we hope to find valuable intelligence that will lead us to other players in al-Qaida." A task force has been set up "because of the sheer volume of material collected," the official said. "That material is currently being exploited and analyzed."

The successful operation sends a message to the Taliban in Afghanistan, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Monday.

"You cannot wait us out. You cannot defeat us. But you can make the choice to abandon al-Qaida" and participate in a peaceful political process, Clinton said.

"There is no better rebuke to al-Qaida and its heinous ideology," she said. "The fight continues and we will never waver."

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 04:58 PM
Hitlary is a militarist. I could care less what Ms. Pro War in Libya thinks.

And having a support system in Pakistan can mean many things. They have militants in that country too.

ClevelandBronco
05-02-2011, 04:59 PM
Dang - if the Republicans were still in charge none of this celebration would be happening.

This celebration?

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KrM0dAFsZ8k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh, forgive me. You mean the classy one.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FwJqhPL28Zw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You know what? Fuck us.

Frankie
05-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Let me help your overwhelmed brain

ROFL

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 05:12 PM
Frankie, really, I do like you. You are a nice guy, and I love your takes on the chiefs and other issues. I also enjoy hearing about some of your culture and experiences. You are a valued member of this board and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I would just love to hear you condemn hamas as a terrible terrorist organization. It would seem you, direcshun and some others always end up falling short in doing so. Most americans don't see a difference between hamas, hezbollah, the taliban or al qaeda. I cannot like someone who likes a terrorist organization and I just want to make sure you are not like that.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Wierd that the announcement in the United States of bin Laden's death came on the same date -- May 1 -- that Adolf Hitler's death was announced in 1945.

acesn8s
05-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Wierd that the announcement in the United States of bin Laden's death came on the same date -- May 1 -- that Adolf Hitler's death was announced in 1945.It is also odd that Obama broke into Celebrity Apprentice to announce the OP. Coincidence? :hmmm:

ChiefsCountry
05-02-2011, 05:31 PM
It is also odd that Obama broke into Celebrity Apprentice to announce the OP. Coincidence? :hmmm:

Maybe but the 10pm Sunday local news slot is the highest rated television show of the week.

orange
05-02-2011, 05:48 PM
It is also odd that Obama broke into Celebrity Apprentice to announce the OP. Coincidence? :hmmm:

Probably, since it was supposed to go off Saturday but was delayed by weather.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 05:50 PM
If Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader, but a mass murderer of Muslims, then why do any burial according to muslim tradition?

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 05:50 PM
If Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader, but a mass murderer of Muslims, then why do any burial according to muslim tradition?

Because we're better than him.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 06:13 PM
Because we're better than him.

Yeah, but it is just common sense. Come on, don't you think most jews would be upset if hitler was given a traditional jewish burial.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 06:16 PM
Yeah, but it is just common sense.

The goal was to kill him. Not drag him through the streets Iliad-style.

Let's give Al Qaeda the monopoly on showboating murder.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 06:31 PM
The goal was to kill him. Not drag him through the streets Iliad-style.

Let's give Al Qaeda the monopoly on showboating murder.

Oh I agree we shouldn't have done the traditional drag through the streets naked, set body on fire and hang from a bridge. I just don't think anyone should have tried to give him any respectful burial according to any religion since he was one of the most evil people of our time. I sure wouldn't have washed his dirty body, wrap it and hurry cause his religion says so. His religion was Satan and Hell which most would agree is where he went.

|Zach|
05-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Oh I agree we shouldn't have done the traditional drag through the streets naked, set body on fire and hang from a bridge. I just don't think anyone should have tried to give him any respectful burial according to any religion since he was one of the most evil people of our time. I sure wouldn't have washed his dirty body, wrap it and hurry cause his religion says so. His religion was Satan and Hell which most would agree is where he went.

Not sure why some are so obsessed with hiding the differences between us and them instead of making them obvious to the world.

blaise
05-02-2011, 07:02 PM
Oh I agree we shouldn't have done the traditional drag through the streets naked, set body on fire and hang from a bridge. I just don't think anyone should have tried to give him any respectful burial according to any religion since he was one of the most evil people of our time. I sure wouldn't have washed his dirty body, wrap it and hurry cause his religion says so. His religion was Satan and Hell which most would agree is where he went.

I hated the guy and I'm glad he's dead, but once a person is dead I don't see the point in denying them a decent burial of some sort, if possible. It's just the way you do things.

Radar Chief
05-02-2011, 07:08 PM
I hated the guy and I'm glad he's dead, but once a person is dead I don't see the point in denying them a decent burial of some sort, if possible. It's just the way you do things.

To hell with them fellas. Buzzards gotta eat, same as the worms. /Josey Wales

SNR
05-02-2011, 07:32 PM
Possibly repost. I haven't really checked out this thread or forum much today. Most people probably already came to this conclusion themselves, but for those who haven't, it's something to think about just a bit.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/02/osama-won
Osama Won
Radley Balko | May 2, 2011

In The Looming Tower, the Pulitzer-winning history of al-Qaeda and the road to 9/11, author Lawrence Wright lays out how Osama bin Laden’s motivation for the attacks that he planned in the 1990s, and then the September 11 attacks, was to draw the U.S. and the West into a prolonged war—an actual war in Afghanistan, and a broader global war with Islam.

Osama got both. And we gave him a prolonged war in Iraq to boot. By the end of Obama’s first term, we’ll probably top 6,000 dead U.S. troops in those two wars, along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans. The cost for both wars is also now well over $1 trillion.

We have also fundamentally altered who we are. A partial, off-the-top-of-my-head list of how we’ve changed since September 11 . . .

-We’ve sent terrorist suspects to “black sites” to be detained without trial and tortured.

-We’ve turned terrorist suspects over to other regimes, knowing that they’d be tortured.

-In those cases when our government later learned it got the wrong guy, federal officials not only refused to apologize or compensate him, they went to court to argue he should be barred from using our courts to seek justice, and that the details of his abduction, torture, and detainment should be kept secret.

-We’ve abducted and imprisoned dozens, perhaps hundreds of men in Guantanamo who turned out to have been innocent. Again, the government felt no obligation to do right by them.

-The government launched a multimillion dollar ad campaign implying that people who smoke marijuana are implicit in the murder of nearly 3,000 of their fellow citizens.

-The government illegally spied and eavesdropped on thousands of American citizens.

-Presidents from both of the two major political parties have claimed the power to detain suspected terrorists and hold them indefinitely without trial, based solely on the president’s designation of them as an “enemy combatant,” essentially making the president prosecutor, judge, and jury. (I’d also argue that the treatment of someone like Bradley Manning wouldn’t have been tolerated before September 11.)

-The current president has also claimed the power to execute U.S. citizens, off the battlefield, without a trial, and to prevent anyone from knowing about it after the fact.

-The Congress approved, the president signed, and the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a broadly written law making it a crime to advocate for any organization the government deems sympathetic to terrorism. This includes challenging the “terrorist” designation in the first place.

-Flying in America now means enduring a humiliating and hassling ritual that does little if anything to actually make flying any safer. Every time the government fails to catch an attempt at terrorism, it punishes the public for its failure by adding to the ritual.

-American Muslims, a heartening story of success and assimilation, are now harassed and denigrated for merely trying to build houses of worship.
Without a warrant, the government can search and seize indefinitely the laptops and other personal electronic devices of anyone entering the country.
The Department of Homeland Security now gives terrorism-fighting grants for local police departments across the country to purchase military equipment, such as armored personnel carriers, which is then used against U.S. citizens, mostly to serve drug warrants.

I’m relieved that bin Laden is dead. And the Navy SEALs who carried out the harrowing raid that ended his life have my respect and admiration. And for all the massive waste and abuse our government has perpetrated in the name of fighting terrorism over the last decade, there’s something satisfying in knowing that he was killed in a limited, targeted operation based on specific intelligence.

But because of the actions of one guy, we allowed all the bullet points above to happen. That we managed to kill him a decade after the September 11 attacks is symbolically important, but hardly seems worth the celebrations we saw across the country last night. There was something unsettling about watching giddy crowds bounce around beach balls and climb telephone polls last night, as if they were in the lawn seats at a rock festival. Solemn and somber appreciation that an evil man is gone seemed like the more appropriate reaction.

Yes, bin Laden the man is dead. But he achieved all he set out to achieve, and a hell of a lot more. He forever changed who we are as a country, and for the worse. Mostly because we let him. That isn’t something a special ops team can fix.

Frankie
05-02-2011, 07:37 PM
Frankie, really, I do like you. You are a nice guy, and I love your takes on the chiefs and other issues. I also enjoy hearing about some of your culture and experiences. You are a valued member of this board and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I would just love to hear you condemn hamas as a terrible terrorist organization. It would seem you, direcshun and some others always end up falling short in doing so. Most americans don't see a difference between hamas, hezbollah, the taliban or al qaeda. I cannot like someone who likes a terrorist organization and I just want to make sure you are not like that.

OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!

Norman Einstein
05-02-2011, 07:46 PM
OK, here:

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!:BS:

SNR
05-02-2011, 08:01 PM
OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!You better be sincere. I sent some people of mine to Hawaii to do some hardcore investigations. They've kept me updated on their progress, and believe me: Chiefsplanet is going to be FLOORED when they hear all about the final results.

|Zach|
05-02-2011, 08:02 PM
You better be sincere. I sent some people of mine to Hawaii to do some hardcore investigations. They've kept me updated on their progress, and believe me: Chiefsplanet is going to be FLOORED when they hear all about the final results.

LMAO

go bowe
05-02-2011, 08:16 PM
OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!aha, you can't bring yourself to unequivocally condemn hamas, can you?

terrorist...

osama lover...

oh, wait...

Amnorix
05-02-2011, 08:16 PM
:BS:


You got an answer for me yet, "Einstein"?

Actually, what's really amusing here is that you're fundamentally wrong on two levels. Not just in THIS case, as my prior post explains, but generally.

Answer this ONE simple question -- are the Joint Chiefs of Staff within the standard military chain of command?

Cave Johnson
05-02-2011, 08:16 PM
see Frank, Barney D-Mass; Carter, Jimmy D; Community Reinvestment Act, 1977

See above note

Unemployment rate for 2008: 5.8%

Unemployment rate for 2010 : 9.6%

;)

I'd respond substantively, but that wink suggests you don't even believe your own bullshit.

Unlike Patteau. That dude is one dyed in the wool kool-aid drinker.

go bowe
05-02-2011, 08:19 PM
I'd respond substantively, but that wink suggests you don't even believe your own bullshit.

Unlike Patteau. That dude is one dyed in the wool kool-aid drinker.
oh no, that wink means he loves you...

Frankie
05-02-2011, 08:24 PM
You better be sincere. I sent some people of mine to Hawaii to do some hardcore investigations. They've kept me updated on their progress, and believe me: Chiefsplanet is going to be FLOORED when they hear all about the final results.

:LOL:

OK dude, I'll fess up sometime. Take care and don't walk in the wind.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 08:52 PM
Possibly repost. I haven't really checked out this thread or forum much today. Most people probably already came to this conclusion themselves, but for those who haven't, it's something to think about just a bit.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/02/osama-won
Osama Won
Radley Balko | May 2, 2011

In The Looming Tower, the Pulitzer-winning history of al-Qaeda and the road to 9/11, author Lawrence Wright lays out how Osama bin Laden’s motivation for the attacks that he planned in the 1990s, and then the September 11 attacks, was to draw the U.S. and the West into a prolonged war—an actual war in Afghanistan, and a broader global war with Islam.

Osama got both. And we gave him a prolonged war in Iraq to boot. By the end of Obama’s first term, we’ll probably top 6,000 dead U.S. troops in those two wars, along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans. The cost for both wars is also now well over $1 trillion.

We have also fundamentally altered who we are. A partial, off-the-top-of-my-head list of how we’ve changed since September 11 . . .

-We’ve sent terrorist suspects to “black sites” to be detained without trial and tortured.

-We’ve turned terrorist suspects over to other regimes, knowing that they’d be tortured.

-In those cases when our government later learned it got the wrong guy, federal officials not only refused to apologize or compensate him, they went to court to argue he should be barred from using our courts to seek justice, and that the details of his abduction, torture, and detainment should be kept secret.

-We’ve abducted and imprisoned dozens, perhaps hundreds of men in Guantanamo who turned out to have been innocent. Again, the government felt no obligation to do right by them.

-The government launched a multimillion dollar ad campaign implying that people who smoke marijuana are implicit in the murder of nearly 3,000 of their fellow citizens.

-The government illegally spied and eavesdropped on thousands of American citizens.

-Presidents from both of the two major political parties have claimed the power to detain suspected terrorists and hold them indefinitely without trial, based solely on the president’s designation of them as an “enemy combatant,” essentially making the president prosecutor, judge, and jury. (I’d also argue that the treatment of someone like Bradley Manning wouldn’t have been tolerated before September 11.)

-The current president has also claimed the power to execute U.S. citizens, off the battlefield, without a trial, and to prevent anyone from knowing about it after the fact.

-The Congress approved, the president signed, and the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a broadly written law making it a crime to advocate for any organization the government deems sympathetic to terrorism. This includes challenging the “terrorist” designation in the first place.

-Flying in America now means enduring a humiliating and hassling ritual that does little if anything to actually make flying any safer. Every time the government fails to catch an attempt at terrorism, it punishes the public for its failure by adding to the ritual.

-American Muslims, a heartening story of success and assimilation, are now harassed and denigrated for merely trying to build houses of worship.
Without a warrant, the government can search and seize indefinitely the laptops and other personal electronic devices of anyone entering the country.
The Department of Homeland Security now gives terrorism-fighting grants for local police departments across the country to purchase military equipment, such as armored personnel carriers, which is then used against U.S. citizens, mostly to serve drug warrants.

I’m relieved that bin Laden is dead. And the Navy SEALs who carried out the harrowing raid that ended his life have my respect and admiration. And for all the massive waste and abuse our government has perpetrated in the name of fighting terrorism over the last decade, there’s something satisfying in knowing that he was killed in a limited, targeted operation based on specific intelligence.

But because of the actions of one guy, we allowed all the bullet points above to happen. That we managed to kill him a decade after the September 11 attacks is symbolically important, but hardly seems worth the celebrations we saw across the country last night. There was something unsettling about watching giddy crowds bounce around beach balls and climb telephone polls last night, as if they were in the lawn seats at a rock festival. Solemn and somber appreciation that an evil man is gone seemed like the more appropriate reaction.

Yes, bin Laden the man is dead. But he achieved all he set out to achieve, and a hell of a lot more. He forever changed who we are as a country, and for the worse. Mostly because we let him. That isn’t something a special ops team can fix.

Something to think about.

ForeverChiefs58
05-02-2011, 09:54 PM
OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!

I for one am sorry to treat you like a birther on obama. I was happy obama ended it by putting it out there, and you too have put an end to it. I am sorry and I promise not to bring it up again. You have my respect even if I don't deserve yours. You argue with enough people on here they start getting lumped into the same catagory.

Not an excuse, but when I was a kid growing up in the middle east my sister and I were at some friends house and some guys broke in. Our parents friends and their kids were hacked to death with machetes. They saved my sister and I by sending us out the back door moments before their death. I can never forget those screams, and sometimes still hear it in nightmares even today.

Dad got a shotgun for protection after that. About 6 months later while my dad and sister were at church a guy broke in our house and again with a machete. My mom got the shotgun and warned him to leave. She really didn't want to shoot. She begged him to just leave. He hit her twice in the head with the machete before she pulled the trigger. Turns out they were radical muslims targeting us for going to church.

I have family and friends fighting in afghanistan also and I am just really weary of those who sypathize with radical muslims. Sorry I put you in that category, I was wrong.

orange
05-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Yes, bin Laden the man is dead. But he achieved all he set out to achieve, and a hell of a lot more.

Something to think about.

Don't think about it too hard.

I always thought he sought to achieve:

(1) Westerners completely out of Islamic affairs generally and the Middle East in particular - especially out of the Arabian peninsula and Israel destroyed.

(2) His own triumphant return as the great liberator and founder of a new Islamist state.

But then, I suppose I may be limiting the reaches of my mind by giving credence to his own statements.

Perhaps the Bushites were right - "they hate us for our freedom."

Pitt Gorilla
05-02-2011, 10:34 PM
LOL at Hannity and Rush today, unable to give Obama any credit. Both were actually quite upset today, which just seems bizarre.

patteeu
05-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I don't remember people criticizing him for that but then again my memory is pretty hazy

You don't remember criticisms that Bush/Rumsfeld used too few troops in Iraq despite the fact that their generals originally recommended a larger force?

patteeu
05-02-2011, 10:54 PM
Dang - if the Republicans were still in charge none of this celebration would be happening. Bush, McCain & all of them insisted they would ask permission from Pakistan before acting on actionable intelligence. Bin Laden wudda been long gone if the Republicans had warned the Pakastanis that we were coming. Let us all give thanks that a decisive Commander in Chief like Obama is in charge instead of yet another "ask permission first" Republican weenie.

Did they? When?

patteeu
05-02-2011, 10:58 PM
OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!

Does this mean you put Hamas and Israel in the same category?

suzzer99
05-03-2011, 02:31 AM
OK, fair enough. I never would have believed that he'd be incapable of authorizing this mission. So the fact that he got the opportunity and took it doesn't impress me that much.

And as far as political risk goes, I don't think a success is as politically valuable to Obama as a failed Operation Eagle Claw was damaging to Carter. If this op had failed, I don't think there was any chance of it being as high profile as Carter's rescue attempt failure turned out to be so I don't see a lot of political downside for signing off on the mission.

How much do you make per word?

Baby Lee
05-03-2011, 03:12 AM
You better be sincere. I sent some people of mine to Hawaii to do some hardcore investigations. They've kept me updated on their progress, and believe me: Chiefsplanet is going to be FLOORED when they hear all about the final results.

I have to say I'm very proud of myself right now. I read this post as flawlessly as one could possibly imagine. Afterwards I had a huge laugh, HUGE. I really really feel like I accomplished something important.

Lzen
05-03-2011, 08:25 AM
Clinton had a chance also and decided to pass.

Obama decided to act and told Pakistan to screw themselves just like he said he would when he was roundly mocked by Hillary and the Repubs in 2008

I'm not a fan of Obama and his politics. But this is one thing he really did well. Bravo. :clap:

Lzen
05-03-2011, 08:54 AM
Bin Laden resisted the assault force, and was shot in the face during a firefight.

That is awesome!

Lzen
05-03-2011, 08:56 AM
Sure, if you ignore the fact that Obama made getting Obama the #1 priority of the US intelligence community when he first entered office!

ROFL

Lzen
05-03-2011, 09:02 AM
Hell freezes over.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/rush-limbaugh-we-need-to-open-the-program-today-by-congratulating-president-obama/

“President Obama has continued the Bush policies of keeping a military presence in the Middle East. He did not scrub the mission to get Bin Laden. In fact, it may be that President Obama single-handedly came up with the technique in order to pull this off. You see, the military wanted to go in there and bomb as they always do. They wanted to drop missiles and drop bombs and a number of totally destructive techniques here. But President Obama, perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces. No one else thought of that. President Obama. Not a single intelligence adviser, not a single national security adviser, not a single military adviser came up with the idea of using SEAL Team 6 or any Special Forces.”

Yeah, that sounds so believable. ROFL

Donger
05-03-2011, 09:11 AM
Yeah, that sounds so believable. ROFL

Yeah, that did sound a little exaggerated. As it turns out, they apparently went around the room and discussed three options:

1) Air strike

2) Helicopter assault

3) Wait.

A consensus was reached to green-light #2

vailpass
05-03-2011, 09:18 AM
Yeah, that sounds so believable. ROFL

Which part didn't you find credible? The part where they said that obama, in a room full of top military and NSA personnel, was "perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces. No one else thought of that."LMAO
The fugging NSA didn't realize SpecOps was an option? LMAO

If a glorified community organizer without a whit of military experience is the most qualified man in the room that is a very scary thought for America.

Radar Chief
05-03-2011, 09:19 AM
LOL at Hannity and Rush today, unable to give Obama any credit. Both were actually quite upset today, which just seems bizarre.

Bizarre indeed. Rush started his show by giving Obama credit. What show were you listening too?

Lzen
05-03-2011, 09:37 AM
Really? This is easy stuff for them.

My (Glenn Beck fan) trainer was ripping Obama for not being more excited in the press conference. I think they'll rip Obama for giving him a Muslim burial. They'll say he's trying to capitalize on intelligence and plans started by Bush or that all credit should go to the military and Obama should stop hogging the spotlight. They'll erroneously suggest that Obama knew about this when he was capping on Trump, then not really make much of a retraction (or word it very cleverly so it sounds like that's what they're saying but could be interpreted the other way). They'll poke fun at his overly dramatic walk from the podium.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure much more creative intelligent minds than me are brainstorming on possible Obama attack vectors on this, and how long to wait to use them.

That Glenn Beck is such a terrible, terrible. man.
http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/02/remember-heroes-and-victims-of-911/ (http://email.glennbeck.com/gb40/c2.php?GNBK/85588905/35483/H/N/V/http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/02/remember-heroes-and-victims-of-911/)

patteeu
05-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Yeah, that sounds so believable. ROFL

Pittsie failed to see the sarcasm in the Rush transcript in the same way he fails to detect the self-aggrandizing bullshit in the President's description of events.

fbal4lif32
05-03-2011, 09:53 AM
That Glenn Beck is such a terrible, terrible. man.
http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/02/remember-heroes-and-victims-of-911/ (http://email.glennbeck.com/gb40/c2.php?GNBK/85588905/35483/H/N/V/http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/02/remember-heroes-and-victims-of-911/)

Except for those ten or so families that he has ranted on and said he hated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf33g9ep4YU

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 11:13 AM
Pittsie failed to see the sarcasm in the Rush transcript in the same way he fails to detect the self-aggrandizing bullshit in the President's description of events.

Yeah, I'm going to say it was probably heavily sarcastic. Not, however, going to listen to that drug addict to confirm.

blaise
05-03-2011, 11:16 AM
I like how this has turned into a PR campaign for Obama.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 11:29 AM
I like how this has turned into a PR campaign for Obama.

Spin in a political forum? Bless my stars, I'm getting the vapors.....

go bowe
05-03-2011, 11:37 AM
Spin in a political forum? Bless my stars, I'm getting the vapors.....
mmmmmmmmmm...

vapors... :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 11:50 AM
I like how this has turned into a PR campaign for Obama.

You haven't been watching Fox News have you?

blaise
05-03-2011, 11:51 AM
You haven't been watching Fox News have you?

I don't watch the news at all. I don't feel I miss much.

Dave Lane
05-03-2011, 11:53 AM
I'd respond substantively, but that wink suggests you don't even believe your own bullshit.

Unlike Patteau. That dude is one dyed in the wool kool-aid drinker.

Mikey's comment is amazingly dumb, even by his standards.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 11:57 AM
I don't watch the news at all. I don't feel I miss much.

You're not. I try not to watch except O'Reilly but I couldn't help myself yesterday.

Basically it was the Bush Reunion Party

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Does this mean you put Hamas and Israel in the same category?

No way. Nobody can put them in the same category.

Hamas actually seeks out children to kill. whether it be for a suicide bombing mission, for doing bad things like going to school, listening to music, acting too "western", or just for being israeli children on a school bus. Hamas has a stated goal being the destruction of israel...Death to all jews, and no peace with them ever till they are all dead.

Hamas makes Hitler look like mickey mouse...Oh yeah, they even have mickey mouse teaching children that death should be to ALL jews, and the way to get into heaven is from death through killing.

vailpass
05-03-2011, 12:16 PM
No way. Nobody can put them in the same category.

Hamas actually seeks out children to kill. whether it be for a suicide bombing mission, for doing bad things like going to school, listening to music, acting too "western", or just for being israeli children on a school bus. Hamas has a stated goal being the destruction of israel...Death to all jews, and no peace with them ever till they are all dead.

Hamas makes Hitler look like mickey mouse...Oh yeah, they even have mickey mouse teaching children that death should be to ALL jews, and the way to get into heaven is from death through killing.

I used to think this too until I listened to Frankie and direckshun and orange.

alnorth
05-03-2011, 12:17 PM
Yeah, that did sound a little exaggerated. As it turns out, they apparently went around the room and discussed three options:

1) Air strike

2) Helicopter assault

3) Wait.

A consensus was reached to green-light #2

Actually, from what I could read, there was no consensus. Perhaps half wanted #2, the rest wanted the safer options of either #3 or if you are going to do anything at all, then #1. Obama slept on it, and went with #2 the next day before flying to Alabama.

The anti-Obama nuts are trying to over-dramatize this by saying that either Obama deserves no credit at all, or he came up with it on his own (which obviously isn't true, thus no credit), no middle ground.

Well no, Obama does deserve some decent amount of credit because #2 could have gone horribly wrong. If OBL is not there, then we have an embarassing diplomatic incident, or perhaps something goes horribly wrong, OBL either escapes or we lose any proof he was ever there, the Pakistan military gets in a shootout, rounds up the surviving US military members, and we're in a big fat mess.

We had a decent idea he was probably there, and our military had a decent shot at getting him, so he rolled the dice knowing full well this could have been another Carter-esque "operation eagle claw" failure.

go bowe
05-03-2011, 12:34 PM
I used to think this too until I listened to Frankie and direckshun and orange.intellectual flexibility is important...

it's good to see that you have finally come around to the right way of thinking... :p :p :p

Pitt Gorilla
05-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Actually, from what I could read, there was no consensus. Perhaps half wanted #2, the rest wanted the safer options of either #3 or if you are going to do anything at all, then #1. Obama slept on it, and went with #2 the next day before flying to Alabama.

The anti-Obama nuts are trying to over-dramatize this by saying that either Obama deserves no credit at all, or he came up with it on his own (which obviously isn't true, thus no credit), no middle ground.

Well no, Obama does deserve some decent amount of credit because #2 could have gone horribly wrong. If OBL is not there, then we have an embarassing diplomatic incident, or perhaps something goes horribly wrong, OBL either escapes or we lose any proof he was ever there, the Pakistan military gets in a shootout, rounds up the surviving US military members, and we're in a big fat mess.

We had a decent idea he was probably there, and our military had a decent shot at getting him, so he rolled the dice knowing full well this could have been another Carter-esque "operation eagle claw" failure.I wonder what the Rs would have said if something had gone wrong?

patteeu
05-03-2011, 12:38 PM
Actually, from what I could read, there was no consensus. Perhaps half wanted #2, the rest wanted the safer options of either #3 or if you are going to do anything at all, then #1. Obama slept on it, and went with #2 the next day before flying to Alabama.

The anti-Obama nuts are trying to over-dramatize this by saying that either Obama deserves no credit at all, or he came up with it on his own (which obviously isn't true, thus no credit), no middle ground.

Well no, Obama does deserve some decent amount of credit because #2 could have gone horribly wrong. If OBL is not there, then we have an embarassing diplomatic incident, or perhaps something goes horribly wrong, OBL either escapes or we lose any proof he was ever there, the Pakistan military gets in a shootout, rounds up the surviving US military members, and we're in a big fat mess.

We had a decent idea he was probably there, and our military had a decent shot at getting him, so he rolled the dice knowing full well this could have been another Carter-esque "operation eagle claw" failure.

I haven't read all the bin Laden threads but I find it hard to believe there are very many people, nuts or otherwise, who are giving Obama no credit. What I'm seeing are people pushing back against Obama supporters' efforts to claim too much credit.

The Limbaugh sarcasm was aimed at Obama's tendency, rhetorically at least, to claim too much personal credit ("I did this then I did that, etc."). Perhaps we were spoiled by the more gracious rhetoric of GW Bush.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Actually, from what I could read, there was no consensus. Perhaps half wanted #2, the rest wanted the safer options of either #3 or if you are going to do anything at all, then #1. Obama slept on it, and went with #2 the next day before flying to Alabama.

The anti-Obama nuts are trying to over-dramatize this by saying that either Obama deserves no credit at all, or he came up with it on his own (which obviously isn't true, thus no credit), no middle ground.

Well no, Obama does deserve some decent amount of credit because #2 could have gone horribly wrong. If OBL is not there, then we have an embarassing diplomatic incident, or perhaps something goes horribly wrong, OBL either escapes or we lose any proof he was ever there, the Pakistan military gets in a shootout, rounds up the surviving US military members, and we're in a big fat mess.

We had a decent idea he was probably there, and our military had a decent shot at getting him, so he rolled the dice knowing full well this could have been another Carter-esque "operation eagle claw" failure.

Apparently #2 was the consensus favorite (especially after the CIA contractor was released). Spot on otherwise. Moderate-high risk, high reward.

Oh, and BEP, per usual, was wrong about the helos being launched from a Pakistani base.

"The commando team had raced into the Pakistani night from a base in Jalalabad, just across the border in Afghanistan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?pagewanted=2&hp

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:40 PM
I wonder what the Rs would have said if something had gone wrong?

He's JIMMY CARTER like we predicted!

patteeu
05-03-2011, 12:42 PM
No way. Nobody can put them in the same category.

Hamas actually seeks out children to kill. whether it be for a suicide bombing mission, for doing bad things like going to school, listening to music, acting too "western", or just for being israeli children on a school bus. Hamas has a stated goal being the destruction of israel...Death to all jews, and no peace with them ever till they are all dead.

Hamas makes Hitler look like mickey mouse...Oh yeah, they even have mickey mouse teaching children that death should be to ALL jews, and the way to get into heaven is from death through killing.

That should be true, but that's exactly what Frankie just did. Go back and read his post and see if he left enough wiggle room in the ambiguous part of his statement to equate the Israelis with Hamas. That's why he didn't just simply condemn Hamas but instead needed to preface his remarks.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 12:42 PM
I wonder what the Rs would have said if something had gone wrong?

Stood by the President and the military, no doubt. ;)

I haven't read all the bin Laden threads but I find it hard to believe there are very many people, nuts or otherwise, who are giving Obama no credit. What I'm seeing are people pushing back against Obama supporters' efforts to claim too much credit.

The Limbaugh sarcasm was aimed at Obama's tendency, rhetorically at least, to claim too much personal credit ("I did this then I did that, etc."). Perhaps we were spoiled by the more gracious rhetoric of GW Bush.

Palin, for one, praised W but not Obama.

blaise
05-03-2011, 12:43 PM
I wonder what the Rs would have said if something had gone wrong?

Something hypocritical, just like half the Ds here would be saying this was no big deal had Osama been killed when Bush was in office.

vailpass
05-03-2011, 12:45 PM
intellectual flexibility is important...

it's good to see that you have finally come around to the right way of thinking... :p :p :p

LMAO

Bowe you know my thinking has always been on the right side.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Apparently #2 was the consensus favorite (especially after the CIA contractor was released). Spot on otherwise. Moderate-high risk, high reward.

Oh, and BEP, per usual, was wrong about the helos being launched from a Pakistani base.

"The commando team had raced into the Pakistani night from a base in Jalalabad, just across the border in Afghanistan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?pagewanted=2&hp

No, it's not that I was "wrong." The earlier morning mainstream press reports, like on abc reported such things which I passed along. So they were "wrong." This is called shooting the messenger. I noted that the press was reporting things as I stated and I linked it earlier in the thread. When the contrary facts came up later in the day in other news reports I did say it had to be that the press mis reported or was sloppy.

You should be well aware that the story has been changing over time as more is known. The story has changed and it continues to change. Not only is the story changing but some of it is downright fishy. Such as OBL belongs to a sect that believes in an anonymous ground burial—not a sea burial. Also, it wasn't his wife he used as a shield but now it's a sister.

Also, the orginal DNA was likely from a sibling but not Osama's because they would have had that beforehand. So it's likely OBL but not an absolute.

Now some of this is acceptable as things may have been done in haste, but it's also a sign there may be a few lies and the story is being re-arranged to cover gaps, accusations by "deniers" or to protect including Pakistani officials since they have so many militants. Never know.

vailpass
05-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Apparently #2 was the consensus favorite (especially after the CIA contractor was released). Spot on otherwise. Moderate-high risk, high reward.

Oh, and BEP, per usual, was wrong about the helos being launched from a Pakistani base.

"The commando team had raced into the Pakistani night from a base in Jalalabad, just across the border in Afghanistan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?pagewanted=2&hp

You talk like you were there. Which one are you in picture?

Amnorix
05-03-2011, 12:49 PM
You don't remember criticisms that Bush/Rumsfeld used too few troops in Iraq despite the fact that their generals originally recommended a larger force?

Yes, they were criticized for that, and rightly so as it turned out.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:52 PM
You talk like you were there. Which one are you in picture?

:LOL:

We only know what we're being told. JHC is that so hard to deal with. This is govts we're dealing with. They should have kept the body though that was a preposterous claim as to why they dumped it so quickly.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 12:54 PM
This operation was done in conjunction with the Pakistani govt though. This was launched from a US base in Pakistan. ( yup I said that) I admit they have been lousy in many ways but they came through on this one this time.

The operation went down exactly as the President outlined in the 2008 debates, because the Pakistanis are inherently untrustworthy (AQ Khan, etc). You just chose not to believe the correct inferences, e.g., you were wrong.

Happens to the best of us.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:54 PM
I smell Pat Tillman.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:56 PM
The operation went down exactly as the President outlined in the 2008 debates, because the Pakistanis are inherently untrustworthy (AQ Khan, etc). You just chose not to believe the correct inferences, e.g., you were wrong.

Happens to the best of us.

No I didn't suspect the earlier reports and never saw the later reports until some posters put them in this thread later in the day. Nice that you omitted my earlier links.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 12:56 PM
I smell Pat Tillman.

OBL got shot by his own guys?

Seriously, run with that. See how far it gets you.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 12:58 PM
OBL got shot by his own guys?

Seriously, run with that. See how far it gets you.

That's not what I meant, and you know it. That was in reference to the possibility the story is being rearranged as I stated in the last longer post #361.
Like protecting Pakistani officials that may have helped. You never know.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 01:04 PM
That's not what I meant, and you know it. That was in reference to the possibility the story is being rearranged as I stated in the last longer post #361.
Like protecting Pakistani officials that may have helped. You never know.

I think it's quite likely someone in the ISI was aware of the hideout and its occupants. As such, pretty much no one in the Pakistani military or government could get more than a few minutes notice on the operation.

We'd be strengthening our relationship by crediting them for their role in the operation. That's not what's happening, so the more logical inference is it went down as outlined above, and as the NYT article states.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 01:14 PM
I think it's quite likely someone in the ISI was aware of the hideout and its occupants. As such, pretty much no one in the Pakistani military or government could get more than a few minutes notice on the operation.

We'd be strengthening our relationship by crediting them for their role in the operation. That's not what's happening, so the more logical inference is it went down as outlined above, and as the NYT article states.

That's not the reason why I said it would protect any Pakistani. It's because of the make up of their own people, many of whom do not like us, many who know the CIA runs many things in that part of the world, and their militant demographic which can create a problem for those officials and/or their govt. That's a reason why I think the story could have been changed. Again, it's just a reason if that's the case.

Frankie
05-03-2011, 01:37 PM
I for one am sorry to treat you like a birther on obama. I was happy obama ended it by putting it out there, and you too have put an end to it. I am sorry and I promise not to bring it up again. You have my respect even if I don't deserve yours. You argue with enough people on here they start getting lumped into the same catagory.

Not an excuse, but when I was a kid growing up in the middle east my sister and I were at some friends house and some guys broke in. Our parents friends and their kids were hacked to death with machetes. They saved my sister and I by sending us out the back door moments before their death. I can never forget those screams, and sometimes still hear it in nightmares even today.

Dad got a shotgun for protection after that. About 6 months later while my dad and sister were at church a guy broke in our house and again with a machete. My mom got the shotgun and warned him to leave. She really didn't want to shoot. She begged him to just leave. He hit her twice in the head with the machete before she pulled the trigger. Turns out they were radical muslims targeting us for going to church.

I have family and friends fighting in afghanistan also and I am just really weary of those who sypathize with radical muslims. Sorry I put you in that category, I was wrong.

Wow man. This is pretty deep. I understand your touchiness of the subject now. You do deserve my respect and I appreciate and cherish your stated one.

Let me now address parts of your post more specifically. I'll color-match them for easier reference:

- I would not have had any problem with shouting my disapproval of any terroristic group, had I not have been treated by some here as a sympathizer. It seems like some people in this forum had tried and convicted me in their minds only based on their own lack of information about the ME and on the fact that I was born there. then when they were asking for specific wording and proof one does resent providing it to satisfy an "undeserving" bunch. "Let them wallow in their ignorance," one concludes. I felt I had given enough strong indication on this board for the intelligent to see my position. The rest, IMO, could go to hell still demanding my 'condemnation.' I finally did put it up for you because the post I replied to convinced me that you were different from the few uninformed and you asked me respectfully. I have serious criticisms of President Obama, but I totally understand his resentment about giving in to the same ignorance.

FAIW, let me assure you the absolute majorty of people of any education from the ME condemn terrorism. But one has to also distinguish between 'terrorism' born of radicalism and 'terrorism' born of utter frustration, deprivation, and global disenfranchisement. The latter is by no means an excuse for terrorism, but frustrated people with no future and deprived of human dignity, often do put their trust in the radicals who have their own political or religious agenda but also build them schools and health centers.

- I don't argue with a lot of people. THEY argue with ME. ;)

Arguments get to be tedious and repetitive and I don't really look forward to them. But I don't back away from them either, especially when insults and profanity towards me and my heritage are made.

AND, you are right. Some usernames become very blurry when there are 'attacks' from all directions. I did make this mistake with blaise too and since then I have made sure I recognize his posts from others.

- I'm very sorry about your childhood experience in the ME and you have every right to feel the way you do. But I'm glad you understand that "radicals" were involved. Radicalism, IMO, is the worm-whole back into devolution and dehumanization. Again reasonably educated people of the world, including middle-easterners, condemn radicalism and therefore terrorism.

:toast:

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 01:43 PM
Where did you grow up in the ME FC58?

go bowe
05-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Where did you grow up in the ME FC58?a better question is where the hell did you grow up?

Pitt Gorilla
05-03-2011, 02:03 PM
a better question is when the hell will you grow up?FYP

patteeu
05-03-2011, 02:19 PM
Yes, they were criticized for that, and rightly so as it turned out.

Nonsense. The invasion was the most successful invasion of it's kind in the history of our planet.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 02:21 PM
That's not what I meant, and you know it. That was in reference to the possibility the story is being rearranged as I stated in the last longer post #361.
Like protecting Pakistani officials that may have helped. You never know.

It wouldn't surprise me if we had CIA assets in the Pakistan ISI who helped make this possible in some way and who we will now protect. There's no particular reason to believe one way or the other really.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 02:32 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if we had CIA assets in the Pakistan ISI who helped make this possible in some way and who we will now protect. There's no particular reason to believe one way or the other really.

That's a matter of opinion. When a story gets changed people speculate as to why.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 02:43 PM
Yeah, but it is just common sense. Come on, don't you think most jews would be upset if hitler was given a traditional jewish burial.

I think if Hitler hadn't killed himself he would have been put on trial with the rest of the Nazis and executed afterwards—then buried. Put em all in a mass grave or somethin.'

According to Judge Napolitano OBL was in Muslim sect that believed in an anonymous ground burial so burying him at sea should be disrespect enough.

Cave Johnson
05-03-2011, 02:45 PM
Nonsense. The invasion was the most successful invasion of it's kind in the history of our planet.

The occupation/aftermath? Not so much.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 02:57 PM
The occupation/aftermath? Not so much.

Now they have terrorism in Iraq where they didn't before.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 03:48 PM
The occupation/aftermath? Not so much.

The criticism I'm talking about was over the size and composition of the invasion force.

And it's not at all clear whether a larger force would have created a better post-invasion environment unless you're talking about a serious occupation-capable force which was never on the table.

Ugly Duck
05-03-2011, 05:38 PM
What I'm seeing are people pushing back against Obama supporters' efforts to claim too much credit.

Candidate Obama warned us that he would order a unilateral covert hit if he had actionable intelligence & didn't trust Pakistan. Bush, McCain, Hannity, Limbaugh & Palin ALL totally blasted the idea & swore up & down that they would NEVER undertake such a brash & dangerous plan. Tough to give the Republicans much credit when they totally rejected Obama's stated methodology - which turned out to be a rousing success.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 06:04 PM
Candidate Obama warned us that he would order a unilateral covert hit if he had actionable intelligence & didn't trust Pakistan. Bush, McCain, Hannity, Limbaugh & Palin ALL totally blasted the idea & swore up & down that they would NEVER undertake such a brash & dangerous plan. Tough to give the Republicans much credit when they totally rejected Obama's stated methodology - which turned out to be a rousing success.:LOL:God love ya.

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 07:08 PM
No, it's not that I was "wrong." The earlier morning mainstream press reports, like on abc reported such things which I passed along. So they were "wrong." This is called shooting the messenger. I noted that the press was reporting things as I stated and I linked it earlier in the thread. When the contrary facts came up later in the day in other news reports I did say it had to be that the press mis reported or was sloppy.

You should be well aware that the story has been changing over time as more is known. The story has changed and it continues to change. Not only is the story changing but some of it is downright fishy. Such as OBL belongs to a sect that believes in an anonymous ground burial—not a sea burial. Also, it wasn't his wife he used as a shield but now it's a sister.

Also, the orginal DNA was likely from a sibling but not Osama's because they would have had that beforehand. So it's likely OBL but not an absolute.

Now some of this is acceptable as things may have been done in haste, but it's also a sign there may be a few lies and the story is being re-arranged to cover gaps, accusations by "deniers" or to protect including Pakistani officials since they have so many militants. Never know.

It is possible that you are both right. Some of the U.S. aircraft used in the raid might have come from the Pakistani air base of Ghazi, just 33 miles away from Abbottabad, while the transport helicopters possibly came from Afghanistan. One of the transports that was shot down might have been a MH-60 Sea Hawk.

Ghazi was used by the United States for humanitarian relief operations after the floods of 2010.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 07:21 PM
Candidate Obama warned us that he would order a unilateral covert hit if he had actionable intelligence & didn't trust Pakistan. Bush, McCain, Hannity, Limbaugh & Palin ALL totally blasted the idea & swore up & down that they would NEVER undertake such a brash & dangerous plan. Tough to give the Republicans much credit when they totally rejected Obama's stated methodology - which turned out to be a rousing success.

This is revisionist history. Obama was criticized for those unwise comments not because the policy was wrong, but because it was undiplomatic to say so publicly. It's no big surprise that Obama has us on the outs with not only Pakistan, but also Saudi Arabia, the rest of the Middle East, Honduras and most of our main allies in Europe. The guy is a foreign policy disaster, despite this one positive development.

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Where did you grow up in the ME FC58?

nairobi, kenya, then lived in Israel for a few years.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 07:30 PM
OK, here:

I condemn ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts. That includes Hamas.

Happy now? I feel like Obama producing a document for something that should have been obvious to all!

What do you mean by "ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts"? Does Israel fall into that group? How about the Bush administration? If you're condemning Hamas to the same degree that you're condemning everyone else, it's not really much of a condemnation. In fact, it becomes more of an equivocation.

Ugly Duck
05-03-2011, 07:48 PM
the policy was wrong

The policy was successful (note the bullet in bin Laden's head).

patteeu
05-03-2011, 07:54 PM
The policy was successful (note the bullet in bin Laden's head).

The criticism wasn't about the policy (note reality).

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 09:29 PM
FAIW, let me assure you the absolute majorty of people of any education from the ME condemn terrorism. But one has to also distinguish between 'terrorism' born of radicalism and 'terrorism' born of utter frustration, deprivation, and global disenfranchisement. The latter is by no means an excuse for terrorism, but frustrated people with no future and deprived of human dignity, often do put their trust in the radicals who have their own political or religious agenda but also build them schools and health centers.
:toast:

This is the logical conclusion of why people turn to such idiology.

But it also makes me wonder why there wouldn't be more terrorists groups coming from places like north korea which are some of the most deprived, disenfranchised people in the entire world? Their leader doesn't even let them have cell phones or news let alone luxuries such as food.

It would also make me wonder then why our military in japan wouldn't be constantly attacked by radical groups mad or who were affected in some way over being nuclear bombed?

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 09:48 PM
What do you mean by "ANY and ALL groups, either attached to or free of any government, who engage in terrorist acts"? Does Israel fall into that group? How about the Bush administration? If you're condemning Hamas to the same degree that you're condemning everyone else, it's not really much of a condemnation. In fact, it becomes more of an equivocation.

I would agree with everything frankie said and of course would also distinguish intent.

Huge difference between someone who tries to kill random or as many civilians as possible vs. retaliation or trying to stop enemy fire and having colladeral damage as a result of enemy using civilians as shields.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 10:14 PM
I would agree with everything frankie said and of course would also distinguish intent.

Huge difference between someone who tries to kill random or as many civilians as possible vs. retaliation or trying to stop enemy fire and having colladeral damage as a result of enemy using civilians as shields.

Sure, but that's the beauty of what he said. He was vague enough that he could have meant something completely reasonable or he could have meant something objectionable. I've known him long enough to know which one it is.

When you asked him to condemn Hamas, he could have simply said, "OK, I condemn Hamas", but instead he prefaced his comments with the unnecessary statement about "all groups" specifically including those "attached to... government". His preface wouldn't be objectionable if the groups attached to government that he's talking about are groups like Hitler's SS, but if he's talking about US predator drone controllers, that's a completely different story. Speaking clearly isn't Frankie's strong suit, but like I said, I've known him quite a while.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 10:22 PM
nairobi, kenya, then lived in Israel for a few years.

That explains the machete which is why I asked because I never heard of that used in Israel or the ME. The machetes were used by Rwandians against Rwandians too. It's not really a terrorist tool generally.

Geez, I really was thinking of visiting Nairobi/Kenya area.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 10:25 PM
The policy was successful (note the bullet in bin Laden's head).

How come, as a leftist, you guys are criticizing the use of summary execution by a US president as violating the Constitution and 4 treaties we've signed? And how it's a slippery slope by creating a precedent and where will it end? Is it because a Democrat did it?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-03-2011, 10:32 PM
<script language="javascript">var VideoID = "14798"; var Width = 425; var Height = 344;</script><script src="http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/hdplayer/rt.php" language="javascript"></script>

Frankie
05-03-2011, 11:03 PM
But it also makes me wonder why there wouldn't be more terrorists groups coming from places like north korea which are some of the most deprived, disenfranchised people in the entire world? Their leader doesn't even let them have cell phones or news let alone luxuries such as food.

It would also make me wonder then why our military in japan wouldn't be constantly attacked by radical groups mad or who were affected in some way over being nuclear bombed?

These cases are really apples and watermelons. The terrorism that people of NK would do would be directed towards their own regime and therefore would victimize their own people.

The case with Japan is helped by (A) the fact that Japan had declared war on the U.S. and (B) that the Japanese society is more of an educated society than the Palestinians'.

I said before that the less educated folks are the more they are given to allowing their frustrations to be 'solved' by violence. That's why I have repeatedly stated on this forum that the eventual solution to this problem is for the same forces (essentially the western powers) who facilitated the Palestinians' forced displacement after WWII, to start taking the PR market away from Hamas, etc. by actively providing Palestinians with means of education, health, and human dignity. It's gonna be the slow but sure solution. Sadly though, we have shown in our recent history that we have no patience for late benefit. We have always wanted immediate benefit, future-be-damned, and have paid for it in the long run.

Frankie
05-03-2011, 11:15 PM
Sure, but that's the beauty of what he said. He was vague enough that he could have meant something completely reasonable or he could have meant something objectionable. I've known him long enough to know which one it is.

When you asked him to condemn Hamas, he could have simply said, "OK, I condemn Hamas", but instead he prefaced his comments with the unnecessary statement about "all groups" specifically including those "attached to... government". His preface wouldn't be objectionable if the groups attached to government that he's talking about are groups like Hitler's SS, but if he's talking about US predator drone controllers, that's a completely different story. Speaking clearly isn't Frankie's strong suit, but like I said, I've known him quite a while.
Look Pat Trump. I said I condemn terrorism and Hamas's part in it. That's what I've been asked to do and I did it. If you want to keep moving the goal post, be my guest. I understand 'the Donald' immediately went from 'birther' to 'poor-studenter.' He is just as clownish doing that as you are keeping up your holier-than-though act. I have never run from my opinion that I consider violent acts against innocent people terrorism. Be it by rogue groups or state sponsored. FC58 and I disagree on that definition and that's kosher by me. We'll just agree to disagree.

ForeverChiefs58
05-03-2011, 11:21 PM
That explains the machete which is why I asked because I never heard of that used in Israel or the ME. The machetes were used by Rwandians against Rwandians too. It's not really a terrorist tool generally.

Geez, I really was thinking of visiting Nairobi/Kenya area.

Guess it's a good thing they didn't have guns as I would prob be dead.

I don't know how safe it is there now, but then there were no street lights, speed limits, or real laws to speak of.

Had an accident and cut off my finger and when we went to the hospital for them to try and sew it back on, they gave me a small piece of wood. I didn't know what it was for until they told me it was to bite during surgery as they didn't have anything to numb pain. :spock:

Also lived in mombasa for a couple years, and liked it better spending my time on the different colored beaches there.

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 11:23 PM
Guess it's a good thing they didn't have guns as I would prob be dead.
Or a suicide vest. Oops! :doh!: I mean a suicide loin cloth! :drool:

Frankie
05-03-2011, 11:56 PM
Osama bin Laden corpse photo is fake. This is how it was done:

(Warning: Gruesome photo included in report. Open link at your own discretion.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-photo-fake

Frankie
05-04-2011, 12:19 AM
Surreal:

Bin Laden family (including OBL) in Sweden in the 70s.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/03/article-1382883-0BE1D1A000000578-811_634x447.jpg

Bewbies
05-04-2011, 01:43 AM
Surreal:

Bin Laden family (including OBL) in Sweden in the 70s.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/03/article-1382883-0BE1D1A000000578-811_634x447.jpg

Seeing him "normal" looking like other folks really makes me sad that he chose the path he did. Quite an unfortunate waste of one's life.

FAX
05-04-2011, 01:55 AM
Seeing him "normal" looking like other folks really makes me sad that he chose the path he did. Quite an unfortunate waste of one's life.

You never know where the next despot or maniacal heathen is going to emerge, Mr. Bewbies. For a time, Pol Pot was just another young dude studying radio electronics in Paris.

It's best to be watchful and ever alert for up-and-coming tyrannical, mass-murdering madmen.

FAX

ForeverChiefs58
05-04-2011, 06:48 AM
These cases are really apples and watermelons. The terrorism that people of NK would do would be directed towards their own regime and therefore would victimize their own people.

The case with Japan is helped by (A) the fact that Japan had declared war on the U.S. and (B) that the Japanese society is more of an educated society than the Palestinians'.

I said before that the less educated folks are the more they are given to allowing their frustrations to be 'solved' by violence. That's why I have repeatedly stated on this forum that the eventual solution to this problem is for the same forces (essentially the western powers) who facilitated the Palestinians' forced displacement after WWII, to start taking the PR market away from Hamas, etc. by actively providing Palestinians with means of education, health, and human dignity. It's gonna be the slow but sure solution. Sadly though, we have shown in our recent history that we have no patience for late benefit. We have always wanted immediate benefit, future-be-damned, and have paid for it in the long run.



Well, the top terrorists in all of the entire world are actually wealthy and educated. OBL turned out the way he did coming from a VERY wealthy and educated family, and AQ #2 is/was a doctor and quite wealthy as well.

IMO, I think the ME has so many terrorists because they are really brainwashed from a very early age and taught to hate and partake in terrorists activities against jews.

Their thoughts, feelings and teachings against jews cannot/should not be ignored, as this is the main focus of EVERY single ME terrorists. Schools, TV, and religion are ALL centered on hate towards this one race of people.

I would contend north koreans or south americans would be the most likely to be terrorists if based on just being poor, uneducated and isolated.

The teachings/preachings towards jews is a huge elephant in the room.

Amnorix
05-04-2011, 07:05 AM
How come, as a leftist, you guys are criticizing the use of summary execution by a US president as violating the Constitution and 4 treaties we've signed? And how it's a slippery slope by creating a precedent and where will it end? Is it because a Democrat did it?

Well let me think.....probably mostly because it's OSAMA BIN FUCKING LADEN, you crackpot.

If Bush had capped his ass I would've cheered equally loudly.

Radar Chief
05-04-2011, 07:09 AM
Seeing him "normal" looking like other folks really makes me sad that he chose the path he did. Quite an unfortunate waste of one's life.

Yea but OMG those clothes his parents dressed him in, and apparently they packed the entire family into that tiddy pink Cadillac. Can you really blame him?

BucEyedPea
05-04-2011, 07:14 AM
Well let me think.....probably mostly because it's OSAMA BIN ****ING LADEN, you crackpot.

If Bush had capped his ass I would've cheered equally loudly.

My, my look at the ad hominem. You can't come up with a better defense than a hostile outburst? I see I touched on a nerve, even though I was addressing someone who is more to the left than even you. Pesky interventionists even when a communication was addressed to someone very critical of Bush. Truth hurts 'eh. Those ARE typical left wing positions that somehow went into suspended animation when there's a D after a president's name. Remember we have not declared war on AQ yet.

Oh and BTW, those are also the position of libertarian and strict Constitutionalist Judge Napolitano who discussed them on Freedom Watch on Fox. He makes some legit points—which is an indication that would have been better and more practical to take OBL alive and try him or have declared war on him at the outset. No reason why the same result couldn't have been achieved under these things. As the reporting changes, the latest is that he wasn't even armed.

Thanks for showing how support of our Constitution is a crackpot idea and only has bearing when a Republican president is in office. So much for lefties claiming Bush violated the Constitution. LMAO

BucEyedPea
05-04-2011, 07:24 AM
White House Alters Bin Laden Death Scenario Significantly

Reliable news reports inform us today that bin Laden did not fire any weapon at anyone and that he did not use his wife or a woman as a human shield. The White House changed its stories that were put out by some officials. The news articles are here and here. It’s a reasonable inference that bin Laden had no weapon; for if he had had one, we would have now been told that important detail. This episode reflects poorly on the state of White House communications. The decision to dump his body into the ocean reflects poorly on the judgment of those in power. If they cannot get such lower-level matters straight, how little trust can anyone have in their decisions on far weightier matters!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/87276.html


There are now calls to assassinate Gaddafi! I always said the left are not pussies when it comes to using military force. If they can engage in violated protests then why would they be.

Amnorix
05-04-2011, 07:38 AM
My, my look at the ad hominem. You can't come up with a better defense than a hostile outburst? I see I touched on a nerve, even though I was addressing someone who is more to the left than even you. Pesky interventionists even when a communication was addressed to someone very critical of Bush. Truth hurts 'eh. Those ARE typical left wing positions that somehow went into suspended animation when there's a D after a president's name. Remember we have not declared war on AQ yet.

Stupid questions deserve stupid answers, sorry.

Al Queda isn't a government. You can't declare actual war on a multinational movement/theology/philosophy.

Oh and BTW, those are also the position of libertarian and strict Constitutionalist Judge Napolitano who discussed them on Freedom Watch on Fox. He makes some legit points—which is an indication that would have been better and more practical to take OBL alive and try him or have declared war on him at the outset. No reason why the same result couldn't have been achieved under these things. As the reporting changes, the latest is that he wasn't even armed.[quote]

Yes, I believe you when you say Napolitano expressed that position, and I'm sure a good, solid 2% of Americans wondered about the Constitutional and legal justifications for whacking America's #1 enemy in the world. You're in that 2%. I'm not. What else do you nee dto know?

Oh, and taking OSL may have rendered some useful intelligence I'm sure, but he's FAR better dead from a political standpoint. FAR, FAR better dead. And we're far better off that he is dead.

[quote]Thanks for showing how support of our Constitution is a crackpot idea and only has bearing when a Republican president is in office. So much for lefties claiming Bush violated the Constitution. LMAO

I don't pretend to represent the entire left. There's a spectrum of opinion, of course, but that requires the kind of nuanced thinking that your black/white world doesn't allow, so I'm hardly surprised at your comment.

I'm not at all sure hwo the Constitution justifies an extra-territorial capture of bin Laden any more or less than it would his killing.

Amnorix
05-04-2011, 07:38 AM
BTW, when I say that you're a crackpot, that is an ad hominem, but it doesn't render it less factual. Just so you know.

;)

ForeverChiefs58
05-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Remember we have not declared war on AQ yet.

Don't you think they fall under the "war on terrorism"? It is a braod umbrella, but I don't see how anyone can even think of terrorism without including AQ.

BucEyedPea
05-04-2011, 08:26 AM
Don't you think they fall under the "war on terrorism"? It is a braod umbrella, but I don't see how anyone can even think of terrorism without including AQ.

This is a legal argument about being in a legal state, as opposed to just rhetoric. This was already argued here extensively and repeatedly that Amnoriz was involved in before. You can use the search because I don't have the time, nor the desire to re-debate it at length. But I specifically addressed that post to UD for a reason, when Amnorix became a pesky interventionist and reacted over emotionally as if I was talking to him.

Just in case, this does not mean I an not happy BL is dead or that I no longer think those SEALS aren't awesome heroes. It's more about keeping certain legals in and getting the same results.

Amnorix
05-04-2011, 08:35 AM
This is a legal argument about being in a legal state, as opposed to just rhetoric. This was already argued here extensively and repeatedly that Amnoriz was involved in before. You can use the search because I don't have the time, nor the desire to re-debate it at length. But I specifically addressed that post to UD for a reason, when Amnorix became a pesky interventionist and reacted over emotionally as if I was talking to him.

Just in case, this does not mean I an not happy BL is dead or that I no longer think those SEALS aren't awesome heroes. It's more about keeping certain legals in and getting the same results.

You may be happy that BL is dead, but unless I'm mistaken you think that just about each and every step that led to his being killed was technically illegal under your illogical and strait-jacket reading of the Constitution.

The true comedy here is that your reading of the Constitution would lead to a completely dysfunctional and impotent America, and that your reading of the Constitution (as a whole) has NEVER been how the Constitution has been interpreted by anyone except a small group of Libertarians.

I hate to tell you this, but things started going dramatically wrong for your interpretation of the Constitution when George Washington, and not Patrick Henry (who opposed the Constitution at the Conventions) was elected our first President...

Amnorix
05-04-2011, 08:36 AM
But I specifically addressed that post to UD for a reason, when Amnorix became a pesky interventionist and reacted over emotionally as if I was talking to him.

If you want private conversation, there are mechanics for that.

Responding to others' posts and leaping in and out of threads is what we do around here. Your views on how this board should operate are as dysfunctional and ludicrous as your understanding of the US Constitution.

patteeu
05-04-2011, 09:05 AM
Look Pat Trump. I said I condemn terrorism and Hamas's part in it. That's what I've been asked to do and I did it. If you want to keep moving the goal post, be my guest. I understand 'the Donald' immediately went from 'birther' to 'poor-studenter.' He is just as clownish doing that as you are keeping up your holier-than-though act. I have never run from my opinion that I consider violent acts against innocent people terrorism. Be it by rogue groups or state sponsored. FC58 and I disagree on that definition and that's kosher by me. We'll just agree to disagree.

I'm asking you whether you consider Israel to be guilty of terrorism? How about the United States under the Bush administration?

Frankie
05-04-2011, 09:37 AM
Well, the top terrorists in all of the entire world are actually wealthy and educated. OBL turned out the way he did coming from a VERY wealthy and educated family, and AQ #2 is/was a doctor and quite wealthy as well.

IMO, I think the ME has so many terrorists because they are really brainwashed from a very early age and taught to hate and partake in terrorists activities against jews.

Their thoughts, feelings and teachings against jews cannot/should not be ignored, as this is the main focus of EVERY single ME terrorists. Schools, TV, and religion are ALL centered on hate towards this one race of people.

I would contend north koreans or south americans would be the most likely to be terrorists if based on just being poor, uneducated and isolated.

The teachings/preachings towards jews is a huge elephant in the room.
You missed my point a bit.

Poverty + lack of education + forced loss of human dignity = Hopeless frustration spiked with hurt cultural pride = Desparate, violent reaction.

Do their young ones get indoctrinated against the other side? Of course they do. But so did (do?) young Israelis and young Americans, when it comes to the subject of the ME. Jews have the motto "Never Forget." Well, so do Palestinians. The difference is the Jews in question have the luxury of having been helped to stand on their feet in the ME, and the Palestinians were forsaken. After all names like Begin, Sharon, and Ben Gurion are often associated with early Israeli "terrorism."

The above is by no means an attempt to justify terrorism. It's just discussing the motives.

Here's a good short read on the subject: http://hnn.us/articles/832.html

Frankie
05-04-2011, 09:38 AM
Well let me think.....probably mostly because it's OSAMA BIN ****ING LADEN, you crackpot.

If Bush had capped his ass I would've cheered equally loudly.

This.

Frankie
05-04-2011, 09:39 AM
Yea but OMG those clothes his parents dressed him in, and apparently they packed the entire family into that tiddy pink Cadillac. Can you really blame him?

:LOL: Welcome to the 70s.

Frankie
05-04-2011, 09:40 AM
[B]There are now calls to assassinate Gaddafi!

I'd be all for that.

Frankie
05-04-2011, 10:09 AM
The first windfall:

Saudi police: al-Qaida member surrenders

1 hr 41 mins ago

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Saudi Arabia says an al-Qaida member on the kingdom's most wanted list called from abroad and turned himself in.

Interior Ministry's spokesman Maj. Gen. Mansour Al-Turki said in a statement Wednesday that Khaled Hathal Abdullah al-Atifi al-Qahtani contacted the security authorities from an undisclosed country and expressed his wish to come home.

Al-Turki did not say when al-Qahtani was brought back to the kingdom, but many from the group fled to Yemen after a crackdown.

Al-Qahtani was reunited with his family and his surrender will be taken into consideration while looking into his case, Al-Turki said.

Al-Qahtani is apparently the first al-Qaida operative to surrender after its leader Osama bin Laden was killed on Monday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_al_qaida

ForeverChiefs58
05-04-2011, 11:47 AM
Pakistan has bin Laden wife, children in custody and will not turn over to US

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) – A senior Pakistani intelligence official said one of Osama bin Laden's daughters had seen her father being shot dead by U.S. forces, and was one of about 10 relatives of the al Qaeda leader in custody pending interrogation.

The official, who declined to be identified, said the daughter, aged 12 or 13, was one of the people who had confirmed that the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks had been killed by U.S. commandos in a raid early on Monday.

The relatives -- one of bin Laden's wives and up to eight children -- will be interrogated and then probably turned over to their countries of origin, and not the United States, in accordance with Pakistani law, he said.

The official said the wife and children were left behind after an American transport helicopter, possibly an MH-60 Sea Hawk, was abandoned because of mechanical problems.

He said there was not enough room for the group on the other helicopters, which were transporting bin Laden's body, other male captives and the commandos.



Future terrorists?

Ugly Duck
05-07-2011, 11:13 PM
The criticism wasn't about the policy (note reality).

Plenty of Repubs criticized the policy... here's a few to refresh your memory:

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." - Obama

"Obama's Pakistan policy could "potentially create a theocracy with nuclear weapons." - Hannity (then called the policy "frightening")

Fox News analyst Ralph Peters called Obama's Pakistan position "loonier than anything he's said about Iraq," adding: "So, we're going to invade the country through which we get our supplies -- that means the routes closed. We can't resupply them by air, and you're forcing the Pakistani military to fight us. This is crazy."

"All right, so, we're going to attack Pakistan. Poor Musharraf's going to get it on both ends if Barack's elected." - Limbaugh

"This country is never going to insert military forces to conduct a campaign against al Qaeda inside Pakistan without the permission of that country's government." - John Podhoretz, New York Post

patteeu
05-08-2011, 03:27 AM
Plenty of Repubs criticized the policy... here's a few to refresh your memory:

"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." - Obama

"Obama's Pakistan policy could "potentially create a theocracy with nuclear weapons." - Hannity (then called the policy "frightening")

Fox News analyst Ralph Peters called Obama's Pakistan position "loonier than anything he's said about Iraq," adding: "So, we're going to invade the country through which we get our supplies -- that means the routes closed. We can't resupply them by air, and you're forcing the Pakistani military to fight us. This is crazy."

"All right, so, we're going to attack Pakistan. Poor Musharraf's going to get it on both ends if Barack's elected." - Limbaugh

"This country is never going to insert military forces to conduct a campaign against al Qaeda inside Pakistan without the permission of that country's government." - John Podhoretz, New York Post

Hannity's is the only one that seems worthy of criticism here. The other three are contemplating an attack on Pakistan, rather than a covert operation. I stand corrected though on the point that some people criticized his policy.

BigMeatballDave
05-08-2011, 03:54 AM
Stupid fucking partisan bullshit.

CIA and special Ops began working on this well before Obama.

Ugly Duck
05-08-2011, 04:08 AM
Hannity's is the only one that seems worthy of criticism here. The other three are contemplating an attack on Pakistan, rather than a covert operation. I stand corrected though on the point that some people criticized his policy.

Wow! I salute you for standing corrected. Very reasonable of you.

P.S. The other three were contending that Obama's policy constituted an "attack on Pakistan." That wording was used to make his policy seem crazed & confused. Lucky for us all.... his policy KILLED BIN LADEN!!

The Mad Crapper
05-14-2011, 10:28 AM
LMAO at O-Bots. Gloating that B.O. sat on this intel since January 2011. I'm just curious why he didn't wait a little bit longer, closer to the election.

RNR
05-14-2011, 10:48 AM
Stupid ****ing partisan bullshit.

CIA and special Ops began working on this well before Obama.

No shit~

Frankie
05-14-2011, 12:47 PM
LMAO at O-Bots. Gloating that B.O. sat on this intel since January 2011. I'm just curious why he didn't wait a little bit longer, closer to the election.

O-Bots?!! :rolleyes:

Pot, meet Kettle. There's nobody, NOBODY, among the members of this forum who even comes close to the political robot that you are.

Check this thread as a reminder. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=245019 And while you are there, show us if you are capable of one thought by yourself by answering the question I asked you there.

Ugly Duck
05-14-2011, 07:26 PM
LMAO at O-Bots. I'm just curious why he didn't wait a little bit longer, closer to the election.

No need to be curious. He said he'd break with the Republican policy of asking permission from Pakistan, then he did exactly what he said he'd do.

http://lolpics.se/pics/19416.gif

Frankie
05-14-2011, 09:40 PM
No need to be curious. He said he'd break with the Republican policy of asking permission from Pakistan, then he did exactly what he said he'd do.



Sad Crap thinks Carl Rove is still in the WH.

Mr. Laz
05-14-2011, 10:16 PM
Sad Crap thinks Carl Rove is still in the WH.
Well the spirit of that evil bastard WILL be in the WH for a long time. It's going to decades to undo all the terrible shit that POS engineered from behind the throne.

hell the exception of fracking oil to clean water act should be enough to get Bush/chaney/rove thrown in jail. :cuss:

Bill Parcells
05-15-2011, 06:01 AM
O-Bots?!! :rolleyes:

Pot, meet Kettle. There's nobody, NOBODY, among the members of this forum who even comes close to the political robot that you are.

Check this thread as a reminder. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=245019 And while you are there, show us if you are capable of one thought by yourself by answering the question I asked you there.

No need to be curious. He said he'd break with the Republican policy of asking permission from Pakistan, then he did exactly what he said he'd do.

http://lolpics.se/pics/19416.gif

Sad Crap thinks Carl Rove is still in the WH.

Well the spirit of that evil bastard WILL be in the WH for a long time. It's going to decades to undo all the terrible shit that POS engineered from behind the throne.

hell the exception of fracking oil to clean water act should be enough to get Bush/chaney/rove thrown in jail. :cuss:

It seems you nut cases think Bush was worse than Bin Laden. pretty sad if you ask me, but I'm not surprised seeing who it's coming from.

Bill Parcells
05-15-2011, 06:05 AM
Stupid ****ing partisan bullshit.

CIA and special Ops began working on this well before Obama.

NO! that can't be! (Laz, Frankie, Ugly Duck)

I think these 3 would want the Pakistani ISS to do a special ops mission in Texas to kill President Bush. they would probably be dancing in front of their computers if that happened.

stevieray
05-15-2011, 07:48 PM
Well the spirit of that evil bastard WILL be in the WH for a long time. It's going to decades to undo all the terrible shit that POS engineered from behind the throne.



projection.

Frankie
05-15-2011, 09:48 PM
Well the spirit of that evil bastard WILL be in the WH for a long time. It's going to decades to undo all the terrible shit that POS engineered from behind the throne.

hell the exception of fracking oil to clean water act should be enough to get Bush/chaney/rove thrown in jail. :cuss:

You're fracking right. :thumb:

Ugly Duck
05-15-2011, 09:53 PM
NO! that can't be! (Laz, Frankie, Ugly Duck). I think these 3 would want the Pakistani ISS to do a special ops mission in Texas to kill President Bush. they would probably be dancing in front of their computers if that happened.

Oh noes.... it's BATSHIT CRAZY time!

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/G/m/M/3/michele-bachmann-nuts.jpg

Frankie
05-15-2011, 10:22 PM
Oh noes.... it's BATSHIT CRAZY time!

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/G/m/M/3/michele-bachmann-nuts.jpg

:LOL:LMAO

Frankie
05-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Oh noes.... it's BATSHIT CRAZY time!

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/G/m/M/3/michele-bachmann-nuts.jpg

High schooler challenges Michele Bachmann to Constitution showdown

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110513/us_yblog_thelookout/high-schooler-challenges-michelle-bachmann-to-constitution-showdown

Guess who will win the debate. :D

Bill Parcells
05-16-2011, 05:51 PM
Oh noes.... it's BATSHIT CRAZY time!

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/G/m/M/3/michele-bachmann-nuts.jpg

Yeah, you live in the most backward corrupt state in the union. and you love all your politicians, right?

And FTR having Franktard drool over one of your posts isn't necessarily flattering. I would be embarrassed if I was you..lol

RaiderH8r
05-16-2011, 07:31 PM
You're fracking right. :thumb:

The Clean Water Act never, NEVER, covered class 2 injection wells for HF, EPACT 2005 simply codified existing regulatory practice. Regulatory primacy has always been relegated to the states and they have their own regimes in place that meet or exceed the EPA standards for wastewater treatment of produced water. The lies regarding fluid and chemical migration through fracture zones is contemptable for its stupidity and there has never been a single instance of chemical migration through hydrofractures in the entire history of the practice of hydraulic fracturing. The Clinton administration's own Carol Browner, who was also Obama's environmental czar, wrote in 1995 that the practice of HF in coalbed methane wells is sound and poses no threat to USDW sources. The HF practice in question now pertains to shale formations that are thousands of feet deeper than CBM wells and therefor even more soundly contained.

In short the HF lie is a lie perpetuated by anti development, anti energy religious zealots hell bent on destroying standards of living, ways of life, and livelihoods of millions to achieve their own eco religious ends.

But never mind that, OBL is dead. FTW. Now Barry needs to go out and kill the next 5-10 zealots that are lining up to take OBL's place and truly start striking fear and doubt into the hearts of terrorists letting them know SEAL team 6 and others like them can truly hunt down these f'ers wherever they may be, knock on the door and put one through their eyehole and be gone before they know what hit them.

Frankie
05-16-2011, 10:00 PM
Yeah, you live in the most backward corrupt state in the union. and you love all your politicians, right?

And FTR having Franktard drool over one of your posts isn't necessarily flattering. I would be embarrassed if I was you..lol

"Franktard's" drooling over a witty post by a respected CP poster convincingly beats D2112-hole's routine defense of the CP's designated village idiot.

You have aligned yourself with an alcoholic, unthinking racist and a classless loser. One has to think you have at least a few characteristics in common with him. Maybe it would be easier for us to ask which trait you don't share with him. Ya think?

Bill Parcells
05-17-2011, 04:15 PM
"Franktard's" drooling over a witty post by a respected CP poster convincingly beats D2112-hole's routine defense of the CP's designated village idiot.

You have aligned yourself with an alcoholic, unthinking racist and a classless loser. One has to think you have at least a few characteristics in common with him. Maybe it would be easier for us to ask which trait you don't share with him. Ya think?

I have seen your picture. you look like a bumbling idiot. so your posting must not be a coincidence.

I can guarantee you would pee in your burka and wouldn't utter a word in my presence ;) so keep playing your internet persona. that of a buffoon/Idiot who keeps patting himself on the back while everybody sits back and points and laughs at you.

Frankie
05-17-2011, 06:02 PM
I have seen your picture. you look like a bumbling idiot. so your posting must not be a coincidence.

I can guarantee you would pee in your burka and wouldn't utter a word in my presence ;) so keep playing your internet persona. that of a buffoon/Idiot who keeps patting himself on the back while everybody sits back and points and laughs at you.

You are one 'Moby' short of a great white whale. Go back to chewing your booger.

go bowe
05-17-2011, 07:43 PM
I have seen your picture. you look like a bumbling idiot. so your posting must not be a coincidence.

I can guarantee you would pee in your burka and wouldn't utter a word in my presence ;) so keep playing your internet persona. that of a buffoon/Idiot who keeps patting himself on the back while everybody sits back and points and laughs at you.

:facepalm: oh noes, another internet tough guy...

are you kcjohnny in drag, or what?

go bowe
05-17-2011, 07:44 PM
You are one 'Moby' short of a great white whale. Go back to chewing your booger.
hey, be nice about great white whales...

i are one...

BucEyedPea
05-18-2011, 07:39 AM
I'd be all for that.

Short of war, assassinations of leaders is illegal as a foreign policy tool. Has the US declared that we're in a state of war with Libya? Nope. If Bush did this I am sure you would not agree. France is fomenting inside Libya and now the west is colluding with Sarkozy on it as backup. There was no natural uprising of Libyans, it was fomented internally by the west. I read Gaddaffi is actually popular but just has some opposition. This whole Libyan situation is nothing but a bunch of lies and an attempt to at Neo-Colonialization of Africa for her rich resources.

Obama is a NeoCon cut from the same cloth as Bush. Look at how the lefties support all the things they criticized Bush for on Iraq. Like I said when Bush was in power, he was never a true conservative... he was and remains an international progressive.

Some consistency in viewpoint is needed by the left.

mlyonsd
05-18-2011, 07:47 AM
I thought assassinations of leaders was made illegal? If Bush did this I am sure you would not agree.

Do ya think?

patteeu
05-18-2011, 07:50 AM
Obama is a NeoCon cut from the same cloth as Bush.

This is absurd.

BucEyedPea
05-18-2011, 07:50 AM
Do ya think?

Well, I just checked to see it was, and it is as well as against international law. Yes, I do think the left would be all over this if this happened under any Republican president.

BucEyedPea
05-18-2011, 07:53 AM
This is absurd.

That's only because you don't like him being categorized with you and your kind. Obama is a war monger. Libya bears this out.So this is a proper category for Obama now.

There is not much difference between the parties in FP. Only when one's party is not in the Oval office.

go bowe
05-18-2011, 09:35 AM
This is absurd.and that's being generous...

patteeu
05-18-2011, 09:47 AM
That's only because you don't like him being categorized with you and your kind. Obama is a war monger. Libya bears this out.So this is a proper category for Obama now.

There is not much difference between the parties in FP. Only when one's party is not in the Oval office.

There are many different reasons someone might decide to go to war. Here are a few:

To prevent a dictator from having the opportunity to support islamist radicals
To prevent a dictator from killing his own people
To pre-empt a threat that is gathering
To punish for a past offense
To improve your chances of getting re-elected
To protect Israel's national interest
To get revenge for an assassination attempt against your father
To finish the job your dad left undone
To enrich your war profiteering buddies
To divert attention from a domestic embarrassment
To obey the voice of God that you hear in your head

All of these motivations have been attributed to one of our last 3 presidents at one time or another. Some are legit and some are pretty silly. Do you seriously believe that Obama is motivated by the same foreign policy considerations that motivated GWBush? I don't.

Take their positions on Israel as just one aspect of their foreign policy philosophies. GWBush was one of the best friends/partners Israel ever had in the WH. Obama has a long history of being pro-palestinian and, from the POV of Israel, might be the most antagonistic POTUS in that small country's short history.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 12:12 AM
This is absurd.

Oh REALLY?

That's why Bill Kristol declares Obama ‘a born-again neo-con’ days after consulting with him on Libya policy (http://dailycaller.com/2011/03/30/bill-kristol-declares-obama-a-born-again-neo-con-days-after-consulting-with-him-on-libya-policy/) LMAO


Your beloved Weekly Standard editor. You need to knock off the denial pat. At least Kristol hasn't.

“He didn’t come to me for help, of course,” Kristol said. “I’m not going to acknowledge that. He came to me to make sure I was supporting his sound policies. Of course, since his sound policies are more like the policies people like me have been advocating for quite a while, I’m happy to support them. He’s a born-again neo-con.”

What’s the joke – they told me if I voted for McCain, we’d be going to war in a third Muslim country?” Kristol said. “I voted for McCain and we’re doing it.”


Viva la perpetual war! It's just like 1984!

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yIKxLr_AWj8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bill Parcells
05-22-2011, 06:58 AM
You are one 'Moby' short of a great white whale. Go back to chewing your booger.

:facepalm: oh noes, another internet tough guy...

are you kcjohnny in drag, or what?

Have you seen Frankie? I think any 6 year old off the street can bully him in real ife. (not internet fake life)seriously. lol..and I'm the internet tough guy? lol..just lol

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 09:36 AM
You never know where the next despot or maniacal heathen is going to emerge, Mr. Bewbies. For a time, Pol Pot was just another young dude studying radio electronics in Paris.

It's best to be watchful and ever alert for up-and-coming tyrannical, mass-murdering madmen.

FAX

http://www.iaza.com/work/110523C/iaza14759012991600.jpg

Frankie
05-22-2011, 10:46 AM
Have you seen Frankie? I think any 6 year old off the street can bully him in real ife.

I don't know if that's true. But if it takes the wit and the intelligence of a 6 year old then happily I'm quite safe from your feeble attempts at "bullying."

Now go back to licking your alcoholic boyfriend's scrotum.

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Fluh fluh Flunkie! Sand Muh- muh Monkey boy!

Frankie
05-22-2011, 10:52 AM
Fluh fluh Flunkie! Sand Muh- muh Monkey boy!

Speaking of your alcoholic boyfriend, D2112.....

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 10:54 AM
Speaking of your alcoholic boyfriend, D2112.....

http://www.iaza.com/work/110523C/iaza14759012991600.jpg

Frankie
05-22-2011, 11:08 AM
http://www.iaza.com/work/110523C/iaza14759012991600.jpg

So,.... sad Crap, you have not yet answered the question I asked you a couple of weeks ago about your reaction to Obama's "getting" OBL.

Oh, that's right, you have not gotten your talking points from the fringe RWNJs yet. My bad. For a brief moment I forgot that you have never posted a single political thought of your own here.

Now go hide behind D2112.

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 11:12 AM
I get all my talking points from Daily Koz. I have never posted a single political thought of my own here.

I am going to bury my nose in D2112's behind.

Burka Boy!

http://www.obamacounter.com/

boogblaster
05-22-2011, 11:37 AM
well the bin Laden family and the Bush related companies are in bussiness together .. guess that has a little to do wift it ....

Frankie
05-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Burka Boy!

http://www.obamacounter.com/

Changing my post is no answer to my question. But then we all know you are a pathetic, no-thought-of-your-own, drunken loser.

Now like I said go back and hide behind your defender D2112's skirt.

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 01:17 PM
Changing my post is no answer to my question


Your question is stupid and you are an imbecile.

go bowe
05-22-2011, 01:29 PM
Fluh fluh Flunkie! Sand Muh- muh Monkey boy!

good to see you back at work, crapster...

i miss you when you leave us all alone...

as for as your esoteric rhyming, it needs some work... :p :p :p

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 01:47 PM
good to see you back at work, crapster...

i miss you when you leave us all alone...

as for as your esoteric rhyming, it needs some work... :p :p :p

I'm giving you my heart and you want some fashion show.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9HrzY0hfPD0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pitt Gorilla
05-22-2011, 03:02 PM
Fluh fluh Flunkie! Sand Muh- muh Monkey boy!WTF?

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Anybody who thinks B.O. and his gang that couldn't shoot straight had anything to do with gathering the intel for this wacking is dumber than what was originally thought.

patteeu
05-22-2011, 05:14 PM
well the bin Laden family and the Bush related companies are in bussiness together .. guess that has a little to do wift it ....

The bin Laden family is huge and the majority of them, including those involved in the family business, disowned Osama a long time ago so I doubt it. Obama was never a part of the family business.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 05:56 PM
Your question is stupid and you are an imbecile.

Just humor us. Here I ask again. What did you think of Obama as POTUS and his balls of steel regarding the OBL hunt?

I know you wanted very much to start a thread complimenting BO, but you forgot. Here's your chance man. Indulge us with your vast political knowledge, your cerebral incite, and analytical abilities. We are all waiting.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 06:01 PM
WTF?

He is the resident racist on this forum and has been getting away with his repetitive bigotry. But meh! If the mods don't wanna take care of him, eventually he'll hang himself with his own comments. I still have belief in this forum.

patteeu
05-22-2011, 06:03 PM
Just humor us. Here I ask again. What did you think of Obama as POTUS and his balls of steel regarding the OBL hunt?

I know you wanted very much to start a thread complimenting BO, but you forgot. Here's your chance man. Indulge us with your vast political knowledge, your cerebral incite, and analytical abilities. We are all waiting.

What makes you think Obama didn't just defer this decision to his underlings in the military, intel, and diplomatic areas like he's deferred on so many other issues (eg Pelosi and Reid on healthcare)?

I give Obama credit for being in the big chair when the decade-long hunt came to a conclusion and for not making the wrong decision, but he has to share credit with a lot of others.

mlyonsd
05-22-2011, 06:08 PM
What makes you think Obama didn't just defer this decision to his underlings in the military, intel, and diplomatic areas like he's deferred on so many other issues (eg Pelosi and Reid on healthcare)?

I give Obama credit for being in the big chair when the decade-long hunt came to a conclusion and for not making the wrong decision, but he has to share credit with a lot of others.Frankie probably still believes Obama was screaming over the mic "THERE HE IS..SHOOT HIM...DIE YOU MF".

Don't ruin it for him.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 06:24 PM
What makes you think Obama didn't just defer this decision to his underlings in the military, intel, and diplomatic areas like he's deferred on so many other issues (eg Pelosi and Reid on healthcare)?

I give Obama credit for being in the big chair when the decade-long hunt came to a conclusion and for not making the wrong decision, but he has to share credit with a lot of others.

I have no problem with the "credit" YOU give the POTUS. I'm waiting for credit from Sad Crap who has filled this forum with hateful and damn near racist threads about Obama. There's point to be made here.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 06:27 PM
Frankie probably still believes Obama was screaming over the mic "THERE HE IS..SHOOT HIM...DIE YOU MF".

Don't ruin it for him.

No. Obviously I don't think that way. But he didn't say he didn't think about Osama anymore either. He remembered to take him out when he got his first chance knowing full well that had the mission gone awry he could pretty much say goodbye to re-election. In political terms it did take strength and balls of steel on his part.

Bill Parcells
05-22-2011, 06:46 PM
I don't know if that's true. But if it takes the wit and the intelligence of a 6 year old then happily I'm quite safe from your feeble attempts at "bullying."

Now go back to licking your alcoholic boyfriend's scrotum.

Frankie, seriously. I have more respect in this forum than you do. if you think otherwise, start a poll. I dare you.

Bill Parcells
05-22-2011, 06:47 PM
He is the resident racist on this forum and has been getting away with his repetitive bigotry. But meh! If the mods don't wanna take care of him, eventually he'll hang himself with his own comments. I still have belief in this forum.

And you are the resident idiot in this forum. everybody knows it, but you are in denial.

go bowe
05-22-2011, 06:57 PM
Frankie, seriously. I have more respect in this forum than you do. if you think otherwise, start a poll. I dare you.

you have more respect in dc than frankie?

setting a pretty low bar for yourself, ainchya? :p :p :p

go bowe
05-22-2011, 06:58 PM
And you are the resident idiot in this forum. everybody knows it, but you are in denial.

ahem...

Bill Parcells
05-22-2011, 07:00 PM
you have more respect in dc than frankie?

setting a pretty low bar for yourself, ainchya? :p :p :p

LOL Go bowe, you just pawned me


ROFL

Bill Parcells
05-22-2011, 07:01 PM
ahem...

(BURP)

The Mad Crapper
05-22-2011, 07:11 PM
Be careful, he will hit you with his purse.

Flunkie takes it in the ass.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 08:26 PM
Frankie, seriously. I have more respect in this forum than you do. if you think otherwise, start a poll. I dare you.

ROFL You are as dumb as you are Sad Crab's scrotum licking boy friend. The debate was not that of respect. It was about your sub-6-year-old intelligence. Your very reply here supports my point about your low IQ in that it had nothing to do with the subject.

That said, I am not in desperate need for acceptance like you are. If that were the case I would never have posted comments that the predominantly conservative posters here would have issues with. I would instead pretend like I'm a mod and try to harass you with it like you have, I suppose to compensate for your small dick. Or, in case of your boyfriend I would stop thinking by myself and splash this forum with RW talking points to get cheap support.

Last point: why are you asking ME to start a poll? Are you even too dumb to know how to do it yourself? And what's the use of a poll anyway? The RW on this forum have a history of circle jerks anyway. Suppose you ask around and learn how to post a poll. And suppose you got the higher number. What will it prove? It will not prove respect. It will only show how many of the RWNJs are pathetic enough to participate in another circle jerk - this time in the form of a bogus poll - just to "beat up on Frankie", because they cannot do it by their individual selves.

You are a pathetic loser either way.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Be careful, he will hit you with his purse.

Flunkie takes it in the ass.

Oooh the collective IQ of 69 are entertaining us with their wit.

I hope tonight you sleep satisfied in each other's arms that you said something here that was funny, be it only to yourselves.

Phobia
05-22-2011, 08:49 PM
TMC is on a lengthy vacation. Racial slurs aren't tolerated here. Not even in D.C.

|Zach|
05-22-2011, 08:50 PM
Another TMC meltdown.

Shocking. lol

Lets all have a moment of silence for patteeu's best friend.

Frankie
05-22-2011, 08:55 PM
Another TMC meltdown.

Shocking. lol

Lets all have a moment of silence for patteeu's best friend.

Actually 2112's best friend. Though I have been somewhat perplexed by Pat's zealous support of Sad crap. D2112 is the one who brought Sad Crap aboard on this forum in the first place, and he is the first who always came to his aid every time he shat himself.

|Zach|
05-22-2011, 09:00 PM
Actually 2112's best friend. Though I have been somewhat perplexed by Pat's zealous support of Sad crap. D2112 is the one who brought Sad Crap aboard on this forum in the first place, and he is the first who always came to his aid every time he shat himself.

He supports anyone who is disliked so he can be contrarian, he pretty much admitted that part. What they say or what pieces of shit they are matters little.

go bowe
05-22-2011, 10:06 PM
He supports anyone who is disliked so he can be contrarian, he pretty much admitted that part. What they say or what pieces of shit they are matters little.

you're suffering from jealous envy, you need help /ss

patteeu
05-23-2011, 07:29 AM
In political terms it did take strength and balls of steel on his part.

LOL

stevieray
05-23-2011, 07:31 AM
LOL

the sensationalism is nauseating.

patteeu
05-23-2011, 07:33 AM
He supports anyone who is disliked so he can be contrarian, he pretty much admitted that part. What they say or what pieces of shit they are matters little.

Please don't lie about me, Zach. I support people who deserve support whether I agree with them or not. I support them because they deserve support on the merits not "so that [*I*] can be contrarian". You ought to be smart enough to understand the difference, although it's not clear that you do.

If I did it to be contrarian, I'd have a lot of other opportunities to take sides against the majority of the board, but I don't. The reason I don't is because I don't do it to be contrarian, I do it because there's a reason why the majority is wrong in the situations where I speak up against it.

mlyonsd
05-23-2011, 08:18 AM
No. Obviously I don't think that way. But he didn't say he didn't think about Osama anymore either. He remembered to take him out when he got his first chance knowing full well that had the mission gone awry he could pretty much say goodbye to re-election. In political terms it did take strength and balls of steel on his part.

He would take much less of a hit politically for trying and failing than for the mission details to leak out and not attempting it.

I'm glad that he did it, he should be commended for doing it.

|Zach|
05-23-2011, 11:29 AM
Please don't lie about me, Zach. I support people who deserve support whether I agree with them or not. I support them because they deserve support on the merits not "so that [*I*] can be contrarian". You ought to be smart enough to understand the difference, although it's not clear that you do.

If I did it to be contrarian, I'd have a lot of other opportunities to take sides against the majority of the board, but I don't. The reason I don't is because I don't do it to be contrarian, I do it because there's a reason why the majority is wrong in the situations where I speak up against it.

I think it is great you associate yourself so closely with low life racist pieces of shit.

Don't ever change.

Frankie
05-23-2011, 12:08 PM
Please don't lie about me, Zach. I support people who deserve support whether I agree with them or not. I support them because they deserve support on the merits not "so that [*I*] can be contrarian". You ought to be smart enough to understand the difference, although it's not clear that you do.

Pat, my man, I'm sooo disapointed in you. I was actually hoping you supported Sad Crap just to be contrarian.

patteeu
05-23-2011, 12:52 PM
I think it is great you associate yourself so closely with low life racist pieces of shit.

Don't ever change.

I don't really approve of the way you associate yourself with and sometimes actively engage in accusing people of racism for non racist acts.

Frankie
05-23-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't really approve of the way you associate yourself with and sometimes actively engage in accusing people of racism for non racist acts.

Racism exists, no matter how much you want to deny it. In fact I'll go further and say we are all racists at heart to different degrees. The difference is some of us recognize it as an instinct that we can evolve out of by THINKING and self analyzing, while others wear theirs as a badge of pride and call it bravado.

mlyonsd
05-23-2011, 01:37 PM
Racism exists, no matter how much you want to deny it. In fact I'll go further and say we are all racists at heart to different degrees. The difference is some of us recognize it as an instinct that we can evolve out of by THINKING and self analyzing, while others wear theirs as a badge of pride and call it bravado.

One more difference is some look at a comment and see racism where none exists.

I'm not saying that's the case in your whole ridiculous tirade with TMC but it is a fact.

Frankie
05-23-2011, 01:41 PM
One more difference is some look at a comment and see racism where none exists.

I'm not saying that's the case in your whole ridiculous tirade with TMC but it is a fact.

Sad Crap was posting racist stuff routinely. Via PMs too, BTW.