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View Full Version : Nat'l Security Using Waterboarding to Hunt Terrorists....now on CD


mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 02:47 PM
By Tim Ross (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/tim-ross/) 7:02PM BST 02 May 2011 Follow Tim Ross on Twitter (http://twitter.com/TimRossDT)

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/guantanamo-bay-wikileaks-files/8477128/Guantanamo-Bay-detainee-file-on-Khalid-Shaykh-Muhammad-US9KU-010024DP.html) (KSM), who was repeatedly subjected to methods including “waterboarding” and stress positions, provided the CIA with the name of bin Laden (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/religion-obituaries/8487348/Osama-bin-Laden.html)’s personal courier, according to US officials.

A second source – also an al-Qaeda “leader” held at Guantanamo Bay – then confirmed the courier’s identity, sparking an intense manhunt that resulted in the dramatic final raid.

Secret documents seen by The Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/guantanamo-bay-wikileaks-files/8476672/WikiLeaks-The-Guantanamo-files-database.html) disclose that this second source – the terrorist operations chief, Abu Faraj al-Libi (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/guantanamo-bay-wikileaks-files/8477143/Guantanamo-Bay-detainee-file-on-Abu-Farajal-Libi-US9LY-010017DP.html) – played a key role in finding “safe havens” for bin Laden and lived in the military town where he was finally found.

The killing of the world’s most wanted man as a direct result of information obtained from Guantanamo detainees such as KSM will reignite the debate over whether torture is a legitimate interrogation technique in the "war on terror". Both KSM and al-Libi were subjected to harsh techniques during their interrogations in CIA prisons.

Amnesty International has already warned that the killing of bin Laden must not be used as evidence that torture is “justifiable”.

Bin Laden went into hiding shortly after the 9/11 attacks and the White House has been criticised for a series of failures that meant he evaded capture for almost 10 years.

During his time as a fugitive, bin Laden’s communications with the outside world were handled by a network of trusted couriers, who carried letters to and from senior al-Qaeda commanders. Using a telephone or the internet would have been too risky as electronic communications were monitored by the US and its allies.

But the CIA revealed that American spies have also been watching many of bin Laden’s couriers for years.

“One courier in particular had our constant attention,” a senior US government official said. “We identified him as both a protege of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi.”

American spies learned his name four years ago; two years later they pinpointed the general region where he was hiding. Still, it was not until August when they tracked him to the compound in Abbotabad.

Secret US government files on the Guantanamo detainees disclose that al-Libi (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/guantanamo-bay-wikileaks-files/8477143/Guantanamo-Bay-detainee-file-on-Abu-Farajal-Libi-US9LY-010017DP.html) had several dealings with one key courier for bin Laden, who may be the same aide that led the US to the compound where the al-Qaeda leader was killed.

Al-Libi’s Guantanamo file (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/guantanamo-bay-wikileaks-files/8477143/Guantanamo-Bay-detainee-file-on-Abu-Farajal-Libi-US9LY-010017DP.html), dated 10 September 2008, states: “In July 2003, detainee [al-Libi] received a letter from UBL’s designated courier, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan, requesting detainee take on the responsibility of collecting donations, organizing travel, and distributing funds to families in Pakistan.

“UBL stated detainee would be the official messenger between UBL and others in Pakistan.”

In mid-2003, al-Libi “moved his family to Abbottabad, PK and worked between Abbottabad and Peshawar,” according to the file.

In 2001 and 2003, he arranged “save havens” for bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is currently still at large.

It may not be a coincidence that the “safe haven” where bin Laden was finally caught was in the Pakistani garrison town where al-Libi lived in 2003.

Al-Libi’s file states that he had several further attempted contacts with the courier and set up a shop front to be used as a “drop point” for the meetings in April 2005, one month before he was captured. The courier's name does not appear in KSM's Guantanamo file.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488436/WikiLeaks-Osama-bin-Laden-killed-after-tip-offs-from-Guantanamo.html

Please oh please let this be true.

mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 02:48 PM
I wonder if this is one of the reasons Obama has flipped on shutting GITMO down?

orange
05-02-2011, 02:56 PM
They got the name in 2007, well after the waterboarding supposedly stopped. Isn't that right?

Donger
05-02-2011, 03:00 PM
I wonder if this is one of the reasons Obama has flipped on shutting GITMO down?

Ah yes. The difference between being a candidate for POTUS and being POTUS.

BucEyedPea
05-02-2011, 03:03 PM
This is surfacing all over the right wing sites about this courier and waterboarding....as if they couldn't get it some other way.

mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 03:35 PM
They got the name in 2007, well after the waterboarding supposedly stopped. Isn't that right?

Don't know, hopefully the facts will eventually come out so we know if he gave up the info during 'torture' or after, when he was probably thinking please don't do that to me again.

dirk digler
05-02-2011, 03:42 PM
They got the name in 2007, well after the waterboarding supposedly stopped. Isn't that right?

KSM and others gave a nickname and they found out the courier's real name 4 years ago but not in Gitmo.

A new lead emerged when post-9/11 detainees gave investigators a glimpse into the al Qaeda chief's inner circle, the official said. During questioning, detainees repeatedly mentioned the nickname of a man they said was one of the few couriers bin Laden trusted.

That was the beginning of what President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser described as a painstaking process.

"From the nickname, we tried to find out his real name," a senior U.S. official familiar with the operation said. "It was classic espionage and intel work."
Investigators knew the courier -- a protege of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- was "important," because a number of detainees held out on providing information about him, the senior U.S. official said.

U.S. intelligence uncovered the courier's identity four years ago "from a different part of the world," the senior U.S. official said. He declined to say where.

It took two more years to identify where the courier and his brother operated in Pakistan.

mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 06:35 PM
KSM and others gave a nickname and they found out the courier's real name 4 years ago but not in Gitmo.

Double or nothing Obama acted on intelligience at least partly gathered at GITMO.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

The sweet addiction of partisanship has corrupted somebody's moral center here. I guess it must be mine.

Donger
05-02-2011, 06:49 PM
KSM and others gave a nickname and they found out the courier's real name 4 years ago but not in Gitmo.

It seems that KSM was at those "black" CIA prisons in Eastern Europe when he squealed. I thought the leftist hated those even more than Gitmo?

Donger
05-02-2011, 06:51 PM
Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

The sweet addiction of partisanship has corrupted somebody's moral center here. I guess it must be mine.

You would prefer harsh language? How would you have extracted such information from those who didn't want to give it?

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 06:52 PM
You would prefer harsh language?

In a stroke, you've once again missed the point. I'm going to do us both a favor and assume you're not being serious.

Have at, my friend.

Donger
05-02-2011, 06:54 PM
In a stroke, you've once against missed the point. I'm going to do us both a favor and assume you're not being serious.

Have at, my friend.

I'm being completely serious. I'll ask again:

How would you have extracted such information from those who didn't want to give it?

I'm asking for your opinion.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 06:58 PM
I'm being completely serious. I'll ask again:

How would you have extracted such information from those who didn't want to give it?

I'm asking for your opinion.

That's not remotely close to the point I was making.

You're attempting to make a point off something I said on a separate matter.

When you're serious, and can construe my argument properly, I'll post when I feel like it.

Until then, and I'm serious, have at it.

stevieray
05-02-2011, 07:00 PM
shows that this op has been going on for years and finally came to fruition.

lots of hours put in for a tremendous payoff.


major props to all involved behind the scenes.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:02 PM
That's not remotely close to the point I was making.

You're attempting to make a point off something I said on a separate matter.

When you're serious, and can construe my argument properly, I'll post when I feel like it.

Until then, and I'm serious, have at it.

Okay. What point were you trying to make with this?

Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

It seems rather clear that you have some aversion to and repulsion with using EITs. Is that incorrect?

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 07:04 PM
Okay. What point were you trying to make with this?

Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

It seems rather clear that you have some aversion to and repulsion with using EITs. Is that incorrect?

You're going full retard.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:05 PM
You're going full retard.

I'm just asking you to explain your point. If you don't have one, that's fine.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 07:08 PM
I'm just asking you to explain your point.

I'm telling you to go do your thing and have fun.

orange
05-02-2011, 07:10 PM
"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/02/2843803/one-unwary-phone-call-led-us-to.html#ixzz1LF9MQCgU

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:10 PM
I'm telling you to go do your thing and have fun.

Does it bother you? It bothers you that us interrogating KSM (and others) directly led to to this victory?

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:11 PM
"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/02/2843803/one-unwary-phone-call-led-us-to.html#ixzz1LF9MQCgU

Standard interrogation (with the threat of returning to EITs never far from detainees mind).

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 07:11 PM
Does it bother you?

Not bothered. Bored.

Holding your hand bores the tar out of me. I'm waiting for mylonsd to return to his thread.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:13 PM
Not bothered. Bored.

Holding your hand bores the tar out of me. I'm waiting for mylonsd to return to his thread.

You're adorable, but a swing and a miss.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 07:14 PM
You're adorable, but a swing and a miss.

Once again, have at.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Once again, have at.

I can understand your reticence.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 07:17 PM
I can understand your reticence.

k

orange
05-02-2011, 07:17 PM
Standard interrogation (with the threat of returning to EITs never far from detainees mind).

al-Libi was never waterboarded.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:18 PM
al-Libi was never waterboarded.

I was referring to KSM.

Donger
05-02-2011, 07:20 PM
al-Libi was never waterboarded.

Oh, and perhaps he was:

Libi was held at CIA “black sites,” where he was subjected to harsh questioning, which the George W. Bush administration called “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/al-qaeda-couriers-provided-the-trail-that-led-to-bin-laden/2011/05/02/AFNSH5ZF_story.html

mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 08:44 PM
Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

The sweet addiction of partisanship has corrupted somebody's moral center here. I guess it must be mine.

Ok, I'm back.

No, gathering actionable intelligience without torture is of course the best scenario. Do you have a point?

And my editorial comment at the end of the thread starter was really intended as hoping the actual clues that led to the death of OBL were gathered at GITMO, waterboarding or not.

You remember GITMO, the place Obama campaigned to close and all of a sudden had decided serves a real purpose.

mlyonsd
05-02-2011, 09:14 PM
I'm on record as saying Obama should be given credit for pulling off the operation the right way.

Any Obama supporter want to admit Bush's handling of terrorists made it possible?

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 09:45 PM
No, gathering actionable intelligience without torture is of course the best scenario. Do you have a point?

My point was regarding your apparent hoping that waterboarding was used, because, I don't know, you've got a hard-on for torture or something.

But then you addressed that concern:

And my editorial comment at the end of the thread starter was really intended as hoping the actual clues that led to the death of OBL were gathered at GITMO

So, again, have our moral centers distorted to the point where we're actively hoping that we must torture or we must maintain offshore prisons that fly in the face of the Constitution and do us a shit ton of damage in world opinion?

I can understand tolerating it. But hoping for it seems bizarre.

Perhaps you can explain your enthusiasm in some way that doesn't make you look like a partisan hack or torture porn aficionado?

ROYC75
05-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

The sweet addiction of partisanship has corrupted somebody's moral center here. I guess it must be mine.

Haven't you heard that all is fair in Love and War ?:shrug:

It's what I have heard. I think the enemy does this to us. As I have said before, it it means saving hundreds, thousands of innocent American lives or troops, I have no problem with it.

You wish to play nice in war games you end up losing a lot of lives or the war.

vailpass
05-02-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm telling you to go do your thing and have fun.

LMAO Girlfriend you crazy!

jjjayb
05-02-2011, 10:29 PM
This is surfacing all over the right wing sites about this courier and waterboarding....as if they couldn't get it some other way.

All they had to do was ask nicely.

ROYC75
05-02-2011, 10:40 PM
All they had to do was ask nicely.

Agreed, ( to liberals ) back in 2001, it was , Can you please tell us where Osama Bin Laden is? (terrorist )No!

Oh come on, Pretty Please ? ( terrorist ) No, I said No. Die you ******* infidels. You Americans are dirty rotten scum, all of you die and go to hell.

Oh, come on, we are not bad people, we are nice, we just want to be nice while you kill us, Please tell us where he is ?

Seriously, what the hell do you Liberals expect out of Americans and our soldiers at war ?

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 11:04 PM
It's what I have heard. I think the enemy does this to us. As I have said before, it it means saving hundreds, thousands of innocent American lives or troops, I have no problem with it.

You wish to play nice in war games you end up losing a lot of lives or the war.

I can understand somebody feeling that methods like torture are necessary, and tolerating it as a result. I still disagree with it, but I understand why some people might.

But what may have occurred in the OP is mylonsd actively hoping that torture was what produced actionable information, or at the very least, an extralegal, offshore prison where prisoners are deprived of their rights.

Direckshun
05-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Agreed, ( to liberals ) back in 2001, it was , Can you please tell us where Osama Bin Laden is? (terrorist )No!

The idea that our options are (a.) table manners, or (b.) torture, is comical at best.

T-post Tom
05-02-2011, 11:31 PM
Waterboarding is so 1990's. When it comes to torture, Ashton Kutcher movies are the new black.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 12:34 AM
Something weird about you going "please oh please let this be true," because gathering actionable intelligence without needing torture is such a terrible thing, I suppose.

Please oh please tell me we MUST waterboard people! PLEASE.

The sweet addiction of partisanship has corrupted somebody's moral center here. I guess it must be mine.

If you pray for John Paul II, your moral center may be miraculously cured.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 12:38 AM
"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/02/2843803/one-unwary-phone-call-led-us-to.html#ixzz1LF9MQCgU

It's long been believed by some that waterboarding gave KSM the opportunity to satisfy his conscience by first resisting and then, after the treatment became unbearable, becoming a compliant prisoner. In that scenario, everything he gives up after he was "broken" is attributable to waterboarding. Absent the harsh techniques, he'd still believe that resistance was a matter of honor.

ROYC75
05-03-2011, 12:40 AM
The idea that our options are (a.) table manners, or (b.) torture, is comical at best.

So when is it acceptable ?

As I said, if they have valuable info that can lead to saving hundreds or thousands of lives, when do you stop having a beer with them and hanging out ?

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 07:55 AM
So, again, have our moral centers distorted to the point where we're actively hoping that we must torture or we must maintain offshore prisons that fly in the face of the Constitution and do us a shit ton of damage in world opinion?

I can understand tolerating it. But hoping for it seems bizarre.

Perhaps you can explain your enthusiasm in some way that doesn't make you look like a partisan hack or torture porn aficionado?

FTR I don't really care what you think of my moral center. I understand you have a right to your opinion but it doesn't affect me in any way.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 08:08 AM
I can understand somebody feeling that methods like torture are necessary, and tolerating it as a result. I still disagree with it, but I understand why some people might.

But what may have occurred in the OP is mylonsd actively hoping that torture was what produced actionable information, or at the very least, an extralegal, offshore prison where prisoners are deprived of their rights.

I'd suggest you start worrying about Obama's moral center since he's the one actually running GITMO now and acting on intelligience gathered there.

stevieray
05-03-2011, 08:12 AM
FTR I don't really care what you think of my moral center. I understand you have a right to your opinion but it doesn't affect me in any way.

you should be ashamed that I have to be ashamed for you.

/defleckshun

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 08:24 AM
Double or nothing Obama acted on intelligience at least partly gathered at GITMO.

Possibly. There is a lot of information out there some saying the intel, they only gave his nickname, came from the black sites and others saying Gitmo.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 08:37 AM
Possibly. There is a lot of information out there some saying the intel, they only gave his nickname, came from the black sites and others saying Gitmo.

Yeah it still isn't clear to me either. I do consider a black site just about the same as GITMO though.

Donger
05-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Possibly. There is a lot of information out there some saying the intel, they only gave his nickname, came from the black sites and others saying Gitmo.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/03/bin.laden.courier/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

(CNN) -- A diplomatic source told CNN that the courier who was in close contact with Osama bin Laden and who eventually led the United States to him was a Kuwaiti named Abu Ahmad.

U.S. officials have said that when the identity of the courier -- who they have not named -- was established in 2007 the U.S. began a path to the house in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where the al Qaeda leader was living.

Analysis of assessments of detainees held at the U.S. Navy's detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, include several mentions of a man by the name of Abu Ahmad al Kuwaiti, who was reportedly close to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- also a Kuwaiti.

The information on the detainee assessments came from U.S. Defense Department documents published by WikiLeaks.

Chiefshrink
05-03-2011, 09:06 AM
"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/02/2843803/one-unwary-phone-call-led-us-to.html#ixzz1LF9MQCgU

FYP !!!

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XDYkz4727HY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Chiefshrink
05-03-2011, 09:13 AM
So when is it acceptable ?

As I said, if they have valuable info that can lead to saving hundreds or thousands of lives, when do you stop having a beer with them and hanging out ?

Precisely Roy:thumb:

"Mis-directed" gets his best 'weed' from Pakistan. How dare we cut off his partying connections with his "best buds"(pardon the pun) terrorists.

Party on Wayne !!!

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 09:18 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/03/bin.laden.courier/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

(CNN) -- A diplomatic source told CNN that the courier who was in close contact with Osama bin Laden and who eventually led the United States to him was a Kuwaiti named Abu Ahmad.

U.S. officials have said that when the identity of the courier -- who they have not named -- was established in 2007 the U.S. began a path to the house in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where the al Qaeda leader was living.

Analysis of assessments of detainees held at the U.S. Navy's detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, include several mentions of a man by the name of Abu Ahmad al Kuwaiti, who was reportedly close to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- also a Kuwaiti.

The information on the detainee assessments came from U.S. Defense Department documents published by WikiLeaks.

That wasn't his real name it was his nom de guerre

Donger
05-03-2011, 09:44 AM
That wasn't his real name it was his nom de guerre

Please re-read and note the Gitmo reference.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 09:55 AM
Please re-read and note the Gitmo reference.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

Shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, detainees in the CIA's secret prison network told interrogators about an important courier with the nom de guerre Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti who was close to bin Laden. After the CIA captured al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he confirmed knowing al-Kuwaiti but denied he had anything to do with al-Qaida.

Donger
05-03-2011, 09:59 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

Shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, detainees in the CIA's secret prison network told interrogators about an important courier with the nom de guerre Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti who was close to bin Laden. After the CIA captured al-Qaida's No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he confirmed knowing al-Kuwaiti but denied he had anything to do with al-Qaida.

Both places works for me. I wonder if there was any hand-wringing by Bush opponents when the black sites and Gitmo were outed?

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 10:06 AM
Both places works for me. I wonder if there was any hand-wringing by Bush opponents when the black sites and Gitmo were outed?

Just like I said there is a lot of conflicting information out there right now.

Donger
05-03-2011, 10:07 AM
Just like I said there is a lot of conflicting information out there right now.

It's not necessarily conflicting. It's more likely that we extracted intel from people at both places.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 10:12 AM
It's not necessarily conflicting. It's more likely that we extracted intel from people at both places.

True but I was more or less talking about when they first got the information, I believe they got it at the black sites. I heard something yesterday that some of the intel they also got from the prison at Bagram Air Force Base

patteeu
05-03-2011, 10:50 AM
True but I was more or less talking about when they first got the information, I believe they got it at the black sites. I heard something yesterday that some of the intel they also got from the prison at Bagram Air Force Base

Anything obtained directly through waterboarding came from the black sites. No waterboarding has taken place at Gitmo. But I think this hunt has relied on essential information collected from both sites as well as other sources.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 11:26 AM
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.html

Andrew Sullivan

The Big Lie: Torture Got Bin Laden

What really broke the case? From the NYT: Operation Cannonball, a [2005] bureaucratic reshuffling ... placed more C.I.A. case officers on the ground in Pakistan and Afghanistan. With more agents in the field, the C.I.A. finally got the courier’s family name. With that, they turned to one of their greatest investigative tools — the National Security Agency began intercepting telephone calls and e-mail messages between the man’s family and anyone inside Pakistan. From there they got his full name. Last July, Pakistani agents working for the C.I.A. spotted him driving his vehicle near Peshawar.Old-fashioned, painstaking, labor-intensive intelligence work. The American way. We never needed to stoop to bin Laden's standards to get bin Laden. We needed merely to follow our long-tested humane procedures.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 12:06 PM
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.html

Andrew Sullivan

The Big Lie: Torture Got Bin Laden

What really broke the case? From the NYT: Old-fashioned, painstaking, labor-intensive intelligence work. The American way. We never needed to stoop to bin Laden's standards to get bin Laden. We needed merely to follow our long-tested humane procedures.

We never did stoop to bin Laden's standards and it wouldn't have mattered how many CIA agents we had on the ground doing old-fashioned intelligence work if we hadn't had the tip about the courier in the first place. Any such solution would have been a different solution than the one we just saw bear fruit. You can't just start in the middle of the investigative process.

Jaric
05-03-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm being completely serious. I'll ask again:

How would you have extracted such information from those who didn't want to give it?

I'm asking for your opinion.

Well, if you won't tell me what I want to know, I'LL JUST ASK YOU A SECOND TIME!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Brock
05-03-2011, 12:41 PM
Sounds like "harsh interrogation" works.

Dave Lane
05-03-2011, 12:48 PM
I'm on record as saying Obama should be given credit for pulling off the operation the right way.

Any Obama supporter want to admit Bush's handling of terrorists made it possible?

I'll admit it is possible. That good enough. I do think there are more effective methods than torture but if it's your preference I understand.

orange
05-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Sounds like "harsh interrogation" works.

Well, I suppose...

"Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/02/2843803/one-unwary-phone-call-led-us-to.html#ixzz1LF9MQCgU

Standard interrogation (with the threat of returning to EITs never far from detainees mind).

It's long been believed by some that waterboarding gave KSM the opportunity to satisfy his conscience by first resisting and then, after the treatment became unbearable, becoming a compliant prisoner. In that scenario, everything he gives up after he was "broken" is attributable to waterboarding. Absent the harsh techniques, he'd still believe that resistance was a matter of honor.


... If you accept that the clear fact that torture didn't provide the information somehow proves that torture provided the information.

http://www.circularlogic.com/circular.gif

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 12:55 PM
We never did stoop to bin Laden's standards and it wouldn't have mattered how many CIA agents we had on the ground doing old-fashioned intelligence work if we hadn't had the tip about the courier in the first place. Any such solution would have been a different solution than the one we just saw bear fruit. You can't just start in the middle of the investigative process.

You would have to read the whole piece to understand his point but I didn't feel like copying and pasting it all at the time but here you go.

The Big Lie: Torture Got Bin Laden (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.html)



<article> Dave Weigel predicts (http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/05/02/but-is-it-good-for-obama.aspx) Republican spin:
Expect to hear more (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/266200/paging-marc-thiessen-shannen-coffin?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4dbed2b5b0f7fcfa,0) about this report that the information that led to the tailing of bin Laden's courier, and eventually to his death, was acquired in interrogations that Obama ended once he took office. It may not be Republican candidates pointing this out. They don't need to. George W. Bush has a considerable amen chorus in the press, with former staffers like Marc Thiessen, Michael Gerson, and John Yoo writing regular columns about how the 43rd president was right.
Predict it? It's already become a meme. Last night, O'Reilly simply said "What about the waterboarding?" before moving on to other issues. A military reader writes how Fox is leading with the torture lie:
Driving right now - flipped on Fox News Channel out of curiosity on Sirius. Since 07h30, they have been openly encouraging waterboarding and have at least 6 times that I've noticed said that the reason we got OBL is directly attributable to what had been revealed during waterboarding sessions. I am, in two words, fucking disgusted.
Here's Andrew Malcolm (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-dead.html):
That previous president authorized enhanced interrogation techniques which convinced folks like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to give up, among many other things, the name of their top-secret courier, now deceased.
Leave aside the horrifying fact that Republicans, seeking to score some ownership of this triumph, would look to torture as their contribution. Why not the beefed up on-the-ground intelligence from 2005 on? That's Bush's legacy that Obama built on. Besides, there is no evidence that it played any part whatsoever. From the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp=&pagewanted=print):
Prisoners in American custody told stories of a trusted courier. When the Americans ran the man’s pseudonym past two top-level detainees — the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed; and Al Qaeda’s operational chief, Abu Faraj al-Libi — the men claimed never to have heard his name. That raised suspicions among interrogators that the two detainees were lying and that the courier probably was an important figure.
My italics. So in torturing these two men, interrogators got nothing of substance. In fact, it was only by assuming that these men were lying under torture that the investigation continued. It was subsequently, during normal interrogations that KSM gave us a central clue (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_hunt_for_bin_laden):
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
To repeat: in the one instance we now clearly know about, the CIA is telling us that torture gave them lies. Which they were. Only when traditional interrogation was used did we get the actual names of the couriers. Marcy Wheeler looks (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/02/the-osama-bin-laden-trail-shows-waterboarding-didnt-work/) at the current data set:
We can conclude that either KSM shielded the courier’s identity entirely until close to 2007, or he told his interrogators that there was a courier who might be protecting bin Laden early in his detention but they were never able to force him to give the courier’s true name or his location, at least not until three or four years after the waterboarding of KSM ended. That’s either a sign of the rank incompetence of KSM’s interrogators (that is, that they missed the significance of a courier protecting OBL), or a sign he was able to withstand whatever treatment they used with him.
Follow up here (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/03/tracking-the-courier-through-hassan-ghul/). Jane Mayer's thoughts. (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/05/bin-laden-and-torture.html) Brian Beutler focuses (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/how-republicans-are-claiming-credit-for-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.php) on the flaws in the AP story torture apologists latched onto. Meanwhile, Rumsfeld himself (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1) has denied that torture played any role in finding bin Laden:
“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”
What really broke the case? From the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp=&pagewanted=print):
Operation Cannonball, a [2005] bureaucratic reshuffling ... placed more C.I.A. case officers on the ground in Pakistan and Afghanistan. With more agents in the field, the C.I.A. finally got the courier’s family name. With that, they turned to one of their greatest investigative tools — the National Security Agency began intercepting telephone calls and e-mail messages between the man’s family and anyone inside Pakistan. From there they got his full name. Last July, Pakistani agents working for the C.I.A. spotted him driving his vehicle near Peshawar.
Old-fashioned, painstaking, labor-intensive intelligence work. The American way. We never needed to stoop to bin Laden's standards to get bin Laden. We needed merely to follow our long-tested humane procedures.

</article>

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 01:26 PM
FTR I don't really care what you think of my moral center. I understand you have a right to your opinion but it doesn't affect me in any way.

Dodge.

I'd suggest you start worrying about Obama's moral center since he's the one actually running GITMO now and acting on intelligience gathered there.

Dodge.

Again, mlyonsd, answer the question:

What exactly are you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

vailpass
05-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Good Lord Dirk. It's nice that you feel that way but planet Earth is blue and there's nothing you can do.

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 01:33 PM
Jane Meyer's thoughts are worth their weight in gold on the subject.

vailpass
05-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Jane Meyer's thoughts are worth their weight in gold on the subject.

Is she hot?

patteeu
05-03-2011, 01:54 PM
Well, I suppose...








... If you accept that the clear fact that torture didn't provide the information somehow proves that torture provided the information.

http://www.circularlogic.com/circular.gif

You can't un-waterboard someone. It's not circular logic. It's like giving some credit for your healthy lawn this year to the fact that you aerated it last fall.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 02:05 PM
Dodge.



Dodge.

Again, mlyonsd, answer the question:

What exactly are you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

Why is it so important to you?

blaise
05-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Why is it so important to you?

He thinks you're some kind of partisan hack, and we all know Direckshun is just very opposed to partisanship.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 02:16 PM
He thinks you're some kind of partisan hack, and we all know Direckshun is just very opposed to partisanship.

Well he's right, I am partisan. I've been over the top in my ridicule of Obama for totally mishandling the murder of OBL.

blaise
05-03-2011, 02:26 PM
Well he's right, I am partisan. I've been over the top in my ridicule of Obama for totally mishandling the murder of OBL.

First Bradley Manning was punished for whistleblowing and now Osama is murdered. What is the world coming to?

blaise
05-03-2011, 02:27 PM
You guys are adorable.

Swing and a miss.

Have at.

Go Chiefs.

- D

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 02:33 PM
Well he's right, I am partisan. I've been over the top in my ridicule of Obama for totally mishandling the murder of OBL.

You should be ashamed of yourself

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 02:45 PM
You should be ashamed of yourself

Oh no, I've lost you too? Maybe I should start an I'm leaving thread.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 02:49 PM
Oh no, I've lost you too? Maybe I should start an I'm leaving thread.

Hell no...not until I get the beer you owe me :)

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 02:52 PM
Hell no...not until I get the beer you owe me :)

Hey that reminds me....did you answer my double or nothing question?

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:04 PM
FTR I don't really care what you think of my moral center. I understand you have a right to your opinion but it doesn't affect me in any way.you have a moral center?

i thought you were a rightie...

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Precisely Roy:thumb:

"Mis-directed" gets his best 'weed' from Pakistan. How dare we cut off his partying connections with his "best buds"(pardon the pun) terrorists.

Party on Wayne !!!*perk* weed? *perk*

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 03:11 PM
Hey that reminds me....did you answer my double or nothing question?

Probably not because I don't remember..

What was the question?

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Probably not because I don't remember..

What was the question?

Double or nothing Obama acted on intelligience at least partly gathered at GITMO.

I suppose we could wait to see how the first bet goes. Although I think you are ready to concede. :p

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 03:19 PM
I suppose we could wait to see how the first bet goes. Although I think you are ready to concede. :p

Duh I did answer it..sort of

Possibly. There is a lot of information out there some saying the intel, they only gave his nickname, came from the black sites and others saying Gitmo.

Palin has started doing more speeches lately I think she is about to announce...what a glorious day that will be

:D

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:20 PM
you have a moral center?

i thought you were a rightie...

Well it seems I have one but it has supposedly been corrupted.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:21 PM
Duh I did answer it..sort of



Palin has started doing more speeches lately I think she is about to announce...what a glorious day that will be

:D

I think now that she see's Obama running her kind of foreign policy she won't see the need to save the country.

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:22 PM
Well it seems I have one but it has supposedly been corrupted.
is that something like a computer file that's gone bad?

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:23 PM
I think now that she see's Obama running her kind of foreign policy she won't see the need to save the country.O.M.G.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:25 PM
is that something like a computer file that's gone bad?I dunno but it seems to be important to Direckshun.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 03:29 PM
I think now that she see's Obama running her kind of foreign policy she won't see the need to save the country.

I would suck her dick if she doesn't run

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:34 PM
regarding gitmo, while it might not be strictly legal, no-one has thought of a better idea for holding terrorists and jihadists...

i'm not totally persuaded that waterboarding produced the courier's nickname, but i probably would have considered using it if un-enhanced interrogation techniques reached the point that they were no longer producing any useful intel...

goes against my grain, legally and even morally on some level, but terrorists in our hands need to give up what they know, one way or the other...

blaise
05-03-2011, 03:36 PM
regarding gitmo, while it might not be strictly legal, no-one has thought of a better idea for holding terrorists and jihadists...

i'm not totally persuaded that waterboarding produced the courier's nickname, but i probably would have considered using it if un-enhanced interrogation techniques reached the point that they were no longer producing any useful intel...

goes against my grain, legally and even morally on some level, but terrorists in our hands need to give up what they know, one way or the other...

I think that was evident before Obama took office. That's why the notion that it would just be closed was a farce from the start.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:37 PM
regarding gitmo, while it might not be strictly legal, no-one has thought of a better idea for holding terrorists and jihadists...

i'm not totally persuaded that waterboarding produced the courier's nickname, but i probably would have considered using it if un-enhanced interrogation techniques reached the point that they were no longer producing any useful intel...

goes against my grain, legally and even morally on some level, but terrorists in our hands need to give up what they know, one way or the other...

Soldiers fighting under a flag is one thing. Terrorists are a completely different argument.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
I think that was evident before Obama took office. That's why the notion that it would just be closed was a farce from the start.

We actually have a better place IMHO and that is the detention facility at Bagram Air Force Base.

1. Out of site out of mind
2. Not located anywhere near the United States
3. Located on the field of battle

And if they are caught within our borders trying to commit terror acts they need to be in the Criminal Justice system.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 03:50 PM
...
According to a U.S. official, the U.S. first learned of the nickname in 2003. The information came out of the CIA's interrogation program, though officials insist it did not come from waterboarding.

The following year, a detainee said bin Laden trusted the courier to carry his messages. The claim was run by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, key architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, and he downplayed the courier's importance, claiming he was retired and out of the business. Another detainee also claimed not to know him.

However, the strength of the denials was seen as a red flag by the CIA since other detainees were consistently claiming the courier had a close relationship with bin Laden.

Intelligence officials eventually traced the courier to northern Pakistan and later to the specific compound where it turned out bin Laden was hiding.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/03/official-guards-bin-laden-compound-time-raid/

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:50 PM
Soldiers fighting under a flag is one thing. Terrorists are a completely different argument.yep...

they certainly are handled differently than regular soldiers under the geneva conventions...

on the one hand we are a nation that respects the rule of law and rights of "persons" under our constitution and our sense of justice for all...

we hold sacred our god-given rights according to our political history...

on the other hand, terrorists must be defeated and killed, like our buddy obama, er osama...

sometimes when you are at war (particularly against terrorists), you just have to bend the rules a bit, even if it gets you in trouble; it's that important to our real and undisputed national interests...

it's a troubling quandry, i'm just glad that i don't have to make decisions like that...

BucEyedPea
05-03-2011, 03:52 PM
Soldiers fighting under a flag is one thing. Terrorists are a completely different argument.

That's really just an arbitrary someone made to make them non-persons with no natural human rights. Declare war officially on terrorism would end this distinction, which imo, is dangerous. I don't want them in the US, but that's not the issue with me. It's detaining them endlessly without charge and that's illegal under our Constitution which applies to areas we have jurisdiction. Better to declare war and make them POWs instead.

go bowe
05-03-2011, 03:56 PM
We actually have a better place IMHO and that is the detention facility at Bagram Air Force Base.

1. Out of site out of mind
2. Not located anywhere near the United States
3. Located on the field of battle

And if they are caught within our borders trying to commit terror acts they need to be in the Criminal Justice system.our criminal justice system is designed for criminals, not sub-human madmen (where's ladairis these days?)...

new anti-terrorism laws have helped, but from the pov of successful prosecution and subsequent incarceration, the criminal justice system is not reliable enough...

too many "rights" that hinder collection of intelligence and/or hinder successful prosecutions...

(i can't believe i'm saying these things...)

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 04:17 PM
our criminal justice system is designed for criminals, not sub-human madmen (where's ladairis these days?)...

new anti-terrorism laws have helped, but from the pov of successful prosecution and subsequent incarceration, the criminal justice system is not reliable enough...

too many "rights" that hinder collection of intelligence and/or hinder successful prosecutions...

(i can't believe i'm saying these things...)

If they are caught in our borders trying or did commit a terror act it is no different than catching a murderer and putting them on trial.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 04:54 PM
We actually have a better place IMHO and that is the detention facility at Bagram Air Force Base.

1. Out of site out of mind
2. Not located anywhere near the United States
3. Located on the field of battle

And if they are caught within our borders trying to commit terror acts they need to be in the Criminal Justice system.

You left out a few:

4. Convenient access for terrorists should they decide it would be fun to attack it.
5. Close to sympathizers who can shelter you if you escape.
6. No more legally advantageous than Gitmo.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 05:17 PM
That's really just an arbitrary someone made to make them non-persons with no natural human rights. Declare war officially on terrorism would end this distinction, which imo, is dangerous. I don't want them in the US, but that's not the issue with me. It's detaining them endlessly without charge and that's illegal under our Constitution which applies to areas we have jurisdiction. Better to declare war and make them POWs instead.

I fail to see what that gains you.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 05:21 PM
our criminal justice system is designed for criminals, not sub-human madmen (where's ladairis these days?)...

new anti-terrorism laws have helped, but from the pov of successful prosecution and subsequent incarceration, the criminal justice system is not reliable enough...

too many "rights" that hinder collection of intelligence and/or hinder successful prosecutions...

(i can't believe i'm saying these things...)

I'm glad to see you're coming around to Cheney, Obama, Holder, Palin's point of view.

(that was fun mentioning you five in the same sentence)

go bowe
05-03-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm glad to see you're coming around to Cheney, Obama, Holder, Palin's point of view.

(that was fun mentioning you five in the same sentence)
:cuss::cuss::cuss:

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 08:19 PM
Why is it so important to you?

Because we both know the answer.

You started the topic. Man up. Don't backpedal from you've said.

Answer the question:

What exactly are you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 08:33 PM
Because we both know the answer.

You started the topic. Man up. Don't backpedal from you've said.

Answer the question:

I haven't backpedaled away from anything.

Good god man I'm giddy we killed OBL. I've praised Obama for doing so. I'm thrilled he'll do what it takes to protect the population.

Tell me what you need me to say so you're happy.

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 08:34 PM
I haven't backpedaled away from anything.

Good god man I'm giddy we killed OBL. I've praised Obama for doing so. I'm thrilled he'll do what it takes to protect the population.

Tell me what you need me to say so you're happy.

What were you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 08:37 PM
What were you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?What were you desperately hoping I wanted to be true? Come on, fork it over. If you're going to accuse me do so without the ambiguity.

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 08:42 PM
What were you desperately hoping I wanted to be true?

Dodge.

What were you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

Are you not going to answer the question?

Do you not see what the comment you edited in to the OP comes across as saying?

Or are we not owning up to anything we type/say.

Seriously, I'll leave the topic be. Just let me know which way we're going with this.

Donger
05-03-2011, 08:44 PM
Or are we not owning up to anything we type/say.

LMAO

Murder.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 08:50 PM
Dodge.

What were you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

Are you not going to answer the question?

Do you not see what the comment you edited in to the OP comes across as saying?

Or are we not owning up to anything we type/say.

Seriously, I'll leave the topic be. Just let me know which way we're going with this.

I'm desperately hoping that people who slandered the Bush administration with accusations of torture and secret, illegal, assassination rings will now recognize how wrong they've been all along and how lucky they are to have had the Bush/Cheney administration charting the course in the war on terror instead of some namby pamby eco-nut like Al Gore.

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 08:51 PM
I'm desperately hoping that people who slandered the Bush administration with accusations of torture and secret, illegal, assassination rings will now recognize how wrong they've been all along and how lucky they are to have had the Bush/Cheney administration charting the course in the war on terror instead of some namby pamby eco-nut like Al Gore.

Pat to the rescue once again.

Mylonsd will be steamlining some rep to you shortly.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 08:52 PM
You left out a few:

4. Convenient access for terrorists should they decide it would be fun to attack it.
5. Close to sympathizers who can shelter you if you escape.
6. No more legally advantageous than Gitmo.

I don't think they have had any kind of major attack at Bagram since it is pretty huge and thousands of troops guarding it.

And they have housed detainees there for years

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm desperately hoping that people who slandered the Bush administration with accusations of torture and secret, illegal, assassination rings will now recognize how wrong they've been all along and how lucky they are to have had the Bush/Cheney administration charting the course in the war on terror instead of some namby pamby eco-nut like Al Gore.

If Al Gore was POTUS we would have saved trillions in dollars not going to Iraq and would have had Bin Laden years ago

And global warming would have been stopped

;)

patteeu
05-03-2011, 08:55 PM
I don't think they have had any kind of major attack at Bagram since it is pretty huge and thousands of troops guarding it.

And they have housed detainees there for years

High value guys like KSM aren't there, but I'm pretty sure there have been attacks on Bagram anyway.

patteeu
05-03-2011, 08:57 PM
If Al Gore was POTUS we would have saved trillions in dollars not going to Iraq and would have had Bin Laden years ago

And global warming would have been stopped

;)

We'd have pulled out of the middle east and we'd all be riding mules and tailgating at Chiefs games with donkey carts.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 09:04 PM
High value guys like KSM aren't there, but I'm pretty sure there have been attacks on Bagram anyway.

Of course they had attacks but no breaches that I could find.

IIRC all the high value targets go to Bagram now

The most secretive of roughly 20 temporary sites is run by the military's elite counterterrorism unit, the Joint Special Operations Command, at Bagram Air Base. It's responsible for questioning high-value targets, the detainees suspected of top roles in the Taliban, al-Qaida or other militant groups.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 09:13 PM
Dodge.

What were you hoping so desperately to be true in the OP?

Are you not going to answer the question?

Do you not see what the comment you edited in to the OP comes across as saying?

Or are we not owning up to anything we type/say.

Seriously, I'll leave the topic be. Just let me know which way we're going with this.
Please oh please let this be true.

This is the feather up your butt?

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 09:16 PM
This is the feather up your butt?

Are you going to answer my question or not?

I swear to god, I'll drop it. I just want to know if you'll answer the question.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 09:25 PM
Are you going to answer my question or not?

I swear to god, I'll drop it. I just want to know if you'll answer the question.Then I guess you'll drop it because I completely addressed your original question in post #32.

Man up, you want me to say more. Tell me what it is and I'll agree or disagree. I think everyone here will attest to my honesty.

Direckshun
05-03-2011, 09:28 PM
Then I guess you'll drop it because I completely addressed your original question in post #32.

The OP read as if you were desperately hoping ("please oh please let this be true") that waterboarding was used in obtaining OBL.

Am I reading that wrong?

patteeu
05-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Of course they had attacks but no breaches that I could find.

IIRC all the high value targets go to Bagram now

There are no high value guys like KSM now. We kill them instead of capture them.

dirk digler
05-03-2011, 09:42 PM
Then I guess you'll drop it because I completely addressed your original question in post #32.

Man up, you want me to say more. Tell me what it is and I'll agree or disagree. I think everyone here will attest to my honesty.

He is wanting to know why you were really really hoping that waterboarding caused KSM and others to spill the beans..

Is it because you wanted Bush to be right and that this makes Obama look wrong or is it some other reason?

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 09:57 PM
The OP read as if you were desperately hoping ("please oh please let this be true") that waterboarding was used in obtaining OBL.

Am I reading that wrong?

Yes.

go bowe
05-03-2011, 09:57 PM
I haven't backpedaled away from anything.

Good god man I'm giddy we killed OBL. I've praised Obama for doing so. I'm thrilled he'll do what it takes to protect the population.

Tell me what you need me to say so you're happy.tell me i'm pretty and that you love me...

patteeu
05-03-2011, 09:58 PM
tell me i'm pretty and that you love me...

:LOL:

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 10:02 PM
He is wanting to know why you were really really hoping that waterboarding caused KSM and others to spill the beans..

Is it because you wanted Bush to be right and that this makes Obama look wrong or is it some other reason?

I'm guessing that's what he wants me to say but I'd rather he come straight out and ask.

My thinking is anyone accusing me of being morally corrupt should make their case rather than dilly around the question.

mlyonsd
05-03-2011, 10:04 PM
tell me i'm pretty and that you love me...**SMACK**

Pitt Gorilla
05-04-2011, 09:11 AM
Yes.What was the "please oh please" part regarding?

ROYC75
05-04-2011, 09:16 AM
What was the "please oh please" part regarding?

Maybe it was the fact that Bush & Co. took a lot of slack from the loony left over enhanced interrogations ?

Maybe ?:shrug:

dirk digler
05-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Maybe it was the fact that Bush & Co. took a lot of slack from the loony left over enhanced interrogations ?

Maybe ?:shrug:

Do you think killing Bin Laden and the possible nugget they received from EI is the best use case for using EI?

ROYC75
05-04-2011, 09:39 AM
Do you think killing Bin Laden and the possible nugget they received from EI is the best use case for using EI?

I have no problem at all with it if it means saving hundreds, thousands of innocent lives,especially American lives.

As I have said before, it's been done to Americans during a time of war.

The days of asking pretty please with a cherry on top are over.

dirk digler
05-04-2011, 09:48 AM
I have no problem at all with it if it means saving hundreds, thousands of innocent lives,especially American lives.

As I have said before, it's been done to Americans during a time of war.

The days of asking pretty please with a cherry on top are over.

That is not what I asked.

The whole idea of waterboarding\EI is to get actionable intel in a timely manner. In this case neither happened or they would have found him in 2003.

ROYC75
05-04-2011, 10:00 AM
That is not what I asked.

The whole idea of waterboarding\EI is to get actionable intel in a timely manner. In this case neither happened or they would have found him in 2003.

Really, so the info we got, we were suppose to throw it away, it served no value ?:hmmm:

Hardly, just as police interrogations, investigations, sometimes it takes longer to get the criminal that originally first thought.Same principal here, it just took longer.

I have no regret of what took place to bring forth the people we got for justice.

Now to torture someone for the sake of doing so, look at some of the other 3rd world countries, NK, ME,crap for that matter, China. But never mind them, it's the USA that we must be better. We can do anything we want as long as we ask, politely.

Nice guys finish last, a lot.