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View Full Version : Obama DCers weigh in on going after AQ without Pakistani permission:


Ugly Duck
05-08-2011, 03:57 AM
Dirk recently opened the old thread "Bush Admin Passed On Chance To Raid Meeting Of Al Qaida Leaders" Published: July 8, 2007 WASHINGTON, July 7 — "A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials. The target was a meeting of Al Qaeda’s leaders that intelligence officials thought included Ayman al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden’s top deputy and the man believed to run the terrorist group’s operations."

Then he posted: I am glad we finally have POTUS with the balls big enough to pull off a raid in our ally Pakistan land and not even tell them. Unlike Bush who chickened out because he didn't want to offend them. Don't you agree Donger?

I pulled DCer reactions to the planned Obama-type raid that the Bush admin refused to execute. We are all lucky that Obama has more daring & hutzpah than these guys:

This sounds like the Bush administration choosing to not piss off an "ally" by launching an attack within said ally's country.

I'm all for going after Al Qaeda, but this could have potentially started another war. You don't just go invade someone's country looking for terrorists like that.

That would be an unacceptable violation of the sovereignty of a friendly nation.... I'm hoping we'd all have a problem with that.... Bottom line: It's Pakistan's call, and we can't violate the sovereignty of a friendly nation.

The US is balancing the good we get out of the (Pakistan) relationship with the bad and the limitations it puts on our actions in that region.


If the mission was comprimised, ended up in a much bigger fight then expected, or ended up with a downed aircraft or something it would cause problems. At best it would dry up all support from the Musharaf government.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=165571

HolyHandgernade
05-08-2011, 04:30 AM
I think it actually put teeth into the Bush Doctrine. Maybe next time the next country knows not to play this shell game with us anymore. If we couldn't trust them as an "ally", that's on that country, not us. I don't care how much posturing the said country does, if the U.S felt strongly enough this was the safest course of action, I don't think that country wants us to set a new course of action of demonstrating why and pushing us towards deciding whether said country was actually harboring terrorists.

That's why Pakistan can complain all it wants, but in the end won't do jack. The U.S. And Obama Administration knew this to make a calculated risk worth it. In one stroke, we told Pakistan, with tongue in cheek, "Thanks for your support. Next time, you better start minding you p's and q's who's really in charge and whether you would rather be on the receiving end of billions in aide or on the business end of what our defense program can do with it."

redsurfer11
05-08-2011, 07:23 AM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

HolyHandgernade
05-08-2011, 07:29 AM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

I know in the movies its always perfect weather and the crack team is ready to go at a moment's notice, but in the real world, you actually try to gather as much information as you can, plan for the right season, and train often and methodically so it will hopefully go off without a hitch. Seal Team 6 represents a significant investment and I don't think the military reacts whimsically in the face of such a detailed and daunting task.

cdcox
05-08-2011, 07:33 AM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

They have been gathering intelligence on the compound and watching it for 9 mos, but never had confirmation that he was there. It was around a 50-50 chance that OBL was there.

bsp4444
05-08-2011, 07:47 AM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

Horrible post.

orange
05-08-2011, 07:50 AM
... or he wanted to play it for Political points?

Please explain. Why would he put it off until after the election? You make no sense.

Pasta Giant Meatball
05-08-2011, 07:51 AM
Horrible post.

Not the first and won't be the last of one clouded by political bias.

banyon
05-08-2011, 08:24 AM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

Uh, political points would have been October 2012.

notorious
05-08-2011, 08:48 AM
Obama did the right thing.

Get off his back.

I swear that if Obama cured Cancer people would complain about how he did it.

mlyonsd
05-08-2011, 09:13 AM
You highlighted the wrong part.

Dirk recently opened the old thread "Bush Admin Passed On Chance To Raid Meeting Of Al Qaida Leaders" Published: July 8, 2007 WASHINGTON, July 7 ó "A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistanís tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials. The target was a meeting of Al Qaedaís leaders that intelligence officials thought included Ayman al-Zawahri, Osama bin Ladenís top deputy and the man believed to run the terrorist groupís operations."


Since none of us were there and know all the details debating the size of ones "balls" is just plain stupid and immature.

cdcox
05-08-2011, 09:38 AM
Obama did the right thing.

Get off his back.

I swear that if Obama cured Cancer people would complain about how he did it.

Cancer was cured in the 1950s. The government has just kept it around to get rid of political enemies and to keep all the sheeple in line.

Ugly Duck
05-08-2011, 09:51 AM
You highlighted the wrong part. (Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan)

The risk obviously was pissing off Pakistan - if they thought it was "snatch & grab" that was too risky they cudda targeted a missile on the house. They missed a chance to nail the top generals of AQ cuz they were too timid to offend Pakistan. Candidate Obama announced that he would not exhibit such sensitivity & was thoroughly blasted by the Right Wing for his policy. The contrast between the Republican & the Obama policies is best illustrated by the gaping hole in bin Laden's forehead.

BucEyedPea
05-08-2011, 09:59 AM
The risk obviously was pissing off Pakistan - if they thought it was "snatch & grab" that was too risky they cudda targeted a missile on the house. They missed a chance to nail the top generals of AQ cuz they were too timid to offend Pakistan. Candidate Obama announced that he would not exhibit such sensitivity & was thoroughly blasted by the Right Wing for his policy. The contrast between the Republican & the Obama policies is best illustrated by the gaping hole in bin Laden's forehead.

Yeah, Obama/Panetta assassinated a suspect, according to the designation given BL by our FBI. I thought you guys were for putting these guys on trial?

Anyhow, Ayman al-Zawahri is the real operational master-mind of AQ—not binLaden. Bin Laden is more a figurehead. ( not saying I care if he's dead though)

As far as Pakistan goes, there is the seen and the unseen. We will never know if there was someone in Pakistan who knew about the operation because it would not be in Pakistan, or America's favor to have the information broad public issue for good reasons. I have a hard time believing 4 or so helicopters were undetected from Jalalabad to that town in Pakistan. Per what I read they have a pretty good detection system due to their considering India a threat.

Dave Lane
05-08-2011, 10:02 AM
I am certain the helicopters where undetected.

BucEyedPea
05-08-2011, 10:03 AM
I am certain the helicopters where undetected.

Proof? Link?

notorious
05-08-2011, 10:10 AM
Cancer was cured in the 1950s. The government has just kept it around to get rid of political enemies and to keep all the sheeple in line.


It about time you came around. :D

banyon
05-08-2011, 10:12 AM
Proof? Link?

Attack on Bin Laden Used Stealthy Helicopter That Had Been a Secret
By CHRISTOPHER DREW
Published: May 5, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06helicopter.html

The assault team that killed Osama bin Laden sneaked up on his compound in radar-evading helicopters that had never been discussed publicly by the United States government, aviation analysts said Thursday.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2011/0506-helicopter/0506-web-HELICOPTER.png

The commandos blew up one of the helicopters after it was damaged in a hard landing, but news photographs of the surviving tail section reveal modifications to muffle noise and reduce the chances of detection by radar.

The stealth features, similar to those used on advanced fighter jets and bombers, help explain how two of the helicopters sped undetected through Pakistani air defenses before reaching the Bin Laden compound in Abbottabad. The use of the specially equipped helicopters also underscores the extent to which American officials wanted to get to Bin Laden without tipping off Pakistani leaders.

Analysts said the raid was a rare case in which stealth aircraft, devised for conventional warfare during the cold war, became critical to fighting terrorism.

Military and intelligence agencies have refused to comment about the use of stealth aircraft in this raid. But since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the special forces have spared no expense in developing technology to hunt terrorists, and aviation experts said the debris from the damaged helicopter provided further evidence of that.

Leon E. Panetta, the C.I.A. director, has said that two Black Hawk helicopters carried about 25 Navy Seal members to the compound, where they killed Bin Laden and three other people in an operation that lasted nearly 40 minutes.

But several analysts and executives in the helicopter industry said the rear section that was left behind looked nothing like the tail of a regular Black Hawk, a popular midsize helicopter made by Sikorsky. Rather, they said, it appeared that the Black Hawks had been modified to incorporate some of the features of a proposed stealth helicopter that the Pentagon canceled in 2004.

“They would have learned an awful lot from that, and a lot of it would have been relevant to a program like this,” said Richard L. Aboulafia, an aviation analyst at the Teal Group in Fairfax, Va.

Mr. Aboulafia said the changes appeared to include the addition of special coatings to the skin to absorb radar beams and the replacement of sharp edges on the helicopter with curved ones. The gentler curves could scatter the reflections of other radar beams in too many directions for an air-defense system to put together a coherent picture of the plane, he said.

Bill Sweetman, the editor of a military trade publication owned by Aviation Week, reported that the damaged helicopter appeared to have five or six blades in its tail rotor, instead of the four in a standard Black Hawk. That could have allowed operators to slow the rotor speed and reduce the familiar chop-chop sound that most helicopters make.

A cover on the rotor that looks like a dishpan or a hubcap in the news photographs may have also helped reduce so-called radar signature of the craft, the analysts said.

Lawmakers who were briefed on the mission said the damaged helicopter had not malfunctioned, as initially described by senior administration officials. Instead, they said, it got caught in an air vortex caused by higher-than-expected temperatures and the high compound walls, which blocked the downwash of the rotor blades.

As a result, the helicopter lost its lift power while hovering over the yard and had to make a hard landing, clipping one of the walls with its tail. Some of the Seal members later tried to destroy the craft, presumably to hide the secret stealth components, before boarding larger backup helicopters that carried them to Afghanistan.

Mr. Aboulafia and Mr. Sweetman both said it was harder to quiet a helicopter than a winged plane, given all the whirling blades.

It was not clear whether the special forces had used the stealth helicopters in any earlier raids in Afghanistan, Iraq or Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Indications that stealth features were added to the helicopters suggest an extension of a technology that was created to protect American fighter jets and bombers from sophisticated air defenses in countries like Russia and China.

The top stealth fighter, the F-22, has never been flown in combat. The long-range B-2 bombers have been used sparingly, including a recent bombing run that destroyed an airfield in Libya.

Mr. Aboulafia said the latest modifications seemed similar to plans for the stealthy Comanche helicopter, which were canceled in 2004 after billions of dollars in cost overruns. Those plans also arose during the cold war. But with the lack of anti-aircraft threats in Iraq and Afghanistan, Army officials decided that full-scale production of stealth copters was not worth the cost.

“Stealth never made sense in an Afghan context,” Mr. Aboulafia said, “unless you were also looking at the Pakistan dimension.”

Some analysts wondered whether the C.I.A. might have also used a stealthy drone to gather intelligence before the raid on Bin Laden’s compound and possibly to monitor the attack.

In addition to satellite photographs, the special forces rely on Predator and Reaper drones in Iraq and Afghanistan to provide video showing how many people are living in insurgent compounds and their patterns of activity. But the Predators and Reapers would be easy for almost any air-defense system to track.

The Pentagon announced in late 2009 that it was testing a bat-winged stealth drone, the RQ-170 Sentinel, in Afghanistan, and it was quickly dubbed the Beast of Kandahar. Military officials have not mentioned it publicly since then, and they would not say this week whether it had been involved in the hunt for Bin Laden.
A version of this article appeared in print on May 6, 2011, on page A14 of the New York edition with the headline: Attack on Bin Laden Used Stealthy Helicopter That Had Been a Secret.

banyon
05-08-2011, 10:16 AM
wait... It didn't appear on lewrockwell.

And Thomas DiLorenzo is writing a book about how it didn't happen.

notorious
05-08-2011, 11:28 AM
I'm not surprised. They developed the Commanche helicopter to replace the Apache and it had a similar rotor blade setup.

They ended up canceling the Commanche project but I'm am sure they found ways to apply that tech on existing equipment.

go bowe
05-08-2011, 01:11 PM
You highlighted the wrong part.



Since none of us were there and know all the details debating the size of ones "balls" is just plain stupid and immature.stupid and immature?

a. this is chiefs planet;

b. it's fun;

c. this is chiefs planet...

mlyonsd
05-08-2011, 01:22 PM
stupid and immature?

a. this is chiefs planet;

b. it's fun;

c. this is chiefs planet...

Yeah I forget that a lot. Reading and comprehending an article isn't a prerequisite for posting here.

ClevelandBronco
05-08-2011, 01:40 PM
**** you, waterbrain. I still think it was a stupid thing to do.

But stupid decisions in the hope of reelection are pretty much all I expect from the pussy in chief.

Ugly Duck
05-08-2011, 01:58 PM
I still think it was a stupid thing to do. But stupid decisions in the hope of reelection are pretty much all I expect from the pussy in chief.

The swiftboaters are out in force all over the radio, BB's & TV:

"John Kerry was not a war hero - his Purple Hearts were from self-inflicted wounds! President Obama did not order a successful raid to kill the world's #1 terrorist - he merely murdered a homeless religious man! Osama was a Job-Creator working on his dream of developing the bullet-proof eye, and the anti-business President cut those entrepreneurial aspirations short!"

ClevelandBronco
05-08-2011, 02:12 PM
The swiftboaters are out in force all over the radio, BB's & TV:

"John Kerry was not a war hero - his Purple Hearts were from self-inflicted wounds! President Obama did not order a successful raid to kill the world's #1 terrorist - he merely murdered a homeless religious man! Osama was a Job-Creator working on his dream of developing the bullet-proof eye, and the anti-business President cut those entrepreneurial aspirations short!"

Kiss my dick.

orange
05-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Osama was a Job-Creator working on his dream of developing the bullet-proof eye, and the anti-business President cut those entrepreneurial aspirations short!"

It's a shame how many amazing breakthroughs fall by the wayside during the product-testing phase.

go bowe
05-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Kiss my dick.

is it pretty? :p :p :p

Pitt Gorilla
05-08-2011, 02:29 PM
**** you, waterbrain. I still think it was a stupid thing to do.

But stupid decisions in the hope of reelection are pretty much all I expect from the pussy in chief.Really?

Direckshun
05-08-2011, 04:06 PM
"Pussy in chief."

We love it.

Signed,

Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan & Libya

P.S. You've got a purty mouth.

vailpass
05-08-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm not surprised. They developed the Commanche helicopter to replace the Apache and it had a similar rotor blade setup.

They ended up canceling the Commanche project but I'm am sure they found ways to apply that tech on existing equipment.

Can you believe the racist US military naming those birds of war Apache and Commanche? They could have called those helicopters "DrunkNLazy" or "MarginalizedByWhiteMan" but no, they had to slur an entire group of people with those hateful monikers.

vailpass
05-08-2011, 04:15 PM
"Pussy in chief."

We love it.

Signed,

Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan & Libya

P.S. You've got a purty mouth.

Cato is that you? You finish my laundry yet? You better not have over-starched my shirts this time.

Direckshun
05-08-2011, 04:40 PM
Amusing thread, UD. But nothing new.

You only need to look at Republican ideas for healthcare reform going back to the 90s.

Then look how they react now when most of their ideas have been adopted.

It's the way people who think and act politically behave.

prhom
05-08-2011, 04:47 PM
Why was there a 9 month delay to get OBL? They knew where he was last August. Was it because Obama was indecisive or he wanted to play it for Political points?

Maybe because we could learn a lot about what was going on within AQ by simply observing the compound for a while? It's the same reason we don't arrest and imprison every drug-lord we find either. Gaining extensive knowledge of the AQ network is more valuable than killing bin Laden.

Secondly, I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to see if any Pakistani officials were interacting with him while he was there too. Judging by the fact that they did the raid in secret I'll bet they collected some pretty damning evidence that more than a few people in the Pakistani government knew bin Laden was there.

Ugly Duck
05-08-2011, 05:14 PM
You only need to look at Republican ideas for healthcare reform going back to the 90s. Then look how they react now when most of their ideas have been adopted.


I totally hear you! Nixon & Reagan are both socialists by today's RW definition...

ILChief
05-08-2011, 08:52 PM
They have been gathering intelligence on the compound and watching it for 9 mos, but never had confirmation that he was there. It was around a 50-50 chance that OBL was there.

No there was a 100% chance he was there