PDA

View Full Version : U.S. Issues Why Americans pay more for healthcare


Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 01:06 PM
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/why-do-americans-pay-more-for-healthcare.html

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/04/why-do-americans-pay-more-for-routine-visits.html

Pedro
05-11-2011, 01:10 PM
So according to this article, one of the major reasons why health care is so expensive is because our doctors are overpaid?

Great idea! Let's pass a law that says doctors must be paid less. That will fix the problem.

BucEyedPea
05-11-2011, 01:12 PM
You left out govt intervention in health care markets which distorts prices—upward usually. This has resulted in a corporatist health care market courtesy of the progressives in both parties.

Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 01:13 PM
So according to this article, one of the major reasons why health care is so expensive is because our doctors are overpaid?

Great idea! Let's pass a law that says doctors must be paid less. That will fix the problem.

No, but we can cut the Medicare reimbursement rates.

SNR
05-11-2011, 01:16 PM
If this were an objective source, it would say: "Truth! American doctors are paid more than other doctors around the world."

Instead it says: "Truth! American doctors are overpaid!"

High-paid doctors do not equal overpaid doctors

If you want to pay doctors less, then be less stringent on medical degrees and training to get them. And I don't think anybody wants to do that, especially not the government.

vailpass
05-11-2011, 01:18 PM
OMFG dailybeast=huffpo=unreadable trash.

vailpass
05-11-2011, 01:19 PM
No, but we can cut the Medicare reimbursement rates.

Great. Reduce the number of top-notch doctors and make it so only those of us who can pay a premium have access to them.
How does that fit in with your liberal leanings?

blaise
05-11-2011, 01:22 PM
So according to this article, one of the major reasons why health care is so expensive is because our doctors are overpaid?

Great idea! Let's pass a law that says doctors must be paid less. That will fix the problem.

We should spread some of their wealth around to people who dropped out of school. It's only fair.

Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 01:23 PM
If this were an objective source, it would say: "Truth! American doctors are paid more than other doctors around the world."

Instead it says: "Truth! American doctors are overpaid!"

High-paid doctors do not equal overpaid doctors

If you want to pay doctors less, then be less stringent on medical degrees and training to get them. And I don't think anybody wants to do that, especially not the government.

a) Medicaid already subsidizes medical training.

http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=1707

One of the key factors in this increase was the program of Graduate Medical Education subsidies which are provided through the Medicare system. Under this system roughly $80,000 is paid by Medicare for each and every medical resident in the country.

b) Specialists make, on average, $268K per year. Think they have a hard time paying back $250K in student loans?

Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 01:25 PM
Great. Reduce the number of top-notch doctors and make it so only those of us who can pay a premium have access to them.
How does that fit in with your liberal leanings?

The system's headed that way if healthcare costs keep outpacing inflation.

vailpass
05-11-2011, 01:33 PM
The system's headed that way if healthcare costs keep outpacing inflation.

Whatever the solution is I just don't want it to be "pay doctors less" which to me translates directly to "reduce the incentive to put in the incredibly long and hard work it takes to become/remain a top-notch doctor".

SNR
05-11-2011, 01:36 PM
a) Medicaid already subsidizes medical training.

http://theglitteringeye.com/?p=1707

One of the key factors in this increase was the program of Graduate Medical Education subsidies which are provided through the Medicare system. Under this system roughly $80,000 is paid by Medicare for each and every medical resident in the country.

b) Specialists make, on average, $268K per year. Think they have a hard time paying back $250K in student loans?Go ahead and cut doctor salaries by 40% and see what happens. That's what the article suggested-- bringing doctor salaries closer to 3x the average patient's instead of 5x.

Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 01:37 PM
Whatever the solution is I just don't want it to be "pay doctors less" which to me translates directly to "reduce the incentive to put in the incredibly long and hard work it takes to become/remain a top-notch doctor".

Yeah, because only people that make a ton of money work hard. ;)

Calcountry
05-11-2011, 01:52 PM
So according to this article, one of the major reasons why health care is so expensive is because our doctors are overpaid?

Great idea! Let's pass a law that says doctors must be paid less. That will fix the problem.Similar to a law that encourages Tom Cruz(not top gun) to pimp scooters that will cost you nothing out of pocket.

Calcountry
05-11-2011, 01:53 PM
The system's headed that way if healthcare costs keep outpacing inflation.Dude, when the government defaults on its debt, none of this is gonna matter anymore.

vailpass
05-11-2011, 01:59 PM
Yeah, because only people that make a ton of money work hard. ;)

I said nothing of the kind.

The best and brightest have options as to career paths. As it it they are incented to undergo the long and difficult journey to become doctors because the reward is sufficient.

If the reward does not justify the effort the best and brightest will look elsewhere and you are left with 2nd or 3rd rate candidates for the position.

Take the office of President of the United States as an example.

kchero
05-11-2011, 04:56 PM
Heck overall, I think a lot of healthcare professionals are underpaid if anything (especially those in general practice). I am in the pharmacy field and I know quite a bit of physicians, etc. and if you do not specialize it is not worth it (I even know a few the jumped into pharmacy instead).
Think about it, you go through all the schooling, work, time, and $$ and you still have to put up the risk of running your own business (especially if you are general practice) and the pay still isn't there for them.

HonestChieffan
05-11-2011, 07:25 PM
Whatever the solution is I just don't want it to be "pay doctors less" which to me translates directly to "reduce the incentive to put in the incredibly long and hard work it takes to become/remain a top-notch doctor".

Government docs for those who leech off the government.

Leave the rest of us alone.

Jaric
05-11-2011, 07:54 PM
If we're willing to lower our life expectancy by about 6 months or so we could drastically reduce the cost of heath care.

Brock
05-11-2011, 08:06 PM
Who's going to want to go a quarter million in debt and work long hours if there isn't a big payday down the road?

FD
05-11-2011, 08:17 PM
Who's going to want to go a quarter million in debt and work long hours if there isn't a big payday down the road?

All the doctors in Europe, Canada, Japan and other countries?

Saul Good
05-11-2011, 08:22 PM
All the doctors in Europe, Canada, Japan and other countries?

You mean all the shitty doctors in Europe, Canada, and Japan. The good ones come to the US. We have horribly unhealthy lifestyles, but we have the longest lifespans in the world in terms of death by natural causes (which is to say excluding murder and accidental death). The reason? We have the best health care in the world.

CrazyPhuD
05-11-2011, 08:26 PM
No, but we can cut the Medicare reimbursement rates.

All that will result in is people not accepting medicare patients, this is already happening in many places across the country.

Saul Good
05-11-2011, 08:27 PM
All that will result in is people not accepting medicare patients, this is already happening in many places across the country.

I can afford a new Ferrari if I refuse to pay more than $15,000.

FD
05-11-2011, 08:32 PM
You mean all the shitty doctors in Europe, Canada, and Japan. The good ones come to the US. We have horribly unhealthy lifestyles, but we have the longest lifespans in the world in terms of death by natural causes (which is to say excluding murder and accidental death). The reason? We have the best health care in the world.

Oh ok. All the doctors in the rest of the world are shitty.

Saul Good
05-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Oh ok. All the doctors in the rest of the world are shitty.

No, they just aren't nearly as good as the doctors here.

Pedro
05-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Yeah, because only people that make a ton of money work hard. ;)
You do understand why Communism failed in Russia, don't you?

I generally refrain from using a word like Communism in a discussion like this because the word is so inflammatory and it gets thrown around way too much. But implying that doctors are paid too much absolutely reeks of the communistic "from each according to his ability and to each according to his need" philosophy.

If you reduce the financial incentive for people to endure the years of study and the high cost of becoming a doctor, you'll wind up with fewer doctors. How will that affect health care costs?

Brock
05-11-2011, 09:18 PM
All the doctors in Europe, Canada, Japan and other countries?

There are significant differences between medical education and its costs here and other countries. Study up on it.

Cave Johnson
05-11-2011, 09:54 PM
You mean all the shitty doctors in Europe, Canada, and Japan. The good ones come to the US. We have horribly unhealthy lifestyles, but we have the longest lifespans in the world in terms of death by natural causes (which is to say excluding murder and accidental death). The reason? We have the best health care in the world.

Wooooo! We get an extra few shitty months thanks to our fantastic doctors. Wooooo!

Garcia Bronco
05-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Doctors are over paid in this cou try. Thats why any realistic talk about lowering medical costs starts with somehow limiting this payout for medical care. Which also has problems list by others in this thread.

Direckshun
05-11-2011, 10:20 PM
Conservatives, a question for you:

Do you believe that there's anybody in this country that should have an obligation to making healthcare access affordable?

cdcox
05-11-2011, 10:24 PM
Whatever the solution is I just don't want it to be "pay doctors less" which to me translates directly to "reduce the incentive to put in the incredibly long and hard work it takes to become/remain a top-notch doctor".

Yeah, but even some full-fledged doctors (not residents or interns) often work 16+ hours straight in order to get such great pay. How does that figure into the idea of best quality care?

cdcox
05-11-2011, 10:53 PM
So if there were twice as many doctors, what would that do to the salary that doctors are paid? I'm sure there would be more competition, supply and demand would be more balanced, and the cost of health care would go down by shrinking doctor's salaries. Med schools already limit enrollment to keep the supply of doctors low. Many more people would like to be doctors than are now admitted to med school. Some folks are close to making it, but they just miss the cut offs.

So what would happen to the quality of care if we increased the number of doctors? Statistics can help answer this question. My analysis shows that we could double the quantity of doctors and the least qualified doctors under the new system would only be 10% less qualified than the least qualified doctors now. In contrast the top 10% of doctors now are 27% more qualified than the least qualified ones. This estimate is extremely rough, but it does demonstrate that the world would not end if we doubled the number of doctors. The cost of medical care would certainly come down.

Assumptions:

Medical ability is normally distributed in the general population.
Medical schools perfectly identify the most qualified candidates now and in the future.
Medical schools will hold the same standards as they do now in terms of training. Since the rate of wash out from medical school is relatively low, most of the students admitted to med school under the lower standards will be capable of achieving the minimum standards necessary to enter the profession.
All of the most qualified people choose medicine as their career. If this assumption is false, the gap between the less and more qualified doctors is narrowed.
As of now there are around 1 million doctors in the US and the population of individuals in the right age range to be doctors is 200 million. Therefore we are now capturing the most qualified 0.5% of people as doctors. The proposal is to expand that to the most qualified 1% of people.

BucEyedPea
05-11-2011, 11:35 PM
Conservatives, a question for you:

Do you believe that there's anybody in this country that should have an obligation to making healthcare access affordable?

obligation=slavery

BucEyedPea
05-11-2011, 11:36 PM
You mean all the shitty doctors in Europe, Canada, and Japan. The good ones come to the US. We have horribly unhealthy lifestyles, but we have the longest lifespans in the world in terms of death by natural causes (which is to say excluding murder and accidental death). The reason? We have the best health care in the world.

They use more lo-tech healthcare. However, their food is better and they move more. We use more chemical farming....oh and their food tastes better too.

Bump
05-12-2011, 12:24 PM
it's extremely corrupt because it can be corrupt. A doctor in a hospital will just let someone die because the patient's insurance dropped them. Shit won't change until there is another civil war.

vailpass
05-12-2011, 12:25 PM
Conservatives, a question for you:

Do you believe that there's anybody in this country that should have an obligation to making healthcare access affordable?

Define obligation as you are using it in this question.

Bewbies
05-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Conservatives, a question for you:

Do you believe that there's anybody in this country that should have an obligation to making healthcare access affordable?

Liberals, do you think people should be responsible to pay for anything themselves?

vailpass
05-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Yeah, but even some full-fledged doctors (not residents or interns) often work 16+ hours straight in order to get such great pay. How does that figure into the idea of best quality care?

What docs regularly work 16 hour days? ER docs? None of my doctors are available 16 hour days as a regular course of business.

cdcox
05-12-2011, 01:45 PM
What docs regularly work 16 hour days? ER docs? None of my doctors are available 16 hour days as a regular course of business.

Some doctors make hospital rounds or perform surgery before or after their office hours. I'm not saying every doctor works 16 hour days every day, but it is relatively common.

FishingRod
05-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Our health system is the bastard offspring from an unholy comingling of free market and Government control that has produced a singularly unattractive child. Two factors not often discussed in our health care system is the Sky Rocketing price of an education from our public and private universities and the millions of illegal aliens accessing our services while not paying taxes to help fund them. One cannot realistically hope to constrain the skyrocketing cost of health care while ignoring these two issues. And don’t even get me started on malpractice, frivolous lawsuits and the expense of malpractice insurance.

vailpass
05-12-2011, 02:28 PM
Some doctors make hospital rounds or perform surgery before or after their office hours. I'm not saying every doctor works 16 hour days every day, but it is relatively common.

That is completely different and I would still need to see data proving that 16 hour days are "relatively common". Hell my doctor and my dentist offices are both closed Friday. They go Monday-Thursday and call it a week.

All small business owners put in more than 40 a week. As do people at all levels who want to excel at their job or profession. What does that have to do with anything?

vailpass
05-12-2011, 02:29 PM
Liberals, do you think people should be responsible to pay for anything themselves?

LMAO

cdcox
05-12-2011, 02:47 PM
That is completely different and I would still need to see data proving that 16 hour days are "relatively common". Hell my doctor and my dentist offices are both closed Friday. They go Monday-Thursday and call it a week.

All small business owners put in more than 40 a week. As do people at all levels who want to excel at their job or profession. What does that have to do with anything?



"In a hospital, care must be provided around the clock. So specialists work on an on-call system: every four days work a regular work day, through the night, and then through the next day again with two or three hours sleep, then resuming work the next morning for a half to full day and regular working hours the next two days and repeat. This of course is very taxing on the lifestyles of these doctors and can result in social and home issues."

http://www.doctorsecrets.com/secrets-in-medicine/whats-it-like-being-a-doctor-life.html

Some doctors are working too many hours (which is at least a partial cause of their high salary) to provide top level care. Train more doctors, increase competition and prices will come down and care will improve with shorter hours. Let the market system work instead of artificially limiting the supply of doctors.

vailpass
05-12-2011, 02:55 PM
"In a hospital, care must be provided around the clock. So specialists work on an on-call system: every four days work a regular work day, through the night, and then through the next day again with two or three hours sleep, then resuming work the next morning for a half to full day and regular working hours the next two days and repeat. This of course is very taxing on the lifestyles of these doctors and can result in social and home issues."

http://www.doctorsecrets.com/secrets-in-medicine/whats-it-like-being-a-doctor-life.html

Some doctors are working too many hours (which is at least a partial cause of their high salary) to provide top level care. Train more doctors, increase competition and prices will come down and care will improve with shorter hours. Let the market system work instead of artificially limiting the supply of doctors.

Would these doctors then earn less than they do now?

cdcox
05-12-2011, 03:05 PM
Would these doctors then earn less than they do now?

Only if the supply grows fasrter than the demand. Right now the demand for doctors outstrips supply driving costs up. Let's allow
markets to work for us by not artificially surpressing the supply.

vailpass
05-12-2011, 06:01 PM
Only if the supply grows fasrter than the demand. Right now the demand for doctors outstrips supply driving costs up. Let's allow
markets to work for us by not artificially surpressing the supply.

It is your position that there is some force at work in our country that is willfully suppressing the number of doctors?
If true I agree there shouldn't be any market manipulation there but I don't see anything other than natural forces at play in determining who becomes a doctor.

Brock
05-12-2011, 06:51 PM
It is your position that there is some force at work in our country that is willfully suppressing the number of doctors?
If true I agree there shouldn't be any market manipulation there but I don't see anything other than natural forces at play in determining who becomes a doctor.

There is a shortage of medical schools in the US compared to other industrialized countries.

The_Doctor10
05-12-2011, 07:14 PM
Yeah, because only people that make a ton of money work hard. ;)

Based on the amount of effort it takes to become a doctor and then how much being a doctor destroys the rest of your life, I think we can continue to make doctors handsomely-paid individuals.

Now, cap malpractice lawsuits or do something to discourage frivolous lawsuits against doctors because your chest hurts post -bypass surgery, that might help things.

The_Doctor10
05-12-2011, 07:16 PM
It is your position that there is some force at work in our country that is willfully suppressing the number of doctors?
If true I agree there shouldn't be any market manipulation there but I don't see anything other than natural forces at play in determining who becomes a doctor.

Well you could argue a substandard education system and other cultural factors do not lend themselves to fostering a society where people aspire to become doctors... I'm sometimes shocked that doctors who say they're just in it to help people aren't branded as socialists...

Bewbies
05-12-2011, 07:32 PM
Well you could argue a substandard education system and other cultural factors do not lend themselves to fostering a society where people aspire to become doctors... I'm sometimes shocked that doctors who say they're just in it to help people aren't branded as socialists...

I don't understand docs who are just in it for the money. Building a business is a much easier route to take.