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KILLER_CLOWN
05-11-2011, 10:53 PM
SWAT team fired 71 shots in raid, killing home owner | Cops say he shot at them, but no evidence to support claim

May 11, 2011 – 2:41 pm No Gravatar

Source: AZStarnet

The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.

Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff’s Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week’s raid.

Six days after Guerena was shot, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the southwest-side home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known. Guerena’s role in the narcotics investigation is unclear and deputies would not comment on what was seized from his home.

Three other homes within a quarter of a mile from Guerena’s house, were served search warrants related to the investigation that morning. The addresses and the names of people who live in the other homes have not been made public.

Vanessa Guerena says she heard noise outside their home about 9 a.m. Thursday and woke her husband who had just gone to bed after working a 12-hour shift at the Asarco Mine, she said. There were no sirens or shouts of “police,” she said.

Guerena told his wife and son to hide inside a closet and he grabbed the AR-15 rifle, his wife said.

The department says SWAT members were clear when identifying themselves while entering the home.

Read More: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html

RNR
05-12-2011, 09:32 AM
If SWAT and police officers are outside and intend on entering your house grabbing your AR-15 is pretty stupid~

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 10:03 AM
If SWAT and police officers are outside and intend on entering your house grabbing your AR-15 is pretty stupid~

He had come home from work and been asleep for two hours. His wife saw someone outside the windows sneaking around and yelled to him that someone was trying to break into the house. The wife says none of the cops ever announced themselves, not before or after they fired 70+ rounds.

He grabbed his rifle and took aim, but because he had such good trigger discipline he never fired.

The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying.

Immediately afterward the cops claimed their shields had dents from the rounds the guy fired, but they backed off that story.

They also claim when they busted in (for a warrant they now admit was NOT a no-knock warrant) the guy said "I have something for you", but no other witness heard that.

Someone in SWAT needs to go to prison for this. Plain and simple. They murdered this guy because they were out getting their paramilitary on.

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 10:07 AM
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14621212/marine-killed-by-swat-was-acting-in-defense-says-family

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 10:12 AM
Oh, and the wife called 911 when she saw the cops sneaking around the house. Do you call the cops if you think it's cops outside your house?

"The 911 call center notified Drexel Heights at 9:43am. A unit arrived just two minutes later at 9:45. But deputies told rescue workers to stay put. That’s standard to be sure they won’t walk into danger. But they waited until 10:59. Then heard the radio call `Code 900′, that means they were no longer needed because the person was dead."

BigCatDaddy
05-12-2011, 10:16 AM
Tragic, but here's an idea. Let's not give the swat team a reason to come to our door.

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Tragic, but here's an idea. Let's not give the swat team a reason to come to our door.

This is probably either the most ill-informed post in the history of this board or the stupidest ****ing post. One of the two.

They didn't find any drugs. They didn't have a no-knock warrant, so why the **** did they need a SWAT team at all? Hell the cops have yet to even explain what the hell they thought they were going to find or what made them think there might be anything at that house.

This isn't just tragic. This is a bunch of adrenaline junkies who murdered a Marine in his home. The man survived two tours in Iraq to be killed by a bunch of assholes in his own home in front of his family. "Men" who left him laying there bleeding to death for an hour. That doesn't leave you wanting to ask a couple of questions?

notorious
05-12-2011, 10:33 AM
This just smells bad.


My initial instincts: SWAT screwed the pooch, and a man got killed for defending his home against an unknown entity.


The fact that the Police are changing their stories is damning evidence.

Garcia Bronco
05-12-2011, 10:44 AM
Gotta put the SWAT guys in jail for this and a long time and then maybe other SWAT teams will stop acting like this. SWAT cops are to the military like rent-a-cops are to cops.

notorious
05-12-2011, 10:48 AM
The SAME thing could/would happen at my home.


SWAT gets the address wrong, my wife wakes me up nervously and tells me someone is outside trying to break in.

I go and grab Mr. .308, 45, or 12 gauge.

Hide daughter in the closet, then BOOM! 12 guys come into my house, see me armed and fill me full of lead.


Scary stuff.

Garcia Bronco
05-12-2011, 10:58 AM
The SAME thing could/would happen at my home.


SWAT gets the address wrong, my wife wakes me up nervously and tells me someone is outside trying to break in.

I go and grab Mr. .308, 45, or 12 gauge.

Hide daughter in the closet, then BOOM! 12 guys come into my house, see me armed and fill me full of lead.


Scary stuff.

I think it would play out that way in most house holds.

SWAT stands for special weapons and tactics and these guys used zero sense in tactics. If they thought he really was involved in narcotics and works a 12 hour a day shift...which doesn't really add the fuck up...then get his ass leaving work or the freakin grocery store.

Jaric
05-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm usually more than willing to give police officers the benifit of the doubt. They have an impossible, shitty, and extremely dangerous job that is largely thankless.

That said, all the information here points to SWAT fucking up pretty seriously, and there needs to be some serious consequences for that. A good man (by all accounts) is dead. Someone needs to answer for that.

Earthling
05-12-2011, 11:09 AM
A friend of mine lost his Uncle about 12 years ago or so in a similar fashion. Plain-clothes cops burst into his home and basically murdered him. Turned out they had gotten the wrong address for a supposed meth dealer.

I almost sent an open letter to our one and only newspaper stating my name and address and the fact that if any armed servant of the law EVER needed to arrest me in my home for any real or imagined crime that I would be very compliant as long as they identified themselves first, and that if they just barged into my home they could very likely lose their head to my 12 ga. shotgun. After reading this travesty of justice I am again considering sending that letter.

Bump
05-12-2011, 11:12 AM
if the SWAT team were at my door, I don't think I would go for any weapons, but that's just me.

Bump
05-12-2011, 11:15 AM
He had come home from work and been asleep for two hours. His wife saw someone outside the windows sneaking around and yelled to him that someone was trying to break into the house. The wife says none of the cops ever announced themselves, not before or after they fired 70+ rounds.

He grabbed his rifle and took aim, but because he had such good trigger discipline he never fired.

The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying.

Immediately afterward the cops claimed their shields had dents from the rounds the guy fired, but they backed off that story.

They also claim when they busted in (for a warrant they now admit was NOT a no-knock warrant) the guy said "I have something for you", but no other witness heard that.

Someone in SWAT needs to go to prison for this. Plain and simple. They murdered this guy because they were out getting their paramilitary on.


well when you put it that way, that changes things from the article in the OP.

FishingRod
05-12-2011, 11:19 AM
It has been years ago but once upon a time in Kansas City a guy with a BBQ fork was Shot 18 times. They must not have liked his cooking.

Jaric
05-12-2011, 11:22 AM
It has been years ago but once upon a time in Kansas City a guy with a BBQ fork was Shot 18 times. They must not have liked his cooking.

Sounds like a "sauce vs rub" argument gone wrong.

HonestChieffan
05-12-2011, 11:31 AM
Seems like a lot of misinformation....regardless, bunch of cops shows up....do you:

1) Grab your AR15 and assume you may need to shoot said cop(s)
2) Remain calm since you have nothing they should be there for and when they enter, raise ones hands empty. Say in a calm voice as you can, "Hi officer, whats going on?"


On another note...70 plus shots fired...how many impacted? And how tough was this sob that "The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying."

Earthling
05-12-2011, 11:31 AM
It has been years ago but once upon a time in Kansas City a guy with a BBQ fork was Shot 18 times. They must not have liked his cooking.

The cops all agreed that he said he was "going to get some ribs" so it was justified.

Pedro
05-12-2011, 11:38 AM
Seems like a lot of misinformation....regardless, bunch of cops shows up....do you:

1) Grab your AR15 and assume you may need to shoot said cop(s)
2) Remain calm since you have nothing they should be there for and when they enter, raise ones hands empty. Say in a calm voice as you can, "Hi officer, whats going on?"


On another note...70 plus shots fired...how many impacted? And how tough was this sob that "The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying."
You're assuming he knew they were cops.

Earthling
05-12-2011, 11:38 AM
Seems like a lot of misinformation....regardless, bunch of cops shows up....do you:

1) Grab your AR15 and assume you may need to shoot said cop(s)
2) Remain calm since you have nothing they should be there for and when they enter, raise ones hands empty. Say in a calm voice as you can, "Hi officer, whats going on?"


On another note...70 plus shots fired...how many impacted? And how tough was this sob that "The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying."

You hear someone burst through your door and you don't know for certain who or why because you are a law abiding citizen...Do you not prepare yourself for the likely-hood of an intruder?

FishingRod
05-12-2011, 11:41 AM
I think he said "the pork is ready come get some" and they had a little misunderstanding what he was talking about. I think this was long enough that the standard sidearm was still a .38. I never did hear if 3 emptied on him at the same time or one guy just reloaded twice.

Jaric
05-12-2011, 11:41 AM
Seems like a lot of misinformation....regardless, bunch of cops shows up....do you:

1) Grab your AR15 and assume you may need to shoot said cop(s)
2) Remain calm since you have nothing they should be there for and when they enter, raise ones hands empty. Say in a calm voice as you can, "Hi officer, whats going on?"


On another note...70 plus shots fired...how many impacted? And how tough was this sob that "The cops didn't allow the paramedics in the apartment for an hour while the guy lay there on the floor dying."

If one is to believe the family, they didn't know it was cops breaking into their house because they never identified themselves as cops.

If you saw someone sneaking around outside your house at night, would you just assume it was a swat team?

HonestChieffan
05-12-2011, 11:49 AM
I dont know. Ive never seen a herd of guys dressed like ninjas wearing BulletProof Tactical gear with SWAT on their chest swarming in my yard at 9am.

I suppose the guy could have thought it was zombies.

The other three homes residents must have chosen the hands up option and are not dead.

frankotank
05-12-2011, 11:52 AM
If one is to believe the family, they didn't know it was cops breaking into their house because they never identified themselves as cops.

If you saw someone sneaking around outside your house at night, would you just assume it was a swat team?

Agreed! this post is only two pages long and this point has been mentioned MANY times now. yet people keep saying "why would you grab a gun if it's the swat team". reading.........it's hard! so given that they supposedly did NOT know they were cops I ask this. why in the world would you have a firearm in your house if you don't intend on defending yourself if the need arises. I have a gun on all three levels of my house. in the same situation I guess I'd be dead too...

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 12:41 PM
You're assuming he knew they were cops.

It's been established they didn't know they were cops. The Marine held his fire, the cops didn't.

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Even the cops admitted that the area these people live in has a history of armed break ins by criminals. This guy had every reason to prepare to defend his family. He kept his safety on and the cops went ape shit, then spent an hour waiting for him to die.

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 12:46 PM
I dont know. Ive never seen a herd of guys dressed like ninjas wearing BulletProof Tactical gear with SWAT on their chest swarming in my yard at 9am.

I suppose the guy could have thought it was zombies.

The other three homes residents must have chosen the hands up option and are not dead.

So the cops don't have to be held accountable for split-second decisions, but the guy woken up by his wife yelling that someone was breaking into the house does have to.

How about you explain why it took the cops more than an hour to clear the house and let the paramedics in? That should be easy for you.

LOCOChief
05-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I dont know. Ive never seen a herd of guys dressed like ninjas wearing BulletProof Tactical gear with SWAT on their chest swarming in my yard at 9am.

I suppose the guy could have thought it was zombies.

The other three homes residents must have chosen the hands up option and are not dead.

You can bet they weren't just standing around in the yard like sitting ducks.

If my wife wakes me and says someone is sneaking around my house and I know there's no reason for cops in my yard...... I'm armed in a heartbeat

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 01:33 PM
You can bet they weren't just standing around in the yard like sitting ducks.

If my wife wakes me and says someone is sneaking around my house and I know there's no reason for cops in my yard...... I'm armed in a heartbeat

As I hear it from this board you shouldn't have been doing anything to make the cops be at your house and they should probably shoot you. :shrug:

LOCOChief
05-12-2011, 01:41 PM
As I hear it from this board you shouldn't have been doing anything to make the cops be at your house and they should probably shoot you. :shrug:

Yeah I caught that also. Sounds like good victom material to me.
I've known a couple of SWAT guys and I've seen them go ape shit a time or two. We'll never know but this smells bad.

scott free
05-12-2011, 01:48 PM
This just smells bad.


My initial instincts: SWAT screwed the pooch, and a man got killed for defending his home against an unknown entity.


The fact that the Police are changing their stories is damning evidence.

Pretty much this.

RNR
05-12-2011, 02:05 PM
You hear someone burst through your door and you don't know for certain who or why because you are a law abiding citizen...Do you not prepare yourself for the likely-hood of an intruder?

I understand this thought because if someone burst through my door I would be going for my gun also. Real good chance rounds would be fired. That said SWAT and police yell and identify themselves before entering. I wonder why they were there to begin with and have a very hard time buying they did not yell several times "POLICE" "SWAT" before opening fire~

Adept Havelock
05-12-2011, 07:11 PM
As has been said, something smells very rotten with this SWAT team.

HonestChieffan
05-12-2011, 07:15 PM
So the cops don't have to be held accountable for split-second decisions, but the guy woken up by his wife yelling that someone was breaking into the house does have to.

How about you explain why it took the cops more than an hour to clear the house and let the paramedics in? That should be easy for you.

No its not easy. Its easy to blame the cops. The information in the OP is incomplete. If the cops did bad, they need to be held accountable. Three other places were taken and no one was killed. In one some dude grabs a gun and gets shot....maybe the fault is evenly spread?

Adept Havelock
05-12-2011, 07:17 PM
No its not easy. Its easy to blame the cops. The information in the OP is incomplete. If the cops did bad, they need to be held accountable. Three other places were taken and no one was killed. In one some dude grabs a gun and gets shot....maybe the fault is evenly spread?

My apologies for my previous screed against you. This is a much more level headed response, and deserving of the same.

Brock
05-12-2011, 07:19 PM
No its not easy. Its easy to blame the cops. The information in the OP is incomplete. If the cops did bad, they need to be held accountable. Three other places were taken and no one was killed. In one some dude grabs a gun and gets shot....maybe the fault is evenly spread?

What's the matter with just knocking on the fucking door?

HonestChieffan
05-12-2011, 07:19 PM
As has been said, something smells very rotten with this SWAT team.




You really are that big an idiot, aren't you?

Obviously you didn't, or are incapable of, reading the thread.

WTF would you do if your wife woke you up, told you there she saw someone with a gun outside the window?

Sure, she called the cops to report that she saw a SWAT team. She saw an armed stranger outside her home, and her Marine husband told his family to get in a closet and died because he chose to defend his home. You belittle him for it. What a pathetic excuse of a man you are. :shake:

Yep. Im an idiot. I would likely not take on an armed invasion by multiple people all dressed alike in broad daylight knowing I am not a guilty party to anything...just like the other three houses.

But you can do whatever you choose in that situation. Im sure you being a non pathetic sort would have wasted the entire bunch like Rambo. I don't belittle the guy. He may...may...have made a bad judgement call. We all make judgement calls. You will always be right. I don't have your skills and total awareness. I yearn to be as smart as people like you.

Brock
05-12-2011, 07:26 PM
If a fed agency did this, you'd be all over it like stink on shit.

Bewbies
05-12-2011, 07:39 PM
Something like this happened a few years ago in Atlanta. An old lady was sitting in her living room and the cops busted in a shot her dead.

They had the wrong address and thought they were busting into a drug house. That one cost the city a ton, and if I'm not mistaken there were some prison sentences as well.

banyon
05-12-2011, 07:44 PM
What's the matter with just knocking on the ****ing door?

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DNcBazCnmdg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

banyon
05-12-2011, 07:45 PM
My apologies for my previous screed against you. This is a much more level headed response, and deserving of the same.

Where have you been?

banyon
05-12-2011, 07:47 PM
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14621212/marine-killed-by-swat-was-acting-in-defense-says-family


From this link:

Authorities told KGUN9 that three other neighborhood homes were targeted Thursday, all tied to a narcotics conspiracy. They say a large amount of cash was found at one of the homes. But, not at the Guerena house; all they said they found there was "evidence pertinent to the case." At this time, officials aren't saying anything more. However, Vanessa Guerena has insisted there were no drugs or money in their home.

:hmmm:

banyon
05-12-2011, 07:48 PM
So the cops don't have to be held accountable for split-second decisions, but the guy woken up by his wife yelling that someone was breaking into the house does have to.

How about you explain why it took the cops more than an hour to clear the house and let the paramedics in? That should be easy for you.

Our Swat has EMS standing by when they do such a raid so they will be right there.

Simplex3
05-12-2011, 08:22 PM
Our Swat has EMS standing by when they do such a raid so they will be right there.

EMS was on the scene within two minutes. Over an hour later these SWAT assholes called the EMT's and said "don't bother, dude just died." If we assume that the cops were right clear up to and including shooting him, how do you explain it taking them over an hour to get the EMT's from outside the house to inside the house? What exactly was SWAT doing? Taking a bath? Showering? Doing the dishes?

teedubya
05-12-2011, 08:39 PM
This is just the beginning of the police state... you can thank all of the idiots blissfully unaware.

A frog doesn't realize he is slowly being boiled.

banyon
05-12-2011, 08:48 PM
EMS was on the scene within two minutes. Over an hour later these SWAT assholes called the EMT's and said "don't bother, dude just died." If we assume that the cops were right clear up to and including shooting him, how do you explain it taking them over an hour to get the EMT's from outside the house to inside the house? What exactly was SWAT doing? Taking a bath? Showering? Doing the dishes?

Depends. If it was a meth dealer/lab, there is the potential for booby traps (explosives). Drug dealers tend to be paranoid and protect their stash. There may have been a need to weigh the benefit of having EMT's check on someone who was clearly dead vs. exposing the EMT's to possible harm themselves.

Don't know that this is the case, but it does happen frequently with meth labs. Clearing them is a tedious process.

Brock
05-12-2011, 09:27 PM
This is just the beginning of the police state... you can thank all of the idiots blissfully unaware.

A frog doesn't realize he is slowly being boiled.

Yeah, right, because this is something brand new.

Simplex3
05-13-2011, 12:06 AM
Depends. If it was a meth dealer/lab, there is the potential for booby traps (explosives). Drug dealers tend to be paranoid and protect their stash. There may have been a need to weigh the benefit of having EMT's check on someone who was clearly dead vs. exposing the EMT's to possible harm themselves.

Don't know that this is the case, but it does happen frequently with meth labs. Clearing them is a tedious process.

I'm not buying it. By SWAT's own admission the guy was in the hall and the house was empty except for them and the homeowner. If SWAT was that concerned they could have carried the guy out of the house to EMS themselves. This just reeks of "Oh crap, we screwed up. Better make sure this guy dies so he isn't a witness."

KC native
05-13-2011, 12:24 AM
My mom has worked at the KCPD since she was 18, there are only two groups of cops she hates. Narcotics and SWAT.

She hates narcotics because she thinks they're lying fucking pos that think they are above the law.

She hates SWAT because they're meathead motherfuckers.

Fishpicker
05-13-2011, 02:48 AM
I used to watch the SWAT tv show. every episode would feature a different city. one week it would be Dallas SWAT, the next week it would be Detroit SWAT. when they got around to following and filming KC SWAT, one of the the KC SWAT team leaders made a pretty startling admission. they don't receive any funds from any government agency. they make so much money that they can be completely autonomous. gee, I wonder if that's legit.

banyon
05-13-2011, 06:54 AM
I'm not buying it. By SWAT's own admission the guy was in the hall and the house was empty except for them and the homeowner. If SWAT was that concerned they could have carried the guy out of the house to EMS themselves. This just reeks of "Oh crap, we screwed up. Better make sure this guy dies so he isn't a witness."

It wasn't empty according to your link. There was "evidence related to the case". Which could be the remnants of a meth lab (which is why it wouldn't be cash or drugs).

KC native
05-13-2011, 11:41 AM
I used to watch the SWAT tv show. every episode would feature a different city. one week it would be Dallas SWAT, the next week it would be Detroit SWAT. when they got around to following and filming KC SWAT, one of the the KC SWAT team leaders made a pretty startling admission. they don't receive any funds from any government agency. they make so much money that they can be completely autonomous. gee, I wonder if that's legit.

Asset forfeiture is huge business for law enofrcement agencies. It's also extremely corrupt. There are stories abound of wrngfully confiscated money and property. It drives the need for swat to kick down doors so they can kep getting new equipment and justify their existence.

KCPD SWAT and narcotics got in trouble a few years ago for letting the feds take assets they confiscated and then the feds would kick it backt to KC thus cutting the state out of their portion of asset forfeitures.

RJ
05-13-2011, 01:39 PM
A few days ago here in Albuquerque the SWAT team shot a guy who at the time was armed with a plastic spoon. He had come out of a house to talk to the negotiator. When he turned to go back inside a sniper shot him in the head. The dude may have had it coming, I don't know all the details, but what struck me was the fact it was the third time that particular officer had shot someone and the second fatality. I can't help but wonder about that.

The God Hypothesis
05-13-2011, 03:19 PM
My mom has worked at the KCPD since she was 18, there are only two groups of cops she hates. Narcotics and SWAT.

She hates narcotics because she thinks they're lying ****ing pos that think they are above the law.

She hates SWAT because they're meathead mother****ers.

My best friend is a KCMO SWAT team member and he is neither a meathead nor well compensated for his job.

He works his ass off for shit pay (doesnt complain about it fwiw) & keeps getting promoted but hasn't received a penny raise since they put a freeze on wage increases some years ago.

Reading this story pisses me off @ the irresponsible behavior of this particular SWAT team but to paint them all in a corner as meathead motherfuckers seems a tad lazy and irrational.

KC native
05-13-2011, 03:36 PM
My best friend is a KCMO SWAT team member and he is neither a meathead nor well compensated for his job.

He works his ass off for shit pay (doesnt complain about it fwiw) & keeps getting promoted but hasn't received a penny raise since they put a freeze on wage increases some years ago.

Reading this story pisses me off @ the irresponsible behavior of this particular SWAT team but to paint them all in a corner as meathead motherfuckers seems a tad lazy and irrational.

Horse shit. KCPD officers make decent money. Being on SWAT gets him extra. Also, SWAT team spends a good portion of their time when they're not kicking doors just working out.

I've been around KCPD all my life. My grandpa retired from the department as did my aunt and uncle. My stepfather is about to retire. My mom has been there 30+ years. I have no sympathy for SWAT guys.

The God Hypothesis
05-13-2011, 03:54 PM
Horse shit. KCPD officers make decent money. Being on SWAT gets him extra. Also, SWAT team spends a good portion of their time when they're not kicking doors just working out.

I've been around KCPD all my life. My grandpa retired from the department as did my aunt and uncle. My stepfather is about to retire. My mom has been there 30+ years. I have no sympathy for SWAT guys.

Great. My father is a retired KCPD, the bomb squad the last 8 years. My brother is a current KCPD. What does that have to do with anything?

I wasnt looking for sympathy for him or any other SWAT guys. I do however think its bullshit to call them all "meathead motherfuckers". Some of those guys work their ass off for less than adequate compensation.

teedubya
05-13-2011, 04:05 PM
Policemen nationwide have an average IQ of 104. So, yeah... meatheads.

The God Hypothesis
05-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Brilliant comment. What is the average IQ of the KCPD SWAT, the gentlemen I was referring to? A blind disregard or hatred for all men in blue is ridiculous but...haters gonna hate.

Pants
05-13-2011, 04:42 PM
Policemen nationwide have an average IQ of 104. So, yeah... meatheads.

You're going to have to source a claim like that, champ.

Earthling
05-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Isn't 104 pretty much in the normal range? Not sure where meat-head would register.

Adept Havelock
05-13-2011, 05:04 PM
Isn't 104 pretty much in the normal range? Not sure where meat-head would register.

Not nearly as high as he would have you believe, but still North of Archie's.


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8003/mustachesrobreiner10.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/151/mustachesrobreiner10.jpg/)


Incidentally, a contemptuous attitude to elements of SWAT does not equal "a blind disregard or hatred for all men in blue"

Donger
05-13-2011, 05:08 PM
Policemen nationwide have an average IQ of 104. So, yeah... meatheads.

What is your IQ?

HonestChieffan
05-13-2011, 06:18 PM
Brilliant comment. What is the average IQ of the KCPD SWAT, the gentlemen I was referring to? A blind disregard or hatred for all men in blue is ridiculous but...haters gonna hate.


Its way higher than KCNaive's. Nots sure where nitwit falls on the scale but has his place locked down.

The God Hypothesis
05-13-2011, 06:25 PM
Brilliant comment. What is the average IQ of the KCPD SWAT, the gentlemen I were referring to? A blind disregard or hatred for all men in blue is ridiculous but...haters gonna hate.

Its way higher than KCNaive's. Nots sure where nitwit falls on the scale but has his place locked down.

Speaking of IQ...FMP :banghead:

Psyko Tek
05-13-2011, 07:20 PM
This just smells bad.


My initial instincts: SWAT screwed the pooch, and a man got killed for defending his home against an unknown entity.


The fact that the Police are changing their stories is damning evidence.

I am so tired of AZstupid stories
but AZ keeps doing stupid shit

I fear for this state
I live there with 3 kids and an ex
I just wish this place would be a little less wild west

banyon
05-14-2011, 07:06 AM
I am so tired of AZstupid stories
but AZ keeps doing stupid shit

I fear for this state
I live there with 3 kids and an ex
I just wish this place would be a little less wild west

You really would think that there has been a board meeting at the Tuscon TV station to decide if retaining the call letters "KGUN" is still a good idea.

ChiefsandO'sfan
05-27-2011, 06:01 PM
Arizona Police Under Scrutiny After Opening Fire on and Killing Marine in His Home



Published May 27, 2011

| FoxNews.com

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There is a video of it on fox news but i cant post a link for some reason go check it out







A Marine who was fatally shot in his Arizona home earlier this month never fired upon the SWAT team that fired at him 71 times, according to reports released by police.

Jose Guerena, a 26-year-old father of two and veteran of the Iraq war, died on May 5 in his home near Tucson, Ariz., during an anti-drug police raid. Authorities initially reported that they thought Guerena fired upon them, but an investigation revealed that no shots were fired.

The SWAT team descended upon Guerena's home thinking it was one of four houses associated with a drug smuggling operation. But nothing illegal was found during a subsequent search of the residence.

Guerena’s wife, Vanessa, is determined to clear her husband’s good name. She said the couple's son continues to ask: "Is he a bad guy?"

The five SWAT team members remain on active duty. No criminal charges have been filed and no disciplinary action taken.




Guerena, his brother and another man were listed as suspects in a complex drug investigation being conducted by the Pima County Sheriff's Department, the Arizona Daily Star reports.

More than 500 pages of officers' statements, evidence lists and witness interviews were released by the department, as well as a short video showing Pima County Regional SWAT team members serving the warrant -- and opening fire.

The video, according to the Daily Star, depicts deputies approaching Guerena's home as sirens blared. It also showed deputies announcing themselves before knocking down the front door and firing their guns.

Guerena's wife called 911 begging for medical assistance. But authorities reportedly didn't enter the home for a hour, while they determined the scene was secure. By then, it was too late to save Guerena.

Simplex3
05-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Once again, explain why a no-knock warrant was issued for this house. The homeowners all left at one point in the day or another. If the cops were afraid enough to go busting in with full military gear wouldn't it have been smarter to just send 4 uniformed officers to pull him over and arrest him on his way to work, then stop the wife and kids on their way out shopping?

Ugly Duck
05-27-2011, 11:33 PM
Tragic situation. But its also kinda hard to ask cops not to fire when someone is pointing an AR-15 at them. They're probably trained to fire at someone who points one of these things at them.

http://www.soksa.com/assets/publicDocs/userFiles/icy/image/ar-15.jpg

Brock
05-27-2011, 11:41 PM
Tragic situation. But its also kinda hard to ask cops not to fire when someone is pointing an AR-15 at them. They're probably trained to fire at someone who points one of these things at them.

http://www.soksa.com/assets/publicDocs/userFiles/icy/image/ar-15.jpg

Apparently, it's kinda hard to stop pulling the trigger and it's also kinda hard to let EMS do their jobs before this apparent law abiding citizen bled out.

Ugly Duck
05-28-2011, 02:22 AM
law abiding citizen.

I doubt that its legal to point guns at police.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-28-2011, 02:37 AM
I doubt that its legal to point guns at police.

Which one couldn't possibly know, considering there was no announcement. Just people busting down the door unannounced. Hence, no knock warrant. Bullshit.

BigMeatballDave
05-28-2011, 05:26 AM
This is probably either the most ill-informed post in the history of this board or the stupidest ****ing post. One of the two.

They didn't find any drugs. They didn't have a no-knock warrant, so why the **** did they need a SWAT team at all? Hell the cops have yet to even explain what the hell they thought they were going to find or what made them think there might be anything at that house.

This isn't just tragic. This is a bunch of adrenaline junkies who murdered a Marine in his home. The man survived two tours in Iraq to be killed by a bunch of assholes in his own home in front of his family. "Men" who left him laying there bleeding to death for an hour. That doesn't leave you wanting to ask a couple of questions?Yep. Heads should fucking roll over this. Whoever was in charge of that raid should be in prison.

BigMeatballDave
05-28-2011, 05:44 AM
What is your IQ?That number fluctuates. Is he currently wearing his tinfoil hat? :)

RNR
05-28-2011, 06:58 AM
I doubt that its legal to point guns at police.

It is not and it really stupid~

RNR
05-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Horse shit. KCPD officers make decent money. Being on SWAT gets him extra. Also, SWAT team spends a good portion of their time when they're not kicking doors just working out.

I've been around KCPD all my life. My grandpa retired from the department as did my aunt and uncle. My stepfather is about to retire. My mom has been there 30+ years. I have no sympathy for SWAT guys.

And if you ever are faced with them I hope they have none for you~

KC native
05-29-2011, 12:23 PM
And if you ever are faced with them I hope they have none for you~

Eat shit. Those guys volunteer to be on that team. They want to do that shit. When shit happens to them or when they pull meathead bullshit like this, I have no sympathy for them.

The militarization of our local police is a bad thing and is increasing. I know you might not mind living in a police state but I do.

Brock
05-29-2011, 12:28 PM
I doubt that its legal to point guns at police.

That excuses their lies and obstruction of EMS.

banyon
05-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Which one couldn't possibly know, considering there was no announcement. Just people busting down the door unannounced. Hence, no knock warrant. Bullshit.

-

The video, according to the Daily Star, depicts deputies approaching Guerena's home as sirens blared. It also showed deputies announcing themselves before knocking down the front door and firing their guns.

banyon
05-29-2011, 12:54 PM
Once again, explain why a no-knock warrant was issued for this house. The homeowners all left at one point in the day or another. If the cops were afraid enough to go busting in with full military gear wouldn't it have been smarter to just send 4 uniformed officers to pull him over and arrest him on his way to work, then stop the wife and kids on their way out shopping?

1. This information might be confidential and part of an ongoing investigation.

2. The information might have been time sensitive, or they might have been looking for something in the house that the car stop wouldn't have accomplished.

3. It appears they knocked and announced.

banyon
05-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Eat shit. Those guys volunteer to be on that team. They want to do that shit. When shit happens to them or when they pull meathead bullshit like this, I have no sympathy for them.

The militarization of our local police is a bad thing and is increasing. I know you might not mind living in a police state but I do.

The second bolded part, while a rational policy concern, in no way justifies your blanket hatred in the first bolded part.

These are people that place themselves at risk for the public. There are many situations where they can get called out besides busting a drug dealer. Saying you don't care if bad things happen to them is Phelps-esque.

Mr. Flopnuts
05-29-2011, 01:12 PM
-

If that's the case, that changes my entire view on this.

orange
05-29-2011, 01:56 PM
<object width="560" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/hd_OJmTL3jk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/hd_OJmTL3jk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="349" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Chocolate Hog
05-29-2011, 02:01 PM
Fuck the police.

Ugly Duck
05-29-2011, 02:58 PM
This tragedy is one of the dangers inherent to having firearms in the home. One danger is kids playing with them - 1,400 kids died playing with the household gun between 1999 & 2006. Another danger is you might accidentally point one at a cop. Sure, your home is more protected from bad guys when you have a gun at home. The tradeoff is a kid might find it & die or you might get shot while inadvertently pointing it at a cop.

CoMoChief
05-29-2011, 03:32 PM
This tragedy is one of the dangers inherent to having firearms in the home. One danger is kids playing with them - 1,400 kids died playing with the household gun between 1999 & 2006. Another danger is you might accidentally point one at a cop. Sure, your home is more protected from bad guys when you have a gun at home. The tradeoff is a kid might find it & die or you might get shot while inadvertently pointing it at a cop.

dumbest CP post of all-time

notorious
05-29-2011, 03:54 PM
dumbest CP post of all-time

What is wrong with his post?




Everything he stated is correct. I own a small arsenal, yet do not get defensive when someone makes a accurate statement.

If the guy didn't have a weapon, he would probably be alive today, even if the SWAT team ****ed up big-time. This story certainly isn't going to persuade me to get rid of my guns, though.


Idiots that don't lock up their guns or keep them out of reach from children are why all gun owners get a bad wrap.

vailpass
05-29-2011, 04:01 PM
And if you ever are faced with them I hope they have none for you~

X100. Another wart on the taint of society removed.

Ugly Duck
05-29-2011, 06:14 PM
dumbest CP post of all-time

Everything he stated is correct.

Is it possible that those two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

notorious
05-29-2011, 07:09 PM
Is it possible that those two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

It scares me that I have been agreeing more with Raider fans then Chiefs fans lately.



WTF gives? :D

ClevelandBronco
05-29-2011, 07:10 PM
The second bolded part, while a rational policy concern, in no way justifies your blanket hatred in the first bolded part.

These are people that place themselves at risk for the public. There are many situations where they can get called out besides busting a drug dealer. Saying you don't care if bad things happen to them is Phelps-esque.

:bravo:

KILLER_CLOWN
05-29-2011, 11:01 PM
1. This information might be confidential and part of an ongoing investigation.

2. The information might have been time sensitive, or they might have been looking for something in the house that the car stop wouldn't have accomplished.

3. It appears they knocked and announced.

None of this matters since it was not warranted in the 1st place.

Phobia
05-29-2011, 11:16 PM
If I ever decide to start breaking into people's homes, I'm definitely yelling "police" so they don't shoot me.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-29-2011, 11:56 PM
Oath Keepers Rally to Honor Jose Guerena and Oppose SWAT Searches

Oath Keepers
May 27, 2011

Oath Keepers will muster at Tucson, Arizona, on Memorial Day, May 30, 2011.

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S6NOx5Cx8Ws&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S6NOx5Cx8Ws&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/25/oath-keepers-muster-_-tucson-info/

What — An Oath Keepers muster. Oath Keepers and friends will muster and march to the home of Mrs. Vanessa Guerena for a ceremony of memoriam for her late husband Jose Guerena, a U.S. Marine Corps veteran of the Iraq war.

When – 8:00 a.m. sharp Monday morning Memorial Day, May 30, 2011

Where – The intersection of West Valencia Road and South Wade Road. Take I-10 to I-19 South and exit West Valencia Road to South Wade Road, Tucson, Arizona. See below.

Who – Oath Keepers is calling for all veterans, National Guardsmen, active duty military, current-serving peace officers, firefighters, retired public servants, gun owners, veterans organizations, civic organizations, church groups, student groups, and other patriotic Americans.

Why — To stand with Oath Keepers at a memorial service for Jose Guerena, a war veteran who was killed by law-enforcement gunfire in his home on May 05, 2011. We wish to honor Jose Guerena’s service to this nation and ensure that his death lights the spark which shall lawfully undo present-day policies which militarize our local peace officers and violate our veterans’ and gun owners’ Fourth Amendment rights.

Press contact — Arizona Oath Keepers state chapter President Ray Epps: 480-586-5145. Backup Press contact — Elias Alias — 406-285-6597 * eliasalias@gmail.com

The public is cordially invited to march and stand with Oath Keepers for this ceremony. All who cannot attend are encouraged to do what you can on Memorial Day in your own communities. A great example of local activity is given us by the Pahrump, Nevada Oath Keepers chapter. Enjoy reading their Proclamation here:

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/25/pahrump-oath-keepers-issue-proclamation/?cp=1#comment-29725

BigChiefFan
05-30-2011, 12:20 PM
Oath Keepers Rally to Honor Jose Guerena and Oppose SWAT Searches

Oath Keepers
May 27, 2011

Oath Keepers will muster at Tucson, Arizona, on Memorial Day, May 30, 2011.

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/S6NOx5Cx8Ws&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/S6NOx5Cx8Ws&hl=en_GB&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/25/oath-keepers-muster-_-tucson-info/

What — An Oath Keepers muster. Oath Keepers and friends will muster and march to the home of Mrs. Vanessa Guerena for a ceremony of memoriam for her late husband Jose Guerena, a U.S. Marine Corps veteran of the Iraq war.

When – 8:00 a.m. sharp Monday morning Memorial Day, May 30, 2011

Where – The intersection of West Valencia Road and South Wade Road. Take I-10 to I-19 South and exit West Valencia Road to South Wade Road, Tucson, Arizona. See below.

Who – Oath Keepers is calling for all veterans, National Guardsmen, active duty military, current-serving peace officers, firefighters, retired public servants, gun owners, veterans organizations, civic organizations, church groups, student groups, and other patriotic Americans.

Why — To stand with Oath Keepers at a memorial service for Jose Guerena, a war veteran who was killed by law-enforcement gunfire in his home on May 05, 2011. We wish to honor Jose Guerena’s service to this nation and ensure that his death lights the spark which shall lawfully undo present-day policies which militarize our local peace officers and violate our veterans’ and gun owners’ Fourth Amendment rights.

Press contact — Arizona Oath Keepers state chapter President Ray Epps: 480-586-5145. Backup Press contact — Elias Alias — 406-285-6597 * eliasalias@gmail.com

The public is cordially invited to march and stand with Oath Keepers for this ceremony. All who cannot attend are encouraged to do what you can on Memorial Day in your own communities. A great example of local activity is given us by the Pahrump, Nevada Oath Keepers chapter. Enjoy reading their Proclamation here:

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2011/05/25/pahrump-oath-keepers-issue-proclamation/?cp=1#comment-29725

God Bless America, baby! Thank God for true constitutionalists, the oathkeepers.

banyon
05-30-2011, 02:34 PM
None of this matters since it was not warranted in the 1st place.

What makes you say it was unwarranted?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 03:59 PM
What makes you say it was unwarranted?

For what reason did they kick in this poor guys door?

banyon
05-30-2011, 04:25 PM
For what reason did they kick in this poor guys door?

I don't know, and you don't either.

You aren't privy to the search warrant affidavit and don't know what info the police were relying on. Living in AZ and ex-military, this guy might have been working as an enforcer for the cartels for all you and I know. But a search with a warrant approved by a neutral judge is what the police are supposed to do under the 4th amendment, isn't it?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't know, and you don't either.

You aren't privy to the search warrant affidavit and don't know what info the police were relying on. Living in AZ and ex-military, this guy might have been working as an enforcer for the cartels for all you and I know. But a search with a warrant approved by a neutral judge is what the police are supposed to do under the 4th amendment, isn't it?

All we know for sure is the poor guy had nothing illegal and he was shot 71 times, seems fairly clear to me.

notorious
05-30-2011, 04:27 PM
All we know for sure is the poor guy had nothing illegal and he was shot 71 times, seems fairly clear to me.

He was "shot at" 71 times.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 04:28 PM
He was "shot at" 71 times.

ok

orange
05-30-2011, 04:36 PM
Correction
Posted: Friday, May 27, 2011 11:14 pm | Comments

It was initially reported that Jose Guerena was shot 60 times by five SWAT officers who fired 71 rounds in less than 10 seconds. The family was told by a doctor that Jose was shot 60 times, they told the Star. Preliminary reports from the Pima County Medical Examiner's Office state that Guerena died from 22 gunshot wounds, Dr. Gregory Hess said Friday.

Copyright 2011 Arizona Daily Star. All rights reserved. This

http://azstarnet.com/article_4705f51a-88f2-11e0-be34-001cc4c002e0.html

orange
05-30-2011, 04:40 PM
If anyone actually gives a shit, you're about four days behind in this thread.

Here: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_087950ff-b798-5fc2-baba-37c7c7d9fd6b.html

http://azstarnet.com/news/state-and-regional/article_6e8b6407-50d0-5d5f-8507-d102926df60b.html

banyon
05-30-2011, 04:44 PM
All we know for sure is the poor guy had nothing illegal and he was shot 71 times, seems fairly clear to me.

No, we don't know that. That's you making unwarranted assumptions again.

Authorities told KGUN9 that three other neighborhood homes were targeted Thursday, all tied to a narcotics conspiracy. They say a large amount of cash was found at one of the homes. But, not at the Guerena house; all they said they found there was "evidence pertinent to the case." At this time, officials aren't saying anything more. However, Vanessa Guerena has insisted there were no drugs or money in their home.

banyon
05-30-2011, 04:45 PM
Oh, and from Orange's helpful new link:

The raid netted drugs, large amounts of cash, bulletproof vests, about 30 cellphones and a stolen vehicle, records show, but no arrests have been made.

Jose Guerena, 26, his older brother, Alejandro Guerena, and Jose Celaya - a relative by marriage - were listed as suspects in an investigation of drug trafficking and home invasions, records show. Warrants were served at homes owned by Jose Guerena; Bertha Guerena, Jose's mother; and two homes owned by Jose and Graciela Celaya.

During a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion....

...Also in the dump truck, an officer detected the "distinct odor of decaying flesh," according to his report. He called a second officer to the area and they both agreed the smell was that of decaying flesh and was coming from the carpet in the trash, the report says. No body parts were found.

Three weeks before the raids, deputies were called to this address by a landscaper saying there were men with guns on the property. When deputies arrived, they found the doors to the home open and a puddle of blood on the floor, records show. Deputies did not find anyone inside, but they found traces of marijuana and a holster next to bloody footprints leading out of the home.

No way man! They should've let a plainclothes officer just knock at the door and ask Mr. Guerena if they could chat with him! These mean ol' cops were just picking on him over a little weed, I know my rights!!! :bong:

Brock
05-30-2011, 04:51 PM
Or just kill him! No need for pesky due process.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 04:54 PM
Oh, and from Orange's helpful new link:

The raid netted drugs, large amounts of cash, bulletproof vests, about 30 cellphones and a stolen vehicle, records show, but no arrests have been made.

Jose Guerena, 26, his older brother, Alejandro Guerena, and Jose Celaya - a relative by marriage - were listed as suspects in an investigation of drug trafficking and home invasions, records show. Warrants were served at homes owned by Jose Guerena; Bertha Guerena, Jose's mother; and two homes owned by Jose and Graciela Celaya.

During a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion....

...Also in the dump truck, an officer detected the "distinct odor of decaying flesh," according to his report. He called a second officer to the area and they both agreed the smell was that of decaying flesh and was coming from the carpet in the trash, the report says. No body parts were found.

Three weeks before the raids, deputies were called to this address by a landscaper saying there were men with guns on the property. When deputies arrived, they found the doors to the home open and a puddle of blood on the floor, records show. Deputies did not find anyone inside, but they found traces of marijuana and a holster next to bloody footprints leading out of the home.

No way man! They should've let a plainclothes officer just knock at the door and ask Mr. Guerena if they could chat with him! These mean ol' cops were just picking on him over a little weed, I know my rights!!! :bong:

Pulled out of context there Banyon, here is what was in the house in question..

• 9:33 a.m., Jose Guerena's house, 7100 block of South Redwater Drive. SWAT team members announce themselves, then knocked open the front door. Shots are fired and Jose is killed. His wife, Vanessa, and their 4-year-old son were not shot.

No drugs or large amounts of cash were found inside Jose Guerena's home, but detectives seized a Colt .38-caliber handgun, paperwork, tax returns including one with Jose and Graciela Celaya's name, insurance papers, bank statements and a bank card, reports show. Another report said detectives found body armor in a hallway closet and a U.S. Border Patrol hat in the garage.

orange
05-30-2011, 04:55 PM
During a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion....

To be fair, I don't think the Guerenas are suspects in that. Jose's wife's sister and her husband were the victims - I believe that's the home invasion they're talking about.

Still, it's clear the family business was "family business."

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:06 PM
Or just kill him! No need for pesky due process.


Assuming the other suspects in this case don't point assault rifles at police who announce their presence, then those people will get their day in court.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:09 PM
Pulled out of context there Banyon, here is what was in the house in question..

• 9:33 a.m., Jose Guerena's house, 7100 block of South Redwater Drive. SWAT team members announce themselves, then knocked open the front door. Shots are fired and Jose is killed. His wife, Vanessa, and their 4-year-old son were not shot.

No drugs or large amounts of cash were found inside Jose Guerena's home, but detectives seized a Colt .38-caliber handgun, paperwork, tax returns including one with Jose and Graciela Celaya's name, insurance papers, bank statements and a bank card, reports show. Another report said detectives found body armor in a hallway closet and a U.S. Border Patrol hat in the garage.

Yes it's clear that you don't want to focus on what was found in the other properties he owned.

I'm sure you have a border patrol hat in your closet too even though you haven't worked for them, right?

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:12 PM
To be fair, I don't think the Guerenas are suspects in that. Jose's wife's sister and her husband were the victims - I believe that's the home invasion they're talking about.

Still, it's clear the family business was "family business."

I think the statement means they are the suspects. I guess I read that differently.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 05:12 PM
Yes it's clear that you don't want to focus on what was found in the other properties he owned.

I'm sure you have a border patrol hat in your closet too even though you haven't worked for them, right?

A. I'm not the prosecuting attorney so no

B. Who says i don't have a Border Patrol hat in my closet? is it illegal? Will i get swat team'd?

WhitiE
05-30-2011, 05:14 PM
that was a lot of shooting for one guy....

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:14 PM
A. I'm not the prosecuting attorney so no

B. Who says i don't have a Border Patrol hat in my closet? is it illegal? Will i get swat team'd?


a: You're not the prosecuting attorney, so you don't understand why the evidence found at the other properties is relevant?

B: If you are also involved in a drug trafficking ring, are associated with a home invasion and double homicide, and leave decayed and bloody evidence at your other properties, then I would say yes there's a pretty high chance of the SWAT team coming to visit you.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:16 PM
I love all the morons on here thinking this guy had any idea who was at the door.

To be fair, he might have thought it was his buddies coming to retaliate over the double homicide or the dead bodies.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 05:20 PM
To be fair, he might have thought it was his buddies coming to retaliate over the double homicide or the dead bodies.

Speculate much?

orange
05-30-2011, 05:21 PM
I love all the morons on here thinking this guy had any idea who was at the door. that was a lot of shooting for one guy....

Hmmm, changed your mind, eh? Not before banyon caught you, though. You've got to be quick on that edit button around here.

Still, have a look:

<object width="560" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/hd_OJmTL3jk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/hd_OJmTL3jk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="349" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

What would have been your guess?

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:23 PM
Speculate much?

Er, the only thing you can do to figure out what someone who is deceased was thinking is to speculate.

But yeah, this is a great cause for liberty!

Let's pay attention only to the convenient parts that fit that narrative, right?

WhitiE
05-30-2011, 05:23 PM
Hmmm, changed your mind, eh? Not before banyon caught you, though. You've got to be quick on that edit button around here.

Still, have a look:



What would have been your guess?

Oh noes!

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Hmmm, changed your mind, eh? Not before banyon caught you, though. You've got to be quick on that edit button around here.

Still, have a look:



What would have been your guess?

At what point did they announce who they were? The siren a few seconds before they blew open the door?

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:27 PM
Oh noes!

Wasn't my intent to "catch you", just replied too quickly. :p

WhitiE
05-30-2011, 05:28 PM
I hadnt seen the video when I posted. Didnt even see there was a second page.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
At what point did they announce who they were? The siren a few seconds before they blew open the door?

The part where they yell "police search warrant"?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 05:30 PM
The part where they yell "police search warrant"?

I'm not hearing it, what part of the vid?

orange
05-30-2011, 05:34 PM
At what point did they announce who they were? The siren a few seconds before they blew open the door?

There was a lot yelled in that clip from several sources that I can't make out. I expect there will be an audio enhanced version eventually. In the mean time, two things are clear - the siren, and "bang bang bang" which I'm told is a radio signal that a flashbang grenade has been detonated (I think you can hear that, too) through a side or back window out of view.

After the door is blown open there's several seconds before the shooting starts. I don't see any way the guy didn't know they were (a) police or (b) police impostors.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:35 PM
I'm not hearing it, what part of the vid?

Well they didn't have a microphone at the door, but you can hear the yelling for about 10 seconds as the guy with the shield is at the door. (after the siren) From 00:17 to 00:34 on the video.

BigChiefFan
05-30-2011, 05:39 PM
The point that seems to be falling by the wayside is, he NEVER FIRED his gun.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:42 PM
The point that seems to be falling by the wayside is, he NEVER FIRED his gun.

In your view, the police should have to wait until they are fired upon?

BigChiefFan
05-30-2011, 05:46 PM
In your view, the police should have to wait until they are fired upon?Probably, considering they already outmanned him and had the element of surprise, as well. I thought it was standard police policy. DO NOT FIRE, unless fired upon. What's the point of the warrant, if they can just go in guns a blazin'? Kind of defeats the entire process, don't ya think?

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:46 PM
I think the worst part of this is that SWAT teams feel like they have to video tape their raids in the first place for the overly litigious criminals and the people second guessing their actions with hindsight and incomplete information.

HonestChieffan
05-30-2011, 05:47 PM
BCF...

Here is the point....

Do NOT Point guns at police. Even as a joke. Even more important at a swat team. This will get you dead.

One of the few times Banyon and I come down on the same side.

Swat guys do not deploy in battle dress locked and loaded to shake hands and give candy canes to cute children. They know to expect bad guys to do bad things starting with pointing said weapon at said swat guy. And that is seldom an effective way to say come on in I am innocent. Its a non-verbal that is hard to mistake.

banyon
05-30-2011, 05:50 PM
Probably, considering they already outmanned him and had the element of surprise, as well. I thought it was standard police policy. DO NOT FIRE, unless fired upon. What's the point of the warrant, if they can just go in guns a blazin'? Kind of defeats the entire process, don't ya think?

I guess I would say that there are some what should be obvious downsides to such a policy.

A deadly force policy requires a deadly threat, not a bullet that whizzes by you. If there's a guy with an assault rifle who aggressively postured and taking aim, then no, I don't believe that the cop should have to wait until there's a bullet in his skull or his partner's skull before taking action.

Saul Good
05-30-2011, 05:55 PM
To KILLER CLOWN and company, it's okay to back off your initial opinions in light of new evidence that completely exonerates the officers.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-30-2011, 05:58 PM
To KILLER CLOWN and company, it's okay to back off your initial opinions in light of new evidence that completely exonerates the officers.

I wouldn't go that far yet, the way this was handled still sucks. I haven't said a bad word about the Swat team in this thread yet however i think the way SWAT is used crosses many lines.

RNR
05-31-2011, 05:40 AM
Eat shit. Those guys volunteer to be on that team. They want to do that shit. When shit happens to them or when they pull meathead bullshit like this, I have no sympathy for them.

The militarization of our local police is a bad thing and is increasing. I know you might not mind living in a police state but I do.

You are as one of the biggest shitbags I have encountered here~

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 05:59 AM
Swat guys do not deploy in battle dress locked and loaded to shake hands and give candy canes to cute children. They know to expect bad guys to do bad things starting with pointing said weapon at said swat guy.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 06:00 AM
I guess I would say that there are some what should be obvious downsides to such a policy.

A deadly force policy requires a deadly threat, not a bullet that whizzes by you. If there's a guy with an assault rifle who aggressively postured and taking aim, then no, I don't believe that the cop should have to wait until there's a bullet in his skull or his partner's skull before taking action.

They had shields. They could have retreated from the home. There was no need to fill this guy full of lead.

The fact that we're Ok with the cops pulling military assaults on citizens blow me away. We don't let the real military work the citizens over, so let's just arm and train the cops to be every bit as dangerous and then turn *them* loose on the citizenry.

banyon
05-31-2011, 06:55 AM
They had shields. They could have retreated from the home. There was no need to fill this guy full of lead.

The fact that we're Ok with the cops pulling military assaults on citizens blow me away. We don't let the real military work the citizens over, so let's just arm and train the cops to be every bit as dangerous and then turn *them* loose on the citizenry.

Shield. Not shield(s). And I think a "retreat when threatened with a deadly weapon" policy for police would be completely impractical.

blaise
05-31-2011, 07:05 AM
Probably, considering they already outmanned him and had the element of surprise, as well. I thought it was standard police policy. DO NOT FIRE, unless fired upon. What's the point of the warrant, if they can just go in guns a blazin'? Kind of defeats the entire process, don't ya think?

Wait until someone fires at you before you shoot? That seems really dumb.

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 07:34 AM
Shield. Not shield(s). And I think a "retreat when threatened with a deadly weapon" policy for police would be completely impractical.

Yeah, I say we give them mortars instead. Think about how safe we could all be if they just shelled entire neighborhoods before they went in with a warrant. We've criminalized so much that now we feel the need to invade citizen's homes with military weapons even in cases where we don't feel that person poses an immediate threat to anyone else. It's beyond stupid.

But hey, they got that guy's bank statements and tax records. Good thing, because surely there was no other way to get those. The only copies in existence were in his house.

We're clearly not going to agree here.

Radar Chief
05-31-2011, 07:40 AM
So what was this guy doing that they sent in SWAT to serve a warrant?
All I see in the OP is that he was part of a narcotics investigation.

banyon
05-31-2011, 07:45 AM
Yeah, I say we give them mortars instead. Think about how safe we could all be if they just shelled entire neighborhoods before they went in with a warrant. We've criminalized so much that now we feel the need to invade citizen's homes with military weapons even in cases where we don't feel that person poses an immediate threat to anyone else. It's beyond stupid.

But hey, they got that guy's bank statements and tax records. Good thing, because surely there was no other way to get those. The only copies in existence were in his house.

We're clearly not going to agree here.

Based on the info in the link that orange posted that shows this guy was connected as a suspect in home invasions and murders and was known to be heavily armed I would say that we're not going to agree, no.

This was a textbook case of when you call in SWAT. Even the guy's wife asked him "what the f*ck he was doing" when he went for his weapon. She also said that he told her "she does not need to know what he does when he goes out".

We'd better hope that the Mexican cartels don't start pushing things across the border, or then perhaps you'll also realize that Andy Griffith without a gun isn't going to work against militarized paramilitary criminals.

Radar Chief
05-31-2011, 07:48 AM
Based on the info in the link that orange posted that shows this guy was connected as a suspect in home invasions and murders and was known to be heavily armed I would say that we're not going to agree, no.

This was a textbook case of when you call in SWAT. Even the guy's wife asked him "what the f*ck he was doing" when he went for his weapon. She also said that he told her "she does not need to know what he does when he goes out".

We'd better hope that the Mexican cartels don't start pushing things across the border, or then perhaps you'll also realize that Andy Griffith without a gun isn't going to work against militarized paramilitary criminals.

Ah, thanks. I’ll go read that.

RNR
05-31-2011, 07:54 AM
They had shields. They could have retreated from the home. There was no need to fill this guy full of lead.

The fact that we're Ok with the cops pulling military assaults on citizens blow me away. We don't let the real military work the citizens over, so let's just arm and train the cops to be every bit as dangerous and then turn *them* loose on the citizenry.

And then what? Police should retreat when faced with a suspect who has a weapon?

Saul Good
05-31-2011, 07:56 AM
I think the worst part of this is that SWAT teams feel like they have to video tape their raids in the first place for the overly litigious criminals and the people second guessing their actions with hindsight and incomplete information.

I don't see anything wrong with this. If you are using that level of force, it should be recorded whenever possible. This protects the police and citizenry alike.

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 07:59 AM
We'd better hope that the Mexican cartels don't start pushing things across the border, or then perhaps you'll also realize that Andy Griffith without a gun isn't going to work against militarized paramilitary criminals.

The war is coming to America if it isn't already here. There's an immense amount of money in it and very little risk for the people at the top of the food chain. No amount of gunning down low-level enforcers and dealers is going to stop it, no matter how many innocent people (including cops) die doing it. The more violent and dangerous it becomes the more money there will be in doing it.

If you can't curb the demand (and you can't) you're only fooling yourself thinking you can win a war against drugs.

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 08:03 AM
And then what? Police should retreat when faced with a suspect who has a weapon?

They had him cornered and he wasn't able to threaten anyone but his own family. It's not like this guy was roaming around a mall.

A lot of you guys are losing sight of the fact that the cops put themselves in this situation by choosing to arrest the guy by serving a no-knock warrant. They could have arrested his ass walking out of work mere hours before at a point where he didn't have an AR-15.

HonestChieffan
05-31-2011, 08:09 AM
They had him cornered and he wasn't able to threaten anyone but his own family. It's not like this guy was roaming around a mall.

A lot of you guys are losing sight of the fact that the cops put themselves in this situation by choosing to arrest the guy by serving a no-knock warrant. They could have arrested his ass walking out of work mere hours before at a point where he didn't have an AR-15.

"this guy was connected as a suspect in home invasions and murders and was known to be heavily armed"

With that understanding, would you assume that he is going to give himself up when confronted? My assumption is a guy that connected to violent behavior is not going to have a high regard for a police officer or his life. And a police officer who would attempt to get this chap without taking every precaution is a cop who will not find himself reaching retirement age.

Didnt the suspect put himself in this position by being party to criminal behavior in the first place and by drawing down on the cops?

Saul Good
05-31-2011, 08:09 AM
They had him cornered and he wasn't able to threaten anyone but his own family. It's not like this guy was roaming around a mall.

A lot of you guys are losing sight of the fact that the cops put themselves in this situation by choosing to arrest the guy by serving a no-knock warrant. They could have arrested his ass walking out of work mere hours before at a point where he didn't have an AR-15.

And this guy chose to put himself in that position by pointing an AR-15 at a SWAT team. Its not a mystery.

RNR
05-31-2011, 08:10 AM
They had him cornered and he wasn't able to threaten anyone but his own family. It's not like this guy was roaming around a mall.

A lot of you guys are losing sight of the fact that the cops put themselves in this situation by choosing to arrest the guy by serving a no-knock warrant. They could have arrested his ass walking out of work mere hours before at a point where he didn't have an AR-15.

So what is the feedback when they do the take down and he draws and fires? Maybe a kid or an old lady gets caught up in the cross fire. Bad guy dead no one else injured I am ok with it and it would not have mattered to me if they shot him 300 times~

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 08:20 AM
So what is the feedback when they do the take down and he draws and fires? Maybe a kid or an old lady gets caught up in the cross fire. Bad guy dead no one else injured I am ok with it and it would not have mattered to me if they shot him 300 times~

He's suspected of maybe being a bad guy. That part's pretty fucking critical here in the US.

You're telling me some guy the cops say is a cold-blooded killer, who is also an ex-Marine, who would have killed any cop on sight, was sitting there behind cover with an AR-15 but didn't manage to get a shot off? That's the game here? We know he's a bad guy because he owned a gun?

HonestChieffan
05-31-2011, 08:27 AM
He's suspected of maybe being a bad guy. That part's pretty ****ing critical here in the US.

You're telling me some guy the cops say is a cold-blooded killer, who is also an ex-Marine, who would have killed any cop on sight, was sitting there behind cover with an AR-15 but didn't manage to get a shot off? That's the game here? We know he's a bad guy because he owned a gun?

Ed Masterson: I’m just saying I believe I could’ve talked those guns off him.

Wyatt Earp: If I were you, I’d look for another line of work. Politics, maybe.

Bat Masterson: Ed’s got a different style is all, Wyatt. People like it.

Wyatt: You could get killed in this line of work, Ed. You could get people around you killed. This is a harsh land, Ed. It doesn’t suffer fools.

Ed: I’m not a fool, Wyatt.

Wyatt: No, you’re not. But you’re not a deliberate man, Ed. I don’t sense that about you. You’re too affable.

Simplex3
05-31-2011, 08:33 AM
So basically you've got nothing?

RNR
05-31-2011, 08:34 AM
He's suspected of maybe being a bad guy. That part's pretty ****ing critical here in the US.

You're telling me some guy the cops say is a cold-blooded killer, who is also an ex-Marine, who would have killed any cop on sight, was sitting there behind cover with an AR-15 but didn't manage to get a shot off? That's the game here? We know he's a bad guy because he owned a gun?

Yes it is and I assure you when the police show up with guns pointed holding an AR-15 is a critical mistake. I do not buy them just randomly attacking this guy and killing him~

Saul Good
05-31-2011, 08:47 AM
So basically you've got nothing?

Why do you keep pushing in more chips when everyone at the table has seen your losing hand? Its preposterous. The guy was involved in some pretty heinous shit*, he pulled an assault rifle on a SWAT team, and he died of lead poisoning.

I'm not the judge, so I'm going to disperse with the "allegedly" nonsense. The video and other information that has since surfaced is enough for me to come to a conclusion. This guy deserved what he got.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-31-2011, 08:57 AM
Why do you keep pushing in more chips when everyone at the table has seen your losing hand? Its preposterous. The guy was involved in some pretty heinous shit*, he pulled an assault rifle on a SWAT team, and he died of lead poisoning.

I'm not the judge, so I'm going to disperse with the "allegedly" nonsense. The video and other information that has since surfaced is enough for me to come to a conclusion. This guy deserved what he got.

All i've seen is allegations, and a low quality vid that shows little. Innocent until proven guilty.

Saul Good
05-31-2011, 09:03 AM
All i've seen is allegations, and a low quality vid that shows little. Innocent until proven guilty.

Pulling an assault rifle on a SWAT team constitutes proof enough for me.

blaise
05-31-2011, 09:09 AM
All i've seen is allegations, and a low quality vid that shows little. Innocent until proven guilty.

So, the cops are innocent of excessive force then, until proven guilty.

RNR
05-31-2011, 09:23 AM
So, the cops are innocent of excessive force then, until proven guilty.

Guess not~

RustShack
05-31-2011, 09:47 AM
Cops are pieces of shit.

RNR
05-31-2011, 09:59 AM
Cops are pieces of shit.

Till you need one~

vailpass
05-31-2011, 10:13 AM
Cops are pieces of shit.

The man been holding you down there home slice? Jack stompin' your wonder bread ass all up and down that mother****er while your home boys in the 515 tryin' to get they swerve on?

LMAOwhite kid in Ames, IA be REPRESENTIN' YO!!!!

DJ's left nut
05-31-2011, 10:21 AM
Probably, considering they already outmanned him and had the element of surprise, as well. I thought it was standard police policy. DO NOT FIRE, unless fired upon. What's the point of the warrant, if they can just go in guns a blazin'? Kind of defeats the entire process, don't ya think?

Wow.

You're stunningly ignorant.

I'll just leave it at that.

BigChiefFan
05-31-2011, 11:13 AM
Wow.

You're stunningly ignorant.

I'll just leave it at that.
Now why do you have to go and use a personal attack? Try discussing the topic, instead of juvenille bullshit. You might not agree with my comment, but you don't know fuck all about me or my education.

DJ's left nut
05-31-2011, 11:49 AM
Now why do you have to go and use a personal attack? Try discussing the topic, instead of juvenille bullshit. You might not agree with my comment, but you don't know fuck all about me or my education.

No, it's not personal, it's factual.

If you believe police policy is not to fire until fired upon, you've been watching too much Top Gun and are simply unaware of the facts.

Someone who makes factual assertions with the requisite knowledge to make them is, in fact, ignorant of what they're speaking of.

Had I called you a impotent half-wit, that would've been personal; I did no such thing. I simply pointed out that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about, and should therefore refrain from doing so.

And I'll stand by that.

WilliamTheIrish
05-31-2011, 12:00 PM
I think the worst part of this is that SWAT teams feel like they have to video tape their raids in the first place for the overly litigious criminals and the people second guessing their actions with hindsight and incomplete information.

I disagree.

There wouldn't be a need for video if these type of raids were textbook. They aren't. And if it protects the citizens and the police, I'm all for it.

DJ's left nut
05-31-2011, 12:06 PM
I disagree.

There wouldn't be a need for video if these type of raids were textbook. They aren't. And if it protects the citizens and the police, I'm all for it.

Agreed.

Taping stuff like that makes sure SWAT does as they're supposed to do just as much as it ensures that over-litigious citizens don't have a leg to stand on when they say things like "there were no sirens" or that there was no announcement.

This could have stayed even uglier than it already is but/for the video. Then again, without the video in place, maybe SWAT decides to just kick the door in and get to blazing. In either event, the eye don't lie. SWAT knows that and now we know how SWAT acted in light of that knowledge.

Seems like one of the few safeguards we have that can cut both ways.

BigChiefFan
05-31-2011, 12:44 PM
No, it's not personal, it's factual.

If you believe police policy is not to fire until fired upon, you've been watching too much Top Gun and are simply unaware of the facts.

Someone who makes factual assertions with the requisite knowledge to make them is, in fact, ignorant of what they're speaking of.

Had I called you a impotent half-wit, that would've been personal; I did no such thing. I simply pointed out that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about, and should therefore refrain from doing so.

And I'll stand by that.Ha. You are so full of shit, you make it sound like it is so cut and dry, that police
shouldn't show any restraint. Bullshit, read it and weep...

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

blaise
05-31-2011, 12:55 PM
Ha. You are so full of shit, you make it sound like it is so cut and dry, that police
shouldn't show any restraint. Bullshit, read it and weep...

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

That's 15 pages. Explain what point you're making. Are you saying cops are supposed to let shoot someone before firing back?

DJ's left nut
05-31-2011, 01:07 PM
Ha. You are so full of shit, you make it sound like it is so cut and dry, that police
shouldn't show any restraint. Bullshit, read it and weep...

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

Read what and weep? Congrats, you've forwarded a study that says, in essence, "We don't really know what the perfect answer is, so we're going to do more study." It says that some shootings are not necessary and that some factors may not cause shootings as we once thought (while others do). It also makes no attempt to advise as to policy or reach any legitimately meaningful conclusions. As to the rest of your retort: Congratulations, what you lack in reading comprehension you more than make up for in your ability to construct a straw man - nicely done.

The 'standard' policy is that an officer is trained to use deadly force only in the event that he is facing an imminent threat of critical bodily injury (there are also rules as they relate to fleeing suspects that represent an immediate danger to the public health, but that's not what we're discussing). The language varies a little bit based on the department, but that's the crux of it. Officers are not trained to wait until they're shot at to return fire.

When an AR-15 is pointed at you, you are facing an imminent threat of critical bodily injury and are free to fire.

The lesson: Don't point assault rifles at law enforcement - it's a really bad idea.

RNR
05-31-2011, 02:31 PM
The man been holding you down there home slice? Jack stompin' your wonder bread ass all up and down that mother****er while your home boys in the 515 tryin' to get they swerve on?

LMAOwhite kid in Ames, IA be REPRESENTIN' YO!!!!

LMAO

banyon
05-31-2011, 02:44 PM
I disagree.

There wouldn't be a need for video if these type of raids were textbook. They aren't. And if it protects the citizens and the police, I'm all for it.

Fair enough. I could live with such a policy if it helps with the tradeoff that comes with the public concerns of militarization of police tactics.

WilliamTheIrish
05-31-2011, 04:07 PM
The case of Steven Shively in Topeka, Ks. back in the mid 90's formed my opinion of local LE's using military tactics on the citizens.
It's dangerous to the population and tje cops.
Posted via Mobile Device

banyon
05-31-2011, 05:42 PM
All i've seen is allegations, and a low quality vid that shows little. Innocent until proven guilty.

This is really a red herring. This guy will forever remain innocent until proven guilty because he is dead and you cannot prosecute dead people. Where, in reality, law enforcement may have had plenty to proceed with a case against him, you've set a standard that by definition can never be met.

RustShack
05-31-2011, 08:46 PM
The man been holding you down there home slice? Jack stompin' your wonder bread ass all up and down that mother****er while your home boys in the 515 tryin' to get they swerve on?

LMAOwhite kid in Ames, IA be REPRESENTIN' YO!!!!

The town I'm from had some problems a few years ago. The Police Chief and his assistant or whatever raped my friends mom. Few weeks later some cop there tased a guy to death. Oh and I typically got picked on by police because of my last name. I had distant relatives with the same last name that had some run ins or whatever so they loved me even though I normally did nothing wrong.

banyon
05-31-2011, 09:27 PM
The town I'm from had some problems a few years ago. The Police Chief and his assistant or whatever raped my friends mom. Few weeks later some cop there tased a guy to death. Oh and I typically got picked on by police because of my last name. I had distant relatives with the same last name that had some run ins or whatever so they loved me even though I normally did nothing wrong.

Jesus, do you live in the movie Deliverance or something?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-31-2011, 09:36 PM
This is really a red herring. This guy will forever remain innocent until proven guilty because he is dead and you cannot prosecute dead people. Where, in reality, law enforcement may have had plenty to proceed with a case against him, you've set a standard that by definition can never be met.

True which means if Justice were to be served he wouldn't have been shot 22 times.

stevieray
05-31-2011, 09:46 PM
71 shots? for one guy? it reads like a mob killing on steroids.

Overkill to say the least...way too trigger happy authoritarians to say the worst.

banyon
05-31-2011, 09:57 PM
True which means if Justice were to be served he wouldn't have been shot 22 times.

It's too bad he didn't give himself that opportunity.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-31-2011, 10:14 PM
It's too bad he didn't give himself that opportunity.

He had no control over the Sheriffs decision to swat team him now did he?

WilliamTheIrish
06-01-2011, 06:23 AM
http://cjonline.com/stories/100905/loc_patterson.shtml


This link provides details of the aftermath of the SWAT raid. Several of the officers did not have stellar careers.

Brock
06-01-2011, 09:07 AM
They lied when they said he shot at them, they probably are lying about some other things too.

"well....he wasn't actually POINTING it at us...."

Fishpicker
06-06-2011, 07:27 PM
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_8e492a7c-9078-11e0-8ee2-001cc4c002e0.html

The 26-year-old man shot and killed by a SWAT team during a raid last month was struck 22 times and a toxicology exam showed there were no traces of drugs in his blood at the time of death, according to an autopsy report released Monday.

SWAT officers fired 71 rounds at Jose Guerena from the doorway of his home while serving a search warrant the morning of May 5, officials from Pima County Sheriff’s Department have said. Less than a third of those shots hit Guerena, leaving some 49 rounds passing through walls and some hitting nearby homes, according to reports released by the department last week.

Guerena’s toxicology report showed there were no traces of drugs and only a low level of ethanol — 0.02 percent — some or all of which may have been produced after his death, a medical examiner from the Pima County Medical Examine’s Office wrote.

The report showed most of Guerena’s gunshot wounds were to his legs and arms. He was struck three times on his torso and grazed by a bullet on the head, according to the autopsy report.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that SWAT team is the epitome of recklessness. they turned a neighborhood into a practice range and then tried to justify what they did by claiming the victim was part of a vast drug running conspiracy. what was that bit about they thought he murdered someone, rolled him up into a carpet, smoked weed at the crime scene and then dropped his gun holster because he was so high? all that was some BS.

Oh and those SWAT guys cant shoot for shit. seriously, its no wonder they held off paramedics for an hour so he could bleed out. they shot 71 rounds and there wasn't one mortal wound. pathetic.

demonhero
06-06-2011, 08:54 PM
I don't know how SWAT works, but I'm sure they knew my brother was a former Marine, and that he just got of work. For all we know he probably missed the sound of the sirens, and woke up to his wife going all ape shit. He could be thinking should I look out the window or do I have time to grab my rifle and secure the family. We do know for a fact that this particular SWAT team cant shoot like us. This incident looks bad for SWAT, and pisses me off that we cant prove if Guerena was innocent or guilty.

banyon
06-06-2011, 09:58 PM
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_8e492a7c-9078-11e0-8ee2-001cc4c002e0.html

The 26-year-old man shot and killed by a SWAT team during a raid last month was struck 22 times and a toxicology exam showed there were no traces of drugs in his blood at the time of death, according to an autopsy report released Monday.

SWAT officers fired 71 rounds at Jose Guerena from the doorway of his home while serving a search warrant the morning of May 5, officials from Pima County Sheriff’s Department have said. Less than a third of those shots hit Guerena, leaving some 49 rounds passing through walls and some hitting nearby homes, according to reports released by the department last week.

Guerena’s toxicology report showed there were no traces of drugs and only a low level of ethanol — 0.02 percent — some or all of which may have been produced after his death, a medical examiner from the Pima County Medical Examine’s Office wrote.

The report showed most of Guerena’s gunshot wounds were to his legs and arms. He was struck three times on his torso and grazed by a bullet on the head, according to the autopsy report.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that SWAT team is the epitome of recklessness. they turned a neighborhood into a practice range and then tried to justify what they did by claiming the victim was part of a vast drug running conspiracy. what was that bit about they thought he murdered someone, rolled him up into a carpet, smoked weed at the crime scene and then dropped his gun holster because he was so high? all that was some BS.

Oh and those SWAT guys cant shoot for shit. seriously, its no wonder they held off paramedics for an hour so he could bleed out. they shot 71 rounds and there wasn't one mortal wound. pathetic.

1. You don't think that (rapidly) fatal wounds can occur in your legs or arms?

2. You think that all drug dealers are also users and should have traces of drugs in their system?

Fishpicker
06-06-2011, 11:24 PM
1. as long as the bullets don't rupture the brachial artery or femoral artery, then no, they aren't mortal wounds. (unless medical attention is kept away from the victim for an hour)

2. that's not the point and you know it. somewhere, earlier in the thread, someone had posted a bit saying that Jose and his associates had committed murder, disposed of the body, smoked weed at the crime scene and left behind a gun holster. that bit was just so far out there, its really hard to take it seriously.

Banyon: the way you defend everything related to murder and collateral damage makes you sound like Raoul Duke.

orange
06-06-2011, 11:35 PM
2. that's not the point and you know it. somewhere, earlier in the thread, someone had posted a bit saying that Jose and his associates had committed murder, disposed of the body, smoked weed at the crime scene and left behind a gun holster. that bit was just so far out there, its really hard to take it seriously.

You mean this?:

Three weeks before the raids, deputies were called to this address by a landscaper saying there were men with guns on the property. When deputies arrived, they found the doors to the home open and a puddle of blood on the floor, records show. Deputies did not find anyone inside, but they found traces of marijuana and a holster next to bloody footprints leading out of the home.

Three weeks before the raids. Hmmm. At a different site. Hmmm.

I wonder if you might want to rethink things a bit.

Article here: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_087950ff-b798-5fc2-baba-37c7c7d9fd6b.html

Fishpicker
06-06-2011, 11:53 PM
yes that's the article.

does that have anything to do with Jose?

no. I don't need to rethink it. the burden of proof is still on the state.

even if Jose was involved in some criminality, that doesn't excuse the cops putting an entire neighborhood at risk with their errant gunfire.

orange
06-07-2011, 12:03 AM
yes that's the article.

does that have anything to do with Jose?

Yes, it does. It was one of his family's other houses - that was also raided simultaneously.

no. I don't need to rethink it. the burden of proof is still on the state.

I think you do because you obviously thought they were talking about the house and day where Guereno was killed. The fact that he had no drugs in his system - which you emphasized - is relevant how? Because you thought that article (or whatever was posted) claimed that Guereno was high when he was shot. And it's clear that you still haven't read the article or anything else about the investigation.


even if Jose was involved in some criminality, that doesn't excuse the cops putting an entire neighborhood at risk with their errant gunfire.

He didn't have to brandish his weapon and get killed.

Fishpicker
06-07-2011, 12:52 AM
Yes, it does. It was one of his family's other houses - that was also raided simultaneously.



I think you do because you obviously thought they were talking about the house and day where Guereno was killed. The fact that he had no drugs in his system - which you emphasized - is relevant how? Because you thought that article (or whatever was posted) claimed that Guereno was high when he was shot. And it's clear that you still haven't read the article or anything else about the investigation.




He didn't have to brandish his weapon and get killed.

I just don't buy it. they're saying this guy and several family members killed other members of the same family and robbed them. they moved a bunch of furniture, tracked pools of blood all over the place, left the smell of decaying flesh everywhere they went, dragged marijuana around and left traces of that everywhere. the police found all of that and they found guns and gun paraphernalia and cash and drugs. but no arrests had been made at the time when this article was published. and they killed the guy they were after. Oh and they haven't found any bodies.

sorry man. this shit is convoluted. its beyond me and its beyond you. and I promise you I have read the article multiple times and I have had this same discussion on multiple message boards. you aren't privy to any info that i don't have. this shit is gonna have to go through the courts. what a mess. you can thank those heros on the SWAT team for that. this whole thing got real sloppy and if the SWAT members had just done their work by the book, they could secure convictions much more easily and take the suspects into custody without endangering entire families.