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jiveturkey
05-16-2011, 02:44 PM
There's always a discussion or two popping up about the end of civilization as we know it. Stock piling guns/ammo, starting a garden, buying gold, buying a backpack full of food that last 30 days from Glenn Beck, buying a bunker...

A buddy and I were discussing World War Z (zombie book) and he made a point that puts an end to all of these end of times discussions.

If nobody is manning the chemical plants and nuclear plants we're all dead. Doesn't matter how much gold you have or how much ammo. Once those reactors melt down this entire country is going to be continuously doused in radiation.

Either way I found it to be an interesting twist.

Demonpenz
05-16-2011, 02:49 PM
sorry for your loss

Stewie
05-16-2011, 03:33 PM
Chemical plants? We've had one of the worst nuclear disasters ever in Japan. How are you doing?

jiveturkey
05-16-2011, 03:42 PM
Chemical plants? We've had one of the worst nuclear disasters ever in Japan. How are you doing?
I'm fine. Thanks for asking.

I'm not sure what he meant by chemical plants but I'd image that poisonous gasses that have to be stored under refrigerated conditions would eventually leak out. Highly corrosive chemicals would likely find a way out eventually.

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 03:49 PM
Not to add to everyone's stress level on this but Stephen Hawking was just interviewed and is pretty sure there is no heaven.

And he's considered pretty smart I guess.

chasedude
05-16-2011, 03:54 PM
Not to add to everyone's stress level on this but Stephen Hawking was just interviewed and is pretty sure there is no heaven.

And he's considered pretty smart I guess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

I happen to agree with him.

RedNeckRaider
05-16-2011, 04:09 PM
Not to add to everyone's stress level on this but Stephen Hawking was just interviewed and is pretty sure there is no heaven.

And he's considered pretty smart I guess.

He is and I think he is right...cue the music....

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_eyFiClAzq8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/L_XFMCgeI7c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BucEyedPea
05-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Civilization already ended a while ago. We're livin' in the Dark Ages which are about to get darker.

CrazyPhuD
05-16-2011, 04:36 PM
There's always a discussion or two popping up about the end of civilization as we know it. Stock piling guns/ammo, starting a garden, buying gold, buying a backpack full of food that last 30 days from Glenn Beck, buying a bunker...

A buddy and I were discussing World War Z (zombie book) and he made a point that puts an end to all of these end of times discussions.

If nobody is manning the chemical plants and nuclear plants we're all dead. Doesn't matter how much gold you have or how much ammo. Once those reactors melt down this entire country is going to be continuously doused in radiation.

Either way I found it to be an interesting twist.

LMAO

No offense but yea...your friend needs his head examined. When it comes to nuclear accidents Chernobyl is about close to a completely uncontrolled accident as you will find. For that event, ~11K sq/miles were effected to a moderate degree. With ~100 nuclear plants and no overlap between plants we'd have 1.1 million sq miles of potential effect(not all of which is critical). Considering the US is 9+million sq miles of area you're talking about ~1/8 of the area of the us. That also assumes the reactors weren't shut down, if they were the area affected would likely be significantly less. Even so while cancer rates would go up it's unlikely large numbers of people would die outright. In a post civilization world I doubt you'd live that long for cancer to be a significant killer.

For chemical leaks it presumes that the concentration of the leak will be high enough to kill. With a traditional leak that's unlikely to be the case(at least anything other than very close). With gasses you'd almost need them to be heavier than air, because they would have to stick closer to the ground to kill you.

In short those issues I wouldn't worry about(unless you live next to a nuke plant), far more things will kill you than those.

jiveturkey
05-16-2011, 04:46 PM
It's definitely not an issue any of us were taking seriously. It was just a fun conversation.

Now to play devils advocate (keep in mind I don't know shit about the operations of a nuclear facility). If a plant was to be abandoned would radiation continue pouring out? Chernobyl was buried thus ending it's continued threat.

If the plant just becomes a contentious source of radiation wouldn't the affected area be much larger since the winds will carry it?

KILLER_CLOWN
05-16-2011, 04:52 PM
Get right with the Lord, were not long for the physical world anyways. Also be of good cheer as the Kingdom of God is at hand. ;)

orange
05-16-2011, 05:07 PM
LMAO

No offense but yea...your friend needs his head examined. When it comes to nuclear accidents Chernobyl is about close to a completely uncontrolled accident as you will find. For that event, ~11K sq/miles were effected to a moderate degree.

Chernobyl "only" affected "~11K sq/miles" or whatever because hundreds of people worked around the clock for months at great personal sacrifice (obtained at the point of a gun) to contain it.

No offense but yea... you're only fooling yourself.

Otter
05-16-2011, 05:28 PM
Radioactive zombies for the win!

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 05:31 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

I happen to agree with him.I'm not advocating one way or the other. I'm just worried that not only will I be disappointed, but also ticked off I wasted so much time in catechism and church when I was a kid.

Pants
05-16-2011, 05:32 PM
Get right with the Lord, were not long for the physical world anyways. Also be of good cheer as the Kingdom of God is at hand. ;)

Stephen Hawking says there is no heaven and he's like 1,000,000 times smarter than you.

Pants
05-16-2011, 05:33 PM
I'm not advocating one way or the other. I'm just worried that not only will I be disappointed, but also ticked off I wasted so much time in catechism and church when I was a kid.

You know what having a dreamless night of sleep feels like? Well Stephen Hawking says that's what death is like. You won't be disappointed nor will you be happy, you just won't be aware of anything at all, not even darkness.

If that isn't depressing, I don't WTF is.

Okie_Apparition
05-16-2011, 06:13 PM
Hide in a Missouri cave until the idiots run out of ammo, about 6 months.

Dave Lane
05-16-2011, 06:22 PM
I will say one thing in this thread. It shows what I'm talking about. 300 years ago no way 5 people in a group say we don't believe in god and its no big deal. The age of magic is coming to a close and we are all witnesses to it. Pretty cool beans in my book,

Brock
05-16-2011, 06:33 PM
I'm fine. Thanks for asking.

I'm not sure what he meant by chemical plants but I'd image that poisonous gasses that have to be stored under refrigerated conditions would eventually leak out. Highly corrosive chemicals would likely find a way out eventually.

LMAO

Dave Lane
05-16-2011, 06:35 PM
Radioactive zombies for the win!

I like playing Fallout a lot. Not sure I want to live it though.

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 06:44 PM
I will say one thing in this thread. It shows what I'm talking about. 300 years ago no way 5 people in a group say we don't believe in god and its no big deal. The age of magic is coming to a close and we are all witnesses to it. Pretty cool beans in my book,

So you don't believe in an after life at all? You just shut down and your 'soul' doesn't transcend to another place? I don't mean cloud like heaven. Just some other dimension.

I'll bet you a case you're wrong.

Dave Lane
05-16-2011, 06:49 PM
I'd happily pay up times 1000 if it were true. Could be a lot of fun. I'd love it. that said I don't want to take your case :)

Simplex3
05-16-2011, 06:49 PM
So you don't believe in an after life at all? You just shut down and your 'soul' doesn't transcend to another place? I don't mean cloud like heaven. Just some other dimension.

I'll bet you a case you're wrong.

There is zero evidence to support your case.

The typical argument religious people give is the problem of origin. "Where did the stuff the universe is made from come from?"

The problem they don't examine is that religion has the same origin problem. Where did the god or gods come from? What made him/them?

Dave Lane
05-16-2011, 06:52 PM
So you don't believe in an after life at all? You just shut down and your 'soul' doesn't transcend to another place? I don't mean cloud like heaven. Just some other dimension.

And this is the thing that seems to be at a core of belief in the supernatural. Why is it so hard to believe you just vanish into that the same dreamless sleep you had before you existed? People really seem to have a tough time with this one and I don't know why. Its totally what I expect.

Dave Lane
05-16-2011, 06:54 PM
There is zero evidence to support your case.

The typical argument religious people give is the problem of origin. "Where did the stuff the universe is made from come from?"

The problem they don't examine is that religion has the same origin problem. Where did the god or gods come from? What made him/them?

Exactly my friend. Exactly.

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 06:57 PM
I'd happily pay up times 1000 if it were true. Could be a lot of fun. I'd love it. that said I don't want to take your case :)Either you hope I'm right or you're real bad at making bets. ;)

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 07:05 PM
There is zero evidence to support your case.

The typical argument religious people give is the problem of origin. "Where did the stuff the universe is made from come from?"

The problem they don't examine is that religion has the same origin problem. Where did the god or gods come from? What made him/them?
I know I have zero evidence. So does any other theory.

I understand the who made God question.

My question is this.....if there was no universe upon universe....the ones we can see and prove are there....what would take their physical place if they didn't exist? The answer doesn't matter because what ever it is has to be built or put there somehow, some way.

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 07:12 PM
And this is the thing that seems to be at a core of belief in the supernatural. Why is it so hard to believe you just vanish into that the same dreamless sleep you had before you existed? People really seem to have a tough time with this one and I don't know why. Its totally what I expect.I don't think it is hard to believe that. I just think you're not thinking outside of the box (cross thread) by not thinking it through.

Sure we are all direct descendants of chemical reactions. The question is how did those chemical reactions start? Where did the building blocks come from?

I'm not arguing we might just fade away. I'm hoping the theory is wrong.

Simplex3
05-16-2011, 07:25 PM
I know I have zero evidence. So does any other theory.

No, there are theories to support the scientific ideas. There's a self-contradicting book that "supports" the Christian ideas.

I understand the who made God question.

My question is this.....if there was no universe upon universe....the ones we can see and prove are there....what would take their physical place if they didn't exist? The answer doesn't matter because what ever it is has to be built or put there somehow, some way.

The multiverse theory doesn't require you to have a soul for it to be right.

And can I point out that you say you understand the implications of the origin problem, and then use that problem as your proof of God right there at the end?

Hog Farmer
05-16-2011, 07:31 PM
The only way the world can end is if we run out of jizz. And that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime !

Okie_Apparition
05-16-2011, 07:51 PM
Where there is jizz, there is a way
The Jayhawks already did it 2 seasons before Blue Wings Rising

mlyonsd
05-16-2011, 08:12 PM
No, there are theories to support the scientific ideas. There's a self-contradicting book that "supports" the Christian ideas.



The multiverse theory doesn't require you to have a soul for it to be right.

And can I point out that you say you understand the implications of the origin problem, and then use that problem as your proof of God right there at the end?First off, I'm not a bible thumper. I can appreciate those that follow the book though. All religions are paths made up by humans to get them through this 'life'. Anyone mocking them is small minded IMO because they really don't have the answer either.

To your second point, no scientific theory answers my question that you avoided. Sure you can point at theories that explain expanding univerises, blah blah blah, but the basic question is left unanswered.

The arguments and theories made by scientists today could prove to be the same that thought the world was flat in 1400.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-16-2011, 11:10 PM
Stephen Hawking says there is no heaven and he's like 1,000,000 times smarter than you.

He's been wrong so many times it is ridiculous.

KILLER_CLOWN
05-16-2011, 11:13 PM
There is zero evidence to support your case.

The typical argument religious people give is the problem of origin. "Where did the stuff the universe is made from come from?"

The problem they don't examine is that religion has the same origin problem. Where did the god or gods come from? What made him/them?

You have to crawl before you can walk, truth be known collectively we can't find our arse with both hands.

CrazyPhuD
05-17-2011, 02:00 AM
Chernobyl "only" affected "~11K sq/miles" or whatever because hundreds of people worked around the clock for months at great personal sacrifice (obtained at the point of a gun) to contain it.

No offense but yea... you're only fooling yourself.

What I was referring to was long term ground effects. Even the 11K sqmiles of ground contamination most of it was minor. I.e. it'll raise your cancer risks but it's not going to kill you right away. All of the western europe/finland/anywhere outside of the direct area are also completely irrelevant because again it'll raise your cancer risk, but in a government failure post apoylptic world none of that matters because the odds of you living long enough to get cancer are low. Illness/animals/environment/other people are all going to kill you MUCH sooner.

The immediate risk for those not in the immediate area of nuke plants is pretty damn low, even those in the area. If they have enough time to shut down the reactors, that will also significantly lower risk. Will it kill people sure? But will it significantly effect the remaining population? Doubtful not before something else more dangerous kills them.

teedubya
05-17-2011, 02:11 AM
Energy Never Dies... so knowing that, i have to say that I think there is too much proof of an afterlife. I'm not sure it's how they Bible sells it or the Catholics, with there Inquisitions, Crusades, Dark Ages and what not... but I'm relatively certain that there is an afterlife, along with the opportunity to live life again as another being, until you figure out all of your lessons... in which you can become reunited with the Source.

If that's not the case, well then fuckitall.

But, yeah, shit is getting crazy. The end of this week is a very interesting date. FEMA ends their New Madrid Earthquake training exercise this week May 16-20th... and many religitards are saying that the "rapture" is May 21st. This weekend is full of potential doom, moreso than any weekend since the SuperMOON of DOOOM back in late March.

jjjayb
05-17-2011, 07:02 AM
Stephen Hawking says there is no heaven and he's like 1,000,000 times smarter than you.

Yeah, but can he rap?

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zn7-fVtT16k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

KILLER_CLOWN
05-17-2011, 08:53 AM
Energy Never Dies... so knowing that, i have to say that I think there is too much proof of an afterlife. I'm not sure it's how they Bible sells it or the Catholics, with there Inquisitions, Crusades, Dark Ages and what not... but I'm relatively certain that there is an afterlife, along with the opportunity to live life again as another being, until you figure out all of your lessons... in which you can become reunited with the Source.

If that's not the case, well then ****itall.

But, yeah, shit is getting crazy. The end of this week is a very interesting date. FEMA ends their New Madrid Earthquake training exercise this week May 16-20th... and many religitards are saying that the "rapture" is May 21st. This weekend is full of potential doom, moreso than any weekend since the SuperMOON of DOOOM back in late March.

The pretrib Rapture Fo Da Loss! This will mark about the thousandth time someone has predicted the rapture and been wrong. They all figure well the tribulation can't start yet because i haven't been raptured, LOLZORZ!

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 09:07 AM
Energy Never Dies... so knowing that, i have to say that I think there is too much proof of an afterlife. I'm not sure it's how they Bible sells it or the Catholics, with there Inquisitions, Crusades, Dark Ages and what not... but I'm relatively certain that there is an afterlife, along with the opportunity to live life again as another being, until you figure out all of your lessons... in which you can become reunited with the Source.

If that's not the case, well then ****itall.

But, yeah, shit is getting crazy. The end of this week is a very interesting date. FEMA ends their New Madrid Earthquake training exercise this week May 16-20th... and many religitards are saying that the "rapture" is May 21st. This weekend is full of potential doom, moreso than any weekend since the SuperMOON of DOOOM back in late March.

I'm supposed to go to an outdoor graduation party Saturday night. What should I wear?

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 10:52 AM
Damn. Science may have answered some more questions. Terrible when that happens.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/quasars-shine-a-light-on-the-earliest-stars/
Quasars shine a light on the earliest stars

...One of the many questions about this time is how our universe evolved from one consisting only of the two simplest elements, hydrogen and helium, into one that boasts the wonderful mix of elements that make up our familiar world, such as carbon, oxygen and iron.

A new understanding of this process has been made possible by the work of Professor Max Pettini and colleagues at Cambridge’s Institute of Astronomy (IoA). To do this, they have turned to the most luminous objects in the universe, quasars, using the light they emit as a tool to pick out the characteristics of what lies between us and the quasar – rather like a torch being shone through the universe...

jiveturkey
05-17-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm supposed to go to an outdoor graduation party Saturday night. What should I wear?
Body armor. And take a big gun just in case.

Hydrae
05-17-2011, 11:57 AM
Body armor. And take a big gun just in case.

Don't ever forget, double-tap!

Bowser
05-17-2011, 12:05 PM
Needs more info. Exactly what kind of civilization busting scenario are we talking here? Is it

-Rapture
-Alien Invasion
-Worldwide cataclysmic event (weather or otherwise)
-Nuclear destruction
-Demon Horde invasion
-Asteroid(s)
-Moloids swallowing entire towns/cities in effort to thin population (nerd rep if you get the reference)
-Zombies (please let it be zombies)
-My mother-in-law becomes ruler of everything, everywhere

Devil's in the details, and I like to be prepared.

jiveturkey
05-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Needs more info. Exactly what kind of civilization busting scenario are we talking here? Is it

-Rapture
-Alien Invasion
-Worldwide cataclysmic event (weather or otherwise)
-Nuclear destruction
-Demon Horde invasion
-Asteroid(s)
-Moloids swallowing entire towns/cities in effort to thin population (nerd rep if you get the reference)
-Zombies (please let it be zombies)
-My mother-in-law becomes ruler of everything, everywhere

Devil's in the details, and I like to be prepared.This is an excellent question and not one that I've considered for this scenario.

Which of the above options would lead to workers fleeing a nuclear plant in a mad rush?

Bowser
05-17-2011, 12:10 PM
This is an excellent question and not one that I've considered for this scenario.

Which of the above options would lead to workers fleeing a nuclear plant in a mad rush?

It was a trick question. If you have met my mother-in-law, you'd be loading your Mossberg as we speak. And looking for zombies.

jiveturkey
05-17-2011, 12:12 PM
It was a trick question. If you have met my mother-in-law, you'd be loading your Mossberg as we speak. And looking for zombies.
I've got the Benelli H20 tactical. It's specifically designed for hunting MIL's in water environments. o:-)

Bowser
05-17-2011, 12:22 PM
I've got the Benelli H20 tactical. It's specifically designed for hunting MIL's in water environments. o:-)

Have I ever told you, that you're my hero?

Okie_Apparition
05-17-2011, 12:32 PM
We are introduced to God at about the same time when we are also being told about Santa, Easter Bunny, Toothfairy & if you sing in bed the monster in the closet will eat your face off. But then again people grow up and believe in trickle down economics and global warming..

Pants
05-17-2011, 12:41 PM
Of course people who have smoked DMT before (the spirit molecule) are certain that there is something after death, a couple of my friends have done it and the stories they tell are pretty amazing.

teedubya
05-17-2011, 01:22 PM
Yeah, DMT trips are amazing. I have no doubt that there is an afterlife.

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 01:30 PM
So wait. You take a hallucinogen and have hallucinations and that's proof of a magical man and place? What if someone saw 30 foot spiders on their trip, does that mean those are real too?

I think it's shocking that a brain all hopped up on hallucinogenic chemicals would imagine fantastic versions of stories it's been fed since childhood. That's so far from expected. Right?

durtyrute
05-17-2011, 01:37 PM
Been there, done that

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 02:07 PM
Damn. Science may have answered some more questions. Terrible when that happens.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/quasars-shine-a-light-on-the-earliest-stars/
Again, doesn't answer my question.

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 02:08 PM
Again, doesn't answer my question.

But somehow "magic man done it" is a complete explanation?

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 02:13 PM
But somehow "magic man done it" is a complete explanation?Where did I say that?

I'm saying neither of us really knows.

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 02:17 PM
Where did I say that?

I'm saying neither of us really knows.

I'm saying you don't have to know for a fact to be able to say which answer is more reasonable.

I have no proof that garden fairies don't exist, but I think we can agree they don't. Same with pink unicorns. Science has plausible theories. Religion has stories told by people.

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm saying you don't have to know for a fact to be able to say which answer is more reasonable.

I have no proof that garden fairies don't exist, but I think we can agree they don't. Same with pink unicorns. Science has plausible theories. Religion has stories told by people.Science has plausible theories as why something exists physically. It doesn't explain what would be left in it's place if that physical entity just disappeared.

I should say I don't think science has explained that....I could be wrong though.

Inspector
05-17-2011, 02:57 PM
So if we have the end of civilization, does that mean I won't get my next Netflix movie?

That's just not fair!

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 03:03 PM
Science has plausible theories as why something exists physically. It doesn't explain what would be left in it's place if that physical entity just disappeared.

I should say I don't think science has explained that....I could be wrong though.

Well, there are all kinds of things that I can only understand on the surface on the edges of quantum physics that explain how we currently believe these things happen. Simple E=mc2 allows for energy to become mass and the reverse.

teedubya
05-17-2011, 03:14 PM
So wait. You take a hallucinogen and have hallucinations and that's proof of a magical man and place? What if someone saw 30 foot spiders on their trip, does that mean those are real too?

I think it's shocking that a brain all hopped up on hallucinogenic chemicals would imagine fantastic versions of stories it's been fed since childhood. That's so far from expected. Right?

DMT is naturally occurring chemical in your brain... you take some every night when you go into deep sleep. Your pineal gland secretes it... fluoride calcifies your pineal gland... which is part of the reason it is in our water.

DMT is a much different thing than LSD. Most people who have tried DMT, have virtually the same experience... see the same evidence.

I have zero doubt there is an afterlife. It's just not the Biblical version.

Energy never dies.

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 03:43 PM
DMT is naturally occurring chemical in your brain... you take some every night when you go into deep sleep. Your pineal gland secretes it... fluoride calcifies your pineal gland... which is part of the reason it is in our water.

There are lots of naturally occurring things in your body that are poisonous too.

DMT is a much different thing than LSD. Most people who have tried DMT, have virtually the same experience... see the same evidence.

Everyone has virtually the same experience when shot too. All that proves is that humans largely react the same way to the same external influence.

I have zero doubt there is an afterlife. It's just not the Biblical version.

Faith can't be defended or argued against because it has no position.

Energy never dies.

In quantum mechanics it sure can. It's never created or destroyed within the tiny window we can imagine and directly observe, but all kinds of things are possible outside of that.

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Well, there are all kinds of things that I can only understand on the surface on the edges of quantum physics that explain how we currently believe these things happen. Simple E=mc2 allows for energy to become mass and the reverse.

I'm not sure you understand my question.

Look out the window. If what you see didn't exist what would be in it's place? In exist I mean if all the physical entities that are required to make up what you can 'see' are removed what takes up that physical space? What is it made of? Mind you your answer can't contain anything that you know exists.

Simplex3
05-17-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm not sure you understand my question.

Look out the window. If what you see didn't exist what would be in it's place? In exist I mean if all the physical entities that are required to make up what you can 'see' are removed what takes up that physical space? What is it made of? Mind you your answer can't contain anything that you know exists.

Nothing that would be visible to a human would exist. But what's visible and observable by humans is an infinitesimally small percentage of what exists.

I've also said earlier in this very thread that there is an origin problem with every theory, but that is at least as true if not more true for the religious explanations.

mlyonsd
05-17-2011, 08:34 PM
Nothing that would be visible to a human would exist. But what's visible and observable by humans is an infinitesimally small percentage of what exists.

I've also said earlier in this very thread that there is an origin problem with every theory, but that is at least as true if not more true for the religious explanations.What isn't visible to humans....how did it start to exist? The only thing I know true is that for every human that can mock religion because facts don't exist to support that hypothesis is a scientist that can somewhat explain how humans came to exist but not how the building blocks that made everything we see came to exist.

And if everything we view as reality didn't exist what would take it's place in physical science?

I'll say it again, I consider people like Stephen Hawking as scientists from 1400 that thought the world was flat.

teedubya
05-18-2011, 01:48 AM
Simplex3 needs to experience DMT, then he will know. lol. Every night, in Heavy REM sleep, our pineal gland secretes the DMT that gives us the dreams. and most of the time, you can't remember those dreams... when you are actively conscious, and you try some DMT, it connects you to the same dream place, while conscious. It's a trip, literally.

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/grcqs9cDuN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 09:56 AM
What isn't visible to humans....how did it start to exist? The only thing I know true is that for every human that can mock religion because facts don't exist to support that hypothesis is a scientist that can somewhat explain how humans came to exist but not how the building blocks that made everything we see came to exist.

And if everything we view as reality didn't exist what would take it's place in physical science?

I'll say it again, I consider people like Stephen Hawking as scientists from 1400 that thought the world was flat.

Science advances knowledge, tests its theories, and admits when its theories don't hold water.

Religion used to change its theories all the time, but it wasn't in light of newly discovered evidence, it was to get some group to assimilate into a government. For some reason in the past 1,600 years religion either doesn't change (Catholics) or it changes its theories based on nothing but changing attitudes in society and finds ways for the exact same book to mean something different.

I've said that science doesn't have a proven answer for the origin problem. However, your assertion that "magic man done it" has an even bigger problem. Where did the magic man who done it come from?

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 09:59 AM
Simplex3 needs to experience DMT, then he will know. lol. Every night, in Heavy REM sleep, our pineal gland secretes the DMT that gives us the dreams. and most of the time, you can't remember those dreams... when you are actively conscious, and you try some DMT, it connects you to the same dream place, while conscious. It's a trip, literally.

He says right up front it's the most potent psychedelic drug know to man. He also admits, right at fucking 0:42, that it's released during REM sleep AND JUST BEFORE YOU DIE. Really weird that you see the same same tripping on that as someone who had a near death experience or who was pulled back from brain death.

mlyonsd
05-18-2011, 10:31 AM
Science advances knowledge, tests its theories, and admits when its theories don't hold water.

Religion used to change its theories all the time, but it wasn't in light of newly discovered evidence, it was to get some group to assimilate into a government. For some reason in the past 1,600 years religion either doesn't change (Catholics) or it changes its theories based on nothing but changing attitudes in society and finds ways for the exact same book to mean something different.

I've said that science doesn't have a proven answer for the origin problem. However, your assertion that "magic man done it" has an even bigger problem. Where did the magic man who done it come from?
I don't disagree with anything of this. Although I would say science not having a proven answer on origin and where did the magic man come both share the same problem.

I highly doubt there is a magic man.....one that we would recognize anyway. My point is modern science is still in it's infancy stage and for a scientist to flatly rule out an after life in some form doesn't impress me as being very scientific or smart.

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 10:47 AM
I don't disagree with anything of this. Although I would say science not having a proven answer on origin and where did the magic man come both share the same problem.

I highly doubt there is a magic man.....one that we would recognize anyway. My point is modern science is still in it's infancy stage and for a scientist to flatly rule out an after life in some form doesn't impress me as being very scientific or smart.

It comes back to the Invisible Pink Unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn) and garden fairies. I can't positively prove their lack of existence either, but they're just as likely as a magical man who knows everything, built everything, and left no evidence.

bowener
05-18-2011, 11:14 AM
Science has plausible theories as why something exists physically. It doesn't explain what would be left in it's place if that physical entity just disappeared.

I should say I don't think science has explained that....I could be wrong though.

Nothing would replace an object that magically disappeared, it would just be gone (I am ignoring the fact that you are basing an argument on something as ridiculous as objects blinking out of existence).

What isn't visible to humans....how did it start to exist? The only thing I know true is that for every human that can mock religion because facts don't exist to support that hypothesis is a scientist that can somewhat explain how humans came to exist but not how the building blocks that made everything we see came to exist.

And if everything we view as reality didn't exist what would take it's place in physical science?

I'll say it again, I consider people like Stephen Hawking as scientists from 1400 that thought the world was flat.

WTF are you talking about? Physicians and Chemists all over the world can tell you what the basic building blocks of matter are, and, for the most part, how they came to exist. Now if you want to break it down to the quantum level, then yes, I suppose at this very moment in a very young science, the complete and absolute truth of how the tiniest bits of matter come together isn't fully known.

If everything we view as reality didn't exist then the "reality" we "see" wouldn't exist. I am really not following your question... are you asking if all the physical laws of the Universe didn't exist, what would exist? Do you not see, as a patron of the Universe, how nonsensical and pointless that question is to ask? How could observers within a Universe know what a Universe unlike the only one they can observe would look like? Just make up random thoughts about alter-Universes? Mine would be total emptiness except for a turd that microbes would argue over if it were a shit taken by God.

If you are bored go find some text books and read what Galileo thinks about the physical universe. Without humans to observe it and place useless meaning upon things, everything is just mathematics. There is no color "green", just a specific wave length of light. There is no "hot or cold" either.

I don't disagree with anything of this. Although I would say science not having a proven answer on origin and where did the magic man come both share the same problem.

I highly doubt there is a magic man.....one that we would recognize anyway. My point is modern science is still in it's infancy stage and for a scientist to flatly rule out an after life in some form doesn't impress me as being very scientific or smart.

I am not picking on you, I promise. The reason scientist flatly rule out an after life is because there isn't one to observe. It is like asking a human what the traits of an super-natural being are. How can somebody observe something that is supposed to be outside of this nature... outside of the observable universe. For something to be studied by science it has to be observed. Once you find a way to observe the supposed afterlife, and test it, then scientists will tell you that there is one... if you think the afterlife is extra-dimensional, then currently that is outside the realm of possibility for science to study, and probably will remain so forever since another dimension may have an entirely different set of physical laws that govern it.

Simply Red
05-18-2011, 11:26 AM
Civilization already ended a while ago. We're livin' in the Dark Ages which are about to get darker.

aside from gas/oil situation - please elaborate

mlyonsd
05-18-2011, 01:30 PM
Nothing would replace an object that magically disappeared, it would just be gone (I am ignoring the fact that you are basing an argument on something as ridiculous as objects blinking out of existence).



WTF are you talking about? Physicians and Chemists all over the world can tell you what the basic building blocks of matter are, and, for the most part, how they came to exist. Now if you want to break it down to the quantum level, then yes, I suppose at this very moment in a very young science, the complete and absolute truth of how the tiniest bits of matter come together isn't fully known.

If everything we view as reality didn't exist then the "reality" we "see" wouldn't exist. I am really not following your question... are you asking if all the physical laws of the Universe didn't exist, what would exist? Do you not see, as a patron of the Universe, how nonsensical and pointless that question is to ask? How could observers within a Universe know what a Universe unlike the only one they can observe would look like? Just make up random thoughts about alter-Universes? Mine would be total emptiness except for a turd that microbes would argue over if it were a shit taken by God.

If you are bored go find some text books and read what Galileo thinks about the physical universe. Without humans to observe it and place useless meaning upon things, everything is just mathematics. There is no color "green", just a specific wave length of light. There is no "hot or cold" either.



I am not picking on you, I promise. The reason scientist flatly rule out an after life is because there isn't one to observe. It is like asking a human what the traits of an super-natural being are. How can somebody observe something that is supposed to be outside of this nature... outside of the observable universe. For something to be studied by science it has to be observed. Once you find a way to observe the supposed afterlife, and test it, then scientists will tell you that there is one... if you think the afterlife is extra-dimensional, then currently that is outside the realm of possibility for science to study, and probably will remain so forever since another dimension may have an entirely different set of physical laws that govern it.

Without arguing the rest of your post I highlighted the part that we can agree on.

MOhillbilly
05-18-2011, 01:32 PM
aside from gas/oil situation - please elaborate

noooooooOOOOOOOOOo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

DMAC
05-18-2011, 01:40 PM
For those who believe there is "nothing", I can't understand that. That means you believe nothing. If you are right, then woopidy doo...you will never know I guess.

If you are wrong, then you might be fucked. Might as well pick SOMETHING to believe in and have a chance at some sort of DMT psychedelic afterlife.

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
For those who believe there is "nothing", I can't understand that. That means you believe nothing. If you are right, then woopidy doo...you will never know I guess.

If you are wrong, then you might be ****ed. Might as well pick SOMETHING to believe in and have a chance at some sort of DMT psychedelic afterlife.

Can't believe it took this long for Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager) to show up.

You have two problems. First, which religion is right? There are so many to choose from, and so many of them claim to be the only true one, and if you don't follow it you're going to hell.

Second, in most religions the god(s) is/are supposedly all knowing. You think an all knowing god won't be able to sniff out that you were playing the just in case game?

It's just as likely and provable that there's an invisible pink unicorn who will make you burn in hell for following any god other than it. Won't you feel stupid if there's an afterlife and you are punished forever because you couldn't fathom that something could be invisible *and* pink.

DMAC
05-18-2011, 01:55 PM
Can't believe it took this long for Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager) to show up.

You have two problems. First, which religion is right? There are so many to choose from, and so many of them claim to be the only true one, and if you don't follow it you're going to hell.

Second, in most religions the god(s) is/are supposedly all knowing. You think an all knowing god won't be able to sniff out that you were playing the just in case game?

It's just as likely and provable that there's an invisible pink unicorn who will make you burn in hell for following any god other than it. Won't you feel stupid if there's an afterlife and you are punished forever because you couldn't fathom that something could be invisible *and* pink.

Who said anything about a just in case game. Research and find something you truly believe in, that makes sense to you.

But to believe in nothing results in nothing.

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 02:09 PM
Who said anything about a just in case game. Research and find something you truly believe in, that makes sense to you.

But to believe in nothing results in nothing.

I choose math. I choose science. They are things that I can prove based on everything that I can observe. I don't have to believe because that one sounds good to me.

I am perfectly ok with life being a happy coincidence. Evolution didn't have an end game; it wasn't trying to make people. Evolution doesn't care where it ends up. The universe in fact does not give a shit about you, this planet, this solar system, this galaxy.

Everything we have and know happened by chance. You won't be here very long to enjoy it. I don't want to spend my limited time believing when I can be experiencing.

Brock
05-18-2011, 02:11 PM
I choose math. I choose science. They are things that I can prove based on everything that I can observe. I don't have to believe because that one sounds good to me.

I am perfectly ok with life being a happy coincidence. Evolution didn't have an end game; it wasn't trying to make people. Evolution doesn't care where it ends up. The universe in fact does not give a shit about you, this planet, this solar system, this galaxy.

Everything we have and know happened by chance. You won't be here very long to enjoy it. I don't want to spend my limited time believing when I can be experiencing.

Enjoy Hell, sinner.

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 02:12 PM
Enjoy Hell, sinner.

Better hope you guessed right and didn't pick the wrong religion just because it happened to be the one your parents practiced.

Ebolapox
05-18-2011, 02:14 PM
I choose math. I choose science. They are things that I can prove based on everything that I can observe. I don't have to believe because that one sounds good to me.

I am perfectly ok with life being a happy coincidence. Evolution didn't have an end game; it wasn't trying to make people. Evolution doesn't care where it ends up. The universe in fact does not give a shit about you, this planet, this solar system, this galaxy.

Everything we have and know happened by chance. You won't be here very long to enjoy it. I don't want to spend my limited time believing when I can be experiencing.

this. I don't need stone age superstitious nonsense to guide my life.

bowener
05-18-2011, 02:18 PM
If somebody is a christian and a great person because they follow their beliefs, do they deserve to get in to heaven?
If somebody is an atheist and an all around great human being, do they deserve to get in to heaven?

The reason I ask is because it seems the first uses people as means to an end. The end being their prize for being Xians... getting into heaven. Whereas the atheist was just a great human being with no future prize in mind.

DMAC
05-18-2011, 02:20 PM
I choose math. I choose science. They are things that I can prove based on everything that I can observe. I don't have to believe because that one sounds good to me.

I am perfectly ok with life being a happy coincidence. Evolution didn't have an end game; it wasn't trying to make people. Evolution doesn't care where it ends up. The universe in fact does not give a shit about you, this planet, this solar system, this galaxy.

Everything we have and know happened by chance. You won't be here very long to enjoy it. I don't want to spend my limited time believing when I can be experiencing.

Shucks, I wish I didnt believe anything so I could experience stuff. Dang beliefs.

Simplex3
05-18-2011, 02:40 PM
Baptism: How many babies do we have to waterboard before we learn the location of Jesus's hidden compound?


(and yes, that was a joke)

mlyonsd
05-18-2011, 02:46 PM
Baptism: How many babies do we have to waterboard before we learn the location of Jesus's hidden compound?


(and yes, that was a joke):LOL:

mlyonsd
05-18-2011, 02:56 PM
If somebody is a christian and a great person because they follow their beliefs, do they deserve to get in to heaven?
If somebody is an atheist and an all around great human being, do they deserve to get in to heaven?

The reason I ask is because it seems the first uses people as means to an end. The end being their prize for being Xians... getting into heaven. Whereas the atheist was just a great human being with no future prize in mind.

One can believe in a soul, or spirit that carries on in another dimension after the body dies without believing in organized religion and its teachings.

BucEyedPea
05-18-2011, 02:58 PM
America, as we knew it, is DEAD!

boogblaster
05-18-2011, 03:01 PM
already had me radiation and zombie shots ....

DMAC
05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
One can believe in a soul, or spirit that carries on in another dimension after the body dies without believing in organized religion and its teachings.

Exactly.