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The Mad Crapper
05-19-2011, 11:46 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/bu...gewanted=print

Many With New College Degree Find the Job Market Humbling

By CATHERINE RAMPELL

The individual stories are familiar. The chemistry major tending bar. The classics major answering phones. The Italian studies major sweeping aisles at Wal-Mart.

Now evidence is emerging that the damage wrought by the sour economy is more widespread than just a few careers led astray or postponed. Even for college graduates — the people who were most protected from the slings and arrows of recession — the outlook is rather bleak.

Employment rates for new college graduates have fallen sharply in the last two years, as have starting salaries for those who can find work. What’s more, only half of the jobs landed by these new graduates even require a college degree, reviving debates about whether higher education is “worth it” after all.

“I have friends with the same degree as me, from a worse school, but because of who they knew or when they happened to graduate, they’re in much better jobs,” said Kyle Bishop, 23, a 2009 graduate of the University of Pittsburgh who has spent the last two years waiting tables, delivering beer, working at a bookstore and entering data. “It’s more about luck than anything else.”

The median starting salary for students graduating from four-year colleges in 2009 and 2010 was $27,000, down from $30,000 for those who entered the work force in 2006 to 2008, according to a study released on Wednesday by the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University. That is a decline of 10 percent, even before taking inflation into account.

Of course, these are the lucky ones — the graduates who found a job. Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007. (Some have gone for further education or opted out of the labor force, while many are still pounding the pavement.)

Even these figures understate the damage done to these workers’ careers. Many have taken jobs that do not make use of their skills; about only half of recent college graduates said that their first job required a college degree.

The choice of major is quite important. Certain majors had better luck finding a job that required a college degree, according to an analysis by Andrew M. Sum, an economist at Northeastern University, of 2009 Labor Department data for college graduates under 25.

Young graduates who majored in education and teaching or engineering were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and humanities majors were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.

An analysis by The New York Times of Labor Department data about college graduates aged 25 to 34 found that the number of these workers employed in food service, restaurants and bars had risen 17 percent in 2009 from 2008, though the sample size was small. There were similar or bigger employment increases at gas stations and fuel dealers, food and alcohol stores, and taxi and limousine services.

This may be a waste of a college degree, but it also displaces the less-educated workers who would normally take these jobs.

“The less schooling you had, the more likely you were to get thrown out of the labor market altogether,” said Mr. Sum, noting that unemployment rates for high school graduates and dropouts are always much higher than those for college graduates. “There is complete displacement all the way down.”

Meanwhile, college graduates are having trouble paying off student loan debt, which is at a median of $20,000 for graduates of classes 2006 to 2010.

Mr. Bishop, the Pittsburgh graduate, said he is “terrified” of the effects his starter jobs might have on his ultimate career, which he hopes to be in publishing or writing. “It looks bad to have all these short-term jobs on your résumé, but you do have to pay the bills,” he said, adding that right now his student loan debt was over $70,000.

Many graduates will probably take on more student debt. More than 60 percent of those who graduated in the last five years say they will need more formal education to be successful.

“I knew there weren’t going to be many job prospects for me until I got my Ph.D.,” said Travis Patterson, 23, a 2010 graduate of California State University, Fullerton. He is working as an administrative assistant for a property management company and studying psychology in graduate school. While it may not have anything to do with his degree, “it helps pay my rent and tuition, and that’s what matters.”

Going back to school does offer the possibility of joining the labor force when the economy is better. Unemployment rates are also generally lower for people with advanced schooling.

Those who do not go back to school may be on a lower-paying trajectory for years. They start at a lower salary, and they may begin their careers with employers that pay less on average or have less room for growth.

“Their salary history follows them wherever they go,” said Carl Van Horn, a labor economist at Rutgers. “It’s like a parrot on your shoulder, traveling with you everywhere, constantly telling you ‘No, you can’t make that much money.’ ”

And while young people who have weathered a tough job market may shy from risks during their careers, the best way to nullify an unlucky graduation date is to change jobs when you can, says Till von Wachter, an economist at Columbia.

“If you don’t move within five years of graduating, for some reason you get stuck where you are. That’s just an empirical finding,” Mr. von Wachter said. “By your late 20s, you’re often married, and have a family and have a house. You stop the active pattern of moving jobs.”


Price of Obamunism So Far: $3,000,000,000,000
October 20, 2010

Let's hope liberals enjoyed the warm glow of self-righteousness they got from voting for the unqualified left-wing black guy with the name like a terrorist, because the price tag is astronomical and still rising:

New numbers posted [Monday] on the Treasury Department website show the National Debt has increased by more than $3 trillion since President Obama took office. …

The Administration has projected the National Debt will soar in Mr. Obama's fourth year in office to nearly $16.5-trillion in 2012. That's more than 100 percent of the value of the nation's economy and $5.9-trillion above what it was his first day on the job.

Not even a Harvard grad could be enough of a fool to think this can be sustained. By the time this nightmare is over, the names of Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven — progressives credited with inventing the strategy of imposing communism by collapsing the economy with excessive government spending — will be household names.

Meanwhile, the Marxist saboteur in the White House blames his predecessor for the debt, and uses it to justify further crippling the economy by letting taxes shoot into the stratosphere on January 1.


Barack Hussein Obama!

Mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Coin_ExactChange_160.gif

Hopey Change™

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 12:18 PM
Students...if you are not looking at the ROI of your degree then you shouldn't be going to college in the first place. If you say being a hournalist is your dream...then don't bitch about the cost or the debt.

SuperChief
05-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Hooray! My college degree won't be worth the paper it's printed on when I get done with school. Three cheers for my "investment."

Ebolapox
05-19-2011, 12:24 PM
I just graduated with a BS in microbiology/biotechnology. I can fairly easily get a job in a lab from 30-40k a year (not great, but not horrible in this economy), but my goal has long been to get my Ph.D and do infectious disease research. going into grad school this fall, veterinary pathobiology. long story short, you have to know what you want and how to get there. if you get a degree in a field that isn't growing and in demand, you have to expect to be hurting a bit. know your limitations, and do your research. many out there aren't, and will suffer as a result.

cdcox
05-19-2011, 12:53 PM
I had a very similar experience in 1983. I had a degree in chemical engineering and zero job prospects despite dozens of on campus interviews. Most of my classmates were also jobless. Just four years earlier (1979) when I started school chemE grads were getting 7-10 job offers each. Guess who the presidents were in 1979 and 1983?

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:09 PM
Hooray! My college degree won't be worth the paper it's printed on when I get done with school. Three cheers for my "investment."

Many are VERY in debt and living in their parents basement due to lack of jobs. Students can't even file for bankruptcy on student loans. Talk about involuntary servitude courtesy of the US govt.

"Hi! I'm from the government and I am here to help you."

Not to mention the scam on college books where the publishers put out new ones each year in cahoots with college bookstores which shows the colleges are more out for the buck than to help you get an education. Apply for scholarships, as many as 30 a year if you must have that college degree. I did this all year. It takes applying to many just to get one. I just nailed a housing scholarship for my kid and she has a smaller one toward tuition. I am waiting to hear on two more. * fingers crossed* Then I am taking in a roomate here to pay the balance. Plus I had her enter writing and art contests for big awards. Waiting to hear on those by July. I am determined to get her through with either no debt or very little debt. I may even go to grammy for a few grand but only as a last resort.

I say, use CLEP, dual enrollment, and as many AP classes as you can to knock off time and money while in HS. I got my kid through a college semester in her senior year. Or become an entrepreneur and skip it. Colleges mainly teach you to be an employee and not someone who is independent and who can create a new service, product or market.

Check out RateMyProfessor site and others like Myedu to see what professors are absolutely fricking lousy in gigantic auditoriums for classrooms. The investment isn't all what it's cracked up to be. Over time, the net will replace these mortar and brick institutions and go the way of the "horse n' buggy" because they are just not affordable; nor the investment they are claimed. ( except for a certain few professions) Before massive govt financial aid students were able to work their way through college without such massive debt. This is another thing that govt intervention in making things "affordable" made them more "expensive." It's a scam in many ways.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:10 PM
I just graduated with a BS in microbiology/biotechnology. I can fairly easily get a job in a lab from 30-40k a year (not great, but not horrible in this economy), but my goal has long been to get my Ph.D and do infectious disease research. going into grad school this fall, veterinary pathobiology. long story short, you have to know what you want and how to get there. if you get a degree in a field that isn't growing and in demand, you have to expect to be hurting a bit. know your limitations, and do your research. many out there aren't, and will suffer as a result.

And PhD's are in less demand which will continue. Not to mention how overrated they are in the market.

Bump
05-19-2011, 01:13 PM
I honestly think it's better to learn a trade and go through some apprenticeship than getting a random college degree. But I'm in college, but I'm more than halfway done so I may as well finish it, but it probably won't get me any great job.

Ebolapox
05-19-2011, 01:15 PM
And PhD's are in less demand which will continue. Not to mention how overrated they are in the market.

eh, I'm not too worried. they're absolutely in demand in the research field; not many people going into research for BSL III and IV pathogens. it's a specialized field, fwiw.

SuperChief
05-19-2011, 01:16 PM
Many are indebt and living in their parents basement due to lack of jobs. Students can't even file for bankruptcy on student loans. Talk about involuntary servitude courtesy of the US govt.

"Hi! I'm from the government and I am here to help you."

Not to mention the scam on college books where the publishers put out new ones each year in cahoots with college bookstores which shows the colleges are more out for the buck than to help you get an education. Apply for scholarships, as many as 30 a year if you must have that college degree. I did this all year. It takes applying to many just to get one. I just nailed a housing scholarship for my kid. I am waiting to hear on two more. Then I am taking in a roomate. Plus I had her enter writing and art contests for big awards.

I say, use CLEP, dual enrollment, and as many AP classes as you can to knock off time and money. Or become an entrepreneur and skip it. Colleges mainly teach you to be an employee and not someone who is independent and who can create a new service, product or market.

Basically, I'm only here to get the piece of paper that can get my foot in the door. Funny enough, I'm an Economics major that's going into either Marketing, Advertising, or Public Relations post graduation. I like the Econ curriculum because it really challenges my analytical and critical thinking skills, which I assume is an invaluable asset to employers these days.

Radar Chief
05-19-2011, 01:19 PM
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jFMgmETBwZ8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:24 PM
Basically, I'm only here to get the piece of paper that can get my foot in the door. Funny enough, I'm an Economics major that's going into either Marketing, Advertising, or Public Relations post graduation. I like the Econ curriculum because it really challenges my analytical and critical thinking skills, which I assume is an invaluable asset to employers these days.

It's unfortunate, that employers think like this today. But some are changing their tune. The other unfortunate thing is that they teach a bit of misinformation and disinformation on economics in our universities unless your lucky enough to go to one where there are some courses in the Austrian school of economics. The marketing, advertising and public relations are useful though. However, I do think those can be learned on the job much faster if only we had an apprenticehip system where people could earn their way, while paying their dues. I know many who majored in something different and then went into these fields.

BTW I am in the advertising, marketing and PR industry but as a creative on the visual side. Heh! My degree was a BFA Illustration and I learned most of my GD on the job. Thank gawd, they go by the portfolio more than a degree.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:27 PM
I honestly think it's better to learn a trade and go through some apprenticeship than getting a random college degree. But I'm in college, but I'm more than halfway done so I may as well finish it, but it probably won't get me any great job.

I went through this after graduation. Thank gawd, I had one professor who was very entrepreneurial and told us if we couldn't get a job to create one. That's what I ended up doing and it worked out eventually.


Whatever, you do don't let the military persuade you or you might end up dead fighting for a New World Order instead.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:28 PM
eh, I'm not too worried. they're absolutely in demand in the research field; not many people going into research for BSL III and IV pathogens. it's a specialized field, fwiw.

I have a cousin graduating with a PhD in forensic anthropology with over $75k in debt and she doesn't know what she's going to do. You're lucky.

Maybe she could be a consultant for the TV show "Bones"! Or write a novel with a murder mystery involving a skeleton?

Donger
05-19-2011, 01:31 PM
I've got two nephews nearing graduation and they both have standing offers of $65K right out of school. And, they've both been funded through their future employers via internships. I'm really proud of them. They've worked their butts off and are going to be rewarded.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:35 PM
I've got two nephews nearing graduation and they both have standing offers of $65K right out of school. And, they've both been funded through their future employers via internships. I'm really proud of them. They've worked their butts off and are going to be rewarded.

Good for them. That's more the exception than the norm. I never heard of any internships that are funded by employers. I know of corps where you can work and go to school at night and get it paid for that way. That's what my ex did.

I can completely train my daughter in concept art for a portfolio to get into the Game or Film industry if she needs an entry job. That's on the back burner for now because she needs those screenwriting and creative writing courses which I can't give her.

SuperChief
05-19-2011, 01:38 PM
It's unfortunate, that employers think like this today. But some are changing their tune. The other unfortunate thing is that they teach a bit of misinformation and disinformation on economics in our universities unless your lucky enough to go to one where there are some courses in the Austrian school of economics. The marketing, advertising and public relations are useful though. However, I do think those can be learned on the job much faster if only we had an apprenticehip system where people could earn their way, while paying their dues. I know many who majored in something different and then went into these fields.

BTW I am in the advertising, marketing and PR industry but as a creative on the visual side. Heh! My degree was a BFA Illustration and I learned most of my GD on the job. Thank gawd, they go by the portfolio more than a degree.

Luckily my advisor (and my main economics professor) has taken notice of my creative talents and basically tailors his meetings to my strengths when we discuss post graduation careers/plans, etc. I figure with my creative, analytical, critical, and problem solving abilities, I might land a job that I enjoy in the near future.

I'm really gunning for a job on either the east or west coast - ideally in either NYC, San Fran, or LA. I've also looked into opportunites overseas in the UK (which would be absolutely amazing). Any advice you could send my way, as you're currently in the industry?

Ebolapox
05-19-2011, 01:43 PM
I have a cousin graduating with a PhD in forensic anthropology with over $75k in debt and she doesn't know what she's going to do. Your lucky.


Maybe she could be a consultant for the TV show "Bones"! Or write a novel with a murder mystery involving a skeleton?

that's just it, you have to do your research and know what you're getting yourself into. I'm lucky in that the field I'm going into (and been locked into for the last 12-13 years) is one that requires a lot of specialization, and can be dangerous (many people aren't willing to put the time into learning the specialized knowledge and/or risk being exposed to the pathogens). otherwise, I'd be right there along with her.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 01:43 PM
Luckily my advisor (and my main economics professor) has taken notice of my creative talents and basically tailors his meetings to my strengths when we discuss post graduation careers/plans, etc. I figure with my creative, analytical, critical, and problem solving abilities, I might land a job that I enjoy in the near future.

I'm really gunning for a job on either the east or west coast - ideally in either NYC, San Fran, or LA. I've also looked into opportunites overseas in the UK (which would be absolutely amazing). Any advice you could send my way, as you're currently in the industry?

Yeah, but I am not working at all right now. I will be again though but I have been out of the loop the past two years. I have taught advertising at the college level as an adjunct at various colleges though. I've worked for many Fortune 1000 companies.

If you are creative and can combine that analytically into sales it can be very rewarding because business place high value on sales. Knowing how to sell is a plus btw. Check David Ogilvy's books and background even if older....they are still very valid. I would try selling something to get that viewpoint. Anyhow, it's also a hot-seat profession with high turnaround and burn-out. That plus companies know it isn't creative if it doesn't sell which is why it is common for advertising award winners lose the account the next year. Yup, it's true and Ogilvy mentions that.

SuperChief
05-19-2011, 02:01 PM
Yeah, but I am not working at all right now. I will be again though but I have been out of the loop the past two years. I have taught advertising at the college level as an adjunct at various colleges though. I've worked for many Fortune 1000 companies.

If you are creative and can combine that analytically into sales it can be very rewarding because business place high value on sales. Knowing how to sell is a plus btw. Check David Ogilvy's books and background even if older....they are still very valid. I would try selling something to get that viewpoint. Anyhow, it's also a hot-seat profession with high turnaround and burn-out. That plus companies know it isn't creative if it doesn't sell which is why it is common for advertising award winners lose the account the next year. Yup, it's true and Ogilvy mentions that.

Good points here. I've been working as a Marketing Coordinator for a State Farm agent in the town where I'm going to school now - this is providing me with some marketing experience along with an excellent opportunity to sell, as I'm licensed in P&C by the State. I've also done some promotions work for a television show in Hollyweird. Hopefully these experiences, along with the several groups that I'm apart of/have founded at my college give me an edge.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Good points here. I've been working as a Marketing Coordinator for a State Farm agent in the town where I'm going to school now - this is providing me with some marketing experience along with an excellent opportunity to sell, as I'm licensed in P&C by the State. I've also done some promotions work for a television show in Hollyweird. Hopefully these experiences, along with the several groups that I'm apart of/have founded at my college give me an edge.

That's all good. I didn't do any of that. Heh! I struggled my first year out but wound up making more than my peers later and then was able to go part-time when I had a kid and take in what I wanted still doing work for places like Disney, Reebok and even Olympics.

SuperChief
05-19-2011, 02:15 PM
That's all good. I didn't do any of that. Heh! I struggled my first year out but wound up making more than my peers later and then was able to go part-time when I had a kid and take in what I wanted still doing work for places like Disney, Reebok and even Olympics.

That's incredible. All in all, it probably is mostly about who you know. While I don't have too many connections as of yet, I feel that my resume, along with multiple interviews, will speak for itself. Hey, being friends with Ed Asner can't hurt, either ;)

The whole college deal is rough. Four years spending on money that could have been utilized elsewhere in ventures more worthwhile, IMO. I find it silly that a piece of paper separates me from potential careers, regardless of the merit of my college learning experience. In most cases, I haven't learned a damn thing here - I assume most job training that will be essential will come from the employer.

Oh well. I'm playing the game, which is half the battle. Any connections you would send my way would be greatly appreciated ;) Not trying to abuse my CP privs, but you've got to get help from wherever/whomever you can, right?

Discuss Thrower
05-19-2011, 02:21 PM
My original plan when I entered college 4 years ago was to go to law school... Only to realize that that isn't a good idea because I won't be able to get into a top-25 law school and that I'm better suited elsewhere. Problem is I feel I'm better suited teaching college English only to have the majority of my professors say "Don't bother; you're not going to be hired anywhere."

I'll be lucky to find a job (not working for my family; that's a huge cop-out and a waste of 5 years of college IMHO) that pays above 15k in Springfield once I graduate.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 02:37 PM
It is not about who-you know. It can be, but if you have good interpersonal skills you can go anywhere. Above all you must be able to sell yourself and your ideas no matter what you do. Those that can succeed; those that can't don't or take the long journey toward the middle.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 02:51 PM
My original plan when I entered college 4 years ago was to go to law school... Only to realize that that isn't a good idea because I won't be able to get into a top-25 law school and that I'm better suited elsewhere. Problem is I feel I'm better suited teaching college English only to have the majority of my professors say "Don't bother; you're not going to be hired anywhere."

I'll be lucky to find a job (not working for my family; that's a huge cop-out and a waste of 5 years of college IMHO) that pays above 15k in Springfield once I graduate.

Interesting. My daughter is going to be an English major with an emphasis in Creative Writing with a minor in either Film or Art. The thing is, if you can write, there are many more jobs out there for an English degree from what I researched. In fact there was a whole book on careers, which covered those with English degrees and/or writers. It said they went further career wise than other professions. It listed salaries of all professions too. Businesses always need writers for press releases or to write manuals.

Here's another profession where an English degree applies—Game Designer.

Who woulda' thought 'huh?

That's what my daughter wants to be. You would think it would mean one of the visual artists doing the concept art/storyboards or the computer art creation but there's two kinds of designers. There are the artists and then there's the person over the artists and programmers who is also called a designer too.

The core skill is writing, both fiction and non. Having some screenwriting background and lots of novels behind you is good too. Then they like a good overall general education because you can't write about anything if you don't know anything. It's a plus to have some art so you can render a scene or do a storyboard but it is not vital. Someone with an English degrees fits the bill here.

I did a lot of research on this because it was hard to figure out the curriculum needed. I even called one of the designers are Blizzard Entertainment and the author of a book on the Game Industry. They actually got back to us, one by phone even. One can still get to this position via other avenues like programming and visual game design or even as a tester. The core skill is still writing though....being able to write clearly regarding the game mechanics. So English literacy is desirable for the position. The Blizzard Entertainment guy had a Creative Writing master degree from NYU. They had even just hired a Law School grad for a design position. If you have a passion for games and a knack for it you can still get the job. Only he disagreed with the game book author saying programmers and visual artists being pulled into the other game designer position is a waste of their skills. I think that's because he worked for a larger company. They tend to pigeon-hole you more than smaller outfits.

It's growing industry too. Anyhow, places had designers with English degrees. It's related to film and of course, they need good writers there too. There was a dearth of good story tellers for films a short while back which is one reason Hollywood started producing more films from books.

Seems to me that English degree might apply to more professions than you think. Just a thought.

Chocolate Hog
05-19-2011, 03:15 PM
More reason to eliminate student loans.

alnorth
05-19-2011, 03:42 PM
I honestly think it's better to learn a trade and go through some apprenticeship than getting a random college degree.

Yep. If you want to go to college, you better be aiming for a career where the industry's future is bright and a particular specialized college degree is mandatory. That, or you better go all the way through because you have a passion to teach and/or do research at the university level.

The skilled trades are beginning to pay pretty well because they have been denigrated for so long, and the master craftsmen of today have a pretty high average age. Someday in our lifetime we'll look up and see electricians and experienced welders and master carpenters and the like demanding and receiving $40-50/hour and up because there are so few of them, and so many people with useless 4-year humanity degrees.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 03:51 PM
More reason to eliminate student loans.

The money must be paid back even if a borrower declares bankruptcy. Its a good investment for our country. Traditionally students did not consider ROI in a school and degree choice. Its starting to happen more and more.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 03:59 PM
The money must be paid back even if a borrower declares bankruptcy. Its a good investment for our country.

Are you referring to student loans as a good investment? Not if the market doesn't provide jobs in those areas in relation to the amount of debt being taken. It has driven up the cost of tuition as colleges love the gravy train it provides. When these loans were not common students could work their way through because tuition, although not necessarily dirt cheap, were not rising in tandem to the level of aid.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 04:00 PM
Yep. If you want to go to college, you better be aiming for a career where the industry's future is bright and a particular specialized college degree is mandatory. That, or you better go all the way through because you have a passion to teach and/or do research at the university level.

The skilled trades are beginning to pay pretty well because they have been denigrated for so long, and the master craftsmen of today have a pretty high average age. Someday in our lifetime we'll look up and see electricians and experienced welders and master carpenters and the like demanding and receiving $40-50/hour and up because there are so few of them, and so many people with useless 4-year humanity degrees.

I actually agree, plus many of these trades have to still be done here.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 04:02 PM
That's incredible. All in all, it probably is mostly about who you know. While I don't have too many connections as of yet, I feel that my resume, along with multiple interviews, will speak for itself. Hey, being friends with Ed Asner can't hurt, either ;)

The whole college deal is rough. Four years spending on money that could have been utilized elsewhere in ventures more worthwhile, IMO. I find it silly that a piece of paper separates me from potential careers, regardless of the merit of my college learning experience. In most cases, I haven't learned a damn thing here - I assume most job training that will be essential will come from the employer.

Oh well. I'm playing the game, which is half the battle. Any connections you would send my way would be greatly appreciated ;) Not trying to abuse my CP privs, but you've got to get help from wherever/whomever you can, right?

Yeah, a graphic designer or artist is a good job for a women because you can freelance from home. Same for a writer.

Again, though, get to know who you need to know. Join professional organizations and network. It's no different than marketing a product or service.

Chocolate Hog
05-19-2011, 06:52 PM
The money must be paid back even if a borrower declares bankruptcy. Its a good investment for our country. Traditionally students did not consider ROI in a school and degree choice. Its starting to happen more and more.

My argument is this: The more and more people go to school the less the degree actually becomes while it drives up the price of education. Keep in mind i'm a college student whos paid the last 3 years by myself working a shitload of hours during the summertime. It can be done.

CrazyPhuD
05-19-2011, 07:27 PM
Are you referring to student loans as a good investment? Not if the market doesn't provide jobs in those areas in relation to the amount of debt being taken. It has driven up the cost of tuition as colleges love the gravy train it provides. When these loans were not common students could work their way through because tuition, although not necessarily dirt cheap, were not rising in tandem to the level of aid.

So here's the one real kicker about a lack of student loans. While yes they provide more money to the education system in general(and WAY too much goes to for profit colleges which should get zero dollars), if you remove them you will likely significantly reduce access to elite universities from those of middle class income and below. While the advantage of college in general may be debatable, going to a truly elite university is a significant leg up earning potential.

Just look at MBA statistics, if you don't go to a top 20 school you're not likely to ever make your money back. I also know this from personal experience, when I interview, unless I know you personally or unless someone I know recommends you, I am unlikely to interview anyone from a less than super star school. Why? I have a finite number of interview slots and a finite amount of time, the simple reality is the percentage of finding that really smart person goes way up when they come from an elite school. It's not always the case but it's a fairly reasonable filter.

By removing loans you will make many of those schools unaffordable to student who would be able to go on a combination of scholarships and loans. The loan system needs serious reform, one of which is simply banning for profit universities from access, but you'll need it in some form. Otherwise you are likely to increase the wealth gap at an even faster rate than currently.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 09:35 PM
My argument is this: The more and more people go to school the less the degree actually becomes while it drives up the price of education. Keep in mind i'm a college student whos paid the last 3 years by myself working a shitload of hours during the summertime. It can be done.

As it stands, I am in the business. Hence my objection. What we're seeing is what I mentioned above and more and more smaller schools poping up and diluting the other side of the market. It'll even out and it creates jobs allmover the place.

Chocolate Hog
05-19-2011, 09:36 PM
As it stands, I am in the business. Hence my objection. What we're seeing is what I mentioned above and more and more smaller schools poping up and diluting the other side of the market. It'll even out and it creates jobs allmover the place.

Forgive me but whats ROI stand for? Also what field are you in if you don't mind me asking.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 09:40 PM
Forgive me but whats a ROI? Also what field are you in if you don't mind me asking.

Return on Investment.

I am in the technology infrastructure field. I design and implement enterprise networks for small to medium publically traded corporations.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 09:47 PM
Are you referring to student loans as a good investment? Not if the market doesn't provide jobs in those areas in relation to the amount of debt being taken. It has driven up the cost of tuition as colleges love the gravy train it provides. When these loans were not common students could work their way through because tuition, although not necessarily dirt cheap, were not rising in tandem to the level of aid.

Job availbilty goes up and down like any system. Its a wave. It has a high point and a low point. So no, the downturn is not desirable. However, a better educated population is desirable regardless. One is not a function of the other. They certainly aren't mutually inclusive.

chiefzilla1501
05-19-2011, 10:00 PM
I don't think an article does the education system justice. The economy sucks right now. Boomers are working past retirement. Illegals are taking a bunch of jobs. So yeah, with all that in mind, not a lot out there for entry-level employees.

Not to mention that there's been a generational shift. I think college grads come out less prepared for the real world not because of lack of education, but lack of common sense. Every day, I see college grads interview for jobs with seedy facebook pages. I did the same when I graduated. Took me 4-5 years to grow up. Not to mention significantly increased indecision over what they want to do in life. That doesn't mean that they won't eventually find a job that they love or eventually mature.

Jenson71
05-19-2011, 10:04 PM
I don't think an article does the education system justice. The economy sucks right now. Boomers are working past retirement. Illegals are taking a bunch of jobs. So yeah, with all that in mind, not a lot out there for entry-level employees.

Not to mention that there's been a generational shift. I think college grads come out less prepared for the real world not because of lack of education, but lack of common sense. Every day, I see college grads interview for jobs with seedy facebook pages. I did the same when I graduated. Took me 4-5 years to grow up. Not to mention significantly increased indecision over what they want to do in life. That doesn't mean that they won't eventually find a job that they love or eventually mature.

I don't think we have less common sense. We just have more opportunities to publicly shoot ourselves in the foot than our parents did.

chiefzilla1501
05-19-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't think we have less common sense. We just have more opportunities to publicly shoot ourselves in the foot than our parents did.

When I think back to the stupid things I said and did on the job when I was 23, I cringe. Some of it is because there's more opportunity to screw up, but a lot of it also just less common sense. We don't balance checkbooks. We live on credit. More and more of us are mooching off our parents. And how long before people get emotionally disconnected from each other? I had to call people to talk or hang out. Now people text or use some kind of IM. We're also not going to blend in to a work culture that keeps rigid hours and doesn't let you work remotely with a laptop.

I think just in general, career maturity is coming at a later age. Coming from someone who took a very long time to get there.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 10:37 PM
When I think back to the stupid things I said and did on the job when I was 23, I cringe. Some of it is because there's more opportunity to screw up, but a lot of it also just less common sense. We don't balance checkbooks. We live on credit. More and more of us are mooching off our parents. And how long before people get emotionally disconnected from each other? I had to call people to talk or hang out. Now people text or use some kind of IM. We're also not going to blend in to a work culture that keeps rigid hours and doesn't let you work remotely with a laptop.

I think just in general, career maturity is coming at a later age. Coming from someone who took a very long time to get there.

All that stuff you pointed out is just the generation gap. Mediums for communication are always evolving and changing. Turning and twisting, breaking and burning.

notorious
05-19-2011, 11:11 PM
. Someday in our lifetime we'll look up and see electricians and experienced welders and master carpenters and the like demanding and receiving $40-50/hour and up .

That day is already here. I know a few that easily make double that.

notorious
05-19-2011, 11:20 PM
When I graduated from flight school 10 years ago I would have been lucky to get a 23K a year job. Worked my ass off instructing for around 15K a year (with a side bartending job of 12K/year for only 2 nights a week). All of this and 40K in debt.


When I started my own business 6 years ago times were tough, but I have managed to make a LOT more money then I did as a pilot. I could have went through the motions and eventually earned a 6 figure airline job someday, but why wait?


Higher education is overated.

alnorth
05-19-2011, 11:22 PM
That day is already here. I know a few that easily make double that.

I'm not surprised. I dont think thats widespread yet, but it soon will be.

I got lucky, I wised up in my Junior year in college, realized I hated my major, and scrambled to land into a recession-proof decent-paying white-collar job. If I had failed to do that, I might have wound up with a useless degree, and cursed our stupid education system for elevating college, not on its own merits, but to the expense of all the skilled trades as "useless dumb grunt work".

The skilled trades are not dumb manual labor, our country has a big shortage of electricians, plumbers, pipe fitters, welders, carpenters, masons, etc and the few who are ignoring all the dumb advice of "oh, you dont want to do that, go to college" are going to make serious money.

If you have a kid or young relative who is interested in the skilled trades and not really wanting to go to college, there's nothing wrong with that in this economy.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 11:25 PM
When I graduated from flight school 10 years ago I would have been lucky to get a 23K a year job. Worked my ass off instructing for around 15K a year (with a side bartending job of 12K/year for only 2 nights a week). All of this and 40K in debt.


When I started my own business 6 years ago times were tough, but I have managed to make a LOT more money then I did as a pilot. I could have went through the motions and eventually earned a 6 figure airline job someday, but why wait?


Higher education is overated.

It can be. Would you say that it was really about the choices you made? Higher education supplements the individual. Higher education is just information that means little without the human traits of drive and ambition.

notorious
05-19-2011, 11:27 PM
I'm not surprised. I dont think thats widespread yet, but it soon will be.

I got lucky, I wised up in my Junior year in college, realized I hated my major, and scrambled to land into a recession-proof high-paying white-collar job. If I had failed to do that, I might have wound up with a useless degree, and cursed our stupid education system for elevating college, not on its own merits, but to the expense of all the skilled trades as "useless dumb grunt work".

The skilled trades are not dumb manual labor, our country has a big shortage of electricians, plumbers, pipe fitters, welders, carpenters, masons, etc and the few who are ignoring all the dumb advice of "oh, you dont want to do that, go to college" are going to make serious money.

If you have a kid or young relative who is interested in the skilled trades and not really wanting to go to college, there's nothing wrong with that in this economy.


People look at me strange when I tell them I have more flight time then a lot of airline pilots. They ask me why I am in the floor business and I tell them,"I get to run my own show, I enjoy working with wood, I am home almost every night, and I make a HELL of a lot more then most pilots."

notorious
05-19-2011, 11:28 PM
It can be.

You are right, some Higher Education still pays off, but the fields in which they do are becoming slimmer and slimmer.

BIG_DADDY
05-19-2011, 11:30 PM
THat's why I am hiring a bunch of college grads in June on a commision only basis. Yea baby. Show me you got balls and I will show you how to set yourself up with a good residual income. Oh you want a salary? Sorry bud, gravy train already pulled out awhile ago.

Garcia Bronco
05-19-2011, 11:34 PM
Case

It can be. Would you say that it was really about the choices you made? Higher education supplements the individual. Higher education is just information that means little without the human traits of drive and ambition.

Point


THat's why I am hiring a bunch of college grads in June on a commision only basis. Yea baby. Show me you got ballsand I will show you how to set yourself up with a good residual income. Oh you want a salary? Sorry bud, gravy train already pulled out awhile ago.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 11:51 PM
Job availbilty goes up and down like any system. Its a wave. It has a high point and a low point. So no, the downturn is not desirable. However, a better educated population is desirable regardless. One is not a function of the other. They certainly aren't mutually inclusive.

That should be what the job of K-12. They're not into educating though but socializing.
There's many other ways to have a better educated population but it is not the proper role of the Federal govt.

BIG_DADDY
05-19-2011, 11:51 PM
Case



Point

We live in an age of entitlement.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 11:53 PM
THat's why I am hiring a bunch of college grads in June on a commision only basis. Yea baby. Show me you got balls and I will show you how to set yourself up with a good residual income. Oh you want a salary? Sorry bud, gravy train already pulled out awhile ago.

That's what another cousin of mine did. He had a degree in marketing and couldn't find a job and that was in the early 1990's. He went on straight commission job mainly annuities and other financial instruments and his first year made $50k. By age 28 he was making $350k per year. He did awesome.

BucEyedPea
05-19-2011, 11:55 PM
When I graduated from flight school 10 years ago I would have been lucky to get a 23K a year job. Worked my ass off instructing for around 15K a year (with a side bartending job of 12K/year for only 2 nights a week). All of this and 40K in debt.


When I started my own business 6 years ago times were tough, but I have managed to make a LOT more money then I did as a pilot. I could have went through the motions and eventually earned a 6 figure airline job someday, but why wait?


Higher education is overated.

Interesting that was one of my daughter's earlier choices. I'm glad she changed her mind. I heard pilot pay was cut though.

CrazyPhuD
05-20-2011, 12:11 AM
That should be what the job of K-12. They're not into educating though but socializing.
There's many other ways to have a better educated population but it is not the proper role of the Federal govt.

Heh one could argue that K-12 right now is more of a mission to contain, not yet a glorified baby sitter but passing students who do jack shit because you want them out of your school almost makes them so.

The only thing you need to learn is school is how to learn, if you can learn that then frankly it's up to you to decide how far you go.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 12:13 AM
Heh one could argue that K-12 right now is more of a mission to contain, not yet a glorified baby sitter but passing students who do jack shit because you want them out of your school almost makes them so.

The only thing you need to learn is school is how to learn, if you can learn that then frankly it's up to you to decide how far you go.

I can agree with that....but they should learn how to do that in school and most don't. Learning requires good literacy.

Learning should be lifelong too. And one should be able to do most of it on their own. Not saying courses are invalid but one should be able to learn it that way.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 12:18 AM
Well fuck. Why did I go back to school then?

Silock
05-20-2011, 12:40 AM
Bachelor's degrees are the new high school diplomas. That's why I'm in grad school, but I have no illusions that I will fare any better than most.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 12:41 AM
Well ****. Why did I go back to school then?

Really? the fact that you don't have an answer to that is down right friggen scary. I'm speechless.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 12:43 AM
Really? the fact that you don't have an answer to that is down right friggen scary. I'm speechless.
Sarcasm, getcha some.

Discuss Thrower
05-20-2011, 12:44 AM
When I graduated from flight school 10 years ago I would have been lucky to get a 23K a year job. Worked my ass off instructing for around 15K a year (with a side bartending job of 12K/year for only 2 nights a week). All of this and 40K in debt.


When I started my own business 6 years ago times were tough, but I have managed to make a LOT more money then I did as a pilot. I could have went through the motions and eventually earned a 6 figure airline job someday, but why wait?


Higher education is overated.

Flight Schools are a whole 'nother ballgame, and you'll agree with me (though I'm still learning for my private). The logic in having neophyte pilots (~500 hours or so for CFI?) turn around in teach other newbie pilots is backasswards logic IMHO. Not saying that newly minted CFIs can't do the job, but it makes sense to compensate those who generally want to teach pilots in exchange for 1000hrs or so of experience rather than pay less experienced pilots above poverty wages who are only there to accrue hours so they can get on with a regional airline.

cdcox
05-20-2011, 12:44 AM
Well ****. Why did I go back to school then?

Because everyone in this thread who says a college education isn't all that and it doing wonderful things outside of their field...

has a college education.

An education is much more that career training. An education teaches you how to think and how to learn. And it opens doors for you that won't be open without a degree. BigDaddy is hiring college grads on commission only, not high school grads.

Sure just getting a degree is worthless if you don't have any ambition. But all the ambition in the world isn't going to get you very far if you are a dumb ass.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 12:49 AM
Bachelor's degrees are the new high school diplomas. That's why I'm in grad school, but I have no illusions that I will fare any better than most.

Create a business. The market has never been better for those who have 2 oz's of innovation and balls bigger than grape nuts. We are a society of losers dependent on the system that we want to reward us with a life of prosperity for the skill set of a transit driver. I can't wait for the age of entitlement to be put to death in a giant blaze of glory.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 12:57 AM
Create a business. The market has never been better for those who have 2 oz's of innovation and balls bigger than grape nuts. We are a society of losers dependent on the system that we want to reward us with a life of prosperity for the skill set of a transit driver. I can't wait for the age of entitlement to be put to death in a giant blaze of glory.

I find it humorous that you speak as if your way is the only way.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:07 AM
Because everyone in this thread who says a college education isn't all that and it doing wonderful things outside of their field...

has a college education.

An education is much more that career training. An education teaches you how to think and how to learn. And it opens doors for you that won't be open without a degree. BigDaddy is hiring college grads on commission only, not high school grads.

Sure just getting a degree is worthless if you don't have any ambition. But all the ambition in the world isn't going to get you very far if you are a dumb ass.

Some college grads are dumbasses too. Some people are book smart, street or common sense stupid or life stupid. What about all those people who grew up in the 1930's and 40's who were high school drop outs then which was no uncommon who started businesses and became millionaires?

And just look at the specious economic think some PhD's have. Too much time in an Ivory Tower can create other shortcomings.

A college education does not necessarily teach you "how" think or "how" learn. Not all classes or majors necessarily. How to learn should be taught much earlier anyway. That requires a set of tools lower schools should provide.

I personally like the general ed requirements a degree provides in addition to career training but nowadays I can't say it's always worth the investment. It's overpriced and somewhat of racket nowadays. Sorry, but the brick and mortar is going to be a dinosaur one of these days.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:08 AM
If my world blew up tomorrow what would I do? I can tell you in a second what I would do. I would find a small business in a hot area that isn't getting the job done and make a deal with the owner that if certain ridiculous unattainable goals (in his mind) are met I will get half the company and I would make damn sure I made it. My background before now was health clubs so I would look there first. Think about it for second, how many businesses do you know of that you frequent that could kick serious ass if they had their shit together. Find something that already works and figure out how to put a turbo unit on that mo and get paid. That's business 101. The problem with our educational institutions is they quit producing entrepreneurs a long time ago and created a student locked into indebted entitlement. No wonder Peter Theil gives 200G's to people with a great business plan if they will just drop out of college.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:10 AM
I find it humorous that you speak as if your way is the only way.

I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:12 AM
Bachelor's degrees are the new high school diplomas. That's why I'm in grad school, but I have no illusions that I will fare any better than most.

This is something I've heard from other college professors and nearly posted it but didn't want to get the "Oh she talked to someone again." But many of these guys encountered how little is taught in HS.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:13 AM
Some college grads are dumbasses too. Some people are books smart, street or common sense stupid or life stupid. What about all those people who grew up in the 1930's and 40's who were high school drop outs then which was no uncommon who started businesses and became millionaires?

A college education does not necessarily teach you "how" think or "how" learn. How to learn should be taught much earlier anyway. That requires a set of tools lower schools should provide.

I personally like the general ed requirements a degree provides in addition to career training but nowadays I can't say it's always worth the investment. It's overpriced and somewhat of racket nowadays. Sorry, but the brick and mortar is going to be a dinosaur one of these days.

Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will, but are you saying the typical class room setting of a college will become extinct due to online classes?

I would have to disagree if that's the case. The classroom setting offers so much more than sitting and looking at a computer screen. The conversation and the interaction are heads and tails much more conducive for learning, at least to me.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:17 AM
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.

Not specifically from that post exactly. Although it did drip with the same sentiment. I just take you as someone who is incredibly proud of what they have accomplished, and hey rightfully so, but also one who does not spend much time entertaining the thoughts of another viewpoint.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:21 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will, but are you saying the typical class room setting of a college will become extinct due to online classes?

I would have to disagree if that's the case. The classroom setting offers so much more than sitting and looking at a computer screen. The conversation and the interaction are heads and tails much more conducive for learning, at least to me.

That may be true and for some classes that may remain particularly where lab work is necessary. But it's already happening more and more. Colleges do more on-line now. Where I taught, they have gone to more on-line too cutting back faculty. Look at Full Sail Academy ...it runs 24 hours and some majors are all online and those used to be lab/studio classes. It's happening and it makes it cheaper and more affordable.

My kid did her Honors Biology using Florida Virtual School and our state legislature is mandating that more of these be used as part of budget cut-backs.

I just bought a course for my kid on writing an adventure novel by a published author. I looked at the first five lectures on my computer. It was awesome—just like having a professor lecture in a courseroom. Then there's a textbook that reinforces the lecture, a workbook and discussions and critiques on-line.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:21 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will, but are you saying the typical class room setting of a college will become extinct due to online classes?

I would have to disagree if that's the case. The classroom setting offers so much more than sitting and looking at a computer screen. The conversation and the interaction are heads and tails much more conducive for learning, at least to me.

LMFAO And don't forget a lifetime of massive student debt to fund those self-righteous holier than thou professors pensions.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:24 AM
LMFAO And don't forget a lifetime of massive student debt to fund those self-righteous holier than thou professors pensions.

Yup! Those heading to college still....use fastweb.com. Check it out. My physical therapist I had 4 years ago told me her mom got her $120k in scholarships online.....and they still come out with debt. I used fastweb and got my kid a housing scholarship. That's a big chunk right there.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:25 AM
That may be true and for some classes that may remain particularly where lab work is necessary. But it's already happening more and more. Colleges do more on-line now. Where I taught, they have gone to more on-line too cutting back faculty. Look at Full Sail Academy ...it runs 24 hours and some majors are all online and those used to be lab/studio classes. It's happening and it makes it cheaper and more affordable.

My kid did her Honors Biology using Florida Virtual School and our state legislature is mandating that more of these be used as part of budget cut-backs.

I just bought a course for my kid on writing an adventure novel by a published author. I looked at the first five lectures on my computer. It was awesome—just like having a professor lecture in a courseroom. Then there's a textbook that reinforces the lecture, a workbook and discussions and critiques on-line.

I haven't experienced the cost changes you speak of. The online classes at my school cost the same with the only advantage being the flexibility in scheduling.
As far as the experience I still disagree. Yes there were discussions and critiques but nowhere as near as you'd get in a classroom.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:26 AM
Not specifically from that post exactly. Although it did drip with the same sentiment. I just take you as someone who is incredibly proud of what they have accomplished, and hey rightfully so, but also one who does not spend much time entertaining the thoughts of another viewpoint.

I am entertaining reality USA today. The gravy train has left town. I can already tell you what my biggest disappointment is going to be. We didn't fire enough government employees. That being said what are your thoughts, I feel like entertaining them now. Let's keep them on target.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:29 AM
I haven't experienced the cost changes you speak of. The online classes at my school cost the same with the only advantage being the flexibility in scheduling.
As far as the experience I still disagree. Yes there were discussions and critiques but nowhere as near as you'd get in a classroom.

Some places but tuition at some schools that use it extensively is lower I noticed....like Full Sail. I mean Ringling is double the tuition at $32k per year then there's room and board. So that saves on room and board too. The schedule flexibility is good if you choose to work your way through too. The experience will be overlooked if someone can still get an education. But yeah, colleges push the "experience" too. You have to look at the cost though because it's expensive and more will look at the cost since it's going up faster than the rate of inflation when inflation was much lower.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:30 AM
Yup! Those heading to college still....use fastweb.com. Check it out. My physical therapist I had 4 years ago told me her mom got her $120k in scholarships online.....and they still come out with debt. I used fastweb and got my kid a housing scholarship. That's a big chunk right there.

Indebted servitude brought to you by the always compassionate self-serving capitalist hating libtard professors. Can I get a HELL YEA hamas?

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:30 AM
LMFAO And don't forget a lifetime of massive student debt to fund those self-righteous holier than thou professors pensions.

I'm not going into a "lifetime of massive student debt." Sure you can, but the majority of that is just being careless with the money. At this point I'll have taken out $2000 in loans for the year. To be honest, the majority of that was helping me fund my divorce. I have received Pell Grants. Next year I will be eligible for a couple of scholarships due to my gpa, as well as transfer scholarships for when I move to the University. I plan to use those in lieu of loans, as well as working. I not only don't live with my parents, I pay my own way and have sole custody of an 8 year old boy all the while receiving no support from his mother.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:34 AM
I'm not going into a "lifetime of massive student debt." Sure you can, but the majority of that is just being careless with the money. At this point I'll have taken out $2000 in loans for the year. To be honest, the majority of that was helping me fund my divorce. I have received Pell Grants. Next year I will be eligible for a couple of scholarships due to my gpa, as well as transfer scholarships for when I move to the University. I plan to use those in lieu of loans, as well as working. I not only don't live with my parents, I pay my own way and have sole custody of an 8 year old boy all the while receiving no support from his mother.

What do you want to do?

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:37 AM
I'm not going into a "lifetime of massive student debt." Sure you can, but the majority of that is just being careless with the money. At this point I'll have taken out $2000 in loans for the year. To be honest, the majority of that was helping me fund my divorce. I have received Pell Grants. Next year I will be eligible for a couple of scholarships due to my gpa, as well as transfer scholarships for when I move to the University. I plan to use those in lieu of loans, as well as working. I not only don't live with my parents, I pay my own way and have sole custody of an 8 year old boy all the while receiving no support from his mother.

For the record I know many people with 100k + student debt and I don't know what the average interest rate is on that but I would bet it is very high, 8%? Try paying that off if a regular job, ever.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:38 AM
I'm not going into a "lifetime of massive student debt." Sure you can, but the majority of that is just being careless with the money. At this point I'll have taken out $2000 in loans for the year. To be honest, the majority of that was helping me fund my divorce. I have received Pell Grants. Next year I will be eligible for a couple of scholarships due to my gpa, as well as transfer scholarships for when I move to the University. I plan to use those in lieu of loans, as well as working. I not only don't live with my parents, I pay my own way and have sole custody of an 8 year old boy all the while receiving no support from his mother.

You have to be a pauper to get those Pell Grants though. I don't think it's carelessness with money for all. I attended a forum at a good school and I was told average debt now is $45K and to just get used to it.

Here's a Pew Research report on how the more Americans perceive less value in college due to the cost.
http://pewsocialtrends.org/2011/05/15/is-college-worth-it/

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:38 AM
Some places but tuition at some schools that use it extensively is lower I noticed....like Full Sail. I mean Ringling is double the tuition at $32k per year then there's room and board. So that saves on room and board too. The schedule flexibility is good if you choose to work your way through too. The experience will be overlooked if someone can still get an education. But yeah, colleges push the "experience" too. You have to look at the cost though because it's expensive and more will look at the cost since it's going up faster than the rate of inflation when inflation was much lower.


Admittedly, my view of the experience is going to be a lot different than an 18 year olds. My wild oats have sailed a long time ago. I don't need the frat party, homecoming, etc. I need the education to help me get the kind of job that I want.

My tuition is considerably less than $32k per year as well. I chose to go to community college and get as much as I could from there before transferring to MSSU, mostly due to the cost structure. In the end I'll still get the same degree from the school, just cheaper.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 01:40 AM
Admittedly, my view of the experience is going to be a lot different than an 18 year olds. My wild oats have sailed a long time ago. I don't need the frat party, homecoming, etc. I need the education to help me get the kind of job that I want.

My tuition is considerably less than $32k per year as well. I chose to go to community college and get as much as I could from there before transferring to MSSU, mostly due to the cost structure. In the end I'll still get the same degree from the school, just cheaper.

WTF do you want to do? You don't go to college just to go to college like it's a status thing.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:41 AM
What do you want to do?

I'm starting with a degree in Psychology. I began with an interest in computer programming, but reality set in when I took my first math class. It would appear I do not have the same aptitude for it that I once thought I had.

I'm looking to get in the social services field, perhaps casework or counseling. I know not too glorious, but I think I would enjoy a job where I could legitimately help someone else.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:43 AM
You have to be a pauper to get those Pell Grants though. I don't think it's carelessness with money for all. I attended a forum at a good school and I was told average debt now is $45K and to just get used to it.

Here's a Pew Research report on how the more Americans perceive less value in college due to the cost.
http://pewsocialtrends.org/2011/05/15/is-college-worth-it/

I made $37000 last year and had sole custody of my son. I got $5000 in pell grants. I don't know if the cost of living is that much greater where you live than where I live but $37000 isn't pauper by my standards.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:45 AM
Admittedly, my view of the experience is going to be a lot different than an 18 year olds. My wild oats have sailed a long time ago. I don't need the frat party, homecoming, etc. I need the education to help me get the kind of job that I want.

My tuition is considerably less than $32k per year as well. I chose to go to community college and get as much as I could from there before transferring to MSSU, mostly due to the cost structure. In the end I'll still get the same degree from the school, just cheaper.

It sounded to me like you were at a community college which is a way to cut the cost plus: the classes are smaller, the profs don't have doctorates and some may not be as hard and there is less distractions like football games, frats and parties etc. I mean let's face it many profs don't want to teach lower undergrads and have assistants do a lot of the work. Classes are in huge auditoriums. I remember those. I had some smaller classes too.

Some CCs do a great job and some states have the same courses at them that are in their state universities. We have the same numbering system for courses here even. As far as I'm concerned you get what you want out of college and many still drop out due to lack of maturity. Most employers don't care that much about where you went anyway. They care more if you can DO the job.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:47 AM
I made $37000 last year and had sole custody of my son. I got $5000 in pell grants. I don't know if the cost of living is that much greater where you live than where I live but $37000 isn't pauper by my standards.

I almost said you have to make less than $40k. We weren't eligible BUT I can have my daughter file her own tax returns at age 20 and she'd likely qualify as she'd make much less than even you.


BTW I saw a survey about 4 months ago, that said most employers prefer grads from state universities and colleges. It didn't read why.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:48 AM
It sounded to me like you were at a community college which is a way to cut the cost plus: the classes are smaller, the profs don't have doctorates and some may not be as hard and there is less distractions like football games, frats and parties etc. I mean let's face it many profs don't want to teach lower undergrads and have assistants do a lot of the work. Classes are in huge auditoriums. I remember those. I had some smaller classes too.

Some CCs do a great job and some states have the same courses at them that are in their state universities. We have the same numbering system for courses here even. As far as I'm concerned you get what you want out of college and many still drop out due to lack of maturity. Most employers don't care that much about where you went anyway. They care more if you can DO the job.

Couldn't agree more. There is no doubt in mind that I can do any job put before me. That was instilled in me by my parents. The degree, however, will give me the opportunity to get that job.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:52 AM
Couldn't agree more. There is no doubt in mind that I can do any job put before me. That was instilled in me by my parents. The degree, however, will give me the opportunity to get that job.

Well, many can't just after graduating college. I couldn't although I thought I could. The degree is just the start. You put it altogether when on the job your first years and then grow.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 01:52 AM
I almost said you have to make less than $40k. We weren't eligible BUT I can have my daughter file her own tax returns at age 20 and she'd likely qualify as she'd make much less than even you.


BTW I saw a survey about 4 months ago, that said most employers prefer grads from state universities and colleges. It didn't read why.


I will be getting a degree from Missouri Southern State University, so I guess that bodes well for me. I'm taking classes at a community college right now because I can save money and then transfer.

As far as the "even you" comment, I don't necessarily get what you mean there, but okay. It isn't millions, but it was earned by my sweat and my hands. It kept a roof over my families heads and food in our bellies, and I am by no means ashamed of it.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 01:56 AM
As far as the "even you" comment, I don't necessarily get what you mean there, but okay.

It wasn't meant as a put-down to you since I have no idea of your age. It was in reference to her just having a part-time job at some point and a summer job. That wouldn't add up to much money qualifying her for a Pell Grant.

Dick Bull
05-20-2011, 02:00 AM
It wasn't meant as a put-down to you since I have no idea of your age. It was in reference to her just having a part-time job at some point and a summer job. That wouldn't add up to much money qualifying her for a Pell Grant.

I am 36. For the record, I wasn't offended, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not ashamed of my situation. After all, I'm the one who get me there.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 02:14 AM
I'm starting with a degree in Psychology. I began with an interest in computer programming, but reality set in when I took my first math class. It would appear I do not have the same aptitude for it that I once thought I had.

I'm looking to get in the social services field, perhaps casework or counseling. I know not too glorious, but I think I would enjoy a job where I could legitimately help someone else.

This has been the bees knees forever but lets take a closer look. We are looking at the plethera of applicants and people already raping the system to be paid small fortunes to prescribe psychotropics to leaches living off the system in a massively contacting economy. Hmmmm, I'm gonna let you make the call on this one.

Silock
05-20-2011, 02:48 AM
This is something I've heard from other college professors and nearly posted it but didn't want to get the "Oh she talked to someone again." But many of these guys encountered how little is taught in HS.

My situation might be a bit different, because I went to private school 6th-to-12th, but college was easier than high school. Grad school feels like what college should have felt like for me.

Garcia Bronco
05-20-2011, 07:02 AM
My situation might be a bit different, because I went to private school 6th-to-12th, but college was easier than high school. Grad school feels like what college should have felt like for me.

Same for me, but I didn't go to grad school because I didn't see the value in it.

Garcia Bronco
05-20-2011, 07:07 AM
That should be what the job of K-12. They're not into educating though but socializing.
There's many other ways to have a better educated population but it is not the proper role of the Federal govt.

Socializing is very important. Would you say then that the student loan industry should be facilitated at the state level for higher education?

ChiTown
05-20-2011, 07:37 AM
Same for me, but I didn't go to grad school because I didn't see the value in it.

My boss talked me into getting my MBA. It was truly a rewarding experience (from a knowledge and practical application standpoint) for me.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 08:18 AM
Socializing is very important. Would you say then that the student loan industry should be facilitated at the state level for higher education?

Oh it is? Depends on what they're being socialized in or how they're being socialized to me. Sorry, but one reason our Founders could write documents like the Declaration or the Constitution is because the schools they attended didn't make socializing the priority and many were also educated at home.

Our current system was based on Dewey an admirer of Stalin and a socialist who saw the schools not as places for learning the three Rs but socialization. I don't mean learning to be with others alone by that term alone. As for the other kind of socialization I see taking place at many schools isn't my idea of being social...and those skills can be gotten even without cookie-cutter schools.

Sorry, I'll take academics as the more important.

As to aid, I don't mandate an overall system for states. It's up to those states. I just know that cheap federal aid is a MAIN factor in driving up post secondary education costs. Just as govt has sought to make healthcare more affordable has driven up costs. We have a state lotto here that funds it as scholarships if you meet the requirements which wasn't too bad. It's been cut this year, and last, due to lotto sales being down 20% though. But a lot went on that.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 08:21 AM
My situation might be a bit different, because I went to private school 6th-to-12th, but college was easier than high school. Grad school feels like what college should have felt like for me.

Interesting. I didn't find college that hard except for a particular science class I had in a HUGE auditorium.

Jaric
05-20-2011, 08:35 AM
Seems Biggie was right.

Either you're slanging crack rock, or you got a wicked jump shot.

cdcox
05-20-2011, 08:49 AM
LMFAO And don't forget a lifetime of massive student debt to fund those self-righteous holier than thou professors pensions.

Most college and university professors don't have pensions. I have been in TIAA-CREF for 20 years, and most of my colleagues across the country are in the same plan. My employer contributes 10% of my salary to my TIAA-CREFF account and after that have ZERO liability for my future retirement. TIAA-CREF was founded in 1918 and has been the leader in providing retirement services for academicians for at least 40-50 years that I know of.

So academia was off the pension welfare wagon way before the rest of you blood-sucking Neanderthals who drag your knuckles through the real world. Yeah.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 10:02 AM
MotherLover,

I had a couple in me last night so please allow me to temper my previous statement. First of all I should have congratulated you on picking an area that sorely lacks ethics and desperately needs good people (psychiatry not social services). There certainly will be no lack of clients. I believe we are projecting record suicides this year and the second shoe hasn’t even fallen yet. I am also sure you did your due diligence and realize the ginormous sum of money currently being paid out by government to people in this area. I can’t blame you for wanting to have your fat meal ticket punched, who wouldn’t? Unfortunately this trend is so far beyond unsustainable I don’t have a word for it. I love psychology and will study the practical applications of it until I hit pay dirt. As far as private practice goes this is an industry reeking of corruption and doctors are right in the middle of it. We insist on addressing software problems with hardware solutions. WE also have a supplier and a consumer hell bent on keeping it that way and if the doctors go along for the ride they have life-long clients. I wish you the best. This is certainly a field where you can make a real difference for the few clients that actually want to fix what is wrong.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Most college and university professors don't have pensions. I have been in TIAA-CREF for 20 years, and most of my colleagues across the country are in the same plan. My employer contributes 10% of my salary to my TIAA-CREFF account and after that have ZERO liability for my future retirement. TIAA-CREF was founded in 1918 and has been the leader in providing retirement services for academicians for at least 40-50 years that I know of.

So academia was off the pension welfare wagon way before the rest of you blood-sucking Neanderthals who drag your knuckles through the real world. Yeah.

So people that actually work and create jobs are blood-sucking Neanderthals? NICE Then we wonder why our country is going to hell.

I was addressing the major universities where tuitions have shot the moon in recent years. I guess this hard working, tax paying, job producing productive member of society should have been a little more clear.

Brock
05-20-2011, 10:45 AM
So people that actually work and create jobs are blood-sucking Neanderthals? NICE Then we wonder why our country is going to hell.

I was addressing the major universities where tuitions have shot the moon in recent years. I guess this hard working, tax paying, job producing productive member of society should have been a little more clear.

Just admit you didn't know what you were talking about and move on.

BIG_DADDY
05-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Just admit you didn't know what you were talking about and move on.

I see your contribution to this thread is zero. Some things never change. I am not an expert on the subject but clients bitch about the rising costs and pensions all the time. This week had one pull 150k to pay off his daughters student loans because she will never be able to.

As Pension Costs Rise, Public Colleges Pay the Price

Andrew A. Nelles for The Chronicle
John A. Shuler, a librarian at the University of Illinois at Chicago,says he knew he might be able to make more money at another college. But he took the job at the Illinois system in part because its retirement benefits helped make up for a lower salary.
Enlarge Image
Andrew A. Nelles for The Chronicle
John A. Shuler, a librarian at the University of Illinois at Chicago,says he knew he might be able to make more money at another college. But he took the job at the Illinois system in part because its retirement benefits helped make up for a lower salary.
By Josh Keller

Public colleges tend to offer less in salaries than their private counterparts do. But many of them have had a secret weapon to retain faculty and staff members that private colleges cannot match: generous pensions.

Pensions have narrowed the compensation gap between public and private colleges. They can function as "golden handcuffs," rewarding workers who stay for decades and keeping them from fleeing to competitors during their most productive years.

But public pensions everywhere are in crisis, overwhelmed by a wave of retirements, decades of fiscal mismanagement, and investment losses during the recession. The erosion of traditional pensions is putting new pressure on many public colleges to remain competitive in the academic job market just as they deal with large cuts in state support.

The nation's pension shortfall is gigantic: States are $1-trillion short of being able to afford the retirement benefits they have promised workers, according to a study this year by the Pew Center on the States. Some economists say retirement plans in 20 states are on track to run out of money by 2025, making future cuts in public pensions that support college workers inevitable.

At some colleges, the pension crisis has already hit home.

In a move seen as a harbinger for other troubled states, Illinois recently approved sharply reduced benefits for new employees, and it raised the age at which employees can retire with full benefits to 67, the highest of any state. College officials there fear the reduced benefits will damage their ability to retain faculty and staff members in the future.

Related ContentInteractive Map: Retirement-Pay Shortfalls
Pension costs are spiraling out of control at the University of California, which, unlike most college systems, runs its own pension plan. Within two years, the 10-campus system expects to contribute $700-million per year just to keep its plan afloat—nearly as much as the cuts in state support last year that generated protests and threw the system into crisis. Employees are likely to have to pay at least 5 percent into their retirement plans after years of not paying anything.

"People have just not faced the coming train wreck," says Daniel L. Simmons, vice chair of the system's faculty senate.

Private colleges have suffered investment losses of their own, of course. But their retirement plans are less at risk, because they have largely abandoned defined-benefit plans, which guarantee employees a fixed level of benefits after they retire, in favor of defined-contribution plans, which put the investment risk on employees.

In recent years, many employees of public colleges have elected not to enroll in defined-benefit plans, which are typically more difficult to carry over to new jobs. But a majority of all workers at public colleges, and more than a third of full-time faculty members, are still enrolled in defined-benefit pension plans, surveys indicate. As lawmakers seek to escape pension shortfalls, new employees in those plans may receive lower retirement benefits, be forced to make higher contributions, or need to work longer until they can afford to retire.

Some experts say that in the rush to avoid financial ruin, states are ignoring larger questions of how to design sustainable retirement plans for college workers.

"You can't simply cut the pension and still be competitive in the academic-labor market unless you compensate people in some other way," says Jeffrey R. Brown, an economist at the University of Illinois and associate director of the Retirement Research Center at the National Bureau of Economic Research.

In the long run, Mr. Brown says, states' saving money on pensions puts pressure on colleges to raise tuition and to spend more on salaries to make up for lost compensation. "We make changes for future employees, and we congratulate ourselves for doing that," he says. "I'm afraid those decisions were made in a vacuum."

Golden Promises
The choices that got the University of California's $37-billion pension plan into trouble were shortsighted and ultimately destructive. They are also exceedingly common.

In 1990, the system's retirement plan appeared enormously wealthy: It was estimated to have nearly double the money needed to cover future retirement benefits. In response, the system's Board of Regents started a "contribution holiday," stopping any new contributions to the plan from both colleges and employees.

The strategy worked for a while. Workers received the equivalent of a salary increase, and campuses could spend money they had been devoting to the retirement plan on other projects. Despite the lack of new money, the plan remained fully financed without receiving any new money for 19 years.

But the recession reduced the university's investment by $16-billion, or a third of the plan's value. Now, in order to keep the fund solvent, the system and its employees must contribute billions of dollars in the coming years just as the system struggles to survive deep cuts in state support. Workers will most likely be paid less over all, and campuses will need to divert money from other priorities, creating new pressure to raise tuition.

In retrospect, much of the recent growth of the University of California was misleading, says Robert M. Anderson, a Berkeley economics professor and member of a panel that is proposing major changes in the system's pension plan.

"Over the last 19 years, the university took the money that it wasn't putting into the pension to open a new campus, grow existing campuses, grow the medical school and law schools, and so forth," Mr. Anderson says. "It's not that the money was wasted, but on the other hand, it covered up the fact that we weren't getting enough money from the state to cover the mission the state was expecting us to cover."

Unless it makes changes, the system is on track to spend more on retiree pensions and health care than it does on instruction by 2014, says Peter J. Taylor, the system's chief financial officer. "There's no way on God's green earth we can look our public in the eye, whether it be parents writing a tuition check or a legislator in Sacramento, in four years and say give us more money," he says.

To cut costs, the system is expected to propose a revamp this year, including raising the retirement age from 60 to 65, sharply increasing employer and employee contributions, and reducing the total amount of benefits. Like most pension changes, the majority will apply only to new workers, a restriction driven in many states by laws that prevent officials from touching the benefits of existing employees.

Faculty and staff members fear that the changes will weaken the system's generous benefits package, one of the main reasons they decided to work at the university. The moves will also require the system to contribute 10 percent of its payroll to the pension plan by 2012—the rough equivalent of a $700-million budget cut.

"It's not going to be easy," says Paul A. Staton, chief financial officer at the University of California at Los Angeles Medical Center. "It's going to be a big issue to deal with, and I don't think people fully understand the impact this is going to have."

Mr. Staton says the increased contributions would cost the medical center $100-million annually by 2012, or 7 percent of its operating budget. Making up that difference will involve sharply cutting expenses like purchases of new medical equipment, and burning up reserves, he says.

The rise in pension costs over the next five years is "so rapid it's hard to change your business that quickly," Mr. Staton says. "We're well positioned, but once it gets to $100-million, it's tough to make that up."

The Public Bargain
When he was deciding whether to take a position at the University of Illinois at Chicago in the early 1990s, John A. Shuler says, he knew he might be able to make more money at another college. But he took the job in part because the system's retirement benefits helped make up for the lower salary.

The same pattern holds across much of higher education. Faculty members at public institutions report being more satisfied with their retirement benefits, on average, while faculty members at private institutions report being more satisfied with their salaries, according to a nationally representative survey in 2008 conducted by UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute.

"That's how I understood the bargain when I came aboard here," says Mr. Shuler, an associate professor and librarian. "Obviously, it's no longer working like that."

Illinois makes the University of California look like a model of fiscal responsibility. The state has underfinanced its retirement plan every year since 1970, earning it the distinction of having the worst-financed public pension plan of any state.

In response to the shortfall, lawmakers enacted a bill this spring reducing benefits for new employees hired in 2011 or later. The bill raised the retirement age, cut the rate at which benefits are determined, and capped the salary that can be used to calculate pensions, at $106,000.

Economists say the changes will make only a small difference in Illinois's long-term pension woes. But college officials say the reduced benefits are already proving a barrier to attracting new employees.

"We're seeing this in our recruitment: prospects are concerned about the stability of pensions and health insurance in the state," says Steven D. Cunningham, associate vice president for administration at Northern Illinois University.

In their bid to reduce pension costs, lawmakers removed features unique to the university pension program, which is run separately from other state pension plans. For instance, the annual cost-of-living adjustment on pension benefits for new college employees will no longer be compounded, a seemingly minor change that Mr. Cunningham says could cost workers 30 percent of their benefits over a decade.

"This will certainly have an effect on the university's recruitment and retention, especially for employees who have options outside of the state," he says. "And it will probably lead to some pressure for us eventually to somehow augment compensation to compete in the marketplace."

That pressure is already being felt at the three-campus University of Illinois system, which will start discussions in the fall over how to keep its retirement benefits competitive. The system will consider starting its own defined-contribution plan to make up for the reduction in benefits, officials say.

Richard D. Ringeisen, chancellor of the Springfield campus, says that with efforts like the new supplemental plan, "we're going to be fine" recruiting faculty and staff members.

"We think the state's financial problems will preclude it from putting together attractive benefit packages," Mr. Ringeisen says. "We're looking at ways we can help ourselves."

But he also acknowledged that in a state with the budget problems of Illinois—the state's $13-billion budget deficit next year is estimated to be half of the total budget—preserving the level of worker compensation while meeting every other budget problem is getting harder. When asked if his campus would be able to handle higher retirement costs, he laughed.

"The money has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?" he says. "We have to have great faculty. There is no university without great faculty."

The Next Generation
As the academic work force has changed over the past few decades, some experts say colleges have missed an opportunity to rethink how retirement can better serve the needs of the next generation of workers. Faculty and staff members are far less likely to stay with a single institution throughout their careers. Workers tend to live far longer after they retire, collecting more money from retirement systems that promise them benefits until death. And younger workers are more likely to want control over their own retirement savings.

"One certainly could raise the question for whether the plans that have worked well for the last 25 years are the ones that could work well for the next 50 years," says Robert L. Clark, an economist at North Carolina State University who studies retirement.

Some states are switching to a hybrid model that requires employees to participate in both a defined-benefit plan and a defined-contribution plan. The strategy can spread the risk between employer and employee, retaining a guaranteed level of retirement benefits while reducing the future risk of large shortfalls.

Georgia switched to a hybrid plan for all new public employees in 2009, following in the footsteps of Washington, Oregon, and Indiana. Utah, seeking to escape a looming pension deficit, will encourage new employees to enroll in a hybrid plan starting next year.

Officials of TIAA-CREF, which offers defined-contribution plans at most colleges, say moving to a well-structured hybrid plan can provide more retirement security—and political cover—than abandoning pensions completely. They point to Orange County, in California, which worked with TIAA-CREF to layer a defined-contribution plan over its existing pension system.

"The Orange County model is getting a lot of traction. I don't think this is the first and last that we'll see," says Richard A. Hiller, the company's vice president for government markets.

The University of Missouri is considering adopting a hybrid plan or abandoning its defined-benefit plan altogether, officials say. Unlike the college systems in Illinois and California, Missouri's four-campus system has made consistent contributions to its self-run pension plan. But the recession has still left it with sharply rising pension costs.

Robert O. Weagley might seem like a natural proponent of keeping the plan the way it is. After all, Mr. Weagley, an associate professor of personal finance at Missouri's Columbia campus, anticipates a comfortable retirement. Another university looking to hire him would need to make quite an offer to attract him, he says: He would need nearly $500,000 in the bank when he retires in order to match the pension plan that he is guaranteed in Missouri.

But his son, a Ph.D. candidate in the finance department at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, helped to change his mind about hybrid plans.

"He goes, 'Dad, I don't want to have anything to do with a defined-benefit plan. I want a defined-contribution plan,'" Mr. Weagley says.

His son, Daniel R. Weagley, says he would prefer to take extra money in salary up front rather than depend on a pension plan determined by the government. Mobility is important, he says—he doesn't want to work in the same place his whole life.

"Besides, part of what worries me is that pensions can become underfunded and things like that," the younger Mr. Weagley says. "I'd much rather have a 401(k)."

Brock
05-20-2011, 12:03 PM
Prove to me you even read the article.

Pitt Gorilla
05-20-2011, 12:06 PM
LMFAO And don't forget a lifetime of massive student debt to fund those self-righteous holier than thou professors pensions.What pensions?

cdcox
05-20-2011, 12:55 PM
So people that actually work and create jobs are blood-sucking Neanderthals? NICE Then we wonder why our country is going to hell.

I was addressing the major universities where tuitions have shot the moon in recent years. I guess this hard working, tax paying, job producing productive member of society should have been a little more clear.

Yes, even the major universities do not have pensions. Almost all have the TIAA-CREF system. I'm a hard working, tax payer too. Education is one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. My Neanderthal comment was tongue in cheek, but I get a little tired of those who want to slam others based on perception, when they actually don't have a clue about the situation they are talking about.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 02:36 PM
Yes, even the major universities do not have pensions. Almost all have the TIAA-CREF system. I'm a hard working, tax payer too. Education is one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. My Neanderthal comment was tongue in cheek, but I get a little tired of those who want to slam others based on perception, when they actually don't have a clue about the situation they are talking about.

Well, isn't this splitting hairs somewhat? I mean a pension does what? It provides retirment income when one stops working. Isn't that what your TIAA-CREFF does? They may be different vehicles BUT seems the purpose is the same.


I have a tad bit of a problem on education being claimed as one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. I mean Gates, as well as jobs, was a drop out and their contributions revolutionized the economy. They were smart guys with an idea. The 19th century was the age of inventions before compulsory education and so many in college. I think good ideas and coming up with products, inventions and services people really are willing to exchange their money for could enjoy this claim. I am not saying it doesn't play a role but let's not limit ourself to conventional educational set-ups as the only way or exclude those without a formal education as not contributing. It's a bit elitist imo.

cdcox
05-20-2011, 03:00 PM
Well, isn't this splitting hairs somewhat? I mean a pension does what? It provides retirment income when one stops working. Isn't that what your TIAA-CREFF does? They may be different vehicles BUT seems the purpose is the same.



No not really. Pensions have an on going financial liability to the entity that offers the pension (ie. the employer or the state). It pushes off financial impact into the future. If a pensioner retires, that person still represents a financial obligation to the institution as long as they live. Pensions kill organizations because you promise benefits in the future that is someone else's headache to pay.

TIAA-CREF is a private company (Fortune 100) and is a pay-as-you-go system. Every month my employer contributes 10% of my salary to my TIAA-CREF account. That is the end of my employer's financial obligation to me after retirement. I can manage how it is invested. My balance goes up or down depending on the investment choices I make and any supplemental contributions I make. When I retire, I purchase an life annuity with the money in my account that provides my income during my retirement years. My retirement income depends on the balance in the account at the point of retirement. If I would retire today, neither the university nor the state would have one penny of obligation remaining toward my retirement, no matter how long I live. TIAA-CREF will own that responsibility. Sure there is some risk, but it is backed by real dollars in a real account and the annuity payouts are based on a large base of investors and backed by actuarial science.

The history of TIAA-CREF is pretty interesting. A success story for socialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIAA-CREF

cdcox
05-20-2011, 03:06 PM
I have a tad bit of a problem on education being claimed as one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. I mean Gates, as well as jobs, was a drop out and their contributions revolutionized the economy. They were smart guys with an idea. The 19th century was the age of inventions before compulsory education and so many in college. I think good ideas and coming up with products, inventions and services people really are willing to exchange their money for could enjoy this claim. I am not saying it doesn't play a role but let's not limit ourself to conventional educational set-ups as the only way or exclude those without a formal education as not contributing. It's a bit elitist imo.

You build your case on one anectodotal case (Bill Gates) or go back to the olden days when technology could be understood without much training. I build my case on statistics:

These stats are based upon the percentage of a nations population between, 25 and 64, that has obtained an associates degree or higher.

1) Russian Federation 54 percent
2) Canada 48.3 percent
3) Israel 43.6 percent
4) Japan 41 percent
5) New Zealand 41 percent
6) United States 40.3 percent
7) Finland 36.4 percent
8) Korea 34.6 percent
9) Norway 34.2 percent
10) Australia 33.7 percent
11) Estonia 33.3 percent
12) Ireland 32.2 percent
13) Denmark 32.2 percent
14) Belgium 32.1 percent
15) United Kingdom 31.8 percent
16) Switzerland 31.3 percent

By and large there is a strong correlation between education and standard of living for the general population. It isn't the whole story, but it is a very significant variable.

Garcia Bronco
05-20-2011, 04:21 PM
Gates and Jobs are high IQ dudes that didn't need degrees. They could have taught classes as undergrads. Not the best example to make that point.

DaKCMan AP
05-20-2011, 05:33 PM
This topic is one you can't generalize. Are you likely to get a high ROI with an undergraduate degree in history? Probably not. However, people can still go and get a degree in Engineering and find gainful employment with just a bachelors degree. This country has a huge deficit of engineers. People claiming that college is a huge waste of money is scary because, while it isn't for everyone, there are several important professions where higher education is a necessity and requirement.

FTR, I have a B.S. and M.S. in Electrical Engineering. No student loans, no debt. I graduated with my Masters when I was 21 years old and I've been employed with a Fortune 100 company since, and doing very well.

Good for them. That's more the exception than the norm. I never heard of any internships that are funded by employers. I know of corps where you can work and go to school at night and get it paid for that way. That's what my ex did.

I had multiple summer internships while in school and they were always paid.

My boss talked me into getting my MBA. It was truly a rewarding experience (from a knowledge and practical application standpoint) for me.

I'm a little over halfway through with my MBA. It's exciting for me because it's completely different from Engineering school and allows me to think differently and analyze situations and strategies with a different perspective while still applicable to Engineering and technology.

Again, the MBA will be completed without student loans, without debt, and without any employer assisted funds.

notorious
05-20-2011, 07:27 PM
Interesting that was one of my daughter's earlier choices. I'm glad she changed her mind. I heard pilot pay was cut though.

Don't get me wrong, it is very enjoyable, and I still fly for a few people once a week/two weeks.


But, the payout in the end is questionable IMO. Never home, but make decent money. Some of my friends thrive in those conditions, but it wasn't for me.

Pitt Gorilla
05-20-2011, 09:07 PM
Well, isn't this splitting hairs somewhat? I mean a pension does what? It provides retirment income when one stops working. Isn't that what your TIAA-CREFF does? They may be different vehicles BUT seems the purpose is the same.


I have a tad bit of a problem on education being claimed as one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. I mean Gates, as well as jobs, was a drop out and their contributions revolutionized the economy. They were smart guys with an idea. The 19th century was the age of inventions before compulsory education and so many in college. I think good ideas and coming up with products, inventions and services people really are willing to exchange their money for could enjoy this claim. I am not saying it doesn't play a role but let's not limit ourself to conventional educational set-ups as the only way or exclude those without a formal education as not contributing. It's a bit elitist imo.You aren't seriously claiming that a pension and TIAA-CREFF are the same thing, are you?

Mr. Kotter
05-20-2011, 10:15 PM
You aren't seriously claiming that a pension and TIAA-CREFF are the same thing, are you?

TIAA-CREFF is a pension. Duh. My FIL has done very well with it; even he calls it his "pension."

:hmmm:

cdcox
05-20-2011, 10:17 PM
TIAA-CREFF is a pension. Duh. My FIL has done very well with it; even he calls it his "pension."

:hmmm:

See post 109.

Mr. Kotter
05-20-2011, 10:28 PM
See post 109.

I understand the distiction you seek. However, IMHO it's a semantic difference/splitting hairs, to agree with BEP :spock: .

Different vehicles for the same "end" IMHO. :shrug:

A "good pension," but a pension nonetheless....in the sense of pension as secured and guaranteed retirement income.

cdcox
05-20-2011, 10:48 PM
I understand the distiction you seek. However, IMHO it's a semantic difference/splitting hairs, to agree with BEP :spock: .

Different vehicles for the same "end" IMHO. :shrug:

A "good pension," but a pension nonetheless....in the sense of pension as secured and guaranteed retirement income.

It's the same outcome to me, but not the same outcome to who is paying the pension (tax payers). When I retire, I will not cost the tax payers of my state a single cent. Not one cent. That is a huge difference.

Here is the insanity of a pension. Some bureaucrat makes me a promise of a fat pension in 1990. He/she gets to be the good guy giving away the treats, but doesn't have to come up with any of that money. All of that liability gets forwarded to the poor bureaucrat that is in that position in 2025 when I retire. That is what the TIAA-CREF system avoids.

Mr. Kotter
05-20-2011, 11:00 PM
It's the same outcome to me, but not the same outcome to who is paying the pension (tax payers). When I retire, I will not cost the tax payers of my state a single cent. Not one cent. That is a huge difference.

Here is the insanity of a pension. Some bureaucrat makes me a promise of a fat pension in 1990. He/she gets to be the good guy giving away the treats, but doesn't have to come up with any of that money. All of that liability gets forwarded to the poor bureaucrat that is in that position in 2025 when I retire. That is what the TIAA-CREF system avoids.

Which, FWIW, is no different from the entirely self-funded public employee/teacher "retirement" plans/pensions of more "conservative" states, like, say SD, who often get lumped together with liberal states who's politicians mouths wrote checks that they are now hedging on paying for...and whose taxpayers are, now understandably, sayin' "WTF?"

cdcox
05-20-2011, 11:03 PM
Which, FWIW, is no different from the entirely self-funded public employee/teacher "retirement" plans/pensions of more "conservative" states, like, say SD, who often get lumped together with liberal states who's politicians mouths wrote checks that they are now hedging on paying for...and whose taxpayers are, now understandably, sayin' "WTF?"

Is SD pay as they go? Do you know how much money is in your account?

Mr. Kotter
05-20-2011, 11:12 PM
Is SD pay as they go? Do you know how much money is in your account?

Yep. And they adjust pay-outs based on inflation too.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 09:37 AM
You build your case on one anectodotal case (Bill Gates) or go back to the olden days when technology could be understood without much training. I build my case on statistics:

These stats are based upon the percentage of a nations population between, 25 and 64, that has obtained an associates degree or higher.

1) Russian Federation 54 percent
2) Canada 48.3 percent
3) Israel 43.6 percent
4) Japan 41 percent
5) New Zealand 41 percent
6) United States 40.3 percent
7) Finland 36.4 percent
8) Korea 34.6 percent
9) Norway 34.2 percent
10) Australia 33.7 percent
11) Estonia 33.3 percent
12) Ireland 32.2 percent
13) Denmark 32.2 percent
14) Belgium 32.1 percent
15) United Kingdom 31.8 percent
16) Switzerland 31.3 percent

By and large there is a strong correlation between education and standard of living for the general population. It isn't the whole story, but it is a very significant variable.

Really? You skipped Hong Kong which has a very high standard of living and the freest markets in the world — all signs of a vibrant economy. In fact they are weathering this economic crisis better than us. Those stats don't tell the whole story and those stats don't show the correlation you think they do. Remember, correlation isn't necessarily causation. For one, America has dropped to 6th place in standard of living and yet we have more in college than ever before. For another, the Russian Federation is at the top and you're using that as an example of a strong economy? That would mean they have a very high standard of living and most don't. I have yet to see a list where Russia even appears on in the top 10 in standard of living. They don't come close to us even post Soviet Union. This is also true of some of the other countries on your list. BTW Gates/Jobs is not merely anecdotal it's a major historical example that is bald and basic FACT. Failing to acknowledge this is a huge flaw and denial.

As for the 19th century not being hi-technology, science discoveries build on previous innovations over time gradiently. You can't expect a huge leap to hi-tech discoveries to occur before other earlier ones every time. Also, only crediting hi-tech as having value is elitist and subjective since there are many other innovations that aren't high-tech that improved lives, even saved lives. Like discovering that doctors not washing their hands by Semmelweis which saved the lives of women during childbirth. In fact, improvements in cleanliness is the biggest factor for better health: garbage disposals, refrigeration, automobiles doing away with horse feces in the streets. Then there's those little conveniences like the paper-clip, the ball-point pen or velcro. To say otherwise is the bias of an elitist.

The main thing you overlook, is that it's all well and good that there are smart people who seek out higher education, but it is USELESS without the entrepreneurs putting those products, inventions and services into the hands of the people which creates a market for them. Plus it has to be products that people are willing to exchange their money for or there is NO market for it no matter how erudite, hi-tech or how many doctorates the creator had.

Then there's the political make-up of a country. It's actually nations that have the greater amount of natural law under girding them which allows liberty, which leads to a free-exchange of ideas which leads to entrepreneurs seeing a market for those things, which leads to a strong economy. Doing business in nations without the protection of natural law carries higher risks. The former Soviet Union had very many highly educated people in science and math but their economy at that time was abysmal.

Why are science people coming to America to work instead? Who are these major discoverers for newer technology or innovations from each of those countries? I don't know of any major one discoveires from Sweden, Russia, Canada, Finland, Denmark, Korea, Israel, NZ or Russia. Fill me in. I am curious. Gates and Jobs are Americans who dropped out.

Oh, btw, Isaac Newton and Einstein dropped out of school. ( so did astronaut John Glenn) Some top science and technical people had very unconventional educations. A degree doesn't necessarily create a risk-taker, or someone who who go against the grain to revolutionize industries like Gates and Jobs did. Their ideas were poo-poo'd by the hi-tech educated. Nor does it mean every graduate has top talent. In fact conventional educations can suppress trail-blazing individuals. They can be crushed and bored.

Nope, sorry trailblazers and revolutionaries are special individuals who had personal qualities that current schooling does NOT necessarily give someone. It usually pre-exists. Innovation the major driver of an economy. Innovation is a change in the thought process for doing something. That fits Gates and Jobs perfectly and their impact was MAJOR. Again, natural law and liberty are required for that to happen, so I'd say liberty is the most major driver of an economy. Many of those countries on your list vary in that quality with some being low in it.

If anything, I would say a strong and growing economy leads more people able to get an education—which is the other way around than what you're claiming. In fact, that's what happened during the Industrial Revolution before mandatory public education. Yeah, the kids worked originally but the trend by parents to remove them and put them in schools grew and grew because they could now afford to. In fact, American grew from a backwards wilderness in record-breaking time, compared to other New World countries such as So America. That was without compulsory education even. That was before college educations were routine. That shows, you don't have a real WHY for what drives an economy most.

I argue for education and you argue for schooling and a piece of paper. Remember I don't think education isn't a factor, I just don't think college is a panacea for it or that a piece of paper means a student received one, or a good one. Nor do I see the weight you put on it for an economy. It requires other things: work ethic, ability to produce in abundance products that are exchangeable in a market, leaders, entrepreneurs, managerial talents including being able to manage one's knowledge, organization, clear goals and good communication. There are individuals with these other abilities or talents who are not highly educated who drive this economy. Small businesses are huge drivers of our own economy. Some tech nerds just cannot communicate effectively or well. Nor does a nation with severe entitlement mentality drive an economy. ( what we have today and how what may students are educated in) It needs producers.

heapshake
05-21-2011, 10:25 AM
Higher education supplements the individual. Higher education is just information that means little without the human traits of drive and ambition.

It sounds to me like the grad quoted in the article is missing drive and ambition. He claims that others from "lesser schools" with jobs are connected or lucky. Maybe they're willing to work harder and they know that the name on the diploma might get one an interview - but it won't get one a job.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 10:32 AM
Really? You skipped Hong Kong which has a very high standard of living and the freest markets in the world. Those stats don't tell the whole story and those stats don't show the correlation you think they do. Remember, correlation isn't necessarily causation. For one, America has dropped to 6th place in standard of living and yet we have more in college than ever before. For another, the Russian Federation is at the top and you're using that as an example of a strong economy? That would mean they have a standard of living his very high. I have yet to see a list where Russia even appears on in the top 10 of any list for a high standard of living. They don't come close to us even post Soviet Union. This is also true of some of the other countries on your list. BTW Gates/Jobs is not merely anecdotal it's a historical example that is bald and basic fact. Failing to acknowledge this is a huge flaw.

As for the 19th century using not being hi-technology, science discoveries build on previous other ones gradiently. You can't expect a hug leap to hi-tech discoveries to occur before other earlier ones? The main thing you overlook, is that it's all well and good that there are smart people who seek out such an education, but it is USELESS without the entrepreneurs putting those products, inventions and services into the hands of the people. Plus it has to be the products that people are willing to exchange their money for or there is NO market for it no matter how erudite and hi-tech.

It's actually nations that have the greater amount of natural law under girding them which leads to liberty which leads to a free-exchange of ideas which leads to entrepreneurs seeing a market for those things which leads to a strong economy. Doing business in nations without the protection of natural law carries higher risks.

Why are science people coming to America to work instead? Who are these major discoverers for newer technology or innovations from each of those countries? I don't know of any from Sweden, Russia, Canada, Finland, Denmark, Korea, Israel, NZ or Russia. Fill me in. I am curious. Gates and Jobs are Americans who dropped out.

Oh, btw, Isaac Newton and Eistein dropped out of school too. Some top science and technical people had very unconventional educations. A degree doesn't necessarily create a risk-taker, or someone who who go against the grain to revolutionize industries like Gates and Jobs. Nor does it mean every graduate has top talent. In fact conventional educations can suppress these kinds of trail blazing individuals.

Nope, sorry trailblazers and revolutionaries are special individuals who had personal qualities that schooling* does NOT give someone. It usually pre-exists. Innovation the major driver of an economy. Innovation is a change in the thought process for doing something. That fits Gates and Jobs perfectly and their impact was MAJOR. Again, natural law and liberty are required for that to happen, so I'd say liberty is the most major driver of an economy. Many of those countries on your list vary in that quality with some being low in it.

If anything, I would say a strong and growing economy leads more people able to get an education—which is the other way around than what you're claiming. In fact, that's what happened during the Industrial Revolution before mandatory public education. Yeah, the kids worked originally but the trend grew and grew.

* schooling as opposed to education since education can occur in an unconventional atmosphere.
I argue for education and you argue for schooling and a piece of paper. Remember I don't think education isn't a factor, I just don't think college is a pancea for it. It requires other things: work ethic, ability to produce in abundance products that are exchangeable in a market, leaders, entreprenuers, managerial talents including being able to manage one's knowledge, organization, clear goals and good communication. Some tech nerds just cannot communicate effectively or well.

You seemed to have missed where I said "It isn't the whole story, but it is a very significant variable." Those other variables are why Russia doesn't follow the trend. Yes, there are other factors that determine a nation's standard of living, but education is huge.

You need to look up the word anecdotal. Just because something is a fact, doens't mean it isn't anectdotal.

You were the one touting inventions from the 19th century by non-educated people as justification for saying education was over rated. That may have worked then, but it doesn't apply now en bulk. Even Bill Gates would not agree to that statement. How many high school hackers do you think he hires to build the next version of Windows? Even outside of MicroSoft Bill Gates depends on hundreds of thousands of educated high tech workers developing the next generation of microchips. All of those people have college degrees, many of them advanced degrees.

You say: "It's actually nations that have the greater amount of natural law under girding them which leads to liberty which leads to a free-exchange of ideas which leads to entrepreneurs seeing a market for those things which leads to a strong economy." I say: "Show me the data". The Chinese economy is doing very well. In the cities, it is similar to Western economies (rual areas are still very poor). Where is their natural law? You argue from your ideology and from anecdotes but not from data or reality.

You ask for foreign born scientists who have made it in the US: You seem to favor commercial technologies (igoring all of the fundamental science that is developed by hundreds of people working for years to make each commercial innovation possible all of whom have advanced degrees). I give you Min Kao, the founder of Garmin, born in Tiawan, did his graduate work in the US. Here is non-anectdotal data:

"We found that the trend Saxenian documented had become a nationwide phenomenon. According to the studies, in a quarter of the U.S. science and technology companies founded from 1995 to 2005, the chief executive or lead technologist was foreign-born. In 2005, these companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 workers. In some industries, the numbers were much higher; in Silicon Valley, the percentage of immigrant-founded startups had increased to 52 percent. Indian immigrants founded 26 percent of these startups—more than the next four groups from Britain, China, Taiwan, and Japan combined." http://www.kauffman.org/entrepreneurship/foreign-born-entrepreneurs.aspx

I will guarantee you every one of these foreign entrepreneurs had a BS degree and most had advanced degrees. (Coming to the US to attend our graduate schools is by far the most important mechanism by which the US attracts foreign brainpower).

Rain Man
05-21-2011, 10:48 AM
I'm as pro-education as anyone, but I'm starting to think that we have a supply/demand problem that is coming to fruition. For decades society has been telling kids to get a degree get a degree get a degree, and the kids have been increasingly complying. More and more people are getting bachelor's and master's degrees (and probably Ph.D.'s, though that's a different issue).

To some extent, it's a good thing in that it presumably improves the education level of the population, which meets our needs as the country continues evolving toward a services economy instead of goods. But I think there are also three bad elements:

- First, I suspect that some of the students getting degrees may not be suited for a "thinking" career. But they do as they're told, and they get a degree and go into debt and lose several years of earnings doing it, and they are really aren't well-suited (okay, I'll say it, not smart enough) to hold a high-wage service industry job. So what now? Go back and start over? Now they've lost several years and are in debt and have been brainwashed against technician and skilled trade jobs, so they end up working in low-wage service jobs. Not a win.

- Second, the message for decades has been "get a degree". That's not the right message. The message should be "get an education". Students who may not be savvy about the difference then go to low-end schools (e.g., private-sector schools) and get the easiest degree they can get, but employers know the difference. A degree should be more than a piece of paper, and it increasingly is not. My wife's MBA from a top-20 school took 2.5 years of work, but I see resumes from people now who get an MBA from some storefront "college" in a year or less. That doesn't fly with the people making hiring decisions.

- Third, and related to the second point, all degrees are not equal. Students have been told "get a degree", but aren't amply trained to see the pros and cons of each degree other than their own initial interest. If you want a degree that earns good money and a job, get an engineering or math or accounting degree or something (though if you aren't interested in it, know that your job will not be fun). If you have an interest in literature or history or music or women's studies, go for it, but recognize that you're doing it for the love of the subject and to learn, and that it won't typically translate to a job afterwards. Getting a degree will probably always open doors that aren't otherwise open, but some degrees open more doors than others, and some schools open more doors than others.

I really like the primary educational system that I posted in a thread in DC, where there are no grades and no grade levels, and you only continue learning Level X when you have mastered Level X-1. I think you combine this with a tracking system where students are funneled into course tracks that match both their aptitudes and their interests. If a student simply isn't academically oriented, get him or her the base skills and let them leave school earlier for a lower wage, lower skill job, but where they can have more years of work. For other students, don't push them into college if they don't have the aptitude or interests to succeed in a job that requires a college education. While a college degree is great, and in a perfect world everyone would enjoy and pursue education, the real world isn't like that, and I don't think all students should be pushed towards college. Otherwise, the end result is a glut of students with lots of debt, little learning, and a $27,000 starting salary.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 11:13 AM
You seemed to have missed where I said "It isn't the whole story, but it is a very significant variable." Those other variables are why Russia doesn't follow the trend. Yes, there are other factors that determine a nation's standard of living, but education is huge.

You need to look up the word anecdotal. Just because something is a fact, doens't mean it isn't anectdotal.
My problem is that you were dismissing valid evidence since anecdotal means untrustworthy. This is not the case here. In fact history is strewn with examples.

You, like the left, try to claim human action ( what economics really is) can be reduced to mere numbers, mathematics or molecules that can be determined by the scientific method alone. Even though those even say correlation doesn't equal causation. Economics is not mathematics it is a branch of ethics of human action since it's about choices people make.

You were the one touting inventions from the 19th century by non-educated people as justification for saying education was over rated. That may have worked then, but it doesn't apply now en bulk.
What worked before can work again and Gates and Jobs are examples of that.
I lived in Mass near Boston where the mini-computer industry was big and the highly degreed completely poo-poo'd the idea of a personal computer. Yet they were completely wrong and they suffered for it. When it hit, that industry went belly-up and fast. It affected the economy up there. So you missed my point.

Even Bill Gates would not agree to that statement. How many high school hackers do you think he hires to build the next version of Windows? Even outside of MicroSoft Bill Gates depends on hundreds of thousands of educated high tech workers developing the next generation of microchips. All of those people have college degrees, many of them advanced degrees.

The worker-bees, yes. Most of those types, in general, aren't really the revolutionizers or trail-blazers though. So it doesn't imply that they are the main drivers of the economy.

I see my essential point was missed.

You say: "It's actually nations that have the greater amount of natural law under girding them which leads to liberty which leads to a free-exchange of ideas which leads to entrepreneurs seeing a market for those things which leads to a strong economy."

I say: "Show me the data". The Chinese economy is doing very well. In the cities, it is similar to Western economies (rual areas are still very poor). Where is their natural law? You argue from your ideology and from anecdotes but not from data or reality.

First off, I do not argue from my ideology and we're exchanging ideas here. In fact I could say the same of you....that you argue from a statist ideology as well as your own vested interests—your job as an educator.

Now the reason, I claim to not argue from ideology, is the same reason I've posted before:
I have moved from being left of center, from a liberal D home as I have learned more about economics, politics, history including the history of liberty and economics. Most historians don't know economics and cover it sparingly. I have been able to change my thinking due to inductive reasoning as opposed to deductive reasoning which an ideologue tends to use only. That I rely on some deductive reasoning now is only because I have learned some things hold true and some things don't.

As for China, it has state-capitalism where those people do not have political rights. It's really a bad example. If the govt of China decides to change something and it's not good for businesses then American enterprises over there are screwed. That's where the risk is. Not that I think this has anything to do with a free market, it's classic mercantilism arranged by govt. That country relies on some involuntary servitude too. But where are their major innovations to the world?

You ask for foreign born scientists who have made it in the US: You seem to favor commercial technologies (igoring all of the fundamental science that is developed by hundreds of people working for years to make each commercial innovation possible all of whom have advanced degrees). I give you Min Kao, the founder of Garmin, born in Tiawan, did his graduate work in the US. Here is non-anectdotal data:
Sorry, but that's an assumption on your part that I was ignoring fundamental science....which existed before the 20th century leading to commercial innovation. You missed my point if that's what you think. I was referring to how people were educated, the level of education and how the success of that science relies on markets and entreprenuer just as much—even more. There were far fewer that were highly educated at that time, yet the economy grew and rapidly.

Now what use is fundamental science if it has no application outside Ivory Towers? It serves a purpose I would hope. I mean you're the one arguing for that degree in a commercial sense. I am just responding to it.

As for your foreigners here, they can reap the rewards of our liberty and markets whereas they can't in their home countries even if educated with an advanced degree. So if they get educated here, why haven't they gone back home? Thank you for making my point even more.

I will guarantee you every one of these foreign entrepreneurs had a BS degree and most had advanced degrees. (Coming to the US to attend our graduate schools is by far the most important mechanism by which the US attracts foreign brainpower).
I didn't say education wasn't a factor either—that there was a difference between schooling and being educated. I was disagreeing it was the biggest factor and that conventional education paths were the only valid ones to get the same results.

You want non-anecdotal evidence and which is not just cherry-picking one industry:

The study, which compiled data on 16 industry sectors from 1998 to 2004, found strong small business growth in health and social services, arts and entertainment, and food services. 2004 data are the most recent available.

According to the study, small business contributions amounted to more than 50% of GDP in 5 of the 16 sectors and more than 80% of output in 2 sectors-construction and "other" services. SBA defines "other" as such things as equipment repair and dry cleaning. Small business share of total GDP peaked at 50.7% in 2004.
http://www.uschambermagazine.com/article/small-business-drives-the-us-economy


Bureau of Labor Statistics, Office of Occupational Statistics and Employment Projections



Employment 2008
1 Educational services, public and private 13,471,100
( This is largest but they aren't doing a very good job either.)
2 Hospitals, public and private 5,667,200
3 Full-service restaurants 4,598,100
4 Limited-service eating places 4,137,300
5 Employment services 3,144,400
6 Grocery stores 2,497,300
7 Offices of physicians 2,265,700
8 Management of companies and enterprises 1,894,600
9 Depository credit intermediation 1,819,500
10 Nursing care facilities 1,613,700
11 Department stores 1,557,000
12 Hotels (except casino), motels, and all other traveler accommodation 1,531,800
13 Other general merchandise stores 1,490,100
14 Computer systems design and related services 1,450,300
15 Automobile dealers 1,186,000
16 Legal services 1,163,700
17 Clothing stores 1,133,700
18 Building material and supplies dealers 1,114,600
19 Management, scientific, and technical consulting services 1,008,900
20 Plumbing, heating, and air-conditioning contractors 982,900
21 General freight trucking 976,800
22 Home health care services 958,000
23 Accounting, tax preparation, bookkeeping, and payroll services 950,100
24 Electrical contractors and other wiring installation contractors 909,800
25 Private households; all jobs 891,800
26 Child day care services 859,200
27 Wholesale electronic markets and agents and brokers 850,100
28 Gasoline stations 843,400
29 Residential building construction 832,100
30 Nonresidential building construction 827,200
31 Offices of dentists 818,800
32 Postal service 747,500
33 Pharmacies and drug stores 742,900
34 Grocery and related product merchant wholesalers 730,600
35 Investigation, guard, and armored car services 690,800
36 Community care facilities for the elderly 684,900
37 Warehousing and storage 672,800
38 Insurance agencies and brokerages 670,100
39 Landscaping services 669,400
40 Wired telecommunications carriers 666,100
41 Other specialty trade contractors 661,600
42 Professional and commercial equipment and supplies merchant wholesalers 654,800
43 Personal care services 621,600
44 Crop production; all jobs 618,300
45 Lessors of real estate 597,700
46 Printing and related support activities 594,100
47 Plastics product manufacturing 589,000
48 Services for the elderly and persons with disabilities 584,700
49 Direct insurance (except life, health, and medical) carriers 569,200
50 Research and development in the physical, engineering, and life sciences 558,000


Before you charge that most of these require some degree. I say many of them can be learned via apprenticehips plus some classroom instruction. Many don't require advanced degrees. Some do and I consider engineering and being a doctor to be in those categories. For instance teachers at one time just went two years and they did a better job back then too. Now they have advanced degrees and the quality has declined.

http://www.acinet.org/indview3.asp?printer=&id=,8&nodeid=47&group=2&showall=no

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 11:27 AM
Second, the message for decades has been "get a degree". That's not the right message. The message should be "get an education".

Good point. I'd add that the reason for getting a degree has changed. I went to a forum at my kid's former school when she was entering HS. The speaker from the school lcited a survey/poll from an education magazine. I wrote the name of the mag but I tossed it somewhere. Anyhow, the answers given by students back in the 60's through 70's on why they were going to college was "to get an education." Today that answer is to "make a lot of money."

Employers know being a graduate is no indication the person can do the job. I say that takes several more years on the job. Education is never done anyway.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 11:49 AM
http://www.economist.com/node/17723223?fsrc=scn/tw/te/mr/academic


Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic
Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time


Whining PhD students are nothing new, but there seem to be genuine problems with the system that produces research doctorates (the practical “professional doctorates” in fields such as law, business and medicine have a more obvious value). There is an oversupply of PhDs. Although a doctorate is designed as training for a job in academia, the number of PhD positions is unrelated to the number of job openings. Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things. The fiercest critics compare research doctorates to Ponzi or pyramid schemes.

I don't agree with his including "business" as being one of the practical categories though.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 12:16 PM
What worked before can work again and Gates and Jobs are examples of that.
I lived in Mass near Boston where the mini-computer industry was big and the highly degreed completely poo-poo'd the idea of a personal computer. Yet they were completely wrong and they suffered for it. When it hit, that industry went belly-up and fast. It affected the economy up there. So you missed my point.




Uh, the first mass-produced dos-based PC was produced by IBM. Every one of the people involved in the hardware side had a BS degree or more. They recognized the innovation just fine, they were just too big to respond nimbly. Your revisionist history is laughable.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 12:22 PM
The worker-bees, yes. Most of those types, in general, aren't really the revolutionizers or trail-blazers though. So it doesn't imply that they are the main drivers of the economy.

I see my essential point was missed.


Every revolutionary technology idea needs a well trained worker base to make it worth any thing. A trained work base is a huge driver of the economy.

I'll argue that most innovators have college educations. A few don't. It's not essential. Even what Jobs and Gates did would have been impossible without innovations made by PhD level people working at Intel and Motorola. The transistor was invented by a PhD at Bell labs. This is why your examples of Jobs and Gates are anectdotal. From wikipeida:

"(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Are you really not familiar with this use of the term anecdotal? Maybe you need more education?

Jenson71
05-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Bill Gates pretty much had an average college education when he graduated from an amazing college-prep school at started at Harvard.

It's not like this guy didn't know Algebra but still came up with Microsoft.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 12:36 PM
I didn't say education wasn't a factor either—that there was a difference between schooling and being educated. I was disagreeing it was the biggest factor and that conventional education paths were the only valid ones to get the same results.


I think we can reach some level of agreement here.

1. You are saying education is important.

2. I never said it was the biggest factor. I said it was a significant factor. I haven't done a statistical analysis to determine which is the most significant factor. I would say it is an essential factor. There maybe others.

3. I agree that there are other pathways to becoming educated and to developing a work force. No doubt. But businesses (even many low-tech industries such as hotel and retail operations) have found that hiring college educated people is the most efficient way to identify those that will help their business the most, at least past a certain responsibility level. If there were a better way, some business would have identified it and utilized it, out-competed everyone else, and now that method of finding the best qualified individuals would have become the norm. That is how markets work.

prhom
05-21-2011, 01:37 PM
I'm as pro-education as anyone, but I'm starting to think that we have a supply/demand problem that is coming to fruition. For decades society has been telling kids to get a degree get a degree get a degree, and the kids have been increasingly complying. More and more people are getting bachelor's and master's degrees (and probably Ph.D.'s, though that's a different issue).

To some extent, it's a good thing in that it presumably improves the education level of the population, which meets our needs as the country continues evolving toward a services economy instead of goods. But I think there are also three bad elements:

- First, I suspect that some of the students getting degrees may not be suited for a "thinking" career. But they do as they're told, and they get a degree and go into debt and lose several years of earnings doing it, and they are really aren't well-suited (okay, I'll say it, not smart enough) to hold a high-wage service industry job. So what now? Go back and start over? Now they've lost several years and are in debt and have been brainwashed against technician and skilled trade jobs, so they end up working in low-wage service jobs. Not a win.

- Second, the message for decades has been "get a degree". That's not the right message. The message should be "get an education". Students who may not be savvy about the difference then go to low-end schools (e.g., private-sector schools) and get the easiest degree they can get, but employers know the difference. A degree should be more than a piece of paper, and it increasingly is not. My wife's MBA from a top-20 school took 2.5 years of work, but I see resumes from people now who get an MBA from some storefront "college" in a year or less. That doesn't fly with the people making hiring decisions.

- Third, and related to the second point, all degrees are not equal. Students have been told "get a degree", but aren't amply trained to see the pros and cons of each degree other than their own initial interest. If you want a degree that earns good money and a job, get an engineering or math or accounting degree or something (though if you aren't interested in it, know that your job will not be fun). If you have an interest in literature or history or music or women's studies, go for it, but recognize that you're doing it for the love of the subject and to learn, and that it won't typically translate to a job afterwards. Getting a degree will probably always open doors that aren't otherwise open, but some degrees open more doors than others, and some schools open more doors than others.

I really like the primary educational system that I posted in a thread in DC, where there are no grades and no grade levels, and you only continue learning Level X when you have mastered Level X-1. I think you combine this with a tracking system where students are funneled into course tracks that match both their aptitudes and their interests. If a student simply isn't academically oriented, get him or her the base skills and let them leave school earlier for a lower wage, lower skill job, but where they can have more years of work. For other students, don't push them into college if they don't have the aptitude or interests to succeed in a job that requires a college education. While a college degree is great, and in a perfect world everyone would enjoy and pursue education, the real world isn't like that, and I don't think all students should be pushed towards college. Otherwise, the end result is a glut of students with lots of debt, little learning, and a $27,000 starting salary.

I agree with Rain Man's thoughts here. Totally a supply/demand problem that has been years in the making. Until very modern times, university educations were reserved for those who could either afford it (regardless of merit) or deserve it. Now it's more like a business with price floor built in by nearly limitless amounts of student loan funds. Nearly anyone can get into a college of some kind and pay for it with a student loan. It's great that education has become that accessible, but it creates the situation we see today. To your third point, people who are not properly equipped to evaluate the merits of a college education as "suckered" in to getting one that is tailor-made for them. It's come to the point where there is almost a college degree made for anyone, no matter how inane or pointless that study may be. The reality is that you don't need to spend $50k to learn how to appreciate fine art. This doesn't mean that the appreciation of fine art is pointless, just that it's not an appropriate thing for someone to go into debt to study.

The key here is the debt that allows this situation to happen. You can't get a loan for anything besides an education without first having to demonstrate your ability to repay it (or collateralize it). Why should education be any different? In fact this ties in perfectly to Rain Man's tiered system. Higher levels of educational attainment should be correlated with increased value to society (and by its proxy, salary) and should come with higher levels of available funding. It would force a re-evaluation of the true value of a job and how much we, as a society, should be willing to pay for someone to perform it.

I don't think any of this will ever happen, but it's fun to think about.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Every revolutionary technology idea needs a well trained worker base to make it worth any thing. A trained work base is a huge driver of the economy.
Well trained does not mean highly educated though. I mean they can be blue-collar workers like those in the auto industry.

I'll argue that most innovators have college educations. A few don't. It's not essential.
So where's your data for this part ?

Even what Jobs and Gates did would have been impossible without innovations made by PhD level people working at Intel and Motorola. The transistor was invented by a PhD at Bell labs. This is why your examples of Jobs and Gates are anectdotal.

I already mentioned this. It does not change the FACT that Gates had a major and revolutionary impact on the economy.

Are you really not familiar with this use of the term anecdotal? Maybe you need more education?
If you think I didn't from what I wrote then **** you.

From your own link and which I said:
"(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy."

I said the same thing. Maybe you need more reading skills? ( back atcha')

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Bill Gates pretty much had an average college education when he graduated from an amazing college-prep school at started at Harvard.

It's not like this guy didn't know Algebra but still came up with Microsoft.

Well this is my point. He was already very well endowed intellectually. However, he had developed a very competitive personality which had a LOT to do with what he did. If I recall correctly, his mother had a lot to do with in developing that competitive spirit. From what I understand it was very intense growing up.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 02:35 PM
From your own link and which I said:
"(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy."

I said the same thing. Maybe you need more reading skills? ( back atcha')

You actually thought that I disputed the veracity of whether Bill Gates was the founder of MicroSoft and had a major influence on the development of the information age or that he didn't finish college? :spock:

cdcox
05-21-2011, 02:58 PM
So where's your data for this part ?



You doubt this? Lets play a game where for every key technological innovator over the last 50 years that did not have a college education and I'll name one that was developed by someone or a group of people that did have a college degree.

You: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

Me: Min Kao (Garmin), Sir Godfrey Hounsfield (CAT scan), Larry Page and Sergey Brin (Google).

cd: 3
bep: 2

Your turn.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 03:00 PM
Well trained does not mean highly educated though. I mean they can be blue-collar workers like those in the auto industry.


How many blue color workers does Microsoft employ? Google?

Even most high-tech manufacturing is done by robots these days. You need an engineering degree to program them and keep them running.

Stewie
05-21-2011, 03:43 PM
The company I work for is hiring like crazy. We need engineers and technical grads. Majoring in a non-descript degree is a waste of money and foolish. Those parents would have been better off putting $100K+ in another investment. At least little Johnny or Mary wouldn't be living at home doing nothing.

notorious
05-21-2011, 03:43 PM
I'm as pro-education as anyone, but I'm starting to think that we have a supply/demand problem that is coming to fruition.


Simple as THIS.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 06:45 PM
How many blue color workers does Microsoft employ? Google?

Even most high-tech manufacturing is done by robots these days. You need an engineering degree to program them and keep them running.

I was merely pointing how some of what you claim doesn't apply to all industries. There are still blue-collar workers. And last I looked read, GM had one robot for every ten workers at this point. Per wikipedia only 16% of the robots are used in North America. Lastly, I pointed out earlier that certain professions a degree is usually necessary in...engineering being one.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 06:48 PM
You aren't seriously claiming that a pension and TIAA-CREFF are the same thing, are you?
I asked a question, and it wasn't intended as rhetorical? Also, note the word seems.
Isn't that what your TIAA-CREFF does? They may be different vehicles BUT seems the purpose is the same.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 06:49 PM
You actually thought that I disputed the veracity of whether Bill Gates was the founder of MicroSoft and had a major influence on the development of the information age or that he didn't finish college? :spock:

No

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 06:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, it is very enjoyable, and I still fly for a few people once a week/two weeks.


But, the payout in the end is questionable IMO. Never home, but make decent money. Some of my friends thrive in those conditions, but it wasn't for me.

I thought pilots only few 20 hours a month. No?

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 06:58 PM
You doubt this? Lets play a game where for every key technological innovator over the last 50 years that did not have a college education and I'll name one that was developed by someone or a group of people that did have a college degree.

You: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

Me: Min Kao (Garmin), Sir Godfrey Hounsfield (CAT scan), Larry Page and Sergey Brin (Google).



My point was that it CAN be done. Let's got back to Square One: My disagreement was with "I have a tad bit of a problem on education being claimed as one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. I mean Gates, as well as jobs, was a drop out and their contributions revolutionized the economy. They were smart guys with an idea."

Remember, as I clarified again even after this post was your claim it was the strongest driver. I already elaborated as to what I thought were bigger contributers. The main one being "ideas." I've said it many times before here, ideas progress man—probably more than anything else.


cd: 3
bep: 2

Irrelevant.

cdcox
05-21-2011, 07:30 PM
My point was that it CAN be done. Let's got back to Square One: My disagreement was with "I have a tad bit of a problem on education being claimed as one of the strongest economic drivers of a country. I mean Gates, as well as jobs, was a drop out and their contributions revolutionized the economy. They were smart guys with an idea."

Remember, as I clarified again even after this post was your claim it was the strongest driver. I already elaborated as to what I thought were bigger contributers. The main one being "ideas." I've said it many times before here, ideas progress man—probably more than anything else.


I said one of of the strongest drivers and you changed it to the strongest driver.

But the majority of best ideas in a modern technology-driven economy are coming from the college educated. If you doubt that we can go back to the counting game. Ball is in your court.

CrazyPhuD
05-21-2011, 08:53 PM
Bill Gates pretty much had an average college education when he graduated from an amazing college-prep school at started at Harvard.

It's not like this guy didn't know Algebra but still came up with Microsoft.

LMAO

Sorry I have to laugh at lauding that is being done at both gates and jobs regarding creating apple and microsoft. DOn't get be wrong both are very smart....BUT most of the ideas behind both the apple/mac products and windows/dos products in the early days were all 'borrowed' from Xerox Parc. Neither of those guys 'invented' much at all, but both are exceptional at productizing someone else's invention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

cdcox
05-21-2011, 09:03 PM
LMAO

Sorry I have to laugh at lauding that is being done at both gates and jobs regarding creating apple and microsoft. DOn't get be wrong both are very smart....BUT most of the ideas behind both the apple/mac products and windows/dos products in the early days were all 'borrowed' from Xerox Parc. Neither of those guys 'invented' much at all, but both are exceptional at productizing someone else's invention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

From wiki:

"Founded in 1970 as a division of Xerox Corporation, PARC has been responsible for such well known and important developments as laser printing, Ethernet, the modern personal computer, graphical user interface (GUI), object-oriented programming, ubiquitous computing, amorphous silicon (a-Si) applications, and advancing very-large-scale-integration (VLSI) for semiconductors."

PARC hires people right out of high school right?

chiefzilla1501
05-21-2011, 09:07 PM
Some college grads are dumbasses too. Some people are book smart, street or common sense stupid or life stupid. What about all those people who grew up in the 1930's and 40's who were high school drop outs then which was no uncommon who started businesses and became millionaires?

And just look at the specious economic think some PhD's have. Too much time in an Ivory Tower can create other shortcomings.

A college education does not necessarily teach you "how" think or "how" learn. Not all classes or majors necessarily. How to learn should be taught much earlier anyway. That requires a set of tools lower schools should provide.

I personally like the general ed requirements a degree provides in addition to career training but nowadays I can't say it's always worth the investment. It's overpriced and somewhat of racket nowadays. Sorry, but the brick and mortar is going to be a dinosaur one of these days.

I think this is the Tom Brady effect. Some have walked out and become billionaires, but the vast majority of people who have become successful have a college degree.

I was talking with my friend earlier today about owning a business. You don't have to have a degree to have the guts to do it, but there's a lot you can learn in the discipline. Restaurants are a classic example. I think of how many restaurants probably fail because they have no operational discipline. Or how many fail because the service sucks because nobody bothered to pay attention to soft skills like managing workers. Or marketing--the simple idea that buying targeted media to serve targeted customers is more effective than buying to a mass audience. I work in Corporate America with a bunch of non-MBAs. I can tell you that some MBAs don't walk out with any working knowledge. But those who are taught well learn to do business in a totally different way. I don't at all regret getting an MBA. I immediately see the difference.

CrazyPhuD
05-22-2011, 03:23 PM
Heh you should feel dumber for reading this but it's actually important that you do so.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/17/education.stem.graduation/index.html

Heh science and engineering is all about failure, if you're trying something different you should expect to fail 90+% of you attempts, if you quit that easy you're probably not going to be that useful.

Here's a better idea, instead of trying to increase the bottom 1/3rd's graduation rate, lets get the science/engineering majors working for the financial companies back into real science/engineering work. Those top students working on novel new ideas would have FAR more impact in invention than getting the bottom 1/3rd of students to graduate.

cdcox
05-22-2011, 03:49 PM
Heh you should feel dumber for reading this but it's actually important that you do so.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/17/education.stem.graduation/index.html

Heh science and engineering is all about failure, if you're trying something different you should expect to fail 90+% of you attempts, if you quit that easy you're probably not going to be that useful.

Here's a better idea, instead of trying to increase the bottom 1/3rd's graduation rate, lets get the science/engineering majors working for the financial companies back into real science/engineering work. Those top students working on novel new ideas would have FAR more impact in invention than getting the bottom 1/3rd of students to graduate.

In our college, everyone we admit has the ability, but not all have the motivation. The freshman engineering program is set up to help students succeed (it is not designed to be a weed out program since our admission criteria are quite high), but some students just don't have the motivation to graduate from an engineering program. For 99% of students, they are going to have to work hard to make it through.

Financial companies will pay the top graduates more than the technology companies will. Sad but true. Not sure anything can be done about that.

vailpass
05-23-2011, 12:28 PM
Not the first time new grads have struggled to find jobs in a down economy, won't be the last.

BucEyedPea
05-23-2011, 02:41 PM
Not the first time new grads have struggled to find jobs in a down economy, won't be the last.

Student loan defaults are soaring right now.

vailpass
05-23-2011, 02:46 PM
Student loan defaults are soaring right now.

I don't doubt it. I'm gussing there are more people with student loan debt right now that there has ever been in this country.
Instead of spending billions on wall street bail outs obama could have forgiven some/all student loan debt as a grass-roots stimulus.