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View Full Version : Int'l Issues Obama's Foreign Screwups. This may be his best


HonestChieffan
05-20-2011, 08:42 AM
So many people covering this cluster created by the moron in chief. How this ends may be a while coming but my bet is its not good for the US and a disaster for Isreal. No ally can any longer count on anything with the POS in office.

Take your pick:


Report: Behind the Scenes Obama Snubbed Netanyahu…http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4071461,00.html

NYT: Netanyahu Was “Furious” on Phone Call With Hillary Clinton Hours Before Obama’s Speech…http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20policy.html?_r=1&hp

Israeli Official: Obama Doesn’t “Understand Reality”…http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43106082/ns/politics-white_house/

U.S. Jewish Leader: “The President of the United States Is Asking for Ethnic Cleansing”…http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/rabbis-respond-obama-speech-ethnic-clean

Israel's Netanyahu primed for a 'collision' with Obama today...http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0520/Israel-s-Netanyahu-primed-for-a-collision-with-Obama-today

orange
05-20-2011, 08:52 AM
Does this mean Israel will stop taking our money? :rockon:

alnorth
05-20-2011, 08:56 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Netanyahu wants the Palestinians to concede to virtually every demand while giving up almost nothing in return? OK, thats what his coalition was narrowly elected to say, but why do we have to delude ourselves into thinking that has a chance in hell of ever happening?

Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.

mlyonsd
05-20-2011, 08:57 AM
Does this mean Israel will stop taking our money? :rockon:

I don't think that's genetically built into the DNA of their culture.

mlyonsd
05-20-2011, 09:05 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Netanyahu wants the Palestinians to concede to virtually every demand while giving up almost nothing in return? OK, thats what his coalition was narrowly elected to say, but why do we have to delude ourselves into thinking that has a chance in hell of ever happening?

Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.

If Hamas doesn't formally recognize Israel in the next couple of months our position must be reversed.

I'll give Obama credit for trying to put the ball back into play but I think now it's up to Hamas/Palestine to make the next move since Israel currently holds the ground.

Fritz88
05-20-2011, 09:07 AM
I understand why Arabs care about Palestine due to common language, roots and perhaps religion. But what puzzles me is a person who lives 5000 miles away and is defending them like their lives depended on it.

Is it something religious?

If you are Jewish then I can understand why.

But if you are Christian then this is what I don't get. Does the bible say support them? How does that work? Two different belief systems that conflict in many ways. Does not compute.

I understand why the US foreign policy supports Israel because Jewish people got the U.S. economy by the balls.

If you are trying to be humanitarian and loving to all 'oppressed' people, then I would love to see you spending the same effort supporting other humanitarian causes.

BTW, this question is not directed to the OP. It's just a question that has been lingering in my mind for a while. Anyone can feel free to answer it :)

Chiefshrink
05-20-2011, 09:12 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Netanyahu wants the Palestinians to concede to virtually every demand while giving up almost nothing in return? OK, thats what his coalition was narrowly elected to say, but why do we have to delude ourselves into thinking that has a chance in hell of ever happening?

Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.

So Israel is the bully? Pleeeeeeeeease!

patteeu
05-20-2011, 09:18 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Netanyahu wants the Palestinians to concede to virtually every demand while giving up almost nothing in return? OK, thats what his coalition was narrowly elected to say, but why do we have to delude ourselves into thinking that has a chance in hell of ever happening?

Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.

So it's your position that Obama is an incompetent communicator rather than a pro-palestinian advocate? Because his statement sure hasn't been received as a mere restatement of long-held policy.

It seems to me that while he used enough weasel words (e.g. "swaps") and vagueness to allow generous people like you to see consistency with previous policy, the general tenor of the message represented an unmistakeable shift toward the palestinians. IMO, he seems to be calling on Israel to make all the concessions in return for little more than lip service from the palestinians. Furthermore, he suggests putting off negotiations on two of the key issues (Jerusalem and Right of Return) until after boundaries have been negotiated which works against Israel's strong interest in those areas.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 09:27 AM
So many people covering this cluster created by the moron in chief. How this ends may be a while coming but my bet is its not good for the US and a disaster for Isreal. No ally can any longer count on anything with the POS in office.

Take your pick:


Report: Behind the Scenes Obama Snubbed Netanyahu…http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4071461,00.html

NYT: Netanyahu Was “Furious” on Phone Call With Hillary Clinton Hours Before Obama’s Speech…http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20policy.html?_r=1&hp

Israeli Official: Obama Doesn’t “Understand Reality”…http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43106082/ns/politics-white_house/

U.S. Jewish Leader: “The President of the United States Is Asking for Ethnic Cleansing”…http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/rabbis-respond-obama-speech-ethnic-clean

Israel's Netanyahu primed for a 'collision' with Obama today...http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0520/Israel-s-Netanyahu-primed-for-a-collision-with-Obama-today

Good for Obama. Netanyahu is an asshole.

Let's be brutally accurate for a moment, Israel as an ally NEEDS us, we don't NEED them. We don't support them out of any NEED.

We would be just fine without the relationship ( a rigidly socialist country), since it has contributed to us being at war for ten years due to terrorism brought to our shores. You think that's beneficial? I don't. Now don't jump to conclusions and say I want it wiped out but quit being delusional that we actually NEED them when it's the other way around. In fact, if they didn't rely on us there just may have been a peace settlement long ago.

Fritz88
05-20-2011, 09:28 AM
So it's your position that Obama is an incompetent communicator rather than a pro-palestinian advocate? Because his statement sure hasn't been received as a mere restatement of long-held policy.

It seems to me that while he used enough weasel words (e.g. "swaps") and vagueness to allow generous people like you to see consistency with previous policy, the general tenor of the message represented an unmistakeable shift toward the palestinians. IMO, he seems to be calling on Israel to make all the concessions in return for little more than lip service from the palestinians. Furthermore, he suggests putting off negotiations on two of the key issues (Jerusalem and Right of Return) until after boundaries have been negotiated which works against Israel's strong interest in those areas.

You know what's funny, Pat?

The general consensus from the Arabs ranging from streets, to intellects to messages boards to news papers is that Obama was pro Israeli in his latest speech.

I am not a big Obama fan, but he's getting it from both sides.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 09:30 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Netanyahu wants the Palestinians to concede to virtually every demand while giving up almost nothing in return? OK, thats what his coalition was narrowly elected to say, but why do we have to delude ourselves into thinking that has a chance in hell of ever happening?

Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.

Oh, oh, you've gone and done it now! I can see this thread becoming a Flying Monkey one once you veer from the Party Line.

FD
05-20-2011, 09:32 AM
Notorious Israel Hater Jeffrey Goldberg:


I'm amazed at the amount of insta-commentary out there suggesting that the President has proposed something radical and new by declaring that Israel's 1967 borders should define -- with land-swaps -- the borders of a Palestinian state. I'm feeling a certain Groundhog Day effect here. This has been the basic idea for at least 12 years. This is what Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat were talking about at Camp David, and later, at Taba. This is what George W. Bush was talking about with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert. So what's the huge deal here? Is there any non-delusional Israeli who doesn't think that the 1967 border won't serve as the rough outline of the new Palestinian state?

A bigger deal: President Obama's call for a phased withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank following an agreement. Prime Minister Netanyahu wants to keep a residual force in the Jordan Valley (as does the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which won't admit this publicly). The key here is the word "phased," which could mean anything. Israel could keep troops in the valley for 10 years after an agreement.

A much bigger deal: Obama's forthright denunciation of the unilateral Palestinian plan to seek the General Assembly's endorsement this September of statehood. Also a big deal: The President's statement that the Hamas-Fatah pact "raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel -- how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist? In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question." This doesn't sound like a radical departure from long-term American policy. Or even a mild departure.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/

patteeu
05-20-2011, 09:36 AM
You know what's funny, Pat?

The general consensus from the Arabs ranging from streets, to intellects to messages boards to news papers is that Obama was pro Israeli in his latest speech.

I am not a big Obama fan, but he's getting it from both sides.

Here's what a spokesman for Mahmoud Abbas had to say.
It's quite a bit different than Benjamin Netanyahu's reaction.

President Abbas stresses his appreciation to the continuing efforts being exerted by President Obama with the objective of resuming the permanent status talks in the hope of reaching a final status agreement on all core issues.

Jaric
05-20-2011, 09:37 AM
Maybe we should just stay the fuck out of it and let Isreal and Palastine solve their own fucking problems.

Hydrae
05-20-2011, 10:09 AM
I don't think that's genetically built into the DNA of our government.

FYP

Brock
05-20-2011, 10:19 AM
Why do you people think Israel is any particular friend of yours?

talastan
05-20-2011, 10:20 AM
Maybe we should just stay the **** out of it and let Isreal and Palastine solve their own ****ing problems.

THIS!!!

Fritz88
05-20-2011, 10:21 AM
Why do you people think Israel is any particular friend of yours?

Good question. That is why I posed this question

I understand why Arabs care about Palestine due to common language, roots and perhaps religion. But what puzzles me is a person who lives 5000 miles away and is defending them like their lives depended on it.

Is it something religious?

If you are Jewish then I can understand why.

But if you are Christian then this is what I don't get. Does the bible say support them? How does that work? Two different belief systems that conflict in many ways. Does not compute.

I understand why the US foreign policy supports Israel because Jewish people got the U.S. economy by the balls.

If you are trying to be humanitarian and loving to all 'oppressed' people, then I would love to see you spending the same effort supporting other humanitarian causes.

BTW, this question is not directed to the OP. It's just a question that has been lingering in my mind for a while. Anyone can feel free to answer it :)

Tom_A_Hawk
05-20-2011, 10:23 AM
You know what's funny, Pat?

The general consensus from the Arabs ranging from streets, to intellects to messages boards to news papers is that Obama was pro Israeli in his latest speech.

I am not a big Obama fan, but he's getting it from both sides.

that's what you get when you weasel word something to a point that it is open to interpretation

patteeu
05-20-2011, 10:48 AM
that's what you get when you weasel word something to a point that it is open to interpretation

Right. Although I think the more sophisticated and informed people on both sides know that Obama's heart lies with the palestinians. It's made obvious by the choices he made when he picked his advisers, if not by his own pre-POTUS actions.

LOCOChief
05-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Why should we care when Israel's PM throws a crying hissy-fit when we spell out the reality of the situation? If Israel doesn't want peace, that is their choice.


Who spelled out the reality?

Whose demands?

And by the way, I'd really like to see where Bush suggested going back to the 67 boarders because that's exactly what you've said several times now.

Brock
05-20-2011, 11:37 AM
Who spelled out the reality?

Whose demands?

The country whose tit they've been sucking on for 50 years?

Garcia Bronco
05-20-2011, 11:46 AM
Fitz,

Jesus was jewish.

Further, Arabs don't really care about the Pals. Especially Jordon. The just disagree with the hebrews.

Ugly Duck
05-20-2011, 11:54 AM
This has essentially been our position for many years under the last several presidents.

Same as it ever was. Its long been the world's consensus position, including the United States. 'Cept for our RWNJ Christian right, Israel & Germany, its the longstanding status quo. But we don't take kindly to facts around here - we're trying to whip up some hysteria!

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Fitz,

Jesus was jewish.

Further, Arabs don't really care about the Pals. Especially Jordon. The just disagree with the hebrews.

That's not what I've read. That may be the govt but not necessarily its people. Jordan has many Palestinians in their population who don't rest easy over Israel. Pat Buchanan just had a recent editorial saying that the govt of Jordan is not resting easy due to their population make-up. Even King Abdullah's wife is of Palestinian descent on both sides of her family.


EDIT: I just checked

two-thirds of King Hussein's 1,600,000 subjects are Palestinian refugees who hold no love for the desert-born Hashemite dynasty.

This is old but the demographics as still similar.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,826992,00.html#ixzz1Muf397y2

ChiefsCountry
05-20-2011, 12:04 PM
But if you are Christian then this is what I don't get. Does the bible say support them? How does that work? Two different belief systems that conflict in many ways. Does not compute.


Actually the Bible does say to support Israel.

BucEyedPea
05-20-2011, 12:14 PM
Actually the Bible does say to support Israel.

Douay-Rheims or the one Dispensationalists use? Where in the Bible is this stipulated and how does it work with rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's?

LiveSteam
05-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Netanyahu just said.
FUCK YOU OBAMA & YOUR 1967 lines. Cant do it, wont do it.

FD
05-20-2011, 01:21 PM
Netanyahu just said.
**** YOU OBAMA & YOUR 1967 lines. Cant do it, wont do it.

He said the same thing to Bush's "Roadmap" in 2004, too, which offered the same plan to the one outlined by Obama yesterday. Netanyahu is a hardliner. This is nothing new.

LiveSteam
05-20-2011, 01:26 PM
He said the same thing to Bush's "Roadmap" in 2004, too, which offered the same plan to the one outlined by Obama yesterday. Netanyahu is a hardliner. This is nothing new.

Obama cant protect "OUR" borders! But let Obama tell you what YOU should do with yours... God dam loser

patteeu
05-20-2011, 01:47 PM
The real problem with Obama's "proposal" is that he calls on Israel and the palestinians to negotiate the territorial issues (minus Jerusalem) first, leaving the "Right of Return" issue for later. Well, if the territorial issues are already settled, what does Israel have left to give up in order to get the palestinians to give up RoR? Because RoR is never going to happen. And what are the palestinians giving up in return for the land that Israel would be giving them in the first part of the negotiations anyway? Lip service about Israel's right to exist? It's an unworkable plan that would give the negotiating advantage to the palestinians if the Israelis were ever dumb enough to adopt it.

Fritz88
05-20-2011, 01:54 PM
Actually the Bible does say to support Israel.
How does that work?

Jesus says support the Jews who killed him?
Both Jews and Christians are going to heaven then? Does a Jewish person believe that as well? Or is it just Christians?

Very confusing.
Posted via Mobile Device

vailpass
05-20-2011, 01:57 PM
He said the same thing to Bush's "Roadmap" in 2004, too, which offered the same plan to the one outlined by Obama yesterday. Netanyahu is a hardliner. This is nothing new.

For a guy who panders to an 'everything anti-Bush" base obama sure has continued/imitated a lot of key Bush policies/ideas.
Maybe it's like the concept of your parents seeming a whole lot smarter once you grow up.

orange
05-20-2011, 02:01 PM
The real problem with Obama's "proposal" is that he calls on Israel and the palestinians to negotiate the territorial issues (minus Jerusalem) first, leaving the "Right of Return" issue for later. Well, if the territorial issues are already settled, what does Israel have left to give up in order to get the palestinians to give up RoR?

Er, the last time I looked, Israel controlled the border. No one's going to "Return" whatever "Right" they may claim - unless Israel agrees, of course.

I may stand for the Right of Free Beer but it doesn't get me anywhere at the liquor store.

So if that's the real problem with Obama's proposal, then there is no problem.

LiveSteam
05-20-2011, 02:08 PM
How does that work?

Jesus says support the Jews who killed him?
Both Jews and Christians are going to heaven then? Does a Jewish person believe that as well? Or is it just Christians?

Very confusing.
Posted via Mobile Device

Jews are the chosen people. Not chosen by the son of God, but chosen by God himself. The fact that they could kill his only son,& still be forgiven. Is where the move from the Old testament to the New testament begins.
Jewish faith believes Jesus is still to come. I THINK???

ChiefsCountry
05-20-2011, 02:09 PM
How does that work?

Jesus says support the Jews who killed him?
Both Jews and Christians are going to heaven then? Does a Jewish person believe that as well? Or is it just Christians?

Very confusing.
Posted via Mobile Device

What is so confusing about it? Jews beliefs are off the Old Testment and Christians take that and add on the New Testment.

FD
05-20-2011, 02:20 PM
For a guy who panders to an 'everything anti-Bush" base obama sure has continued/imitated a lot of key Bush policies/ideas.
Maybe it's like the concept of your parents seeming a whole lot smarter once you grow up.

I think in this case, Obama isnt continuing Bush's policy so much as continuing the policy that the US has had for many presidents. I chose Bush's "Roadmap" because I specifically remember Netanyahu rejecting it, I don't recall if Netanyahu had a specific public reaction to Clinton's "parameters" for instance.

blaise
05-20-2011, 02:25 PM
For a guy who panders to an 'everything anti-Bush" base obama sure has continued/imitated a lot of key Bush policies/ideas.
Maybe it's like the concept of your parents seeming a whole lot smarter once you grow up.

Yeah, it seems like we've heard, "Bush did it, too! Where was the outrage back then?" a few times now.
Hope and change.

Fritz88
05-20-2011, 02:35 PM
Jews are the chosen people. Not chosen by the son of God, but chosen by God himself. The fact that they could kill his only son,& still be forgiven. Is where the move from the Old testament to the New testament begins.
Jewish faith believes Jesus is still to come. I THINK???

So if Jesus comes what is he going to do to them? Both Jews and Christians are okay?

What is so confusing about it? Jews beliefs are off the Old Testment and Christians take that and add on the New Testment.

What is the difference in terms of both beliefs? Do Jews believe that Jesus is God? If both holy books are valid, then why not just become a Jew or a Jew becomes a Christian?

vailpass
05-20-2011, 02:40 PM
I think in this case, Obama isnt continuing Bush's policy so much as continuing the policy that the US has had for many presidents. I chose Bush's "Roadmap" because I specifically remember Netanyahu rejecting it, I don't recall if Netanyahu had a specific public reaction to Clinton's "parameters" for instance.

Kind of like when obama was asked, now that he was President, if we were ging to get less of Bush's policy or more.
His reply: Git mo.

patteeu
05-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Er, the last time I looked, Israel controlled the border. No one's going to "Return" whatever "Right" they may claim - unless Israel agrees, of course.

I may stand for the Right of Free Beer but it doesn't get me anywhere at the liquor store.

So if that's the real problem with Obama's proposal, then there is no problem.

I agree that there's no real problem with Obama's proposal in terms of the negotiating realities between Israel and the palestinians because it's just talk. The only problem it could create would be if the US started backing up Obama's blather with some sort of reprisals when Israel shrugs it off.

Brock
05-20-2011, 04:38 PM
I agree that there's no real problem with Obama's proposal in terms of the negotiating realities between Israel and the palestinians because it's just talk. The only problem it could create would be if the US started backing up Obama's blather with some sort of reprisals when Israel shrugs it off.

Yeah, that's something to worry about.

BucEyedPea
05-21-2011, 12:35 PM
Israel shrugged off Reagan a few times too. In fact one of them worked behind his back which upset RR.