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JohnnyV13
06-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Rand Paul, that great protector of our civil liberties, now wants to criminalize attendence at certain political speeches:

"But if someone is attending speeches from someone who is supporting the violent overthrow of our government, that's an offense we should really be going after--they should be deported or put in prison."

-Sen. Rand Paul on the Sean Hannity show May, 2011.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/06/01/free_speech

Funny how you spend a little time in Washington, and getting called Mr. Senator seems to get into anyone's head.

But, hey, this has to be all made up, because "true libertarians" are "incorruptable".

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Rand isn't a libertarian. Apply some logic since that article is not about freedom if someone overthrows a govt that allows freedom. It just depends on the govt. Every govt that ever existed would go after anyone trying to overthrow them because it's considered a crime.


Swing and a miss.

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2011, 05:25 PM
Of course he's a libertarian. He's just not a Libertarian.

Chocolate Hog
06-02-2011, 05:33 PM
I thought he was a racist?

Jenson71
06-02-2011, 05:45 PM
Rand isn't a libertarian. Apply some logic since that article is not about freedom if someone overthrows a govt that allows freedom. It just depends on the govt. Every govt that ever existed would go after anyone trying to overthrow them because it's considered a crime.


Swing and a miss.

I thought our government was a totalitarian mercantilist socialist corporatist clusterfuck? I thought we were all slaves under the system and the tree of liberty needed to be soaked with the blood of patriots.

Maybe BEP is tossing aside her theatrical rhetoric, but I hope this doesn't mean Taco John no longer believes the government shackles his hands every morning when he wakes up.

SNR
06-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Rand Paul =/= Ron Paul

It really doesn't surprise me at all that he said something like this. It wouldn't surprise me if he says more stupid shit like this in the future

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 05:50 PM
He's not a doctrinaire libertarian. He's more conservative than that, including more than his own father.

I always thought it was a crime to conspire to overthrow the govt. Like getting up to 20 years. Maybe one of the lawyers can cite the law.

Now if a govt is committing crimes on it's people in violation of it's fundamental laws and has morphed into a tyranny, you take your chances of doing such a thing. If you get caught you're still gonna get it. That would have happened to those who fought in our war for Independence. So you better win and have enough of the people on your side.

Ebolapox
06-02-2011, 05:53 PM
I don't see a big problem with what he said.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 05:56 PM
Nevertheless, sedition remains a crime in the United States under 18 U.S.C.A. 2384 (2000), a federal statute that punishes seditious conspiracy, and 18 U.S.C.A. 2385 (2000), which outlaws advocating the overthrow of the federal government by force.

Generally, a person may be punished for sedition only when he or she makes statements that create a Clear and Present Danger to rights that the government may lawfully protect (schenck v. united states, 249 U.S. 47, 39 S. Ct. 247, 63 L. Ed. 470 [1919]).

The crime of seditious conspiracy is committed when two or more persons in any state or U.S. territory conspire to levy war against the U.S. government. A person commits the crime of advocating the violent overthrow of the federal government when she willfully advocates or teaches the overthrow of the government by force, publishes material that advocates the overthrow of the government by force, or organizes persons to overthrow the government by force.

A person found guilty of seditious conspiracy or advocating the overthrow of the government may be fined and sentenced to up to 20 years in prison. States also maintain laws that punish similar advocacy and conspiracy against the state government.

Governments have made sedition illegal since time immemorial. The precise acts that constitute sedition have varied.


Hmmm...malicious criticism of the govt should be okay. The Sedition Act of 1798 was an unwarranted curb on speech back then.


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sedition


While I'm at it, if it's a foreigner doing this—they should be deported.

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2011, 05:57 PM
One person speaking to an audience does not constitute conspiracy between the speaker and the audience.

Paul is suggesting that the audience could be committing a crime. Not the speaker.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 05:58 PM
On the surface but it may not necessarily be that innocent. So the FBI should infiltrate and find out who is going along with it. Or being taken in by it in order to do something.

Jenson71
06-02-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't see a big problem with what he said.

Three types of people:

1) The person actively pursuing or carrying out a violent overthrow of the US government.

2) The person who advocates that the US government should be overthrown

3) The person who, whether in agreement or disagreement, attends the speech of person 2.

Currently, it is considered within the bounds of the Constitution's Free Speech to be person 2, but not person 1. Rand Paul, perhaps mistakenly, said person 3 should be incarcerated.

Or, see ClevelandBronco's post.

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2011, 06:00 PM
On the surface but it may not necessarily be that innocent. So the FBI should infiltrate and find out who is going along with it. Or being taken in by it in order to do something.

If only he had said that instead of what he did say.

Jenson71
06-02-2011, 06:01 PM
On the surface but it may not necessarily be that innocent. So the FBI should infiltrate and find out.

I wasn't expecting you to endorse the rationale behind the Patriot Act today.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 06:05 PM
Well Mother Jones doesn't consider Rand a libertarian.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/how-libertarian-rand-paul

Nor does USA Today by Rand Paul:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-08-10-column10_ST2_N.htm


It's often repeated in stories about me or my race for U.S. Senate that I am a "libertarian." In my mind, the word "libertarian" has become an emotionally charged, and often misunderstood, word in our current political climate. But, I would argue very strongly that the vast coalition of Americans — including independents, moderates, Republicans, conservatives and "Tea Party" activists — share many libertarian points of view, as do I.

I choose to use a different phrase to describe my beliefs — I consider myself a constitutional conservative, which I take to mean a conservative who actually believes in smaller government and more individual freedom. The libertarian principles of limited government, self-reliance and respect for the Constitution are embedded within my constitutional conservatism, and in the views of countless Americans from across the political spectrum.

There simply is quite a bit of overlap with a Constitutional Conservative and a Libertarian, but they are not the same thing. An exception is those Libertarians who like to centralize power in DC against the states for more liberty. Those are libertarians like Randy Barnett and Pilon. They support the incorporation doctrine using the 14th Amendment to expand the Bill of Rights in violation of state rights.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 06:06 PM
If only he had said that instead of what he did say.

Yeah, well, sometimes people don't or can't communicate a whole editorial in a few sound bites.

ClevelandBronco
06-02-2011, 06:09 PM
Yeah, well, sometimes people don't or can't communicate a whole editorial in a few sound bites.

I don't think a lack of time to speak was his problem. Perhaps a lack of time to think might have been.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 06:17 PM
Apparently that's his pov on it despite what any court may think.


Lump sum total, Rand's positions still garner more liberty than any JohnnyV or jenson would advocate.

Chocolate Hog
06-02-2011, 06:18 PM
It amazes me how many people still fall for the left wing tricks.

BucEyedPea
06-02-2011, 06:23 PM
It amazes me how many people still fall for the left wing tricks.

Especially when Obama has worse offenses on the same thing. Like for criticizing him or having views on freedom and limited govt.

Now, if it were me, I would say the govt has a right to keep their eye on this type of thing for the time being.
I mean conspiracy implies doing this in secret, but what about openly planning it?

JohnnyV13
06-02-2011, 08:50 PM
Especially when Obama has worse offenses on the same thing. Like for criticizing him or having views on freedom and limited govt.

Now, if it were me, I would say the govt has a right to keep their eye on this type of thing for the time being.
I mean conspiracy implies doing this in secret, but what about openly planning it?

Cheap rhetoric trick #3: misdirection.

Well, that MAY be true, but see...the other side is EVEN WORSE.

But hey, I like the guy, so what he says isn't what he really means. Course, if someone I DIDN'T like said it, well I'd slice and dice it every which way til Sunday to show how they are a oligarchical statist just waiting to take more power.

None of that really matters tho, Rand Paul is BETTER than those other people. I'll just close my eyes and pretend he isn't acting like everyone else once they gain power. I'll still believe my guys are incorruptable....b/c well...if I didn't believe that how else could I believe that my philosophies make me morally superior?

ILChief
06-03-2011, 08:38 PM
It amazes me how many people still fall for the left wing tricks.\

yeah no one falls for right wing tricks

Chocolate Hog
06-04-2011, 01:15 AM
\

yeah no one falls for right wing tricks

Where did I say they didn't? Right wing ones are a little more creative atleast than " He's a racist"

bowener
06-04-2011, 01:27 AM
Where did I say they didn't? Right wing ones are a little more creative atleast than " He's a racist"

You mean the, "he's not a patriot," card is more creative? Or "he hates America," card.

Same damn thing. All are usually bullshit.