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whoman69
06-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Last week's sermon at my church got me to thinking. Christians really are on the defensive these days. The main reason is religious extremists giving Christianity a bad name.

Now I will admit there are people out there who lack faith who would only believe in God if he sent Jesus down to do talk show circuit. Those people are going to be very disappointed. Its not God's responsibility to prove he exists. Just because those people cannot see the miracles in everyday life they will suffer in the end. There is something to be said for faith.

The extremists are fueling the lack of faith in America. First off, there is nothing in science that disproves the bible. The fault lies in reading too literally into a work of symbolic images. By creating pseudo sciences you only show ignorance. There is no time stamp in the bible telling us when the apocalypse will come. The bible uses simplistic stories to tell of the creation of the world that some take way too far. Expecting a greater being to explain to people 6500 years ago how the world was created is like sitting down in front of the TV and explaining to the dog how the TV works. Explaining it to someone today would be equally as daunting. The big bang theory and evolution do not disprove God. They are merely explanations of how we came into being.

If you are preaching that God is hate, you are way off the mark. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal." (John 3:16) This has long been the basis behind Christianity. Jesus is love. Jesus was always hanging around those who were cast off from society. Jesus would be telling them there is a place for them in heaven, not God hates you. Fred Phelps has cast the first stone. Judge not, Fred, lest ye be judged.

Another source of extremism comes from factions within the Pro-Life movement. I will never understand how the hypocrites cannot understand that murdering to end murder is not a good solution. I don't see abortion as a good method of birth control, but their only answer is no birth control. They create lies in stating 95% of Planned Parenthood's budget is about abortion when its in reality about 3%. Stop hating and start creating solutions. Abstinence is not the answer for everyone. I would say its not a realistic answer for anyone. When abstinence fails then unwanted births and venereal diseases follow.

So let's go out there and show that most Christians are normal people and should not be defined by the extremists.

HonestChieffan
06-03-2011, 03:49 PM
PRINCETON, NJ — More than 9 in 10 Americans still say “yes” when asked the basic question “Do you believe in God?”; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.

Despite the many changes that have rippled through American society over the last 6 ½ decades, belief in God as measured in this direct way has remained high and relatively stable. Gallup initially used this question wording in November 1944, when 96% said “yes.” That percentage dropped to 94% in 1947, but increased to 98% in several Gallup surveys conducted in the 1950s and 1960s. Gallup stopped using this question format in the 1960s, before including it again in Gallup’s May 5-8 survey this year.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx

listopencil
06-03-2011, 03:53 PM
Honestly, no, I don't think there is any "attack on religion" in this country. Only a movement to get it out of government events, where it shouldn't have been to begin with.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 03:56 PM
Honestly, no, I don't think there is any "attack on religion" in this country. Only a movement to get it out of government events, where it shouldn't have been to begin with.

Way to take up the great cause of removing the horrible Christmas displays from city parks! Well done soldier.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 03:57 PM
PRINCETON, NJ — More than 9 in 10 Americans still say “yes” when asked the basic question “Do you believe in God?”; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.

Despite the many changes that have rippled through American society over the last 6 ½ decades, belief in God as measured in this direct way has remained high and relatively stable. Gallup initially used this question wording in November 1944, when 96% said “yes.” That percentage dropped to 94% in 1947, but increased to 98% in several Gallup surveys conducted in the 1950s and 1960s. Gallup stopped using this question format in the 1960s, before including it again in Gallup’s May 5-8 survey this year.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx

Duh, see my signature :)

listopencil
06-03-2011, 04:00 PM
Way to take up the great cause of removing the horrible Christmas displays from city parks! Well done soldier.

Way to make light of several decades of illegal persecution and harassment by the majority! Well done douchebag.

Jenson71
06-03-2011, 04:09 PM
I agree with the general sentiment of your post, whoman.

American Christians have many reasons to be proud of their legacy. It has been a huge part of the American culture and has elevated a lot of good into life. Christians should never feel that their faith is something that shouldn't be expressed in public.

And the reality is that Christianity remains the overwhelming worldview in this country, fortunately.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 04:53 PM
Way to make light of several decades of illegal persecution and harassment by the majority! Well done douchebag.

Exactly. Now if we can only get those Red Cross folks to leave us alone!

listopencil
06-03-2011, 04:59 PM
Exactly. Now if we can only get those Red Cross folks to leave us alone!


Hell yeah. Fuck those bastards.

Count Zarth
06-03-2011, 04:59 PM
Just because those people cannot see the miracles in everyday life they will suffer in the end.


If you are preaching that God is hate, you are way off the mark. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal." (John 3:16) This has long been the basis behind Christianity. Jesus is love.

I love you...so SUFFER IN THE END OR ELSE.

Great job of contradicting yourself, idiot xtian.

orange
06-03-2011, 05:03 PM
I love you...so SUFFER IN THE END OR ELSE.

Great job of contradicting yourself, idiot xtian.

I think he's talking about "opportunity cost," as in "your life will be emptier" - not burning in Hell. This thread is actually a reasonable post, but I agree with listopencil that the whole "attack on religion" is overblown.

alnorth
06-03-2011, 05:05 PM
America is perhaps the one place on earth where religion is the least "under attack". Lets pretend that one year from now, Obama is beating up on Romney or whoever like a drum by 15%+, and then abruptly from out of the blue he changes his mind about religion and comes out as an atheist. Not that it was discovered, but he simply thought about it and decided in September that he no longer believed in God.

Obama would get annihilated in the ensuing election. In a country where that is true, you can not say christianity is under attack with a straight face.

As for atheists, their slow rise is more due to the increase in available knowledge and information via the internet more than any evil influences on our culture or kids. Regarding the failure to prove that the bible is wrong and/or the failure to prove that God doesn't exist, (copy/paste standard flying spaghetti monster response here).

Count Zarth
06-03-2011, 05:08 PM
I think he's talking about "opportunity cost," as in "your life will be emptier" - not burning in Hell.

So, if I'm not going to hell, there's no reason to believe in god, and certainly none to worship him.

So, what's the fucking point?

PASS

orange
06-03-2011, 05:10 PM
So, what's the ****ing point?

Heaven. They have cookies.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/7/128809322979955865.jpg

listopencil
06-03-2011, 05:10 PM
So, if I'm not going to hell, there's no reason to believe in god, and certainly none to worship him.

So, what's the ****ing point?

PASS

I don't know. You either believe in God or don't I suppose, or you believe that it's something beyond knowing like I do. I don't get worship or prayer though.

orange
06-03-2011, 05:17 PM
I don't know. You either believe in God or don't I suppose, or you believe that it's something beyond knowing like I do. I don't get worship or prayer though.

Sometimes you just see a sign, a flash out of the blue, and you have to share it.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aUigB1-VJYw/TL20SUntSvI/AAAAAAAAAGY/0LshiNnpFOc/s1600/i-can-has-72-virgins.jpg

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 05:19 PM
So, if I'm not going to hell, there's no reason to believe in god, and certainly none to worship him.

So, what's the ****ing point?

PASS

The point being to make the world a much better place by using Jesus's example to follow. To bring Heaven to Earth is the calling of all Christians. Unless you think the world is a pretty great place as is.

listopencil
06-03-2011, 05:21 PM
Sometimes you just see a sign, a flash out of the blue, and you have to share it.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aUigB1-VJYw/TL20SUntSvI/AAAAAAAAAGY/0LshiNnpFOc/s1600/i-can-has-72-virgins.jpg



That's it. I'm converting.

listopencil
06-03-2011, 05:27 PM
The point being to make the world a much better place by using Jesus's example to follow. To bring Heaven to Earth is the calling of all Christians. Unless you think the world is a pretty great place as is.

Are you sure? I thought the idea was to reject worldly things and focus on the afterlife, that it's impossible to bring Heaven to Earth as they are incompatible.

PunkinDrublic
06-03-2011, 05:29 PM
What a crock of shit. Get back to me when there's an atheist belt. ****ing hilarious whenever Christians act like they're some sort of persecuted minority.

Brock
06-03-2011, 05:44 PM
Attack? LOL. But no, you're right, all these church burnings are playing hell with my allergies.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 05:46 PM
Are you sure? I thought the idea was to reject worldly things and focus on the afterlife, that it's impossible to bring Heaven to Earth as they are incompatible.

You would be incorrect sir.

listopencil
06-03-2011, 05:49 PM
You would be incorrect sir.


I don't know, I bet I could grab a bunch of Bible quotes that support my idea. But then you would grab a bunch of Bible quotes that contradict them and where would we be?

Count Zarth
06-03-2011, 07:24 PM
The point being to make the world a much better place by using Jesus's example to follow. To bring Heaven to Earth is the calling of all Christians. Unless you think the world is a pretty great place as is.

Don't need to have faith or worship for that.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 08:20 PM
The point being to make the world a much better place by using Jesus's example to follow. To bring Heaven to Earth is the calling of all Christians. Unless you think the world is a pretty great place as is.

The 1st point is absolutely accurate but the second Sounds like exactly what Satan is trying to do, get back to the garden. Sorry that ship has sailed, our place is not to bring heaven to earth. Hang on to what you have and pray you are counted worthy. If you follow Jesus' example you will be hated, but we should obey GOD rather than men.

alnorth
06-03-2011, 09:24 PM
I don't know, I bet I could grab a bunch of Bible quotes that support my idea. But then you would grab a bunch of Bible quotes that contradict them and where would we be?

you'd be bickering over a nutty fantasy story book written by men almost a couple thousand years ago in an attempt to gain worshippers, money, and power.

Somewhere along the way the guys who knew it was all bullcrap died out and the leadership of the recently-invented religion of christianity was taken over by the true believers. Fortunately, Christianity seems to have morphed into a mostly harmless benevolent organization that generally does more good than harm.

Scoff at the Scientologists now if you want, but Hubbard was following the blueprint.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 09:24 PM
The 1st point is absolutely accurate but the second Sounds like exactly what Satan is trying to do, get back to the garden. Sorry that ship has sailed, our place is not to bring heaven to earth. Hang on to what you have and pray you are counted worthy. If you follow Jesus' example you will be hated, but we should obey GOD rather than men.

Actually when Jesus gave us "The Lord's Prayer" that's exactly what is praying for.

"Thy kingdom come, they will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

Back to the garden is exactly where we want to be as Jesus is the new Gardner. It's not by coincidence how in the Gospels he is mistaken by Mary as "The Gardener" after his resurrection.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:25 PM
you'd be bickering over a nutty fantasy story book written by men almost a couple thousand years ago in an attempt to gain worshippers, money, and power.

Somewhere along the way the guys who knew it was all bullcrap died out and the leadership of the recently-invented religion of christianity was taken over by the true believers.

Scoff at the Scientologists now if you want, but Hubbard was following the blueprint.

Ya it's really too bad he didn't have a spiritual backer.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 09:26 PM
Don't need to have faith or worship for that.

It's more then just being a "good dude". I don't think you understand exactly the extremes that are asked. I've posted it beore buts it's great example and they are also members of my church.

http://www.newspressnow.com/localnews/26631989/detail.html

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:30 PM
Actually when Jesus gave us "The Lord's Prayer" that's exactly what is praying for.

"Thy kingdom come, they will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

He has also seen the end from the beginning and the tribulation isn't exactly painted as heaven.

BigCatDaddy
06-03-2011, 09:35 PM
He has also seen the end from the beginning and the tribulation isn't exactly painted as heaven.

But yet we are called to go into the world and make disciples of them all. We can make the world as close to Heaven as we possibly can until they day comes of his return. If that's 300 years from now why would we stop trying to be the light of the planet until the day he does come?

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:37 PM
But yet we are called to go into the world and make disciples of them all. We can make the world as close to Heaven as we possibly can until they day comes of his return. If that's 300 years from now why would we stop trying to be the light of the planet until the day he does come?

No we shouldn't stop trying, but at a certain point you can believe they will not hear thee. Shake the dust off your feet and move on and DO NOT bid them GodSpeed.

whoman69
06-03-2011, 09:41 PM
I don't know, I bet I could grab a bunch of Bible quotes that support my idea. But then you would grab a bunch of Bible quotes that contradict them and where would we be?

Exactly my point. Quotes are nothing without the context behind them. Bible quotes have been used to espouse all sorts of hatred.

I'm not claiming that Christians are being persecuted, that's the tactic of the extremists. I am arguing that they are creating an America where people are becoming increasingly silent about their belief in God. It may be in a private poll they can say this without fear, but in practice church membership is down across the country.

http://www.wfn.org/2010/02/msg00100.html

bowener
06-03-2011, 09:45 PM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?

Whereas if I am christian, a great one at that, and do good things as a means to an end, i.e. THE prize of Heaven, I get into heaven?

alnorth
06-03-2011, 09:46 PM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?

Whereas if I am christian, a great one at that, and do good things as a means to an end, i.e. THE prize of Heaven, I get into heaven?

This God fellow is an awfully vain and insecure prick. If he's not being adored, he's pissed.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:47 PM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?

Whereas if I am christian, a great one at that, and do good things as a means to an end, i.e. THE prize of Heaven, I get into heaven?

What is Good? There are none good.

L.A. Chieffan
06-03-2011, 09:48 PM
my god sAys if you do not follow him you will most certainly pay. but i love u too.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:49 PM
This God fellow is an awfully vain and insecure prick. If he's not being adored, he's pissed.

He's a just God, and spitting and cursing him has the same effect as ignoring him. Is this your curse God and die moment?

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:50 PM
my god sAys if you do not follow him you will most certainly pay. but i love u too.

All of us will pay, some are in debt for eternity and yet others are forgiven.

L.A. Chieffan
06-03-2011, 09:53 PM
All of us will pay, some are in debt for eternity and yet others are forgiven.

my god says i wont pay

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 09:54 PM
my god says i wont pay

I can smell the sulfur from here....You can eat the apple..you won't really die! :p

alnorth
06-03-2011, 09:56 PM
He's a just God, and spitting and cursing him has the same effect as ignoring him. Is this your curse God and die moment?

nah, I'm just occasionally amused that, just going by the bible and not any outside hateful slandar, this "God" is apparently an evil insecure bastard who punishes insufficient devotion.

It does make sense though in a way, if you are going to invent a "God" for your money-making religion to support you with a decent life, you need him to be a powerful evil bastard who savagely punishes disobediance and people who ask too many nosey questions.

whoman69
06-03-2011, 09:56 PM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?

Whereas if I am christian, a great one at that, and do good things as a means to an end, i.e. THE prize of Heaven, I get into heaven?

The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

KCrockaholic
06-03-2011, 09:57 PM
My god says if you don't join his culture you will rot in hell. But he loves everyone either way. I love fiction stories.

Nice post count btw :)

alnorth
06-03-2011, 10:00 PM
The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

God: "Your actions mean nothing, atheist! Worship me, damn it! Like me, show me love and devotion! If you don't, then even if you rescued orphans your whole life, I'll banish you into a pit filled with screaming and torture and flames and crying forever and ever! Why? Because you didn't acknowledge my awesomeness, for I am thy God!" :harumph:

bowener
06-03-2011, 10:01 PM
The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

But I am following an identical path of Jesus. I just don't believe in a god. How is a good act not as good without believing in Jesus? I am not trying to be an asshole here, I am genuinely interested in your answer. If I teach a man to fish, but do not believe in Jesus, how is it worse than teaching a man to fish, but believing in Jesus while I instruct this ignorant being?

whoman69
06-03-2011, 10:01 PM
nah, I'm just occasionally amused that, just going by the bible and not any outside hateful slandar, this "God" is apparently an evil insecure bastard who punishes insufficient devotion.

It does make sense though in a way, if you are going to invent a "God" for your money-making religion to support you with a decent life, you need him to be a powerful evil bastard who savagely punishes disobediance and people who ask too many nosey questions.

Not that at all. God is love. He has given you a test which is life and given you a spirit or soul which is actually a part of him. Its up to the individual on how to lead their life, but in the end one has to live with the consequences.

L.A. Chieffan
06-03-2011, 10:02 PM
i have no idea what sulfer or apples have to do with anything

whoman69
06-03-2011, 10:03 PM
But I am following an identical path of Jesus. I just don't believe in a god. How is a good act not as good without believing in Jesus? I am not trying to be an asshole here, I am genuinely interested in your answer. If I teach a man to fish, but do not believe in Jesus, how is it worse than teaching a man to fish, but believing in Jesus while I instruct this ignorant being?

Because in the end you would have missed the whole point.

alnorth
06-03-2011, 10:04 PM
Not that at all. God is love. He has given you a test which is life and given you a spirit or soul which is actually a part of him. Its up to the individual on how to lead their life, but in the end one has to live with the consequences.

right. and after I fail that bizarre arbitrary test, and I'm screaming with torturous pain in a lava pit regardless of what I did on earth, its clearly because God is love.

Brock
06-03-2011, 10:05 PM
Because in the end you would have missed the whole point.

The point according to who?

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 10:06 PM
My god says if you don't join his culture you will rot in hell. But he loves everyone either way.

Culture is unimportant, and it's true he loves each and every one of us and wants us to return it. Just because he loves us doesn't mean he hasn't promised to punish us for disobedience.

whoman69
06-03-2011, 10:08 PM
God: "Your actions mean nothing, atheist! Worship me, damn it! Like me, show me love and devotion! If you don't, then even if you rescued orphans your whole life, I'll banish you into a pit filled with screaming and torture and flames and crying forever and ever! Why? Because you didn't acknowledge my awesomeness, for I am thy God!" :harumph:

God made the world for man. He gave of himself to do so. If you understand what he has given you the love and devotion follows. I don't see why think you need to be rewarded for having no faith in the truths lain out before you.

alnorth
06-03-2011, 10:09 PM
Just because he loves us doesn't mean he hasn't promised to punish us for disobedience.

...and therefore this God is a vain insecure evil prick. Because the people who made him up needed to scare their followers into coming to church to pay their tithe.

bowener
06-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Because in the end you would have missed the whole point.

To love my fellow man and enjoy my life?? That is what I am doing... just without believing in a supernatural being.

KCrockaholic
06-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Culture is unimportant, and it's true he loves each and every one of us and wants us to return it. Just because he loves us doesn't mean he hasn't promised to punish us for disobedience.

How do you know who the fuck MY god is, or what my religion is? And if I don't follow the "correct" gods religion, that means I'm going Christian hell? Somebody's religion has to be the correct one. I mean there's only thousands of different gods out there.

alnorth
06-03-2011, 10:11 PM
God made the world for man. He gave of himself to do so. If you understand what he has given you the love and devotion follows. I don't see why think you need to be rewarded for having no faith in the truths lain out before you.

If worship is more important than good deeds (which are apparently meaningless in comparison), given that there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe in this fairy-tale, then your God is evil.

KCrockaholic
06-03-2011, 10:11 PM
...and therefore this God is a vain insecure evil prick. Because the people who made him up needed to scare their followers into coming to church to pay their tithe.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kv6lhs3fn81qzewk6o1_500.jpg

listopencil
06-03-2011, 10:17 PM
Exactly my point. Quotes are nothing without the context behind them. Bible quotes have been used to espouse all sorts of hatred.

I'm not claiming that Christians are being persecuted, that's the tactic of the extremists. I am arguing that they are creating an America where people are becoming increasingly silent about their belief in God. It may be in a private poll they can say this without fear, but in practice church membership is down across the country.

http://www.wfn.org/2010/02/msg00100.html


Ok, I missed the point of your OP because I thought you were implying that. I agree that it's wrong to foster an environment where people feel that they can not express their religious beliefs (pro or con, regardless of faith) but I still don't see that happening. I do believe that it is inappropriate and illegal to to express your religious beliefs in certain specific instances though.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-03-2011, 10:41 PM
...and therefore this God is a vain insecure evil prick. Because the people who made him up needed to scare their followers into coming to church to pay their tithe.

Actually the word church doesn't mean what most believe. The original Greek word is ecclesia which translates to The Called out ones. Even Jesus tells us he cannot be found in places built by human hands. Man has abused the word all along for gain, as your relationship to GOD is to be an unhindered relationship.

Corinthians I 3-16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Hebrews 9-11,12 “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Acts 7-48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet

KILLER_CLOWN
06-04-2011, 12:54 AM
To love my fellow man and enjoy my life?? That is what I am doing... just without believing in a supernatural being.

Hey as a human i can appreciate what you're doing, but the decision is not up to me. It's not like i wish hell on anyone, quite the opposite actually.

Count Zarth
06-04-2011, 07:28 AM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?


You don't want to get into heaven. They don't even have cable.

BWillie
06-04-2011, 08:07 AM
The point being to make the world a much better place by using Jesus's example to follow. To bring Heaven to Earth is the calling of all Christians. Unless you think the world is a pretty great place as is.

The world would undoubtedly be a better place if people werent religious. Religion is the cause of so conflict. You ever see athiests bombing world trade centers? Religion is an old outdated attempted explanation of where we came from and what happens when we die.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-04-2011, 08:40 AM
You ever see athiests bombing world trade centers?

Yes Tim Osman was an atheist.

Fishpicker
06-04-2011, 08:56 AM
I had to give up Christianity. It's too depressing. I was agnostic for a while but I recently watched a George Carlin special wherein he described The Big Electron. I'm gonna go with that. I can ponder on it without becoming bored and it doesn't make me worry. In fact, its kind of comforting to think about being a part of it.

I really like the KJV Bible though. would read again if I had the time. the first chapter of James and the Revelation of John are sharp.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-04-2011, 09:58 AM
I had to give up Christianity. It's too depressing. I was agnostic for a while but I recently watched a George Carlin special wherein he described The Big Electron. I'm gonna go with that. I can ponder on it without becoming bored and it doesn't make me worry. In fact, its kind of comforting to think about being a part of it.

I really like the KJV Bible though. would read again if I had the time. the first chapter of James and the Revelation of John are sharp.

Sorry to hear that Fishpicker, I like Carlin as well but he was just a man, a very funny and intelligent man but a man nonetheless.

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 10:07 AM
What a crock of shit. Get back to me when there's an atheist belt. ****ing hilarious whenever Christians act like they're some sort of persecuted minority.

It's easy to get religious people to believe they're being persecuted if you can offer even minor anecdotal evidence. You're talking about people who believe in a magical man in the sky who knows everything.

HolyHandgernade
06-04-2011, 10:09 AM
There is something to be said for faith.

Sure, as long as it isn't held up as the only answer. I think faith ought to lead towards discovery, not as a catchall for the unexplained.

The extremists are fueling the lack of faith in America.

As extremists in any field often do.

First off, there is nothing in science that disproves the bible.

But, we also have to acknowledge that there is very little in the Bible to be masqueraded as science. Pseudo religion is just as bad as pseudo science.

The fault lies in reading too literally into a work of symbolic images.

Of course, but the problem lies in that the Bible is not clear when it is professing literalism versus allegory that often. As a deist, I take the whole book allegorically and am quite fond of it in that manner. Disagreements are usually born of the difference between what one party wants to take literally that another does not.

The big bang theory and evolution do not disprove God. They are merely explanations of how we came into being.

I think you will find the majority of scientists will tell you that scientific theories are not meant to answer the question of God. I think most will tell you authentic spirituality and authentic science are not in conflict with one another.

If you are preaching that God is hate, you are way off the mark.

I don't think most people preach "God is hate". I think most have difficulty in confining God to old stories with supernatural qualities. I think different people need God to represent different things for them at different points in their life and resentment comes from someone telling them their approach is "wrong".

Jesus is love. Jesus was always hanging around those who were cast off from society. Jesus would be telling them there is a place for them in heaven, not God hates you.

Sadly, in America, the care for one's fellow man is is given a scapegoat by calling it "socialism" and they believe Jesus wants them to be rich and prosperous. If Christianity were to follow the example of Jesus more closely, this country would look a lot differently.

Another source of extremism comes from factions within the Pro-Life movement. I will never understand how the hypocrites cannot understand that murdering to end murder is not a good solution. I don't see abortion as a good method of birth control, but their only answer is no birth control. They create lies in stating 95% of Planned Parenthood's budget is about abortion when its in reality about 3%. Stop hating and start creating solutions. Abstinence is not the answer for everyone. I would say its not a realistic answer for anyone. When abstinence fails then unwanted births and venereal diseases follow.

A very reasoned view.

So let's go out there and show that most Christians are normal people and should not be defined by the extremists.

I wish you the best of luck in demonstrating the best and truest face of Christianity.

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 10:16 AM
Exactly my point. Quotes are nothing without the context behind them. Bible quotes have been used to espouse all sorts of hatred.

I'm not claiming that Christians are being persecuted, that's the tactic of the extremists. I am arguing that they are creating an America where people are becoming increasingly silent about their belief in God. It may be in a private poll they can say this without fear, but in practice church membership is down across the country.

http://www.wfn.org/2010/02/msg00100.html

How many people have professed their belief in God and then been kicked out by their parents and threatened by the kind, loving atheists in the community they grew up in?

http://www.alternet.org/belief/151086/high_school_student_stands_up_against_prayer_at_public_school_and_is_ostracized,_demeaned_and_threat ened/

When a single Christian is confronted with an atheist, they generally respond as you would think they would: kind. When mob mentality is an undercurrent, and those Christians convince themselves that you're interfering with their pursuit of their eternal prize, look out.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-04-2011, 10:16 AM
Sadly, in America, the care for one's fellow man is is given a scapegoat by calling it "socialism" and they believe Jesus wants them to be rich and prosperous. If Christianity were to follow the example of Jesus more closely, this country would look a lot differently.


Yes in the new bible translations the word righteousness has been changed to prosperity. It must also be noted that Jesus did not espouse socialist views. Jesus is not a Republican nor is he a Democrat.

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 10:20 AM
The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

All this based on stories written by men who weren't alive during the time of the Jesus character, the hand-picked by a bunch of other men much later who threw away the stuff that didn't agree with their goals. Oh, I know, God inspired their hand etc.

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 10:25 AM
...and therefore this God is a vain insecure evil prick. Because the people who made him up needed to scare their followers into coming to church to pay their tithe.

So many people who belong to organized religious organizations miss this. The God story as told by the church has to eliminate the possibility of a personal relationship with God. They need you so scared of screwing up that you're desperate for expert guidance.

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:31 AM
You're talking about people who believe in a magical man in the sky who knows everything.

Could you be more dishonest in your assessment of religious believers?

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Yes Tim Osman was an atheist.

Either you're a top 10 Internet troll of all times or you have a million dollar custom built tinfoil hat.

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:37 AM
So many people who belong to organized religious organizations miss this. The God story as told by the church has to eliminate the possibility of a personal relationship with God. They need you so scared of screwing up that you're desperate for expert guidance.

I read Tocqueville's Democracy in American a couple of years ago, and his development of democracy analysis included an interesting idea: the Church's open invitation to any person of class into the priesthood advanced a democratic culture.

This expert guidance is called . . . education. You send your kids to school so they can do things competently. That's what the Church wanted: people educated in all of this so they could preach, teach, practice religion educatedly. It doesn't have anything to do with fear or a special caste they sought to create. Like Tocqueville pointed out, any male could become a priest or monk. Not just members of the aristocracy.

And the Church does not eliminate the possibility of a personal relationship with God, in the sense that one can pray to, respond to, think of, God.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-04-2011, 10:43 AM
Either you're a top 10 Internet troll of all times or you have a million dollar custom built tinfoil hat.

Facts are facts, i'm not interested in lies.

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:43 AM
All this based on stories written by men who weren't alive during the time of the Jesus character, the hand-picked by a bunch of other men much later who threw away the stuff that didn't agree with their goals. Oh, I know, God inspired their hand etc.

As opposed to you, who was inspired by a History channel program and now thinks you're an expert on the development of Christianity.

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:44 AM
You don't want to get into heaven. They don't even have cable.

That's a little presumptuous, isn't it?

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:52 AM
So, if I'm not going to hell, there's no reason to believe in god, and certainly none to worship him.

So, what's the ****ing point?

PASS

Don't worry, you're still probably going to hell.

Jenson71
06-04-2011, 10:57 AM
But I am following an identical path of Jesus. I just don't believe in a god. How is a good act not as good without believing in Jesus? I am not trying to be an asshole here, I am genuinely interested in your answer. If I teach a man to fish, but do not believe in Jesus, how is it worse than teaching a man to fish, but believing in Jesus while I instruct this ignorant being?

Are you really following an identical path of Jesus? I mean, that's really hard to do. And you concede that you "just don't believe in a god" as if that was some minor aspect of Jesus' teaching. That's like saying I have an identical twin, but he's a dog. But we still have two ears, eyes, mouth, and intestines.

Your act of teaching a man to fish while a believer is, at face value, neither better nor worse than while a disbeliever.

Count Zarth
06-04-2011, 03:50 PM
Don't worry, you're still probably going to hell.

I know one thing, I can't watch porn in heaven.

Sounds like a shitty place.

Pants
06-04-2011, 03:55 PM
The 1st point is absolutely accurate but the second Sounds like exactly what Satan is trying to do, get back to the garden. Sorry that ship has sailed, our place is not to bring heaven to earth. Hang on to what you have and pray you are counted worthy. If you follow Jesus' example you will be hated, but we should obey GOD rather than men.

What if I follow Jesus' example but I don't worship the Christian God? I don't need religion to be kind to others.

Count Zarth
06-04-2011, 03:56 PM
What if I follow Jesus' example but I don't worship the Christian God? I don't need religion to be kind to others.

Burn in hell.

ClevelandBronco
06-04-2011, 04:01 PM
What if I follow Jesus' example but I don't worship the Christian God? I don't need religion to be kind to others.

The world will be a better place for you and the people around you. I can't tell you anything about hell or the eternal consequences of this decision or that one. I don't know anything about that.

CrazyPhuD
06-04-2011, 06:02 PM
Personally I'm still waiting for the catholic church to answer this question.

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durtyrute
06-04-2011, 07:13 PM
I have noticed at least once a month for the past 6 or 7 months some priest is on the news for touching some boy. It's been more frequent this year than I can ever remember. Since the mainstream media is just on big spin machine, I have wondered if these things are actually happening or are they just attacking religion. Seems a little odd that most of the time the families just settle out of court. If that were my kid I would want to kill the guy not just take some money and call it a day.

Simplex3
06-04-2011, 07:28 PM
I have noticed at least once a month for the past 6 or 7 months some priest is on the news for touching some boy. It's been more frequent this year than I can ever remember. Since the mainstream media is just on big spin machine, I have wondered if these things are actually happening or are they just attacking religion. Seems a little odd that most of the time the families just settle out of court. If that were my kid I would want to kill the guy not just take some money and call it a day.

If you thought your eternal salvation was part of that payoff what would you do? These people may risk excommunication if they press the issue.

Personally I hope the church keeps on covering up for kid-fuckers (we really filter out pedo-phile for audiophile here?). With a shortage of priests and the church covering for psychos the problem will compound itself as more sickos are drawn to the church for the cover and the church gets desperate to take them. The implosion should be quite a sight to see.

Count Zarth
06-04-2011, 08:59 PM
Personally I'm still waiting for the catholic church to answer this question.

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Fucking Jews trying to make god look bad.

Mr. Flopnuts
06-04-2011, 09:25 PM
If you thought your eternal salvation was part of that payoff what would you do? These people may risk excommunication if they press the issue.

Personally I hope the church keeps on covering up for kid-fuckers (we really filter out pedo-phile for audiophile here?). With a shortage of priests and the church covering for psychos the problem will compound itself as more sickos are drawn to the church for the cover and the church gets desperate to take them. The implosion should be quite a sight to see.

I'd never really considered it that way before. Scary, but only because it makes so much sense for the money machine to keep on turning.

Jenson71
06-05-2011, 10:36 AM
If you thought your eternal salvation was part of that payoff what would you do? These people may risk excommunication if they press the issue.

No, they don't. Shit, you are ignorant.

Personally I hope the church keeps on covering up for kid-****ers (we really filter out pedo-phile for audiophile here?). With a shortage of priests and the church covering for psychos the problem will compound itself as more sickos are drawn to the church for the cover and the church gets desperate to take them. The implosion should be quite a sight to see.

I love your concern for children. Your hope is not that the Church reformed and has started to protect children better, but that the Church keeps on covering up for child molesters.

Unfortunately for you and your twisted desires, the Church has significantly formed since the child abuse scandal. If you paid one bit of attention to this, you'd know that. So there hasn't be an implosion, there hasn't been a mass flock of pedophiles to the Church.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-05-2011, 12:07 PM
you'd be bickering over a nutty fantasy story book written by men almost a couple thousand years ago in an attempt to gain worshippers, money, and power.

Somewhere along the way the guys who knew it was all bullcrap died out and the leadership of the recently-invented religion of christianity was taken over by the true believers. Fortunately, Christianity seems to have morphed into a mostly harmless benevolent organization that generally does more good than harm.

Scoff at the Scientologists now if you want, but Hubbard was following the blueprint.

Knocked it out of the park. Well done.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-05-2011, 12:13 PM
The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

I have no inclination to believe something this silly LMAO

Brock
06-05-2011, 12:20 PM
I have noticed at least once a month for the past 6 or 7 months some priest is on the news for touching some boy. It's been more frequent this year than I can ever remember. Since the mainstream media is just on big spin machine, I have wondered if these things are actually happening or are they just attacking religion. Seems a little odd that most of the time the families just settle out of court. If that were my kid I would want to kill the guy not just take some money and call it a day.

It's because they love the church more than they love their kid.

RNR
06-05-2011, 12:20 PM
Unfortunately for you and your twisted desires, the Church has significantly formed since the child abuse scandal. If you paid one bit of attention to this, you'd know that. So there hasn't be an implosion, there hasn't been a mass flock of audiophiles to the Church.

What a crock of shit. The scandal you speak of has gone on for several decades and was covered up. Save the high ground speech~

vailpass
06-05-2011, 12:47 PM
I love you...so SUFFER IN THE END OR ELSE.

Great job of contradicting yourself, idiot xtian.

Your parents and that JW cult mind-fucked you so hard you are never coming back.

Jenson71
06-05-2011, 03:19 PM
What a crock of shit. The scandal you speak of has gone on for several decades and was covered up. Save the high ground speech~

Do you think this contradicts what I just said? Because it doesn't.

durtyrute
06-06-2011, 07:48 AM
It's because they love the church more than they love their kid.

YIKES!!

Amnorix
06-06-2011, 08:09 AM
The only path is through the son. If atheists can't believe until God himself comes down to tell them, they have failed. They have in truth already been given the proof, but fail to accept it. Acts are only part of the equation. Those acts would also be incomplete without Jesus in ones life. It all comes down to belief in the end. The idea for a Christian is not to lead a good life so they can get into heaven. The idea is to follow the path set down by Jesus.

I do not mean this to be demeaning in any sense, but the bottom line is, having grown up without any religion, I have always found Christianity to be no less ridiculous than Zeus on Olympus, or worshipping the spirits of the wind and the trees.

It's just patently ridiculous.

But religious disputes usually aren't worth having. You have your beliefs, and so long as you don't try to forcibly impose them on me (which the adherents of Christianity used to be particularly "good" at), then that's perfectly fine. If those beliefs honestly help you to be a better person, then all the better.

RNR
06-06-2011, 08:55 AM
Do you think this contradicts what I just said? Because it doesn't.
You have your hands full defending that church and its actions, and not just child abuse~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 09:50 AM
You have your hands full defending that church and its actions, and not just child abuse~

You bolded the part where I said, or meant to say, that the Church had significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted.

You said that was a crock of shit, then said something that didn't advance your argument as to why that's a crock of shit.

So please, tell me why it's a crock of shit to say that the Church has significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted.

Brock
06-06-2011, 09:55 AM
It's pretty hard to believe, given how long they covered it up and pretended nothing happened.

Iowanian
06-06-2011, 10:05 AM
The biggest issue I see is that there seems to be confusion as to the difference between "freedom OF religion" and freedom FROM religion.

A Christmas Tree in a public park doesn't prevent you from celebrating your own values, and a Chanukah poster doesn't offend me or mine.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Here is a simple list of things the Church has done since the sex abuse scandal began:

http://usccb.org/catholic-church-sxl-ab.pdf

Significant reform.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:05 AM
You bolded the part where I said, or meant to say, that the Church had significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted.

You said that was a crock of shit, then said something that didn't advance your argument as to why that's a crock of shit.

So please, tell me why it's a crock of shit to say that the Church has significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted.

The church was forced and I mean flat out forced to reform and begrudgingly started to clean up its act. It knew of this despicable problem for several decades It moved and hid priests, covered up and lied every time. Anyone who tries to minimize or brush over this unbelievable activity that spanned at least 40 to 50 years that we know of is shameless. Your nonchalant the church has reformed since the scandal statement is worded as if it was a onetime instance~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:12 AM
The church was forced and I mean flat out forced to reform and begrudgingly started to clean up its act. It knew of this despicable problem for several decades It moved and hid priests, covered up and lied every time. Anyone who tries to minimize or brush over this unbelievable activity that spanned at least 40 to 50 years that we know of is shameless. Your nonchalant the church has reformed since the scandal statement is worded as if it was a onetime instance~

Don't tell me that I've tried to minimize and brush over this, you ****ing prick. Do you deny that the Church has introduced significant reforms? Or do you just not care about these reforms and wish to ignore the hard work that a lot of people have spent in bringing them about?

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:14 AM
Why is it that Simplex ducks out on religious argument when his opponent is not a foaming-at-the-mouth-Biblical-literalist? Intellectual coward.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Don't tell me that I've tried to minimize and brush over this, you ****ing prick. Do you deny that the Church has introduced significant reforms? Or do you just not care about these reforms?

I care they had to be forced to make them and it took DECADES! You fucking prick~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:19 AM
I care they had to be forced to make them and it took DECADES! You ****ing prick~

Do you think you're some slick politician? Is the question uncomfortable for you? Why refuse to answer it or ignore it?

You said it was a crock of shit that the Church had significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted. Why? Stop being a coward: answer it or take it back.

Here's my guess: you're as fucked up as simplex. You don't want the reforms. You want molested children.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:21 AM
Personally I hope the church keeps on covering up for kid-****ers

Appalling, but not surprising, Simplex. But when a person choses to represent himself with a picture of a child's toy holding a gun, it sends off certain vibes that the person doesn't care about the well being of children or thinks such pictures are funny, which says a lot about their personality.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:25 AM
Do you think you're some slick politician? Is the question uncomfortable for you? Why refuse to answer it or ignore it?

You said it was a crock of shit that the Church had significantly reformed since the sex abuse scandal erupted. Why? Stop being a coward: answer it or take it back.

Here's my guess: you're as ****ed up as simplex. You don't want the reforms. You want molested children.

I wanted the church to react as soon as they were aware of the problem. Giving them credit is the same as giving a child molester credit for reforming after they have been caught and are forced to reform. Also neg rep really LMAO~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:29 AM
I wanted a church to react as soon as they were aware of the problem. Giving them credit is the same as giving a child molester credit for reforming after they have been caught and are forced to reform. Also neg rep really LMAO~

Yeah, we would all want a church to react asap. But that didn't happen.

I'm not asking you to give the Church credit, you imbecile. I'm asking you to acknowledge that the Church has made significant reforms. Because that's the fact. The fact that you replied was "a crock of shit" but haven't done anything to advance that argument.

Why not? It's because you don't have an argument. You just want to do your hit-piece, because that serves your political agenda. You are a political hack, wanting to go about your hackery, disliking anything that steps in your way.

I gave you negative rep. Do I not have the ability to do it? Are you going to be okay with that? Neg rep is there to indicate, with enthusiasm, that you disliked a certain post. Start a thread whining about it.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah, we would all want a church to react asap. But that didn't happen.

I'm not asking you to give the Church credit, you imbecile. I'm asking you to acknowledge that the Church has made significant reforms. Because that's the fact. The fact that you replied was "a crock of shit" but haven't done anything to advance that argument.

Why not? It's because you don't have an argument. You just want to do your hit-piece, because that serves your political agenda.

I gave you negative rep. Do I not have the ability to do it? Are you going to be okay with that? Neg rep is there to indicate, with enthusiasm, that you disliked a certain post. Start a thread whining about it.
I have answered your question and I know about neg rep, I just never use it and I think it is funny when someone does~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:32 AM
I have answered your question and I know about neg rep, I just never use it and I think it is funny when someone does~

So you acknowledge that the Church has made significant reforms.

I'm glad I could provide you with some entertainment with the negative rep. I will continue to do so. I thought you were complaining about it, with your inclusion of the word 'really.' But I see I was mistaken and you aren't whining about it.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:37 AM
So you acknowledge that the Church has made significant reforms.

I'm glad I could provide you with some entertainment with the negative rep. I will continue to do so. I thought you were complaining about it, with your inclusion of the word 'really.' But I see I was mistaken and you aren't whining about it.

Forced reforms. As far as neg rep I could give shit less about it~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Forced reforms. As far as neg rep I could give shit less about it~

So when I said that the Church has made significant reforms, and you said, "what a crock of shit" you really meant, "Yes, the Church has made significant reforms, but they were forced to do them."

Be a little more precise next time in your criticism. Or is your lack of precision and clarity the reason why you end every post with a tilde mark?

mnchiefsguy
06-06-2011, 11:42 AM
While the Catholic Church has mads some reforms, it is arguable whether they are significant, and given that abuse still seems to be readily occurring, that the Church needs to continue to reform and be proactive. It also still needs to step up to the plate and turn these molesters, over to the authorities, a position with with the Church has been lukewarm at best in endorsing.

RNR
06-06-2011, 11:44 AM
So when I said that the Church has made significant reforms, and you said, "what a crock of shit" you really meant, "Yes, the Church has made significant reforms, but they were forced to do them."

Be a little more precise next time in your criticism. Or is your lack of precision and clarity the reason why you end every post with a tilde mark?
I said as much several times and as far as ending every post with a tidle mark it is just something I started doing quite a while ago in emails and started doing it here~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:52 AM
While the Catholic Church has mads some reforms, it is arguable whether they are significant

They are huge. They are everything the victims associations want. They are institutionally-wide, covering the entire world. They are instituted at the highest level and they affect everything down from dioceses to individual churches to individual priests.

and given that abuse still seems to be readily occurring

Complete fucking lie.

that the Church needs to continue to reform and be proactive. It also still needs to step up to the plate and turn these molesters, over to the authorities, a position with with the Church has been lukewarm at best in endorsing.

and by lukewarm at best in endorsing, you must mean "a position with which the Church has now implemented."

Seriously, how much of this ignorance is blinded by pure bigotedness?

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 11:54 AM
I said as much several times and as far as ending every post with a tidle mark it is just something I started doing quite a while ago in emails and started doing it here~

Something to remember you by? Because your ignorance and intolerance just isn't enough, huh?

SNR
06-06-2011, 12:04 PM
I know one thing, I can't watch porn in heaven.

Sounds like a shitty place.
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RNR
06-06-2011, 12:09 PM
Something to remember you by? Because your ignorance and intolerance just isn't enough, huh?

Gee you and gochiefs are the only people here that I seem to bother...I can live with that LMAO

mnchiefsguy
06-06-2011, 12:17 PM
and by lukewarm at best in endorsing, you must mean "a position with which the Church has now implemented."

Seriously, how much of this ignorance is blinded by pure bigotedness?

As I recall from another long thread about the Church, the Church only reports to the authorities in areas where it is legally required to do so. If this is not correct, and they are now reporting abuse to the authorities anytime it happens, regardless of the legal requirement to do so, then I stand corrected and would applaud that as a good thing.

I am not bigoted towards Catholics. My in-laws are Catholic. But their conduct in these matters, along with the attitude of the Church itself over the years has made Christianity in general look bad. I hold them, and any other Church for that matter, to a high standard. And, as a parent, I can't even begin to imagine the agony and hard done if that was done to one of my children. The Church should heavily ere on the side of protection the children under its watch, period.

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Don't tell me that I've tried to minimize and brush over this, you ****ing prick. Do you deny that the Church has introduced significant reforms? Or do you just not care about these reforms and wish to ignore the hard work that a lot of people have spent in bringing them about?

whoa, don't hold back, mon, tell us how you really feel...

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 12:20 PM
While the Catholic Church has mads some reforms, it is arguable whether they are significant, and given that abuse still seems to be readily occurring, that the Church needs to continue to reform and be proactive. It also still needs to step up to the plate and turn these molesters, over to the authorities, a position with with the Church has been lukewarm at best in endorsing.

I'll bet if someone raped a priest they'd be willing to involve law enforcement though.

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 12:22 PM
whoa, don't hold back, mon, tell us how you really feel...

He's just following in his savior's footsteps and turning the other cheek.

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:23 PM
So when I said that the Church has made significant reforms, and you said, "what a crock of shit" you really meant, "Yes, the Church has made significant reforms, but they were forced to do them."

Be a little more precise next time in your criticism. Or is your lack of precision and clarity the reason why you end every post with a tilde mark?

ok, you've gone too far...

some really good people end every line with some grammatical symbol or another...

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Gee you and gochiefs are the only people here that I seem to bother...I can live with that LMAO

oh yeah?

you and your commie teabaggin self act all reasonable and shit and we don't know how to take that here in dc...

your reasoning is too good, and your sense of humor too refined to ever be liked hereabouts...

dammit, why don't you just go away and die in an aids tree watered with antifreeze?

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Gee you and gochiefs are the only people here that I seem to bother...I can live with that LMAO

Are we the only two that have given you the dreaded neg rep mark?

RNR
06-06-2011, 12:30 PM
oh yeah?

you and your commie teabaggin self act all reasonable and shit and we don't know how to take that here in dc...

your reasoning is too good, and your sense of humor too refined to ever be liked hereabouts...

dammit, why don't you just go away and die in an aids tree watered with antifreeze?

Why I awda neg rep you~

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:30 PM
I said as much several times and as far as ending every post with a tidle mark it is just something I started doing quite a while ago in emails and started doing it here~

see? speaking plain english with unmistakable (well, almost unmistakable) meaning?

that's why nobody likes you, you freakin pin pincher, you...

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 12:32 PM
He's just following in his savior's footsteps and turning the other cheek.

Hey, there you are, doing your hit pieces from afar. Intellectual coward.

chasedude
06-06-2011, 12:32 PM
Are we the only two that have given you the dreaded neg rep mark?

I gave him Pos rep to counter act your neg rep. 'Cause us non-believers need to stand together from the persecution of the believers.

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:32 PM
Why I awda neg rep you~

please, it's been so long i almost don't remember what it's like...

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:33 PM
I gave him Pos rep to counter act your neg rep. 'Cause us non-believers need to stand together from the persecution of the believers.

count me in... o:-) o:-) o:-)

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 12:34 PM
I gave him Pos rep to counter act your neg rep. 'Cause us non-believers need to stand together from the persecution of the believers.

Cool, dude!

Fish
06-06-2011, 12:36 PM
Quote from the Pope:

In September 2010, Pope Benedict XVI lamented that the Roman Catholic Church had not been vigilant enough or quick enough in responding to the problem of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy. In discussions with the press, he stated that "These revelations were for me a shock and a great sadness. It is difficult to understand how this perversion of the priestly ministry was possible," "It is also a great sadness that the authorities of the church were not sufficiently vigilant and insufficiently quick and decisive in taking the necessary measures."<sup id="cite_ref-BenedictXVI-shock-and-sadness_124-0" class="reference">[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-BenedictXVI-shock-and-sadness-124)</sup>

The amount of money paid out just in the U.S. is staggering...

According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_settlement) and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.<sup id="cite_ref-41" class="reference">[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-41)</sup> Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.<sup id="cite_ref-42" class="reference">[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-42)</sup>

By 2009, U.S. dioceses have paid more than US$2.6 billion in abuse-related costs since 1950.<sup id="cite_ref-usatodayAP_43-0" class="reference">[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-usatodayAP-43)</sup>
Especially considering the prosecution rate is shockingly low...

While the Church in the United States claims to have addressed the issue, some disagree. As Mark Honigsbaum from The Guardian put it in 2006, "...despite the National Review Board's own estimates that there have been some 5,000 abusive priests in the US, to date only 150 have been successfully prosecuted." Some critics of the Church such as Patrick Wall attribute this to a lack of cooperation from the church.150 Prosecutions, yet $2.6B paid out. Damn....

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 12:43 PM
I read them often and frankie did one time along with BEP and some hip hop guy. It has been a long long time since I got one. As I said rep is really a joke and I have never given neg rep to anyone I just reply in a post. That said your "**** you. Answer the question you slimy piece of shit." is the meanest one ever if that cheers you up ;)

I don't know why you're feeding the petulant child.

mnchiefsguy
06-06-2011, 12:45 PM
I read them often and frankie did one time along with BEP and some hip hop guy. It has been a long long time since I got one. As I said rep is really a joke and I have never given neg rep to anyone I just reply in a post. That said your "**** you. Answer the question you slimy piece of shit." is the meanest one ever if that cheers you up ;)

Wow, you must have really made Jenson mad.

RNR
06-06-2011, 12:46 PM
Are we the only two that have given you the dreaded neg rep mark?

Edit: I quoted the wrong post~

I read them often and frankie did one time along with BEP and some hip hop guy. It has been a long long time since I got one. As I said rep is really a joke and I have never given neg rep to anyone I just reply in a post. That said your "**** you. Answer the question you slimy piece of shit." is the meanest one ever if that cheers you up ;)

go bowe
06-06-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't know why you're feeding the petulant child.

good lord, man...

it's the offseason!!!

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 12:47 PM
good lord, man...

it's the offseason!!!

Oh, right. Not only that but the actual season is in question as well. My bad.

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 12:48 PM
Phil Hellenes says it all for me...

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iLaazXqrGls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I mean, just how bankrupt must religion be? The people on the radio show were NOT ignorant or unintelligent in ANY way. They KNOW what crucifixion means. They KNOW what TRUE persecution means. They KNOW words and ideas are not nails and hammers, or a rope hanging from a tree. How dare those disingenuous fuckers claim to be persecuted? When does gross exaggeration become a downright lie? The early Christians would laugh (or spit) at the use of the word "persecution" to describe the plight of believers in the west in the 21st Century. The only threat to a believer these days is humiliation and embarrassment, and laughter. And may it grow, and grow.

The persecution of the religious is mostly carried out BY the religious, such as as in Roman times, or in the gas chambers. How I wish I could put these deceptive, fake-whining asshats into the shoes of someone who REALLY faced such horrors, just for a second. They would return, I think, weeping with gratitude to the 21st Century and would never dare repeat their accusation of "persecution" by modern humanists/secularists...out of SHAME.

No doubt you also felt oppressed because you only had 75% of the air-time on a radio show.

mnchiefsguy
06-06-2011, 12:48 PM
good lord, man...

it's the offseason!!!

No kidding. The worst offseason in a long, long time. Maybe if we go the players and owners to participate in work stoppage thread in the DC forum we could come to an agreement....then again, maybe not. :hmmm:

RNR
06-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Oh, right. Not only that but the actual season is in question as well. My bad.

Ok because I had my finger on the neg rep button ;)

RNR
06-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Quote from the Pope:

The amount of money paid out just in the U.S. is staggering...

Especially considering the prosecution rate is shockingly low...

150 Prosecutions, yet $2.6B paid out. Damn....

This is what I was getting at. The way the church has handled it is a disgrace~

Brock
06-06-2011, 12:59 PM
This is what I was getting at. The way the church has handled it is a disgrace~

DO YOU DENY THAT THEY MADE SIGNIFICANT REFORMS AND THEY HAD TO BE DRAGGED KICKING AND SCREAMING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY?????

RNR
06-06-2011, 01:00 PM
DO YOU DENY THAT THEY MADE SIGNIFICANT REFORMS AND THEY HAD TO BE DRAGGED KICKING AND SCREAMING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY?????

LMAO uh...no sir...I do not~

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 01:11 PM
DO YOU DENY THAT THEY MADE SIGNIFICANT REFORMS AND THEY HAD TO BE DRAGGED KICKING AND SCREAMING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY?????

hehe.

Forgive me if, after decades of them telling us there was no problem, I don't believe them now when they say they're really, really serious this time about cleaning it up.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 02:29 PM
This is what I was getting at. The way the church has handled it is a disgrace~

That's what you were getting at? You not only began by telling me that the Church's reforms were a "crock of shit," but you then suggested that I was trying to minimize the entire sex abuse scandal.

If you weren't so ignorant, I'd accuse you of being dishonest, like I accuse Simplex of being.

RNR
06-06-2011, 02:37 PM
That's what you were getting at? You not only began by telling me that the Church's reforms were a "crock of shit," but you then suggested that I was trying to minimize the entire sex abuse scandal.

If you weren't so ignorant, I'd accuse you of being dishonest, like I accuse Simplex of being.

Piss off scooter LMAO there are several bagging your church yet it is me you keep coming after...too funny~

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 02:37 PM
hehe.

Forgive me if, after decades of them telling us there was no problem, I don't believe them now when they say they're really, really serious this time about cleaning it up.

Why not, you dishonest bitch? The Church didn't say there was no problem for decades. They, bishops and priests, did not say anything. That's the problem. Over 90% of the abuses occurred before 1990, most of them in the 1960s-1970s.

There is a new Pope, there are new bishops, new priests, and, as I provided you all with the link to, significant reforms inside the Church that have been recently implemented in order to combat sex abuse.

I'm not going to forgive you if you choose to ignore everything in order to make your political point. The fact is that you are ignoring the reforms in much the same way that the bishops ignored the cries of sexually abused children.

And I'm not going to pretend like you have some interest in protecting children, you sick fuck. In your own words, you have displayed how disgusting your goals are. Fuck you, you dishonest scum.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 02:38 PM
DO YOU DENY THAT THEY MADE SIGNIFICANT REFORMS AND THEY HAD TO BE DRAGGED KICKING AND SCREAMING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY?????

Is it a crock of shit to say that the Church has made significant reforms? Is it? That's what I said, and RNR attacked it as being a crock of shit.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Piss off scooter LMAO there are several bagging your church yet it is me you keep coming after...too funny~

I don't want to hear you cry. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Personally I hope the church keeps on covering up for kid-****ers.

Pathetic.

Brock
06-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Goodness, such anger.LMAO

RNR
06-06-2011, 02:46 PM
I don't want to hear you cry. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

LMAO this from the guy ducking all the posts that have come in. Go talk to your priest and maybe he will help you be forgiven for talking like this to me "**** you. Answer the question you slimy piece of shit." If you are lucky maybe he will give you a reach around~

Ebolapox
06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
there really is no talking to jenson... he used to be an arrogant know-it-all before college, but at least he was funny in a long-john-silver hat sorta way. now he's completely impossible. seriously, get some perspective by living in the real world, jenson. in the real world, you're not always right, and you're not always wrong. the truth is somewhere between your perspective and the other person's perspective. seriously; get a fucking grip.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Goodness, such anger.LMAO

This is a subject that generates a lot of anger. And why shouldn't it? If you want to mock someone's anger, go find one of the numerous football threads on here that feature people battling back and forth based on an opinion they hold about some athlete.

I'm angry at the group of p-dophiles and homosexuals that decided to enter the Church, my Church, and proceed to sexually abuse innocent children, psychologically damaging them for the rest of their lives. My only hope regarding them is that they are isolated forever in hell. I'm angry at the people in power who could have stopped this or corrected it but did not have either the courage to do so or the moral compass to care. I'm angry at how my defense of the Church can be imputed by some as a defense of child molesters and evil men. I'm angry at how some thrive on this scandal, they love it, and they even hope it continues, and they use that against the Church for their own gain.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 03:13 PM
LMAO this from the guy ducking all the posts that have come in. Go talk to your priest and maybe he will help you be forgiven for talking like this to me "**** you. Answer the question you slimy piece of shit." If you are lucky maybe he will give you a reach around~

Ducking all the posts? What the hell are you talking about? I'm pretty sure that I've addressed every single post that is about me, directed to me, or related to me in some way. If I'm anything, it's very thorough.

You, on the other hand, refused to answer my question for several posts, before you finally conceding. What a bizarre thing for you to accuse me of ducking posts.

And speaking to you in a rough manner is not a sin, no matter how fragile your sensibilities are.

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 03:15 PM
there really is no talking to jenson... he used to be an arrogant know-it-all before college, but at least he was funny in a long-john-silver hat sorta way. now he's completely impossible. seriously, get some perspective by living in the real world, jenson. in the real world, you're not always right, and you're not always wrong. the truth is somewhere between your perspective and the other person's perspective. seriously; get a ****ing grip.

Thank you for your completely vague social commentary. I'm sure we all found it helpful or reassuring.

RNR
06-06-2011, 03:18 PM
Thank you for your completely vague social commentary. I'm sure we all found it helpful or reassuring.

No we just all agreed LMAO

Jenson71
06-06-2011, 03:20 PM
No we just all agreed LMAO

Hence the "reassuring."

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 03:21 PM
This is a subject that generates a lot of anger. And why shouldn't it? If you want to mock someone's anger, go find one of the numerous football threads on here that feature people battling back and forth based on an opinion they hold about some athlete.

I'm angry at the group of p-dophiles and homosexuals that decided to enter the Church, my Church, and proceed to sexually abuse innocent children, psychologically damaging them for the rest of their lives. My only hope regarding them is that they are isolated forever in hell. I'm angry at the people in power who could have stopped this or corrected it but did not have either the courage to do so or the moral compass to care. I'm angry at how my defense of the Church can be imputed by some as a defense of child molesters and evil men. I'm angry at how some thrive on this scandal, they love it, and they even hope it continues, and they use that against the Church for their own gain.

:bravo:

I, for one, am impressed that an organization as massive as the Church was able finally to address a problem that was this volatile and damaging to the faithful as well as the hierarchy. The momentum of any scandal inside an organization so large, which has so much at stake, must have required heroic effort to turn.

Shame on those who took advantage of children. Blessings on those who willingly placed their earthly standing and their eternal souls in peril to protect them.

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 03:23 PM
:bravo:

I, for one, am impressed that an organization as massive as the Church was able finally to address a problem that was this volatile and damaging to the faithful as well as the hierarchy. The momentum of any scandal inside an organization so large, which has so much at stake, must have required heroic effort to turn.

Shame on those who took advantage of children. Blessings on those who willingly placed their earthly standing and their eternal souls in peril to protect them.

They "admitted it" years and years after everyone already knew. Not really that impressive.

RNR
06-06-2011, 03:23 PM
Hence the "reassuring."
Posted on Tue, May. 31, 2011 10:15 PM

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/31/2917419/newest-catholic-church-scandal.html#ixzz1OX8PNJKf
Newest Catholic Church scandal isn’t really new at all


By MIKE HUNTER and DAVID CLOHESSY

Special to The Star

Remember Joplin, and help Joplin get back on its feet
Newest Catholic Church scandal isn’t really new at all
Unwise budget cuts leave huge hole in emergency services
It’s Memorial Day, so take time to remember and give thanks
When your friends move to Canada for health care
Thoughts from Tuscaloosa, Ala., to the people of Joplin
Gun violence in Kansas City threatens local shopkeepers
The increasing risk of health care fragmentation
Local governments are working around the clock
Growing up strong in a land of terror and redemption

Late last week, Bishop Robert Finn promised “changes” in how he and his staff will deal with allegations of child sex crimes by clergy.

We aren’t geniuses, but we’re pretty sure we can predict what Finn will do in the weeks ahead to try to reassure the flock, many of whom are justifiably outraged over the case of Father Shawn Ratigan. For more than a year, top diocesan staff did little in response to repeated suspicions and allegations of inappropriate actions around kids. Last month Ratigan was arrested on child pornography charges.

Here’s what will happen. First, Finn will apologize again. Then he will pick an allegedly “independent outsider” to “re-examine” and “refine” the local diocesan abuse policies. That person will likely be a retired judge or prosecutor, almost certainly a Catholic. Months will pass, and he or she will give a report to Finn. It will contain some harsh language and six to 10 recommendations on how to “tighten” procedures so that this “never happens again.” With great fanfare, Finn will accept the recommendations and all will go back to normal.

If, however, the heat doesn’t subside, Finn may feel compelled to scapegoat someone. If so, it will likely be the female lay principal who authored the detailed, four-page memo which was given to Finn’s second-in-command a full year before Ratigan’s recent arrest. That memo outlined instance after instance of inappropriate and clearly “creepy” behavior by Ratigan, as witnessed by teachers, parents and school staff. And it was largely ignored. Finn will suggest she was most at fault because she didn’t call the police about Ratigan.

Or if the controversy really escalates, Finn may have to throw Monsignor Robert Murphy — his top aide who met with the principal — “under the bus” by quietly demoting him.

But unless law enforcement steps in, Finn himself will emerge essentially unaffected and unscathed.

How can we predict all this? Because we’ve been around for 23 years. Because we’ve monitored such scandals in the church across the world. And because this is the basic template that bishops have used time and time again to defuse anger while deflecting attention from their own misdeeds.

This approach is very attractive to bishops. It implies that a sexually troubled priest was left around kids because of “mistakes” not deliberate decisions. It suggests that flawed “policies,” not callous officials, are the problem. It protects the bishop. And it means no substantial changes are needed.

What then is the real problem? It’s an inherently unaccountable power structure in the church, an ancient, rigid, secretive, all-male monarchy headed by a bishop who basically answers to no one. Theoretically, of course, bishops answer to the Vatican. But there are some 4,400 bishops across the globe. When was the last time you heard about one of them being disciplined by the Pope? It almost never happens.

There are no “checks and balances” on a bishop’s power. So Finn can make all the pledges he wants regarding child safety. But he could then violate those pledges whenever he particularly likes or needs a troubled priest, or dislikes an accuser or whistle-blower. And he might not suffer any real consequences for such wrongdoing.

Finn’s “changes” likely won’t work because they aren’t “changes” in the real sense of the word. They are public relations maneuvers. They are “tweaks” of a vague, weak, unenforced and unenforcible policy which was also largely created, years ago, by PR folks and defense lawyers for the same reasons and under the same pressure for the same scandal, in an earlier iteration.

That’s why we’re desperately hoping police and prosecutors will step up. While our justice system isn’t perfect, it can often unearth the truth in such situations and punish the guilty, thus deterring recklessness, callousness and deceit in the future.


Mike Hunter (left), of Kansas City, is a former owner of an art supply store who is the Kansas City volunteer director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. David Clohessy (right), of St. Louis, is the executive director of the same organization, SNAPNetwork.org.


Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/31/2917419/newest-catholic-church-scandal.html#ixzz1OX7oo243

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 03:25 PM
They "admitted it" years and years after everyone already knew. Not really that impressive.

Think of all the times you've seen, say, a government admit that it made a huge blunder even after everyone knew that it had.

RNR
06-06-2011, 03:26 PM
Think of all the times you've seen, say, a government admit that it made a huge blunder even after everyone knew that it had.

The government is not selling the hand of god in its actions~

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Think of all the times you've seen, say, a government admit that it made a huge blunder even after everyone knew that it had.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/01/us-usa-guatemala-experiment-idUSTRE6903RZ20101001

Not to defend the government for it's transparency, but even they're better than the Catholic church.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 03:53 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/01/us-usa-guatemala-experiment-idUSTRE6903RZ20101001

Not to defend the government for it's transparency, but even they're better than the Catholic church.

60+ years after the experiment. I guess there's some similarity.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 03:55 PM
The government is not selling the hand of god in its actions~

Nor is the Church.

RNR
06-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Nor is the Church.
I disagree that is the pitch. Offering guidance for eternal salvation~

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:08 PM
I don't know how much experience you have with the Church, so I don't really know how to respond to this:

I disagree that is the pitch. Offering guidance for eternal salvation~

...when its foundation is this:

The government is not selling the hand of god in its actions~

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 04:24 PM
If worship is more important than good deeds (which are apparently meaningless in comparison), given that there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe in this fairy-tale, then your God is evil.

I am definitely morally superior to the christian god.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:27 PM
I am definitely morally superior to the christian god.

Yet so underworshipped.

KILLER_CLOWN
06-06-2011, 04:29 PM
Multitudes, Multitudes, in the valley of decision.

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 04:31 PM
Not completely relevant, but funny:

http://clientsfromhell.net/post/6258359045/ultra-strange-encounter-with-a-client-at-the
CLIENT: “Aren’t you supposed to be designing my brochure?”

ME: “It’s Sunday morning. I’m just buying milk because I ran out.”

CLIENT: “Oh, you did? Well, what should we do then if we run out of time for the project, huh? Just leave the last two pages blank and write ‘sorry, ran out of milk’ on them?”

ME: “I don’t know why you’re getting so upset over this.”

CLIENT: “I don’t know why you can’t just eat your cereal dry.”

ME: “What!?”

CLIENT: “I just… Okay, sorry I snapped. I just came from church. That place leaves me feeling so angry for some reason.”

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:34 PM
Not completely relevant, but funny:

http://clientsfromhell.net/post/6258359045/ultra-strange-encounter-with-a-client-at-the

I smiled. I've had those periods. Turned out it was always my fault, not God's.

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 04:40 PM
Yet so underworshipped.

Your point is well taken. I need to do something about that hmmmmmm

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 04:45 PM
Yet so underworshipped.

If I offered you $5 via paypal would you be in? I'm thinking of opening it up to the top 100 worshippers on the planet but since it's your idea you really wouldn't have to do much more than pledge fealty.

I'd kinda like to get an idea what it would be like, if it would be fun or a bunch of work. Maybe this would be worth it.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:46 PM
Your point is well taken. I need to do something about that hmmmmmm

Do the L. Ron thing. You have an interest in astronomy. Work with that. I know: Cosmotology! No, that won't work.

Rausch
06-06-2011, 04:46 PM
The government is not selling the hand of god in its actions~

But it's trying as hard as it can to...

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:48 PM
If I offered you $5 via paypal would you be in? I'm thinking of opening it up to the top 100 worshippers on the planet but since it's your idea you really wouldn't have to do much more than pledge fealty.

I'd kinda like to get an idea what it would be like, if it would be fun or a bunch of work. Maybe this would be worth it.

I'm not for sale, but I can be rented.

Chief Henry
06-06-2011, 04:50 PM
I'm not for sale, but I can be rented.

What corner are you working tonight ;)

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 04:50 PM
That's all I'm asking, a quick couple line bit of worship of the ole Daveo :)

Dave Lane
06-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Or we could just swap, I'd worship you in return for your worshipping me.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:56 PM
What corner are you working tonight ;)

Low and outside. Always low and outside.

ClevelandBronco
06-06-2011, 04:57 PM
That's all I'm asking, a quick couple line bit of worship of the ole Daveo :)

A-a-mazing Dave,
how sweet the sound...

Simplex3
06-06-2011, 05:59 PM
http://comedians.jokes.com/christopher-titus/videos/christopher-titus---pedophilic-priests

chasedude
06-06-2011, 06:17 PM
That's all I'm asking, a quick couple line bit of worship of the ole Daveo :)

Reach DEEEEEP in your pocket, grab that $20 bill, be $20 dollars closer to Jes... er Dave!

LMAO

Ebolapox
06-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Or we could just swap, I'd worship you in return for your worshipping me.

sounds kinda ghey. NTTAWWT.

Bump
06-06-2011, 10:12 PM
Last week's sermon at my church got me to thinking. Christians really are on the defensive these days. The main reason is religious extremists giving Christianity a bad name.

Now I will admit there are people out there who lack faith who would only believe in God if he sent Jesus down to do talk show circuit. Those people are going to be very disappointed. Its not God's responsibility to prove he exists. another dumbass excuse Just because those people cannot see the miracles in everyday life they will suffer in the end. There is something to be said for faith. no, there isn't

The extremists are fueling the lack of faith in America. First off, there is nothing in science that disproves the bible. there is nothing factual in the bible, it's literally all fictionThe fault lies in reading too literally into a work of symbolic images. By creating pseudo sciences you only show ignorance. There is no time stamp in the bible telling us when the apocalypse will come. The bible uses simplistic stories to tell of the creation of the world that some take way too far. Expecting a greater being to explain to people 6500 years ago how the world was created is like sitting down in front of the TV and explaining to the dog how the TV works. Explaining it to someone today would be equally as daunting. maybe people are becoming more intelligentThe big bang theory and evolution do not disprove God. the bible never mentioned it, so it couldn't have happened, right?They are merely explanations of how we came into being.

If you are preaching that God is hate, you are way off the mark. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal." sounds pretty made up(John 3:16) This has long been the basis behind Christianity. Jesus is love. Jesus was always hanging around those who were cast off from society. Jesus would be telling them there is a place for them in heaven, not God hates you. Fred Phelps has cast the first stone. Judge not, Fred, lest ye be judged.

Another source of extremism comes from factions within the Pro-Life movement. I will never understand how the hypocrites cannot understand that murdering to end murder is not a good solution. I don't see abortion as a good method of birth control, but their only answer is no birth control. They create lies in stating 95% of Planned Parenthood's budget is about abortion when its in reality about 3%. Stop hating and start creating solutions. Abstinence is not the answer for everyone. I would say its not a realistic answer for anyone. When abstinence fails then unwanted births and venereal diseases follow. it's not evil to have sex and it's not evil to ****ing wear condoms and if you think otherwise, you're an idiot

So let's go out there and show that most Christians are normal people and should not be defined by the extremists.

I believe in a higher power but I do not believe in any religion. I'm sure Christianity makes life easier for the people who can actually believe in it but I can't and don't and tire of hearing grown adults talking about it constantly. Believe in primitive cultish fairytales if you want to, I guess it helps some people to cope with life, just keep it to yourselves, not everyone shares your faith.

RNR
06-07-2011, 04:26 AM
But it's trying as hard as it can to...

Hard to argue~

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 05:24 AM
Way to make light of several decades of illegal persecution and harassment by the majority! Well done douchebag.
Tsk! Tsk! The superior debatist listo has arrived. Oh and what an overstated generality on the "illegal persecutions."

dirk digler
06-07-2011, 06:33 AM
Is it a crock of shit to say that the Church has made significant reforms? Is it? That's what I said, and RNR attacked it as being a crock of shit.

Have they? I don't know if you have heard about the recent sex scandal at the KC Diocese where the Church knowingly withheld telling the police about one of their priests who was viewing child porn of little girls. Instead they sent him away for psychiatric treatment(because he tried to kill himself over his shame) instead of turning him over to the police.

It doesn't seem to me they have learned anything.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 06:48 AM
Have they? I don't know if you have heard about the recent sex scandal at the KC Diocese where the Church knowingly withheld telling the police about one of their priests who was viewing child porn of little girls. Instead they sent him away for psychiatric treatment(because he tried to kill himself over his shame) instead of turning him over to the police.

It doesn't seem to me they have learned anything.

Neither have other public officials, including schools where the same offense is more widespread.
Not to mention other denominations where this offense happens around the same percent of occurrence. Only, the Catholic Church gets to take the heat in the area for religions.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 06:53 AM
Neither have other public officials, including schools where the same offense is more widespread.
Not to mention other denominations where this offense happens around the same percent of occurrence. Only, the Catholic Church gets to take the heat in the area for religions.

Those are some bold claims. Got anything at all to back them up?

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 06:56 AM
Those are some bold claims. Got anything at all to back them up?

Yep! I sure do. I said it because there were already a couple of threads in this forum, where I posted the statistics along with articles from Education publications. I figured most here are already familiar with those. So they're already in this forum somewhere. The Search will help you find them.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 07:05 AM
This was written by Medved and provides some stats on other denominations:

http://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=4098846&postcount=25

stevieray
06-07-2011, 07:13 AM
..the majoroty of people pushing their beliefs in this thread aren't people who believe in God.

...funny how it always works out that way.

Jenson71
06-07-2011, 07:13 AM
Have they? I don't know if you have heard about the recent sex scandal at the KC Diocese where the Church knowingly withheld telling the police about one of their priests who was viewing child porn of little girls. Instead they sent him away for psychiatric treatment(because he tried to kill himself over his shame) instead of turning him over to the police.

It doesn't seem to me they have learned anything.

Yes, they have made significant reforms. This doesn't mean the Church is immune from having a man who likes child porn entering the priesthood, or that some Bishops or Church officials won't follow the guidelines or remain unclear as to what their duty is.

dirk digler
06-07-2011, 07:17 AM
Neither have other public officials, including schools where the same offense is more widespread.
Not to mention other denominations where this offense happens around the same percent of occurrence. Only, the Catholic Church gets to take the heat in the area for religions.

It seems to me you always hear about teachers having inappropriate relations with students when they are arrested. You don't hear much about the school covering it up and moving teachers around though to hide them.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 07:38 AM
It seems to me you always hear about teachers having inappropriate relations with students when they are arrested. You don't hear much about the school covering it up and moving teachers around though to hide them.

Well, schools haven't generally reported them and schools have moved molesters to other school districts. It's called "Passing the Trash." I posted sources for that too.

I see what I can find using the Search for one of those too.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 07:44 AM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=6615658&postcount=11


only the link within the post appears to no longer work. At least I quoted a portion from it:


After being shown papers detailing Crane's inappropriate behavior in Manchester, the Akron superintendent said to a reporter, "No other district would have hired that individual knowing what you just showed me in that file."

"It's called 'passing the trash,'" says Kansas State University professor Robert Shoop, an expert witness in nearly 50 school abuse cases. "I've worked with individuals who are in their fourth or fifth district, and you find out they've been molesting people for 20 years."

This shuffling of sleazy characters from school district to school district is just one way we're failing to fully protect our children. It's no small concern: In 2004, a U.S. Department of Education study found that nearly 10 percent of public school students have endured unwanted sexual attention from school employees, and close to 7 percent had experienced actual sexual contact -- anything from pinching to kissing to outright molestation.


That's just one source. There's more in some Education publications I've seen.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 07:59 AM
Yes, they have made significant reforms. This doesn't mean the Church is immune from having a man who likes child porn entering the priesthood, or that some Bishops or Church officials won't follow the guidelines or remain unclear as to what their duty is.

The Church is not immune, but since they are no penalties for Bishops who fail to report such a crime to the police, they are not really do all they can to respond, are they? I mean, if a Bishop knew he could lose his position for covering up an incident and withholding information from the police, he would be less inclined to cover-up, no?

May the guidelines the Bishops and Church officials are supposed to follow need to not be guidelines....but requirements issued by the Pope himself. Not following them should be considered disobeying an order from the Pope himself. I think if the Church place that kind of importance on its "significant reforms" then we would see some change in Church behavior.

RNR
06-07-2011, 08:15 AM
Neither have other public officials, including schools where the same offense is more widespread.
Not to mention other denominations where this offense happens around the same percent of occurrence. Only, the Catholic Church gets to take the heat in the area for religions.

The Catholic Church takes heat for the fact they have a track record dating back several decades of hiding, lying and providing a safe haven for these despicable predators. It is asinine to say there is a higher percentage of Catholic molesters as they are from all walks of our society. I would fancy a guess that the highest percentage of molesters are not Christians of any denomination. It is also asinine for someone to be outraged at people who view the reforms that were flat out forced upon the church as less than honorable. The latest case is just last month. The fact of the matter is a repeat offender has a hard time gaining creditability. I hope the Catholic Church is diligent in its efforts to rectify this stain on their reputation. A rational person would understand why many people remain skeptical~

Chieficus
06-07-2011, 08:42 AM
So, if I am an atheist and do nothing but good on this world, even possibly being mistaken for a great christian along the way, only for the sake of doing good, I do not get into heaven?

Whereas if I am christian, a great one at that, and do good things as a means to an end, i.e. THE prize of Heaven, I get into heaven?

God: "Your actions mean nothing, atheist! Worship me, damn it! Like me, show me love and devotion! If you don't, then even if you rescued orphans your whole life, I'll banish you into a pit filled with screaming and torture and flames and crying forever and ever! Why? Because you didn't acknowledge my awesomeness, for I am thy God!" :harumph:

But I am following an identical path of Jesus. I just don't believe in a god. How is a good act not as good without believing in Jesus? I am not trying to be an asshole here, I am genuinely interested in your answer. If I teach a man to fish, but do not believe in Jesus, how is it worse than teaching a man to fish, but believing in Jesus while I instruct this ignorant being?

If worship is more important than good deeds (which are apparently meaningless in comparison), given that there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe in this fairy-tale, then your God is evil.

Deeds and actions are everything. Revelation 20:12--And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And toss in some Matthew 25:31-46 as well.

But the thing is--to stand in the presence of a perfect God we have to be perfect, holy, and completely removed from rebellion and sin and all that stuff God hates...

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Leviticus 19:2 Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.

But here we have a problem...even the best of us gossip, lie, cheat, steal, hate, lust, and so forth. We treat our neighbors with contempt; we covet and pursue stuff in greed when we could instead give to our neighbor in need; we act as pricks, we call people fools... the list could go on. And that's the best of us...not even the ones who oppress the poor, murder, rape, etc.

The story of our lives... Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Romans 3:10 None is righteous, no, not one.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

No one... not the atheist, the christian, the buddhist, the muslim, the mormon, the hindu, the Mother Teresas...no one is good enough to see God; but all are corrupt enough (though we are often blind to our own corruption) to justly deserve God's judgment. After all, he loves his world too much (John 3:16) to let the darkness and curse and stain of sin corrupt it forever (John 3:17-21).

So God the Father sent Jesus, God the Son, to live a perfectly righteous and sinless life (Hebrews 2:14-18, 4:14-16), that whosoever believes in him (John 3:16) and follows him (Luke 9:23) is blessed to have their lawless deeds covered (Romans 4:7-8), because God took them and judged them by nailing them to a bloody cross through Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21 & Colossians 2:8-15), that we, the evil enemies of God, could receive perfect righteousness and be blameless before God (Romans 4:16-5:21).

Not our works, but the works of Jesus.

Therefore, being saved by grace through faith and not by our works, we are transformed to do good works (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Or as Paul puts it elsewhere: Colossians 3:5-14 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.


It's easy to get religious people to believe they're being persecuted if you can offer even minor anecdotal evidence. You're talking about people who believe in a magical man in the sky who knows everything.

Christians in America don't know persecution... now Christians in China, Iran, Sudan, etc. As a whole, we americanized Christians are too fat, lazy, greedy, and ignorant. Persecution isn't teaching my kids about evolution or calling me silly for believing in a magical man in the sky. It is being tossed in prison, being shot, etc. for holding onto beliefs.

Maybe if we actually experienced what some of our brothers and sisters in other countries do, we wouldn't be so whiny, boorish, and self-centered.


I do not mean this to be demeaning in any sense, but the bottom line is, having grown up without any religion, I have always found Christianity to be no less ridiculous than Zeus on Olympus, or worshipping the spirits of the wind and the trees.

It's just patently ridiculous.

But religious disputes usually aren't worth having. You have your beliefs, and so long as you don't try to forcibly impose them on me (which the adherents of Christianity used to be particularly "good" at), then that's perfectly fine. If those beliefs honestly help you to be a better person, then all the better.

I think we Christians sometimes fail to realize: it ain't our job to make our religion intellectually savvy, scientifically sound, politically correct, etc. Heck, it ain't even our job to actually convince people what we say is true. It's simply our job to speak what we believe and give a reason for our hope, and what happens happens (1 Corinthians 3:5-9, 1 Peter 3:15).

I might clarify (like above), but arguing and debating accomplishes little-to-nothing...

And if people think us fools...oh well.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 08:44 AM
The Church is not immune, but since they are no penalties for Bishops who fail to report such a crime to the police, they are not really do all they can to respond, are they? I mean, if a Bishop knew he could lose his position for covering up an incident and withholding information from the police, he would be less inclined to cover-up, no?

May the guidelines the Bishops and Church officials are supposed to follow need to not be guidelines....but requirements issued by the Pope himself. Not following them should be considered disobeying an order from the Pope himself. I think if the Church place that kind of importance on its "significant reforms" then we would see some change in Church behavior.

I'm sure we'll all hear how that would be complicated from the Catholic apologists.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 09:01 AM
I'm sure we'll all hear how that would be complicated from the Catholic apologists.

Not sure how it could be complicated...the Pope issues an order (or edict, or whatever they call it) that says that any Bishop that withholds information or fails to promptly report a molester to the authorities will be removed from the Church. Seems pretty simple to me. I consider covering up the crime to be a heinous crime in and of itself. Protecting molesters from justice is worthy of excommunication, in my opinion. But I have children, so my views may be skewed to protecting the young and innocent.

Iowanian
06-07-2011, 09:02 AM
It's ironic the amount of effort some people put into arguing against something they don't believe in in the first place.


It often looks like penis envy.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 09:06 AM
It's ironic the amount of effort some people put into arguing against something they don't believe in in the first place.


It often looks like penis envy.

I can understand those who argue against because they don't like the way religion effects certain aspects of government---like Focus on the Family pushing laws against online poker, for example, because things like that directly effect their hobbies and/or professions. I don't see any reason to argue so vehemently against when it has no impact on your life.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 09:10 AM
It's ironic the amount of effort some people put into arguing against something they don't believe in in the first place.


It often looks like penis envy.

Kind of like how ironic it is that people with such firm beliefs feel the need to get everyone else to agree.

And to be clear, in general atheists don't run around trying to convince people there is no God. These arguments almost always start when religious people try push their beliefs into government or try to remove science from schools in favor of fairy tales.

Iowanian
06-07-2011, 09:13 AM
Some do, I don't.

I look out for those in my home, you're all on your own for your beliefs.

It just annoys me how much time and effort atheists put into telling believers what idiots we are, and one doesn't have to look very far to see it. To be clear, yes they do. Alot of these disagreements start when some dumbass files a lawsuit against a small town for having "church street".

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 09:20 AM
Some do, I don't.

I look out for those in my home, you're all on your own for your beliefs.

It just annoys me how much time and effort atheists put into telling believers what idiots we are, and one doesn't have to look very far to see it. To be clear, yes they do. Alot of these disagreements start when some dumbass files a lawsuit against a small town for having "church street".

A lawsuit for a street named "Church Street" would fall under dumb as shit in my book. I don't know anyone who is agnostic or atheist who would think that was a reasonable use of resources.

And I agree everyone, including myself, is probably too quick to reach for the "your and idiot" card.

ChiTown
06-07-2011, 09:21 AM
Some do, I don't.

I look out for those in my home, you're all on your own for your beliefs.

It just annoys me how much time and effort atheists put into telling believers what idiots we are, and one doesn't have to look very far to see it. To be clear, yes they do. Alot of these disagreements start when some dumbass files a lawsuit against a small town for having "church street".

:thumb:

Completely agree.

Iowanian
06-07-2011, 09:24 AM
I sneezed in a convenience store and someone said "bless you" and I shouted "F off, Granny! Don't push your stupid magic-book-make-believe values on me!!! YAAAAAAAAR! Sell your Fairy Tale somewhere else, I want to hear no MOAR!"

Iowanian
06-07-2011, 09:28 AM
The next time a stranger pushes their religion fairy tale on me by a random "bless you" I'm going to knock them down, kick them in the guts, take $50 from their wallet and say "Tithe this, asshole!! YAAAAAAAAAR!"

Chieficus
06-07-2011, 09:49 AM
The next time a stranger pushes their religion fairy tale on me by a random "bless you" I'm going to knock them down, kick them in the guts, take $50 from their wallet and say "Tithe this, asshole!! YAAAAAAAAAR!"

You certainly do have a way of providing interesting entertainment to threads like this.

I mean, heck, you can never go wrong with a piratey yar.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 10:02 AM
For anyone on the religious side who cares to actually understand the position of an average atheist:

http://thehiberniatimes.com/2011/06/03/atheism-is-the-true-embrace-of-reality/

ClevelandBronco
06-07-2011, 10:16 AM
For anyone on the religious side who cares to actually understand the position of an average atheist:

http://thehiberniatimes.com/2011/06/03/atheism-is-the-true-embrace-of-reality/

No, thanks. I've already been an above average atheist.

Iowanian
06-07-2011, 10:30 AM
It honestly doesn't bother me if another chooses to be an atheist, what does bother me is that most of them I've come in contact with seem to fancy themselves intellectually superior to me because "they're smart enough to figure out there is no God".

They're try to argue their position and inform me of their "truth" and that I should just see the light of their ways.....in many ways they're worse than the Jehovah's.

It's your soul, do with it as you please.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Kind of like how ironic it is that people with such firm beliefs feel the need to get everyone else to agree.

And to be clear, in general atheists don't run around trying to convince people there is no God. These arguments almost always start when religious people try push their beliefs into government or try to remove science from schools in favor of fairy tales.

This forum coulda' fooled me at times. There is such a thing as Evangelical atheists and imposing atheism in the schools too.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
The Catholic Church takes heat for the fact they have a track record dating back several decades of hiding, lying and providing a safe haven for these despicable predators.

I just find this to be a flagrant generality. Most RC's including clergy are still good people. It was certain people in leadership positions that mishandled it. This was argued extensively in some of those thread links I posted. Such as, in the old days, they put these kind of priests in monasteries where they could no longer deal with the public. During this recently exposed situation priests were sent to psychiatry clinics to get reformed because that profession said they could be changed for the better. They were treated with reams of child pornography instead.

The RCC has had it's share of scandals throughout history not unlike govt's and other religious institutions. These things don't occur from being RCC, it's because pedophiles seek out professions where they can do such things. It even happens in families where the other spouse can be in denial about it for whatever reason including shame and embarrassment about it being made public.

It is asinine to say there is a higher percentage of Catholic molesters as they are from all walks of our society. I would fancy a guess that the highest percentage of molesters are not Christians of any denomination. It is also asinine for someone to be outraged at people who view the reforms that were flat out forced upon the church as less than honorable. The latest case is just last month. The fact of the matter is a repeat offender has a hard time gaining creditability. I hope the Catholic Church is diligent in its efforts to rectify this stain on their reputation. A rational person would understand why many people remain skeptical~
Well, who's doing that? My point is the lack of perspective as in the RCC getting the heat and not other denominations. Maybe the problem is that some of these offenders may be those in charge or have similar transgressions. In fact I know that was the case with a particular Cardinal—I won't say who.

ClevelandBronco
06-07-2011, 11:33 AM
That "audiophile" feature of the filter is dumber than Frankie.

go bowe
06-07-2011, 11:41 AM
audiophile audiophile audiophile

just checking...

now that dane is gone, they could probably drop that filter although it is a kind of monument to dane i guess...

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 11:56 AM
This forum coulda' fooled me at times. There is such a thing as Evangelical atheists and imposing atheism in the schools too.

The threads are started by Christians whining about being persecuted or kicked out of government or being removed from some government funded activity.

ClevelandBronco
06-07-2011, 12:23 PM
The threads are started by Christians whining about being persecuted or kicked out of government or being removed from some government funded activity.

Don't be silly. It just carries over to statements that you actually believe to be true.

RNR
06-07-2011, 02:17 PM
I just find this to be a flagrant generality. Most RC's including clergy are still good people. It was certain people in leadership positions that mishandled it. This was argued extensively in some of those thread links I posted. Such as, in the old days, they put these kind of priests in monasteries where they could no longer deal with the public. During this recently exposed situation priests were sent to psychiatry clinics to get reformed because that profession said they could be changed for the better. They were treated with reams of child pornography instead.

The RCC has had it's share of scandals throughout history not unlike govt's and other religious institutions. These things don't occur from being RCC, it's because audiophiles seek out professions where they can do such things. It even happens in families where the other spouse can be in denial about it for whatever reason including shame and embarrassment about it being made public.


Well, who's doing that? My point is the lack of perspective as in the RCC getting the heat and not other denominations. Maybe the problem is that some of these offenders may be those in charge or have similar transgressions. In fact I know that was the case with a particular Cardinal—I won't say who.

They should have been arrested and put in jail and if it had been my child and I was able to get to them before the police I would have been in jail also. As I said the history of the church has shown more concern for protecting the reputation of the church and the priests than the victims. Often these predators were reshuffled and placed at another church where they continued the abuse.

I grew up Irish Catholic and some of the most decent God fearing people I know are Catholic. This is in no way an attack on Christianity or Christians. I grew up with and know several that would give you the shirt off their back and would help a total stranger in need.

I added the statement about it being asinine for someone to be outraged because people are skeptical because a poster went batshit crazy and directed a profanity laced attack on me because I stated the reforms are a crock of shit. They are because they had to be forced upon the church after several decades of it blatantly ignoring the problem. Blame it on management or whatever they have a long way to go to gain creditability. There was another cover up just last month. If this was an isolated instance that would be one thing, it is not it is a pattern dating back to the 50s or before~

listopencil
06-07-2011, 02:33 PM
There is such a thing as Evangelical atheists and imposing atheism in the schools too.

No, actually there isn't, and that is probably one of the dumbest things you have ever posted. Keeping religious teachings out of school has nothing to do with Atheism.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 02:36 PM
They should have been arrested and put in jail and if it had been my child and I was able to get to them before the police I would have been in jail also. As I said the history of the church has shown more concern for protecting the reputation of the church and the priests than the victims. Often these predators were reshuffled and placed at another church where they continued the abuse.

I grew up Irish Catholic and some of the most decent God fearing people I know are Catholic. This is in no way an attack on Christianity or Christians. I grew up with and know several that would give you the shirt off their back and would help a total stranger in need.

I added the statement about it being asinine for someone to be outraged because people are skeptical because a poster went batshit crazy and directed a profanity laced attack on me because I stated the reforms are a crock of shit. They are because they had to be forced upon the church after several decades of it blatantly ignoring the problem. Blame it on management or whatever they have a long way to go to gain creditability. There was another cover up just last month. If this was an isolated instance that would be one thing, it is not it is a pattern dating back to the 50s or before~
Maybe the reforms are a crock, but that's because this affliction cannot be cured. Churches are orientated to forgiving sinners and trying to transform them. However, pedophiles repeat their offenses, whether they go to jail or not. When they get out they just do it again. The state isn't going to change them. Perhaps, they should be sent to a special type of place where they are out of circulation from society after they do their time for this reason. Other than that, this has been debated here many times and I didn't really want to get into the same old debate.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 02:42 PM
No, actually there isn't, and that is probably one of the dumbest things you have ever posted. Keeping religious teachings out of school has nothing to do with Atheism.

Not to some atheists. Especially the ones that try to use the long arm of the Federal govt to restrain states from governing in this area. The Federal Congress is to pass "no law" pertaining to an establishment of religion. That's what it says.

Heh, all you got is calling people's positions dumb or that they're a douchebag. You get so riled up when it comes to religion.

RNR
06-07-2011, 02:43 PM
Maybe the reforms are a crock, but that's because this affliction cannot be cured. Churches are orientated to forgiving sinners and trying to transform them. However, audiophiles repeat their offences, whether they go to jail or not. When they get out they just do it again. The state isn't going to change them. Perhaps, they should be sent to a special type of place where they are out of circulation from society after they do their time for this reason. Other than that, this has been debated here many times and I didn't really want to get into the same old debate.

They could have been jailed and removed from ministry~

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 02:48 PM
Maybe the reforms are a crock, but that's because this affliction cannot be cured. Churches are orientated to forgiving sinners and trying to transform them. However, audiophiles repeat their offenses, whether they go to jail or not. When they get out they just do it again. The state isn't going to change them. Perhaps, they should be sent to a special type of place where they are out of circulation from society after they do their time for this reason. Other than that, this has been debated here many times and I didn't really want to get into the same old debate.

The special type of place you refer to is called jail.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 02:49 PM
The special type of place you refer to is called jail.

I was talkin' after they do their time in jail. They do get out ya' know.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 02:51 PM
They could have been jailed and removed from ministry~

I'm fine with the idea of prisons without bars so long as they are removed from dealing with the public ever again. In the old days the RCC used to do that by putting them in remote monasteries. I could support that either as a substitute and/or after their time in jail.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 02:58 PM
I was talkin' after they do their time in jail. They do get out ya' know.

Unfortunately, yes. It would be better if they didn't.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 02:59 PM
Unfortunately, yes. It would be better if they didn't.

Unfortunately, they didn't murder anyone so life does not fit the crime. I think something else is in order so the public is protected but they have some semblence of a life.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Not to some atheists. Especially the ones that try to use the long arm of the Federal govt to restrain states from governing in this area. The Federal Congress is to pass "no law" pertaining to an establishment of religion. That's what it says.

Heh, all you got is calling people's positions dumb or that they're a douchebag. You get so riled up when it comes to religion.

Your arguments on this make baby Jesus cry. :deevee:

I hope Christians like you keep all this majority rules crap in mind on the day when atheists or Muslims outnumber you in this country and you really find out what it's like to be marginalized.

Amnorix
06-07-2011, 03:00 PM
It's ironic the amount of effort some people put into arguing against something they don't believe in in the first place.


It often looks like penis envy.

How much effort did we put into arguing against the folks that claimed 9/11 was some kind of inside job?

Just sayin'...

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately, they didn't murder anyone so life does not fit the crime. I think something else is in order so the public is protected but they have some semblence of a life.

Sorry, the act of molesting a child is heinous enough that one's freedom should be sacrificed for life. Criminals pay a "debt to society"...and this is a debt that cannot be repaid.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 03:03 PM
Your arguments on this make baby Jesus cry. :deevee:

I hope Christians like you keep all this majority rules crap in mind on the day when atheists or Muslims outnumber you in this country and you really find out what it's like to be marginalized.

I'm not a Christian. But I am a Constitutionalist in the originalist camp. Ya' know when some of the states had official state churches not all of which were not disestablished until the end of the 19th century.

If you're a libertarian, the answer to your problem is to take the state out of education. Let a variety of schools flourish instead with some being secular with multi religions and some being religious. Heck, a state could even do that if they wanted under the Constitution.

Your arguments make Madison cry.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 03:05 PM
Sorry, the act of molesting a child is heinous enough that one's freedom should be sacrificed for life. Criminals pay a "debt to society"...and this is a debt that cannot be repaid.
That's not the law. I don't think it should be either.

Simplex3
06-07-2011, 03:06 PM
If you take the government out of schools, which I'm all for, then there's no fight to be had. But there are big federal dollars, provided by Congress, in public schools. As long as that's the case the religion needs to be out.

go bowe
06-07-2011, 03:07 PM
I'm not a Christian. But I am a Constitutionalist in the originalist camp. Ya' know when some of the states had official state churches not all of which were not disestablished until the end of the 19th century.

If you're a libertarian, the answer to your problem is to take the state out of education. Let a variety of schools flourish instead with some being secular with multi religions and some being religious. Heck, a state could even do that if they wanted under the Constitution.

Your arguments make Madison cry.

yeah, those parochial schools should get busy being religious...

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 03:07 PM
That's not the law. I don't think it should be either.

So how many children's lives should a molester be allowed to ruin before he is locked up for life? Two? Three? Since it cannot be cured, and the likelihood of repeat offense is as high as you say, doesn't a life sentence the best solution to protect the public's children?

Amnorix
06-07-2011, 03:07 PM
I think we Christians sometimes fail to realize: it ain't our job to make our religion intellectually savvy, scientifically sound, politically correct, etc. Heck, it ain't even our job to actually convince people what we say is true. It's simply our job to speak what we believe and give a reason for our hope, and what happens happens (1 Corinthians 3:5-9, 1 Peter 3:15).


Let's face it, the different Christian sects agree on VERY little beyond Christ being the son of God. Unitarians and Catholics sure as heck don't agree on all that much.

Christians (Catholics, mostly) spent centuries converting the heathens by any and all means they could find. The persecuted (Roman era) became the persecutors in their holy zeal and righteousness.

Even in early America, those who had fled England for religious freedom then turned into carbon copies of their persecutors.

Obviously, those sins are (mostly) in the dim past, and just as we can't go on excoriating Americans for the sins of slavery, we can't endlessly harp on what happened in the Middle Ages and hold that against Christians here in the 21st century. But the point remains that for much of its history, Christians had a very different view of the one you espouse here.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 03:10 PM
He's fucking DEAD, just like Hamilton...

I was just thinking the same thing LMAO

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 03:11 PM
If you take the government out of schools, which I'm all for, then there's no fight to be had. But there are big federal dollars, provided by Congress, in public schools. As long as that's the case the religion needs to be out.

The federal dollars is only about 7%. The problem with this is that the Feds bypass the states by going directly to the local communities in violation of the Constitution. The funds get used to control. This is where a lot of the experimental BS a that is wrecking the schools enters in. However, the schools always want the money, so they comply.

There is absolutely no authority given to the Feds to be involved in education and that needs to end. It's creeping centralization of education which is socialist. However, I will add, that the Federal govt during the first congress, or around then, did give some aid to a religious group. Apparently, not all the Founders had a problem with that.

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 03:12 PM
I was just thinking the same thing LMAO

So isn't the Baby Jesus. But I don't see you saying anything to Simplex who used that first. If you saw what I was responding to there, in jest, it was to Simplex saying I made the "Baby Jesus cry." Get it now?

BucEyedPea
06-07-2011, 03:13 PM
So how many children's lives should a molester be allowed to ruin before he is locked up for life? Two? Three? Since it cannot be cured, and the likelihood of repeat offense is as high as you say, doesn't a life sentence the best solution to protect the public's children?

That's my opinion. You have yours.

mnchiefsguy
06-07-2011, 03:13 PM
So isn't the Baby Jesus. But I don't see you saying anything to Simplex who used that first. If you saw what I was responding to there, in jest, it was to Simplex saying I made the "Baby Jesus cry." Get it now?

Jesus is alive. :thumb: