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HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 05:01 PM
This is pathetic.

Report: Students don't know much about US history
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO, Associated Press – 1 day ago

U.S. students don't know much about American history.

Just 13 percent of high school seniors who took the 2010 National Assessment of Educational Progress, called the Nation's Report Card, showed a solid grasp of the subject. Results released Tuesday showed the two other grades didn't perform much better, with just 22 percent of fourth-grade students and 18 percent of eighth-graders demonstrating proficiency.

The test quizzed students on topics including colonization, the American Revolution and the Civil War, and the contemporary United States. For example, one question asked fourth-graders to name an important result of the U.S. building canals in the 1800s. Only 44 percent knew that it was increased trade among states.

"The history scores released today show that student performance is still too low," Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a statement. "These results tell us that, as a country, we are failing to provide children with a high-quality, well-rounded education."
Education experts say a heavy focus on reading and math under the federal No Child Left Behind law in the last decade has led to lagging performance in other subjects such as history and science.

"We need to make sure other subjects like history, science and the arts are not forgotten in our pursuit of the basic skills," said Diane Ravitch, a research professor at New York University and former U.S. assistant education secretary.

Of the seven subjects on the national test, students performed the worst in U.S. history. Officials with the National Assessment Governing board, which oversees the tests, say the results aren't comparable to the other tests because different students take each exam in different years.

The scores on the history test did not vary remarkably from years past; in 1994, for example, 19 percent of fourth-grade students scored proficient or better in U.S. history.
More than 7,000 fourth-grade students, 11,000 eighth graders and 12,000 high school seniors from a nationally representative sample took the test last year.

To be considered proficient, they had to get certain scores out of 500. For fourth-graders, the score was 243. Eighth-graders needed 294, and 12th graders had to get a 325.

Judy Brodigan, who was head of the elementary social studies curriculum for the Lewisville, Texas, school district for a decade, said history and social studies classes aren't as much of a priority for school districts as math and reading. She noted that many states only test history and social studies starting in middle school, which means elementary school students don't get the background they need in the subject.

"When the foundation isn't built in elementary school, these students are coming to middle school lacking crucial skills," Brodigan said. "What it means is that in what is becoming a more and more global society, American students are more and more at a disadvantage."
Educators said history is critical to students learning how to become better citizens and understanding how the country's political and cultural systems work. Students need to not only recognize leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln, but also understand why they were important to the development of the country.

"Overall the quality and success of our lives can only be enhanced by a study of our roots," said Steven Paine, former state schools superintendent for West Virginia. "If you don't know your past, you will not have a future."

blaise
06-15-2011, 05:08 PM
I think the fact that most think the word, "you" is actually spelled, "u" is a bigger problem.

Brock
06-15-2011, 05:09 PM
I think the fact that most think the word, "you" is actually spelled, "u" is a bigger problem.

don b hatin on ppl

tmh
06-15-2011, 06:51 PM
no better reason for cutting the dept of education. might as well send billions in cash to space and dump it. end result is same.

ClevelandBronco
06-15-2011, 06:59 PM
I'd like to get my hands on a copy of that test.

LiveSteam
06-15-2011, 07:05 PM
Im smarter than a fifth grader I think.
























































Thunk it threw. Am not :-(

Simplex3
06-15-2011, 07:09 PM
Most of those kids were probably taught that the important result of the U.S. building canals in the 1800s was oppressing dark skinned people.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Like adults have any sense of history...

If we did, we wouldn't be out trying to nationbuild in the middle east.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:15 PM
And some will say its Bush's fault.



Dammit George.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 07:25 PM
And some will say its Bush's fault.



Dammit George.

Actually, it's really just a side effect of being human. By and large, we rarely learn from the mistakes others have made in the past. Hence why history has a tendency to repeat itself.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:29 PM
Actually, it's really just a side effect of being human. By and large, we rarely learn from the mistakes others have made in the past. Hence why history has a tendency to repeat itself.

Direct effect of the incompetence of History Teachers, revisionist history supported by educators, and the incredible failure of more and more money flowing into education with no positive result. A national shame.

banyon
06-15-2011, 07:33 PM
I don't even remember having a history class before 7th grade. We had some pretty general "Social Studies" curriculum and learned basic history like Columbus, the basic facts of WWII and the Civil War, Basic Geography, basic government, but to ask 4th graders about canal building in the early nineteenth century doesn't seem like a very big priority IMO.

I've seen many studies and performance results that were more fundamentally disturbing than this, so this seems like a pretty irrelevant example.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:37 PM
Wow. Irrelevant? A test repeated since 1994? Relevant to the US Secty of Education? And you dismiss it?

Social Studies is where history is taught in grade school, been that way since the 50's.

ClevelandBronco
06-15-2011, 07:40 PM
For example, one question asked fourth-graders to name an important result of the U.S. building canals in the 1800s. Only 44 percent knew that it was increased trade among states....

That's not bad, considering that only 58 percent knew what both a state and a canal are.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:42 PM
The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) is the largest nationally representative and continuing assessment of what America's students know and can do in various subject areas.......

Irrelevant....and a Government agency at that....http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/

Jaric
06-15-2011, 07:44 PM
Direct effect of the incompetence of History Teachers, revisionist history supported by educators, and the incredible failure of more and more money flowing into education with no positive result. A national shame.

I was actually referring to humanity in general. This is not a recent phenomenon.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:45 PM
I was actually referring to humanity in general. This is not a recent phenomenon.

Well humanity sucks in general.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 07:47 PM
Well humanity sucks in general.

Oh it's not all bad. I mean, we rarely have to worry about getting eaten anywhere.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Oh it's not all bad. I mean, we rarely have to worry about getting eaten anywhere.

Lessn you live where Lions, Tigers, Grizzly bears, Polar Bears....wait do we still have Polar Bears?

Plus there are those alien probes. HAARP, Bilderburgs, Masons, or something.

Dave Lane
06-15-2011, 08:04 PM
And yet I'll wager they would still curb stomp almost everyone in this forum. The lack of historical perspective and knowledge in this forum maybe unprecedented in the annals of history.

stevieray
06-15-2011, 08:17 PM
And yet I'll wager they would still curb stomp almost everyone in this forum.

:rolleyes:

ya, cause that's right up there with a productive future.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 08:22 PM
Two things:
1) Social studies has been de-emphasized for a variety of reasons. We're in a test-centric, standards-based time with education. Social studies (and the standards for it) is easily politicized (just see the varying interpretations of history that play out on this forum). As such, no Dept. of Education wants to touch those standards or make a test for those standards with a 10 foot pole. As a result, there's not a lot of emphasis and accountability on it.

2) I'm completely amazed at how culturally illiterate our kids are. Try teaching allusion to students when they don't realize that an apple (in literature, image, advertising) has connotations of the Garden of Eden because they have no freaking clue about the story of the Garden of Eden. Or try teaching them the cultural significance of fire when they have no freaking clue of the myth of Prometheus. Part of that is a result of our increasing ethnic diversity (Asian kids aren't raised on Anglo-Saxon mythology), but the result is just a general watering down of common cultural background.

That being said, my school has a badass social studies department of which I'm very proud. I can see how other, struggling, schools might end up with weak departments because they're really focusing on the testable disciplines.

Dave Lane
06-15-2011, 08:29 PM
Actually I'm happy number 2 is not taught. Myths are history but not real history. Better for an advanced philosophy class than young impressional minds

Backwards Masking
06-15-2011, 08:29 PM
Awhile back it was all about giving all of 'em a good Head Start. But we lowered that standard to making sure no child gets Left Behind. There's a drop off there.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 08:39 PM
Actually I'm happy number 2 is not taught. Myths are history but not real history. Better for an advanced philosophy class than young impressional minds

That's ridiculous. You can't teach a culture's literature without an understanding of mythology and cultural myths. The irony is that Christians flip the **** out when you start talking about "the Eden myth." So you, an athiest, are also bitching about it. And the Christians are bitching about it as well. No wonder these kids are dumb little ****ers. The adults around them, on both sides, are morons.

SNR
06-15-2011, 08:43 PM
Actually I'm happy number 2 is not taught. Myths are history but not real history. Better for an advanced philosophy class than young impressional mindsI know what you mean. We really need to teach our young impressional minds that impressional isn't a word.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 08:44 PM
I've poured myself another drink and calmed down. I'll try to give a more reasonable response to Dave.

Dave, your point illustrates the exact problem with teaching the humanities. The "discipline" is a political football that people kick around. Liberals want it taught one way. Conservatives want it taught another way. No one can just step back and let the teachers ****ing teach. The kids won't be ruined if a conservative Christian teaches them some biblical version of history or if some Marxist, godless liberal teaches his version. They'll get a better education if the teacher is passionate (but fair and open) about what s/he is teaching than if s/he is just teaching some watered-down pansy curriculum that's inoffensive pablum for the masses.

Of course, tomorrow I might give you a different response... that's how I feel right now.

CrazyPhuD
06-15-2011, 08:48 PM
Bah why is anyone surprised....half the kids were born in mexico anyway!........I keed I keed!

blaise
06-15-2011, 09:03 PM
I bet when most school kids see the Dodge commercial that says, "Imported from Detroit" they think Detroit is actually another country.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 09:05 PM
I bet when most school kids see the Dodge commercial that says, "Imported from Detroit" they think Detroit is actually another country.

Ive been to Detroit. It is.

East St Louis and Detroit.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 09:10 PM
Actually I'm happy number 2 is not taught. Myths are history but not real history. Better for an advanced philosophy class than young impressional minds

You would try to teach children about the ancient Greeks without teaching them about the ancient Greek Gods and their myths?

So that means no Iliad or Odyssey then.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 09:11 PM
I bet when most school kids see the Dodge commercial that says, "Imported from Detroit" they think Detroit is actually another country.

Only the ones who've been there.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 09:11 PM
You would try to teach children about the ancient Greeks without teaching them about the ancient Greek Gods and their myths?

So that means no Iliad or Odyssey then.


Most schools teach the Odyssey in 9th grade English.

Jaric
06-15-2011, 09:13 PM
Most schools teach the Odyssey in 9th grade English.
That's a far sight from "Advanced philosophy class." I didn't see that offered until I went to college.

teedubya
06-15-2011, 09:18 PM
The US is already ranked like #33 overall for education.

http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html

and the average IQ of a US citizen is 98.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/national_iq_scores_country_ranks.html

The best days of the US are ahead of us!!!! LMAO

Discuss Thrower
06-15-2011, 09:32 PM
I think honestly there's no point trying to teach social studies to kids in elementary or middle school. It's too easily slanted from either publisher or teacher side.

When it comes to high school I think there could be a problem with the fact that schools often stash athletic coaches in the position because of its "ease" in teaching the subject by simply assigning readings and handing out tests, where in reality it should be taught by more dedicated professionals who make students realize there's more to history and social studies in examining context and applying critical thinking.

Though I also feel that American culture in general doesn't stress "education" from an early age by tainting the perception of school along with making it more of a vertical rather than lateral process.

teedubya
06-15-2011, 09:34 PM
I remember learning about the Revolutionary War starting in 3rd grade... and learning about it nearly every fucking year.

Our education system is a joke. It's all about the "Standardized" tests. Making sure you are the same as everyone else.

HonestChieffan
06-15-2011, 09:34 PM
That's a far sight from "Advanced philosophy class." I didn't see that offered until I went to college.

Been a major part of our local 9th grade English for a long time. They do Romeo and Juliet as well

NewChief
06-15-2011, 09:37 PM
When it comes to high school I think there could be a problem with the fact that schools often stash athletic coaches in the position because of its "ease" in teaching the subject by simply assigning readings and handing out tests, where in reality it should be taught by more dedicated professionals who make students realize there's more to history and social studies in examining context and applying critical thinking.


ROFL Clearly posted by a man who has some first hand experience with the hiring process. We always laugh at how quickly our athletic positions get filled when a coach retires or moves on, but how it takes a freaking act of congress, when a full time teacher retires or moves on. They'll create ****ing positions to ensure a coach gets hired. But yeah, coaches tend to end up teaching a bunch of history or health classes to the detirment of what should be a vital department.

Yes...we do in fact have a huge interest in underwater basket weaving among our student body. We'll open up 4 sections tomorrow for Coach Vermeil. Meanwhile, English teachers... we won't be able to hire another one of your... so you'll have 30 students a piece in your classes this year and need to teach 3 different courses each. We're all about education (and underwater basket weaving) around here!

Jaric
06-15-2011, 09:39 PM
Been a major part of our local 9th grade English for a long time. They do Romeo and Juliet as well

Oh no, we read it too (both of them actually. And I think Julius Caesar in there somewhere)

Greek and Roman culture is the foundation that modern western civilization was built on. I can't fathom trying to teach History without including them, and a huge part of that are their Gods and Myths. I honestly cannot see how any reasonable person would object to teaching kids about that.

It's not like some school teacher is going to try to indoctrinate kids into becoming Zeus worshipers.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 09:42 PM
Oh no, we read it too (both of them actually. And I think Julius Caesar in there somewhere)

Greek and Roman culture is the foundation that modern western civilization was built on. I can't fathom trying to teach History without including them, and a huge part of that are their Gods and Myths. I honestly cannot see how any reasonable person would object to teaching kids about that.

It's not like some school teacher is going to try to indoctrinate kids into becoming Zeus worshipers.

I recently wrote a blog post (yes I blog about dorky shit like education) about the importance of D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths (http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943) in setting me on the path to being the smart son of a bitch that I am today. Seriously, I was poring over this thing when I was in 3rd grade, and it put me way, way ahead of the curve when it came to the humanities.

Discuss Thrower
06-15-2011, 09:46 PM
ROFL Clearly posted by a man who has some first hand experience with the hiring process. We always laugh at how quickly our athletic positions get filled when a coach retires or moves on, but how it takes a freaking act of congress, when a full time teacher retires or moves on. They'll create ****ing positions to ensure a coach gets hired.

Yes...we do in fact have a huge interest in underwater basket weaving among our student body. We'll open up 4 sections tomorrow for Coach Vermeil. Meanwhile, English teachers... we won't be able to hire another one of your... so you'll have 30 students a piece in your classes this year and need to teach 3 different courses each. We're all about education (and underwater basket weaving) around here!

Oddly enough when I was in high school the coach who seemed capable was tossed in favor of the teacher who insisted on the existence of the "Iraqi" tribe of Indians and how Columbus was not sent on behalf of Spain on his voyage of discovery. Upon further reflection I think the reason why she got tossed was because he only replaced her while she was out for maternity leave. Really, the thing I detested the most from said teacher was the, in my opinion, effort to politicize the deaths of individual soldiers in Iraq by having us write up a brief synopsis of an already brief synopsis of any KIA soldier every quarter as they appeared on TV newscasts or newspaper. If you as a teacher oppose the war, fine, I don't care. But if you want to make a point to try and get students to think about the consequences of war then find a better way than trivializing the lives of people said students have never met.

Discuss Thrower
06-15-2011, 09:52 PM
Oh no, we read it too (both of them actually. And I think Julius Caesar in there somewhere)

Greek and Roman culture is the foundation that modern western civilization was built on. I can't fathom trying to teach History without including them, and a huge part of that are their Gods and Myths. I honestly cannot see how any reasonable person would object to teaching kids about that.

It's not like some school teacher is going to try to indoctrinate kids into becoming Zeus worshipers.

The problem lies in the fact that from a literature perspective, the importance Greco-Roman mythology has on Western concepts is fundamentally the same as Judeo-Christian religious history, thus allowing for the logic that if Greek gods and goddesses were once accepted as fact and now thought of as purely myth, then the same applies for Old Testament figures / Jesus.

notorious
06-15-2011, 09:55 PM
My H.S. History teacher was horrible.


My College History teacher was amazing. I had no idea what I was missing out on.

Dave Lane
06-15-2011, 09:57 PM
Chill dude it's just my opinion not a law or anything. I'd prefer a course in general religious mythology as a separate high school course where all belief systems can be taught to non impressional minds :thumb: :p

I've poured myself another drink and calmed down. I'll try to give a more reasonable response to Dave.

Dave, your point illustrates the exact problem with teaching the humanities. The "discipline" is a political football that people kick around. Liberals want it taught one way. Conservatives want it taught another way. No one can just step back and let the teachers ****ing teach. The kids won't be ruined if a conservative Christian teaches them some biblical version of history or if some Marxist, godless liberal teaches his version. They'll get a better education if the teacher is passionate (but fair and open) about what s/he is teaching than if s/he is just teaching some watered-down pansy curriculum that's inoffensive pablum for the masses.

Of course, tomorrow I might give you a different response... that's how I feel right now.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 10:00 PM
My H.S. History teacher was horrible.


My College History teacher was amazing. I had no idea what I was missing out on.

In another thread, some conservative said he named one of his kids after a Marxist professor he had in college. That's partially what inspired my rant about it doesn't matter what perspective the professor has, as long as he's passionate. That being said, I think that GOOD educators are able to show their students a multiplicity of viewpoints. That, to me, is the essence of education: to show students that there are multiple perspectives on any given issue and provide them with the tools to make up their own mind. Of course, the problem is that our politically dogmatic (both liberal and conservative) don't want us to teach that there's more than one way to view a situation.

notorious
06-15-2011, 10:04 PM
In another thread, some conservative said he named one of his kids after a Marxist professor he had in college. That's partially what inspired my rant about it doesn't matter what perspective the professor has, as long as he's passionate. That being said, I think that GOOD educators are able to show their students a multiplicity of viewpoints. That, to me, is the essence of education: to show students that there are multiple perspectives on any given issue and provide them with the tools to make up their own mind. Of course, the problem is that our politically dogmatic (both liberal and conservative) don't want us to teach that there's more than one way to view a situation.

He was very passionate. I went into class figuring I would have to teach myself the material (again), but within the first 5 minutes he had me 100% commited to his lectures.

I never understood why he was teaching history at a flight university when he had so much talent.

Jenson71
06-15-2011, 10:24 PM
Judy Brodigan, who was head of the elementary social studies curriculum for the Lewisville, Texas, school district for a decade, said history and social studies classes aren't as much of a priority for school districts as math and reading. She noted that many states only test history and social studies starting in middle school, which means elementary school students don't get the background they need in the subject.

It seems to me that you could design a curriculum that both stresses reading and history. Couldn't you have students read history?

Pitt Gorilla
06-15-2011, 10:35 PM
Two things:
1) Social studies has been de-emphasized for a variety of reasons. We're in a test-centric, standards-based time with education. Social studies (and the standards for it) is easily politicized (just see the varying interpretations of history that play out on this forum). As such, no Dept. of Education wants to touch those standards or make a test for those standards with a 10 foot pole. As a result, there's not a lot of emphasis and accountability on it.

2) I'm completely amazed at how culturally illiterate our kids are. Try teaching allusion to students when they don't realize that an apple (in literature, image, advertising) has connotations of the Garden of Eden because they have no freaking clue about the story of the Garden of Eden. Or try teaching them the cultural significance of fire when they have no freaking clue of the myth of Prometheus. Part of that is a result of our increasing ethnic diversity (Asian kids aren't raised on Anglo-Saxon mythology), but the result is just a general watering down of common cultural background.

That being said, my school has a badass social studies department of which I'm very proud. I can see how other, struggling, schools might end up with weak departments because they're really focusing on the testable disciplines.Literacy, math, and then science as a distant third. Not much else matters in today's NCLB-driven paradigm.

NewChief
06-15-2011, 10:41 PM
It seems to me that you could design a curriculum that both stresses reading and history. Couldn't you have students read history?

That's actually an increasing emphasis in the Common Core literacy standards. Over 50% of student reading should be non-fiction.

Dallas Chief
06-15-2011, 11:10 PM
I've poured myself another drink and calmed down. I'll try to give a more reasonable response to Dave.

Dave, your point illustrates the exact problem with teaching the humanities. The "discipline" is a political football that people kick around. Liberals want it taught one way. Conservatives want it taught another way. No one can just step back and let the teachers ****ing teach. The kids won't be ruined if a conservative Christian teaches them some biblical version of history or if some Marxist, godless liberal teaches his version. They'll get a better education if the teacher is passionate (but fair and open) about what s/he is teaching than if s/he is just teaching some watered-down pansy curriculum that's inoffensive pablum for the masses.

Of course, tomorrow I might give you a different response... that's how I feel right now.

:clap::clap::clap:

Are you a public school teacher? If so, I may be moving to your neck of the woods in the not so distant future. Hopefully one of my kids will have you as a teacher. Good stuff here brother...:thumb:

Jenson71
06-15-2011, 11:29 PM
Direct effect of the incompetence of History Teachers, revisionist history supported by educators, and the incredible failure of more and more money flowing into education with no positive result. A national shame.

What makes history teachers incompetent, in your opinion? Do you think they don't know the material, or they don't know how to teach the material? And what has led you to this opinion?

NewChief
06-15-2011, 11:34 PM
:clap::clap::clap:

Are you a public school teacher? If so, I may be moving to your neck of the woods in the not so distant future. Hopefully one of my kids will have you as a teacher. Good stuff here brother...:thumb:

I am. Let me know if you move this way, and I'll be happy to help you out in getting settled in any way I can (real estate, financing, location, sight seeing, food, schools, etc...). Take care!

HolyHandgernade
06-16-2011, 09:30 AM
The emphasis in public school is two fold: the testing culture brought on by the NCLB Act and the emphasis on Math and Science. With the world becoming more complex and computer driven, humanities usually take a beating. I don't remember much social studies being taught at all in my son's 4th grade. Maybe some very general geography. Fifth grade was an introduction into State history and Sixth grade went into general ancient cultures (Egypt, China, Mesopotamia, Greek and Roman). Much of their Social Studies was done in conjunction with art projects because Art is no longer taught in most schools. For example, my son did a project that had to show change between ancient and modern Egypt so he made a Great Pyramid complex, one as the valley appeared before the desert overtook it and as it appears today.

I don't think they really get into American History with the Revolutionary War and Civil War until 7th grade with general civics in 8th grade. Seems like it is a bit of a sensationalistic article complaining about the aptitude of 4th graders, but as a history buff, I am disappointed about the de-emphasizing of history taught in schools. Budget constraints and testing demands only fit the humanities in where they can.

Jaric
06-16-2011, 09:31 AM
It seems to me that you could design a curriculum that both stresses reading and history. Couldn't you have students read history?

Unpossible. That might encourage critical thinking.

BucEyedPea
06-16-2011, 11:51 AM
It seems to me that you could design a curriculum that both stresses reading and history. Couldn't you have students read history?

For once, in recent history, I agree with you.

My kid's previous school, from age 6 to before HS, before any history courses, incorporated extensive reading from fiction and non-fiction much of which included history and biographies of historical figures in the sciences, literary and political arenas. Many kids who transferred to public schools even by Middle-School as well as Junior High already knew more history than the public schools here. This includes some that had specific history courses. I am a big believer in learning other subjects by using extensive reading ( as in quantity not just quality) which increases their ability to read at the same time.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2011, 12:24 PM
Direct effect of the incompetence of History Teachers, revisionist history supported by educators, and the incredible failure of more and more money flowing into education with no positive result. A national shame.

I'll say this - for every bad history teacher you get, you also have a good one.

I've seen no greater variance between your good and bad teachers than I have in history. They're either absolutely stellar or they're complete dogshit.

Math, english, science...I've seen mediocre teachers in all of the disciplines. In history, however, I've never had just a 'meh' professor.

HonestChieffan
06-16-2011, 12:44 PM
I'll say this - for every bad history teacher you get, you also have a good one.

I've seen no greater variance between your good and bad teachers than I have in history. They're either absolutely stellar or they're complete dogshit.

Math, english, science...I've seen mediocre teachers in all of the disciplines. In history, however, I've never had just a 'meh' professor.



I agree. My observation is like one someone posted before...in many schools they have moved History and SS's into the hands of Coaches. They likely will not have a true history degree but some dumbed down teaching/education degree with an emphasis in SS's.

If you examine what a BA in Education is today, you can see we have wholly unprepared teachers. Far too much time spent in the mechanics of teaching and far to little time spent learning and mastering the subject they ultimately teach.

We have coaches teaching a reading and writing intensive subject like history who have no time to read papers, prepare lectures/discussion and teach the critical thinking skills the student should develop. They can't since they have sports after school and games/meets/what have you that a real teacher would not have.

Once you have a great History teacher you know that value. But far too many schools dont have them, don't care, and won't consider maybe getting rid of a sport in exchange for an upgrade in education opportunity. As well we need to remember they are required by federal law to do many things in a school that are counterproductive and reduce the schools ability to make changes and invest as they may want to.

BucEyedPea
06-16-2011, 12:45 PM
In another thread, some conservative said he named one of his kids after a Marxist professor he had in college. That's partially what inspired my rant about it doesn't matter what perspective the professor has, as long as he's passionate. That being said, I think that GOOD educators are able to show their students a multiplicity of viewpoints. That, to me, is the essence of education: to show students that there are multiple perspectives on any given issue and provide them with the tools to make up their own mind. Of course, the problem is that our politically dogmatic (both liberal and conservative) don't want us to teach that there's more than one way to view a situation.

I agree that, at least at the college level, having profs with different perspectives is a good thing. Yup, even a Marxist one I am fine with to see the think and so one can see that noxious ideas can be held by otherwise intelligent people. Also, to learn how to detect babble and see the other side's thinking. Always a good thing. I think seeing one's own ideas as a comparison helps to understand one's own ideas better. Besides, college is about learning about the world beyond high school and how you were raised.

Rausch
06-16-2011, 12:46 PM
For once, in recent history, I agree with you.

My kid's previous school, from age 6 to before HS, before any history courses, incorporated extensive reading from fiction and non-fiction much of which included history and biographies of historical figures in the sciences, literary and political arenas. Many kids who transferred to public schools even by Middle-School as well as Junior High already knew more history than the public schools here. This includes some that had specific history courses. I am a big believer in learning other subjects by using extensive reading ( as in quantity not just quality) which increases their ability to read at the same time.

Back when I was an aide (3-4 YEARS ago) the 5th/6th grade WOULD NOT teach about slavery.

"When blacks were brought over on ships."

That was pretty much the extent of it.

Um, WHUT?

So WWII was a slap-fight?

European Jews suffered.....Eric Cartman?...

DJ's left nut
06-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Back when I was an aide (3-4 YEARS ago) the 5th/6th grade WOULD NOT teach about slavery.

"When blacks were brought over on ships."

That was pretty much the extent of it.

Um, WHUT?

So WWII was a slap-fight?

European Jews suffered.....Eric Cartman?...

I posted this somewhere in the Bachmann thread, but as a JR in highschool, my American History professor spent 1 day....1 day...on the American Revolution and the events leading up to it. She spent a 2nd day on the Continental Congress and the ultimate formation of the Union. That was it.

She argued back and forth with me I tried to convince her that Fort Knox was named for Henry Knox; she swore it was too old to be named for a Revolutionary war figure (she had that force-fed to her, she had no idea who Knox was or his role during/after the war). She completely botched the Civil War (I learned far more by reading Cry Havoc!).

But she spent an entire week having us prepare colonial clothing catalogs. Yes - my American History class as a high school junior essentially devolved into Kindergarten where we were graded on our ability to color between the lines.

Her justification for this gross mis-allocation of time was "I don't like wars and without them we needed to fill the curriculum." I shit you not - since she didn't like war, she simply ommitted the most critical events in shaping our nation and substituted arts and crafts.

History teachers have so much freedom to create their lesson plans that it gives them all the latitude they need to just completely !@#$ it up...

Dallas Chief
06-16-2011, 08:21 PM
I am. Let me know if you move this way, and I'll be happy to help you out in getting settled in any way I can (real estate, financing, location, sight seeing, food, schools, etc...). Take care!

Thanks man! The move is about 50/50 right now but it will definitely be a corporate relo deal if it happens. Thinking maybe the Bella Vista area but not sure yet. We can definitely get together for beer or six at Eddie Haskell's or something. I love the table top beer taps they bring out.

NewChief
06-16-2011, 08:31 PM
Thanks man! The move is about 50/50 right now but it will definitely be a corporate relo deal if it happens. Thinking maybe the Bella Vista area but not sure yet. We can definitely get together for beer or six at Eddie Haskell's or something. I love the table top beer taps they bring out.

Bella Vista is great. My mother-in-law has an awesome house on Loch Lomond, and we're up there constantly in the summer. You work for a vendor?

banyon
06-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Wow. Irrelevant? A test repeated since 1994? Relevant to the US Secty of Education? And you dismiss it?

Social Studies is where history is taught in grade school, been that way since the 50's.

I didn't say the test was irrelevant. I said the example of 19th century canal building was irrelevant. Perhaps YOU need to subject yourself to the 4th grade reading comprehension test to see how you fare with these elementary school kids.

Read it again.

NewChief
06-16-2011, 08:42 PM
I didn't say the test was irrelevant. I said the example of 19th century canal building was irrelevant. Perhaps YOU need to subject yourself to the 4th grade reading comprehension test to see how you fare with these elementary school kids.

Read it again.

ROFL

That totally reminds me of a running joke we have at school.


Since legislators are so convinced that standardized testing is an accurate measure of performance and potential, let's start administering them to legislators. Let's make it over something easy, too.... like the bills on which they vote. Just give them a basic reading comprehension and recollection test over every bill on which they vote. I wonder how they'll fare?

Jaric
06-16-2011, 08:46 PM
ROFL

That totally reminds me of a running joke we have at school.


Since legislators are so convinced that standardized testing is an accurate measure of performance and potential, let's start administering them to legislators. Let's make it over something easy, too.... like the bills on which they vote. Just give them a basic reading comprehension and recollection test over every bill on which they vote. I wonder how they'll fare?

Considering Nancy Pelosi thinks we need to pass legislation to find out what's in it, I'm guessing not very well (since the rest of them seemed to have bought that...)

HonestChieffan
06-16-2011, 09:00 PM
ROFL

That totally reminds me of a running joke we have at school.


Since legislators are so convinced that standardized testing is an accurate measure of performance and potential, let's start administering them to legislators. Let's make it over something easy, too.... like the bills on which they vote. Just give them a basic reading comprehension and recollection test over every bill on which they vote. I wonder how they'll fare?


Are legislators behind standardized testing or is the education community behind it? Even an old fart like me had to take standardized tests back in the 60s in school..i recall them as Iowa tests but that may be wrong.

As much fun as it may be to administer to other groups, it seems the issue is how do we measure how well students learn, teachers teach, and on a regular basis measure progress. Testing legislators or any other group really does not contribute to measuring education and educators.

NewChief
06-16-2011, 09:08 PM
Are legislators behind standardized testing or is the education community behind it? Even an old fart like me had to take standardized tests back in the 60s in school..i recall them as Iowa tests but that may be wrong.

As much fun as it may be to administer to other groups, it seems the issue is how do we measure how well students learn, teachers teach, and on a regular basis measure progress. Testing legislators or any other group really does not contribute to measuring education and educators.

Very few actual educators support standardized testing (of the sort implemented under NCLB). People will dismiss their dislike as trying to wriggle out of accountability, but that's honestly not it. We want to be accountable, but we also understand that education is more complicated and holistic than an easily quantifiable standardized test. I think that the legislators recognize this as well, but they want to implement -some- measure of accountability. That's well and good, to implement that as a baseline variable that you can measure. The problem is that when all the focus (of the public, of the law, of the media, etc..) is on the results of the standardized test, then that baseline variable becomes the ultimate goal. And you get the shit that you have from this study: screw social studies, it's not being tested. We've got to increase our test scores, because that's what is valued!

There's a ton to be said for formative evaluation that serves as a diagnosis of a particular student's area of weakness and allows you to drive instruction. There is very little to be said for summative evaluation that "measures" a student's knowledge at the end of the course without providing any information to help teachers deal with the students they currently have.

listopencil
06-16-2011, 09:09 PM
I've poured myself another drink and calmed down. I'll try to give a more reasonable response to Dave.

Dave, your point illustrates the exact problem with teaching the humanities. The "discipline" is a political football that people kick around. Liberals want it taught one way. Conservatives want it taught another way. No one can just step back and let the teachers ****ing teach. The kids won't be ruined if a conservative Christian teaches them some biblical version of history or if some Marxist, godless liberal teaches his version. They'll get a better education if the teacher is passionate (but fair and open) about what s/he is teaching than if s/he is just teaching some watered-down pansy curriculum that's inoffensive pablum for the masses.

Of course, tomorrow I might give you a different response... that's how I feel right now.


Actually no, I don't think it's good for mythology to be presented as History. The day one of my kids were to fail a History test because they weren't willing to give a Biblical answer...that's the day that the History teacher learns what Hell on Earth really means.

HonestChieffan
06-16-2011, 09:22 PM
Very few actual educators support standardized testing (of the sort implemented under NCLB). People will dismiss their dislike as trying to wriggle out of accountability, but that's honestly not it. We want to be accountable, but we also understand that education is more complicated and holistic than an easily quantifiable standardized test. I think that the legislators recognize this as well, but they want to implement -some- measure of accountability. That's well and good, to implement that as a baseline variable that you can measure. The problem is that when all the focus (of the public, of the law, of the media, etc..) is on the results of the standardized test, then that baseline variable becomes the ultimate goal. And you get the shit that you have from this study: screw social studies, it's not being tested. We've got to increase our test scores, because that's what is valued!

There's a ton to be said for formative evaluation that serves as a diagnosis of a particular student's area of weakness and allows you to drive instruction. There is very little to be said for summative evaluation that "measures" a student's knowledge at the end of the course without providing any information to help teachers deal with the students they currently have.

Well said. My wife is a retired high school English teacher. The issue as I see it is we have those like you or my wife who have no hesitation to be evaluated. Yet you have a ton of peers who will go to any length to discredit any attempt to measure how well they do their job and will be at their creative best explaining away their failure as teachers and administrators.

Bottom line, they make it complex to confuse issues. Education can be measured by what did the student learn...after all that is the idea, teaching kids. But when that is tried many go nuts finding ways to stop measurement because they feel threatened by measurement and accountability.

NewChief
06-16-2011, 09:28 PM
Well said. My wife is a retired high school English teacher. The issue as I see it is we have those like you or my wife who have no hesitation to be evaluated. Yet you have a ton of peers who will go to any length to discredit any attempt to measure how well they do their job and will be at their creative best explaining away their failure as teachers and administrators.

Bottom line, they make it complex to confuse issues. Education can be measured by what did the student learn...after all that is the idea, teaching kids. But when that is tried many go nuts finding ways to stop measurement because they feel threatened by measurement and accountability.

Well, you're simplifying things a little much. The fact is that it's not that easy to evaluate students or teachers in a fair way. I teach special education inclusion classes. My students core markedly lower on standardized tests than a teacher who teaches all AP courses. They're now trying to evaluate based on the growth of individual students (so if I take a kid from scoring in the lower 25% to scoring 50%, that is as much of a success as an AP teacher taking a kid who scores at 95% to score at 98%). Unfortunatley, that sort of nuanced test results is lost, and you get the crap like you saw in LA where the paper posted up individual teachers and the % of kids who passed the tests in each of their classes. So the teacher with AP, privileged students has 100% passing rate on the tests, whereas I have 25% because I teach special ed and ESL students. In the public eye, I'm a shitty teacher because I've agreed to take on the challenging students. That is a HORRIBLE disservice to the students, teachers, and education in general.

stevieray
06-16-2011, 10:29 PM
Actually no, I don't think it's good for mythology to be presented as History. The day one of my kids were to fail a History test because they weren't willing to give a Biblical answer...that's the day that the History teacher learns what Hell on Earth really means.


...interesting, I was helping my youngest study for her World History final, and was impresssed by the diversity of cultures and time periods she was required to study about.... she informed me that of all the subjects she studied, the only one her teacher felt compelled to be personal about was Chrisitianity, in the context of letting her students know she used to be Christian, but was now an atheist...I asked my daughter if she disaparaged any other belief, or if this was singled out...we had a pretty good chuckle about it.

find out what hell on Earth really means? that reads like what you rail against..forcing your belief/unbelief on others.

Jenson71
06-16-2011, 11:44 PM
Actually no, I don't think it's good for mythology to be presented as History. The day one of my kids were to fail a History test because they weren't willing to give a Biblical answer...that's the day that the History teacher learns what Hell on Earth really means.

There's a fine line to walk here. One is teaching mythology or religious doctrine as history. The other is teaching mythology or religious doctrine as part of history. As for the proper historical education in our public schools: we should eschew the former; we must not neglect the latter.

It is an incomplete history education to not understand the role of religion and myths in our civilization, but it is a falsified history education to present religious dogma as the end all of history.

I would consider it poor form, bad history, if a conservative teacher taught his students a strictly Christianized-version of history, in the sense I'm thinking (ex: "The Civil War was fought because good Christians realized that God rightly abhorred slavery, while the false-Christians held it up as in line with the New Testament") and also if a socialist teacher taught his students a strictly Marxist-version of history (ex: "After this age of bourgeoisie capitalism comes either an age of communism or barbarism" and "The Soviet Union under Lenin and Trotsky was a glowing beacon of freedom, but was trashed under the anti-Marxist Stalinist regime.").

Jenson71
06-16-2011, 11:46 PM
...interesting, I was helping my youngest study for her World History final, and was impresssed by the diversity of cultures and time periods she was required to study about.... she informed me that of all the subjects she studied, the only one her teacher felt compelled to be personal about was Chrisitianity, in the context of letting her students know she used to be Christian, but was now an atheist...I asked my daughter if she disaparaged any other belief, or if this was singled out...we had a pretty good chuckle about it.

find out what hell on Earth really means? that reads like what you rail against..forcing your belief/unbelief on others.

Letting students know that she used to be a Christian but is now an atheist is not really disparaging of Christianity. Is there more to this story?

listopencil
06-17-2011, 12:47 AM
...interesting, I was helping my youngest study for her World History final, and was impresssed by the diversity of cultures and time periods she was required to study about.... she informed me that of all the subjects she studied, the only one her teacher felt compelled to be personal about was Chrisitianity, in the context of letting her students know she used to be Christian, but was now an atheist...I asked my daughter if she disaparaged any other belief, or if this was singled out...we had a pretty good chuckle about it.

find out what hell on Earth really means? that reads like what you rail against..forcing your belief/unbelief on others.

It was inappropriate of the teacher to bring up her own religious beliefs when discussing religion as a a part of culture (which is perfectly acceptable) and I'm glad you have a good relationship with your daughter, that you two could have a talk about it.

Hell on Earth as in an angry parent showing up for a parent-teacher conference. The post I quoted referred to "a Biblical version of history". No, I won't stand for my children being subjected to a religiously based curriculum.

listopencil
06-17-2011, 12:53 AM
There's a fine line to walk here. One is teaching mythology or religious doctrine as history. The other is teaching mythology or religious doctrine as part of history. As for the proper historical education in our public schools: we should eschew the former; we must not neglect the latter.

It is an incomplete history education to not understand the role of religion and myths in our civilization, but it is a falsified history education to present religious dogma as the end all of history.

I would consider it poor form, bad history, if a conservative teacher taught his students a strictly Christianized-version of history, in the sense I'm thinking (ex: "The Civil War was fought because good Christians realized that God rightly abhorred slavery, while the false-Christians held it up as in line with the New Testament") and also if a socialist teacher taught his students a strictly Marxist-version of history (ex: "After this age of bourgeoisie capitalism comes either an age of communism or barbarism" and "The Soviet Union under Lenin and Trotsky was a glowing beacon of freedom, but was trashed under the anti-Marxist Stalinist regime.").

Yes, that is what I am getting at. Religion is a part of the culture of mankind. It has had an undeniable affect on the course of countless civilizations. A History teacher would be failing in their duty to remove that from classroom discussion. However, a "Biblical version of History" is absolutely unacceptable in a public school.

Dallas Chief
06-17-2011, 12:55 AM
Bella Vista is great. My mother-in-law has an awesome house on Loch Lomond, and we're up there constantly in the summer. You work for a vendor?

Why yes I do. Which part gave it away???:p

BucEyedPea
06-17-2011, 01:00 AM
Very few actual educators support standardized testing (of the sort implemented under NCLB).

What about standardized testing for college acceptance—SAT and ACTs. This wasn't used before 1945 approximately and it didn't hurt anyone.

listopencil
06-17-2011, 01:01 AM
I'll take it a step further- a "Biblical version of History" would include the story of Noah and the Great Flood. The student might be expected to answer on a test how many days and nights it rained, or how many people were on the Ark. Perhaps give the measurements of the Ark. Luckily for the teacher this isn't Biology class so no one could ask how all the pests and diseases survived with so few hosts, or how all the descendants of the people on the Ark avoided problems stemming from such a tiny gene pool.

A History class discussion would include the multiple "great flood" stories as a common thread in multiple cultures. Hopefully touching upon several, including the Biblical story, because many of the students might be familiar with it.

BucEyedPea
06-17-2011, 01:05 AM
I wish my daughter knew more about the Bible as an entering English major. Knowing it is important in analyzing literature which has Biblical allusions etc.

listopencil
06-17-2011, 01:12 AM
I wish my daughter knew more about the Bible as an entering English major. Knowing it is important in analyzing literature which has Biblical allusions etc.

Mine was given the opportunity to go to several churches (mostly Baptist but not all) for most of her life, then we would sit down and discuss certain aspects of those teachings on a week to week basis. She still has what I consider to be a troubling fascination with reincarnation, which I attribute to her immature lack of an ability to consider a universe in which she does not exist.

BucEyedPea
06-17-2011, 01:14 AM
Mine was given the opportunity to go to several churches (mostly Baptist but not all) for most of her life, then we would sit down and discuss certain aspects of those teachings on a week to week basis. She still has what I consider to be a troubling fascination with reincarnation, which I attribute to her immature lack of an ability to consider a universe in which she does not exist.

Wow! Sorry but I find that pretty intolerant since the east part of the globe embraces that. Mine has had comparative religion but it still doesn't teach the Bible not even in a way to connect with some literature. She has to research them as she goes. A friend of hers didn't even know who Jesus was at age 13.

listopencil
06-17-2011, 01:22 AM
Wow! Sorry but I find that pretty intolerant since the east part of the globe embraces that. Mine has had comparative religion but it still doesn't teach the Bible not even in a way to connect with some literature. She has to research them as she goes.


It's my opinion. I don't consider reincarnation to be reasonable. That's not to say that anyone who believes in it does so because of that immaturity I mentioned. That's simply the case with my daughter. She hasn't gone through a process of exploration and meditation, she hasn't really worked out any details about it at all. It's a feeling she has that she can't explain. I spoke with her about about it because she is strong willed enough to maintain her belief regardless of my opinion. In that discussion it became apparent to me that her belief is most likely rooted in an immature, self-centered viewpoint of the universe.

durtyrute
06-17-2011, 07:21 AM
The early education system is a joke

Jaric
06-17-2011, 07:58 AM
Actually no, I don't think it's good for mythology to be presented as History. The day one of my kids were to fail a History test because they weren't willing to give a Biblical answer...that's the day that the History teacher learns what Hell on Earth really means.

Would you mind clarifying what you mean here?

All I am talking about is including mythology when discussing an ancient culture. Not trying to teach that mythology or a religion is somehow factual, only explaining what the religion/mythology teaches so a person can have a better understanding of what was driving the people who lived in these ancient cultures.

It's very hard to study a culture and completely seperate something as important as their religous/spirital thoughts from the discussion.

This isn't some covert attempt to start trying to convert school kids to Christianty (or insert whatever religion)

Jaric
06-17-2011, 08:13 AM
Yes, that is what I am getting at. Religion is a part of the culture of mankind. It has had an undeniable affect on the course of countless civilizations. A History teacher would be failing in their duty to remove that from classroom discussion. However, a "Biblical version of History" is absolutely unacceptable in a public school.

Ok, you can ignore my last post, we're on the same page here.

stevieray
06-17-2011, 10:00 AM
It was inappropriate of the teacher to bring up her own religious beliefs when discussing religion as a a part of culture (which is perfectly acceptable) and I'm glad you have a good relationship with your daughter, that you two could have a talk about it.


ya, she's been a striaght A student since the fifth grade, and is very intelligent. Like most teenagers, she is not easily swayed and is able to discern good and bad information. (for her age)

My oldest came to us the other day and was having her doubts about the Bible. I told her that was healthy and pretty much neccessary in her walk. I believe it is imparitive to settle it in your own mind...I told her we can't force her to believe, and that her walk is hers. Can't make her love us, just like God can't make her love him.

whatever she chooses, i'm just glad we have open conversations about it, instead of each of us flying blind and leaving pertinent questions undiscussed.

listopencil
06-17-2011, 12:14 PM
ya, she's been a striaght A student since the fifth grade, and is very intelligent. Like most teenagers, she is not easily swayed and is able to discern good and bad information. (for her age)

My oldest came to us the other day and was having her doubts about the Bible. I told her that was healthy and pretty much neccessary in her walk. I believe it is imparitive to settle it in your own mind...I told her we can't force her to believe, and that her walk is hers. Can't make her love us, just like God can't make her love him.

whatever she chooses, i'm just glad we have open conversations about it, instead of each of us flying blind and leaving pertinent questions undiscussed.


Yeah, I strongly agree. Especially with the bolded part.

stevieray
06-17-2011, 12:15 PM
Yeah, I strongly agree..
hell.
frozen.
over.

:p