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HonestChieffan
06-21-2011, 02:37 PM
We are so screwed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110621/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_health_overhaul_glitch

WASHINGTON (AP) – President Barack Obama’s health care law would let several million middle-class people get nearly free insurance meant for the poor, a twist government number crunchers say they discovered only after the complex bill was signed.

The change would affect early retirees: A married couple could have an annual income of about $64,000 and still get Medicaid, said officials who make long-range cost estimates for the Health and Human Services department.

Up to 3 million more people could qualify for Medicaid in 2014 as a result of the anomaly. That’s because, in a major change from today, most of their Social Security benefits would no longer be counted as income for determining eligibility. It might be compared to allowing middle-class people to qualify for food stamps.

Medicare chief actuary Richard Foster says the situation keeps him up at night.

“I don’t generally comment on the pros or cons of policy, but that just doesn’t make sense,” Foster said during a question-and-answer session at a recent professional society meeting.

“This is a situation that got no attention at all,” added Foster. “And even now, as I raise the issue with various policymakers, people are not rushing to say … we need to do something about this.”

Bump
06-21-2011, 02:39 PM
did you know that almost all of American's who file for bankruptcy and lose everything is because of health care? Even though they had insurance?

HonestChieffan
06-21-2011, 02:43 PM
I agree, bankruptcy is too easy and a lot of slackers use the system to skate on their obligations.

Saul Good
06-21-2011, 03:09 PM
did you know that almost all of American's who file for bankruptcy and lose everything is because of health care? Even though they had insurance?

No. In fact, I know that you are full of shit.

Brock
06-21-2011, 03:12 PM
did you know that almost all of American's who file for bankruptcy and lose everything is because of health care? Even though they had insurance?

Gonna need a link on that, hoss.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2011, 03:13 PM
No. In fact, I know that you are full of shit.


Oh come on, play along.

RedNeckRaider
06-21-2011, 03:17 PM
Gonna need a link on that, hoss.

Yeah got to ask for a link on that one~

Saul Good
06-21-2011, 03:19 PM
There was a Yahoo! article written about a year ago claiming that 60 something percent of BKs are caused by medical bills and that 70% of those people had some type of health insurance. It was a bogus article, as it considered any BK that included any medical bills to be caused by medical bills. If you had a $5 medical bill and $100,000 in credit card debt, they determine that its the medical bill that caused your plight.

In other words, it was a pretty typical Yahoo! article.

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 04:12 PM
Here is a yahoo.com article from 2010 that lists Medical expenses as the #1 reason people file for bankruptcy. It does not list how they determined the primary cause--so Saul's comment about might very well be correct. I think we could all agree that a major medical situation can be a way to get to bankruptcy real quick, even with insurance, especially given that the insurance companies consistently try to figure out ways to not pay for expensive treatments.


http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/109143/top-5-reasons-why-people-go-bankrupt?mod=bb-checking_savings

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 04:14 PM
Yeah got to ask for a link on that one~

Here is another one..granted it is from the AFLAC duck, of all things, but they do site a Harvard study. This is from 2008:

http://aflac.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/medical-bills-leading-cause-of-bankruptcy-harvard-study-finds/

HonestChieffan
06-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Does Insurance/bankruptcy mean we should ignore the entire topic at hand?

vailpass
06-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Here is a yahoo.com article from 2010 that lists Medical expenses as the #1 reason people file for bankruptcy. It does not list how they determined the primary cause--so Saul's comment about might very well be correct. I think we could all agree that a major medical situation can be a way to get to bankruptcy real quick, even with insurance, especially given that the insurance companies consistently try to figure out ways to not pay for expensive treatments.


http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/109143/top-5-reasons-why-people-go-bankrupt?mod=bb-checking_savings

So could a bad week in Vegas, a nasty IRS penalty or losing a law suit.
I'ts insurance, not magicfairy dust that puts you behind a protective shield. As was mentioned, if you feel the need then purchase higher-limit policy.
BTW, doesn't obama care eliminate policy maximums making this whole thing moot? I admit to not being an obamacare expert.

HonestChieffan
06-21-2011, 04:19 PM
Or buying 2 cars, an RV, and a house in the subprime market knowing you need surgury

Bump
06-21-2011, 04:33 PM
right wing = nothing wrong at all
left wing = everything is wrong
me = the health care profit system is fucking corrupt as the vatican and oil combined.

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 04:35 PM
So could a bad week in Vegas, a nasty IRS penalty or losing a law suit.
I'ts insurance, not magicfairy dust that puts you behind a protective shield. As was mentioned, if you feel the need then purchase higher-limit policy.
BTW, doesn't obama care eliminate policy maximums making this whole thing moot? I admit to not being an obamacare expert.

While I don't disagree with this...if a person has to choose between bankruptcy and living.....and many people feel that hospitals price gouge anyway....much like the $400 hammer the army buys, the $800 the hospital charges you for an aspirin is widely believed, whether it is true or not.

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 04:35 PM
right wing = nothing wrong at all
left wing = everything is wrong
me = the health care profit system is ****ing corrupt as the vatican and oil combined.

I cannot disagree with this either.

Bump
06-21-2011, 04:36 PM
While I don't disagree with this...if a person has to choose between bankruptcy and living.....and many people feel that hospitals price gouge anyway....much like the $400 hammer the army buys, the $800 the hospital charges you for an aspirin is widely believed, whether it is true or not.

it is true, if they give you an aspirin out of the $5 bottle you buy at the store, they are going to bill you $500 for it. But there's nothing wrong with that at all!

vailpass
06-21-2011, 04:45 PM
While I don't disagree with this...if a person has to choose between bankruptcy and living.....and many people feel that hospitals price gouge anyway....much like the $400 hammer the army buys, the $800 the hospital charges you for an aspirin is widely believed, whether it is true or not.

Then the issue is cost controls at the care facility level? Or better yet cost options, so people can choose sort of like brand name vs. generic?

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 04:54 PM
Then the issue is cost controls at the care facility level? Or better yet cost options, so people can choose sort of like brand name vs. generic?

I think cost controls at the facility level are a part of the problem, yes.

vailpass
06-21-2011, 05:01 PM
I think cost controls at the facility level are a part of the problem, yes.

State run facilities can be regulated by the state. Private facilities are just that. People can choose to go to either. Fair, yes?

mnchiefsguy
06-21-2011, 05:10 PM
Look...I don't know what the answer is, but I do know this:

1. The current system has some serious flaws. Medical care costs too much.

2. Obama care is the worst thing to happen to healthcare in the history of this country.

As to the points earlier in this thread about insurance no being a magic shield...fine...then the insurance companies need to quit marketing their services as such. The way in which medical coverage is advertised is that it will provide when needed...Insurance needs to be marketed in plain language, and policies need to be written in a manner that is clear for the ordinary average American to understand. One should not have to hire a team of lawyers to figure out whether an illness is covered or not.

Bump
06-21-2011, 05:16 PM
Look...I don't know what the answer is, but I do know this:

1. The current system has some serious flaws. Medical care costs too much.

2. Obama care is the worst thing to happen to healthcare in the history of this country.

As to the points earlier in this thread about insurance no being a magic shield...fine...then the insurance companies need to quit marketing their services as such. The way in which medical coverage is advertised is that it will provide when needed...Insurance needs to be marketed in plain language, and policies need to be written in a manner that is clear for the ordinary average American to understand. One should not have to hire a team of lawyers to figure out whether an illness is covered or not.

this guy is one of the few logical users that you can find in these forums

Simplex3
06-22-2011, 08:08 AM
Medical care costs too much.

Americans treating their health insurance as a health maintenance plan is a large part of why. Nobody gets pissed off about $400 asprin as long as the bill is still being covered by their insurance.

Other problems:

1. As a society we're unwilling to turn people to the street if they can't afford care.

2. We cling to the last year/month/week of our life regardless of the financial cost or the pain we'll endure.

loochy
06-22-2011, 08:21 AM
it is true, if they give you an aspirin out of the $5 bottle you buy at the store, they are going to bill you $500 for it. But there's nothing wrong with that at all!

The thing about all of this expensive medicine and seemingly mundane stuff (like syringes, aspirin, dressings, etc) in a hospital is that you are not just paying for the item itself. Sure, there is some profit built in there, but a lot of the extra cost goes toward paying for overhead. Not only does the hospital have to pay for the medicine itself, it has to pay for things such as:

building insurance
malpractice insurance
insane utility bills
equipment and facility costs
processing and paperwork fees
employee salaries (including people you never see, such as maintenance workers, janitors, executives, etc)
paying the bills for people that come into the hospital and don't pay or can't pay

This list could go on and on and on forever. My point is that, although I'm not sure exactly how much profit margin a hospital makes, hospitals are extremely costly to run and there is more to the accounting structure than paying direct costs for the medicine.

loochy
06-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Then the issue is cost controls at the care facility level? Or better yet cost options, so people can choose sort of like brand name vs. generic?

The main cost, at least at a hospital, is not the cost of the medicine itself. See my previous post.

Otter
06-22-2011, 08:24 AM
You're a LOON if you vote for Ron Paul.

"you can see what's in the bill after we pass it"

This country deserves exactly what it gets.

mnchiefsguy
06-22-2011, 12:42 PM
The thing about all of this expensive medicine and seemingly mundane stuff (like syringes, aspirin, dressings, etc) in a hospital is that you are not just paying for the item itself. Sure, there is some profit built in there, but a lot of the extra cost goes toward paying for overhead. Not only does the hospital have to pay for the medicine itself, it has to pay for things such as:

building insurance
malpractice insurance
insane utility bills
equipment and facility costs
processing and paperwork fees
employee salaries (including people you never see, such as maintenance workers, janitors, executives, etc)
paying the bills for people that come into the hospital and don't pay or can't pay

This list could go on and on and on forever. My point is that, although I'm not sure exactly how much profit margin a hospital makes, hospitals are extremely costly to run and there is more to the accounting structure than paying direct costs for the medicine.

While the hospital does have some overhead, this does not excuse the $400 aspirin. As an example, my first child was two months premature, and spent four weeks in the NIC unit. One nurse was assigned to the unit 24/7, and there were 8-10 babies in there at all times. The hospital charged $2500 a day...just for the room. I think the room charge alone covered any overhead the hospital might have had, considered with just 8 babies in there, they are making $20,000 a day before any treatment even begins. The NIC unit had good equipment, but none of it was new, and considering the rate they were charging and the amount of babies in there, it was long ago paid for. Hospitals charge too much because they can....somewhere along the line hospitals became for profit corporations, instead of what they were originally for...a place to help sick people and be of service to the community.

Hospitals also do not charge the same rate for the same service...A person with Insurance A might only be charged $500 a day, while a person with Insurance B might be charged 1000, and a person with no insurance is charged 3000. The fact that there is a built in margin for hospitals to give certain insurance companies huge discounts on services (and if that is not the case, then the people who have Insurance B are subsiding Insurance company A by paying more) shows that they are charging too much. When the choice is life and death, or even being healthy versus losing a limb or the ability to walk, cost is not going to considered. Human nature dictates a person will do what they need to do to survive.

Health Care is worthy of a premium price, don't get me wrong, but the corporate desire to generate a profit has reached such a level that the premium price has grown to absurd proportions.

BucEyedPea
06-22-2011, 12:50 PM
No. In fact, I know that you are full of shit.

As far as I have read the numbers are high for that happening. I don't recall where I read it though. I think it was banyon who said similarly....don't recall all specifics.

Imo, a better answer would be this is the result of govt interference in health-care markets for 40 or so years as it has attempted to make it cheaper or more available resulting in healthcare that is largely corporate. So this claim of his, should be parsed as what caused that situation.

vailpass
06-22-2011, 12:50 PM
The main cost, at least at a hospital, is not the cost of the medicine itself. See my previous post.

Understood. I completely support the hospital's right to charge what they need to in order to maintain the level of service I expect.
People that question a hospital's right to charge what they need in order to remain viable have never been in an ER in Mexico.

mnchiefsguy
06-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Americans treating their health insurance as a health maintenance plan is a large part of why. Nobody gets pissed off about $400 asprin as long as the bill is still being covered by their insurance.

Other problems:

1. As a society we're unwilling to turn people to the street if they can't afford care.

2. We cling to the last year/month/week of our life regardless of the financial cost or the pain we'll endure.

Plenty of people get pissed off about the $400 aspirin. I have complained about hospital billing before, even though we had insurance, when I had a child in a hospital for a few days. While the hospital hemmed and hawed, and eventually reduce the charge slightly, there is nothing one can really do, is there? You can complain to the state attorney general I suppose, but I do not see what good that would do, given the politics involved. The insurance companies don't say anything either when I mentioned the charge to them...one would think they would be interested, but they are too busy looking for a reason to deny the treatment as opposed to asking why it costs so much.

Hydrae
06-22-2011, 12:51 PM
"you can see what's in the bill after we pass it"

This country deserves exactly what it gets.

That was from Pelosi if I am remembering right. I guess we are seeing what is in it now, huh?

mnchiefsguy
06-22-2011, 12:52 PM
That was from Pelosi if I am remembering right. I guess we are seeing what is in it now, huh?

Yeah...you think health care is expensive now, just wait till obamacare hits, and the government is on the hook for everything.

BucEyedPea
06-22-2011, 12:54 PM
If you isolate the correct cause of excessive rates in healthcare, correct it accordingly you will see some change.
There's been over 2000 mandates put on health insurance companies and they just pass on the costs for one.

I mean, why is it that plastic surgery has continued to come down in price whereas other medical procedures etc have risen? Answer: Plastic surgery is not treated as a right.

vailpass
06-22-2011, 12:54 PM
Look...I don't know what the answer is, but I do know this:

1. The current system has some serious flaws. Medical care costs too much.

2. Obama care is the worst thing to happen to healthcare in the history of this country.

As to the points earlier in this thread about insurance no being a magic shield...fine...then the insurance companies need to quit marketing their services as such. The way in which medical coverage is advertised is that it will provide when needed...Insurance needs to be marketed in plain language, and policies need to be written in a manner that is clear for the ordinary average American to understand. One should not have to hire a team of lawyers to figure out whether an illness is covered or not.

If you can't understand the contract you are signing then yes, you should probably consult someone.
If you don't know whether particular illness or procedure is covered you need simply call your pre-certification service.
If you question whether a drug is covered you consult your formulary.
Responsible consumerism is a good thing and helps you plan accordingly.

vailpass
06-22-2011, 01:00 PM
Yeah...you think health care is expensive now, just wait till obamacare hits, and the government is on the hook for everything.

Yep. People with employer-sponsored plans may soon find themselves being forced onto government insurance. Those of us that are self-insured are bracing for rectal impact.

mnchiefsguy
06-22-2011, 01:02 PM
If you can't understand the contract you are signing then yes, you should probably consult someone.
If you don't know whether particular illness or procedure is covered you need simply call your pre-certification service.
If you question whether a drug is covered you consult your formulary.
Responsible consumerism is a good thing and helps you plan accordingly.

I agree with all of this. I remember when my wife was being rushed to the hospital with our first child in an emergency situation....I was following behind in our car, on the phone with the insurance to make sure she could get in...they hemmed and hawed (trying to say it was not an emergency depite the fact she was in an ambulance on life support, she had stopped breathing a couple of times)...but when I screamed "she's fucking dying" at them..the approval process went a lot easier.

vailpass
06-22-2011, 01:03 PM
I agree with all of this. I remember when my wife was being rushed to the hospital with our first child in an emergency situation....I was following behind in our car, on the phone with the insurance to make sure she could get in...they hemmed and hawed (trying to say it was not an emergency depite the fact she was in an ambulance on life support, she had stopped breathing a couple of times)...but when I screamed "she's ****ing dying" at them..the approval process went a lot easier.

I hope your wife make it through okay.

mnchiefsguy
06-22-2011, 01:05 PM
I hope your wife make it through okay.

She did, and our baby girl (who is now 11) made it through as well. I thank God often for the miracle that day, the Doctors that treated them were surprised they both lived.

BucEyedPea
06-22-2011, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy View Post
...they hemmed and hawed (trying to say it was not an emergency depite the fact she was in an ambulance on life support, she had stopped breathing a couple of times)...but when I screamed "she's ****ing dying" at them..the approval process went a lot easier

That's most likely because they will cover a pathological or medically critical situation over a routine situation such as maternity. Maternity coverage drives up your rates because they know it's going to be used. I have excellent coverage but if I need a regular routine eye exam for a new prescription I am charge for it. But if a blood vessel bursts or there is a corneal ulcer ( my daughter had one this past Oct) I am covered. This is a way to keep costs down, but too many Americans don't want to pay anything at all for health-care. So they buy these expensive plans instead. They are better off getting catastrophic coverage so they don't go bankrupt and paying some of their care out of their own pockets. This would create more competition among providers to keep rates in check for those services.

BucEyedPea
06-22-2011, 01:10 PM
She did, and our baby girl (who is now 11) made it through as well. I thank God often for the miracle that day, the Doctors that treated them were surprised they both lived.

Same for me.

alpha_omega
06-22-2011, 01:42 PM
...a twist government number crunchers say they discovered only after the complex bill was signed...

Would be nice if we could actually read it first, huh?

Bwana
06-22-2011, 06:24 PM
Not much has changed in Barry land, since November.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7QwRIxis7w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7QwRIxis7w)

prhom
06-23-2011, 05:38 AM
I have excellent coverage but if I need a regular routine eye exam for a new prescription I am charge for it. But if a blood vessel bursts or there is a corneal ulcer ( my daughter had one this past Oct) I am covered. This is a way to keep costs down, but too many Americans don't want to pay anything at all for health-care. So they buy these expensive plans instead. They are better off getting catastrophic coverage so they don't go bankrupt and paying some of their care out of their own pockets. This would create more competition among providers to keep rates in check for those services.

Sounds like a high-deductible plan, is it? That's what I've got now at my current job. We used to have a cadillac plan, but UHC eliminated it because they figured employers would drop it once people started getting taxed on the extra "income" from having one. Now we get an HSA from the company funded with enough money to cover the annual deductible and once the deductible is met the coverage is actually better than the old plan. No lifetime maximum either, whereas the caddy plan was set at $5M. I actually like this way better because I can pick and choose where I want to go and if I don't use the money it just accumulates and I get the same fat check from the company to put in each year. You pay a little more for routine stuff, but it's only coming from the HSA anyway so it's not directly out of pocket per se. I figure after a few years of accumulating money there I'll be pretty set up for many years to come. I don't know why HSAs haven't spread like wildfire as they seem like a cheaper, more efficient way to manage healthcare. Granted you have to be in a high-deductible plan to get one (which is dumb) but personally I prefer this way to the old caddy plan.