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Deberg_1990
06-22-2011, 12:02 PM
6 hits away from 3000.......

Underrated? Overrated? Rated just about right?

Sofa King
06-22-2011, 12:03 PM
I hate the Yankees /most baseball fans

gblowfish
06-22-2011, 12:04 PM
He's probably got several STDs....

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Good player, but overrated due to the team he plays for. Him winning 5 gold gloves is absolutely criminal.

blaise
06-22-2011, 12:05 PM
Just about right. The whole, "Mr Clutch" thing was the only real BS thing, to me. If he got a hit in a playoff game it was, "Mr. Clutch!" If he grounded into a DP it was, "And that's the end of the inning."
Getting 3,000 hits as a SS is no small feat, I don't care how much protection you have. And I hate the Yanks. No matter what, in 25 years he's going to be in Yankee lore right up there with Mantle and Joe D.

He has won at least one Gold Glove he didn't deserve, though.

SuperChief
06-22-2011, 12:06 PM
Yankee captain = HoF bound.

KurtCobain
06-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Jeter is what Jeter does.

Jewish Rabbi
06-22-2011, 12:07 PM
He's a biracial angel.

milkman
06-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Good player, but overrated due to the team he plays for.

Through most of his career, he's been the picture of consistency, and come up with timely hits.

Overall, I'd call him slightly overrated, but not to an extent that makes me want to reach out and choke the useless bastards that overrate him.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-22-2011, 12:08 PM
Through most of his career, he's been the picture of consistency, and come up with timely hits.

Overall, I'd call him slightly overrated, but not to an extent that makes me want to reach out and choke the useless bastards that overrate him.

I added to my post to why I thought that way.

Demonpenz
06-22-2011, 12:09 PM
if the royals organization teaches people to slide Jeremy Giami scores.

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Now, that play is one of the most overrated I've ever seen. I thought Breneman was going to leap out of the broadcast booth, go down on the field, and suck Jeter's cock.

KurtCobain
06-22-2011, 12:13 PM
Now, that play is one of the most overrated I've ever seen. I thought Breneman was going to leap out of the broadcast booth, go down on the field, and suck Jeter's cock.

LMAO

HotRoute
06-22-2011, 12:16 PM
Who is this derek jeeter you speak of?

MIAdragon
06-22-2011, 12:16 PM
http://bp2.blogger.com/_2rTR2Dls5Yg/SIygnJwgCtI/AAAAAAAAA_o/7mjIkBSn9Cg/s400/jeter+overrated.jpg


now that being said, he will be a first ballot Hall of Fame guy, and probable deserves it. BTW love the Yankees are stuck with his ass for the next 4 years.

Predarat
06-22-2011, 12:17 PM
His hookers say Derek Jeter has a little peter, but he has alot of money, so they don't care, some of them even let him pull thier hair.

thurman merman
06-22-2011, 12:28 PM
Good player, but overrated due to the team he plays for.

Ding ding ding. He's had a good career, but is definitely not as good as advertised.

Garcia Bronco
06-22-2011, 12:30 PM
How many rings does he have? 5? I am sorry...but that is not typically the resume of someone who is overrated

Pasta Giant Meatball
06-22-2011, 12:37 PM
How many rings does he have? 5? I am sorry...but that is not typically the resume of someone who is overrated

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the insane amount of talent he's played with in his career. Not every player gets to play with a stacked deck every season. I'm sure he'd have multiple "rings" with the Royals :rolleyes:

Bump
06-22-2011, 12:43 PM
he's one of those guys who played for the yankees his entire career. He didn't juice up one season so he could get a big payday with them. I respect him for that.

KCinNY
06-22-2011, 02:56 PM
3000 hits for a middle infielder is pretty damn impressive...Yankee or not.

Deberg_1990
07-09-2011, 12:12 PM
Congrats Jeter!

KurtCobain
07-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Yeah, pretty fucking impressive.

ChiefsandO'sfan
07-09-2011, 12:16 PM
Hope that fan is smart and sell that crap i bet it could get $100,000

Bambi
07-09-2011, 02:03 PM
Hope that fan is smart and sell that crap i bet it could get $100,000

He's already given it back.

Took a new hat and suite tickets from today through the playoffs. Pretty class kid it looked like.

Guru
07-09-2011, 02:04 PM
meh. He is a Yankee so,...

Baconeater
07-09-2011, 02:05 PM
He's a homo.

Bambi
07-09-2011, 02:06 PM
He's a homo.

5 for 5 today and just knocked in the go ahead run to take the lead.

Baconeater
07-09-2011, 02:08 PM
5 for 5 today and just knocked in the go ahead run to take the lead.
He's a flaming fucking AIDS-infested homo.

alanm
07-09-2011, 02:09 PM
5 for 5 today and just knocked in the go ahead run to take the lead.I hate the Yankees but I have watched today's game on the MLB network.

Blankey
07-09-2011, 02:12 PM
fag

Bambi
07-09-2011, 02:16 PM
He's a flaming ****ing AIDS-infested homo.

He's fucked:

Mariah Carey
Scarlett Johannson
Lara Dutta
Jordana Brewster
Vanessa Minello
Jessica Alba
Adriana
Jessica Biel
Minka Kelly

RedThat
07-09-2011, 02:16 PM
Jeter is very consistent and one of the better clutch hitters. jmo.

Count Zarth
07-09-2011, 02:16 PM
If Michael Young played in New York he'd be a much bigger star than Derek Jeter.

Bambi
07-09-2011, 02:18 PM
If Michael Young played in New York he'd be a much bigger star than Derek Jeter.

who? The guy that plays for the texas rangers?

teedubya
07-09-2011, 02:18 PM
I don't hate Jeter, as he was DRAFTED by the Yankees. I'd hate him if he was another FA pickup. Since, he was a draftee, played his whole career in pinstripes, won several WS, and now has over 3000 hits. Nothing but respect for him, from me.

CoMoChief
07-09-2011, 02:18 PM
One of the most clutch players ever......in any sport.

Most people hate him because he's a Yankee.

However, most people would love to be in that guy's shoes.

CoMoChief
07-09-2011, 02:18 PM
If Michael Young played in New York he'd be a much bigger star than Derek Jeter.

bullshitLMAO

tk13
07-09-2011, 02:19 PM
Some people probably rate him higher than his statistics would really indicate... but he definitely has that "it" factor. There's something intangible about him that makes him a great player. Clutch isn't supposed to exist... but Jeter is definitely one of those guys, like a Bird, Montana, etc... who just seem to come through more often in big moments than average players. Look at today, four hits, his 3000th hit was a HR. Same way with George Brett... hit 3000th hit was in a four hit game. He'll be remembered as a great player just because he did great things at big moments. I think that's part of the reason we watch sports though.

Baconeater
07-09-2011, 02:19 PM
He's fucked:

Mariah Carey
Scarlett Johannson
Lara Dutta
Jordana Brewster
Vanessa Minello
Jessica Alba
Adriana
Jessica Biel
Minka Kelly
Pfft, he just paid all those women to hang out with him as a cover.

tk13
07-09-2011, 02:20 PM
Okay, make that five hits. That's just amazing... it's just something you can't even really quantify.

teedubya
07-09-2011, 02:21 PM
Wait. He's fucked Jessica Alba? Ok, now I hate him.

Guru
07-09-2011, 02:34 PM
Pfft, he just paid all those women to hang out with him as a cover.

Wait. He's ****ed Jessica Alba? Ok, now I hate him.

Double LMAO

Count Zarth
07-09-2011, 02:54 PM
bullshitLMAO

162 game averages:

Michael Young: 199 hits, 38 doubles, 17 HR, 88 RBI, 48 BB, .302 AVG

Derek Jeter: 206 hits, 33 doubles, 16 HR, 79 RBI, 67 BB, .312 AVG

Young has played shortstop, second base and third base for full seasons. If Jeter did that they would be slobbing his knob even more.

And before we forget it,

Michael Young's best year:

221 hits, 40 doubles, 24 HR, 91 RBI, 58 BB, .331 AVG

Derek Jeter's best year:

219 hits, 37 doubles, 24 HR, 102 RBI, 91 BB, .349 AVG

Very little difference between the two players other than Young plays better defense and Jeter has played on far better teams.

|Zach|
07-09-2011, 02:58 PM
I don't care for MLB or NYY but he doesn't seem like a bad guy.

ChiefsCountry
07-09-2011, 03:15 PM
Jeter and Riveria are the two most likeable Yankees. Mainly bc they weren't bought by New York and are pretty classy guys. Overrated for sure, but that is part of playing in New York.

GloryDayz
07-09-2011, 03:19 PM
Jeter and Posada are awesome, the rest of the Yankees can DIAF for all I care.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 03:43 PM
If Michael Young played in New York he'd be a much bigger star than Derek Jeter.
Young .254 post season
Jeter .309

Stick to football.

Count Zarth
07-09-2011, 03:45 PM
Young .254 post season
Jeter .309

Stick to football.

Young has only participated in a handful of postseason games. Too small a sample size.

teedubya
07-09-2011, 03:48 PM
Jeter's been pretty consistent, too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/09/jeter-joins-3000-hit-club_n_891716.html?ref=tw

Kick ass infographic on everyone who ever made the 3,000 hit club.

Guru
07-09-2011, 03:52 PM
Jeter's been pretty consistent, too.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/09/jeter-joins-3000-hit-club_n_891716.html?ref=tw

Kick ass infographic on everyone who ever made the 3,000 hit club.
Very cool graphic. I wonder if anyone will ever come close to Pete Rose.

Guru
07-09-2011, 03:54 PM
George Brett and Craig Biggio are the only ones with no ties on that chart.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 03:59 PM
Jeter is not over rated his post season numbers exceed his regular season averages.
He is one of the best players of his era. Always played hard and respectful of others who came before him.He was a major reason for the Yankees return to the top.
He will have a monument in center field when it is all said and done.
Yankee haters can't even begin to comprehend how good he has been.

Brainiac
07-09-2011, 04:01 PM
He's ****ed:

Mariah Carey
Scarlett Johannson
Lara Dutta
Jordana Brewster
Vanessa Minello
Jessica Alba
Adriana
Jessica Biel
Minka Kelly
If I could pick anybody in the world to trade lives with, it would be Derek Jeter. Gets to play baseball for a living, gets to play shortstop (the coolest position there is), gets to be a superstar for the Yankees for 20+ years, and gets to fuck some of the most beautiful women in the world, and smart enough to stay single his entire career (as was George Brett).

Oh yeah, he's also probably got around $100 million in the bank.

Not a bad life.

Brainiac
07-09-2011, 04:03 PM
As far as where he ranks as a player: definitely an excellent player, but a shade below Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle. Somebody (I think it was JoPo) tweeted the other day that Jeter should be with those other guys on a Yankee Mount Rushmore. I disagree. Those 4 stand alone.

notorious
07-09-2011, 04:04 PM
He's a guy that shuts his mouth and gets the job done.


Being a Yankee is his only negative mark, but he didn't choose to be so it's not near as bad.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 04:04 PM
If I could pick anybody in the world to trade lives with, it would be Derek Jeter. Gets to play baseball for a living, gets to play shortstop (the coolest position there is), gets to be a superstar for the Yankees for 20+ years, and gets to fuck some of the most beautiful women in the world, and smart enough to stay single his entire career (as was George Brett).

Oh yeah, he's also probably got around $100 million in the bank.

Not a bad life.

Yea one can do alot worse.

And he told everyone who would listen when he was a kid he was going to be ss for the yankees and then did it.

Jayhawkerman2001
07-09-2011, 04:05 PM
I'd say Jeter is just about right. He may play for a team i despise, i just can't find myself hating on him at all. He's never done a single thing to look like a jackass and i actually somewhat admire the guy.

Deberg_1990
07-09-2011, 04:08 PM
So heres an age old argument. Whose more valuable? A guy like Jeter with over 3000 hits, but really didnt walk all that much. Or a guy like Bonds, who didnt get 3000 hits but had alot more total bases and walks than Jeter did.

Predarat
07-09-2011, 04:11 PM
Derek Jeter, they say he has a little peter
but he gets hot chicks so I guess he gives good licks.

Brainiac
07-09-2011, 04:19 PM
So heres an age old argument. Whose more valuable? A guy like Jeter with over 3000 hits, but really didnt walk all that much. Or a guy like Bonds, who didnt get 3000 hits but had alot more total bases and walks than Jeter did.
As much as I dislike Barry Bonds, he was a more valuable player than Jeter. He also had a few more home runs than Jeter.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 04:26 PM
So heres an age old argument. Whose more valuable? A guy like Jeter with over 3000 hits, but really didnt walk all that much. Or a guy like Bonds, who didnt get 3000 hits but had alot more total bases and walks than Jeter did.

Depends if you are talking fantasy baseball Bonds.
In rl...Bonds locker room cancer hated by his own teammates..below average fielder..noodle arm that cost his team a playoff series .Jeter set the standard for fellow Yankees to be team first players ..clutch player who hit more homeruns per game in post season than regular season and in his prime a great defensive player.
Bonds walks often intentional /semi intentional. If you pitched to Bonds back in the day you were stupid.
Jeter prob had no more than 10 intentional walks in his career.

loochy
07-09-2011, 04:27 PM
As much as I dislike Barry Bonds, he was a more valuable player than Jeter. He also had a few more home runs than Jeter.

I say total runs scored + total rbi is a good value of total worth. Bonds wins.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 04:28 PM
I say total runs scored + total rbi is a good value of total worth. Bonds wins.
Yea because a leadoff/2 hitter gets as many rbi's as a cleanup or 3rd hitter.

loochy
07-09-2011, 04:30 PM
Yea because a leadoff/2 hitter gets as many rbi's as a cleanup or 3rd hitter.

That's why I include runs scored. Runs win games, right?


...I don't really know how to factor in the fielding part though.

kstater
07-09-2011, 05:01 PM
So heres an age old argument. Whose more valuable? A guy like Jeter with over 3000 hits, but really didnt walk all that much. Or a guy like Bonds, who didnt get 3000 hits but had alot more total bases and walks than Jeter did.

Bonds easily.

chiefzilla1501
07-09-2011, 05:35 PM
Jeter and Riveria are the two most likeable Yankees. Mainly bc they weren't bought by New York and are pretty classy guys. Overrated for sure, but that is part of playing in New York.

Not sure if you're trying to say that Rivera is overrated. Because he's definitely not.

I think Jeter is a bit overrated, but he's still going to the hall and deservedly so. And yes, as a Yankee fan, there's no way I would put him above Bonds. Then again, I doubt anyone would accuse Jeter of using steroids.

chiefzilla1501
07-09-2011, 05:37 PM
As far as where he ranks as a player: definitely an excellent player, but a shade below Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle. Somebody (I think it was JoPo) tweeted the other day that Jeter should be with those other guys on a Yankee Mount Rushmore. I disagree. Those 4 stand alone.

It's an interesting case, because Jeter's place in that mix is only because of popularity. And if we're talking popularity, I actually think Donnie Baseball has him beat by quite a bit.

listopencil
07-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Derek Jeter is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

milkman
07-09-2011, 05:44 PM
Not sure if you're trying to say that Rivera is overrated. Because he's definitely not.

I think Jeter is a bit overrated, but he's still going to the hall and deservedly so. And yes, as a Yankee fan, there's no way I would put him above Bonds. Then again, I doubt anyone would accuse Jeter of using steroids.

The thing is, had Bonds not taken steroids, he would have been in the discussion among the all time greats, because he was as complete a player as any in baseball before he started the steroids.

MIAdragon
07-09-2011, 06:03 PM
The thing is, had Bonds not taken steroids, he would have been in the discussion among the all time greats, because he was as complete a player as any in baseball before he started the steroids.

Who knows if he ever played clean.

milkman
07-09-2011, 06:06 PM
Who knows if he ever played clean.

He may not have ever played clean, but his game changed around '98-'99, so it's probably a pretty safe bet that he played clean his first 7 or 8 years.

KurtCobain
07-09-2011, 06:11 PM
Derek Jeter is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

And he knows when I'm feeling uncomfortable.

MIAdragon
07-09-2011, 06:12 PM
He may not have ever played clean, but his game changed around '98-'99, so it's probably a pretty safe bet that he played clean his first 7 or 8 years.

Or he started using the good stuff or got serious about it. The early 90's is where most say roids took off in MLB. I bet you would be hard pressed to find anyone who played clean then.

RippedmyFlesh
07-09-2011, 07:28 PM
The thing is, had Bonds not taken steroids, he would have been in the discussion among the all time greats, because he was as complete a player as any in baseball before he started the steroids.

He became 1 dimensional .He was the best at that one though.
I agree if he hadn't he still would have been a 500 homer well rounded player.
Instead of being Willie Mays he wanted to be Hank Aaron.

chiefzilla1501
07-09-2011, 08:11 PM
He may not have ever played clean, but his game changed around '98-'99, so it's probably a pretty safe bet that he played clean his first 7 or 8 years.

Yes, that's true.

And I still think it's an interesting theory that steroids may not enhance performance nearly as much as people think it does. There are a lot of people who think that juiced balls might have more to do with the power hitting of the steroid era than steroids. If that's the case, then all steroids may have done is make Bonds slower--he was not only a power hitter, but also extremely fast.

threebag02
07-09-2011, 08:30 PM
I cannot stand the yankees

GloryDayz
07-09-2011, 09:06 PM
The only thing that sux is now we won't stop hearing about it for 3 weeks!! Ugh! It's cool, but let's just be done with it now. Heck, the Royals scoring 13 is almost as monumental as his 3000!

gblowfish
07-09-2011, 09:35 PM
Die Yankee Scum.

RJ
07-09-2011, 10:20 PM
I really, really hate the Yankees but must confess to a grudging admiration for Jeter. Any baseball fan would love to have him on their own favorite team.

Frazod
07-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Die Yankee Scum.

This.

Garcia Bronco
07-11-2011, 11:11 AM
I'm sure that has nothing to do with the insane amount of talent he's played with in his career. Not every player gets to play with a stacked deck every season. I'm sure he'd have multiple "rings" with the Royals :rolleyes:

Yankees weren't winning again until he showed up.

vailpass
07-11-2011, 11:13 AM
5/5 with an HR for #3k?
Hate if you hate but there is no denying how nails that is.

BigCatDaddy
07-11-2011, 11:15 AM
He's no Cal Ripken.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-11-2011, 11:16 AM
Yankees weren't winning until he showed up.

....along with 200 million dollars worth of "help"

ChiefsandO'sfan
07-11-2011, 03:17 PM
PriscoCBSPete Prisco

The kid who caught Jeter's ball is a moron. He owes $100,000 in loans and gave it back? What? You are a moron, buddy.

Amnorix
07-11-2011, 03:24 PM
As far as where he ranks as a player: definitely an excellent player, but a shade below Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle. Somebody (I think it was JoPo) tweeted the other day that Jeter should be with those other guys on a Yankee Mount Rushmore. I disagree. Those 4 stand alone.


errr...is this even in doubt?

I think he's a great player and surefire HOFer and all that, but he's not in the same league as the greatest of the greats. Not even close.

Amnorix
07-11-2011, 03:28 PM
I say total runs scored + total rbi is a good value of total worth. Bonds wins.

What? You're relying on other players to help you with both those stats. Babe Ruth on today's Pittsburgh Pirates gets tons of walks, therefore far fewer home runs and far fewer RBIs, and won't score nearly as often because he doesn't have Gehrig behind him.

Your stat reliance selection for determining good players is basically the exact opposite of what you should do.

Amnorix
07-11-2011, 03:30 PM
So heres an age old argument. Whose more valuable? A guy like Jeter with over 3000 hits, but really didnt walk all that much. Or a guy like Bonds, who didnt get 3000 hits but had alot more total bases and walks than Jeter did.

There's no difference between a single and a walk for any practical purpose in terms of evaluating a player.

Total hits is a great number, but if one guy gets 3,000 hits and 0 walks, and another guy has 2,500 hits and 500 walks, assuming the number of doubles, triples and home runs is the same, then they're the same guy.

Amnorix
07-11-2011, 03:34 PM
Yes, that's true.

And I still think it's an interesting theory that steroids may not enhance performance nearly as much as people think it does. There are a lot of people who think that juiced balls might have more to do with the power hitting of the steroid era than steroids. If that's the case, then all steroids may have done is make Bonds slower--he was not only a power hitter, but also extremely fast.

Holy crap. :rolleyes:

MahiMike
07-11-2011, 04:43 PM
3000 hits for a middle infielder is pretty damn impressive...Yankee or not.

This. Stats don't lie.

WV
07-11-2011, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't take anything from him as 3000 hits is nothing to sneeze at and is a huge accomplishment. That said though he's had a long career and probably some of the best hitters in the game protecting him in the lineup. No one ever pitched around Jeter.

Pasta Giant Meatball
07-11-2011, 04:57 PM
This. Stats don't lie.

Not always. The fact he has 5 gold gloves is a crime.

Deberg_1990
09-25-2014, 04:42 PM
Bump!


The knob slobbing is thankfully near the end

LoneWolf
09-25-2014, 04:43 PM
I hope the game is rained out and they don't make it up. Fuck Jeter.

SPchief
09-25-2014, 04:47 PM
Whatever you do, don't put it on MLB network

Prison Bitch
09-25-2014, 04:47 PM
Great player, great ambassador, great for the game.

Fruit Ninja
09-25-2014, 04:48 PM
Good player, but getting sick of the love fest on tv. lol

Deberg_1990
09-25-2014, 04:50 PM
ROFL


Perfect.



http://gawker.com/derek-jeter-was-ok-1639023597/+tcraggs22

After tonight—or as of yesterday, depending on the rain—Derek Jeter will have played his final game in Yankee Stadium. It's as fine a time as any to note, for the record, that Derek Jeter was an OK ballplayer. He was pretty good at playing baseball, overall, and he did it for a pretty long time.

The Yankees and the mass media and the sports-marketing world are busy bidding farewell to Captain Clutch, Mr. November, an immortal champion who stood above all other immortals and champions, the embodiment of everything great and righteous in America's pastime. This is all horseshit and branding, and plenty of people are naturally reacting to it as such, and pointing out that Captain Clutch was a lazy and lousy defensive player, an aloof and selfish millionaire wrapped in a cocoon of banality woven by multiple advertising and publicity departments. And "Captain Clutch," the mythic figure, was all those terrible things. But Derek Jeter was OK.


After tonight—or as of yesterday, depending on the rain—Derek Jeter will have played his final game in Yankee Stadium. It's as fine a time as any to note, for the record, that Derek Jeter was an OK ballplayer. He was pretty good at playing baseball, overall, and he did it for a pretty long time.

The Yankees and the mass media and the sports-marketing world are busy bidding farewell to Captain Clutch, Mr. November, an immortal champion who stood above all other immortals and champions, the embodiment of everything great and righteous in America's pastime. This is all horseshit and branding, and plenty of people are naturally reacting to it as such, and pointing out that Captain Clutch was a lazy and lousy defensive player, an aloof and selfish millionaire wrapped in a cocoon of banality woven by multiple advertising and publicity departments. And "Captain Clutch," the mythic figure, was all those terrible things. But Derek Jeter was OK.


That Stupid Derek Jeter Ad Will Make You Cry For A
Read on deadspin.​com
You have to be good at baseball to last 20 seasons in the major leagues. Jeter will retire in 26th place, all time, in number of games played, right below Tony Perez and above Mel Ott—two good players, both in the Hall of Fame. Fine company. He is No. 10 all-time in plate appearances, No. 10 in runs scored, and No. 6 all-time in hits. He was a successful batter in productive lineups for many years.

He was not Babe Ruth at the plate. No one but Babe Ruth has ever been Babe Ruth. He was not Ted Williams or Rickey Henderson. Spectators did not come away from seeing Derek Jeter marveling at the stupendous, unimaginable feats of hitting they had seen. But he did lots and lots of damage. He got many big hits and contributed to many big rallies. Pitchers would have preferred not to have to pitch to him.

Defensively, it's true, he was dreadful. Like many highly focused hitters, Jeter treated his defensive duties as an afterthought—neglecting the fundamentals of positioning and movement, allowing hundreds of fieldable balls to pass out of his reach, where they would be scored as hits and blamed on the pitcher. His considerable athletic abilities allowed him to sometimes make spectacular leaping and twisting plays on misjudged balls that better shortstops would have played routinely.

People enjoyed watching him make those plays, and that enjoyment led to his winning five Gold Gloves. That misplaced acclaim, in turn, helped spur more advanced analysis of defensive play in baseball, a body of knowledge which will ensure that no one ever again will be able to play shortstop as badly as Jeter for as long as he did. And that gave fans something to argue about, which is an important part of sports.

Regardless, on balance, Jeter's good hitting helped his team more than his bad fielding hurt it. The statistical ledger says so—by Wins Above Replacement, according to Baseball Reference, his glovework drops him from being the 20th most productive position player of all time to the 58th. Having the 58th most productive career among non-pitchers in major-league history is still a solid achievement.

This level of ability made Jeter fit right in on a long series of winning Yankees teams. He won four World Series in his first six seasons, and one more much later. The front-loading of that success might suggest that much of the credit belonged to his early teammates; then again, if Jeter's teammates were responsible for those championships, he can't be personally blamed much for the relatively lean years, either. Baseball remains a team game, for all its celebration of individual heroes.

Nonetheless, Jeter did stand out as a fine individual performer. In his early years, Jeter was clearly the third-best of the sport's three young star shortstops. Nomar Garciaparra—hitting 30 or more home runs, or batting over .350—was a much more remarkable hitter, but injuries wore him down, while Jeter kept producing. And then there was Alex Rodriguez: not only the best all-around shortstop but a home-run king, a genuine prodigy, a once-in-a-lifetime do-everything performer.

Do everything, that is, except play shortstop for the Yankees. When Rodriguez showed up in the Bronx, Jeter would not yield the job. It was a selfish decision and the situation hurt the team. But powerful egos, misplaced competitiveness, and unrealistic self-appraisals are common features in elite athletes. Whatever wrong Jeter may have done in the intrasquad rivalry, it was the Yankees' fault for not managing him better.

And the Yankee fans didn't mind his character flaws, such as they were. To the limited extent that they were able to know Jeter, they liked what they saw. He was not a phenomenon like Reggie Jackson or a transcendent popular icon like Joe DiMaggio. He was a tribal figure—beloved by people who root for the Yankees, despised by people who root against the Yankees.

Neither response had much to do with Jeter himself. Like most star athletes of his era, he kept his public persona intentionally blank and dull, but with none of the awkward self-consciousness of the similarly restrained Rodriguez. Depending on their allegiances, baseball fans could imagine him to be classy or imagine him to be pissy, and the limited evidence could support either conclusion.

Physically, he was a pretty young man who got thicker and weirder-looking into his 30s, only to cut a gaunt and striking figure as he arrived at middle age. (This is the one aspect in which he truly did parallel Cal Ripken, Jr.). The gossip around him involved the most mundane, heterosexual sort of salaciousness: Wealthy, successful athlete has his choice of attractive women, and exercises that choice.

Add it all together—the longevity, the doubles power, his pesky and opportunistic base running, the championships, the selfishness and bad defense, all the projected virtue and vice—and you get something like a lower-grade, non-malignant version of Pete Rose. Baseball Reference calculates that the player whose career most closely resembles Jeter's is Craig Biggio of the Houston Astros.

Biggio retired seven years ago, with 3,060 hits and 1,844 runs scored. Jeter currently has 3,461 and 1,922, respectively, but Biggio had more doubles, home runs, and stolen bases. This year, in his second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, Biggio got 74.8 percent of the vote, missing induction by two votes. He will almost certainly make it next time around; no one really objects to the notion that a player like Craig Biggio belongs in the Hall of Fame.

And so Jeter will belong in the Hall of Fame too. His uniform number, 2, will be retired by the Yankees, like every other single-digit uniform number has been, from Billy Martin's 1 through Roger Maris's 9. He's part of history.

PackerinMo
09-25-2014, 04:51 PM
It really is a shame that nobody is saying a peep about Paul Konerko and he actually won a ring. The media is awful.

SPchief
09-25-2014, 04:52 PM
It really is a shame that nobody is saying a peep about Paul Konerko andhe actually won a ring. The media is awful.

:spock:

PackerinMo
09-25-2014, 04:54 PM
:spock:

Whatever dude.

Prison Bitch
09-25-2014, 04:57 PM
It really is a shame that nobody is saying a peep about Paul Konerko and he actually won a ring. The media is awful.

WHO?

SPchief
09-25-2014, 04:57 PM
Whatever dude.

I'm just trying to see what that post meant. Jeter is massively overrated as a SS and I agree with everything in the article posted a few posts up.

PackerinMo
09-25-2014, 05:16 PM
Paul Konerko is retiring after a pretty good career with the White Sox and nobody is talking about him. I figured since he won a ring at least the media wouldn't completely scoff him. There's nothing wrong with giving Jeter his due respect but I just think its wrong to diss Konerko like the media is doing.

Demonpenz
09-25-2014, 05:21 PM
Paul Konerko and Jim Thome can both attribute 30% of their numbers due to the Royals not fielding a Major League Team when they played.

SPchief
09-25-2014, 05:26 PM
Paul Konerko is retiring after a pretty good career with the White Sox and nobody is talking about him. I figured since he won a ring at least the media wouldn't completely scoff him. There's nothing wrong with giving Jeter his due respect but I just think its wrong to diss Konerko like the media is doing.

You're aware that Jeter has 5 rings right?

Deberg_1990
09-25-2014, 05:29 PM
Costas calling tonight's Yankees game

Mr. Laz
09-25-2014, 05:31 PM
He's a yankee .... fuck him with a dildo dipped in aids.

PackerinMo
09-25-2014, 05:32 PM
You're aware that Jeter has 5 rings right?

Indeed, did you not read where I said there's nothing wrong with him getting his due respect? Jeez, you guys are making an issue where there isn't one.

chiefzilla1501
09-25-2014, 05:34 PM
ROFL


Perfect.



http://gawker.com/derek-jeter-was-ok-1639023597/+tcraggs22

After tonight—or as of yesterday, depending on the rain—Derek Jeter will have played his final game in Yankee Stadium. It's as fine a time as any to note, for the record, that Derek Jeter was an OK ballplayer. He was pretty good at playing baseball, overall, and he did it for a pretty long time.

The Yankees and the mass media and the sports-marketing world are busy bidding farewell to Captain Clutch, Mr. November, an immortal champion who stood above all other immortals and champions, the embodiment of everything great and righteous in America's pastime. This is all horseshit and branding, and plenty of people are naturally reacting to it as such, and pointing out that Captain Clutch was a lazy and lousy defensive player, an aloof and selfish millionaire wrapped in a cocoon of banality woven by multiple advertising and publicity departments. And "Captain Clutch," the mythic figure, was all those terrible things. But Derek Jeter was OK.


After tonight—or as of yesterday, depending on the rain—Derek Jeter will have played his final game in Yankee Stadium. It's as fine a time as any to note, for the record, that Derek Jeter was an OK ballplayer. He was pretty good at playing baseball, overall, and he did it for a pretty long time.

The Yankees and the mass media and the sports-marketing world are busy bidding farewell to Captain Clutch, Mr. November, an immortal champion who stood above all other immortals and champions, the embodiment of everything great and righteous in America's pastime. This is all horseshit and branding, and plenty of people are naturally reacting to it as such, and pointing out that Captain Clutch was a lazy and lousy defensive player, an aloof and selfish millionaire wrapped in a cocoon of banality woven by multiple advertising and publicity departments. And "Captain Clutch," the mythic figure, was all those terrible things. But Derek Jeter was OK.


That Stupid Derek Jeter Ad Will Make You Cry For A
Read on deadspin.​com
You have to be good at baseball to last 20 seasons in the major leagues. Jeter will retire in 26th place, all time, in number of games played, right below Tony Perez and above Mel Ott—two good players, both in the Hall of Fame. Fine company. He is No. 10 all-time in plate appearances, No. 10 in runs scored, and No. 6 all-time in hits. He was a successful batter in productive lineups for many years.

He was not Babe Ruth at the plate. No one but Babe Ruth has ever been Babe Ruth. He was not Ted Williams or Rickey Henderson. Spectators did not come away from seeing Derek Jeter marveling at the stupendous, unimaginable feats of hitting they had seen. But he did lots and lots of damage. He got many big hits and contributed to many big rallies. Pitchers would have preferred not to have to pitch to him.

Defensively, it's true, he was dreadful. Like many highly focused hitters, Jeter treated his defensive duties as an afterthought—neglecting the fundamentals of positioning and movement, allowing hundreds of fieldable balls to pass out of his reach, where they would be scored as hits and blamed on the pitcher. His considerable athletic abilities allowed him to sometimes make spectacular leaping and twisting plays on misjudged balls that better shortstops would have played routinely.

People enjoyed watching him make those plays, and that enjoyment led to his winning five Gold Gloves. That misplaced acclaim, in turn, helped spur more advanced analysis of defensive play in baseball, a body of knowledge which will ensure that no one ever again will be able to play shortstop as badly as Jeter for as long as he did. And that gave fans something to argue about, which is an important part of sports.

Regardless, on balance, Jeter's good hitting helped his team more than his bad fielding hurt it. The statistical ledger says so—by Wins Above Replacement, according to Baseball Reference, his glovework drops him from being the 20th most productive position player of all time to the 58th. Having the 58th most productive career among non-pitchers in major-league history is still a solid achievement.

This level of ability made Jeter fit right in on a long series of winning Yankees teams. He won four World Series in his first six seasons, and one more much later. The front-loading of that success might suggest that much of the credit belonged to his early teammates; then again, if Jeter's teammates were responsible for those championships, he can't be personally blamed much for the relatively lean years, either. Baseball remains a team game, for all its celebration of individual heroes.

Nonetheless, Jeter did stand out as a fine individual performer. In his early years, Jeter was clearly the third-best of the sport's three young star shortstops. Nomar Garciaparra—hitting 30 or more home runs, or batting over .350—was a much more remarkable hitter, but injuries wore him down, while Jeter kept producing. And then there was Alex Rodriguez: not only the best all-around shortstop but a home-run king, a genuine prodigy, a once-in-a-lifetime do-everything performer.

Do everything, that is, except play shortstop for the Yankees. When Rodriguez showed up in the Bronx, Jeter would not yield the job. It was a selfish decision and the situation hurt the team. But powerful egos, misplaced competitiveness, and unrealistic self-appraisals are common features in elite athletes. Whatever wrong Jeter may have done in the intrasquad rivalry, it was the Yankees' fault for not managing him better.

And the Yankee fans didn't mind his character flaws, such as they were. To the limited extent that they were able to know Jeter, they liked what they saw. He was not a phenomenon like Reggie Jackson or a transcendent popular icon like Joe DiMaggio. He was a tribal figure—beloved by people who root for the Yankees, despised by people who root against the Yankees.

Neither response had much to do with Jeter himself. Like most star athletes of his era, he kept his public persona intentionally blank and dull, but with none of the awkward self-consciousness of the similarly restrained Rodriguez. Depending on their allegiances, baseball fans could imagine him to be classy or imagine him to be pissy, and the limited evidence could support either conclusion.

Physically, he was a pretty young man who got thicker and weirder-looking into his 30s, only to cut a gaunt and striking figure as he arrived at middle age. (This is the one aspect in which he truly did parallel Cal Ripken, Jr.). The gossip around him involved the most mundane, heterosexual sort of salaciousness: Wealthy, successful athlete has his choice of attractive women, and exercises that choice.

Add it all together—the longevity, the doubles power, his pesky and opportunistic base running, the championships, the selfishness and bad defense, all the projected virtue and vice—and you get something like a lower-grade, non-malignant version of Pete Rose. Baseball Reference calculates that the player whose career most closely resembles Jeter's is Craig Biggio of the Houston Astros.

Biggio retired seven years ago, with 3,060 hits and 1,844 runs scored. Jeter currently has 3,461 and 1,922, respectively, but Biggio had more doubles, home runs, and stolen bases. This year, in his second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, Biggio got 74.8 percent of the vote, missing induction by two votes. He will almost certainly make it next time around; no one really objects to the notion that a player like Craig Biggio belongs in the Hall of Fame.

And so Jeter will belong in the Hall of Fame too. His uniform number, 2, will be retired by the Yankees, like every other single-digit uniform number has been, from Billy Martin's 1 through Roger Maris's 9. He's part of history.
This article gets it wrong on many levels. Jeter wasn't a horrible fielder. He was good enough.

Jeters clutch hitting isn't mythology. His numbers are the same or better in postseason play. And unlike most players, he actually has enough at bats in the postseason for that to be statistically significant. That's pretty stunning.

He isn't overrated. Nobody is calling him the greatest player of our generation. Not even close. Overpublicized? Sure. But you have a future hall of famer, plays in the biggest market in all sports, one of the winningest players of our generation, and he played on the same team his entire career. Like when Jordan left the NBA, the mlb has to come to grips with the fact that there is nobody even close to being as marketable.

Simplicity
09-25-2014, 05:38 PM
He's a yankee .... **** him with a dildo dipped in aids.

I respect the game because it's the game that I love. Jeter has my respect as well because he defines what baseball should be about. ****, who cares about the ****ing jersey he puts on. It's bigger than that... He has been a perfect model of baseball on and off the field that sheds light on the game.

Maybe it's just because I still play and plan on playing for more years to come but the perspective is different for me. **** who he plays for. It's what he has down as a model for baseball

That being said... I think the media this year has caused a huge distraction.

Deberg_1990
09-25-2014, 08:24 PM
Jeter saying his final goodbyes now

Count Zarth
09-25-2014, 08:25 PM
Fucking amazing first swing.

srvy
09-25-2014, 08:47 PM
This article gets it wrong on many levels. Jeter wasn't a horrible fielder. He was good enough.

Jeters clutch hitting isn't mythology. His numbers are the same or better in postseason play. And unlike most players, he actually has enough at bats in the postseason for that to be statistically significant. That's pretty stunning.

He isn't overrated. Nobody is calling him the greatest player of our generation. Not even close. Overpublicized? Sure. But you have a future hall of famer, plays in the biggest market in all sports, one of the winningest players of our generation, and he played on the same team his entire career. Like when Jordan left the NBA, the mlb has to come to grips with the fact that there is nobody even close to being as marketable.

That article never said he wasn't a HOF'er. But 5 gold gloves common:hmmm:

Chiefnj2
09-25-2014, 08:57 PM
What a way to finish his career at Yankee Stadium.

vailpass
09-25-2014, 08:59 PM
Mad respect...

chiefzilla1501
09-25-2014, 09:21 PM
That article never said he wasn't a HOF'er. But 5 gold gloves common:hmmm:

The article did everything in its power to call him a more pretty, marketable version of Robin Yount. Borderline hall of famer. It's a complete joke.

Jeter will have his place in history as a hall of famer in his own right. His clutch hitting puts him middle of the pack as a hall of famer. The idea that the guy would bitch about Jeter not giving up his natural position of shortstop takes the article from a legit questioning of credentials to sour grapes.

Why Not?
09-25-2014, 09:37 PM
Perfect ending

GloucesterChief
09-25-2014, 09:43 PM
He was certainly overrated due to the market he played in.

BigCatDaddy
09-25-2014, 09:45 PM
He was certainly overrated due to the market he played in.

Agreed. Perfect storm of being in a big market and surrounded by all stars. Good player, but HIGHLY over rated.

Mr. Flopnuts
09-25-2014, 09:46 PM
I hate the Yankees, but I have to respect Jeter. For everything he has done, for the man he is, and how he's carried himself on and off the field. He deserved that parting shot. He deserved every bit of it, and it's going to make for a helluva ending scene in a movie someday. That was a special, historic, moment, and I'm glad to have seen it. Farewell Jeter.

alnorth
09-25-2014, 09:46 PM
He's not a good defensive SS.

Aside from that, he was an incredible baseball player, and obviously a first-ballot HOF'er. If he were playing a position that was more suited to his defensive ability, there would be no criticism at all. He could be the greatest player in the last generation.

58-4ever
09-25-2014, 09:48 PM
Derek Jeter is the best bachelor of all time. How he has managed to bang so much hot pussy and remain uncommitted is really something to admire. He is my hero in so many ways for that. I love Derek Jeter.

Why Not?
09-25-2014, 09:50 PM
I hate the Yankees, but I have to respect Jeter. For everything he has done, for the man he is, and how he's carried himself on and off the field. He deserved that parting shot. He deserved every bit of it, and it's going to make for a helluva ending scene in a movie someday. That was a special, historic, moment, and I'm glad to have seen it. Farewell Jeter.

Very well put

lewdog
09-25-2014, 09:50 PM
He was a good hitter but never really was the "Mr. Clutch" that everyone wants to anoint him.

chiefzilla1501
09-25-2014, 10:26 PM
He was a good hitter but never really was the "Mr. Clutch" that everyone wants to anoint him.

His numbers (average, HR, RBI) in the postseason are almost identical to his regular season numbers which were also very good. That means that against the game's top pitching in the clutchest environment, he still managed the same numbers. If I'm not mistaken, his numbers in what would be considered clutch situations are also identical.

And unlike most batters, Jeter has enough at bats for that stat to actually mean something. He has pretty much a full season of at bats in the postseason.

He is exactly as clutch as he's annointed to be.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-25-2014, 10:28 PM
I hated him during the Yankee dynasty, but he stuck around long enough for me to respect his game. He was a hell of a ballplayer and a guy you'd want on your team. Never a great defender, but he was competent, and he was a tremendous hitter for his position.

Baseball will definitely be different without him.

Count Zarth
09-25-2014, 11:37 PM
A good, but completely over-hyped player simply due to playing in NY.

Basically Michael Young, but played on great teams instead of shit ones.

http://i.imgur.com/NmFMC4c.jpg

Count Zarth
09-25-2014, 11:42 PM
Derek Jeter is the best bachelor of all time. How he has managed to bang so much hot pussy and remain uncommitted is really something to admire. He is my hero in so many ways for that. I love Derek Jeter.

He's probably a fucking asshole.

Count Zarth
09-25-2014, 11:45 PM
Also, in other news, Jeter's final season may have been pedestrian, but holy shit Paul Konerko went out with barely a peep.

.217/5/22

That's sad.

Guru
09-26-2014, 12:15 AM
couldn't give two shits.

SeeingRed
09-26-2014, 02:06 AM
Amazing player. Iconic. The thing I respect most about Jeter is his character, 20 years and you never heard of any scandal....just a class act. One of the greats. Awesome moment tonight, perfect way for him to go out.

BWillie
09-26-2014, 03:16 AM
He's not a good defensive SS.

Aside from that, he was an incredible baseball player, and obviously a first-ballot HOF'er. If he were playing a position that was more suited to his defensive ability, there would be no criticism at all. He could be the greatest player in the last generation.

What position do you feel he was better suited for?

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 04:37 AM
A good, but completely over-hyped player simply due to playing in NY.

Basically Michael Young, but played on great teams instead of shit ones.

http://i.imgur.com/NmFMC4c.jpg

Even if Jeter has more at bats, Jeter is a 3,000 hit guy and has > 1,000 more hits than Young. He also has 4 times the amount of stolen bases. It's an interesting comparison, but again, Jeter is a hall of famer without the clutch aspect. He is a first ballot, no doubt hall of famer because of his play in the clutch. Again, his numbers (at least most of his career... don't know how this changed in his twilight years) was identical both in situations considered to be clutch and in the postseason. It's not flashy. But it basically says that regardless of situation, he's the same exact hall of fame hitter. Consistently. I mean, he hit over .300 in 10 of his 16 postseason appearances.

That's really remarkable. While guys like Papi have more flashy clutch moments, Jeter could be one of the most consistent clutch players of all time.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 04:44 AM
What position do you feel he was better suited for?

I'm not sure why people are calling him a terrible defensive shortstop. He was adequate. Wasn't a liability, was definitely not a playmaker. Didn't make many mistakes but didn't have the kind of range elite shortstops have. He was solid but unspectacular.

Most defensive stats are badly skewed because Jeter played shortstop WAY longer than most shortstops should. He should have been moved to second base by the time he was 33.

Deberg_1990
09-26-2014, 06:22 AM
Put Jeter on the Royals from 94 to 2014 and he still has a great career but goes out with a whimper. Circumstance plays into his career a ton

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 06:25 AM
Put Jeter on the Royals from 94 to 2014 and he still has a great career but goes out with a whimper. Circumstance plays into his career a ton
On a different team, he ends up with 3000 hits and is a great clutch hitter, retires a few years ago, and ends his career at 2b. It would also be a shame because nobody would ever know how damn good he was in the postseason.

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 06:49 AM
A good, but completely over-hyped player simply due to playing in NY.

Basically Michael Young, but played on great teams instead of shit ones.

http://i.imgur.com/NmFMC4c.jpg

How many years is that based on? The same amount of seasons for each guy?

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 07:06 AM
How many years is that based on? The same amount of seasons for each guy?
Really important given that his defensive war massively dropped after he turned 33.

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 07:08 AM
Really important given that his defensive war massively dropped after he turned 33.

Also given Cano played 2nd there was awhile, I'm not sure where you could have moved him to. 3rd?

ChiefRocka
09-26-2014, 07:10 AM
errr...is this even in doubt?

I think he's a great player and surefire HOFer and all that, but he's not in the same league as the greatest of the greats. Not even close.

I'd argue that in the past 50 years he's been the closest thing and when Jordan puts his stamp on your ass you are forever enshrined.

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 07:15 AM
I'd argue that in the past 50 years he's been the closest thing and when Jordan puts his stamp on your ass you are forever enshrined.

LMAO At least 1 MVP would have helped that argument. He was a good player, but don't get carried away. If you are going to be the greatest in 50 years, it would be nice to be the greatest in the game in ate least 1 of those 50 years.

ChiefRocka
09-26-2014, 07:19 AM
LMAO At least 1 MVP would have helped that argument. He was a good player, but don't get carried away. If you are going to be the greatest in 50 years, it would be nice to be the greatest in the game in ate least 1 of those 50 years.

Can't disagree but I was speaking from strictly a Yankee perspective and the Rushmore comment.

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 07:23 AM
Interesting stat. Number of years each short stop was over a 5.0 WAR player.

Cal Ripken 8
Barry Larkin 6
Ozzie Smith 6
Derek Jeter 5

duncan_idaho
09-26-2014, 07:28 AM
My thoughts on Jeter:

He was a great player, one of the top 5 shortstops of all time (Wagner in a tier by himself, Ripken, A-Rod, Larkin also in the mix). His ability to deliver in the postseason and clutch situations was outstanding, he was a difficult out, and he was a big piece of the Yankee mystique.

I think that, for as much of his career as his defense was overrated, the impact of how bad is defense was is now being significantly overrated.

Yes, he was about 9.5 WAR below replacement for his career (9.7 bWAR and 9.4 fWAR, respectively). But people seem to be forgetting that WAR is a counting stat. Jeter played 20 seasons, so that DWAR works out to about -0.5 for his career. Considering his offensive prowess, that's a liveable figure.

Jeter retiring is really strange for me. I was 11 when he debuted in the major leagues. He's the last really "great" player of my adolescent years (other than A-Rod), so this feels like the end of an era.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 07:43 AM
Also given Cano played 2nd there was awhile, I'm not sure where you could have moved him to. 3rd?
Cano actually started his career at short. Wonder if he could have played third.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 07:47 AM
My thoughts on Jeter:

He was a great player, one of the top 5 shortstops of all time (Wagner in a tier by himself, Ripken, A-Rod, Larkin also in the mix). His ability to deliver in the postseason and clutch situations was outstanding, he was a difficult out, and he was a big piece of the Yankee mystique.

I think that, for as much of his career as his defense was overrated, the impact of how bad is defense was is now being significantly overrated.

Yes, he was about 9.5 WAR below replacement for his career (9.7 bWAR and 9.4 fWAR, respectively). But people seem to be forgetting that WAR is a counting stat. Jeter played 20 seasons, so that DWAR works out to about -0.5 for his career. Considering his offensive prowess, that's a liveable figure.

Jeter retiring is really strange for me. I was 11 when he debuted in the major leagues. He's the last really "great" player of my adolescent years (other than A-Rod), so this feels like the end of an era.
The other problem with career war is that older shortstops are going to have worse wars. Shortstop play dramatically declines with age. Jeter has 7 years in his career where he was too old to be playing the position and it showed.

To jesters disadvantage, war also has a level of subjectivity. Jeter didn't have the range of most shortstops. So a lot of hits where Jeter was nowhere close to the ball may have been fielded by a very good shortstop. It's said that Jeter was excellent early in his career fielding the balls he got to. But fielding percentage doesn't account for ground balls that are slightly out of usual range.

Reerun_KC
09-26-2014, 07:51 AM
Have zero feelings for Jeter. Neither on or off the field...

jenksme
09-26-2014, 09:15 AM
F Jeter and F the Yankees!!! F any Yankee!!!

Ebolapox
09-26-2014, 09:27 AM
sing it with me:

o-ver-ra-ted (clap clap-clapclapclap)

lcarus
09-26-2014, 09:46 AM
Derek Jeter is the best bachelor of all time. How he has managed to bang so much hot pussy and remain uncommitted is really something to admire. He is my hero in so many ways for that. I love Derek Jeter.

And to be that guy and not come off as really douchey at all is impressive. A man whore with class. I like it.

gblowfish
09-26-2014, 09:50 AM
It's a shame he had to die.




What?





He's not dead?





Then what's all the fuss???


I agree with Olbermann completely:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/__UJ9VZB508" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jallmon
09-26-2014, 10:03 AM
The thing is, had Bonds not taken steroids, he would have been in the discussion among the all time greats, because he was as complete a player as any in baseball before he started the steroids.

This is what I will NEVER understand. Why in the world take a perfectly good, HoF career and contaminate it with steroids? He was widely respected and admired by people in general.

He was not well liked in the clubhouse, and some Bucs fans I know have some terrible stories of things he's done to kids wanting autographs. But some of the all-time greats have those same issues.

Never heard of any of that with Jeter, though. Always classy. Hope he stays around baseball.

gblowfish
09-26-2014, 10:06 AM
This is what I will NEVER understand. Why in the world take a perfectly good, HoF career and contaminate it with steroids? He was widely respected and admired by people in general.

He was not well liked in the clubhouse, and some Bucs fans I know have some terrible stories of things he's done to kids wanting autographs. But some of the all-time greats have those same issues.

Never heard of any of that with Jeter, though. Always classy. Hope he stays around baseball.

Bonds wouldn't have been Bonds without the PEDs. That's why.

Pestilence
09-26-2014, 10:06 AM
I can't find it now....but there was a tweet yesterday recalling a story of a girl who had dated Jeter coming home to him laying naked on the couch watching highlights of himself and hitting his chest with his fist screaming "WAY TO GO, JEETS! WAY TO GO!".

lcarus
09-26-2014, 10:08 AM
I can't find it now....but there was a tweet yesterday recalling a story of a girl who had dated Jeter coming home to him laying naked on the couch watching highlights of himself and hitting his chest with his fist screaming "WAY TO GO, JEETS! WAY TO GO!".

I'm not really a fan of Jeter, nor do I dislike him, but that just sounds like bullshit to me.

Pestilence
09-26-2014, 10:13 AM
I'm not really a fan of Jeter, nor do I dislike him, but that just sounds like bullshit to me.

I didn't say that it was true. I just found it funny.

GloryDayz
09-26-2014, 10:16 AM
Middle ground on him, mostly because the team and city he plays in/for, and says he likes. So nothing overly personal, and I think he's rather swell, but I'm ready for this year-long exit-stage-left to be done.

And the shit about not playing in Boston "so that his last game was in Yankee stadium" is shit. Like he's getting out of baseball! Sure! It made him some sort of drama-queen...

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 10:19 AM
This is what I will NEVER understand. Why in the world take a perfectly good, HoF career and contaminate it with steroids? He was widely respected and admired by people in general.

He was not well liked in the clubhouse, and some Bucs fans I know have some terrible stories of things he's done to kids wanting autographs. But some of the all-time greats have those same issues.

Never heard of any of that with Jeter, though. Always classy. Hope he stays around baseball.
Arod too.

But let's be clear about something. Bonds was an asshole. But he wasn't a media darling which made him look like a media darling. Jeter is a player yet his private life was never scrutinized the way arods was. Bonds is an asshole but David Ortiz is also a colossal asshole but gets a pass because the media treats him like their darling. The personality of a player is heavily influenced by the way the media wants to spin it. If the media had it out for Jeter, I'd bet there'd be enough dirt to do it.

Mennonite
09-26-2014, 10:20 AM
How do I feel about Derek Jeter? Itchy. And there is a definite burning sensation.

/Jessica Alba

Count Zarth
09-26-2014, 10:54 AM
I can't find it now....but there was a tweet yesterday recalling a story of a girl who had dated Jeter coming home to him laying naked on the couch watching highlights of himself and hitting his chest with his fist screaming "WAY TO GO, JEETS! WAY TO GO!".

I like to read my old posts on Chiefsplanet and do that.

GloryDayz
09-26-2014, 03:01 PM
Is he gone yet? Is it safe to come out?

WhiteWhale
09-26-2014, 04:01 PM
Yes, that's true.

And I still think it's an interesting theory that steroids may not enhance performance nearly as much as people think it does. There are a lot of people who think that juiced balls might have more to do with the power hitting of the steroid era than steroids. If that's the case, then all steroids may have done is make Bonds slower--he was not only a power hitter, but also extremely fast.

Every analysis done shows that steroids helped pitchers more than hitters.

Also... batting averages dropped pretty dramatically not after the steroid ban... but after the amphetamine ban.

thurman merman
09-26-2014, 04:34 PM
It's a shame he had to die.




What?





He's not dead?





Then what's all the fuss???


I agree with Olbermann completely:

<iframe width="560" height="315" 9iallowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah, that Olbermann rant was spot on. Jeter is far and away the most overrated baseball player in history. He was good player. A very good player. But do we really need to have a ceremony celebrating him at every single stadium and nationally televise every single at-bat of his .255/.302/.312 season?

Deberg_1990
09-26-2014, 04:39 PM
Did anyone watch the post game thing last night?


It felt a little "staged" to me. Jeter went out to SS and Bowed downed and said a prayer. WTF? Did other star players do this when they retired?


Just too much overblown staged crap. How about just bowing out gracefully and quietly

SeeingRed
09-26-2014, 04:41 PM
Did anyone watch the post game thing last night?


It felt a little "staged" to me. Jeter went out to SS and Bowed downed and said a prayer. WTF? Did other star players do this when they retired?


Just too much overblown staged crap. How about just bowing out gracefully?

come on...u saw the all star game...like it or not this guy is Iconic....even bigger than Mariano

penbook
09-26-2014, 04:44 PM
come on...u saw the all star game...like it or not this guy is Iconic....even bigger than Mariano

This

penbook
09-26-2014, 04:44 PM
If you hate Derek Jeter you hate America

WhawhaWhat
09-26-2014, 04:52 PM
Fuck Derek Jeter. Apparently being above average and playing for a long time deserves a national parade and wall-to-wall coverage on ESPN.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 05:12 PM
Yeah, that Olbermann rant was spot on. Jeter is far and away the most overrated baseball player in history. He was good player. A very good player. But do we really need to have a ceremony celebrating him at every single stadium and nationally televise every single at-bat of his .255/.302/.312 season?
Olberman can go fuck himself. We are really going to take stock in this whiny douche's opinion? Jeter isn't overrated. Overpublicized? Sure.

CoMoChief
09-26-2014, 05:24 PM
Overrated. There are other SS I would rather have on my team besides him.


guy was clutch when it counted though. I'll give the guy credit for that.

Deberg_1990
09-26-2014, 05:26 PM
Nomar Garciapara > Jeter

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 05:36 PM
Nomar Garciapara > Jeter

Played 150+ games three times in his career. Hell of a hitter on the gas, but unreliable as hell.

Garciaparra was a slightly better offensive player over, 124 wRC+ to 119, but Jeter was much better on the basepaths (4x as many SB), substantially more reliable, and put up 32 more WAR than Backwards Ramon over the course of their careers.

KCwolf
09-26-2014, 05:39 PM
KO should've stuck w/MSNBC

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 05:40 PM
The second best SS in baseball this year according to WAR has been Erick Aybar, at 4.0. Jeter averaged better than that over the course of his career. That's some pretty amazing sustained excellence. He was never the best player in baseball, but he was a consistently excellent player at the second toughest position on the field.

GloucesterChief
09-26-2014, 05:42 PM
**** Derek Jeter. Apparently being above average and playing for a long time deserves a national parade and wall-to-wall coverage on ESPN.

Also if you played in New York.

If Jeter played the same career in say Houston, Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, Pittsburgh, or San Diego he would be seen as a good player that played a long time. No breathless hagiographies and ceremonies at every stadium. He also probably would of been moved from SS to another position a couple years ago.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 05:43 PM
Also if you played in New York.

If Jeter played the same career in say Houston, Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, Pittsburgh, or San Diego he would be seen as a good player that played a long time. No breathless hagiographies and ceremonies at every stadium. He also probably would of been moved from SS to another position a couple years ago.

If he played in St. Louis, Tony LaRussa would have benched him for Royce Clayton.

Also, Jeter was almost drafted by the Astros. The guy who scouted him quit when they passed on him.

Start Croyle
09-26-2014, 05:45 PM
Also if you played in New York.

If Jeter played the same career in say Houston, Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, Pittsburgh, or San Diego he would be seen as a good player that played a long time. No breathless hagiographies and ceremonies at every stadium. He also probably would of been moved from SS to another position a couple years ago.

Well, if he was still the captain on 5 world series winning teams in Houston, Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, Pittsburgh or San Diego I think he'd get the hype no matter what.

GloucesterChief
09-26-2014, 05:53 PM
Well, if he was still the captain on 5 world series winning teams in Houston, Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, Pittsburgh or San Diego I think he'd get the hype no matter what.

Had to do more with the Yankees being able to spend and surround with talent and retain any talent they developed then with Jeter's ability.

The Yankees could afford to keep Jeter, Pettitte, Bernie Williams, Posada, and Riveria. They could also afford to bring in Tino Martinez, David Cone, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Chuck Knoblauch, and David Wells.

Jeter played on teams that were flush with talent.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 05:57 PM
Had to do more with the Yankees being able to spend and surround with talent and retain any talent they developed then with Jeter's ability.

The Yankees could afford to keep Jeter, Pettitte, Bernie Williams, Posada, and Riveria. They could also afford to bring in Tino Martinez, David Cone, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Chuck Knoblauch, and David Wells.

Jeter played on teams that were flush with talent.
It had more to do with it? Really?

GoChargers
09-26-2014, 06:16 PM
Can Jeter please shut the fuck up and go away? It's like nobody's ever retired before. Props to Paul Konerko for just retiring instead of putting us all through a self-indulgent year-long farewell tour.

lewdog
09-26-2014, 06:19 PM
I was really surprised when I saw Jeter's career OPS. That was higher than I expected.

Rain Man
09-26-2014, 07:10 PM
I just looked up his stats and do not understand why he's a big deal.

vailpass
09-26-2014, 07:27 PM
The second best SS in baseball this year according to WAR has been Erick Aybar, at 4.0. Jeter averaged better than that over the course of his career. That's some pretty amazing sustained excellence. He was never the best player in baseball, but he was a consistently excellent player at the second toughest position on the field.

Dof my fedora to your baseball acumen...

Deberg_1990
09-26-2014, 07:30 PM
I just looked up his stats and do not understand why he's a big deal.

Because the media tells us he is damnit!

vailpass
09-26-2014, 07:32 PM
Because the media tells us he is damnit!

Played solid ball and dated multiple dimes under the New York spotlight with nary a smudge...

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 07:40 PM
If you could pick any athlete's career, it would be hard to top Jeter. He's slayed some of the top women in the world, is going to finish top five in hits, is able to be a serial bachelor without any complaints, made $250 million from playing alone, won five championships, and he's going to leave the game without a chronic degenerative brain disease or in need of multiple joint replacements.

Count Zarth
09-26-2014, 07:42 PM
If you could pick any athlete's career, it would be hard to top Jeter. He's slayed some of the top women in the world, is going to finish top five in hits, is able to be a serial bachelor without any complaints, made $250 million from playing alone, won five championships, and he's going to leave the game without a chronic degenerative brain disease or in need of multiple joint replacements.

He's bald and has herpes. No thanks.

vailpass
09-26-2014, 07:48 PM
He's bald and has herpes. No thanks.

Everyone had the herp brother...

Hootie 2.0
09-26-2014, 07:59 PM
If you could pick any athlete's career, it would be hard to top Jeter. He's slayed some of the top women in the world, is going to finish top five in hits, is able to be a serial bachelor without any complaints, made $250 million from playing alone, won five championships, and he's going to leave the game without a chronic degenerative brain disease or in need of multiple joint replacements.
I'd say the proudest two people in the world yesterday were Mr and Mrs Jeter and rightfully so

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 08:01 PM
He's bald and has herpes. No thanks.

He can get the John Cusack/Nic Cage/Jeremy Piven hair treatment that LeBron used this summer.

Al Bundy
09-26-2014, 08:09 PM
Overrated, not even the best player on those world series championship teams.

thurman merman
09-26-2014, 08:18 PM
Olberman can go **** himself. We are really going to take stock in this whiny douche's opinion? Jeter isn't overrated. Overpublicized? Sure.

Yes, he is overrated. There are literally people who think he is one of the top five greatest players in Major League history. He's not even in the top five Yankees, let alone MLB. Probably not even in the top 10 Yankees.

ChiefsHawk
09-26-2014, 08:18 PM
Overrated, not even the best player on those world series championship teams.

Top 6 career hits and one of the good guys...yeah he's overrated :doh!:

thurman merman
09-26-2014, 08:21 PM
Top 6 career hits and one of the good guys...yeah he's overrated :doh!:

"Good guys"? What exactly does that mean?

lewdog
09-26-2014, 08:23 PM
Overrated, not even the best player on those world series championship teams.

Yes, he is overrated. There are literally people who think he is one of the top five greatest players in Major League history. He's not even in the top five Yankees, let alone MLB. Probably not even in the top 10 Yankees.

This and this.

Good player but very over-rated due to the longevity of his career and not much more.

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 08:28 PM
This and this.

Good player but very over-rated due to the longevity of his career and not much more.

Yeah, I posted it earlier, but Ozzie Smith had more seasons of over 5 WAR than Jeter. He's good... probably 3rd-4th best SS in the last 30 years, but people tend to get carried away with how great guys are when it comes time for them to retire. Later on common sense kicks in after the emotions have died down. They teed it up for Olberman to knock it out of the park.

Setsuna
09-26-2014, 08:53 PM
Some jealous little pricks in this thread. Par the course for CP. If he played for KC Royals yall would be naming every single sub forum after him. Stop embarrassing yourselves.

Mike in SW-MO
09-26-2014, 09:04 PM
He is a Yankee & therefore a minion of Satan.

Other than that I have nothing against the man.

Al Bundy
09-26-2014, 10:02 PM
"Good guys"? What exactly does that mean?

Probably because of all of his charity work, never got caught up in any PED scandal and didn't commit any crimes.

GloucesterChief
09-26-2014, 10:44 PM
Yeah, I posted it earlier, but Ozzie Smith had more seasons of over 5 WAR than Jeter. He's good... probably 3rd-4th best SS in the last 30 years, but people tend to get carried away with how great guys are when it comes time for them to retire. Later on common sense kicks in after the emotions have died down. They teed it up for Olberman to knock it out of the park.

The last 30? He comes behind

Smith
Larkin
Trammell
Ripken Jr
Yount
Vizquel

BigCatDaddy
09-26-2014, 10:54 PM
The last 30? He comes behind

Smith
Larkin
Trammell
Ripken Jr
Yount
Vizquel

Vizquel was only had one season over a 5 WAR so I'd say no on him. Yount switched to the outfield in 84 so we are splitting hairs on the time frame a bit and his best years came when he was in the OF so I say no on him, and yeah Trammell is probably ahead of him though. I'll give you one of those 3.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 10:56 PM
The last 30? He comes behind

Smith
Larkin
Trammell
Ripken Jr
Yount
Vizquel

Is this a serious post? Vizquel and Smith couldn't hit. Robin Yount was a terrible fielder and wasn't a better hitter than Jeter. Trammell was a wildly inconsistent hitter. 4 of those guys don't belong on that list. Not even close.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 10:59 PM
Jeter is 5th all-time in WAR from SS. The only player above him who has played in the last 80 years is Ripken.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 11:01 PM
Yes, he is overrated. There are literally people who think he is one of the top five greatest players in Major League history. He's not even in the top five Yankees, let alone MLB. Probably not even in the top 10 Yankees.

I don't think I've heard a single person say this. Nobody is overrating his play. People are overpublicizing him, but as many have said, it's largely because he stayed out of trouble, was good to the media and fans, and completely steered away from PEDs. Mariano Rivera obviously deserved more fanfare, but he didn't have the charisma and personality Jeter had. Jeter had huge marketability that nobody in baseball really has right now.

chiefzilla1501
09-26-2014, 11:17 PM
I just looked up his stats and do not understand why he's a big deal.

You could say the same for Joe Montana too.

Jeter's regular season play was hall of fame worthy. His play in the clutch solidifies him as something much better. Jeter has 600+ at bats in the postseason. His numbers in the postseason and the clutch are unremarkable. What's remarkable is that he is the same exact hitter in clutch (considered "high leverage" situations) and in the playoffs as he is in the regular season. His numbers are pretty much identical.

We can "ooh" and "ahh" over guys who hit walk-off home runs or hits. But Jeter's consistency in the clutch is really remarkable. He's a .310 hitter in the postseason and hit over .300 in 10 of the 16 postseasons he's played in.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-26-2014, 11:20 PM
Jeter's numbers are tremendous. Looking at HR and RBI numbers and thinking they tell the story about a player's value is antiquated.

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 12:18 AM
Jeter's numbers are tremendous. Looking at HR and RBI numbers and thinking they tell the story about a player's value is antiquated.

Yup. Even when you look at Jeter's overall numbers, they're all tremendous for a shortstop. Avg, HRs, runs, stolen bases. Take away his massive defense decline in his latter years, and his fielding is solid but unspectacular as well. That's without the postseason and clutch stuff factored in.

Param
09-27-2014, 04:47 AM
I don't hate Jeter, as he was DRAFTED by the Yankees. I'd hate him if he was another FA pickup. Since, he was a draftee, played his whole career in pinstripes, won several WS, and now has over 3000 hits. Nothing but respect for him, from me.

Career .309 batting avg, 260 HR's, 1310 RBI's. He's been with the same team in MLB since 1995, plus played 4 years of minor league ball.

The guy did it. 1st Ballot HOF.

ChiefsBrandon
09-27-2014, 06:39 AM
If he played for the Pirates for the last 20 years he wouldn't nearly be as worshiped as he is today by baseball as a whole. He's slightly overrated in that sense.

BUT, he was a very good player who got the job done. There aren't many people who can say with a straight face that they wouldn't have taken Derek Jeter for his career.

Deberg_1990
09-27-2014, 07:09 AM
I wonder if A-Rod will get a farewell tour?

Deberg_1990
09-27-2014, 07:11 AM
If he played for the Pirates for the last 20 years he wouldn't nearly be as worshiped as he is today by baseball as a whole. He's slightly overrated in that sense.

BUT, he was a very good player who got the job done. There aren't many people who can say with a straight face that they wouldn't have taken Derek Jeter for his career.

Yea, I don't think many would argue he's not great or not a Hall of Famer

It's more ranting against this silly farewell tour nonsense. Many, many other great players never got that, why is Jeter so special?

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 07:17 AM
Yea, I don't think many would argue he's not great or not a Hall of Famer

It's more ranting against this silly farewell tour nonsense. Many, many other great players never got that, why is Jeter so special?

http://time.com/3426397/baseballs-derek-jeter-problem/
This tells you everything you need to know. When Jeter leaves, Major League Baseball has an enormous marketing problem and everybody knows it. The guy plays in the biggest market in all of sports, did it for 20 years, and kept himself clean in a tainted era. He also happens to be a hall of famer with insane postseason success. Mariano Rivera was a far better player, but Jeter is the face of baseball. Like it or not.

baitism
09-27-2014, 07:55 AM
Some of you act like he fucked your mom (he probably did).

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2014, 04:37 PM
Is this a serious post? Vizquel and Smith couldn't hit. Robin Yount was a terrible fielder and wasn't a better hitter than Jeter. Trammell was a wildly inconsistent hitter. 4 of those guys don't belong on that list. Not even close.

Ozzie defense was so sick that it more than made up for his light bat. He actually had more season of 5 WAR according to fangraphs than Jeter did. There is more to a player than just batting average especially as such a premier defensive position. That being said if I got first pick I'm taking Larkin. He was the most well rounded of the group of elite guys over the past 30 years. If people think Jeter was clutch than they need to check out Larkin's numbers. He just didn't do what he did in the regular season, but picked it up with an 862 OPS in the playoffs and 950 OPS in the world series. But when the most well known thing about the city you play in is WKRP everyone isn't chomping at the bit for the chance to wash your balls.

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 04:54 PM
Ozzie defense was so sick that it more than made up for his light bat. He actually had more season of 5 WAR according to fangraphs than Jeter did. There is more to a player than just batting average especially as such a premier defensive position. That being said if I got first pick I'm taking Larkin. He was the most well rounded of the group of elite guys over the past 30 years. If people think Jeter was clutch than they need to check out Larkin's numbers. He just didn't do what he did in the regular season, but picked it up with an 862 OPS in the playoffs and 950 OPS in the world series. But when the most well known thing about the city you play in is WKRP everyone isn't chomping at the bit for the chance to wash your balls.

That's the reason I didn't throw Larkin in there. Jeter's clutch success is more impressive because he had so many at bats and consistently came through, but Larkin was the same hitter as Jeter but a much better fielder. I'd put Larkin and Ripken ahead of Jeter.

Ozzie, there's just no way you put him in front of those guys. I'd love to have Ozzie on my team, but I don't think there are many outside of St. Louis who would ever take Ozzie above Jeter. Ozzie was a spectacular fielder at an important position, but he was a very below average hitter. In general, I am not a fan at all of one-dimensional players, even if we're talking about shortstops and catchers.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-27-2014, 04:58 PM
Ozzie defense was so sick that it more than made up for his light bat. He actually had more season of 5 WAR according to fangraphs than Jeter did. There is more to a player than just batting average especially as such a premier defensive position. That being said if I got first pick I'm taking Larkin. He was the most well rounded of the group of elite guys over the past 30 years. If people think Jeter was clutch than they need to check out Larkin's numbers. He just didn't do what he did in the regular season, but picked it up with an 862 OPS in the playoffs and 950 OPS in the world series. But when the most well known thing about the city you play in is WKRP everyone isn't chomping at the bit for the chance to wash your balls.

Barry Larkin played in four World Series games. That's a ridiculously small sample size. The reason why you can make a legitimate claim that Jeter is clutch is because he played in so goddamned many playoff games while still maintaining elite production.

Larkin was also far less durable than Jeter and his wRC+, although almost identical to Jeter, occurred in the NL. In effect, Jeter was a better offensive player, too.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-27-2014, 05:02 PM
That's the reason I didn't throw Larkin in there. Jeter's clutch success is more impressive because he had so many at bats and consistently came through, but Larkin was the same hitter as Jeter but a much better fielder. I'd put Larkin and Ripken ahead of Jeter.

Ozzie, there's just no way you put him in front of those guys. I'd love to have Ozzie on my team, but I don't think there are many outside of St. Louis who would ever take Ozzie above Jeter. Ozzie was a spectacular fielder at an important position, but he was a very below average hitter. In general, I am not a fan at all of one-dimensional players, even if we're talking about shortstops and catchers.

He was not a very below average hitter. He was 10% below league average for his career. What is interesting about Ozzie isn't that his late career numbers dragged down his career averages, but that his early career numbers did.

His first six years he was one of the worst hitters in baseball. After that, he transformed into a slightly above average hitter.

Still, same WAR over the same number of years as Larkin. Inferior hitter, but one of the top two defensive SS of all time, and a better baserunner than the other two by far.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2014, 05:05 PM
That's the reason I didn't throw Larkin in there. Jeter's clutch success is more impressive because he had so many at bats and consistently came through, but Larkin was the same hitter as Jeter but a much better fielder. I'd put Larkin and Ripken ahead of Jeter.

Ozzie, there's just no way you put him in front of those guys. I'd love to have Ozzie on my team, but I don't think there are many outside of St. Louis who would ever take Ozzie above Jeter. Ozzie was a spectacular fielder at an important position, but he was a very below average hitter. In general, I am not a fan at all of one-dimensional players, even if we're talking about shortstops and catchers.

I think the average fan thinks the way you to about Ozzie, but value is value regardless of which numbers you use. The bottom line is Ozzie was just as valuable player as Jeter, it's just that you are placing more value on offensive production. Taking hits/runs away is just as valuable as producing them. WAR takes the entire package into consideration and if it wasn't for WAR I don't think Ozzie would get his due now that he deserves.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2014, 05:07 PM
Barry Larkin played in four World Series games. That's a ridiculously small sample size. The reason why you can make a legitimate claim that Jeter is clutch is because he played in so goddamned many playoff games while still maintaining elite production.

Larkin was also far less durable than Jeter and his wRC+, although almost identical to Jeter, occurred in the NL. In effect, Jeter was a better offensive player, too.

Right, but very few guys are surrounded by a 200 million dollar all star team their entire career and have a chance to accumulate such a sample size in the post season.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-27-2014, 05:14 PM
Right, but very few guys are surrounded by a 200 million dollar all star team their entire career and have a chance to accumulate such a sample size in the post season.

So, because Barry Larkin didn't play in as many WS games we are safe to assume that he would have continued to produce a 950 OPS, based upon a sample of four games?

Makes sense.

Also, that Yankee dynasty was not built upon free agency but an elite farm system that could only have existed because Steinbrenner was banned from baseball and Stick Mitchell constructed it from nothing.

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 05:18 PM
He was not a very below average hitter. He was 10% below league average for his career. What is interesting about Ozzie isn't that his late career numbers dragged down his career averages, but that his early career numbers did.

His first six years he was one of the worst hitters in baseball. After that, he transformed into a slightly above average hitter.

Still, same WAR over the same number of years as Larkin. Inferior hitter, but one of the top two defensive SS of all time, and a better baserunner than the other two by far.

It's probably fair to call him a shade below a .280 hitter with 2 HRs and 30 SBs at his peak. For a Shortstop, that's not terrible. But when you're comparing him to hall of famers, that's definitely below average. Agree he was an outstanding baserunner and elite defensive shortstop. He earned his spot in the Hall on those merits.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-27-2014, 05:21 PM
It's probably fair to call him a shade below a .280 hitter with 2 HRs and 30 SBs at his peak. For a Shortstop, that's not terrible. But when you're comparing him to hall of famers, that's definitely below average. Agree he was an outstanding baserunner and elite defensive shortstop. He earned his spot in the Hall on those merits.

He's certainly below average offensively compared to HOF'ers, but that is irrelevant to his total value.

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 05:24 PM
I think the average fan thinks the way you to about Ozzie, but value is value regardless of which numbers you use. The bottom line is Ozzie was just as valuable player as Jeter, it's just that you are placing more value on offensive production. Taking hits/runs away is just as valuable as producing them. WAR takes the entire package into consideration and if it wasn't for WAR I don't think Ozzie would get his due now that he deserves.

I think everybody places more value on offensive production, and they should. I am glad Ozzie got credit for his defense. Much like Pudge (who was a bad hitter early in his career). And much like Trout continues to get snubbed for some dumbshit reason even though he's an outstanding defender.

But if we're talking about the best of the best, you've got to hold some small weight on the opposite side of the ball. Ozzie was an elite fielder, an average hitter with absolutely no power, and an outstanding baserunner. Jeter was solid but unspectacular on the field, an excellent hitter with above average pop for a shortstop, excellent on the bases. A very multi-dimensional shortstop.

vailpass
09-27-2014, 06:36 PM
I think everybody places more value on offensive production, and they should. I am glad Ozzie got credit for his defense. Much like Pudge (who was a bad hitter early in his career). And much like Trout continues to get snubbed for some dumbshit reason even though he's an outstanding defender.

But if we're talking about the best of the best, you've got to hold some small weight on the opposite side of the ball. Ozzie was an elite fielder, an average hitter with absolutely no power, and an outstanding baserunner. Jeter was solid but unspectacular on the field, an excellent hitter with above average pop for a shortstop, excellent on the bases. A very multi-dimensional shortstop.

Spot on...

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2014, 06:50 PM
I think everybody places more value on offensive production, and they should. I am glad Ozzie got credit for his defense. Much like Pudge (who was a bad hitter early in his career). And much like Trout continues to get snubbed for some dumbshit reason even though he's an outstanding defender.

But if we're talking about the best of the best, you've got to hold some small weight on the opposite side of the ball. Ozzie was an elite fielder, an average hitter with absolutely no power, and an outstanding baserunner. Jeter was solid but unspectacular on the field, an excellent hitter with above average pop for a shortstop, excellent on the bases. A very multi-dimensional shortstop.

We aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. You obviously undervalue defense and it's value which is why I keep referencing WAR because it is objective. You are subjective to what you value, but WAR has no preference. Your value is what your value is no matter if it's as elite defender, home run hitter or guy that hits for average. It takes everything into consideration and tells you what you are. You seem to like offense so you are bias towards offensive players.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2014, 06:52 PM
So, because Barry Larkin didn't play in as many WS games we are safe to assume that he would have continued to produce a 950 OPS, based upon a sample of four games?

Makes sense.

Also, that Yankee dynasty was not built upon free agency but an elite farm system that could only have existed because Steinbrenner was banned from baseball and Stick Mitchell constructed it from nothing.

I have no clue as to what he he would have done if given the chance. That goes with a lot of players.

It was a combination of both and their ability to resign their elite farm system guys factored in as well. Very few teams could have done that.

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 07:35 PM
We aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. You obviously undervalue defense and it's value which is why I keep referencing WAR because it is objective. You are subjective to what you value, but WAR has no preference. Your value is what your value is no matter if it's as elite defender, home run hitter or guy that hits for average. It takes everything into consideration and tells you what you are. You seem to like offense so you are bias towards offensive players.

WAR isn't objective. Nobody seems to know how it's actually calculated and it's not accurate. Even the most gung ho sabermetrics people will tell you you have to account for +/- 1 when doing the calculation because there's so much error in the calculation.

I think Ozzie was an excellent player. But hitting 28 career home runs isn't some small thing. That's a really low number for any hall of famer and it's not something that can be easily overlooked and it's not like he's countering that with a .300+ average. For Jeter, fielding was the only thing he couldn't do and in his peak years, he wasn't that bad at it. Jeter's WAR numbers get dinged big time because he was sloppy early in his career (remember, he started playing at 20) and really lost his step late in his career. Any sensible team would have moved him to a position like 2B in the back end of his career.

KC_Connection
09-27-2014, 07:54 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/EbRo_anmIDc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I feel like the stonemason about Jeter.

'Hamas' Jenkins
09-27-2014, 07:57 PM
WAR isn't objective. Nobody seems to know how it's actually calculated and it's not accurate. Even the most gung ho sabermetrics people will tell you you have to account for +/- 1 when doing the calculation because there's so much error in the calculation.

.

That is completely wrong.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

runnercyclist
09-27-2014, 08:01 PM
He is a Yankee so I don't like him

chiefzilla1501
09-27-2014, 08:24 PM
That is completely wrong.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

What was wrong with what I said? In this case, there are two interpretations of what WAR really means. And even the creator of the fWar score warns against trying to use it to make close comparisons. As the author says, it's meant to compare all stars to non all stars. It's not meant to compare two mostly close in comparison all stars and determine which is better.