PDA

View Full Version : Life San Francisco trying to ban the sales of all animals.


BIG_DADDY
06-26-2011, 11:19 PM
By Maria L. La Ganga, Los Angeles Times

June 26, 2011, 6:29 p.m.
Reporting from San Francisco— The first vision was simple and straightforward: To curtail puppy mills and kitten factories, the sale of cats and dogs should be banned in San Francisco, where the loving guardians of animal companions come to regular blows — politically — with the loving parents of children.

The ban was put on hold last year after animal advocates broadened it to include anything with fur or feathers. Now it's back, with a new name and a new strategy: More is more. The Humane Pet Acquisition Proposal is on its way to the Board of Supervisors, and it hopes to protect everything from Great Danes to goldfish.
Yes, goldfish. And guppies, gobies, gouramies, glowlight tetras, German blue rams. No fish, no fowl, no reptiles, no amphibians, no cats, no dogs, no gerbils, no rats. If it flies, crawls, runs, swims or slithers, you would not be able to buy it in the city named for the patron saint of animals.

Representatives of the $45-billion to $50-billion-a-year pet industry call the San Francisco proposal "by far the most radical ban we've seen" nationwide and argue that it would force small operators to close. Animal activists say it will save small but important lives, along with taxpayer money, and end needless suffering.

"Why fish? Why not fish?" said Philip Gerrie, a member of the city's Commission of Animal Control and Welfare and a coauthor of the proposal. "From Descartes on up, in the Western mindset, fish and other nonhuman animals don't have feelings, they don't have emotions, we can do whatever we want to them. If we considered them living beings, we would deal with them differently.… Our culture sanctions this, treating them as commodities and expendable."

The commission voted earlier this month to send a proposal to the Board of Supervisors recommending a ban on the sale of all pets in the city to shore up the adoption of unwanted creatures from shelters and rescue organizations. Commissioners are now looking for a supervisor or two to sponsor such an ordinance.

Snake food was almost exempt from the proposal. After all, pythons have to eat, and they like their lunch alive. But at a heated meeting, Commissioner Pam Hemphill questioned how it could be humane to sell live animals to be fed to other live animals.

"If a snake is caught with a rodent in a box, the rodent can scratch its eye and cause an infection," said Hemphill, who noted that reptiles on display at the California Academy of Sciences eat dead, frozen prey. "The snake can't escape, and the rodent might be stuck for one or two days in the box with the snake because the snake's not hungry right then.

"So it doesn't seem very humane to me," she continued. "And if the frozen [food] works, then I think the killing of the animals to be food is probably more humane."

It is legal in San Francisco to sell live animals for eventual human consumption, and the proposed ban would not stop markets from selling live fish, poultry, turtles or seafood for that purpose.

Rebecca Katz, director of San Francisco Animal Care and Control, said her agency supports a ban on pet sales — particularly one that includes the so-called smalls, such as hamsters, which are euthanized at her city shelter at a higher percentage than any other domesticated animal. Although she did not advocate for the inclusion of fish, she is not against it.

"We're the agency that receives the old, filthy fish bowl with the goldfish at risk and have to determine whether we can make them healthy and adopt them out or flush them down the toilet," Katz said. "These are the lucky ones. Most people just flush them themselves."

Jennifer Scarlett, a veterinarian and co-president of the San Francisco SPCA, notes that only a handful of stores in San Francisco sell animals of any kind and that the effect of a ban would be largely symbolic. But she said that symbolism, and the conversation that it raises, is critical in improving the lives of millions of helpless creatures.

"For us as an organization, we've identified the larger problem of online purchasing of dogs, and we hope this is an avenue to get to that," she said. Still, when it comes to birds and fish, "there's a lot of cruelty around where they are sourced from. We see the cruelty."

But Jonathan Ito finds the proposal to be far more than symbolic. To the owner of Animal Connection — who has sold fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians, rats, mice and hamsters for a generation — the ban is a threat to his livelihood.

"It would put us out of business and our employees out of work," said Ito, who believes there is "no cause and effect" to the proposal.

Pet stores, he said, do not cause overcrowding at the shelters. They do not promote impulse buys of small, cute creatures that will later be tossed aside by bored children. And they work hard to educate prospective pet owners.

"The animal-rights activists are trying to drive a wedge any way they can in order to get a foothold on changing the ownership of animals," Ito said. "They don't believe they should be bred. They don't believe people are responsible to care for them.… They are about eliminating animals as pets."

CaliforniaChief
06-26-2011, 11:22 PM
This is the same city that's trying to make circumcision illegal and is at the front of the sanctuary city movement. Maybe WebGem can move there.

BIG_DADDY
06-26-2011, 11:32 PM
This is the same city that's trying to make circumcision illegal and is at the front of the sanctuary city movement. Maybe WebGem can move there.

It's not just this city. The HSUS is behind this big time on a national level with the countless millions they have raised deceiving people for decades now. This article doesn't go far enough, they are for the complete elimination of all domestic animals period, for pets or food. They are also for completely outlawing hunting. This includes PETA but the HSUS is the one with all the big money. Their people have infiltrated the other humane societies as well as the ASPCA. The HSUS's president is Wayne Parcells and he had been there a long time. Let me see if I can find some of his quotes.

“We would be foolish and silly not to unite with people in the public health sector, the environmental community, [and] unions, to try to challenge corporate agriculture.”
— “Animal Rights 2002” convention, Jul 2002


“We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States ... We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we will take it state by state.”
— Full Cry magazine, Oct 1990


“Our goal is to get sport hunting in the same category as cock fighting and dog fighting.”
— Bozeman (MT) Daily Chronicle, Oct 1991


“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding ...One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.”
— Animal People News, May 1993


“If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would.”
— Associated Press, Dec 1991

kysirsoze
06-26-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm against puppy mills and kitten factories, but that's about as far as I go. This is pretty ridiculous.

Rain Man
06-26-2011, 11:46 PM
Honestly, I don't think this is a bad idea. If people want pets, they should adopt from the shelters rather than buying from pet stores. Pet stores promote overbreeding, and you then end up with too many animals in inhumane conditions.

But first they should ban the sale of live animals for human consumption. I still have nightmares about what I saw on a walk through Chinatown, and I wouldn't live in San Francisco for precisely that reason. Those people are barbarians.

KCChiefsMan
06-26-2011, 11:57 PM
Banning puppy and kitten farms, yes. But the rest of that crap is retaaded

btlook1
06-27-2011, 01:14 AM
Banning puppy and kitten farms, yes. But the rest of that crap is retaaded

Exactly!!! I wonder when Cali is going to fall off in the ocean??

Silock
06-27-2011, 02:18 AM
I'm okay with this.

Rausch
06-27-2011, 02:21 AM
I'm okay with this.

We'll get to your rights later...

Sofa King
06-27-2011, 07:23 AM
Any chance we can extend the Mexican border wall to include California?

Iowanian
06-27-2011, 07:26 AM
Gerbil distributors are furiouth!

Frazod
06-27-2011, 08:00 AM
Please, somebody wall these fucking freaks off from the rest of the country.

Fish
06-27-2011, 08:22 AM
"So it doesn't seem very humane to me," she continued. "And if the frozen [food] works, then I think the killing of the animals to be food is probably more humane."

Fucking oversensitive whackos trying to apply their human sensitivities to fucking animals. Forcing animals who have been eating live prey for millions of years, to eat frozen food because they can't stand the thought of an animal suffering. I want to shoot these people in the face. They have this Disney Utopian outlook on life, and expect the world around them to conform to that. Except that the world around them plays by the same rules that it has for millions of years. Which includes a lot of cute little furry creatures serving as lunch for bigger creatures.

The fucked up thing is that if these damn nutjob animal lovers actually had their way, and could enforce what they want, pet overpopulation would be worse than it is now. The way of life these idiots are proposing is not sustainable.

HonestChieffan
06-27-2011, 08:27 AM
I re read the OP a few times. These people are simply nuts.

Demonpenz
06-27-2011, 08:56 AM
people are feeding their need to be loved by food and animals instead of fixing the real problem. Themselves. All I ever see is fat people around my place walking their dogs dropping 1 trisket for the dog and eating 5 for them. It makes me sick. I honestly just thought it was the dog making this squeeky noise, but it was this fat ass with navy shorts. His legs were rubbing together

Nightfyre
06-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Honestly, I don't think this is a bad idea. If people want pets, they should adopt from the shelters rather than buying from pet stores. Pet stores promote overbreeding, and you then end up with too many animals in inhumane conditions.

But first they should ban the sale of live animals for human consumption. I still have nightmares about what I saw on a walk through Chinatown, and I wouldn't live in San Francisco for precisely that reason. Those people are barbarians.

How exactly do pet stores promote overbreeding? Further, what about working animals such as bird dogs, working dogs or horses? You can't just adopt a mutt from the shelter and hope he is young enough to be trainable, has a good nose for birds and isn't gunshy already. This is ridiculous.

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:00 AM
Could SF be more liberal? This is stupid.

Demonpenz
06-27-2011, 09:02 AM
I don't care about bird dogs, people shouldn't be eating birds anyway. That is what veggies are for.

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:05 AM
I hope Wayne Parcells get a flesh-eating bacteria on his junk and dies.

People this crazy shouldn't be allowed to live.

Sofa King
06-27-2011, 09:07 AM
How exactly do pet stores promote overbreeding? Further, what about working animals such as bird dogs, working dogs or horses? You can't just adopt a mutt from the shelter and hope he is young enough to be trainable, has a good nose for birds and isn't gunshy already. This is ridiculous.

Uhhh... they want to ban hunting as well... all hunting.

Why the hell would they care if a dog you're adopting can hunt?

And most likely, in fact it's a certainty, they don't want your dogs to work on a farm or your horses.

Hell it's probably a bad thing to ride a damn horse...

2bikemike
06-27-2011, 09:11 AM
I wonder how many of these nut job animal rights activists have a problem with abortion?

Demonpenz
06-27-2011, 09:11 AM
babies are gross. especially when born. not cute animals, they are cute.

Demonpenz
06-27-2011, 09:16 AM
people on the coast tend to love animals and people in the midwest treat them as working animals, I remember this one dog looked at my uncle wrong so he threw the pup off a building.

Pestilence
06-27-2011, 09:18 AM
Seriously.....I'm about an hour away from San Francisco.....and I say nuke the entire place. I'd rather deal with the nuclear fallout than deal with that worthless fucking place. Just make sure you take out Oakland at the same time.

Detoxing
06-27-2011, 09:26 AM
Woo Hoo!

California bashing thread time!

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:27 AM
I wonder how many of these nut job animal rights activists have a problem with abortion?I bet not a single one.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 10:14 AM
How exactly do pet stores promote overbreeding? Further, what about working animals such as bird dogs, working dogs or horses? You can't just adopt a mutt from the shelter and hope he is young enough to be trainable, has a good nose for birds and isn't gunshy already. This is ridiculous.

You've got animals that need a home sitting in shelters, and you have pet stores telling puppy mills to send them another litter. That's a supply/demand mismatch.

Your point about specialty animals is legitimate, but that's probably 1 percent of pet store purchases. Most people just want a pet that can pull on the other end of the dog toy.

Rudy lost the toss
06-27-2011, 10:17 AM
Eh.... Breeders are mostly white trash anyway

JD10367
06-27-2011, 10:45 AM
I'm against puppy mills and kitten factories, but that's about as far as I go. This is pretty ridiculous.

This. The problem is the people raising and selling, and the people buying. It's pretty simple. Don't buy your ****ing cat or dog from a pet store. If you stop buying, they'll stop producing them. Go to an animal shelter. Even better, go online; there are countless organizations like Pet Pardons who list animals both young and old that are available. Hell, sometimes they'll even transport them for you. There's really no excuse in this day and age; no matter where you live, you can say, "I want a cat or dog of this age, this breed, this sex, and with these colorings," and within about 30 minutes you can probably find one up for adoption.

Banning the sale of all live animals is akin to banning hammers because stupid people hit themselves in the thumb with them.

vailpass
06-27-2011, 11:02 AM
Woo Hoo!

California bashing thread time!

They brought that shit on themselves.

vailpass
06-27-2011, 11:05 AM
You've got animals that need a home sitting in shelters, and you have pet stores telling puppy mills to send them another litter. That's a supply/demand mismatch.

Your point about specialty animals is legitimate, but that's probably 1 percent of pet store purchases. Most people just want a pet that can pull on the other end of the dog toy.

Some people want new not used. You don't know what issues a shelter pet has, your kids don't get to grow with them from puppy, etc. etc.
I'm all for shelter adoptions but there is no way the government should be able to tell people that is their only option.
FWIW I've never bought a dog from a store, only from breeders but I want my dog to be mine and never have been anyone else's.

Iowanian
06-27-2011, 11:07 AM
So...people want pure bred, quality animals, available as a pup/kitten when they decide to get one, but they're not supposed to be raised by breeders in bulk.

Got it.

KCUnited
06-27-2011, 11:09 AM
I don't ever want to feel like I did that day
Take me to the place I love, take me all the way

Under the bridge downtown
Is where I drew some blood
Under the bridge downtown
I gave my life away

/Dogs

Iowanian
06-27-2011, 11:13 AM
Billy's daddy can't buy him a turtle, but his sister who legally changed her name to "Cinnebuns" just walked across the street for the abortion clinic. She's had the 5 punches on her card from the previous visits so this one is free, but we can't have that poor turtle's pride injured.

Just Passin' By
06-27-2011, 11:47 AM
Wall it off and shoot anyone who tries to escape.

vailpass
06-27-2011, 11:55 AM
AIDS baths for everyone!!!

Okie_Apparition
06-27-2011, 12:04 PM
They'll be free range food for the zombies, while the rest of us ready the caves

FishingRod
06-27-2011, 02:26 PM
I don't care about bird dogs, people shouldn't be eating birds anyway. That is what veggies are for.

Is it ok to kill the bugs to keep them from eating the Veggies?

Easy 6
06-27-2011, 02:32 PM
No wonder Metallica was so damn angry, i would be too if i lived in Frisco.

JD10367
06-27-2011, 02:41 PM
No wonder Metallica was so damn angry, i would be too if i lived in Frisco.

I've never been to San Fran, but they do have a few cool things, it seems.

1.) Alcatraz.
2.) It's not Oakland.
3.) Ghirardhelli Chocolates.
4.) Kari Byron of "Mythbusters".
5.) Cable cars.
6.) Lombard Street.

Not sure I'd want to live there, based on some of the legislation, but I'd love to visit. Unfortunately it (and Seattle and Portland, two other places I want to go) are about as far away from me as you can get.

buddha
06-27-2011, 04:29 PM
Of all the really bad problems SF has, it is mind numbing that they are spending time on this. But why not continue being the laughing stock of the nation?

buddha
06-27-2011, 04:30 PM
I've never been to San Fran, but they do have a few cool things, it seems.

1.) Alcatraz.
2.) It's not Oakland.
3.) Ghirardhelli Chocolates.
4.) Kari Byron of "Mythbusters".
5.) Cable cars.
6.) Lombard Street.

Not sure I'd want to live there, based on some of the legislation, but I'd love to visit. Unfortunately it (and Seattle and Portland, two other places I want to go) are about as far away from me as you can get.

It's a wonderful city in so many ways. SF is just so cool. The government is so f'd up though, this crazy shit in the paper doesn't even begin to describe it.

BTW, downtown Oakland and Jack London Square are really nice.

vailpass
06-27-2011, 04:31 PM
I've never been to San Fran, but they do have a few cool things, it seems.

1.) Alcatraz.
2.) It's not Oakland.
3.) Ghirardhelli Chocolates.
4.) Kari Byron of "Mythbusters".
5.) Cable cars.
6.) Lombard Street.

Not sure I'd want to live there, based on some of the legislation, but I'd love to visit. Unfortunately it (and Seattle and Portland, two other places I want to go) are about as far away from me as you can get.

You would fit right in with the City by the Bay.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 05:19 PM
I may unintentionally ship this off to DC, but I have to ask a question.

You've got places like San Francisco and Berkeley and Madison and Boulder that are liberal to the extreme, and then you've got places like Montgomery and Jackson and Salt Lake City and, yes, Kansas City, that are conservative to the extreme.

And yet they all survive and they all have workers and residents and parks and traffic jams and people complaining about lawns and all that other stuff, and I get the impression that life really isn't that different on an everyday basis.

Is it possible that all of this political stuff really doesn't matter that much?

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 07:30 PM
I may unintentionally ship this off to DC, but I have to ask a question.

You've got places like San Francisco and Berkeley and Madison and Boulder that are liberal to the extreme, and then you've got places like Montgomery and Jackson and Salt Lake City and, yes, Kansas City, that are conservative to the extreme.

And yet they all survive and they all have workers and residents and parks and traffic jams and people complaining about lawns and all that other stuff, and I get the impression that life really isn't that different on an everyday basis.

Is it possible that all of this political stuff really doesn't matter that much?

It's not possible, it's reality. Just my humble opinion of course.

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 07:35 PM
Billy's daddy can't buy him a turtle, but his sister who legally changed her name to "Cinnebuns" just walked across the street for the abortion clinic. She's had the 5 punches on her card from the previous visits so this one is free, but we can't have that poor turtle's pride injured.

Well, a lot of animals (not dogs or cats or turtles) are endangered. Human beings are not.

Okie_Apparition
06-27-2011, 07:36 PM
Conservative & Liberal are both noble. Politicians **** up everything

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 07:37 PM
Regardless, most of the fringe-tards reside in Cali.

Just Passin' By
06-27-2011, 07:51 PM
I may unintentionally ship this off to DC, but I have to ask a question.

You've got places like San Francisco and Berkeley and Madison and Boulder that are liberal to the extreme, and then you've got places like Montgomery and Jackson and Salt Lake City and, yes, Kansas City, that are conservative to the extreme.

And yet they all survive and they all have workers and residents and parks and traffic jams and people complaining about lawns and all that other stuff, and I get the impression that life really isn't that different on an everyday basis.

Is it possible that all of this political stuff really doesn't matter that much?

Politics makes a huge difference.

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 07:58 PM
Politics makes a huge difference.

Actually there should never be any such thing as liberal or conservative issues - only American issues.

Actually, there should never be any such thing as American issues either, there should only be human being issues.

Until the extraterrestials or demons present themselves I'll stick with that.

Just Passin' By
06-27-2011, 08:00 PM
Actually there should never be any such thing as liberal or conservative issues - only American issues.

Actually, there should never be any such thing as American issues either, there should only be human being issues.

Until the extraterrestials or demons present themselves I'll stick with that.

Go troll someone else. I'm not going to be the one responsible for getting this thread DC'd.

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Go troll someone else. I'm not going to be the one responsible for getting this thread DC'd.

You wouldn't been, Rain Man would. and i'm not trollingm just bored and posting a lot. You don't have the right to tell me I can't troll anyway, you're not a mod. So stuff it.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 08:37 PM
Politics makes a huge difference.

National political systems do, I agree. Do they swamp state and local differences? Because I go to Boulder regularly, and on a day to day basis it doesn't seem that much different than St. Louis. You'd think if one philosophy was better than the other, we'd have people drinking from golden chalices in one type of city and begging in rags in the other type of city.

I think I may be having an epiphany. Politics don't matter. From this point on, I need never worry about political issues again.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 08:39 PM
You wouldn't been, Rain Man would. and i'm not trollingm just bored and posting a lot. You don't have the right to tell me I can't troll anyway, you're not a mod. So stuff it.

Dude, you're going to get me in trouble. I can't afford to get banned again.

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 08:40 PM
Dude, you're going to get me in trouble. I can't afford to get banned again.

Sorry, just blame me instead, I can hide behind the n00b defense for a little while longer. Hopefully.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 08:47 PM
Sorry, just blame me instead, I can hide behind the n00b defense for a little while longer. Hopefully.


Eh, that's what I do, too. I just fake an accent when I ask for mercy. They never recognize me.

KurtCobain
06-27-2011, 08:52 PM
NEG REP PILE ON RAINMAN

BIG_DADDY
06-27-2011, 08:52 PM
Regardless, most of the fringe-tards reside in Cali.

HSUS the epicenter of these fringe-tards as you put it is out of Washington DC. True BSL genocide got it's first traction out of Denver. PETA I believe is out of Virginia. The penetration into the regular HS and the ASPCA and giving these clowns law enforcement powers is national. The only reason I posted this is because when I posted the true goal of these wackos was to eliminate the domestic ownership on all animals as pets and livestock as well as outlawing all hunting, posters told me I was crazy.

Do I think they will reach their goal, of course not but they will keep pushing and controlling. The fact that the media gives them a free ride to blatantly mislead the public to raise millions more is inexcusable. From PETA gathering pets for adoption and exterminating them and throwing them in the garbage dumpster behind Safeway to the HSUS letting all the livestock die in the freezing cold in Colorado to the New Orleans extermination. It is what it is.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 09:05 PM
NEG REP PILE ON RAINMAN

I would fight back against this, but that picture of the rain-soaked cheerleader showed up in the upper right corner and now I'm all distracted.

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:05 PM
Well, a lot of animals (not dogs or cats or turtles) are endangered. Human beings are not.Kill yourself

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:09 PM
HSUS the epicenter of these fringe-tards as you put it is out of Washington DC. True BSL genocide got it's first traction out of Denver. PETA I believe is out of Virginia. The penetration into the regular HS and the ASPCA and giving these clowns law enforcement powers is national. The only reason I posted this is because when I posted the true goal of these wackos was to eliminate the domestic ownership on all animals as pets and livestock as well as outlawing all hunting, posters told me I was crazy.

Do I think they will reach their goal, of course not but they will keep pushing and controlling. The fact that the media gives them a free ride to blatantly mislead the public to raise millions more is inexcusable. From PETA gathering pets for adoption and exterminating them and throwing them in the garbage dumpster behind Safeway to the HSUS letting all the livestock die in the freezing cold in Colorado to the New Orleans extermination. It is what it is.My bad. Seems like they are all from left coast.

Mr. Laz
06-27-2011, 09:11 PM
should be getting your pets from dam shelters anyway

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:13 PM
should be getting your pets from dam shelters anyway

What's a 'dam shelter'?

BIG_DADDY
06-27-2011, 09:13 PM
should be getting your pets from dam shelters anyway

I was unaware that they had shelters at dams.

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 09:14 PM
Kill yourself


Does that make him endangered?

Rain Man
06-27-2011, 09:14 PM
I was unaware that they had shelters at dams.


They do. That's where I adopted my 20-foot catfish that eats scuba divers.

BigMeatballDave
06-27-2011, 09:16 PM
Does that make him endangered?Not around here. We have too many trolls.

BIG_DADDY
06-27-2011, 09:17 PM
They do. That's where I adopted my 20-foot catfish that eats scuba divers.

See, you learn something new every day. Dam shelters, who woulda guessed it?

Backwards Masking
06-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Does that make him endangered?

As a human being, no. As a lifetime Chiefs fan who stood by his franchise after 20 years of Carl and the 2-14 2008 Herm campaign, maybe.

Just Passin' By
06-27-2011, 10:54 PM
National political systems do, I agree. Do they swamp state and local differences? Because I go to Boulder regularly, and on a day to day basis it doesn't seem that much different than St. Louis. You'd think if one philosophy was better than the other, we'd have people drinking from golden chalices in one type of city and begging in rags in the other type of city.

I think I may be having an epiphany. Politics don't matter. From this point on, I need never worry about political issues again.

State and local systems also make a huge difference. Comparing Massachusetts to Florida is almost like dealing with 2 separate nations in a lot of ways.

Many of the larger urban centers tend to work the same, because that's where the leftists are, and many rural areas tend to work the same, because that's where those on the right are.

I generally look at a county-by-county map, and can get a pretty good feel about what I'd be dealing with there, especially if I look at trends over time.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/2004_election_county-by-county/http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/2004_election_county-by-county/

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html

SNR
06-28-2011, 01:29 AM
I was unaware that they had shelters at dams.That reminds me. The creek behind my house has a beaver problem. I'll have to ask my neighbor how his poison traps worked