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View Full Version : Religion Rick Perry to America: Pray to Jesus, or else!


KILLER_CLOWN
07-05-2011, 10:43 PM
The Texas governor and possible presidential hopeful says America can only solve its problems through Jesus

Gov. Rick Perry raised some eyebrows recently when he officially declared three "Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas," which has been plagued by drought.

But now Perry, these days a pundit-approved Possible Presidential Contender, is taking his advocacy for public prayer a step further -- and in a distinctly non-inclusive direction.

Perry is the man behind a new conservative Christian event called "The Response: A call to prayer for a nation in crisis." It is a day of prayer and fasting to be held at Reliant Stadium in Houston in August. Says Perry in a letter on the front page of the event's website:

"Right now, America is in crisis: we have been besieged by financial debt, terrorism, and a multitude of natural disasters. As a nation, we must come together and call upon Jesus to guide us through unprecedented struggles, and thank Him for the blessings of freedom we so richly enjoy."

(Emphasis added.)

Perry adds that "there is hope for America ... and we will find it on our knees."

I've reached out to Perry's spokesman to ask what the governor would say to those Americans who are not comfortable with his exhortation that they pray to Jesus, and I'll update this post if I hear back.

So who else will be at The Response?

"Governor Rick Perry has invited all US governors as well as many other national Christian and political leaders," according to the event's website. "People of all ages, races, backgrounds and Christian denominations will be in attendance to proclaim Jesus as Savior and pray for America."

The Response is being organized at Perry's request by the American Family Association, a group that regular readers will recognize from our past coverage of a top AFA official's history of openly bigoted anti-Muslim rhetoric.

Here's the promotional video for The Response:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/24674722?title=0&amp;byline=0&amp;portrait=0&amp;color=1b7bb7" width="400" height="170" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/24674722">The Response Promo</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user7327338">The Response USA</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/06/06/rick_perry_prayer

Although i do not see him as any kind of answer I Have to give gov. Perry props for this.

Bump
07-06-2011, 01:07 AM
Jesus Fucking Christ :facepalm:

Brock
07-06-2011, 01:12 AM
This is what our political landscape is reduced to.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 01:21 AM
In our current state could it hurt? I'm not counting on the fact that Mr. Perry is genuine, because i don't think he is.

BigMeatballDave
07-06-2011, 01:29 AM
:facepalm:

SNR
07-06-2011, 01:42 AM
In our current state could it hurt? I'm not counting on the fact that Mr. Perry is genuine, because i don't think he is.If he's not genuine, then why do you think this is positive?

Brainiac
07-06-2011, 01:46 AM
I think turning this country into a theocracy is a great idea. It seems to work out pretty well for the Islamic states. It's a little hard on the citizens with all of the stonings and beheadings, but everything has its price.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 01:57 AM
If he's not genuine, then why do you think this is positive?

The message is a good one, but I believe this is nothing more than an attempt to garner votes. This has nothing to do with turning America into a theocracy, but it is my belief that each and every one of us needs Jesus.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 01:58 AM
I think turning this country into a theocracy is a great idea. It seems to work out pretty well for the Islamic states. It's a little hard on the citizens with all of the stonings and beheadings, but everything has its price.

Yes because I would want a dictator that isn't Jesus. :spock:

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 02:03 AM
Were doing so well now..

Number One? 20 Not So Good Categories That The United States Leads The World In

Is the United States "number one"? Many Americans take deep pride in their nation and the truth is that the U.S. has a lot going for it. The United States has the largest economy in the world. The United States also has the most powerful military on the entire planet. The United States has produced most of the greatest movies that the world has ever seen. But the United States is also number one in a lot of categories that are not go great. If we ever want to turn this country around, we need to be very honest with ourselves. We need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and realize that it is not a good thing that we are number one in divorce, drug addiction, debt, obesity, car thefts, murders and total crimes. We have become a slothful, greedy, decadent nation that is exhibiting signs of advanced decay. Until we understand just how bad our problems really are, we won't be able to come up with the solutions that we need.

A lot of people that write articles like this have a deep hatred for America. But that is not the case with me. I love the United States. I love the American people. America is like an aging, bloated rock star that has become addicted to a dozen different drugs. America is a shadow of its former self and it desperately needs to wake up before it plunges into oblivion.

If you do not believe that America is in bad shape, just read the list below. The following are 20 not so good categories that the United States leads the world in....

#1 The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world and the largest total prison population on the entire globe.

#2 According to NationMaster.com, the United States has the highest percentage of obese people in the world.

#3 The United States has the highest divorce rate on the globe by a wide margin.

#4 The United States is tied with the U.K. for the most hours of television watched per person each week.

#5 The United States has the highest rate of illegal drug use on the entire planet.

#6 There are more car thefts in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world by far.

#7 There are more reported rapes in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

#8 There are more reported murders in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

#9 There are more total crimes in the United States each year than anywhere else in the world.

#10 The United States also has more police officers than anywhere else in the world.

#11 The United States spends much more on health care as a percentage of GDP than any other nation on the face of the earth.

#12 The United States has more people on pharmaceutical drugs than any other country on the planet.

#13 The percentage of women taking antidepressants in America is higher than in any other country in the world.

#14 Americans have more student loan debt than anyone else in the world.

#15 More pornography is created in the United States than anywhere else on the entire globe. 89 percent is made in the U.S.A. and only 11 percent is made in the rest of the world.

#16 The United States has the largest trade deficit in the world every single year. Between December 2000 and December 2010, the United States ran a total trade deficit of 6.1 trillion dollars with the rest of the world, and the U.S. has had a negative trade balance every single year since 1976.

#17 The United States spends 7 times more on the military than any other nation on the planet does. In fact, U.S. military spending is greater than the military spending of China, Russia, Japan, India, and the rest of NATO combined.

#18 The United States has far more foreign military bases than any other country does.

#19 The United States has the most complicated tax system in the entire world.

#20 The U.S. has accumulated the biggest national debt that the world has ever seen and it is rapidly getting worse. Right now, U.S. government debt is expanding at a rate of $40,000 per second.

So are you convinced that we are in trouble yet?

The truth is that America has changed. Most of us don't even say hello to our neighbors anymore.

In fact, we have become so self-involved that many of us don't even notice when someone around us dies.

Just consider the following two examples.

*USA Today recently reported on the body of a dead woman that was not found for approximately a year even though a whole bunch of people walked right past the car where she died....

Bank contractors, inspectors and even the new owner of a foreclosed home walked past the silver Chevy Nova in the garage numerous times before discovering the former homeowner — dead on the front seat.

*In an even more shocking case, the CBS affiliate in Boston recently reported that a dead woman was lying on the bottom of a public pool for two days while large numbers of people swam right over her. How in the world could something like this possibly happen?....

t’s a mystery as murky as the water at Veteran’s Memorial swimming pool in Fall River public pool: how did swimmers, lifeguards, or inspectors not notice a woman’s body at the bottom of the pool for a few days?

Marie Joseph, 36, was last seen at the pool on Sunday. The pool was open to the public Monday and Tuesday with six lifeguards on duty, and no one noticed the body under 12 feet of water.

Most Americans have become so self-involved that they barely even notice anyone other than their family and close friends.

The love of most Americans is growing cold and when the collapse of the U.S. economy happens it is just going to make things worse. Instead of working as a community, most Americans will only be concerned with making sure that their own needs are taken care of.

The United States was once the most blessed nation on the face of the earth, but now we are literally falling to pieces.

Does anyone have any ideas about why this could be happening?

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/number-one-20-not-so-good-categories-that-the-united-states-leads-the-world-in

stevieray
07-06-2011, 05:21 AM
...doesn't matter, if God has already turned us over to ourselves....which appears to be evident by the stats listed.

Hog Farmer
07-06-2011, 05:22 AM
Well, we do need rain. In the the panhandle we've had 0.36 for the whole year.

Amnorix
07-06-2011, 06:22 AM
Right. Presumably that makes him pretty unelectable. I sure hope so.

chiefforlife
07-06-2011, 07:40 AM
Nice plan, "Jesus take the wheel"....:doh!:

Dave Lane
07-06-2011, 07:44 AM
You know despite the fact everyone knows I would make an appearance, I have to say I think my work is done here.

stevieray
07-06-2011, 07:50 AM
Right. Presumably that makes him pretty unelectable. I sure hope so.

discrimination...?

Dave Lane
07-06-2011, 07:50 AM
I think turning this country into a theocracy is a great idea. It seems to work out pretty well for the Islamic states. It's a little hard on the citizens with all of the stonings and beheadings, but everything has its price.

Wouldn't that be the irony of all ironies? the Arabs escape the religious zealots in the Arab spring and we take their place as a Theocracy.

Brainiac
07-06-2011, 07:57 AM
Right. Presumably that makes him pretty unelectable. I sure hope so.

"True conservatives" will adore him. Everyone else will recoil in horror.

Bob Dole
07-06-2011, 08:03 AM
FWIW, we just got 2 days of rain in a row and they are calling for more this afternoon...

(We had a total of .75" of rain in June and 7 days in excess of 100 degrees.)

Brainiac
07-06-2011, 08:17 AM
FWIW, we just got 2 days of rain in a row and they are calling for more this afternoon...

(We had a total of .75" of rain in June and 7 days in excess of 100 degrees.)

The scary part is that there are some people who will actually believe that the two things are related.

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 08:26 AM
This is what our political landscape is reduced to.

Yes, back to the fundamentals of what made this country great that we have gotten away from. Back to what our Founders based our Constitution on "divine providence":hmmm: imagine that:shrug:

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 08:32 AM
I think turning this country into a theocracy is a great idea. It seems to work out pretty well for the Islamic states. It's a little hard on the citizens with all of the stonings and beheadings, but everything has its price.

Totally get your point:LOL: but we are more of a "THUGOCRACY" thx to all the Alinsky "useful idiots" in the Marxist Media and Marxist Unions that attack "conservatism" at any angle whether it be a conservative candidate or conservative issue:thumb:

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 08:38 AM
"True conservatives" will adore him. Everyone else will recoil in horror.

Great! Because "everyone else" as you say are about 30% and 70% of this country leans conservative which is accurate with the poll #s.:thumb:

Jaric
07-06-2011, 09:13 AM
Yes, back to the fundamentals of what made this country great that we have gotten away from. Back to what our Founders based our Constitution on "divine providence":hmmm: imagine that:shrug:

Our founders based the Constitution on ancient Rome and Greece.

There is not one single mention or allusion to God in the Constitution.

Cave Johnson
07-06-2011, 09:17 AM
Yes, back to the fundamentals of what made this country great that we have gotten away from. Back to what our Founders based our Constitution on "divine providence":hmmm: imagine that:shrug:

Totally get your point:LOL: but we are more of a "THUGOCRACY" thx to all the Alinsky "useful idiots" in the Marxist Media and Marxist Unions that attack "conservatism" at any angle whether it be a conservative candidate or conservative issue:thumb:

Great! Because "everyone else" as you say are about 30% and 70% of this country leans conservative which is accurate with the poll #s.:thumb:

Settle down on the quotation marks, Beavis.

Hydrae
07-06-2011, 09:21 AM
FWIW, we just got 2 days of rain in a row and they are calling for more this afternoon...

(We had a total of .75" of rain in June and 7 days in excess of 100 degrees.)

Still nothing here in the middle of the state. We have a 10% chance coming on Sunday. I will be praying some falls at my house. :D

Cave Johnson
07-06-2011, 09:22 AM
Our founders based the Constitution on ancient Rome and Greece.

There is not one single mention or allusion to God in the Constitution.

But CrazyShrink KNOWS what the founders believed in (hint, it's a Old Testament version of God, not that New Testament liberal shit).

Jaric
07-06-2011, 09:25 AM
But CrazyShrink KNOWS what the founders believed in (hint, it's a Old Testament version of God, not that New Testament liberal shit).

Jesus was obviously just a marxist Alinsky class warrior with all his "The meek shall inherit the Earth," talk.

Donger
07-06-2011, 09:25 AM
Okay, what's the "or else" part?

Jaric
07-06-2011, 09:26 AM
Okay, what's the "or else" part?

He's going to start handing out fish and wine and hope for the best.

Donger
07-06-2011, 09:27 AM
He's going to start handing out fish and wine and hope for the best.

LMAO

I just don't see the "or else" part.

Brock
07-06-2011, 09:28 AM
Yes, back to the fundamentals of what made this country great that we have gotten away from. Back to what our Founders based our Constitution on "divine providence":hmmm: imagine that:shrug:

What's that got to do with Jesus?

Brock
07-06-2011, 09:28 AM
discrimination...?

Hopefully.

BigCatDaddy
07-06-2011, 09:28 AM
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35)

Nahhh, we are much better off with Democrats hating Republicans, Republicans hating Democrats and both parties calling Independents spineless cowards.

Jaric
07-06-2011, 09:30 AM
LMAO

I just don't see the "or else" part.

To be serious, I didn't see it either. I assume he means that we won't fix our problems.

scott free
07-06-2011, 12:48 PM
Yeah wow, this guys actually asking the Christians of America to pray? who ever heard of such a thing?

Thats just disgusting, hang the SOB!

Jaric
07-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Yeah wow, this guys actually asking the Christians of America to pray? who ever heard of such a thing?

Thats just disgusting, hang the SOB!

Wouldn't it be more fitting to crucify him?

gblowfish
07-06-2011, 12:53 PM
He'll make a great dictator of Texas when they leave the Union in 2013.

scott free
07-06-2011, 01:02 PM
Wouldn't it be more fitting to crucify him?

Much better.

Seriously tho, i think Perrys a boob, but its hard to understand what everyones so up in arms about here... 'AN AMERICAN THEOCRACY!' lmao.

If you're a Christian, he's asking you to pray... BFD.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Okay, what's the "or else" part?

This should be evident by now.

Donger
07-06-2011, 02:40 PM
This should be evident by now.

It isn't. Perhaps you could explain in detail?

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Yeah wow, this guys actually asking the Christians of America to pray? who ever heard of such a thing?

Thats just disgusting, hang the SOB!

No No he's going to turn us into a theocracy!!!!!!!!! Hide the Children!

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 02:41 PM
It isn't. Perhaps you could explain in detail?

Well take a look around this once great nation isn't doing so great, or maybe it is?

Donger
07-06-2011, 02:42 PM
Well take a look around this once great nation isn't doing so great, or maybe it is?

Can someone translate for me? WTF does this have to do with "pray, or else"?

KILLER_CLOWN
07-06-2011, 02:44 PM
Can someone translate for me? WTF does this have to do with "pray, or else"?

We seem to have lost our way.

Brainiac
07-06-2011, 03:51 PM
Great! Because "everyone else" as you say are about 30% and 70% of this country leans conservative which is accurate with the poll #s.:thumb:

There is a difference between leaning conservative and being a "true" conservative. I can't believe I had to point that out to a "true" conservative.

orange
07-06-2011, 07:20 PM
Yeah wow, this guys actually asking the Christians of America to pray? who ever heard of such a thing?

Thats just disgusting, hang the SOB!

On the basis of historical precedent and constitutionality, then, Gov. Perry's "Response" is on solid ground. But at their best, the Founders employed faith principles — especially religious liberty and equality by creation — to unify Americans across the theological spectrum (a spectrum that admittedly was not as wide then as it is today). Perry promises to "take America back," presumably from President Obama and his supporters, and that theme makes "The Response" political, especially if it is a prelude to his presidential run. Prayer can and should have a public role in America, but Perry should not use it as a campaign tactic.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-07-01-church-state-response_n.htm

Bump
07-06-2011, 08:33 PM
#15 gives us a glimmer of hoap

RNR
07-06-2011, 09:04 PM
After several servings of bullshit I guess selling magic is next in line instead of the president and DC doing their job~

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:23 PM
There is a difference between leaning conservative and being a "true" conservative. I can't believe I had to point that out to a "true" conservative.

Ya think???:rolleyes:

Let me clarify a little better. My point is that if there were an election tomorrow it would make no difference what true conservative ran whether it be Perry/Bachman/Palin/Santorum/Cain. Although Perry is not as "staunch" as I would like but......

Obama has scared enough of the Independents that any conservative candidate would win hands down right now.:thumb:

|Zach|
07-06-2011, 09:26 PM
discrimination...?

For someone who constantly bemoans the race card you sure to play the Christianity victim card a lot.

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE=orange;7733718] but Perry should not use it as a campaign tactic.

Why not? Maybe it is truly coming from his heart. Tell me how unconstitutional it is or a confilict of interest or something please!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:34 PM
Settle down on the quotation marks, Beavis.

Hey Dittsie!! I see you have your "commie red glasses" on in your avatar:p

|Zach|
07-06-2011, 09:41 PM
Why not? Maybe it is truly coming from his heart. Tell me how unconstitutional it is or a confilict of interest or something please!!!!!!!!!!!!

It isn't any of those things. It is unelectable.

But that doesn't bother me.

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:42 PM
Our founders based the Constitution on ancient Rome and Greece.

There is not one single mention or allusion to God in the Constitution.

That's because they took care of that with the 'Declaration of Independence'.

You know "endowed by their Creator":spock:

stevieray
07-06-2011, 09:46 PM
For someone who constantly bemoans the race card you sure to play the Christianity victim card a lot.

:spock:

first off, I've never claimed to be a Christian.

secondly, I thought in this country we don't discriminate based on sex, race, creed or religion...correct?

finally, the discrimination IS evident in the replies this thread..bringing that to light by asking a question doesn't infer being a victim.

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:53 PM
It isn't any of those things. It is unelectable.

But that doesn't bother me.

Unelectable? Really? You libs live so much in a "progressive narcissistic bubble" that ya'll couldn't read the political tea leaves if they were spelled out for you.

You all are sooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch with the "real world" (avg Joe Sixpack)and all you know to do is spit out what MSNBC tells you to believe and spit out.

There is a reason I have been using the term "useful idiot" quite bit lately:thumb:

And your idiot response "unelectable" is why:shrug:

Chiefshrink
07-06-2011, 09:56 PM
:spock:

first off, I've never claimed to be a Christian.

secondly, I thought in this country we don't discriminate based on sex, race, creed or religion...correct?

finally, the discrimination IS evident in the replies this thread..bringing that to light by asking a question doesn't infer being a victim.

Hey now stevie, be easy on these "Lenin loonies" you know they live and operate by a "double standard":thumb: Conservatism is "satan" in their eyes.

|Zach|
07-06-2011, 10:38 PM
:spock:

first off, I've never claimed to be a Christian.

secondly, I thought in this country we don't discriminate based on sex, race, creed or religion...correct?

finally, the discrimination IS evident in the replies this thread..bringing that to light by asking a question doesn't infer being a victim.

It is his opinion he won't be elected for that reason. Not that he can't

But keep playing that Christian victim card. LMAO

|Zach|
07-06-2011, 10:41 PM
Unelectable? Really? You libs live so much in a "progressive narcissistic bubble" that ya'll couldn't read the political tea leaves if they were spelled out for you.

You all are sooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch with the "real world" (avg Joe Sixpack)and all you know to do is spit out what MSNBC tells you to believe and spit out.

There is a reason I have been using the term "useful idiot" quite bit lately:thumb:

And your idiot response "unelectable" is why:shrug:

I can't read the political tea leaves? You haven't shown yourself to be a credible political prognosticator. I have no problem with you hitching yourself to his wagon. It will just be another one in the L column for you.

Brock
07-06-2011, 10:46 PM
Unelectable? Really? You libs live so much in a "progressive narcissistic bubble" that ya'll couldn't read the political tea leaves if they were spelled out for you.

You all are sooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch with the "real world" (avg Joe Sixpack)and all you know to do is spit out what MSNBC tells you to believe and spit out.

There is a reason I have been using the term "useful idiot" quite bit lately:thumb:

And your idiot response "unelectable" is why:shrug:

Says the guy who's still riding the Birth Cert Loon Express.

Hydrae
07-07-2011, 06:54 AM
Still nothing here in the middle of the state. We have a 10% chance coming on Sunday. I will be praying some falls at my house. :D

I had rain fall at my house for about 15 minutes last night. Praise Jesus!


Seriously, I absolutely did send out a quick thank you prayer to the big guy upstairs. We really, really need some rain around here.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 06:58 AM
That's because they took care of that with the 'Declaration of Independence'.

You know "endowed by their Creator":spock:

Then you probably should have said the Declaration of Independence instead of Constitution.

Don't you find it a bit odd that if as you seem to believe the founders intended this country to be founded on religion, that when they drafted the supreme law of this land (the Constitution) the only time religion is mentioned is in the first amendment prohibiting congress from passing any laws that would prohibit the free exercise of all religions?

If you're looking for the principles our founders used to found this country you need look no futher than the principles of liberty and natural law. Those are the foundations this country was built upon.

Not Christianity.

Dave Lane
07-07-2011, 06:59 AM
I had rain fall at my house for about 15 minutes last night. Praise Jesus!


Seriously, I absolutely did send out a quick thank you prayer to the big guy upstairs. We really, really need some rain around here.

I wish I could say that fucking rain I hate it!

Jaric
07-07-2011, 07:05 AM
Unelectable? Really? Yes.

By and large the American people are not interested in hearing that your solution to the problems that afflict this great nation is to pray for miracles from a supernatural being.

The only reason it doesn't bother YOU is because you agree with the religion.

But if he was out doing a voodoo dance or praying to Allah for assistance you couldn't wait to vote him out soon enough.

That is not to say that America does not want a leader who happens to be religious. However, they also want a religious candidate who is willing to take matters into his own hands and solve the problem, not hope that Santa Claus brings us a new economy for Christmas this year.

Chiefshrink
07-07-2011, 08:50 AM
Then you probably should have said the Declaration of Independence instead of Constitution.

Don't you find it a bit odd that if as you seem to believe the founders intended this country to be founded on religion, that when they drafted the supreme law of this land (the Constitution) the only time religion is mentioned is in the first amendment prohibiting congress from passing any laws that would prohibit the free exercise of all religions?

If you're looking for the principles our founders used to found this country you need look no futher than the principles of liberty and natural law. Those are the foundations this country was built upon.

Not Christianity.

Now here is the rub between guys like you and guys like me. Principles of personal individual liberty and freedom and 'natural law' created by "Our Creator"(principles taken from the Bible) as opposed to your 'natural law' that has evolved over millions if not billions of years with "No Creator".

According to you our Founders had the 'jump' by about 100yrs on Darwin who came on the scene around the 1850's.

If you think the Founders definition of 'natural law' came from Evolutionary theory and not principles and values from the Bible then you keep drinking that "useful idiot beer".

The Constitution had no reason to mention God per se. Separation of church and state was essential in order to protect the "churches"(a la religous freedom) and protect from a 'theocracy'.

The Founders knew that when the Christian faith thrives in a healthy way(guidance from Divine Providence- Judeo/Chrisian God) There will allllllllllllllllllllllwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays be a healthy separation between church and state. But as the Founders wrote as well as soon as God is disregarded in a society then tyranny will follow. Even the Founders knew the Christian faith was the 'one true faith' but they could not come out and formally declare that because then that would violate 'church and state' and end up right back to King George type of rule(tyranny).

Bottom line: The Founders depended and trusted that "We The People" to know the difference and assume when the terms "Divine providence" / "Our creator" are used that the Founders are referring to the God of the Bible pure and simple.

Chiefshrink
07-07-2011, 09:02 AM
Yes.

By and large the American people are not interested in hearing that your solution to the problems that afflict this great nation is to pray for miracles from a supernatural being.

The only reason it doesn't bother YOU is because you agree with the religion.

But if he was out doing a voodoo dance or praying to Allah for assistance you couldn't wait to vote him out soon enough.

That is not to say that America does not want a leader who happens to be religious. However, they also want a religious candidate who is willing to take matters into his own hands and solve the problem, not hope that Santa Claus brings us a new economy for Christmas this year.

Abraham Lincoln prayed to the Christian God and also asked 'We The People" to pray as well during the Civil War.

Does that offend you?

Did the outcome of the Civil War offend you because Lincoln prayed to the Judeo Christian God- Jesus?

Better re-think your notion of a POTUS praying to a Judeo Christian God and asking for guidance,mercy and blessing upon a people and NOT FORCING THEM TO DO IT!!!!!!

Jaric
07-07-2011, 09:09 AM
Now here is the rub between guys like you and guys like me. Principles of personal individual liberty and freedom and 'natural law' created by "Our Creator"(principles taken from the Bible) as opposed to your 'natural law' that has evolved over millions if not billions of years with "No Creator". Natural law evolved from men named "Plato" and "Aristotle." (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law)

According to you our Founders had the 'jump' by about 100yrs on Darwin who came on the scene around the 1850's. That's natural selection. And it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

If you think the Founders definition of 'natural law' came from Evolutionary theory and not principles and values from the Bible then you keep drinking that "useful idiot beer".I see you keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. Also once again, no one said anything about Darwin. That's simply your own ignorance on this subject showing.
The Constitution had no reason to mention God per se. Separation of church and state was essential in order to protect the "churches"(a la religous freedom) and protect from a 'theocracy'. Seperation of Church and state is also not in the Constitution. That phrase comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists.
The Founders knew that when the Christian faith thrives in a healthy way(guidance from Divine Providence- Judeo/Chrisian God) There will allllllllllllllllllllllwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays be a healthy separation between church and state. But as the Founders wrote as well as soon as God is disregarded in a society then tyranny will follow. Even the Founders knew the Christian faith was the 'one true faith' but they could not come out and formally declare that because then that would violate 'church and state' and end up right back to King George type of rule(tyranny). Nonsense. Thomas Jefferson went so far as to rewrite the bible removing any and all references to the supernatural. (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) The constitution is a document born out of the Age of The Enlightnment. It is a rational document not based on faith but on reason.

Bottom line: The Founders depended and trusted that "We The People" to know the difference and assume when the terms "Divine providence" / "Our creator" are used that the Founders are referring to the God of the Bible pure and simple.The bottom line is that you are attempting to rewrite history and you quite frankly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

If one wanted to ascribe our founders to a particular religion, it would be far more similar to what is refered to as "deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)."

Jaric
07-07-2011, 09:14 AM
Abraham Lincoln prayed to the Christian God and also asked 'We The People" to pray as well during the Civil War.

Does that offend you?

Did the outcome of the Civil War offend you because Lincoln prayed to the Judeo Christian God- Jesus?

Better re-think your notion of a POTUS praying to a Judeo Christian God and asking for guidance,mercy and blessing upon a people and NOT FORCING THEM TO DO IT!!!!!!

Why would it offend me? I have no problem with The Bible and in fact enjoy reading passages from it. (The Book of Job is my favorite)

Putting your foolish strawman argument aside, the reason it makes him unelectable is because it's essentially an admission he doesn't know how to fix the problem.

If you enter a room and it's dark do you

A. turn on the switch

or

B. Pray to God to re-enact Genesis and "Let there be light!"

99.9% of people turn on the light switch because they know that is the solution to their problem. If you take your car to an automechanic and he tells you to pray for God to fix your engine it's because he doesn't know how to do it. Otherwise he would just fix the engine.

People turn to faith for questions they cannot answer. That is the point of faith. There is nothing wrong with faith, however if we are looking for leadership, it might be nice to elect someone with answers to the problems we face.

orange
07-07-2011, 10:24 AM
Lincoln prayed to the Judeo Christian God- Jesus?


No, he didn't. You're lying. Show a single quote from Lincoln where he even mentioned Jesus or Christ.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 10:29 AM
No, he didn't. You're lying. Show a single quote from Lincoln where he even mentioned Jesus or Christ.

The Gettysburg Address is filled with religious allusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion

Also, from his second inaugural address:

Both [North and South] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.

Brock
07-07-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't care who Lincoln prayed to. Most of the people who founded this country and delineated its governing principles were DEISTS.

|Zach|
07-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Abraham Lincoln prayed to the Christian God [/B]

LMAO

orange
07-07-2011, 10:42 AM
No, he didn't. You're lying. Show a single quote from Lincoln where he even mentioned Jesus or Christ.

The Gettysburg Address is filled with religious allusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion


The Gettysburg Address

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


I repeat: Show a single quote from Lincoln where he even mentioned Jesus or Christ.

You're right there on the wiki page - surely there's something there?

VAChief
07-07-2011, 10:48 AM
Everyone knows he prayed to the God of Abraham...Duh.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 10:51 AM
I repeat: Show a single quote from Lincoln where he even mentioned Jesus or Christ.

You're right there on the wiki page - surely there's something there?

So when he invokes the Bible, are you assuming he is refering to the Hebrew God? Because it's got to be one or the other.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 10:58 AM
Also Orange, from the Wiki link on the Actual Address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address

In contrast, writer Adam Gopnik, in The New Yorker, notes that while Everett's Oration was explicitly neoclassical, referring directly to Marathon and Pericles, "Lincoln’s rhetoric is, instead, deliberately Biblical. (It is difficult to find a single obviously classical reference in all of his speeches.) Lincoln had mastered the sound of the King James Bible so completely that he could recast abstract issues of constitutional law in Biblical terms, making the proposition that Texas and New Hampshire should be forever bound by a single post office sound like something right out of Genesis."[28]

orange
07-07-2011, 11:00 AM
So when he invokes the Bible, are you assuming he is refering to the Hebrew God? Because it's got to be one or the other.

I believe he was like Jefferson - who also quoted the Bible a lot, going so far as to edit his own version - without believing in the divinity of Jesus.

Lincoln's parents were Hard-shell Baptists, joining the Little Pigeon Baptist Church near Lincoln City, Indiana in 1823.[4] In 1831, Lincoln moved to New Salem, which had no churches.[5] However, historian Dr. Mark Noll states that "Lincoln never joined a church nor ever made a clear profession of standard Christian belief."[6] During the White House years, however, he often did attend the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, where the family pew he rented is marked by a plaque.[7] Noll agrees with biographer Jesse Fell that Lincoln rejected orthodox views. Lincoln did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, the Atonement, the infallibility of the Bible, miracles, or heaven and hell. Noll argues Lincoln was turned against organized Christianity by his experiences as a young man who saw how excessive emotion and bitter sectarian quarrels marked yearly camp meetings and the ministry of traveling preachers

...

1866 William Herndon wrote in a letter dated February 4, 1866 that:

Mr. Lincoln’s religion is too well known to me to allow of even a shadow of a doubt; he is or was a Theist & a Rationalist, denying all extraordinary - supernatural inspiration or revelation. At one time in his life, to say the least, he was an elevated Pantheist, doubting the immortality of the soul as the Christian world understands that term. He believed that the soul lost its identity and was immortal as a force. Subsequent to this he rose to the belief of a God, and this is all the change he ever underwent. I speak knowing what I say. He was a noble men- a good great man for all this. My own ideas of God- his attributes - man, his destiny, & the relations of the two, are tinged with Mr. Lincoln’s religion. I cannot, for the poor life of me, see why men dodge the sacred truth of things. In my poor lectures I stick to the truth and bide my time. I love Mr. Lincoln dearly, almost worship him, but that can’t blind me. He’s the purest politician I ever saw, and the justest man. I am scribbling- that’s the word- away on a life of Mr. Lincoln- gathering known- authentic & true facts of him. Excuse the liberties I have taken with you- hope you won’t have a fight with Johnson. Is he turning out a fool - a Tyler? He must go with God if he wants to be a living and vital power.”[50]

As I said, you're right there at the Wiki. Read it for yourself.

Hydrae
07-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Why would it offend me? I have no problem with The Bible and in fact enjoy reading passages from it. (The Book of Job is my favorite)

Putting your foolish strawman argument aside, the reason it makes him unelectable is because it's essentially an admission he doesn't know how to fix the problem.

If you enter a room and it's dark do you

A. turn on the switch

or

B. Pray to God to re-enact Genesis and "Let there be light!"

99.9% of people turn on the light switch because they know that is the solution to their problem. If you take your car to an automechanic and he tells you to pray for God to fix your engine it's because he doesn't know how to do it. Otherwise he would just fix the engine.

People turn to faith for questions they cannot answer. That is the point of faith. There is nothing wrong with faith, however if we are looking for leadership, it might be nice to elect someone with answers to the problems we face.

People are overthinking this or something. Perry wants people to get together to pray for RAIN. How would you solve the lack of rain issue, turning a switch?

Yes, he has expanded it to include asking for help on other areas but I do not see where he is expecting to sit back and rely on God to solve everything.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-07-2011, 11:01 AM
I believe he was like Jefferson - who also quoted the Bible a lot, going so far as to edit his own version - without believing in the divinity of Jesus.

1866 William Herndon wrote in a letter dated February 4, 1866 that:

Mr. Lincoln’s religion is too well known to me to allow of even a shadow of a doubt; he is or was a Theist & a Rationalist, denying all extraordinary - supernatural inspiration or revelation. At one time in his life, to say the least, he was an elevated Pantheist, doubting the immortality of the soul as the Christian world understands that term. He believed that the soul lost its identity and was immortal as a force. Subsequent to this he rose to the belief of a God, and this is all the change he ever underwent. I speak knowing what I say. He was a noble men- a good great man for all this. My own ideas of God- his attributes - man, his destiny, & the relations of the two, are tinged with Mr. Lincoln’s religion. I cannot, for the poor life of me, see why men dodge the sacred truth of things. In my poor lectures I stick to the truth and bide my time. I love Mr. Lincoln dearly, almost worship him, but that can’t blind me. He’s the purest politician I ever saw, and the justest man. I am scribbling- that’s the word- away on a life of Mr. Lincoln- gathering known- authentic & true facts of him. Excuse the liberties I have taken with you- hope you won’t have a fight with Johnson. Is he turning out a fool - a Tyler? He must go with God if he wants to be a living and vital power.”[50]

As I said, you're right there at the Wiki. Read it for yourself.

Sounds like these great men were inspired by the word of God.

loochy
07-07-2011, 11:05 AM
There is nothing wrong with faith, however if we are looking for leadership, it might be nice to elect someone with answers to the problems we face.

Yeah, but there is nobody running that has answers to our problems. They make up BS answers to tide us over but they are just as clueless, if not moreso, than the rest of us.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:08 AM
As I said, you're right there at the Wiki. Read it for yourself.

How about his wife?

However another close individual, Lincoln's wife and widow, had a different perspective on her husband's faith, saying he had become increasingly religious:

"… As my husband was known to be the most loving and devoted husband & father we will allow these falsehoods a place where they deserve. We all — the whole world have been greatly shocked — at the fearful ideas — Herndon — has advanced regarding Mr. Lincoln's religious views. You, who knew him so well & held so many conversations with him, as far back as twenty years since, know what they were. A man, who never took the name of the Maker in vain, who always read his Bible diligently, who never failed to rely on God's promises & looked upon Him for protection, surely such a man as this, could not have been a disbeliever, or any other than what he was, a true Christian gentleman. No one, but such a man as Herndon could venture — to suggest such an idea. From the time of the death of our little Edward, I believe my husband's heart was directed towards religion & as time passed on - when Mr. Lincoln became elevated to Office - with the care of a great Nation, upon his shoulders - when devastating war was upon us then indeed to my knowledge - did his great heart go up daily, hourly, in prayer to God - for his sustaining power. When too - the overwhelming sorrow came upon us, our beautiful bright angelic boy, Willie was called away from us, to his Heavenly Home, with God's chastising hand upon us - he turned his heart to Christ —"[3]

orange
07-07-2011, 11:08 AM
Sounds like these great men were inspired by the word of God.

Sounds to me like these great men who were raised in the church learned to think for themselves and rejected the supernatural hooey and embraced the better parts of the philosophy.

Lincoln's parents were Hard-shell Baptists, joining the Little Pigeon Baptist Church near Lincoln City, Indiana in 1823.[4] In 1831, Lincoln moved to New Salem, which had no churches.[5] However, historian Dr. Mark Noll states that "Lincoln never joined a church nor ever made a clear profession of standard Christian belief."[6] During the White House years, however, he often did attend the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, where the family pew he rented is marked by a plaque.[7] Noll agrees with biographer Jesse Fell that Lincoln rejected orthodox views. Lincoln did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, the Atonement, the infallibility of the Bible, miracles, or heaven and hell. Noll argues Lincoln was turned against organized Christianity by his experiences as a young man who saw how excessive emotion and bitter sectarian quarrels marked yearly camp meetings and the ministry of traveling preachers

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:09 AM
People are overthinking this or something. Perry wants people to get together to pray for RAIN. How would you solve the lack of rain issue, turning a switch?

I'd do a Native American rain dance.

orange
07-07-2011, 11:11 AM
How about his wife?

How about himself?

As Carl Sandburg recounts in Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years, Lincoln attended one of Cartwright's revival meetings. At the conclusion of the service, the fiery pulpiteer called for all who intended to go to heaven to rise. Naturally, the response was heartening. Then he called for all those who wished to go to hell to stand, unsurprisingly there were not many takers. Lincoln had responded to neither option. Cartwright closed in. "Mr. Lincoln, you have not expressed an interest in going to either heaven or hell. May I enquire as to where you do plan to go?" Lincoln replied: "I did not come here with the idea of being singled out, but since you ask, I will reply with equal candor. I intend to go to Congress."

And as I asked before, can you provide a single quote where he references Jesus or Christ?

Bob Dole
07-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Still nothing here in the middle of the state. We have a 10% chance coming on Sunday. I will be praying some falls at my house. :D

You're not praying hard enough.

Heathens.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:21 AM
How about himself?

As Carl Sandburg recounts in Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years, Lincoln attended one of Cartwright's revival meetings. At the conclusion of the service, the fiery pulpiteer called for all who intended to go to heaven to rise. Naturally, the response was heartening. Then he called for all those who wished to go to hell to stand, unsurprisingly there were not many takers. Lincoln had responded to neither option. Cartwright closed in. "Mr. Lincoln, you have not expressed an interest in going to either heaven or hell. May I enquire as to where you do plan to go?" Lincoln replied: "I did not come here with the idea of being singled out, but since you ask, I will reply with equal candor. I intend to go to Congress."

And as I asked before, can you provide a single quote where he references Jesus or Christ?

Lincoln’s famous words, speaking of the slavery issue in America, were, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was quoting from Luke 11:17, in which Jesus’ enemies claimed Jesus could cast out demons because He was in league with the devil himself Jesus replied, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth" (KJV)

http://www.errantskeptics.org/Quotes_by_Presidents.htm

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:24 AM
"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book."

Earlier, a broken engagement had caused him much pain, and Lincoln declared that his Bible was "the best cure for the blues." Lincoln also said that "this Great Book is the best gift God has given to man." When his wife, Mary, urged harsh measures for the defeated Confederacy, Lincoln quoted Jesus’ words to her, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

(From the same link I posted from above)

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Tell you what Orange, I'm willing to admit the possibility that Lincoln's religious views may possibly be summed up in the manner in which you described, if you are willing to admit that it's possible that all the Bible qouting and religious allusions Lincoln made suggests that he did have a genuine belief in the Bible.

orange
07-07-2011, 11:31 AM
And as I asked before, can you provide a single quote where he references Jesus or Christ?

*** two posts, no references to Jesus or Christ *** (From the same link I posted from above)


I guess that link doesn't have any, either then.

I believe he was like Jefferson - who also quoted the Bible a lot, going so far as to edit his own version - without believing in the divinity of Jesus.

orange
07-07-2011, 11:33 AM
Tell you what Orange, I'm willing to admit the possibility that Lincoln's religious views may possibly be summed up in the manner in which you described, if you are willing to admit that it's possible that all the Bible qouting and religious allusions Lincoln made suggests that he did have a genuine belief in the Bible.

Very similar to myself, he wanted to believe in the good stuff. But I don't think he got the faith gene, either.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:34 AM
I guess that link doesn't have any, either then.

So qouting Jesus doesn't count as a reference to Christ?

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:41 AM
Very similar to myself, he wanted to believe in the good stuff. But I don't think he got the faith gene, either.

From what I've seen, Lincoln himself never officially settled the issue. So if that is your standard of proof, you're going to be left wanting.

His wife, who I think it would be reasonable to assume knew him as well as anyone, seemed to think that he did believe in Christ in the religious sense. Even if one believes that to not be conclusive evidence, it should be for most reasonable people enough evidence to accept that the claim that Lincoln prayed to a Judeo-Christian God would not be classified as a lie.

The fact that one continually sees biblical references should at least speak to the importance of the Bible to the life of Lincoln. In exactly what manner that importance manifested itself it up for intrepretation, but of all the claims that SportShrink has made on this forum, this particular one appears to be the one of the least egregious, even if you do not particularly believe it to be accurate.

That all said, who Lincoln prayed to is fairly irrelevent when discussing the foundations of this country, as he had nothing to do with it.

orange
07-07-2011, 11:47 AM
So qouting Jesus doesn't count as a reference to Christ?

No, it doesn't. Let me show you:

"Tear down this wall."

I don't believe Ronald Reagan is God. I don't see how you could possibly conclude that I believe Ronald Reagan is God from me quoting him. Nor would you have necessarily even known it was him I was quoting.

This, on the other hand - "As a nation, we must come together and call upon Jesus to guide us through unprecedented struggles, and thank Him for the blessings of freedom we so richly enjoy." - leaves no doubt.

As for your other "quote" - I believe you might have uncovered some web legends, there. Do you have sources for this: "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man"?

orange
07-07-2011, 11:56 AM
Rick Perry prays to Jesus.
Abraham Lincoln prayed to Jesus.
.
Rick Perry is like Abraham Lincoln.


This is a lie.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:57 AM
As for your other "quotes" - I believe you might have uncovered some web legends, there. Do you have sources for any of them (particularly "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man")?

http://www.why-the-bible.com/bible.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/BibleStudyTips.html
http://www.hbu.edu/hbu/What_leading_Americans_have_said_about_the_Bible.asp?SnID=2
http://www.alienyouth.us/Links/SOAPPlans/tabid/121/Default.aspx

I can keep adding them if you'd like, typing the quote into google produced quite a few responses.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Rick Perry prays to Jesus.
Abraham Lincoln prayed to Jesus.
.
Rick Perry is like Abraham Lincoln.


This is a lie.

Do you know the difference between being wrong, and lying Orange?

orange
07-07-2011, 12:03 PM
http://www.why-the-bible.com/bible.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/BibleStudyTips.html
http://www.hbu.edu/hbu/What_leading_Americans_have_said_about_the_Bible.asp?SnID=2
http://www.alienyouth.us/Links/SOAPPlans/tabid/121/Default.aspx

I can keep adding them if you'd like, typing the quote into google produced quite a few responses.

I said "SOURCE." Like the letter or speech that had it. As in:
- Ronald Reagan, speech at the Branderburg Gate, June 12, 1987

orange
07-07-2011, 12:07 PM
Do you know the difference between being wrong, and lying Orange?

I know the man keeps calling me a communist. He's a liar. Plain and simple.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 12:07 PM
I said "SOURCE." Like the letter or speech that had it. As in:
- Ronald Reagan, speech at the Branderburg Gate, June 12, 1987

Ok, Orange, I'm done playing this game with you. Most reasonable people would be able to look at the evidence and believe it's plausable Lincoln held a genuine belief in God.

If you don't, that's your business, I'm not wasting anymore time on this irrelevent tangetial discussion.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I know the man keeps calling me a communist. He's a liar. Plain and simple.

Lying implies intent. He must know that you are not a communist but continue to call you one anyway to be "lying."

You are saying, that he is wrong. The people who initially believe the earth was flat were "wrong." They were not "lying."

orange
07-07-2011, 12:09 PM
Ok, Orange, I'm done playing this game with you. Most reasonable people would be able to look at the evidence and believe it's plausable Lincoln held a genuine belief in God.


And everyone reasonable knows that having a "genuine belief in God" doesn't require or even imply Christianity.

Bob Dole
07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Oh for fuck's sake... Stop arguing about shit and start praying!

KILLER_CLOWN
07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
And everyone reasonable knows that having a "genuine belief in God" doesn't require or even imply Christianity.

It does if your genuine, just sayin'. ;)

Jaric
07-07-2011, 12:17 PM
And everyone reasonable knows that having a "genuine belief in God" doesn't require or even imply Christianity.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

That would be a much better point if the evidence in his belief in god didn't come from either quoting or making references to the Christian Bible.

Is that ironclad proof he's a christian? No. It does however make the idea plausable, which is all that I'm saying.

Ok, I am now really done. If you need to have the last word on the subject by all means, this is your chance.

orange
07-07-2011, 06:06 PM
Oh for ****'s sake... Stop arguing about shit and start praying!

We just had a fortyfive minute monsoon here, and I had a personal revelation that I'm going to be repairing some flashing this weekend. I'd be happy to send it south to you...

... for water, maybe Aqua Buddha can get it done.

http://www.pageonekentucky.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/aquabuddha2.jpg

stevieray
07-07-2011, 07:35 PM
It is his opinion he won't be elected for that reason. Not that he can't

But keep playing that Christian victim card. LMAO

won't be elected because of dicrimination?

...nobody said he can't, but you.

you'll have to find something else for your "gotcha" moment.

stevieray
07-07-2011, 08:08 PM
If you need physical proof about Lincoln and Jesus, it is located in Washington, across the street from Ford's Theater @ the Lincoln Museum.

ask for:

The Lincoln Memorial: Album Immortelles in the O.H. Oldroyd Collection, published in 1883. page 366.

..while it is true lincoln didn't believe in Christ for the majority of his life, it was only after the death of his son Willie that he became a believer.

SNR
07-07-2011, 08:16 PM
I never thought I'd be saying this but...

I wish Tom Ca$h would show up in this thread so things could get REALLY entertaining

go bowe
07-07-2011, 08:40 PM
I never thought I'd be saying this but...

I wish Tom Ca$h would show up in this thread so things could get REALLY entertaining

blasphemer...

heretic...

commie bastart...

Jaric
07-07-2011, 09:04 PM
I never thought I'd be saying this but...

I wish Tom Ca$h would show up in this thread so things could get REALLY entertaining

Is he currently banned? I can never keep track.

Pitt Gorilla
07-07-2011, 09:22 PM
:spock:

first off, I've never claimed to be a Christian.

secondly, I thought in this country we don't discriminate based on sex, race, creed or religion...correct?

finally, the discrimination IS evident in the replies this thread..bringing that to light by asking a question doesn't infer being a victim.Lots of people discriminate based on those classifications.

Bowser
07-07-2011, 09:39 PM
I read it three times, but I kept seeing Rick Astley to America: Pray to Jesus, or Else!

That would have been epic awesome.

WilliamTheIrish
07-07-2011, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by sportsshrink
Lincoln prayed to the Judeo Christian God- Jesus?

Only when he saw the gun JW Booth had.

orange
07-07-2011, 09:43 PM
I never thought I'd be saying this but...

I wish Tom Ca$h would show up in this thread so things could get REALLY entertaining

You have stevieray "I'm not a Christian" weighing in with his drivel so the viewpoint is covered - not as stupidly or entertainingly, of course.


John Rembsburg, Abraham Lincoln: Was He a Christian?

Almost immediately after the remains of Abraham Lincoln were laid to rest at Springfield, one of his biographers put forward the claim that he was a devout believer in Christianity. The claim was promptly denied by the dead President’s friends, but only to be renewed again, and again denied. Ever since, the question of Lincoln’s religious belief has been bandied about. This book collects the testimony of more than one hundred witnesses, and devotes more than three hundred pages to answer the question, “Was Abraham Lincoln a Christian?”

The author, a proponent of Freethought or Freethinking, suggests that Lincoln’s religious beliefs were in line with a sort of Deism, or natural religion, and that he didn’t believe in Christianity or other organized religion. While not claiming Lincoln as a Freethinker directly, Remsburg conducts numerous interviews and other research demonstrating Lincoln’s admiration for Freethinkers such as Thomas Paine, and his contempt for religious revivalism. This is a fascinating work that stands apart form the huge mass of books about Lincoln not only by its rarity, but also by its bold thesis at a time when Lincoln worship was at its height and a full 100 years before current researchers began to take a critical and analytical look at Lincoln, the man.

Some excerpts from private letters from William Herndon to Mr. Remsburg, and published for the first time in Abraham Lincoln: Was He a Christian? in 1893.

I was the personal friend of Lincoln from 1834 to the day of his death. In 1843 we entered into a partnership which was never formally dissolved. When he became unpopular in this Congressional district because of his speeches on the Mexican War, I was faithful to him. When he espoused the anti-slavery cause and in the eyes of most men had hopelessly ruined his political prospects, I stood by him, and through the press defended his course. In those dark hours, by our unity of sentiment and by political ostracism, we were driven to a close and enduring friendship. You should take it for granted, then, that I knew Mr. Lincoln well. During all this time, from 1834 to 1862, when I last saw him, he never intimated to me, either directly or indirectly, that he had changed his religious opinions. Had he done so had — he let drop one word or look in that direction, I should have detected it.

That Mr. Lincoln was an Infidel from 1834 to 1661, I know, and that he remained one to the day of his death, I honestly believe. I always understood that he was an Infidel, sometimes bordering on Atheism. I never saw any change in the man, and the change could not have escaped my observation had it happened.

Lincoln’s task was a terrible one. When he took the oath of office his soul was bent on securing harmony among all the people of the North, and so he chose for his cabinet officers his Opponents for the Presidential candidacy in order and as a means of creating a united North. He let all parties, professions, and callings have their way where their wishes did not cut across his own. He was apparently pliant and supple. He ruled men when men thought they were ruling him. He often said to me that the Christian religion was a dangerous element to deal with when aroused. He saw in the Kansas affairs — in the whole history of slavery, in fact — its rigor and encroachments, that Christianity was aroused. It must be controlled, and that in the right direction. Hence he bent to it, fed it, and kept it within bounds, well knowing that it would crush his administration to atoms unless appeased. His oft and oft invocations of God, his conversations with Christians, his apparent respect for Christianity, etc., were all means to an end. And yet sometimes he showed that he hated its nasal whines.

Let me ask the Christian claimant a few questions. Do you mean to say, when you assert that Mr. Lincoln was a Christian, that he believed that Jesus was the Christ of God, as the evangelical world contends? If so, where did you get this information? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a converted man and that he so declared? If so, where, when, and before whom did he declare or reveal it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln joined a Church? If so, what Church did he join, and when did he join it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a secret Christian, acting under the cloak of the devil to advance Christianity? If so, what is your authority? If you will tell me when it was that the Creator caught in his almighty arms, Abraham, and held him fast while he poured the oil of grace on his rebellious soul, then I will know when it was that he was converted from Infidel views to Christianity.

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0210_Lincoln_a_Christian-.html

stevieray
07-07-2011, 09:53 PM
You have stevieray "I'm not a Christian"




link?

orange
07-07-2011, 09:55 PM
link?

I'll show you saying you're a Christian when you show me Lincoln saying he was. Deal?

stevieray
07-08-2011, 08:03 AM
I'll show you saying you're a Christian when you show me Lincoln saying he was. Deal?


....already did that.

RNR
07-08-2011, 12:05 PM
I'll show you saying you're a Christian when you show me Lincoln saying he was. Deal?

He contradicted himself on the subject to say the least~


“In regards to this great Book (the Bible), I have but to say it is the best
gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was
communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right
from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and
hereafter, are found portrayed in it.”

“The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

“My earlier views at the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them”

“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.”

RNR
07-08-2011, 12:16 PM
I'll show you saying you're a Christian when you show me Lincoln saying he was. Deal?

I was visiting stevieray a few years back and we spoke about religion briefly. I do not recall clearly what was said but remember him saying something along the lines of his beliefs were non conventional. I do know he is a stand up man and I believe he would admit to it if he said it~

orange
07-08-2011, 02:49 PM
....already did that.

No, you didn't. You put up a third hand account that, even if true, falls short of Lincoln saying he was a Christian (I love Jesus, too; what's not to love? "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" "Forgive them for they know not what they do" et al; doesn't make me a Christian).

You also failed to read the rest of the page, including the direct rebuttal from Abe's lifelong friend and confidante, so I helpfully posted it here including the link (something you somehow neglected).

Anyone interested can read all the comments on that site - that Christian site - by Christians pointing out that Lincoln was not a Christian.


[edit] damned page-break. Here's the link again: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0210_Lincoln_a_Christian-.html

orange
07-08-2011, 02:55 PM
I was visiting stevieray a few years back and we spoke about religion briefly. I do not recall clearly what was said but remember him saying something along the lines of his beliefs were non conventional. I do know he is a stand up man and I believe he would admit to it if he said it~

For a non-Christian, he sure campaigns hard for every little bit of Christian-revisionist propaganda he can come across. It's no wonder people think he has skin in the game.

Jaric
07-08-2011, 02:57 PM
No, you didn't. You put up a third hand account that, even if true, falls short of Lincoln saying he was a Christian (I love Jesus, too; what's not to love? "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" "Forgive them for they know not what they do" et al; doesn't make me a Christian).

You also failed to read the rest of the page, including the direct rebuttal from Abe's lifelong friend and confidante, so I helpfully posted it here including the link (something you somehow neglected).

Anyone interested can read all the comments on that site - that Christian site - by Christians pointing out that Lincoln was not a Christian.


[edit] damned page-break. Here's the link again: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0210_Lincoln_a_Christian-.html

Ummm, ORANGE, did you actually read the whole thing?

He finds himself in a hospitable home. Flowers are blooming around it; balmy breezes sweep through the halls. He breathes an atmosphere of restful peace. A saintly woman sits by his side, opens the New Testament, and reads the words of One who Himself had been in the wilderness. She talks of God as a father, Jesus Christ as a Brother. New truths dawn upon him, and the Bible becomes a different book from what it has been in the past. Little does Lucy Gilman Speed know that God has crowned her with glory and honor, to be a ministering spirit in leading a bewildered wanderer out of the desert of despair and unbelief, that he may do great things for his fellow-men. Weeks go by, the gloom and anguish disappear. The period of doubt has gone, never to return. From that hour the Bible is to be his rule of life and duty.

His biographers – those who knew him later in life – have this to say of him: “The late but splendid maturity of Lincoln’s mind and character dates from this time; and although he grew in strength and knowledge to the end, from this year we observe a steadiness and sobriety of thought and purpose discernible in his life.“5

Jaric
07-08-2011, 02:59 PM
Also.

This estimate does not include the service rendered by Lucy Gilman Speed. When the great account is made up, and the angels of God come from the harvest fields to lay their sheaves at the feet of the Master, hers will be the changed life of Abraham Lincoln.

As this biography of Lincoln unfolds, there will be seen, as the years go by and the responsibilities of life roll upon him, a reverent recognition of Divine Providence, an increasing faith and childlike trust in God.6

orange
07-08-2011, 02:59 PM
Ummm, ORANGE, did you actually read the whole thing?

Yeah I did. You're quoting one biographer. Read the comments. Which trash him.

p.s. please point out Lincoln's actual words in that piece. And the word "Jesus" or "Christ."

or, as one of his best friends said:

Let me ask the Christian claimant a few questions. Do you mean to say, when you assert that Mr. Lincoln was a Christian, that he believed that Jesus was the Christ of God, as the evangelical world contends? If so, where did you get this information? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a converted man and that he so declared? If so, where, when, and before whom did he declare or reveal it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln joined a Church? If so, what Church did he join, and when did he join it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a secret Christian, acting under the cloak of the devil to advance Christianity? If so, what is your authority? If you will tell me when it was that the Creator caught in his almighty arms, Abraham, and held him fast while he poured the oil of grace on his rebellious soul, then I will know when it was that he was converted from Infidel views to Christianity.

Jaric
07-08-2011, 03:09 PM
Yeah I did. You're quoting one biographer. Read the comments. Which trash him.So you're putting more faith into comments by random people on the internet over an actual biographer?

Why are we even still talking about this? At least the founders tangent was somewhat relevant.

Jaric
07-08-2011, 03:11 PM
or, as one of his best friends said:
I can report what his WIFE said on the subject if you want me to.

As I said before, there is evidence to suggest both positions could be correct.

Jaric
07-08-2011, 03:13 PM
One thing I do find intersesting, is how much this discussion mirrors the one that took place in another thread about Lincoln's views on slavery.

There seemed to be multiple sources of evidence proving either side of that equation as well.

I'm starting to think "honest" Abe might have been a little bit less honest that his moniker implies.

RNR
07-08-2011, 03:18 PM
For a non-Christian, he sure campaigns hard for every little bit of Christian-revisionist propaganda he can come across. It's no wonder people think he has skin in the game.

He and I do not agree on the subject and I will not speak for him and his beliefs. I will say he is a very good person and has a good heart. I do consider him a friend~

RNR
07-08-2011, 03:24 PM
One thing I do find intersesting, is how much this discussion mirrors the one that took place in another thread about Lincoln's views on slavery.

There seemed to be multiple sources of evidence proving either side of that equation as well.

I'm starting to think "honest" Abe might have been a little bit less honest that his moniker implies.

I am not a big fan of the man and think he has been reinvented over the years. I will say most of his quotes lead me to think this statement is true "Lincoln’s religious beliefs were in line with a sort of Deism, or natural religion" This is very close to my beliefs also~

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:05 PM
No, you didn't. You put up a third hand account that, even if true, falls short of Lincoln saying he was a Christian (I love Jesus, too; what's not to love? "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" "Forgive them for they know not what they do" et al; doesn't make me a Christian).

You also failed to read the rest of the page, including the direct rebuttal from Abe's lifelong friend and confidante, so I helpfully posted it here including the link (something you somehow neglected).

Anyone interested can read all the comments on that site - that Christian site - by Christians pointing out that Lincoln was not a Christian.


[edit] damned page-break. Here's the link again: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0210_Lincoln_a_Christian-.html

BS. I pointed to physical evidence...you haven't disputed squat.

failed to read the "rest" of the page? that's your page, not mine.

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:08 PM
For a non-Christian, he sure campaigns hard for every little bit of Christian-revisionist propaganda he can come across. It's no wonder people think he has skin in the game.

...who said I was a non Christian? you.
..who also said they would show I've made the claim that I am? you.

revisionist porpoganda? you wish.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:10 PM
BS. I pointed to physical evidence...

... evidence Of Lincoln not saying he was a Christian. On the web page you refuse to link to (probably because it's embarassingly full of Christian-revisionist nonsense like the "quotes" I've already exploded on you multiple times).


Let me ask the Christian claimant a few questions. Do you mean to say, when you assert that Mr. Lincoln was a Christian, that he believed that Jesus was the Christ of God, as the evangelical world contends? If so, where did you get this information? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a converted man and that he so declared? If so, where, when, and before whom did he declare or reveal it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln joined a Church? If so, what Church did he join, and when did he join it? Do you mean to say that Mr. Lincoln was a secret Christian, acting under the cloak of the devil to advance Christianity? If so, what is your authority? If you will tell me when it was that the Creator caught in his almighty arms, Abraham, and held him fast while he poured the oil of grace on his rebellious soul, then I will know when it was that he was converted from Infidel views to Christianity. - William Herndon, Lincoln's lifelong friend and partner. As published in Abraham Lincoln: Was He A Christian? by John R. Remsburg, 1893. http://www.researchonline.net/catalog/07014.htm

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:14 PM
... evidence Of Lincoln not saying he was a Christian. On the web page you refuse to link to (probably because it's embarassingly full of Christian-revisionist nonsense like the "quotes" I've already exploded on you multiple times).

exploded on me? pfffffffft. GTFOY.

do your own damn homework.

I gave you:

the location.
the book.
the year it was published.
the page number.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:23 PM
...who said I was a non Christian? you.


...


:spock:

first off, I've never claimed to be a Christian.



Furthermore, since your brain seems to be too dim to understand it:

... stevieray "I'm not a Christian" ...

is MOCKING your disavowal. I'm certainly not saying you're not a Christian. Quite the opposite. And the fact that you DEMAND that I post a direct quote from you saying you're a Christian is UTTERLY LAUGHABLE in the context of this argument where NOBODY can post a direct quote from Lincoln saying he's a Christian.

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:26 PM
...




Furthermore, since your brain seems to be too dim to understand it:



is MOCKING your disavowal.


...that's not the quote I was referring to...but by all means, just focus on me, instead of the facts presented.

you're a dipshit donkey fan orange. know why? because you'll spend another weekend here trying to prop yourself up.

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:27 PM
DEMAND


....that was you, bubba.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:29 PM
....that was you, bubba.

...

You have stevieray "I'm not a Christian" link?

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:32 PM
...

asked you to back up your claim, which you still haven't been able to do.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:33 PM
I gave you:

the location.
the book.
the year it was published.
the page number.

What you didn't give - there or anywhere else - was Lincoln saying he was a Christian.

stevieray
07-08-2011, 04:35 PM
What you didn't give - there or anywhere else - was Lincoln saying he was a Christian.

page 366.

buhbye orange.

....murals to paint, engines to build.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:37 PM
asked you to back up your claim, which you still haven't been able to do.

You obviously don't even know what "my claim" was. I'll repeat:

Furthermore, since your brain seems to be too dim to understand it:

... stevieray "I'm not a Christian" ...

is MOCKING your disavowal. I'm certainly not saying you're not a Christian. Quite the opposite. And the fact that you DEMAND that I post a direct quote from you saying you're a Christian is UTTERLY LAUGHABLE in the context of this argument where NOBODY can post a direct quote from Lincoln saying he's a Christian.

orange
07-08-2011, 04:38 PM
....murals to paint, engines to build, ass to cover

That's right, run away, now!!

The Mad Crapper
07-08-2011, 05:14 PM
...that's not the quote I was referring to...but by all means, just focus on me, instead of the facts presented.

you're a dipshit donkey fan orange. know why? because you'll spend another weekend here trying to prop yourself up.

The guy is a big fat fucking turd. No doubt whatsoever. He can't do one push-up.

ROFL

go bowe
07-08-2011, 08:27 PM
The guy is a big fat fucking turd. No doubt whatsoever. He can't do one push-up.

ROFL

HEY!

quit picking on me, it's not my fault i can't do a pushup...

scott free
07-09-2011, 12:20 AM
Goshagolly, glad i tuned in to learn that any form of Christian prayer is worthy of such scorn... dont you see Donger? c'mon *wink wink*... its these lunatics that help fuel the ultimate destruction of our world, right?

I hope that not only myself, but everyone here, gets a chance to hold the universe in their grasp... to have every answer, to know beyond doubt that they certainly know better than the uneducated, simple minded masses, to have experienced another mans life, to have the sheer genius to be able to tell us what this universe is... and isnt.

KC, your snobbery is a detriment, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

KILLER_CLOWN
07-09-2011, 12:46 AM
KC, your snobbery is a detriment, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

eh?

Chiefshrink
07-09-2011, 12:53 AM
Why would it offend me? I have no problem with The Bible and in fact enjoy reading passages from it. (The Book of Job is my favorite)

Putting your foolish strawman argument aside, the reason it makes him unelectable is because it's essentially an admission he doesn't know how to fix the problem.

If you enter a room and it's dark do you

A. turn on the switch

or

B. Pray to God to re-enact Genesis and "Let there be light!"

99.9% of people turn on the light switch because they know that is the solution to their problem. If you take your car to an automechanic and he tells you to pray for God to fix your engine it's because he doesn't know how to do it. Otherwise he would just fix the engine.

People turn to faith for questions they cannot answer. That is the point of faith. There is nothing wrong with faith, however if we are looking for leadership, it might be nice to elect someone with answers to the problems we face.

Talk about strawman agument with the 'light switch' and "broke engine" analysis. Glad life is so simple for you by 'just' flipping a switch to fix it.:rolleyes:

Tell that to the farmer who has not had any rain on his crops for weeks and maybe months on end who is not allowed to use his irrigation system(if he has one) because of a severe water shortage in the area and everyone's wells are damn near dry to "just flip a switch" and all will be well and there is no need to pray to a god or God.

I speak from experience being a son of grain elevator mgr, that I never met a farmer that did not only believe in God but prayed on regular basis. These farmers would always comment on a regular basis, "you try to prepare as much as possible for those potential bad years and some could be avoided with proper preparation("flipping the switch" as YOU say) but some years were so bad it literally came down to being on your knees in prayer and God would always provide. :thumb:

Jaric, praying to a god or God actually insults your intelligence because in your simple world of "flipping a switch" all will be well.:thumb:

Chiefshrink
07-09-2011, 12:54 AM
eh?

My thoughts exactly:spock:

Jaric
07-09-2011, 11:06 AM
Talk about strawman agument with the 'light switch' and "broke engine" analysis. Glad life is so simple for you by 'just' flipping a switch to fix it.:rolleyes:There is another phrase that I don't think means what you think it means. I made no strawman argument. I made an example to explain MY argument. Had I attempted to misrepresent YOUR argument, as you did in the second sentence here, that would be a strawman argument.

Tell that to the farmer who has not had any rain on his crops for weeks and maybe months on end who is not allowed to use his irrigation system(if he has one) because of a severe water shortage in the area and everyone's wells are damn near dry to "just flip a switch" and all will be well and there is no need to pray to a god or God. We are talking about solutions to a problem. Some solutions are easy, like turning on a light switch. Other solutions are hard, like fixing a broken car engine. (at least for me, I can change my oil and that's really about it.)

I speak from experience being a son of grain elevator mgr, that I never met a farmer that did not only believe in God but prayed on regular basis. These farmers would always comment on a regular basis, "you try to prepare as much as possible for those potential bad years and some could be avoided with proper preparation("flipping the switch" as YOU say) but some years were so bad it literally came down to being on your knees in prayer and God would always provide. :thumb:Good? Great, pray all you want to. Your right to do so is constitutionally protected and I would never dream of infringing on it. I'm not saying I think Rick Perry should not be praying. What I am saying is that is not a solution to the problem.

Jaric, praying to a god or God actually insults your intelligence because in your simple world of "flipping a switch" all will be well.:thumb:
I told you once before, you don't know me. Don't pretend that you do.

Backwards Masking
07-09-2011, 11:28 AM
[QUOTE=sportsshrink;7738343]Tell that to the farmer who has not had any rain on his crops for weeks and maybe months on end who is not allowed to use his irrigation system(if he has one) because of a severe water shortage in the area and everyone's wells are damn near dry to "just flip a switch" and all will be well and there is no need to pray to a god or God.

QUOTE]

Well, the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over even though it obviously isn't working. Since the Prayer Option for these farmers surely has been exhausted at this point, maybe they should contact a tribe of educated Native Americans to perform a Rain Dance. :hmmm:

Dave Lane
07-09-2011, 11:38 AM
My mother aways said "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Sage words you would do well to observe.

Talk about strawman agument with the 'light switch' and "broke engine" analysis. Glad life is so simple for you by 'just' flipping a switch to fix it.:rolleyes:

Tell that to the farmer who has not had any rain on his crops for weeks and maybe months on end who is not allowed to use his irrigation system(if he has one) because of a severe water shortage in the area and everyone's wells are damn near dry to "just flip a switch" and all will be well and there is no need to pray to a god or God.

I speak from experience being a son of grain elevator mgr, that I never met a farmer that did not only believe in God but prayed on regular basis. These farmers would always comment on a regular basis, "you try to prepare as much as possible for those potential bad years and some could be avoided with proper preparation("flipping the switch" as YOU say) but some years were so bad it literally came down to being on your knees in prayer and God would always provide. :thumb:

Jaric, praying to a god or God actually insults your intelligence because in your simple world of "flipping a switch" all will be well.:thumb:

go bowe
07-09-2011, 12:10 PM
My mother aways said "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Sage words you would do well to observe.

your mother is abraham lincoln?

RNR
07-09-2011, 12:11 PM
your mother is abraham lincoln?

LMAO

Chiefshrink
07-09-2011, 01:26 PM
There is another phrase that I don't think means what you think it means. I made no strawman argument. I made an example to explain MY argument. Had I attempted to misrepresent YOUR argument, as you did in the second sentence here, that would be a strawman argument.

We are talking about solutions to a problem. Some solutions are easy, like turning on a light switch. Other solutions are hard, like fixing a broken car engine. (at least for me, I can change my oil and that's really about it.)

Good? Great, pray all you want to. Your right to do so is constitutionally protected and I would never dream of infringing on it. I'm not saying I think Rick Perry should not be praying. What I am saying is that is not a solution to the problem.


I told you once before, you don't know me. Don't pretend that you do.

You totally misrepresent. Comparing the ease of flipping a switch/fixing an engine to the difficulty of getting water to crops when all avenues have been exhausted/prevented. Seriously?? Totally strawman!

Pride and arrogance(a la unchecked ego) keep a man from "humility" thus hindering his own self-observance that he is actually a very feeble and vulnerable being in need of God.

You try to hide your arrogance much like Jenson but it eventually bleeds through. The whole concept of God or praying to a God for help as 'part of a solution' is "laughable" for you.

Pretend to know you? No I don't pretend to know you, I just read what you write and read between the lines. Apparently you must feel I am mis-interpreting you but I doubt it.

Again, the whole concept of praying to a God for help or even believing in a God for that matter who is relational to mankind "totally" insults your intelligence. But yet in your own delusional self-observance you see yourself as a humble,gentle wise man who tolerates the "little people" who just don't get it and how dare these little people challenge me "that my shit stinks" therefore "I" must gently correct their "small thinking".

Natural law came from God pure and simple. It is illogical that it came from man. Aristotle and Plato just obeserved in nature and in man what God created "naturally" in both nature and in man's mind and heart.

"Useful Idiots" supposedly coined by Lenin but know one really knows for sure. Lenin making fun of the Westerners/Americans falling prey to the greed of capitalism only to eventually sell to the "Commies" the actual rope that will hang America because of her greed.

Never said that the phrase "Church and State" were in the Constitution but when you read it the concept is surely there and was the brilliance of Jefferson's mind to see this:thumb:

However, as brilliant as Jefferson's mind was even his ego was not immune to the lure of the Enlightened Period ( a la replacing God with Science as opposed to God and Science being on the same page more than you think)

Like you Jaric he(Jefferson) only saw Jesus as a great teacher and philosopher but his ego could not deal with the "nonsensical silliness" of actual unexplained "miracles" everything from "creation" to "raising the dead" a la now you have the Jeffersonian Bible.

I will apologize to all here who I have used the term useful idiot for not thoroughly explaining what I have meant by that. Obviously, the original definition of "useful idiot" has no relation to how I am using it.

When I use it I am essentially saying to those people that you are not educated enough not only on the issues. But also on the manipulation by those in power who puposely deceive you to help get their tyrannical agenda completed without looking at the both sides of the argument thinking that you have thus my definition "useful idiot". Jaric thank you for recognizing this because you knew what I meant.

Thus in the end you not only "politcally handcuff"-stolen liberties,freedoms & property from America "We The People"-a la Tea Party who you dislike so much, but you also "F" yourself in the end. Only to realize later that you were a "simpleton pawn" to be used for this so-called "Marxist Progressive Agenda" that is good for all because you chose either 'knowingly or unknowingly" to play the role of "useful idiot":rolleyes:

I know I come off very salty and may have presented it as a personal attack using the term "useful idiot". But in no way have I ever meant it as personal attacks. Quite frankly I like everyone in this forum.
I pray for alot of folks here in this forum believe it not on both sides of the aisle. Life is too short to be angry and bitter.

But I am passionate about my God and country will defend them and will never go after anyone unless they throw the first punch and when they do I don't take it personally ever because I see the big picture of God. :thumb:

You are good man Jaric as well as Orange,Direckshun,Jenson, Dirk, Dave, etc......

Chiefshrink
07-09-2011, 01:30 PM
My mother aways said "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Sage words you would do well to observe.

Back at ya my Sage friend:p

Jaric
07-09-2011, 04:21 PM
You totally misrepresent. Comparing the ease of flipping a switch/fixing an engine to the difficulty of getting water to crops when all avenues have been exhausted/prevented. Seriously?? Totally strawman!:banghead:

Once again, I am attempting to use examples to explain my argument. By definition that is not a strawman.

My point is this. We face many problems. Some are small, some are big. Lets use the light switch example for a moment. Through time, that problem (darkness) would be resolved in several different ways. You solve that in a far different way than primitive man did. Because through human ingenuity we've developed solutions to this problem like electricity and light bulbs. You do not need to ask Gods help to illuminate your house. You simply turn on the switch and go on about your business.

No, man turns to God only when he is faced with a problem he does not know how to solve on his own. He then either prays for the ability to solve it himself, or asks God to intervene for him in a more direct manner.

Pride and arrogance(a la unchecked ego) keep a man from "humility" thus hindering his own self-observance that he is actually a very feeble and vulnerable being in need of God.

You try to hide your arrogance much like Jenson but it eventually bleeds through. The whole concept of God or praying to a God for help as 'part of a solution' is "laughable" for you.
I am fully aware of my own insignificance when measured on a cosmic level thank you.

Pretend to know you? No I don't pretend to know you, I just read what you write and read between the lines. Apparently you must feel I am mis-interpreting you but I doubt it.
No, you read what you want to hear. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a "useful idiot" or a Marxist Marxing Alinskyizer. It's a defense mechanism for absorbing criticism of things you've determined to be truth. This whole argument spawned because I corrected you that the founders did not found this country on religion. Because they did not. And now you seem intent to make me out to be a Godless heathen. Rather than directly respond to my criticism of your ideas, you instead feel it better to assume I have some kind of agenda for disagreeing with you.

You don't know the slightest thing about my religious beliefs. You don't know for example that I spent the first 18 years of my life as a Catholic in the Catholic Church. I was an alter boy, attended Sunday school, was even confirmed. You don't know that as I grew older the message the church preached no longer spoke to me the way it once did. I started to ask questions. I didn't like the answers I received so I set out on my own path. I now consider myself agnostic. I believe, or guess rather assume there is a God because I cannot find a better explanation for how we got here. I don't claim to know what manner or method that God might be, but I assume that it exists in some form or fashion.

I enjoy reading the Bible. As I mentioned previously I love the Book of Job as well as the Gospel of Matthew. I think if one did the best they could to emulate Jesus, then if there is an afterlife and we are to be judged, I would assume that person would end up ok.

I also enjoy and respect eastern religions. I am not that familiar with the Koran but what study I have done (admittedly very little) leads me to believe that the conclusion the extremists we're fighting now is not the conclusion that was intended.


Again, the whole concept of praying to a God for help or even believing in a God for that matter who is relational to mankind "totally" insults your intelligence. But yet in your own delusional self-observance you see yourself as a humble,gentle wise man who tolerates the "little people" who just don't get it and how dare these little people challenge me "that my shit stinks" therefore "I" must gently correct their "small thinking".
Once again, you seem intent on displaying your ignorance. You don't know how I feel about God. I corrected you because you were wrong. Not to make myself feel better.

Chiefshrink
07-10-2011, 07:16 PM
:banghead:

Once again, I am attempting to use examples to explain my argument. By definition that is not a strawman.

My point is this. We face many problems. Some are small, some are big. Lets use the light switch example for a moment. Through time, that problem (darkness) would be resolved in several different ways. You solve that in a far different way than primitive man did. Because through human ingenuity we've developed solutions to this problem like electricity and light bulbs. You do not need to ask Gods help to illuminate your house. You simply turn on the switch and go on about your business.

No, man turns to God only when he is faced with a problem he does not know how to solve on his own. He then either prays for the ability to solve it himself, or asks God to intervene for him in a more direct manner.

I am fully aware of my own insignificance when measured on a cosmic level thank you.

No, you read what you want to hear. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a "useful idiot" or a Marxist Marxing Alinskyizer. It's a defense mechanism for absorbing criticism of things you've determined to be truth. This whole argument spawned because I corrected you that the founders did not found this country on religion. Because they did not. And now you seem intent to make me out to be a Godless heathen. Rather than directly respond to my criticism of your ideas, you instead feel it better to assume I have some kind of agenda for disagreeing with you.

You don't know the slightest thing about my religious beliefs. You don't know for example that I spent the first 18 years of my life as a Catholic in the Catholic Church. I was an alter boy, attended Sunday school, was even confirmed. You don't know that as I grew older the message the church preached no longer spoke to me the way it once did. I started to ask questions. I didn't like the answers I received so I set out on my own path. I now consider myself agnostic. I believe, or guess rather assume there is a God because I cannot find a better explanation for how we got here. I don't claim to know what manner or method that God might be, but I assume that it exists in some form or fashion.

I enjoy reading the Bible. As I mentioned previously I love the Book of Job as well as the Gospel of Matthew. I think if one did the best they could to emulate Jesus, then if there is an afterlife and we are to be judged, I would assume that person would end up ok.

I also enjoy and respect eastern religions. I am not that familiar with the Koran but what study I have done (admittedly very little) leads me to believe that the conclusion the extremists we're fighting now is not the conclusion that was intended.

Once again, you seem intent on displaying your ignorance. You don't know how I feel about God. I corrected you because you were wrong. Not to make myself feel better.

All I am saying is that it is an unfair comparison whether it fits your definition of "strawman" or not. Split hairs all you like. Yes some men do turn to God whether life is good or bad and that is how God desires it to be. But unfortunately most men do not turn to God until it gets impossible as you say,
because they have trusted only in themselves up to their point of desperation as opposed to including God from the beginning of any aspect of their life.

As I read your posts in this thread to others especially to orange, I had a hunch you were soured along the way of your religous journey/experience because some of your replies showed great passion and admiration for the "Word". I have always had a special place in my heart for Catholics because of my own experience as a Protestant who attended a Catholic college and started a bible study in the dorms at the time. Soon I began to learn about the Catholic faith and heard many of the disappointments and hard unanswered questions that many of my Catholic friends had.

And by all means many of my Protestant friends had these same disappointments and unanswered questions as well including myself when I was very young. But then as I pursued these issues a very wise pastor finally pointed me to a passage in I Cor.13:12. You may know it already but it provided great peace to my soul although I had read it many times before. Paul writes:

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror(our earthly life now), then(afterlife with Christ) we shall see face to face. Now I know in part;(our earthly life now) then(afterlife with Christ) I shall know fully, even as I am fully known(Chirst knows us fully now during our earthly life).

Bottom line: Man's sin has prevented total understanding on this earth thus man has tried to answer these difficult perplexing questions(everything from creation of the earth, to the resurrection, to why innocent people die unjustly whether it be due to crime,disease,war or catastrophe) with a finite mind in a fallen world.

A finite mind who is prevented from knowing the infinite mind at least for
now. It's not that God doesn't want you to know, it's that our chosen falleness prevents us to see the whole picture of God's intentions since the fall.

Thus man gets frustrated and begins to answer these questions apart from God and thus creates his own religions when his own 'finite mind' cannot understand thus(Enlightenment Period - a la Science without God,Mormonism,Jehovah's Witness,Islam,Buddahism,Hinduism,...etc the list goes on.

For the secular humanist, "spiritual faith" is insulting if science cannot answer it therefore it must not be true, not realizing that a fallen world with a fallen man that has a finite mind also seeks answers from a "finite science" a science that was created by God as well but also 'limited' to fallness. See the insanity now?

But the cool part is that when we die and see Christ face to face(assuming you are a believer) then we will fully know EVERYTHING; the who,why,what, and where on every aspect of our lives along with how everything came to be and then you will have no more questions for God because you will know why He did what he did and why you could not know everything during your earthly life.

But like Paul said, God's grace is sufficient for thee and if the crucifixion and sacrifice of God's son isn't enough for man to know God's love for him then as Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead".

It really does come down to faith Jaric and let I Cor.13:12 be your comfort for awhile and allow for your return to Christ because he not only awaits for your return but he literally pursues you at every turn whether you realize it or not.

"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul"?

Gaining the 'whole world' for some is not always 'materialism' but more often than not it is "total understanding" in the "here and now" and when perplexing questions are not answered or adversity hits and can't be explained then man sells out.

Don't sell out just yet Jaric because your heart still misses your Savior.

And you know it;)

Count Zarth
07-10-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm willing to accept some religious baggage if it means making better decisions for the country.

Chiefshrink
07-10-2011, 08:28 PM
I'm willing to accept some religious baggage if it means making better decisions for the country.

Hey at least it's a start for ya;)

Count Zarth
07-10-2011, 09:46 PM
Hey at least it's a start for ya;)

It's the lesser of two evils and a sad commentary on the state of our political scene.

And a religious president would make for some pretty good comedy along the way.

Chiefshrink
07-10-2011, 10:32 PM
It's the lesser of two evils and a sad commentary on the state of our political scene.

And a religious president would make for some pretty good comedy along the way.

Like Reagan uh? Believe it or not he was a Christian and prayed everyday but he didn't wear it on his sleeves. Maybe that is what worries some of you that our President might wear it on their sleeves to much?