PDA

View Full Version : General Politics Has the time for truly great American Presidents ended?


Bump
07-07-2011, 03:01 PM
JFK was the last truly great American President and Teddy Roosevelt. We haven't seen another president since that Americans could say that was a truly great American. One that could band his country together and inspire.

I'm thinking that there may never be another truly great President. I think we may as well elect a panel of certain CEO's from various industries as a board. Because that's who makes every single decision in this country and they pay a lot of money to have what they want done.

Have we seen the last great American President?

Donger
07-07-2011, 03:03 PM
JFK was the last truly great American President and Teddy Roosevelt. We haven't seen another president since that Americans could say that was a truly great American. One that could band his country together and inspire.

I'm thinking that there may never be another truly great President. I think we may as well elect a panel of certain CEO's from various industries as a board. Because that's who makes every single decision in this country and they pay a lot of money to have what they want done.

Have we seen the last great American President?

JFK? Why?

Pants
07-07-2011, 03:05 PM
How can we make lobbying punishable by death? That would probably fix this country pretty good.

HonestChieffan
07-07-2011, 03:06 PM
JFK...great? Wut?

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:07 PM
How can we make lobbying punishable by death? That would probably fix this country pretty good.

I agree, but IT'S THE FIRST AMENDMENT

fuck that, change it, break it, whatever. Lincoln broke some amendments during the civil war for the good of the people, do it again.

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:07 PM
JFK...great? Wut?

absolutely

Donger
07-07-2011, 03:07 PM
absolutely

Why?

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:08 PM
Why?

because

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:09 PM
and RFK probably would have been if he hadn't been killed

Donger
07-07-2011, 03:09 PM
because

Oh. You don't know what you are talking about. Got it.

ChiTown
07-07-2011, 03:10 PM
You are a fucking idiot

Brock
07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
They just don't come around very often.

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
Oh. You don't know what you are talking about. Got it.

he truly inspired people in the 60's

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
You are a ****ing idiot

of course I am, I don't believe everything I am told. That would indeed, make me an idiot here.

Iowanian
07-07-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't agree with you.


I think Great Presidents are a product of ability and the opportunity to be great.

FDR may as well be Grover Cleveland if not for the economic troubles and circumstances brought on by WWII.

I think times of extremes, economic crisis, war and circumstances give a president the opportunity, and I also think it's pretty damn hard to judge how good of a job a President has done for a number of years to assess the impact of their decisions.

Brock
07-07-2011, 03:16 PM
he truly inspired people in the 60's

To do what?

Iowanian
07-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Kennedy wasn't a great President. If people look past the camelot bullshit, Kennedy F'd up a lot of things that are overlooked because of his untimely end. He was elected in the midst of shady votes, Bay of Pigs, hosing around on his wife among others. He also dealt with a few things well, like the Russians and Cuba.


I don't think Kennedy was any better president than Clinton or either of the Bushs'.

Amnorix
07-07-2011, 03:17 PM
Invariably, when people think something today is far, FAR worse than it was before, whether "before" is 10 years or 100 or 1,000 years ago, it is because they have no idea what it was truly like before. They compare the "bad" of now to an idealized, unrealistic and inaccurate mental image of how good it was before.

Let me help you on this with a few examples:

a hypocrite in public life, the world will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate or an impostor, whether you have abandoned good principles, or whether you ever had any?

A crafty and lecherous old hypocrite whose very statue seems to gloat on the wenches as they walk the States House yard.


Filthy Story-Teller, Despot, Liar, Thief, Braggart, Buffoon, Usurper, Monster, Ignoramus Abe, Old Scoundrel, Perjurer, Robher, Swindler, Tyrant, Field-Butcher, Land-Pirate.


http://www.insults.net/html/historical/political_insults.html

His idea of getting hold of the right end of the stick is to snatch it from the hands of somebody who is using it effectively, and to hit him over the head with it.


Like rotten mackerel by moonlight, he shines and stinks.

That dark designing sordid ambitious vain proud arrogant and vindictive knave.


The moral character of Jefferson was repulsive. Continually puling about liberty, equality, and the degrading curse of slavery, he brought his own children to the hammer, and made money of his debaucheries.


"Mr. Jefferson has reason to reflect upon himself. How he will get rid of his remorse in his retirement, I know not. He must know that he leaves the government infinitely worse than he found it, and that from his own error or ignorance." - Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, April 18, 1808

orange
07-07-2011, 03:19 PM
A case can certainly be made for Kennedy. He had some biggies:

Facing down the Russkies in Berlin and Cuba
Tax cut that spurred economy
Test-Ban Treaty
Peace Corps
NASA
Got the ball rolling on Civil Rights Act of 1964

HonestChieffan
07-07-2011, 03:19 PM
and RFK probably would have been if he hadn't been killed


would have been what?

Donger
07-07-2011, 03:19 PM
he truly inspired people in the 60's

LMAO

ChiTown
07-07-2011, 03:20 PM
To do what?

To smoke pot and trip on LSD.

Detoxing
07-07-2011, 03:26 PM
We'll never have one. It's not because the man himself is not great, but because some group of people will find some reason to bitch and complain and argue in order to push their agenda. It's not about what's right, and possibly may never have been. It's about selfishness and getting what YOU want. So no one could ever be "great" in America.

Americans, when it comes to politics, are whiny, vindictive, angry dick bags.

Just look at CP/DC. It's a microcosm of US politics.

ChiTown
07-07-2011, 03:27 PM
We'll never have one. It's not because the man himself is not great, but because some group of people will find some reason to bitch and complain and argue in order to push their agenda. It's not about what's right, and possibly may never have been. It's about selfishness and getting what YOU want. So no one could ever be "great" in America.

Americans, when it comes to politics, are whiny, vindictive, angry dick bags.

Just look at CP/DC. It's a microcosm of US politics.

Travel the World a little bit and get back to me on your Americans and Politics view.

orange
07-07-2011, 03:29 PM
Travel the World a little bit and get back to me on your Americans and Politics view.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Try posting what you think you said.

HonestChieffan
07-07-2011, 03:29 PM
To smoke pot and trip on LSD.

Viet Nam was a hoot. Bay of Pigs. Or something.

Detoxing
07-07-2011, 03:30 PM
Travel the World a little bit and get back to me on your Americans and Politics view.

Why would that change my perspective? Because other countries are worse? That doesn't make me feel any better about what's wrong with this country. And it only seems like it's getting worse.

ChiTown
07-07-2011, 03:31 PM
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Try posting what you think you said.

LOL. What part of travel the World, and get back to me on American's and Politics didn't you understand?

Iowanian
07-07-2011, 03:31 PM
He might be right, what could have been will now likely be cut off at the knees due to the excess of information on the web and within technology.


I may be destined to be the greatest President in the history of the United States, but we'll likely never know because in a campaign, someone will link me to CP and in a debate, some female candidate with ask "In 2007 on a website known as Chiefsplanet, did you or did you not call some woman a floppy cooter'd-tater hog".

Feminazis will gasp, the New York Times will request via FOIA that kyle provide a history of my postings, poop threads are printed, and the world misses out on the best chance at a return to greatness in our century...


No Great Men will want that burden and won't run, leaving it to D-bags like the one holding down the iron throne now.

Bump
07-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Travel the World a little bit and get back to me on your Americans and Politics view.

yes, third world countries are worse. Thank you for that wonderful insight. That doesn't change my opinion and it shouldn't change anybody else's for that matter.

Chocolate Hog
07-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Reagan had the best rhetoric. Guys like Pat would label him extreme these days.

Chocolate Hog
07-07-2011, 03:36 PM
Kennedy wasn't a great President. If people look past the camelot bullshit, Kennedy F'd up a lot of things that are overlooked because of his untimely end. He was elected in the midst of shady votes, Bay of Pigs, hosing around on his wife among others. He also dealt with a few things well, like the Russians and Cuba.


I don't think Kennedy was any better president than Clinton or either of the Bushs'.

He certainly handled Cuba/Russia better than Obama would.

Detoxing
07-07-2011, 03:38 PM
He might be right, what could have been will now likely be cut off at the knees due to the excess of information on the web and within technology.


I may be destined to be the greatest President in the history of the United States, but we'll likely never know because in a campaign, someone will link me to CP and in a debate, some female candidate with ask "In 2007 on a website known as Chiefsplanet, did you or did you not call some woman a floppy cooter'd-tater hog".

Feminazis will gasp, the New York Times will request via FOIA that kyle provide a history of my postings, poop threads are printed, and the world misses out on the best chance at a return to greatness in our century...


No Great Men will want that burden and won't run, leaving it to D-bags like the one holding down the iron throne now.

Don't forget the gays, the christians, the muslims, the blacks, the mexicans, the Illegals, Hollywood, the pro illegals, the anti illegals, the right wing, the left wing, the libs, the conservatives...the list is damn near infinite.

It's a fucking shit fest man.

orange
07-07-2011, 03:38 PM
LOL. What part of travel the World, and get back to me on American's and Politics didn't you understand?

Why "travelling the World" would change anyone's perspective.


Why would that change my perspective? Because other countries are worse? That doesn't make me feel any better about what's wrong with this country. And it only seems like it's getting worse.

yes, third world countries are worse. Thank you for that wonderful insight. That doesn't change my opinion and it shouldn't change anybody else's for that matter.

No one else seems to get it, either.

ChiTown
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Why "travelling the World" would change anyone's perspective.






No one else seems to get it, either.

Bump and Detox and Orange don't get it. Point was off base. My bad.

Donger
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Why "travelling the World" would change anyone's perspective.






No one else seems to get it, either.

I would imagine that visiting/living in a country that elections where the candidate gets 98% of the vote might make one long for our form of democracy, as nasty as it can be (and has been).

patteeu
07-07-2011, 03:56 PM
JFK was the last truly great American President...

Huh?

patteeu
07-07-2011, 04:00 PM
Reagan had the best rhetoric. Guys like Pat would label him extreme these days.

Nah, I like neocons like Reagan.

HonestChieffan
07-07-2011, 04:14 PM
Bump and Detox and Orange don't get it. Point was off base. My bad.


Simplify and dumb down a bit for them

Calcountry
07-07-2011, 04:17 PM
JFK? Why?Exactly. Because he was shot?

Calcountry
07-07-2011, 04:18 PM
I don't agree with you.


I think Great Presidents are a product of ability and the opportunity to be great.

FDR may as well be Grover Cleveland if not for the economic troubles and circumstances brought on by WWII.

I think times of extremes, economic crisis, war and circumstances give a president the opportunity, and I also think it's pretty damn hard to judge how good of a job a President has done for a number of years to assess the impact of their decisions.Roosevelt, was a disaster domestically, but in the area of war, he was great.

BigCatDaddy
07-07-2011, 04:24 PM
Its the Theory of Great American Presidents.

go bowe
07-07-2011, 04:24 PM
pfffft...

anybody who's been paying attention knows that the greatest president of all time was dick cheney... :harumph:

ROYC75
07-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Bump and Detox and Orange don't get it. Point was off base. My bad.

ROFL

Considering the sources, you are right, it was your bad. Never underestimate the power of orange.

ROYC75
07-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Crap, Tricky Nicky might have been if he wasn't a crook ! :D

One must ask, What are the requirements that makes a truly great president ?

orange
07-07-2011, 04:31 PM
Never underestimate the power of orange.

You would do well to remember that.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2317/788408-orangelantern_super.jpeg

orange
07-07-2011, 04:32 PM
Crap, Tricky Nicky might have been if he wasn't a crook ! :D

One must ask, What are the requirements that makes a truly great president ?

Probably not being a crook to start....

durtyrute
07-07-2011, 04:36 PM
There will never be a great president as long as the current system is in place. Not Romney, O shithead, Paul, Rand, or whoever else you want to throw in there. They are all controlled by the same people they all have the same agenda. You ever wonder why after all of these years of running the country the government still can't get it right?

ROYC75
07-07-2011, 04:36 PM
Probably not being a crook to start....

Haven't you noticed this yet? They all are, every one of them. It's organized crime at it's finest, including the current one. There isn't a one of them that has not been in it for their own interest and lining their pockets somehow.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 04:37 PM
True greatness requires the right conditions.

Right now, our current situation is ripe for a truly great leader to rise to the occasion.

Will it happen? Who knows. If it can happen anywhere, it would be here though. Time will have to tell.

HonestChieffan
07-07-2011, 04:38 PM
Nixon was outstanding on the foreign side, domestically less so but the fact he was a crook does not take away his accomplishments.

ROYC75
07-07-2011, 04:39 PM
You would do well to remember that.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2317/788408-orangelantern_super.jpeg


Was really needing some of this to clean the Liberal stupidity in this place and the country.http://www.universalws.com/images/058847950804.jpg

Jenson71
07-07-2011, 05:53 PM
Haven't you noticed this yet? They all are, every one of them. It's organized crime at it's finest, including the current one. There isn't a one of them that has not been in it for their own interest and lining their pockets somehow.

There are different advantages and benefits to being a President. That doesn't make them crooks or criminals, though.

mlyonsd
07-07-2011, 05:57 PM
At this moment in time Chris Christie has the possibilty. If only the fat a** would run.

Jenson71
07-07-2011, 06:00 PM
At this moment in time Chris Christie has the possibilty. If only the fat a** would run.

He's unelectable.

mlyonsd
07-07-2011, 06:04 PM
He's unelectable.I guess I don't understand why.

Jenson71
07-07-2011, 06:42 PM
I guess I don't understand why.

Because he yells at teachers. He just comes off as a red-blooded bully. It's great for the base, but I doubt the majority of Americans want some jerk leading the country.

ROYC75
07-07-2011, 06:59 PM
There are different advantages and benefits to being a President. That doesn't make them crooks or criminals, though.

Very few of them hasn't been crooked.

To be honest, please name a few.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 07:29 PM
JFK was the last truly great American President and Teddy Roosevelt.

We'll never know since JFK didn't govern long enough.

Teddy Roosevelt. I never understand why anyone thinks a warmongering Progressive was great. He was America's first NeoCon.( with Lincoln a forerunner)

We haven't seen another president since that Americans could say that was a truly great American. One that could band his country together and inspire.
Do you speak for all Americans? I would say Ronald Reagan fits the bill.

I'm thinking that there may never be another truly great President. I think we may as well elect a panel of certain CEO's from various industries as a board. Because that's who makes every single decision in this country and they pay a lot of money to have what they want done.

Well, I would say since you didn't name Reagan, your citing of corporations ( not that I think it's totally without merit) that you are likely a Progressive. NTTAWWT I just don't agree with it.
Have we seen the last great American President?

Heck! I wouldn't know. I think Ron Paul would fit that but few else.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 07:31 PM
Very few of them hasn't been crooked.

To be honest, please name a few.

I agree with you on this. Most presidents get a whitewashing in the history books.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 07:33 PM
True greatness requires the right conditions.

Right now, our current situation is ripe for a truly great leader to rise to the occasion.

Will it happen? Who knows. If it can happen anywhere, it would be here though. Time will have to tell.
I think we may be onto our own French Revolution if something doesn't change fast.

mlyonsd
07-07-2011, 07:35 PM
Because he yells at teachers. He just comes off as a red-blooded bully. It's great for the base, but I doubt the majority of Americans want some jerk leading the country.Oh, I thought maybe he was caught playing footsie in a bathroom stall.

petegz28
07-07-2011, 08:11 PM
There are different advantages and benefits to being a President. That doesn't make them crooks or criminals, though.

The Kennedy family aside of course.

petegz28
07-07-2011, 08:11 PM
Because he yells at teachers. He just comes off as a red-blooded bully. It's great for the base, but I doubt the majority of Americans want some jerk leading the country.

Because he yells at teachers?? Are you fucking kidding me?

Jaric
07-07-2011, 08:17 PM
I think we may be onto our own French Revolution if something doesn't change fast.

You know, I've never really paid much attention to the French Revolution.

I suppose I probably should as it was a fairly important historical event.

petegz28
07-07-2011, 08:18 PM
If memory serves correct, Ike got us into Vietnam but would not commit any troops troops to fight. I don't believe any troops died while Ike was in charge. I could be wrong. Kennedy actually escalated the "advisory" role we were allegedly playing and commited the first of our fighting troops. I don't think Ike had ever even committed more than 10000 "advisors". Kennedy sent in over 10,000 troops to actually fight and it went from there.

ClevelandBronco
07-07-2011, 08:21 PM
I'm hoping that there's an ironclad DNR order that will preclude great men from delaying the inevitable end of this failed experiment.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 08:23 PM
I'm hoping that there's an ironclad DNR order that will preclude great men from delaying the inevitable end of this failed experiment.

Are you suggesting there is a herd of great statesmen wandering our national parks?

:D

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 08:27 PM
You know, I've never really paid much attention to the French Revolution.

I suppose I probably should as it was a fairly important historical event.

Well, those in power lived in the lap of luxury while the people starved and it got quite bloody.
And why were they starving? The King, was quite in debt and inflated the currency quite badly to deal with it making food and living expensive for those not connected to power such as the little guy and merchants in order to pay for his military involvement in our own Revolution.

cardken
07-07-2011, 08:29 PM
and RFK probably would have been if he hadn't been killed

RFK would have to have won the Nomination which was still at peril at the time of his death. As for JFK, not a bigger fan of the President. That being said, what was done under his time was marginal outside a great "bluff" against the Russians and the Missile Crisis.
Great visionary and idealist, but his performance was marginal at best considering a shortened term, I think his legacy truly rested in a second term.

Jaric
07-07-2011, 08:33 PM
Well, those in power lived in the lap of luxury while the people starved and it got quite bloody.
And why were they starving? The King, was quite in debt and inflated the currency quite badly to deal with it making food and living expensive for those not connected to power such as the little guy and merchants in order to pay for his military involvement in our own Revolution.

Sounds familiar.

Does this mean in 200 years we're going to surrender without putting up a fight to the Germans?

That would be shitty.

mlyonsd
07-07-2011, 08:33 PM
Because he yells at teachers?? Are you ****ing kidding me?The preferred method is to send them into timeout in the principals office.

cardken
07-07-2011, 08:41 PM
Probably not being a crook to start....

LOL. Kennedy's elections, all three (Senate,Congress and Presidency) we're all paid for by his Prohibition Whiskey dealing father. I love the guy but keep it in prospective of at least read History.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 08:53 PM
Sounds familiar.

Does this mean in 200 years we're going to surrender without putting up a fight to the Germans?

That would be shitty.

No, since even the Revolutionary govt fought wars with several European states afterwards to secure it's govt as these were monarchies who looked askance at their revolution particularly when it got more radical and thought they needed to intervene. This is when the French national anthem was born too which is basically a fight song. They also used mass conscription to fight. Then they got Napolean who intervened all over Europe. Anyhow, that's the short version.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 08:55 PM
RFK would have to have won the Nomination which was still at peril at the time of his death. As for JFK, not a bigger fan of the President. That being said, what was done under his time was marginal outside a great "bluff" against the Russians and the Missile Crisis.
Great visionary and idealist, but his performance was marginal at best considering a shortened term, I think his legacy truly rested in a second term.

RFK being killed was the first blowback from the ME, unfortunately.

Amnorix
07-07-2011, 09:03 PM
Nixon was outstanding on the foreign side, domestically less so but the fact he was a crook does not take away his accomplishments.

I agree, he was, but he was also a slimeball to the core. It's not really just Watergate, it's the entire man.

Had anyone else, especially any Democrat, dared to go to China, he would've red-baited him out of office.

SNR
07-07-2011, 09:04 PM
Has the time for truly great American presidents ended?

Did it ever begin?

Chocolate Hog
07-07-2011, 09:06 PM
Nah, I like neocons like Reagan.

Reagan talked about things like The Federal Reserve, getting rid of the IRS and the Department of Education. You know things that make you call others fringe.

Amnorix
07-07-2011, 09:07 PM
You know, I've never really paid much attention to the French Revolution.

I suppose I probably should as it was a fairly important historical event.

It's really a long, continuous string of events over a number of years, with various figured rising to power, and then falling to the guillotine. It's a fascinating and complex story, or perhaps a series of short stories strung together. And a huge, bloody mess. Jefferson and Madison were morons to praise the French so as they descended into anarchy.

BucEyedPea
07-07-2011, 09:18 PM
Reagan talked about things like The Federal Reserve, getting rid of the IRS and the Department of Education. You know things that make you call others fringe.

Excellent! :thumb: ROFL

patteeu
07-07-2011, 09:41 PM
Reagan talked about things like The Federal Reserve, getting rid of the IRS and the Department of Education. You know things that make you call others fringe.

Those aren't things that make me call anyone fringe.

stevieray
07-07-2011, 10:02 PM
I'm hoping that there's an ironclad DNR order that will preclude great men from delaying the inevitable end of this failed experiment.

ouch! that'll leave a mark.

why?

orange
07-07-2011, 11:07 PM
LOL. Kennedy's elections, all three (Senate,Congress and Presidency) we're all paid for by his Prohibition Whiskey dealing father. I love the guy but keep it in prospective of at least read History.

That must be why Kennedy resigned in disgrace, like the guy I was referring to.

http://cdn4.benzinga.com/files/crook.jpg

p.s Your love for Kennedy is really quite evident. LMAO

SoCalBronco
07-07-2011, 11:23 PM
he truly inspired people in the 60's

So what? Who cares? What's important is actual, tangible achievements, not pretty sounding speeches.

Sorry..I'm not impressed with fluff. Kennedy's actual record is woefully inadequate.

SoCalBronco
07-07-2011, 11:45 PM
Nixon was outstanding on the foreign side, domestically less so but the fact he was a crook does not take away his accomplishments.

He was outstanding on the domestic side, too....although that doesn't get played up as often. There is a school of thought in academia that says his domestic achievements were even more impressive than his foreign ones. This started around 1995 with Joan Hoff's Nixon Reconsidered. She tried to make the case that Nixon was really the last liberal president of the 20th century in terms of his civil rights record (the talk was for the south, but the policies were different) with regard to blacks, women and other minorities (most notably Indians), and his environmental record, health care proposals, welfare reform, etc.. Hoff and Nixon are strange bedfellows, as most of her scholarship is in the field of feminism, but for some reason, she was the only historian Nixon regularly allowed interviews with after his retirement. This perspective was repeated in Melvin Small's The Presidency of Richard Nixon which came out in 2002. He went into very specific detail on a host of issues, civil rights, the environment, welfare reform, health care etc. Some argue his greatest achievement was not rapprochement with China or detente with the USSR, but rather the widespread desegregation of Southern schools. This is not played up much because at the time Nixon advised his staff to keep their work on the down low, so as not to antagonize certain elements of the political base (its why scholar Dean Kotlowski called him the "reluctant champion"), but if you go through the scholarship, you'll find that the administration did amazing things in this area almost overnight and most importantly peacefully. There is some discussion of it on Nixon's wikipedia page (I suspect if Nixon lived long enough to see his own Wikipedia page, he would be thrilled that history did in fact remember him kindly), but you can read Kotlowski's books and others as well if you want to know more.

I truly believe Richard Nixon was the last great American president, even with Watergate, the ITT scandal, the Plumbers, the Huston plan, the break in at the Brookings Institution etc. These were undoubtedly serious acts of corruption, but it is difficult to weigh corruption as a factor in an analysis when we don't have full access to his contemporaries skeleton filled closets to make a valid comparison. More importantly I think, his achievements absolutely trascend his sometimes vile nature. These were not incremental things, this was a truly transformative presidency. The foundations of the eventual Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty and also the overall peace process in the Middle East were laid in this administration. The opening to China, as well as SALT I and the ABM Treaty were really the beginning of the end of the Cold War. The endgame had been played right there, not with Reagan. SALT I had only lightly regulated offensive weapons by way of "soft caps" on a variety of weapons. What's important in that treaty is what was not in it: MIRV technology, where the US had a massive advantage, which made our 1068 ICBM's massively more powerful than the Soviet's 1600 and change. This gave them the incentive to keep building up as did the fear of a two front war with emerging power China to its East. If you read some of the internal documents from the time, you can see the Soviets were scared to death of a US-Sino alliance. At the same time, the ABM Treaty basically made it impossible for the US or the USSR to have a competent defensive weapons system, so that the theory of MAD ensured that no matter what happened, so long as the US simply kept up qualitative sufficiency (not superiority), we would eventually prevail due to the strength of our economy. This was the genius of Nixon. We had the Soviets beat from the early 70s. We didn't need to spend hundreds of billions in the 80s, it was a total waste.

I don't think there will be another presidency that impressive in a long time.

SNR
07-07-2011, 11:57 PM
Nixon In China is a pretty good opera. There's always that. I'd be surprised if somebody ever wrote an opera about Clinton, Bush or Obama. Thus far they've been pretty boring presidents, really.

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AoLk7VneYLY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JohnnyV13
07-08-2011, 01:09 AM
It's really a long, continuous string of events over a number of years, with various figured rising to power, and then falling to the guillotine. It's a fascinating and complex story, or perhaps a series of short stories strung together. And a huge, bloody mess. Jefferson and Madison were morons to praise the French so as they descended into anarchy.

Robespierre was my role model.

SNR
07-08-2011, 01:35 AM
You know, I've never really paid much attention to the French Revolution.

I suppose I probably should as it was a fairly important historical event.You should check out the book by Georges LeFebvre.

http://www.amazon.com/French-Revolution-Georges-Lefebvre/dp/0231085982

It's old, but when books are as well-written as this, you don't need updates. People just discovering the French Revolution and esteemed scholars both love this book and its counterpart "The Coming of the French Revolution" by the same author. I suggest reading this one first, though.

Amnorix
07-08-2011, 07:22 AM
He was outstanding on the domestic side, too....although that doesn't get played up as often.

[big snip].

I don't think there will be another presidency that impressive in a long time.

I agree that Nixon's Presidency was surprisingly liberal in many aspects, especially for a Republican, and that he was in many ways and areas an effective President.

He was also a disgusting human being who climbed to the top by actively destroying the careers of perfectly decent human beings by virtue of his efforts in the House Un-American Affairs Committee (HUAC). I say this in the context of realizing that he's a politician, and they're all kind of slimy and will do unexpected things in furtherance of their careers -- he was disgusting (in my eyes), even by those standards.

He also instituted, disastrously, the wage and price controls -- an act that would have most people on here hanging Obama in effigy if he even suggested such a thing.

Frankly, while I admit Nixon was an effective President in many ways, I think he may be the most revolting President we ever had. And efforts to reform his image and make him some kind of senior and respected statesman before he died were seriously misguided. He avoided jail, and rightly so, due to the pardon to try to get America to move on, but he did commit multiple crimes, lied repeatedly to the American people, and SERIOUSLY ABUSED the powers of the Presidency.

Amnorix
07-08-2011, 07:40 AM
Robespierre was my role model.

Not to be a complete dick, but role model for what? How to commit mass murder?

He was in many ways brilliant and fascinating, but when given the reins of power, he became a monster.

Direckshun
07-08-2011, 08:00 AM
I would argue that great American Presidents still can and do exist.

It's just how you measure "greatness."

Mount Rushmore and our elementary school textbooks have us schooled to believe that greatness is an objective thing; that there is a plane to reach and only a handful get there, meanwhile the rest are varying degrees of bad or good.

But greatness is subjective. To most people, Lincoln was great. But not all.

To some people, JFK was, for his own reasons. Reagan was to others, for his reasons. I'd argue that FDR was the greatest president we've ever had (I'd tie him with Lincoln), but there are some people around here (BEP for instance) who believe he was among the worst.

The fact that BEP is insane shouldn't detract from the idea that we have about 300 million people in this country that encourages and appreciates dissent and disagreement, so you're going to have 300 million different lists about who was great and why.

Great Presidents, in my opinion, in the past century? Just one, FDR. I'd argue that a few others achieved remarkable things, but FDR's track record stacks up favorably with every single President we've ever had, except perhaps Lincoln.

King_Chief_Fan
07-08-2011, 08:00 AM
Ronald Reagan-
First thing he did was got the American hostages released in Iran. Carter left office with hostages in Iran, an inflation rate of 12%, unemployment 11%, and Prime interest of 21% Reaganomics, including tax cuts, tax reform, reduction in welfare, reduced all three, inflation, unemployment, and interest, which all dropped all during his Presidency. Hi lead America through Black Monday, the greatest single day loss and crash of the stock market.

He deregulated the airline industry, including breaking the air traffic controllers union, deregulated transportation. 15 million new jobs were created during his Presidency. He rebuilt the military, and had a foreign policy of peace through force. He is credited with bringing down the Soviet Union, through intimidation, forcing them to over spend on their military.

After 16 years of war, scandals, incompetency, and disastrous Presidencies of LBJ, Nixon, Ford, and Carter, President Reagan restored America's faith in government, relieved fears, and made America strong and proud again. He also reclaimed America's place as world leader.

Probably his greatest asset was his ability to bypass the media, go over Congresses head, and directly speak and connect with the American people. He was decent communicator.

BucEyedPea
07-08-2011, 11:00 AM
The fact that BEP is insane shouldn't detract from the idea that we have about 300 million people in this country that encourages and appreciates dissent and disagreement, so you're going to have 300 million different lists about who was great and why.

Ah yes, the insanity charge as communists and socialists, like yourself, are inclined to do when freedom lovers expose the truth of some leaders especially FDR who prolonged a Great Depression and as is Obama who is following FDR. Project much? Neg rep follow you commie.

Great Presidents, in my opinion, in the past century? Just one, FDR. I'd argue that a few others achieved remarkable things, but FDR's track record stacks up favorably with every single President we've ever had, except perhaps Lincoln.
FDR is considered the worst by all true freedom-loving Americans, who you think are insane.

Just read TRs own words when he worked under McKinley about war with Spain and how his bios show he glorified it. There's plenty of same folks out there who know this about him. In fact, one newspaper editorialized how he could be considered the first NeoCon.

BucEyedPea
07-08-2011, 11:05 AM
He was outstanding on the domestic side, too....although that doesn't get played up as often.

O. M. G. Nixon was one of our most socialist presidents.

BucEyedPea
07-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Robespierre was my role model.

:hmmm::doh!:

cardken
07-09-2011, 08:15 AM
Ronald Reagan-
First thing he did was got the American hostages released in Iran. Carter left office with hostages in Iran, an inflation rate of 12%, unemployment 11%, and Prime interest of 21% Reaganomics, including tax cuts, tax reform, reduction in welfare, reduced all three, inflation, unemployment, and interest, which all dropped all during his Presidency. Hi lead America through Black Monday, the greatest single day loss and crash of the stock market.

He deregulated the airline industry, including breaking the air traffic controllers union, deregulated transportation. 15 million new jobs were created during his Presidency. He rebuilt the military, and had a foreign policy of peace through force. He is credited with bringing down the Soviet Union, through intimidation, forcing them to over spend on their military.

After 16 years of war, scandals, incompetency, and disastrous Presidencies of LBJ, Nixon, Ford, and Carter, President Reagan restored America's faith in government, relieved fears, and made America strong and proud again. He also reclaimed America's place as world leader.

Probably his greatest asset was his ability to bypass the media, go over Congresses head, and directly speak and connect with the American people. He was decent communicator.

Here are a few Reaganisms to refresh your political memory:

1. During his inauguration speech Reagan stated "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem." He spent the next eight years proving himself right.

2. Reaganonmics: the reverse engineering of "trickle up" economics.

3. Iran Contra Affair.... remember that terribly illegal, human rights snafu?

4. U.S. faced largest budget deficit under his tenor.

5. Busting that little Air Traffic Controller strike union buster lead to an influx of under- qualified controllers in the industry.

6. "Future lies before us." It sure does, Mr. President. Channeling Bush II.

7. He fell asleep during meetings - perhaps most notably during a state dinner at the Kremlin. During President Gorbachev's toast.

8. Harboring junk bond kings, the Reagan administration under Bush I lent a hand stoking the Savings and Loans Crisis.

9. Bolstering Bush I's political career and thus setting American up for Bush II.

10. The "Hostages" were released on Reagans' Inauguration Day, very seriously doubt he had much to do with the Negotiations, not even a day in Office, it was a snub to Carter from the Iranians, due to the sanctions leveled against them and the failed rescue attempt.

Let's keep the "Almighty" one in prospective. But as mentioned earlier, with the limited control a President truly has, he is really at the mercy of "Right Place Right Time", when credited for things. However it is also true the other half of the equation is which decisions "he" makes to resolve those situations contributes.

patteeu
07-09-2011, 09:00 AM
Here are a few Reaganisms to refresh your political memory:

1. During his inauguration speech Reagan stated "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem." He spent the next eight years proving himself right.

2. Reaganonmics: the reverse engineering of "trickle up" economics.

3. Iran Contra Affair.... remember that terribly illegal, human rights snafu?

4. U.S. faced largest budget deficit under his tenor.

5. Busting that little Air Traffic Controller strike union buster lead to an influx of under- qualified controllers in the industry.

6. "Future lies before us." It sure does, Mr. President. Channeling Bush II.

7. He fell asleep during meetings - perhaps most notably during a state dinner at the Kremlin. During President Gorbachev's toast.

8. Harboring junk bond kings, the Reagan administration under Bush I lent a hand stoking the Savings and Loans Crisis.

9. Bolstering Bush I's political career and thus setting American up for Bush II.

10. The "Hostages" were released on Reagans' Inauguration Day, very seriously doubt he had much to do with the Negotiations, not even a day in Office, it was a snub to Carter from the Iranians, due to the sanctions leveled against them and the failed rescue attempt.

Let's keep the "Almighty" one in prospective. But as mentioned earlier, with the limited control a President truly has, he is really at the mercy of "Right Place Right Time", when credited for things. However it is also true the other half of the equation is which decisions "he" makes to resolve those situations contributes.

Pretty lame. I hope that's a cut and paste job that you didn't bother to review before posting.

cardken
07-09-2011, 07:26 PM
Pretty lame. I hope that's a cut and paste job that you didn't bother to review before posting.

you're lame, written and yes pasted under the influance of Ambian, FTR D#@K.

blaise
07-09-2011, 07:58 PM
"I've already pencilled Obama in for Mt. Rushmore. He's a Top 5 Pres for sure."

- Direckshun

The Mad Crapper
07-09-2011, 08:39 PM
He was also a disgusting human being who climbed to the top by actively destroying the careers of perfectly decent human beings by virtue of his efforts in the House Un-American Affairs Committee (HUAC). I say this in the context of realizing that he's a politician, and they're all kind of slimy and will do unexpected things in furtherance of their careers -- he was disgusting (in my eyes), even by those standards.

Samuel Dickstein (D-NY) was a KGB agent (code name:crook). When he chaired an immigration committee, he sold Soviet agents visas. Oh, and by the way, tax revenues are at historical highs.

:drool:

patteeu
07-09-2011, 08:42 PM
you're lame, written and yes pasted under the influance of Ambian, FTR D#@K.

Excuses, excuses.