PDA

View Full Version : U.S. Issues Spending Cuts vs. Tax Hikes


petegz28
07-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Flat Tax or Fair Tax, eliminate corporate taxes and then be fucking done with it.

We will eliminate tons of spending by just calling a flat 20% tax.
There will be the "shared sacrifice" that the Left so touts because everyone will be paying, including those who do not already.


This seems to be a pretty fair deal to me. The guy making $20k is upping $4k. The guy making over the $250k mark is losing all of his tax breaks.

Shared sacrifice. Tremendous cuts in spedning.

My problem with the Left is whenever I hear "shared sacrifice" they seem to only want a certain group of people to share said sacrifice.

Amnorix
07-11-2011, 09:45 PM
Fair Tax -- a misnomer if ever there was one.

BigChiefFan
07-11-2011, 10:02 PM
One problem, the majority of the "American" companies don't even pay the taxes now and they got bail-out money to boot. The Republic is all but done.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 06:44 AM
Fair Tax -- a misnomer if ever there was one.

why is that? Why should one be forced to pay a higher percentage than someone else? How is that fair?

Bewbies
07-12-2011, 08:22 AM
why is that? Why should one be forced to pay a higher percentage than someone else? How is that fair?

Because Fair is 50% not paying anything. The progressive tax system is the most fair system ever designed.

eazyb81
07-12-2011, 08:37 AM
Because Fair is 50% not paying anything. The progressive tax system is the most fair system ever designed.

LMAO, it is "fair" for 50% of people to freely use public resources and not have to be a dime for them? Funny world you live in.

Direckshun
07-12-2011, 09:10 AM
A flat tax, eh.

Let it be known that Pete is now officially running on drastically lowering taxes for the top 5% while raising taxes on every other taxpayer in the country.

mlyonsd
07-12-2011, 09:16 AM
A flat tax, eh.

Let it be known that Pete is now officially running on drastically lowering taxes for the top 5% while raising taxes on every other taxpayer in the country.

So am I.

Direckshun
07-12-2011, 09:16 AM
So am I.

Rock out with your cock out.

headsnap
07-12-2011, 09:18 AM
Rock out with your cock out.

Jam out with your clam out.

Direckshun
07-12-2011, 09:21 AM
Jam out with your clam out.

I've run out of snappy colloquialisms.

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Flat Tax or Fair Tax, eliminate corporate taxes and then be ****ing done with it.

We will eliminate tons of spending by just calling a flat 20% tax.
There will be the "shared sacrifice" that the Left so touts because everyone will be paying, including those who do not already.

This seems to be a pretty fair deal to me. The guy making $20k is upping $4k. The guy making over the $250k mark is losing all of his tax breaks.

Shared sacrifice. Tremendous cuts in spedning.

My problem with the Left is whenever I hear "shared sacrifice" they seem to only want a certain group of people to share said sacrifice.

Wheeeee, Pete's flat tax thread number 1,034.

I'll type slowly. Most of the spending cuts will fall disproportionately on the middle class (e.g., higher out-of-pocket Medicare contributions). The proposal is to balance that with reforming the tax code (e.g., placing caps on mortgage interest deduction) for the top 5% (or whatever). Moreover, it's like 4-1 spending cuts to tax increases. It's what the R's were targeting at the beginning of the debt ceiling negotiations.

Comparing the sacrifices of 1 poor guy to 1 rich guy is a strawman. There's more like 15:1 middle class to rich, and you have to consider their sacrifices in aggregate. Well, not you, exactly, since this appears to be a difficult concept to grasp.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 09:48 AM
Wheeeee, Pete's flat tax thread number 1,034.

I'll type slowly. Most of the spending cuts will fall disproportionately on the middle class (e.g., higher out-of-pocket Medicare contributions). The proposal is to balance that with reforming the tax code (e.g., placing caps on mortgage interest deduction) for the top 5% (or whatever). Moreover, it's like 4-1 spending cuts to tax increases. It's what the R's were targeting at the beginning of the debt ceiling negotiations.

Comparing the sacrifices of 1 poor guy to 1 rich guy is a strawman. There's more like 15:1 middle class to rich, and you have to consider their sacrifices in aggregate. Well, not you, exactly, since this appears to be a difficult concept for you to grasp.

so much for all men are created equal....maybe we should change the Constitution to say all men are to be judged and treated according to the size of their wallet?

ChiefsCountry
07-12-2011, 09:50 AM
So am I.

Ditto.

Amnorix
07-12-2011, 09:53 AM
so much for all men are created equal....maybe we should change the Constitution to say all men are to be judged and treated according to the size of their wallet?

FFS, that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, and he's not talking about tax policy there...

patteeu
07-12-2011, 09:57 AM
Fair Tax -- a misnomer if ever there was one.

I agree. The prebate is an abomination, but it's a political pander to the bleeding hearts and it's certainly not enough to make the FAIR tax worse than our current system.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 09:59 AM
A flat tax, eh.

Let it be known that Pete is now officially running on drastically lowering taxes for the top 5% while raising taxes on every other taxpayer in the country.

Isn't it about time for all Americans to grab an oar and start rowing?

VAChief
07-12-2011, 10:02 AM
Does this flat tax you propose include the current payroll taxes that ALL workers currently pay? Those that cry about the 47% now rounded off to 50 it seems in here always forget to mention that everyone pays for medicare and social security now.

KC Dan
07-12-2011, 10:03 AM
Isn't it about time for all Americans to grab an oar and start rowing?Better yet, have the gov't send a bill to each and every american for his/her share of the debt. See how that goes

jiveturkey
07-12-2011, 10:04 AM
I agree that everyone should pay something. Half of the country not paying anything is silly IMO.

But I don't believe that a flat tax is the right answer either.

A majority of our consumer spending is done by those by the middle class and lower class. This is what drives our economy.

An unintended side effect of a flat tax might mean more people on government assistance. If Mr. $20k/year is now being taxed at 20% and is only making $16k he might be more likely to just give up and take the easy way out.

Everyone needs to feel some pain as we right the ship but let's not sink the whole thing.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 10:05 AM
Does this flat tax you propose include the current payroll taxes that ALL workers currently pay? Those that cry about the 47% now rounded off to 50 it seems in here always forget to mention that everyone pays for medicare and social security now.

I believe the FAIR Tax replaces payroll taxes as well as the income tax.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 10:05 AM
Does this flat tax you propose include the current payroll taxes that ALL workers currently pay? Those that cry about the 47% now rounded off to 50 it seems in here always forget to mention that everyone pays for medicare and social security now.

Boo-hoo. Everyone pays for their benefits? WHA! I have yet to go into a resteraunt where the table next to me gets their meal "for free" and I get charged double the price on the menu.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 10:09 AM
Isn't it about time for all Americans to grab an oar and start rowing?

I don't disagree, however I don't think it is being unrealistic to look at what it costs a person for supporting their basic needs, and start taxing them once they reach that point. I am all for simplifying the tax code at point well past that minimum standard. Everyone should pay into SS (if we are going to keep it) and Medicare. If the average worker pays into a medicare and social security for 40 years, it really should be self-sufficient (even given a certain amount of deadbeats).

VAChief
07-12-2011, 10:10 AM
Boo-hoo. Everyone pays for their benefits? WHA! I have yet to go into a resteraunt where the table next to me gets their meal "for free" and I get charged double the price on the menu.

You didn't answer the question, but here's a hanky for your tears.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 10:10 AM
I agree that everyone should pay something. Half of the country not paying anything is silly IMO.

But I don't believe that a flat tax is the right answer either.

A majority of our consumer spending is done by those by the middle class and lower class. This is what drives our economy.

An unintended side effect of a flat tax might mean more people on government assistance. If Mr. $20k/year is now being taxed at 20% and is only making $16k he might be more likely to just give up and take the easy way out.

Everyone needs to feel some pain as we right the ship but let's not sink the whole thing.

We need to stop relying on domestic consumption to drive our economy and start becoming a producer for the world market. As long as we continue to live the old paradigm we'll see globalism tear our jobs away and corrode our overall economy. We've been the proverbial frog in gradually warming water. Protectionism and reinforcing our consumer orientation will lead us to ruin. We need to begin the transition now and a flat, business-friendly tax code is a great place to start.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 10:12 AM
I believe the FAIR Tax replaces payroll taxes as well as the income tax.

Then it would be something like a 5% to 12.5 % tax above what people pay for SS and Medicare now depending on whether they are self employed? That would surprise me if it would be enough, but I don't think it is wholly unreasonable. Again giving some allowances for basic living accommodations.

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 10:12 AM
I agree that everyone should pay something. Half of the country not paying anything is silly IMO.

But I don't believe that a flat tax is the right answer either.

A majority of our consumer spending is done by those by the middle class and lower class. This is what drives our economy.

An unintended side effect of a flat tax might mean more people on government assistance. If Mr. $20k/year is now being taxed at 20% and is only making $16k he might be more likely to just give up and take the easy way out.

Everyone needs to feel some pain as we right the ship but let's not sink the whole thing.

Everyone who works pays FICA, which funds the fixed portion of the budget (Medicare, SS). That represents 60% (roughly) of total spending. So it's pure BS to say they're not paying anything.

They're just not paying on the discretionary part.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 10:21 AM
Everyone who works pays FICA, which funds the fixed portion of the budget (Medicare, SS). That represents 60% (roughly) of total spending. So it's pure BS to say they're not paying anything.

They're just not paying on the discretionary part.

I wouldn't find it too surprising to find that at least some of the people who raise this complaint are actually in that group they are complaining about. They know THEY have taxes taken out, must not be them.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 10:24 AM
Everyone who works pays FICA, which funds the fixed portion of the budget (Medicare, SS). That represents 60% (roughly) of total spending. So it's pure BS to say they're not paying anything.

They're just not paying on the discretionary part.

It's pure BS that they don't pay their fair share on all government spending.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 10:49 AM
Everyone who works pays FICA, which funds the fixed portion of the budget (Medicare, SS). That represents 60% (roughly) of total spending. So it's pure BS to say they're not paying anything.

They're just not paying on the discretionary part.

Yeah, for things they use like, roads, defense, etc. etc. They get a free ride.

FD
07-12-2011, 11:10 AM
It's pure BS that they don't pay their fair share on all government spending.

Actually when you include all types of taxation, people pay taxes almost exactly in proportion to their income share. Our system is slightly on the side of being progressive, but only slightly:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_VgJQTp0Bsf0/TbG1L-PYTdI/AAAAAAAAAeM/cAtrN2W0K98/ctjshare.jpg

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

VAChief
07-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Yeah, for things they use like, roads, defense, etc. etc. They get a free ride.

If they are gainfully working I wouldn't call it a free ride. We need school bus drivers, waitresses, janitors, and a host of other low paying service jobs that make up that working 47% that "only" pay payroll taxes.

Does a private in the military make enough to pay taxes? Those deadbeats!

petegz28
07-12-2011, 11:30 AM
If they are gainfully working I wouldn't call it a free ride. We need school bus drivers, waitresses, janitors, and a host of other low paying service jobs that make up that working 47% that "only" pay payroll taxes.

Does a private in the military make enough to pay taxes? Those deadbeats!

The Private in the military is risking his life....slight difference.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 11:31 AM
Actually when you include all types of taxation, people pay taxes almost exactly in proportion to their income share. Our system is slightly on the side of being progressive, but only slightly:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_VgJQTp0Bsf0/TbG1L-PYTdI/AAAAAAAAAeM/cAtrN2W0K98/ctjshare.jpg

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

You sure don't read graphs the way I do. That graph shows considerable progressivity for the lower 80% of taxpayers and only flattens out (or perhaps drops a bit) for that upper group. The graph is designed to exaggerate the flatness and understate the real progressivity.

And I'd love to see what this graph looks like when the taxes for supposedly non-welfare entitlements (SS and Medicare) are stripped out. Progressivity would surely be even more dramatic.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 11:37 AM
If they are gainfully working I wouldn't call it a free ride. We need school bus drivers, waitresses, janitors, and a host of other low paying service jobs that make up that working 47% that "only" pay payroll taxes.

Does a private in the military make enough to pay taxes? Those deadbeats!

The answer to your question is yes.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 12:00 PM
The Private in the military is risking his life....slight difference.

All low paying military personnel are risking their lives? I just take issue with "free ride." Lower, working class people that build those roads, clean our public toilets, etc. I doubt consider themselves getting a "free ride." There are certainly those that game the system just like their are billionaires gaming the system on the other end.

BucEyedPea
07-12-2011, 12:02 PM
First Spending Cut -----> Defund Obamacare

Amnorix
07-12-2011, 12:03 PM
And I'd love to see what this graph looks like when the taxes for supposedly non-welfare entitlements (SS and Medicare) are stripped out. Progressivity would surely be even more dramatic.


???? It's an ALL TAX graph. Why the hell would you strip out any type of tax? Because you want to show progressivity? Why not strip out income taxes to show that it's regressive? Bit silly to selectively exclude some taxes from an ALL tax graph...

patteeu
07-12-2011, 12:12 PM
All low paying military personnel are risking their lives? I just take issue with "free ride." Lower, working class people that build those roads, clean our public toilets, etc. I doubt consider themselves getting a "free ride." There are certainly those that game the system just like their are billionaires gaming the system on the other end.

The "free ride" is with respect to government services, not life in general.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 12:16 PM
Another perspective on who is getting a "free ride."

Paul Buchheit, from DePaul University, revealed, "From 1980 to 2006 the richest 1% of America tripled their after-tax percentage of our nation's total income, while the bottom 90% have seen their share drop over 20%." Robert Freeman added, "Between 2002 and 2006, it was even worse: an astounding three-quarters of all the economy's growth was captured by the top 1%."

Due to this, the United States already had the highest inequality of wealth in the industrialized world prior to the financial crisis. Since the crisis, which has hit the average worker much harder than CEOs, the gap between the top one percent and the remaining 99% of the US population has grown to a record high. The economic top one percent of the population now owns over 70% of all financial assets, an all time record.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 12:17 PM
???? It's an ALL TAX graph. Why the hell would you strip out any type of tax? Because you want to show progressivity? Why not strip out income taxes to show that it's regressive? Bit silly to selectively exclude some taxes from an ALL tax graph...

You don't need to strip anything out to show progressivity. These graphs already show it, despite what Forward Dante says.

I'd like to see the stripped out version to see how it looks when we look at financing for all government services besides Medicare and SS. There's still a lot of government to fund beyond those two programs, you know. 47% getting a free ride is a true "huge slice".

dirk digler
07-12-2011, 12:18 PM
If they are gainfully working I wouldn't call it a free ride. We need school bus drivers, waitresses, janitors, and a host of other low paying service jobs that make up that working 47% that "only" pay payroll taxes.

Does a private in the military make enough to pay taxes? Those deadbeats!

A private in the Army makes $17,600 before taxes. If they have a family and the wife doesn't work they would qualify for some type of assistance like Medicaid and food stamps. I know the military in recent years has seen an increase in members using food stamps.

FD
07-12-2011, 12:18 PM
You don't need to strip anything out to show progressivity. These graphs already show it, despite what Forward Dante says.

I'd like to see the stripped out version to see how it looks when we look at financing for all government services besides Medicare and SS. There's still a lot of government to fund beyond those two programs, you know. 47% getting a free ride is a true "huge slice".

I said its progressive. But its only barely progressive. And 47% are not getting a "free ride", they are paying the same taxes roughly in proportion to their income as everyone else is.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
I said its progressive. But its only barely progressive. And 47% are not getting a "free ride", they are paying the same taxes roughly in proportion to their income as everyone else is.

It's far more than barely progressive, from where I sit. If we strip away the sleight of hand and just look at effective total tax rate by quintile we come up with the following according to the CBO (http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2009/effective_rates.pdf) (.pdf):

Lowest Quintile: 4.3%

Second Quintile: 10.2%

Middle Quintile: 14.2%

Fourth Quintile: 17.6%

Highest Quintile: 25.8%

47% are getting a bigtime free ride for the vast majority of government services. And they're getting a discounted ride for government services in total.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 12:37 PM
All low paying military personnel are risking their lives? I just take issue with "free ride." Lower, working class people that build those roads, clean our public toilets, etc. I doubt consider themselves getting a "free ride." There are certainly those that game the system just like their are billionaires gaming the system on the other end.

Anyone who signs up for the military is risking their life for ours. That is one time I don't have a problem giving someone a free ride.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 12:39 PM
Another perspective on who is getting a "free ride."

Paul Buchheit, from DePaul University, revealed, "From 1980 to 2006 the richest 1% of America tripled their after-tax percentage of our nation's total income, while the bottom 90% have seen their share drop over 20%." Robert Freeman added, "Between 2002 and 2006, it was even worse: an astounding three-quarters of all the economy's growth was captured by the top 1%."

Due to this, the United States already had the highest inequality of wealth in the industrialized world prior to the financial crisis. Since the crisis, which has hit the average worker much harder than CEOs, the gap between the top one percent and the remaining 99% of the US population has grown to a record high. The economic top one percent of the population now owns over 70% of all financial assets, an all time record.

What is your point? That life isn't fair? That those with money make more money?

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 12:42 PM
What is your point? That life isn't fair? That those with money make more money?

So, in your opinion, banana republic-levels of wealth disparity are sustainable?

Good luck with that.

FD
07-12-2011, 12:42 PM
It's far more than barely progressive, from where I sit. If we strip away the sleight of hand and just look at effective total tax rate by quintile we come up with the following according to the CBO (http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2009/effective_rates.pdf) (.pdf):

Lowest Quintile: 4.3%

Second Quintile: 10.2%

Middle Quintile: 14.2%

Fourth Quintile: 17.6%

Highest Quintile: 25.8%

47% are getting a bigtime free ride for the vast majority of government services. And they're getting a discounted ride for government services in total.

Including state and local taxes, sales taxes and property taxes is not "sleight of hand."

patteeu
07-12-2011, 12:50 PM
Including state and local taxes, sales taxes and property taxes is not "sleight of hand."

It doesn't have much to do with funding the federal government either.

FD
07-12-2011, 12:53 PM
It doesn't have much to do with funding the federal government either.

And that doesn't have much to do with whether or not they are receiving a "free ride." Taxes are taxes. Everyone pays their share. That was my point.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 12:59 PM
So, in your opinion, banana republic-levels of wealth disparity are sustainable?

Good luck with that.

What's keeping you or anyone else from being rich?

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:00 PM
And that doesn't have much to do with whether or not they are receiving a "free ride." Taxes are taxes. Everyone pays their share. That was my point.

Taxes are not taxes. That is such an over-simplification.

KC Dan
07-12-2011, 01:01 PM
What's keeping you or anyone else from being rich?hard work

VAChief
07-12-2011, 01:06 PM
What is your point? That life isn't fair? That those with money make more money?

It is hard to look at those numbers and say that a whopping 90% of hard working Americans are seeing their incomes shrinking in the same economy as those whose wealth is climbing at exponential rates and think that those cleaning toilets are getting a "free ride" while those at the top are somehow getting jobbed.

I thought the whole premise of the cut taxes, Reagan voodoo economic philosophy was that by letting the "job creators" have more they will create more for the working class and less people would need assistance. It looks like the exact opposite effect has occurred. Now, granted this is correlative look at the situation, but this isn't a one, or two or five year trend...but over 30 years now.

Our household income is around $130,000. I pay a healthy amount of taxes, but I can look at the janitor, school bus driver, or soldier in my community and realize that they work very hard for their money too without designating them as free loaders.

dirk digler
07-12-2011, 01:07 PM
hard work

It is a little bit more than that. I would throw in luck, married rich, or had a rich relative. :)

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:14 PM
It is a little bit more than that. I would throw in luck, married rich, or had a rich relative. :)

I would say there is nothing in this country preventing anyone from working hard and becoming rich. Some will have to work harder than others. Most choose not to work that hard or take the risks.

I believe it was Rockefeller (could be wrong) who had a total of 4 years of school and was working for .02 an hr and ended up being one of the richest men in history.

Hard work is usually not the issue though. It's taking the risks. Most people don't want to risk starting their own business. They choose the security of getting paid a wage to make someone else rich over taking the risk for themselves.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 01:14 PM
It is a little bit more than that. I would throw in luck, married rich, or had a rich relative. :)

This doesn't need to be a Paris Hilton versus Welfare Queen discussion. :)

VAChief
07-12-2011, 01:18 PM
I would say there is nothing in this country preventing anyone from working hard and becoming rich. Some will have to work harder than others. Most choose not to work that hard or take the risks.

I believe it was Rockefeller (could be wrong) who had a total of 4 years of school and was working for .02 an hr and ended up being one of the richest men in history.

Hard work is usually not the issue though. It's taking the risks. Most people don't want to risk starting their own business. They choose the security of getting paid a wage to make someone else rich over taking the risk for themselves.

In theory I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also believe that working hard shouldn't make you poor and lose money income year after year either.

HonestChieffan
07-12-2011, 01:18 PM
It is a little bit more than that. I would throw in luck, married rich, or had a rich relative. :)


All of those go hand in hand with hard work......you wont have luck sitting on your ass waiting for the luck fairy to land in yard. Marrying the right person, rich or not takes some effort, and if you have a rich relative you wont be getting anything till they die and if you are a lazy do nothing, you likely wont get a dime and they will give the money to someplace like KU.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:18 PM
The reason I see most people not even making it close to "comfortable" let alone "rich" is the decisions they make outside of just working hard. Things like not managing their credit, not saving money wisely, buying toys and amassing loads of debt.

People scream about "the rich man" as they cash their check and run to the Best Buy to get the latest flat screen or X-box game.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:21 PM
In theory I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also believe that working hard shouldn't make you poor and lose money income year after year either.

Why does it make you poor? Would it happen to be the decisions you make with your money that makes you poor? Do you work hard but live check-to-check because you bought a house you really couldn't afford? Or a car? Or a TV? Spend money at McDonald's when you should be brown-bagging it?

Forget being rich for the moment. Let's just talk about being financially ok and semi-secure. That comes from discipline and using some common sense. Making the money is usually not the problem for people. It's what they do with it once they've earned it.

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 01:21 PM
I would say there is nothing in this country preventing anyone from working hard and becoming rich. Some will have to work harder than others. Most choose not to work that hard or take the risks.

I believe it was Rockefeller (could be wrong) who had a total of 4 years of school and was working for .02 an hr and ended up being one of the richest men in history.

Hard work is usually not the issue though. It's taking the risks. Most people don't want to risk starting their own business. They choose the security of getting paid a wage to make someone else rich over taking the risk for themselves.

And then you get to suppress employee wages so your stock will go up a quarter of a point.

AMERICA!

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:23 PM
And then you get to suppress employee wages so your stock will go up a quarter of a point.

AMERICA!

That's business. I don't like it but that's how it works. Buy some stock in your company then if you are worried about that.

Or, like I said, start your own business and quit depending on someone else. The choices are there.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 01:24 PM
The reason I see most people not even making it close to "comfortable" let alone "rich" is the decisions they make outside of just working hard. Things like not managing their credit, not saving money wisely, buying toys and amassing loads of debt.

People scream about "the rich man" as they cash their check and run to the Best Buy to get the latest flat screen or X-box game.

Well of course it is easy to look at those type of cases. Painting in generalizations is never a wise idea, and the media on both sides do a great job of highlighting the extremes. The data doesn't lie. The middle class has been shrinking for years. Trickle up is working great so far.

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 01:25 PM
That's business. I don't like it but that's how it works. Buy some stock in your company then if you are worried about that.

Or, like I said, start your own business and quit depening on someone else. The choices are there.

Think CEOs might be less inclined to squeeze their workers if the cap gains rate or the top marginal income bracket was at more historical levels?

dirk digler
07-12-2011, 01:27 PM
Hard work is usually not the issue though. It's taking the risks. Most people don't want to risk starting their own business. They choose the security of getting paid a wage to make someone else rich over taking the risk for themselves.

I agree with this. I work my ass off and I would love to start my own business but am scared shitless.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:29 PM
Think CEOs might be less inclined to squeeze their workers if the cap gains rate or the top marginal income bracket was at more historical levels?

No. Ethics and business rarely walk together. I do favor a raise in the CG tax but not for the reason you present.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:30 PM
I agree with this. I work my ass off and I would love to start my own business but am scared shitless.

Same here. I will admit it. It's easier to depend on my checks as long as my company is paying me.

Cave Johnson
07-12-2011, 01:31 PM
No. Ethics and business rarely walk together. I do favor a raise in the CG tax but not for the reason you present.

Who's discussing ethics? I'm merely describing people acting in their own rational self interest when faced with a series of incentives or disincentives.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 01:39 PM
And that doesn't have much to do with whether or not they are receiving a "free ride." Taxes are taxes. Everyone pays their share. That was my point.

It has everything to do with whether they're getting a free ride. We're talking about paying for the federal government here. State taxes aren't federal taxes.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 01:39 PM
What's keeping you or anyone else from being rich?

Pittsie was born with a silver spoon, not a gold one.

petegz28
07-12-2011, 01:42 PM
Who's discussing ethics? I'm merely describing people acting in their own rational self interest when faced with a series of incentives or disincentives.

So WTF then do CG taxes have to do with what you are saying?

patteeu
07-12-2011, 01:44 PM
It is hard to look at those numbers and say that a whopping 90% of hard working Americans are seeing their incomes shrinking in the same economy as those whose wealth is climbing at exponential rates and think that those cleaning toilets are getting a "free ride" while those at the top are somehow getting jobbed.

I thought the whole premise of the cut taxes, Reagan voodoo economic philosophy was that by letting the "job creators" have more they will create more for the working class and less people would need assistance. It looks like the exact opposite effect has occurred. Now, granted this is correlative look at the situation, but this isn't a one, or two or five year trend...but over 30 years now.

Our household income is around $130,000. I pay a healthy amount of taxes, but I can look at the janitor, school bus driver, or soldier in my community and realize that they work very hard for their money too without designating them as free loaders.

No one is saying that janitors and soldiers don't work hard. People who don't pay income taxes are getting a free ride when it comes to most federal government services (defense, FBI, FDA, EPA, national parks, homeland security, etc.) no matter how hard they work.

VAChief
07-12-2011, 03:05 PM
No one is saying that janitors and soldiers don't work hard. People who don't pay income taxes are getting a free ride when it comes to most federal government services (defense, FBI, FDA, EPA, national parks, homeland security, etc.) no matter how hard they work.

I understand, "free" meaning they only pay payroll taxes and consumption taxes. I view the fact that they are gainfully employed as a benefit to our communities. We will just have to agree to disagree.

All this started because of a "flat tax" inquiry. With most of the income coming from the top 1% would a 20 percent flat tax (which sounds more like 5%-15% after you factor in SS and Medicare) really make a difference?

eazyb81
07-12-2011, 03:13 PM
And then you get to suppress employee wages so your stock will go up a quarter of a point.

AMERICA!

If those employees are valuable they will leave and earn an appropriate wage at another firm. That is how the free market system works.

patteeu
07-12-2011, 03:15 PM
I understand, "free" meaning they only pay payroll taxes and consumption taxes. I view the fact that they are gainfully employed as a benefit to our communities. We will just have to agree to disagree.

All this started because of a "flat tax" inquiry. With most of the income coming from the top 1% would a 20 percent flat tax (which sounds more like 5%-15% after you factor in SS and Medicare) really make a difference?

The FAIR Tax is a 30% flat tax, so it would probably make a difference. But of course, once the shape of the tax (flat) is determined, the rate can be adjusted up or down as needed.

whoman69
07-12-2011, 05:52 PM
hard work

Load of crap. Everyone that works hard is rich then? All rich work hard? Totally delusional.

KC Dan
07-12-2011, 07:10 PM
Load of crap. Everyone that works hard is rich then? All rich work hard? Totally delusional.
It was a one-off smart-azz answer. Guess I should have highlighted that for you. However, this I do believe:

"The reason I see most people not even making it close to "comfortable" let alone "rich" is the decisions they make outside of just working hard. Things like not managing their credit, not saving money wisely, buying toys and amassing loads of debt.

People scream about "the rich man" as they cash their check and run to the Best Buy to get the latest flat screen or X-box game."

petegz28
07-12-2011, 07:38 PM
It was a one-off smart-azz answer. Guess I should have highlighted that for you. However, this I do believe:

"The reason I see most people not even making it close to "comfortable" let alone "rich" is the decisions they make outside of just working hard. Things like not managing their credit, not saving money wisely, buying toys and amassing loads of debt.

People scream about "the rich man" as they cash their check and run to the Best Buy to get the latest flat screen or X-box game."

I said that out of first hand experience. I cannot obviously say this speaks for everyone but I have seen this from former customers to personal friends. I have a very good friend who is single, lives with his mother in her basement, takes home $1200ish every 2 weeks and has no money. Now tell me, HTF does one fuck off $2400 a month when they have no kids, no spouse, very little in rent and no car payment? He has every toy under the sun from stunt kites to remote control cars to computers. He eats out 3 times a day. Saves $0.

Another good friend makes much more money and doesn't live it home but still has no money. Lives with his GF, splits the bills 50-50 and blows every spare $ on toys. Not $1 in a 401k and credit cards are maxed.


I asked my friend if he wanted to take a vacation with us and he said he was broke. I asked him if he wanted to go out to dinner with us and he said he was broke. Then he called me to tell me about the new $400 sewing machine he is buying for his kites, the 15" top of the line sub and amp he bought for he rusted out SUV that coincidentally he had a loan on at 20% because his credit was shit, and that he was getting a new I-pad. Then when his teeth started rotting out of his head he had to suffer for 3 months because he had no money saved to take care of his medical issues.

I saw people at the liquor stores my family owns, many of whom were on gov assistance for food stamps at the least, blowing their paychecks on booze.

By the same token I know a few people who make little on-balance, $30-$40k, have kids, have a nice house, have a decent car and have money in savings for emergencies. Why? Because they don't blow their money impulsively, sacrifice things like HBO, have the cheapest cell phones and plans, eat at home 99% of the time and keep their credit in good standing.


I understand some poor people are poor for certain reasons that extend beyond their control. But the majority I have seen are just piss-poor when it comes to managing their finances, credit and savings.

It usually comes down to one thing; priorities!

ChiefsCountry
07-12-2011, 10:46 PM
I agree with this. I work my ass off and I would love to start my own business but am scared shitless.

Best decision I ever made was going out on my own. Its scary not getting the salary but its way more worth it, feel so much happier in my personal life not to mention physically as well.