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cdcox
08-07-2011, 02:22 PM
This is a bit of a spin off from RedThat's optimism thread.

So if we had a top QB (Manning, Brady, Rivers, Rogers, Brees, or Ryan) would we be considered a strong SB contender? Or would our youth and weaknesses still have us a year or two away?

Brock
08-07-2011, 02:23 PM
y

Tribal Warfare
08-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Yes, no question

cdcox
08-07-2011, 02:28 PM
The offense would definitely be one of the best in the league (top 2 or 3), barring lots of injuries.

Defense should be ranked between 8 and 12.

That would have to give us a shot.

Dave Lane
08-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I don't know about strong, but if you give us Brady I think we are right in the mix.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 02:29 PM
Brady/healthy PM would probably lead us to an undefeated record or at least 14 wins.

Reaper16
08-07-2011, 02:31 PM
For sure. Not a doubt in my mind.

ChiefsCountry
08-07-2011, 02:32 PM
I wouldn't put Ryan in there. Swap out Ryan for Big Ben.

doomy3
08-07-2011, 02:33 PM
Would the Chiefs be SB contenders with one of these 5 guys?

Rodgers
Manning
Brady
Brees
Rivers

Yeah, without a doubt.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 02:37 PM
Rivers
Manning 1
Manning 2
Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Shaub
Bradford
Rothlisberger
Ryan

I think we would be in serious consideration if we had any of those 10 qbs.

Shaub may be pushing it a little, but he did a lot with the 30th ranked defense.

DeezNutz
08-07-2011, 02:40 PM
Of course. One of the top QBs, arguably the best RB, and a top 10 defense? Absolutely make a run at the whole thing. Hell, we'd probably be among the handful of "favorites."

keg in kc
08-07-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm gonna go against the grain and say no. I think they're a year away regardless of who's at quarterback. Would they be better with Brady or Rivers or Rodgers? No question. But not a favorite. Not quite yet. Too many key contributors with less than 4 years in the league for consistent performance, which is only exacerbated by the lockout, and still a few too many questions on the offensive line and in the front 7.

thurman merman
08-07-2011, 02:42 PM
No doubt about it.

DeezNutz
08-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I'm gonna go against the grain and say no. I think they're a year away regardless of who's at quarterback. Would they be better with Brady or Rivers or Rodgers? No question. But not a favorite. Not quite yet. Too many key contributors with less than 4 years in the league for consistent performance, which is only exacerbated by the lockout, and still a few too many questions on the offensive line and in the front 7.

We know the offensive line, for the past year and a half, is good enough for one of the best running attacks in football. A QB like Manning or Brady would exponentially increase the line's ability to pass block.

Cassel is bizarro franchise QB; he makes everyone look worse.

J Diddy
08-07-2011, 02:54 PM
We know the offensive line, for the past year and a half, is good enough for one of the best running attacks in football. A QB like Manning or Brady would exponentially increase the line's ability to pass block.

Cassel is bizarro franchise QB; he makes everyone look worse.


I know exactly what you are saying. He made Bowe and Moeaki look like shit last year.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 02:55 PM
I said yes. But I do not want it to mean Cassel sucks, like most posters here say. I think he has the potential to be good and maybe excellent under Zorn, but when I think about Brady, Peyton, etc., I have to say there's a difference making difference.

Marcellus
08-07-2011, 02:56 PM
Any team with a top 5 QB is always in the running.

-King-
08-07-2011, 02:57 PM
Rivers
Manning 1
Manning 2
Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Shaub
Bradford
Rothlisberger
Ryan

I think we would be in serious consideration if we had any of those 10 qbs.

Shaub may be pushing it a little, but he did a lot with the 30th ranked defense.
FYP

DeezNutz
08-07-2011, 02:59 PM
I know exactly what you are saying. He made Bowe and Moeaki look like shit last year.

Yeah, Cassel really bailed Moeaki out here. Notice the terrible protection:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BfLjAOHY86Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Chiefnj2
08-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Not until Haley shows he can call an offense.

Al Bundy
08-07-2011, 03:03 PM
If the Chiefs had Josh Freeman they would be.

CoMoChief
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
If this team also learned how to stop the run and pass block, then yes we would be a serious contender.

Mr. Laz
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
well this shit has never been discussed

Direckshun
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Defense needs to get much better in the front 7.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
I know exactly what you are saying. He made Bowe and Moeaki look like shit last year.
thats the thing though, Moeaki and Bowe are players that can succeed anywhere they go.

Rivers almost threw for 5000 yards while missing his #1 receiver most the year...Sam Bradford came in and had a good year with no good receivers at all...even Cutler went to the bears and made their passing game decent with guys like Jonny Knox and devin hester as the top targets.

Good quarterbacks make those around them better, not the other way around.
Not until Haley shows he can call an offense.
/arizona 08

RedThat
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Give them Peyton Manning and I say the Chiefs win the Superbowl. Chiefs would be too good. Manning would change the whole dynamics of this offense, and would elevate it to the point where it be a top 5 offense.

Reason, he makes everybody else around him better, and is without a doubt, in my mind, the best impact player in the league. Get Manning, and he makes up for a mediocre OL, and a piss of sh*t OC. Which is what I think the Chiefs have now.

Manning is fortunate to win a SB. I thought his teams were never good enough. But, if this guy was on the Pats during their dynasty years, I still think they win SB's. Put him on Pittsburgh and they win as well. Indy is good because of him. He is the Colts. Lets face it, he is the engine of that team, and is their franchise player. Without him, I think they win 5 games. Take away Manning, and take away Cassel from us. Then compare us to Indy, and we are a lot better. Put Manning on the better team and I think we would be unstoppable.

CoMoChief
08-07-2011, 03:06 PM
FYP

Eli IMO is considerably better than Cassel.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 03:06 PM
If this team also learned how to stop the run and pass block, then yes we would be a serious contender.

classic CoMo

Marcellus
08-07-2011, 03:07 PM
Yeah, Cassel really bailed Moeaki out here. Notice the terrible protection:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BfLjAOHY86Y" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="349" width="425"></iframe>

But Cassel made Moekai look bad as you stated?



If you really want to be objective, you could say that while Cassel made the line look worse than it was at times, especially early and late in the season, the WR group made Cassel look worse than actual at times.

The #2-4 guys at WR were a freaking joke.

Marcellus
08-07-2011, 03:07 PM
Eli IMO is considerably better than Cassel.

Eli was about to be run out of NY until the miracle SB season. He may get run out yet.

DeezNutz
08-07-2011, 03:10 PM
But Cassel made Moekai look bad as you stated?



If you really want to be objective, you could say that while Cassel made the line look worse than it was at times, especially early and late in the season, the WR group made Cassel look worse than actual at times.

The #2-4 guys at WR were a freaking joke.

I agree with that; our #2-4 receivers were a joke.

Bowe and Moeaki were not affected. Shit, the former was putting up great number with Buffalo's 11-million-dollar man.

keg in kc
08-07-2011, 03:10 PM
We know the offensive line, for the past year and a half, is good enough for one of the best running attacks in football. A QB like Manning or Brady would exponentially increase the line's ability to pass block.I don't think any quarterback is going to turn Wiegmann into a better center in the second half of the year, unless they have some magical ability to make him both heavier and younger. Although I do think the trio of Lilja, Wiegmann and Asamoah can feasibly be more effective in pass protection than Waters, Wiegmann and Lilja were a year ago. But it probably comes at a price in the run game.

Although I suppose I probably shouldn't even worry about our 38 year old center and how I expect him to wear out by November, just when we have to face the Patriots, Steelers, Bears, Jets and Packers in consecutive weeks, since it all ultimately comes down to Cassel in the end, and no other player on either our roster or those of the teams we face could possibly have any influence on any game's outcome.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 03:13 PM
Yeah, Cassel really bailed Moeaki out here. Notice the terrible protection:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BfLjAOHY86Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Not exactly sure about your point here, dude. :shrug:

CoMoChief
08-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Eli was about to be run out of NY until the miracle SB season. He may get run out yet.

just about anyone at the QB position in NY is ran out of there.

still doesnt change the fact that eli's better, just because he almost got ran out of there doesn't mean he's not better. Imagine what Cassel would do up there.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 03:17 PM
I agree with that; our #2-4 receivers were a joke.

Bowe and Moeaki were not affected. Shit, the former was putting up great number with Buffalo's 11-million-dollar man.

Thigpen got 11 million?

I was a fan, but DAMN not that big a fan.

For how long? 8? 9 years?

CoMoChief
08-07-2011, 03:17 PM
Not exactly sure about your point here, dude. :shrug"

i think (or hope) he's being sarcastic

BossChief
08-07-2011, 03:19 PM
Not exactly sure about your point here, dude. :shrug"

THAT MOEAKI AND BOWE MADE CASSEL LOOK GOOD A LOT MORE THAN THE REVERSE WAS TRUE.

That play was a microcosm of exactly that.

cmon frankie

DeezNutz
08-07-2011, 03:19 PM
Not exactly sure about your point here, dude. :shrug"

Did Cassel improve the play of Bowe and Moeaki, or did these two make Cassel look better than he really is?

We'll call it Gonzo-Thigpen syndrome.

Definitely could be argued either way.

Pablo
08-07-2011, 03:19 PM
Yes.

These guys only.

Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, and Brees.

DTLB58
08-07-2011, 03:27 PM
Funny, This could have been asked of the Ravens 2000 team also.
Now, I'm not compare the Chiefs D to their's but I am comparing the QB's.
:hmmm:

Chiefnj2
08-07-2011, 03:34 PM
THAT MOEAKI AND BOWE MADE CASSEL LOOK GOOD A LOT MORE THAN THE REVERSE WAS TRUE.

That play was a microcosm of exactly that.

cmon frankie

They lit it up in the playoffs.

TEX
08-07-2011, 03:41 PM
I'm FINE with Matt Cassel as QB. He's young and has improved every year. Let's look at the top QB's in the AFC. In no particular order IMO these guys are better:

Manning, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben,

Then you have guys who are about equal like, Cassel, Schaub, Flacco, Sanchez

So - I'm fine with having a QB in the top half of the AFC and a case could be made that he is # 5 or #6. There's nothing wrong with that IMO. Cassel is good enough to get where we want to go if the team around him gets better. Just my take.

KCtotheSB
08-07-2011, 03:41 PM
Matt Cassel is already a top 5 QB.

notorious
08-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Any team with a top 5 QB is always in the running.

And there it is. It really is that simple.

ThatRaceCardGuy
08-07-2011, 03:43 PM
If we had a descent QB last year we beat Oakland in Oakland, and we win the Baltimore game..

notorious
08-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Matt Cassel is already a top 5 QB.

On the Chiefs roster.

notorious
08-07-2011, 03:44 PM
If we had a descent QB last year we beat Oakland in Oakland, and we win the Baltimore game..

This.

Gonzo
08-07-2011, 03:45 PM
We already have a top 5 qb/ Laz
Posted via Mobile Device

CoMoChief
08-07-2011, 04:03 PM
Matt Cassel is already a top 5 QB.

Hey man, where/who do you get your weed from?

milkman
08-07-2011, 04:03 PM
Give them Peyton Manning and I say the Chiefs win the Superbowl. Chiefs would be too good. Manning would change the whole dynamics of this offense, and would elevate it to the point where it be a top 5 offense.

Reason, he makes everybody else around him better, and is without a doubt, in my mind, the best impact player in the league. Get Manning, and he makes up for a mediocre OL, and a piss of sh*t OC. Which is what I think the Chiefs have now.

Manning is fortunate to win a SB. I thought his teams were never good enough. But, if this guy was on the Pats during their dynasty years, I still think they win SB's. Put him on Pittsburgh and they win as well. Indy is good because of him. He is the Colts. Lets face it, he is the engine of that team, and is their franchise player. Without him, I think they win 5 games. Take away Manning, and take away Cassel from us. Then compare us to Indy, and we are a lot better. Put Manning on the better team and I think we would be unstoppable.

Manning is fortunate to win a SB because his team bailed him out in two games when he tried to give it away, especially against a sorryass KC team that had no real business in the playoffs.

He also go lucky that the Patriot defense was on the decline and wasn't able to put the kind of pressure on Manning that he had wilted against every time he faced them or the Chargers in other playoff matches.

The Bears were simply an inferior opponent.

The fact is, Manning's only SB win was the result of luck and his team carrying him.

Bump
08-07-2011, 04:05 PM
absolutely. But with Cassel we're just a team that's gonna compete to get into the playoffs, but it won't be easy.

milkman
08-07-2011, 04:06 PM
I have always said, give me a franchise QB and a top 10 defense, and I will take my chances against the rest of the league.

There are other factors that play into a SB championship calibre team, but those are the two must have ingredients for a team to compete for, and win multiple SBs.

milkman
08-07-2011, 04:11 PM
And, and to the post regarding Manning.

I forgot to mention that the Colts, and specifically Manning, looked pretty mediocre when the interior of the O-Line struggled to provide him protection.

There is some truth to the belief that Manning makes his O-Line look better than it is, but it's not nearly as much as almost everyone wants to make it out to be.

Tom Brady has always done more to make his look better than Manning has, and both Aaron Rogers and Drew Brees are more effective at doing it.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 04:20 PM
This is an easy question. As I've said before, the elite 5 (Big Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Brees) put any team in the Super Bowl driver's seat every single year.

After you get out of that top 5, lots of teams are making big Super Bowl pushes in completely different ways. Obviously, you need decent play from the QB, but there are terrific QBs who struggle to get to the next level and also average ones who are making deep playoff pushes. The question is, if the Chiefs improve to a top 5 defense and have an even better running game next year, could they make the playoffs with the kind of lukewarm passing attack they had in 2011 (despite our tougher schedule)? Yes, I think they could. And yes, they could make a deep run if we get a few nice bounces in the playoffs. Not how I want to do it. But possible.

The question is, are we confusing franchise QB with elite QB? Because again, even though Philip Rivers is a hell of a lot better of a QB than Sanchez/Flacco, I'd pick the Jets/Ravens over the Chargers in the playoff game every single time.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 05:07 PM
If we had a descent QB last year we beat Oakland in Oakland, and we win the Baltimore game..

Wasn't our game in Oakland a rout?

L.A. Chieffan
08-07-2011, 05:11 PM
cassel is probably a top 3 qb let alone top 5

xztop12
08-07-2011, 05:13 PM
My answer is no. Unless we get a viable pass rusher opposite Hali, I think the D was vastly overrated last year. People forget that good running = shorter games= better defensive stats.

The chargers did whatever they wanted to our D in the first game, and the Ravens did in the last game.

Chiefnj2
08-07-2011, 05:44 PM
If we had a descent QB last year we beat Oakland in Oakland, and we win the Baltimore game..

Stop.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 05:49 PM
Wasn't our game in Oakland a rout?

My bad. Oakland 23, KC 20.

The 31-10 was @ KC.

SNR
08-07-2011, 05:52 PM
My answer is no. Unless we get a viable pass rusher opposite Hali, I think the D was vastly overrated last year. People forget that good running = shorter games= better defensive stats.

The chargers did whatever they wanted to our D in the first game, and the Ravens did in the last game.This D has changed A LOT since a year ago.

I think what we're going to see this year are some young players (Berry, Flowers, Carr, Dorsey, and perhaps even Jackson and Lewis) that really come into their own, having had a season or more to fully grasp what it means to play in the NFL at a high level. The improvements that we'll see at LB depth, the other OLB spot, and at nose with Gregg are going to turn this unit into something really special. I'd say it's definitely the best D in the AFC West.

Count Zarth
08-07-2011, 05:53 PM
I would say no. There are really only two dependable receiving options on offense - Bowe and Breaston. Baldwin and Moeaki need to develop a bit.

If those guys become consistent players, yes.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 05:55 PM
And, and to the post regarding Manning.

I forgot to mention that the Colts, and specifically Manning, looked pretty mediocre when the interior of the O-Line struggled to provide him protection.

There is some truth to the belief that Manning makes his O-Line look better than it is, but it's not nearly as much as almost everyone wants to make it out to be.

Tom Brady has always done more to make his look better than Manning has, and both Aaron Rogers and Drew Brees are more effective at doing it.

I'm with you on Brady and Brees. Not on Aaron Rodgers. In my opinion, he holds on to the ball too long. Like Big Ben, he's found a way to have tremendous success in spite of that, and it's largely because he knows how to buy time. But I've said for a while that it's going to get him killed one day. There's only so many times you as a QB can get knocked around.

milkman
08-07-2011, 05:56 PM
If we had a descent QB last year we beat Oakland in Oakland, and we win the Baltimore game..

While Cassel didn't light up Oakland in Oakland, had Bowe not dropped a catchable pass from Cassel on third down that would have helped the Chiefs burn the clock, the Chiefs win that game.

SNR
08-07-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm with you on Brady and Brees. Not on Aaron Rodgers. In my opinion, he holds on to the ball too long. Like Big Ben, he's found a way to have tremendous success in spite of that, and it's largely because he knows how to buy time. But I've said for a while that it's going to get him killed one day. There's only so many times you as a QB can get knocked around.Rodgers got sacked 31 times last year. That's about average.

From what I see, Rodgers holds onto the ball because he can. He's not an utter moron like Big Ben, who holds onto the ball AND stands in the pocket like a goddamn tree stump while he's being anal raped.

Plus, did you watch the Atlanta/Green Bay playoff game? That was possibly the prettiest game I've ever seen from a quarterback in the history of the NFL.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 06:00 PM
My answer is no. Unless we get a viable pass rusher opposite Hali, I think the D was vastly overrated last year. People forget that good running = shorter games= better defensive stats.

The chargers did whatever they wanted to our D in the first game, and the Ravens did in the last game.

People keep talking about the Baltimore game as if we had some kind of collapse on defense. The defense didn't play badly against Baltimore at all. They gave up a respectable 10 in the first half. They gave the offense plenty of chances to win. The Ravens put the Chiefs away by 10 points that were giftwrapped by stupid turnovers. The Ravens had two automatic red zone opportunities because of stupid turnovers by Cassel and McCluster in the 2nd half.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 06:03 PM
Rodgers got sacked 31 times last year. That's about average.

From what I see, Rodgers holds onto the ball because he can. He's not an utter moron like Big Ben, who holds onto the ball AND stands in the pocket like a goddamn tree stump while he's being anal raped.

Plus, did you watch the Atlanta/Green Bay playoff game? That was possibly the prettiest game I've ever seen from a quarterback in the history of the NFL.

Trust me, I am a huge Aaron Rodgers fan. But he does wait for the last minute to get rid of the ball. He took over 50 sacks 2 years ago, and because he usually waits to get rid of the ball, he gets knocked around a lot more even when he's not sacked than the average QB. He shouldn't change a thing because he's really good at it, but he becomes a much bigger injury risk than the average QB.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 06:10 PM
This D has changed A LOT since a year ago.

I think what we're going to see this year are some young players (Berry, Flowers, Carr, Dorsey, and perhaps even Jackson and Lewis) that really come into their own, having had a season or more to fully grasp what it means to play in the NFL at a high level. The improvements that we'll see at LB depth, the other OLB spot, and at nose with Gregg are going to turn this unit into something really special. I'd say it's definitely the best D in the AFC West.

I agree. I think we are going to see some massive improvements on defense. Berry had the game of his life against Baltimore. Last season, our secondary was lock-down despite an inconsistent pass rush. While I think the Brandons are probably close to hitting their full upside, you expect to see experience improvements from Arenas/Berry/Lewis (maybe even significant improvements). Belcher/Jackson should also have experience improvements, with Siler as a nice backstop. We have depth this season, which we did NOT have last season (especially on the D-line). Gregg is going to make our entire front 7 look a shitload better.

The only position I worry about right now is LOLB. But I think the defense can still be really effective without them as long as our LOLBs don't completely shit the bed. With now adding a power running game, I agree that this could actually have potential to be a top 5 defense.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 06:11 PM
I would say no. There are really only two dependable receiving options on offense - Bowe and Breaston. Baldwin and Moeaki need to develop a bit.

Moeaki is NOT a dependable receiver? Did you watch last season?

Count Zarth
08-07-2011, 06:13 PM
Moeaki is NOT a dependable receiver? Did you watch last season?

We need to see more.

milkman
08-07-2011, 06:13 PM
I'm with you on Brady and Brees. Not on Aaron Rodgers. In my opinion, he holds on to the ball too long. Like Big Ben, he's found a way to have tremendous success in spite of that, and it's largely because he knows how to buy time. But I've said for a while that it's going to get him killed one day. There's only so many times you as a QB can get knocked around.

I think you underestimate what Rogers does.

While he does occassionally hold teh ball too long, he also has an ability, much like Brady, to move in the pocket and make plays, and he's becoming more efficient at that.

He, unlike Brady, can also move away from the pocket and make plays, in much the same way Elway did it.
But as he has grown, he has become more efficient at making plays from the pocket, and he will continue to grow.

Frankie
08-07-2011, 06:13 PM
While Cassel didn't light up Oakland in Oakland, had Bowe not dropped a catchable pass from Cassel on third down that would have helped the Chiefs burn the clock, the Chiefs win that game.

That was a cursed game. A lot of spookiness went down in that game.

milkman
08-07-2011, 06:15 PM
I agree. I think we are going to see some massive improvements on defense. Berry had the game of his life against Baltimore. Last season, our secondary was lock-down despite an inconsistent pass rush. While I think the Brandons are probably close to hitting their full upside, you expect to see experience improvements from Arenas/Berry/Lewis (maybe even significant improvements). Belcher/Jackson should also have experience improvements, with Siler as a nice backstop. We have depth this season, which we did NOT have last season (especially on the D-line). Gregg is going to make our entire front 7 look a shitload better.

The only position I worry about right now is LOLB. But I think the defense can still be really effective without them as long as our LOLBs don't completely shit the bed. With now adding a power running game, I agree that this could actually have potential to be a top 5 defense.

I don't think Carr has yet even touched his full potential.

This guy has Albert Lewis written all over him.

tk13
08-07-2011, 06:16 PM
We'd be a definite favorite. I think we'd still need a 2nd really good pass rusher before we were the best 2-3 teams in the league. The good defenses have them... a Lamarr Woodley/Robert Mathis, if you will. Somebody else at least that can play opposite Hali and be a threat every time he's on the field. You have to have the ability to rush the passer when you're up against the elite QB's at the end.

Exoter175
08-07-2011, 06:27 PM
I don't know about SB contenders, but we'd certainly be a perennial playoff pick.

Right now talent-wise we're a cut above San Diego in this division at almost EVERY single level and position with one exception, Quarterback. It also happens to be one of the most important positions in the league and having a good player in that position can win you games, or in our case last year, keep you from losing some.

Having an all around "better" QB in place of Cassel would of course improve our team, so the obvious answer would be "yes", but I think fundamentally the better question isn't a "top 5" QB, but rather, a cerebral "team player" QB like Brady, Manning, Warner, or Pennington. To which I would say "yes", we would be a SB contender, considerably so with the amount of talent we've managed to amass/grow over the last year or two.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 06:47 PM
I think you underestimate what Rogers does.

While he does occassionally hold teh ball too long, he also has an ability, much like Brady, to move in the pocket and make plays, and he's becoming more efficient at that.

He, unlike Brady, can also move away from the pocket and make plays, in much the same way Elway did it.
But as he has grown, he has become more efficient at making plays from the pocket, and he will continue to grow.

Nah, like I said, if I were Rodgers, I wouldn't change a thing. If I were a Packers fan, I wouldn't want him to change a thing. It works for him.

But his style of play is going to make him more prone to injury. Brees/Brady are pretty consistent about getting a lightning quick release because they can quickly exploit a defense. Rodgers is more of a "let the play develop" kind of guy. He got pretty banged up this season.

So I'm only disagreeing that Rodgers doesn't make his o-line better because he forces them to hold their protections for a lot longer. In fact, Green Bay has often been criticized for their o-line, but I think that's largely Rodgers' doing. Rodgers make his o-line look worse, but that's okay, because Rodgers also knows how to handle himself in pass rush situations better than most QBs in the league.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 06:49 PM
I don't know about SB contenders, but we'd certainly be a perennial playoff pick.

Right now talent-wise we're a cut above San Diego in this division at almost EVERY single level and position with one exception, Quarterback. It also happens to be one of the most important positions in the league and having a good player in that position can win you games, or in our case last year, keep you from losing some.

Having an all around "better" QB in place of Cassel would of course improve our team, so the obvious answer would be "yes", but I think fundamentally the better question isn't a "top 5" QB, but rather, a cerebral "team player" QB like Brady, Manning, Warner, or Pennington. To which I would say "yes", we would be a SB contender, considerably so with the amount of talent we've managed to amass/grow over the last year or two.

So, ...since when is quarterback "one of the most important positions in the league"?

I say build through the trenches first... then once you a perennial 10-6/9-7 team...thats when you "make your move" to trade for a veteran backup that can take the team to the next level and ultimately...the superbowl.

xztop12
08-07-2011, 06:51 PM
People keep talking about the Baltimore game as if we had some kind of collapse on defense. The defense didn't play badly against Baltimore at all. They gave up a respectable 10 in the first half. They gave the offense plenty of chances to win. The Ravens put the Chiefs away by 10 points that were giftwrapped by stupid turnovers. The Ravens had two automatic red zone opportunities because of stupid turnovers by Cassel and McCluster in the 2nd half.

You're forgetting that we were playing against the Ravens. In my view, our offense preformed better than the D.. The ravens hadn't given up a rushing TD of over 30 yards in like 10 years, before that game, it was a truly unbelievable stat...

Ray Rice had his career best recieving game against us, and flaco's QB rating was pretty high.

milkman
08-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Nah, like I said, if I were Rodgers, I wouldn't change a thing. If I were a Packers fan, I wouldn't want him to change a thing. It works for him.

But his style of play is going to make him more prone to injury. Brees/Brady are pretty consistent about getting a lightning quick release because they can quickly exploit a defense. Rodgers is more of a "let the play develop" kind of guy. He got pretty banged up this season.

So I'm only disagreeing that Rodgers doesn't make his o-line better because he forces them to hold their protections for a lot longer. In fact, Green Bay has often been criticized for their o-line, but I think that's largely Rodgers' doing. Rodgers make his o-line look worse, but that's okay, because Rodgers also knows how to handle himself in pass rush situations better than most QBs in the league.

We are going to diagree.

I see Rogers evolving into more of Kurt Warner type QB, with more mobility.

He held the ball far longer in the previous season, and even moreso the season before that.

He's getting quicker at his reads and has a quicker relaese than he gets credit for.

xztop12
08-07-2011, 06:54 PM
we still don't do a good job of forcing turnovers, partially because we don't get big leads with an effective passing attack but also largely because we cannot stop opposing tight ends and pass catching RB's...

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 06:55 PM
We are going to diagree.

I see Rogers evolving into more of Kurt Warner type QB, with more mobility.

He held the ball far longer in the previous season, and even moreso the season before that.

He's getting quicker at his reads and has a quicker relaese than he gets credit for.

Hmm... Kurt Warner is an interesting comparison. We saw him struggle behind a poor offensive line. But we also saw him thrive in Arizona behind an average one, and largely because he knew exactly the right time to throw it before he got leveled.

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 07:00 PM
You're forgetting that we were playing against the Ravens. In my view, our offense preformed better than the D.. The ravens hadn't given up a rushing TD of over 30 yards in like 10 years, before that game, it was a truly unbelievable stat...

Ray Rice had his career best recieving game against us, and flaco's QB rating was pretty high.

Thought our defense played an effective "bend don't break" defense against Baltimore. At times, they got terrific pressure on Flacco. And for most of the first half and early second, they were effective against a really good Ravens run offense. I thought it was a brilliantly coached game by Romeo--they knew Baltimore was going to dominate the middle because we were so weak at Nose Tackle, so we sold out to stop the run. You put a legit Nose Tackle in that game, and our Linebackers would be a hell of a lot more focused on shutting down those dinks and dunks. That one weak gap shouldn't take away the fact that the coaching and other supporting players were effective. In fact, because we were so committed to stopping the run, we really put a lot of pressure on our secondary to cover well. And Berry was all over the field that game. Unbelievable performance on his part.

On offense... man, we had our way running the ball against them, but Cassel completely shit his pants. It's just embarrassing when a defense sells out to stop the run and your QB is completely incapable of taking advantage.

keg in kc
08-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Rodgers helped his line more than he hurt it last year. That wasn't the strongest group of blockers, but he was still only sacked 31 times. It helps that he turned so many broken plays into positive yardage running the ball, which is I think a part of his game that gets overlooked a lot. Either way, that line didn't really excel at anything, either pass protection or run blocking. They weren't terrible, but they weren't among the best, either.

xztop12
08-07-2011, 07:02 PM
I have no way of evaluation a nose tackles play because I don't know what im supposed to be looking for. I went back and watched the game though and Edwards looked strong, more so than Gregg... but again i dont know what i was looking for

Jive Ass
08-07-2011, 07:08 PM
I honestly don't feel like an unfamiliar QB, no matter how good, can come in and all of a sudden make us capable of a Super Bowl win. I'd love to say yes, but I think the development that comes with it is important, too. That would take a year.

I don't doubt that we could make it far into the playoffs, but even that's a toss-up as anything can happen at the time of the season.

Bill Brasky
08-07-2011, 07:18 PM
Rivers
Manning 1
Manning 2
Rodgers
Brady
Brees
Shaub
Bradford
Rothlisberger
Ryan

I think we would be in serious consideration if we had any of those 10 qbs.

Shaub may be pushing it a little, but he did a lot with the 30th ranked defense.

What do you guys think about freeman? He's shown some real potential, certainly not elite status though. I bet he would take us to the conference championship.

Gadzooks
08-07-2011, 07:19 PM
I honestly don't feel like an unfamiliar QB, no matter how good, can come in and all of a sudden make us capable of a Super Bowl win. I'd love to say yes, but I think the development that comes with it is important, too. That would take a year.

I don't doubt that we could make it far into the playoffs, but even that's a toss-up as anything can happen at the time of the season.

Playoffs?!?

Playoffs?

Gadzooks
08-07-2011, 07:20 PM
What do you guys think about freeman? He's shown some real potential, certainly not elite status though. I bet he would take us to the conference championship.

:LOL:
Yeah he's the KEY player that will tip the club over the edge.LMAO

RJ
08-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Sure. And so would most of the other teams projected to be +/- .500.

Gadzooks
08-07-2011, 07:26 PM
Sure. And so would most of the other teams projected to be +/- .500.

If the Chiefs are as far along as everyone seems to think they are, they should insert Trent Dilfer as their QB.

I hear he's available at the right price.:thumb:

chiefzilla1501
08-07-2011, 07:29 PM
I have no way of evaluation a nose tackles play because I don't know what im supposed to be looking for. I went back and watched the game though and Edwards looked strong, more so than Gregg... but again i dont know what i was looking for

Gregg is going to be an enormous upgrade over Edwards, assuming he doesn't slip too much because of age. Good Nose Tackles should be able to close multiple gaps and are often taking on multiple blockers. Edwards usually takes on 1 and he's still adequate at best at moving that guy. Dorsey seemed to take on most of the doubles.

I think any reason Edwards looked better is because the Chiefs schemed around him. Probably the main reason you saw Belcher have the game of his life.

TEX
08-07-2011, 07:39 PM
Moeaki is NOT a dependable receiver? Did you watch last season?

It was his rookie season and he was much better than I expected. I remember a certain # 88 who had issues as well early on.

keg in kc
08-07-2011, 07:43 PM
Thought our defense played an effective "bend don't break" defense against Baltimore. At times, they got terrific pressure on Flacco. And for most of the first half and early second, they were effective against a really good Ravens run offense. I thought it was a brilliantly coached game by Romeo--they knew Baltimore was going to dominate the middle because we were so weak at Nose Tackle, so we sold out to stop the run. You put a legit Nose Tackle in that game, and our Linebackers would be a hell of a lot more focused on shutting down those dinks and dunks. That one weak gap shouldn't take away the fact that the coaching and other supporting players were effective. In fact, because we were so committed to stopping the run, we really put a lot of pressure on our secondary to cover well. And Berry was all over the field that game. Unbelievable performance on his part.

On offense... man, we had our way running the ball against them, but Cassel completely shit his pants. It's just embarrassing when a defense sells out to stop the run and your QB is completely incapable of taking advantage.It's easy to look at the stats and point the finger at Cassel - his numbers for that day were terrible - but I think that game was the poster child for momentum snowballing out of control. Under 10 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter, Chiefs have the ball 4th and short at the Ravens 33, trailing 10-7. Bang, Charles loses 4 yards, turnover on downs. Bang, very next play, defense gives up a 10 yard pass plus a roughing call, and the ball's inside the KC 40. Two-and-a-half minutes the later the Ravens are kicking a field goal and it's 13-7. Then the pressure comes (right up the middle as I recall, but I may be mistaken), there's a grounding on Cassel, then he's sacked, and then McCluster fumbles. Minute-and-a-half later it's 16-7. All that takes less than 5 minutes. The game has turned. Then Thomas Jones is stuffed, then Cassel throws a pick (his second, his first didn't result in any points), and then three minutes after that it's 23-7.

As far as the defense goes, I think KC was probably lucky to even be in the game at that point in the 3rd quarter anyway. Flacco had almost 200 yards passing in the first half. It was not a strong showing for the defense that day, aside from Hali's really big strip/recovery in the first half (Charles' 40+ yard run was 2 plays after that). Todd Heap was basically uncovered most of the day.

I've thought the difference in that game was essentially two-fold: they could pressure the quarterback right up the middle, and we couldn't; and they had multiple legitimate receiving targets (Boldin, Houshmandzadeh, Mason, Rice, all of which helped free up Heap) while we had Verran Tucker and Kevin Curtis trying to free up Moeaki and Bowe (who didn't even have a pass thrown in his general direction during the game as I recall...).

The Chiefs may have seen it that way too, judging by some of the pickups this offseason. Shortage of receiving targets shouldn't ever be a question again, and (IMO of course) Gregg, regardless of his age, is the first prototypical NT we've had since they went 3-4.

That still leaves the question of Cassel, and I don't know any more than anybody else does with regards to how he'll perform going forward. I'm hoping for the best, although I still don't have a good feeling.

xztop12
08-07-2011, 07:48 PM
Gregg is going to be an enormous upgrade over Edwards, assuming he doesn't slip too much because of age. Good Nose Tackles should be able to close multiple gaps and are often taking on multiple blockers. Edwards usually takes on 1 and he's still adequate at best at moving that guy. Dorsey seemed to take on most of the doubles.

I think any reason Edwards looked better is because the Chiefs schemed around him. Probably the main reason you saw Belcher have the game of his life.

I just mean that Edwards looked physically stronger than Gregg in terms of the push he was getting. Also the few plays that Shaun Smith lined up at Nose tackle there was a very noticeable drop off in skill there

Exoter175
08-07-2011, 11:11 PM
So, ...since when is quarterback "one of the most important positions in the league"?

I say build through the trenches first... then once you a perennial 10-6/9-7 team...thats when you "make your move" to trade for a veteran backup that can take the team to the next level and ultimately...the superbowl.

Since the Quarterback is the only other player that handles the ball on every single snap of the offensive drive outside of the Center, who I also rate VERY high up on my list of "Important".

But, I completely agree with your philosophy of building through the trenches, but in order to do that, you at the very least need to get a QB who will at least protect the ball. Which is pretty much what we have with Cassel and I'm okay with it until Stanzi is groomed :D

BossChief
08-07-2011, 11:24 PM
Since the Quarterback is the only other player that handles the ball on every single snap of the offensive drive outside of the Center, who I also rate VERY high up on my list of "Important".

But, I completely agree with your philosophy of building through the trenches, but in order to do that, you at the very least need to get a QB who will at least protect the ball. Which is pretty much what we have with Cassel and I'm okay with it until Stanzi is groomed :D

thats right!

Its funny reading all these guys posts about how important a qb is to a teams success...let me tell you this, NO qb would be anything without a great OL in front of him, great skill position players around him and a crazy defense.

Its like these guys never even watched the Ravens win it all...or the buccaneers...HELLO Trent Dilfer and Brad whatever his name was won SUPERBOWLS!!!ELEVENTY!!!!1111

Give me solid line play over a top quarterback in the NFL any day.

Im so excited!

To The Mutherfuckin BBQ!

Bewbies
08-07-2011, 11:28 PM
thats right!

Its funny reading all these guys posts about how important a qb is to a teams success...let me tell you this, NO qb would be anything without a great OL in front of him, great skill position players around him and a crazy defense.

Its like these guys never even watched the Ravens win it all...or the buccaneers...HELLO Trent Dilfer and Brad whatever his name was won SUPERBOWLS!!!ELEVENTY!!!!1111

Give me solid line play over a top quarterback in the NFL any day.

Im so excited!

To The Muther****in BBQ!

I hope my sarcasm meter is broken on this one...

BossChief
08-07-2011, 11:31 PM
I hope my sarcasm meter is broken on this one...

Whatever Joey Harrington.

Did the truth hurt your feelings?

cdcox
08-07-2011, 11:37 PM
I hope my sarcasm meter is broken on this one...

Actually, when he typed out "eleventy" it probably pegged your sarcasm meter so hard that it bent the needle and melted the circuit board.

Hooking your sarcasm meter up to that post is like grabbing Chuck Norris in the crotch to figure out if he is a boy or a girl.

Bewbies
08-07-2011, 11:39 PM
Any one of the top 5 QB's would make a team as bad as Denver a threat to make the playoffs. If we had one we would be a top 3-5 team in the league right now.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 11:44 PM
Me and Exoter175 were having a good heart to heart and you guys had to go and ruin it.

Damn guyz.

Why cant you see that this team will never win anything with only 1 first rounder...a third round guard, a 7th round right tackle and a couple undrafted guys.

I want to keep going back to the playoffs with a line that will give us a chance to win it all.

Duh

If you have a solid line, you can get by with average players almost everywhere else because the line will make them all probowlers.

I dont understand why I cant order a Willie Roaf FatHead...they would probably sell soooo many of those!

Gadzooks
08-07-2011, 11:46 PM
This thread should have been ended with the simple answer of "No".
(Sometimes I wonder why you guys spin your wheels for no apparent reason...)

notorious
08-07-2011, 11:52 PM
It's official: BossChief has finally lost it.


I agree, Boss, the Truefan way didn't work in the past, and it won't work in the future.

BossChief
08-07-2011, 11:52 PM
This thread should have been ended with the simple answer of "No".
(Sometimes I wonder why you guys spin your wheels for no apparent reason...)

do you think SD wins the west this year?

Gadzooks
08-07-2011, 11:59 PM
do you think SD wins the west this year?

Why yes, yes I do.

BossChief
08-08-2011, 12:04 AM
Why yes, yes I do.

Prepare yourself for disappointment.

tomahawkchop25
08-08-2011, 12:09 AM
Hmm... Kurt Warner is an interesting comparison. We saw him struggle behind a poor offensive line. But we also saw him thrive in Arizona behind an average one, and largely because he knew exactly the right time to throw it before he got leveled.

I love Rodgers. My fantasy qb for 3 years running now.. And I think he's the closest thing to Elway since Elway retired. His mobility, spinning away from the rush, throwing on the run and arm strength are so reminiscent.

Gadzooks
08-08-2011, 12:15 AM
Prepare yourself for disappointment.

How quickly you forget.
Last season was an aberration. Your offense sucks.
- Matt Asssmell is not the answer and you all know it.
- Sure Charles is a great RB, but he's not a workhorse. He's just a little guy and Haley doesn't want him to get a boo boo.
- The rest of the backfield is crap
- Your TE is the equivalent to Alfred Pupunu
- Your WR core is based on Bowe who still does't know if he gives a shit. After him, you have nothing but a mentally challenged rookie.
- OL...:drool:

BossChief
08-08-2011, 12:22 AM
Cute, Asssmell

you think of that all by yourself?

I bet your momma used to say "you have such a good imagination" when everybody else would turn and giggle.

suzzer99
08-08-2011, 12:27 AM
Yeah, Cassel really bailed Moeaki out here. Notice the terrible protection:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BfLjAOHY86Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Is it bad that I'd rather watch that over porn?

Gadzooks
08-08-2011, 12:29 AM
Cute, Asssmell

you think of that all by yourself?

I bet your momma used to say "you have such a good imagination" when everybody else would turn and giggle.

Yeah, I wondered about that one while I was typing it, but I figured you guys would consider it genius.

You’re welcome. ;)

BossChief
08-08-2011, 12:32 AM
I feel blessed to be in the intraweb presence of such greatness.

Chiefs=Good
08-08-2011, 12:59 AM
Yes. Matt has one year to convince me.

Exoter175
08-08-2011, 01:34 AM
Me and Exoter175 were having a good heart to heart and you guys had to go and ruin it.

Damn guyz.

Why cant you see that this team will never win anything with only 1 first rounder...a third round guard, a 7th round right tackle and a couple undrafted guys.

I want to keep going back to the playoffs with a line that will give us a chance to win it all.

Duh

If you have a solid line, you can get by with average players almost everywhere else because the line will make them all probowlers.

I dont understand why I cant order a Willie Roaf FatHead...they would probably sell soooo many of those!

Our line, which used to be our greatest key to victory, is certainly our biggest liability. Which makes things interesting because for the first time in a LONG time, the Chiefs have a TON of playmakers at every other spot on the field. All we need now is the proper line to put in front of our QB and running backs, and we'll be perennial division winners.

That being said, I think our squad is growing a little. Asamoah is going to get his shot, and he looked to be a pretty talented guy. Albert, despite having a pretty underwhelming year last year, is still getting better at every practice since his inception. So it isn't like we've got a line in complete disarray, we just don't have the "All Pro" line from LT to RT like we were once used to having.

Luckily we are a running team with an amazing run blocking Tight End who can also catch (Moeaki) and a very solid backup to him in Pope. Now that we have two additional playmaking wide receivers to put out on the field, we might be able to force defenses to play honest against us and PERHAPS be able to give Jamaal a comparable season in terms of YPC, against a MUCH tougher schedule this year.

J Diddy
08-08-2011, 06:06 AM
Not exactly sure about your point here, dude. :shrug:

I think his point is that Cassell should have laser beamed the ball through the defender who was between Moeaki and Cassell rather than put it up over his head.

He obviously didn't see what I saw. I saw a qb make a throw in the endzone for a td that only his guy had a chance on. His guy made the play.

Pawnmower
08-08-2011, 06:38 PM
yes. we couldve won the superbowl in 09 and 10 as well

/cpdraftfagulators

Halfcan
08-08-2011, 06:43 PM
Cassel really has not had a lot of weapons since he has been here-throw in the fact the receivers we did have-dropped Tons of balls (lead the NFl I believe) plus we didnt have a power running game to keep defenders honest.

This will be a breakout year for him!!

Halfcan
08-08-2011, 06:45 PM
I love Rodgers. My fantasy qb for 3 years running now.. And I think he's the closest thing to Elway since Elway retired. His mobility, spinning away from the rush, throwing on the run and arm strength are so reminiscent.

Elgay Mobil-ROFL He was like Herman Munster back there.

BossChief
08-08-2011, 06:49 PM
yes. we couldve won the superbowl in 09 and 10 as well

/cpdraftpillowbiterulators
you are probably the most butthurt poster on the entire planet

CoMoChief
08-08-2011, 07:09 PM
Cassel really has not had a lot of weapons since he has been here-throw in the fact the receivers we did have-dropped Tons of balls (lead the NFl I believe) plus we didnt have a power running game to keep defenders honest.

This will be a breakout year for him!!

in 2009 the above could be used as an excuse, but the drops were MUCH better last season, improved by a great deal from what I could see.

Cassel's completion % is still horrible, he has little zip on medium routes and has troubles throwing deep to receivers. Just about every deep ball I've seen him throw the WR has to stop or adjust for it as opposed to hitting him in stride. I just don't think he's the type of QB that offenses can rely on driving them down a field late in a game and winning it. His ceiling IMO is nothing more than your better-than-average NFL backup that's good at managing the game and not turning the ball over. That's fine, but unless our defense steps up and becomes a top league-wide dominant defense, then this team will only go as far as Cassel takes them.

This season Cassel has no excuses. He has MORE than enough weapons surrounded around him that are able to make plays for him. He's not ver accurate as I've kinda already stated, the players IMO make him look better. If you look at guys like Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Rivers, those QB's make their WR's better, not the other way around (Cassel).

CoMoChief
08-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Elgay Mobil-ROFL He was like Herman Munster back there.

Elway was mobile during his younger years.....not so much whenever DEN had the SB runs in the late 90's though....he was too old by then.

DeezNutz
08-08-2011, 07:13 PM
Elgay Mobil-ROFL He was like Herman Munster back there.

:spock: What?

BossChief
08-08-2011, 07:18 PM
Our line, which used to be our greatest key to victory, is certainly our biggest liability. Which makes things interesting because for the first time in a LONG time, the Chiefs have a TON of playmakers at every other spot on the field. All we need now is the proper line to put in front of our QB and running backs, and we'll be perennial division winners.

That being said, I think our squad is growing a little. Asamoah is going to get his shot, and he looked to be a pretty talented guy. Albert, despite having a pretty underwhelming year last year, is still getting better at every practice since his inception. So it isn't like we've got a line in complete disarray, we just don't have the "All Pro" line from LT to RT like we were once used to having.

Luckily we are a running team with an amazing run blocking Tight End who can also catch (Moeaki) and a very solid backup to him in Pope. Now that we have two additional playmaking wide receivers to put out on the field, we might be able to force defenses to play honest against us and PERHAPS be able to give Jamaal a comparable season in terms of YPC, against a MUCH tougher schedule this year.
I gotta be honest.

I was just channeling my inner Deez with those posts.

Id trade that whole "Line Of Fame" and Priest Holmes for a SHOT at a real franchise quarterback.

Id make that trade in less than a second.

milkman
08-08-2011, 08:14 PM
:spock: What?

There's a reason I call him Halfwit