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View Full Version : Food and Drink BBQ/Grill/Smoker Experts: I Need Your Advice


thurman merman
08-09-2011, 09:20 PM
I just bought the Char-Griller 5050. It is a combination gas/charcoal grill. It also has an option to add on a side smoker.

In the user manual, it says that I can use a water pan on half the charcoal side of the grill to smoke meat in about a third of the time that it would take in the side smoker. I've never smoked meat before, so I'm curious to know how similar/different these methods would be.

Has anybody tried the indirect heat method with a water pan on a charcoal grill? How does it compare with the slower smoking, taste-wise? Is it good enough, or should I just shell out the extra $50-$75 for the side smoker?

Here's the grill:

http://www.meijer.com/assets/product_images/styles/xlarge/1000947_789792050508_A_400.jpg

And a picture with the optional side smoker attached:
http://www.smoker-cooking.com/images/smoking-brisket-ribs-pork-butt-21352189.jpg

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=char-griller+5050&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=648&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15590522403335790300&sa=X&ei=qeZBTsDgL9SgsQLdm5zWCQ&ved=0CG4Q8wIwAg

Exoter175
08-09-2011, 11:19 PM
Get the side smoker, with the Water Pan you're not going to get nearly the same penetration with the smoke, or anywhere near the same richness into the meat.

That being said, Water Pan setups aren't bad to play with if say, you have a Weber and no other options. But if you're planning to smoke meats, get a true smoker and adjust your heat/smoke settings and play with your chip flavors.

Phobia
08-09-2011, 11:26 PM
I prefer the side fire box but that's just me. I know there are guys who produce some quality meat with a water pan.

thurman merman
08-10-2011, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the input, guys. Any other BBQ vets who chime in will be appreciated also.

MOhillbilly
08-10-2011, 08:19 AM
offset smoking box is a must have for smoking/BBQing. Ive used the water pan method many times its great for birds but i wouldnt use it for loin,ribs,brisket ect. Just never had any luck gettin the meat as tender as it should of been.

tooge
08-10-2011, 08:27 AM
I've used both. In fact, I just sold an offset and my old faithful brinkman vertical so I could by a weber smokey mountain 22inch. I've only smoked on it maybe 5 times, but it is the most consistent heat (225 to 260 for 8 hours easy) and turns out the best food I've ever made. Offsets (side box) do just fine also. You will have a hot side and a less hot side on them and that can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on how much food you are smoking and what types of meat. You will have to tend the fire a bit more on an offset also. Even a good 3/8ths steel unit will need stoking every 3 hours or so.

tooge
08-10-2011, 08:33 AM
Oh, btw, the weber smokey mountain would be considered a vertical or water pan smoker.

MOhillbilly
08-10-2011, 08:35 AM
I've used both. In fact, I just sold an offset and my old faithful brinkman vertical so I could by a weber smokey mountain 22inch. I've only smoked on it maybe 5 times, but it is the most consistent heat (225 to 260 for 8 hours easy) and turns out the best food I've ever made. Offsets (side box) do just fine also. You will have a hot side and a less hot side on them and that can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on how much food you are smoking and what types of meat. You will have to tend the fire a bit more on an offset also. Even a good 3/8ths steel unit will need stoking every 3 hours or so.

How much did you throw down for your smokey mnt?

seclark
08-10-2011, 08:40 AM
i agree w/most of these guys...go ahead w/the side smoker. i'm looking at pretty much the same type of setup. all three parts will come in handy.
sec

KCUnited
08-10-2011, 08:48 AM
How much did you throw down for your smokey mnt?

KC BBQ Store has them for $399, but I've seen them online for around $350. For the 22.5, that is.

thurman merman
08-10-2011, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the input, everybody. I think I will go out and buy the side smoker today. You guys sold me.

seclark
08-10-2011, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the input, everybody. I think I will go out and buy the side smoker today. You guys sold me.

your meat will thank you.
sec

tooge
08-10-2011, 09:46 AM
How much did you throw down for your smokey mnt?

I sold my side smoker for $600 and my vertical water pan smoker for $150 then turned around and bought the 22" WSM for $399. Winning!

thurman merman
08-10-2011, 09:48 AM
Tips for smoking would be appreciated too. I'm planning on getting some ribs today for my first smoking experience. Any advice from our resident experts on what to do/not do while smoking the meat would be wonderful.

Predarat
08-10-2011, 09:48 AM
Another vote for the side box.

tooge
08-10-2011, 10:01 AM
remove the membrane from the bone side of the ribs. Best done with a butter knife and paper towel. coat the ribs in a very light mix of plain yellow mustard and olive oil (helps the rub stick and build a crust). sprinkle rub all over your ribs. dont be shy. you want them coated. dont "rub" it in, it will stick to the mustard/oil glaze. smoke at about 250 for 3 hours. spray with apple juice about every 45 min. cover in foil after 3 hours and cook for another hour and a half. Uncover, sauce if desired, and cook for one last hour. They will be falling off the bone, smoked nicely burt not too much. This is basically how I do them for competition.

Monty
08-10-2011, 10:01 AM
Tips for smoking would be appreciated too. I'm planning on getting some ribs today for my first smoking experience. Any advice from our resident experts on what to do/not do while smoking the meat would be wonderful.

Be patient.....no need to lift the lid to see the results until it's done. If you keep the temp consistent you'll be fine. Also, it takes practice so don't expect competition ribs your first time out.

Monty
08-10-2011, 10:03 AM
remove the membrane from the bone side of the ribs. Best done with a butter knife and paper towel. coat the ribs in a very light mix of plain yellow mustard and olive oil (helps the rub stick and build a crust). sprinkle rub all over your ribs. dont be shy. you want them coated. dont "rub" it in, it will stick to the mustard/oil glaze. smoke at about 250 for 3 hours. spray with apple juice about every 45 min. cover in foil after 3 hours and cook for another hour and a half. Uncover, sauce if desired, and cook for one last hour. They will be falling off the bone, smoked nicely burt not too much. This is basically how I do them for competition.

This

tooge
08-10-2011, 10:04 AM
Oh, I'm sssuming you are using baby backs. If you are using spare ribs, cut off all the extra meat that isn't ribs. rub it too, and smoke it with the ribs. you will need to cook these covered for 2 hours instead of 1.5 like the bb's

seclark
08-10-2011, 10:04 AM
Be patient.....no need to lift the lid to see the results until it's done. If you keep the temp consistent you'll be fine. Also, it takes practice so don't expect competition ribs your first time out.

this...plus everything starts working/tasting better after it's been used a few times.
sec

Coogs
08-10-2011, 10:14 AM
Here is one I have always struggled with...

no need to lift the lid to see the results until it's done

vs

spray with apple juice about every 45 min


...to do the 2nd method, you must lift the lid. Which method is best?

tooge
08-10-2011, 10:21 AM
I prefer to lift the lid real quick and spray. I think he is saying don't lift the lid every 15 minutes to look at them. Every 45 min to an hour won't hurt anything.

MOhillbilly
08-10-2011, 10:23 AM
Here is one I have always struggled with...



vs




...to do the 2nd method, you must lift the lid. Which method is best?

depending on your smoker you can add up to an hour cooking time every time you open the lid.

Good thick steal with a good draw its no biggie. Shit thin steal w/ shit draw its a no no imo.

KCUnited
08-10-2011, 11:19 AM
remove the membrane from the bone side of the ribs. Best done with a butter knife and paper towel. coat the ribs in a very light mix of plain yellow mustard and olive oil (helps the rub stick and build a crust). sprinkle rub all over your ribs. dont be shy. you want them coated. dont "rub" it in, it will stick to the mustard/oil glaze. smoke at about 250 for 3 hours. spray with apple juice about every 45 min. cover in foil after 3 hours and cook for another hour and a half. Uncover, sauce if desired, and cook for one last hour. They will be falling off the bone, smoked nicely burt not too much. This is basically how I do them for competition.

I do mine similar, but I like to sauce them after the final hour and throw them over the hot coals for a minute or so for a little more burn. Personal preference.

Phobia
08-10-2011, 12:32 PM
Don't start with ribs. Start with a port butt or pork loin. Use a meat thermometer - especially on the loin. When that sucker hits 165 pull it and wrap in foil. It won't take nearly as long to smoke as everything else.

Don't forget to season your smoker first.

KCHawg
08-10-2011, 02:15 PM
Use a pump-up type garden sprayer ( preferably new unless you like the taste of Malithion ) for the apple juice instead of a spray bottle. You get the lid closed much faster that way.

tooge
08-10-2011, 02:17 PM
Don't start with ribs. Start with a port butt or pork loin. Use a meat thermometer - especially on the loin. When that sucker hits 165 pull it and wrap in foil. It won't take nearly as long to smoke as everything else.

Don't forget to season your smoker first.

FTR, Phobs is talking about the loin. If you do a butt (shoulder), it'll need to be at least 195 before it is ready.

thurman merman
08-10-2011, 04:17 PM
remove the membrane from the bone side of the ribs. Best done with a butter knife and paper towel. coat the ribs in a very light mix of plain yellow mustard and olive oil (helps the rub stick and build a crust). sprinkle rub all over your ribs. dont be shy. you want them coated. dont "rub" it in, it will stick to the mustard/oil glaze. smoke at about 250 for 3 hours. spray with apple juice about every 45 min. cover in foil after 3 hours and cook for another hour and a half. Uncover, sauce if desired, and cook for one last hour. They will be falling off the bone, smoked nicely burt not too much. This is basically how I do them for competition.

Sounds good :thumb:

thurman merman
08-10-2011, 04:20 PM
Don't start with ribs. Start with a port butt or pork loin. Use a meat thermometer - especially on the loin. When that sucker hits 165 pull it and wrap in foil. It won't take nearly as long to smoke as everything else.

Don't forget to season your smoker first.

Please explain for the noob smoker.

Fire Me Boy!
08-10-2011, 05:06 PM
Please explain for the noob smoker.

http://tinyurl.com/3nu68at

emaw82
08-10-2011, 06:34 PM
I bought that same model last fall and love it. I was planning on buying the side smoker... I put it off and got used to using the water pan method in the charcoal grill and decided that is enough for the amount of meat I cook up. If I were smoking for a big get together I'd prob want the side smoker.

With that model:

Be sure to season it well and keep it oiled up. The reviews I saw said the unit rusts out big time. I don't have any rust yet... but something to keep in mind.

The unit maintains temp great. I have no trouble keeping it around 235 or so while smoking. If using the water pan method, it doesn't take very much charcoal at all. The first time I put about half a chimney of lit charcoal in there with my wood chips and had to prop the lid open because it got way too hot. 1/4 to 1/5 chimney worth of charcoal is plenty and should last an hour before you need to add any.

A great part of this unit is the side gas burner. It is a perfect size to use to light the charcoal in the chimney. Throw your charcoal in the chimney, light up that side burner, and put the chimney on it for 10 minutes or so. Coals are hot and ready to go (for smoking or charcoal grilling). Love it.

Hope you like it. Let me know how well the side smoker works with this grill... I may still end up getting it. So far I've only done pork, spares, turkey breasts, and different types of chicken on it. Made some insane chicken wings on it a few months ago and have been waiting for football season ever since... they'll end up being a gamdeday staple at my house.

KCTitus
08-10-2011, 08:11 PM
Get as indirect as you can regardless your set up...deflect any direct heat if you want true BBQ. A water pan is helpful as it keeps the heat moist. The trick is to learn your smoker and know how it holds the temperature. The key to good BBQ is consistent temps.

Seasoning typically involves spreading the inside and grates with crisco or something like that and getting the smoker really hot so that the oil cooks onto the sides of the smoker. Think of it like seasoning and iron skillet.

As for the spraying of ribs, I have done both ways and found that if you do the 3-2-1 method, the 2hrs wrap time gives you more than enough moisture that spraying is unnecessary. The key is the finish, because after 2hrs in wrap the ribs are so loose that they almost fall apart and you are incapable of making good cuts. You need at least 45mins of finish to firm up the outside of the ribs enough to make them stable enough to cut and present.

Never, ever wrap pork butts...you want a good stiff bark on the outside. There's a ton of fat in those bad boys to keep the inside moist enough. Also, you want to take them to nearly 200 before pulling and resting.

jspchief
08-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the input, everybody. I think I will go out and buy the side smoker today. You guys sold me.Google "BRITU", and follow that recipe as closely as you can.

That's what I did my first attempt at ribs and they were freaking amazing. I may never try anything else.

I'm actually getting ready to rub my butt right now, so I can throw it on in the AM.

thurman merman
08-11-2011, 01:00 AM
I bought that same model last fall and love it. I was planning on buying the side smoker... I put it off and got used to using the water pan method in the charcoal grill and decided that is enough for the amount of meat I cook up. If I were smoking for a big get together I'd prob want the side smoker.

With that model:

Be sure to season it well and keep it oiled up. The reviews I saw said the unit rusts out big time. I don't have any rust yet... but something to keep in mind.

The unit maintains temp great. I have no trouble keeping it around 235 or so while smoking. If using the water pan method, it doesn't take very much charcoal at all. The first time I put about half a chimney of lit charcoal in there with my wood chips and had to prop the lid open because it got way too hot. 1/4 to 1/5 chimney worth of charcoal is plenty and should last an hour before you need to add any.

A great part of this unit is the side gas burner. It is a perfect size to use to light the charcoal in the chimney. Throw your charcoal in the chimney, light up that side burner, and put the chimney on it for 10 minutes or so. Coals are hot and ready to go (for smoking or charcoal grilling). Love it.

Hope you like it. Let me know how well the side smoker works with this grill... I may still end up getting it. So far I've only done pork, spares, turkey breasts, and different types of chicken on it. Made some insane chicken wings on it a few months ago and have been waiting for football season ever since... they'll end up being a gamdeday staple at my house.

Cool, thanks for the tips.

thurman merman
08-11-2011, 01:01 AM
Get as indirect as you can regardless your set up...deflect any direct heat if you want true BBQ. A water pan is helpful as it keeps the heat moist. The trick is to learn your smoker and know how it holds the temperature. The key to good BBQ is consistent temps.

Seasoning typically involves spreading the inside and grates with crisco or something like that and getting the smoker really hot so that the oil cooks onto the sides of the smoker. Think of it like seasoning and iron skillet.

As for the spraying of ribs, I have done both ways and found that if you do the 3-2-1 method, the 2hrs wrap time gives you more than enough moisture that spraying is unnecessary. The key is the finish, because after 2hrs in wrap the ribs are so loose that they almost fall apart and you are incapable of making good cuts. You need at least 45mins of finish to firm up the outside of the ribs enough to make them stable enough to cut and present.

Never, ever wrap pork butts...you want a good stiff bark on the outside. There's a ton of fat in those bad boys to keep the inside moist enough. Also, you want to take them to nearly 200 before pulling and resting.

Thanks.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 02:02 PM
Okay, finally getting around to using the smoker for the first time today. Keep in mind I have never done this before, so don't make fun of me for my ignorance.

From doing research online, I gather that I should start with charcoal on the side smoker, and put wet wood chips on top of that once the coals are hot. I should add more wet chips every 15-30 minutes for a continuous smoke flavor. I have also read that I need to change out the charcoal occasionally. Here are some questions I have for you.

1) How often does the charcoal need to be changed out?
2) When the charcoal is changed out, do I just do the same process as usual? Pour lighter fluid on and just light it up again?
3) What is the optimum place to put the meat? I don't think I'm supposed to put it directly over the fire, right? Should I put it in the middle of the charcoal grill, or the left side, or the right side? Does it matter?
4) I keep hearing that I need to maintain a constant temperature, but there is no temperature gauge on the side smoker itself. Do I just rely on the charcoal grill temperature gauge?

Phobia
08-12-2011, 02:19 PM
1) How often does the charcoal need to be changed out?
When it's getting low. You want to be ahead of it so that you don't lose heat.

2) When the charcoal is changed out, do I just do the same process as usual? Pour lighter fluid on and just light it up again?
Pour a little lighter fluid in your mouth. Do you like the taste? If so, then use it to light your charcoal. Otherwise buy a chimney starter to light your coals.
3) What is the optimum place to put the meat? I don't think I'm supposed to put it directly over the fire, right? Should I put it in the middle of the charcoal grill, or the left side, or the right side? Does it matter? middle is fine as long as you rotate your meat about half-way through. Otherwise, put the meat as far away from the fire as you can without rubbing it on the side of your smoker. Obviously the chamber will be hotter nearer the fire so you want to control that as well as is possible.
4) I keep hearing that I need to maintain a constant temperature, but there is no temperature gauge on the side smoker itself. Do I just rely on the charcoal grill temperature gauge?
Doesn't matter what the temp is in the firebox. You only care what the temp is in your smoking chamber where the meat will be cooking.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 03:23 PM
When it's getting low. You want to be ahead of it so that you don't lose heat.

Pour a little lighter fluid in your mouth. Do you like the taste? If so, then use it to light your charcoal. Otherwise buy a chimney starter to light your coals.
middle is fine as long as you rotate your meat about half-way through. Otherwise, put the meat as far away from the fire as you can without rubbing it on the side of your smoker. Obviously the chamber will be hotter nearer the fire so you want to control that as well as is possible.

Doesn't matter what the temp is in the firebox. You only care what the temp is in your smoking chamber where the meat will be cooking.

Thank you for the help, sir. I will now go out and purchase a chimney starter.

Renegade
08-12-2011, 03:28 PM
I bought the same grill set up last year, and love it.

1. Buy the grill cover, worth the $50 to save your grill
2. Get the side smoker box, great if you are doing small amounts of meat.
3. You will find that charcoal will cook at different heats. When you smoke in the winter time, you will have to add more charcoal than you do smoking in the summer time.
4. Follow the recipe for the ribs. Start with Baby Backs. Much easier to do than spare ribs IMHO. My total cook time for BB ribs is 3.5 hours
5. As a general rule, each briquet will generate 10-15 degrees of heat. Most places indicate each one generates 25 degrees, but I have never found that to be true. I use around 20-25 briquets to keep my temp between 200-250. Low and Slow is the rule to follow.
6. Post pictures of your first smoking.

MOhillbilly
08-12-2011, 03:30 PM
stove black is like 15 bucks a quart. Redid Big Black a few weeks ago. Fuckin oil based paint!

Fire Me Boy!
08-12-2011, 03:35 PM
Thank you for the help, sir. I will now go out and purchase a chimney starter.

Seriously, if you find the Walmart brand (which is $10, I think), pass. Go to Lowe's and spend $15 on the Weber chimney starter. When I first bought mine, I figured chimney starters were all alike. The Walmart brand was very difficult to get things going. The Weber, which is shorter and wider, has better air flow and will light your coals on first try.

Groves
08-12-2011, 03:51 PM
stove black is like 15 bucks a quart. Redid Big Black a few weeks ago. ****in oil based paint!

Dude, I'm going to weld a counterweight on that lid.

Phobia
08-12-2011, 05:06 PM
5. As a general rule, each briquet will generate 10-15 degrees of heat. Most places indicate each one generates 25 degrees, but I have never found that to be true. I use around 20-25 briquets to keep my temp between 200-250. Low and Slow is the rule to follow.

See - that's crap. Every rig is going to be a little different. Every person operating that rig is going to get a little bit different results because they'll control their dampers a little bit differently. I leave my chimney wide open and close my firebox damper off to about 1". My charcoal lasts a very long time. But I don't know how many I put in there. I generally use an entire chimney. I also don't use chips I use chunks of wood. In fact, I'll routinely use wood entirely for the whole smoke.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 05:41 PM
I bought the same grill set up last year, and love it.

1. Buy the grill cover, worth the $50 to save your grill
2. Get the side smoker box, great if you are doing small amounts of meat.
3. You will find that charcoal will cook at different heats. When you smoke in the winter time, you will have to add more charcoal than you do smoking in the summer time.
4. Follow the recipe for the ribs. Start with Baby Backs. Much easier to do than spare ribs IMHO. My total cook time for BB ribs is 3.5 hours
5. As a general rule, each briquet will generate 10-15 degrees of heat. Most places indicate each one generates 25 degrees, but I have never found that to be true. I use around 20-25 briquets to keep my temp between 200-250. Low and Slow is the rule to follow.
6. Post pictures of your first smoking.

I've read a lot of bad reviews about the grill cover, saying it's cheaply made and rips easily. Have you had any problems with it?

Thanks for the tips.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 05:56 PM
When using the 3-2-1 method, do the ribs need to be flipped over at any point during the first 3 hours? Or do I just leave them on one side the whole time?

Monty
08-12-2011, 05:59 PM
Others may do something differently, but I leave them on one side. This helps to align with the no peeky rule as well. With that being said, experiment both ways. You may find a technique that works better for you.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 06:10 PM
Others may do something differently, but I leave them on one side. This helps to align with the no peeky rule as well. With that being said, experiment both ways. You may find a technique that works better for you.

Thanks.

Phobia
08-12-2011, 06:19 PM
When using the 3-2-1 method, do the ribs need to be flipped over at any point during the first 3 hours? Or do I just leave them on one side the whole time?

I don't flip ribs over - I turn them from the hot side of the fire.

The reason cooking and smoking are so popular and generate so much discussion is because there are so many techniques. None of us are necessarily right or wrong about these things. Just try out some different stuff to see what works best on your rig and for your family's tastes.

Renegade
08-12-2011, 09:31 PM
I've read a lot of bad reviews about the grill cover, saying it's cheaply made and rips easily. Have you had any problems with it?

Thanks for the tips.

Yes I am on my second cover in two seasons. Mine is in direct sunlight, so it fades pretty quickly.

Renegade
08-12-2011, 09:36 PM
See - that's crap. Every rig is going to be a little different. Every person operating that rig is going to get a little bit different results because they'll control their dampers a little bit differently. I leave my chimney wide open and close my firebox damper off to about 1". My charcoal lasts a very long time. But I don't know how many I put in there. I generally use an entire chimney. I also don't use chips I use chunks of wood. In fact, I'll routinely use wood entirely for the whole smoke.

I agree completely. Some days it burns hot, and some days not as hot. Bag to bag is different too. I was just giving some basis for how much charcoal. Everyone has their own method that works for them. I love chunks, and have been using a lot of persimmon for my ribs, pear for my fish, and oak for the beef.

Phobia
08-12-2011, 09:41 PM
I agree completely. Some days it burns hot, and some days not as hot. Bag to bag is different too. I was just giving some basis for how much charcoal. Everyone has their own method that works for them. I love chunks, and have been using a lot of persimmon for my ribs, pear for my fish, and oak for the beef.

That wasn't intended to be a personal slight. I figured you cut and paste it from some source and it's probably a decent guideline but only in a laboratory. There are too many variables to nail that down.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 09:41 PM
Six hours later -- finally finished. Looks a little burnt on the corners. Taste test coming soon.

Phobia
08-12-2011, 09:48 PM
It's probably slightly overdone but you may well like it that way. I like smoking my ribs closer to 200 which gives them a jerky texture that is supposedly a big "no-no". But I like it that way so screw the so-called experts.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 10:02 PM
Oh man. So good. Tastes much better than it looks. It was a little tough on the edges and wasn't quite "fall-off-the-bone," but they taste really really good.

Round 2 tomorrow. I've got an 8.65-pound piece of brisket waiting for this smoker.

Dayze
08-12-2011, 10:07 PM
nice.
I'm hopeful to attempt my first smoking this fall; going to get an electric smoker (can't have anything other than an electric heating element at the apartment complex).

Phobia
08-12-2011, 10:17 PM
Oh man. So good. Tastes much better than it looks. It was a little tough on the edges and wasn't quite "fall-off-the-bone,"

Heh - another thing "experts" do not approve of. It's not supposed to fall off the bone. Screw 'em.

thurman merman
08-12-2011, 10:22 PM
Heh - another thing "experts" do not approve of. It's not supposed to fall off the bone. Screw 'em.

I'm pretty sure I just like ribs no matter what. Falling off the bone? Delicious. Tough and taste like jerky? Delicious.

thurman merman
08-13-2011, 12:19 AM
Preparing for round two of the weekend smokefest tomorrow. One massive chunk of beef brisket. Drizzled with a layer of honey on each side, and topped with homemade rub (brown sugar, paprika, salt, pepper, chili powder, garlic powder, and onion powder). Marinating overnight in Cherry Dr. Pepper, Worcestershire sauce, onion powder, and garlic salt.

Fire Me Boy!
08-13-2011, 07:32 AM
Preparing for round two of the weekend smokefest tomorrow. One massive chunk of beef brisket. Drizzled with a layer of honey on each side, and topped with homemade rub (brown sugar, paprika, salt, pepper, chili powder, garlic powder, and onion powder). Marinating overnight in Cherry Dr. Pepper, Worcestershire sauce, onion powder, and garlic salt.

That seems like a LOT of sugar for a brisket. Be careful. Those long smoke times, the sugar will go past "caramelized" and turn to "burnt".

OnTheWarpath58
08-13-2011, 09:24 AM
Thinking of smoking a 2.5 pound pork loin today. Any thoughts on how long this might take at 200-225 degrees?

thurman merman
08-13-2011, 12:37 PM
That seems like a LOT of sugar for a brisket. Be careful. Those long smoke times, the sugar will go past "caramelized" and turn to "burnt".

We'll see. It's my first time, so I'll learn from my mistakes as I go. I got the marinade recipe online and it sounded good.

MTG#10
08-13-2011, 12:43 PM
Get the side smoker, with the Water Pan you're not going to get nearly the same penetration with the smoke, or anywhere near the same richness into the meat.


I use a Weber smoky mountain with a water pan. My ribs fall off the bone and every person who has ever tasted them say they're the best they've ever had. They're better than anything Ive ever got in a restaurant in KC that's for sure.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 12:45 PM
That seems like a LOT of sugar for a brisket. Be careful. Those long smoke times, the sugar will go past "caramelized" and turn to "burnt".

Temperatures never get high enough in smoking to caramelize sugars.

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 12:48 PM
Here is one I have always struggled with...



vs




...to do the 2nd method, you must lift the lid. Which method is best?

Easy: Both - sorta.

Meat stops truly accepting smoke around 140 degrees (give or take 5 degrees either way). So what I've always done is leave the lid closed at 225 for about 2 hours (that'll usually get you there).

Once you're no longer adding to the smoke ring above 140, the smoke serves to cook a little bit, but more importantly, to create your bark. That's when you spray with the apple juice. It creates what's called a Maillard reaction. The apple juice and its sugars will help the smoke adhere to the outside of the meat. It will layer over itself over and over again and give you that really rich smoke flavor that you get at the good barbecue joints.

I usually raise my heat a little bit when I'm doing that as well. I'll usually do that for another couple of hours to finish. You'll get a nice smoke ring AND you'll get that badass bark that really makes a good smoked meat.

OnTheWarpath58
08-13-2011, 12:49 PM
Thinking of smoking a 2.5 pound pork loin today. Any thoughts on how long this might take at 200-225 degrees?

*cough*

Is this thing on?

Fire Me Boy!
08-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Temperatures never get high enough in smoking to caramelize sugars.

Maillard reaction can occur much earlier though. You generally use less sugar on longer smoked meats because the sugar can turn bitter.

jspchief
08-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Have a meat thermometer? I'd go to about 170 internal temp, then wrap it tightly in foil, cover with a towel and rest it for an hour.

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DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:04 PM
*cough*

Is this thing on?

3 hours, give or take 1/2 an hour or so.

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Maillard reaction can occur much earlier though. You generally use less sugar on longer smoked meats because the sugar can turn bitter.

Yup, smoke overload.

It's not that the sugar has caramelized, it's that it's just trapped waaaaay to much smoke and the smoke has started to get acrid.

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:06 PM
Have a meat thermometer? I'd go to about 170 internal temp, then wrap it tightly in foil, cover with a towel and rest it for an hour.

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If it's ever been frozen, I think 170 is way way too high for a loin.

Meat that's ever been frozen has killed off the trichinosis. At 170, you'll be awfully dry just for the sake of being dry, IMO. I'd take it off at about 155 and wrap it for a bit. It should climb up to about 160. That's a perfect temp for a pork loin, IMO.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 01:08 PM
Maillard reaction can occur much earlier though. You generally use less sugar on longer smoked meats because the sugar can turn bitter.

Maillard happens at high temperatures and has nothing to do with low and slow. Sugars don't caramelize at 225.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 01:09 PM
Yup, smoke overload.

It's not that the sugar has caramelized, it's that it's just trapped waaaaay to much smoke and the smoke has started to get acrid.

Remind me not to invite you to work with my BBQ team.

jspchief
08-13-2011, 01:12 PM
If it's ever been frozen, I think 170 is way way too high for a loin.

Meat that's ever been frozen has killed off the trichinosis. At 170, you'll be awfully dry just for the sake of being dry, IMO. I'd take it off at about 155 and wrap it for a bit. It should climb up to about 160. That's a perfect temp for a pork loin, IMO.

Frozen? Eww.

I like to hit 165 with a loin, so I said 170 to be safe. But to be fair I do use a water pan.

If it stalled at 155 I probably wouldn't be afraid to take it off.

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DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:13 PM
Remind me not to invite you to work with my BBQ team.

Awwww sadface

Barbecue tough guys crack me the hell up. If anyone was 'right', there wouldn't be 1000 ways to do it.

But you go right on believing that you've unlocked the holy grail.

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Frozen? Eww.

I like to hit 165 with a loin, so I said 170 to be safe. But to be fair I do use a water pan.

If it stalled at 155 I probably wouldn't be afraid to take it off.

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My old man pulls them at 145 and hasn't killed me yet.

The opinions on pork are just crazy divergent. I'm pretty certain at this point that you could live 100 years pulling fresh pork off at 150 and be just fine, but a lot of people just won't eat it if there's pink in it.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Awwww sadface

Barbecue tough guys crack me the hell up. If anyone was 'right', there wouldn't be 1000 ways to do it.

But you go right on believing that you've unlocked the holy grail.

We've placed 2nd in KCBBQ society sanctioned competitions. Go along your merry way.

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 01:23 PM
We've placed 2nd in KCBBQ society sanctioned competitions. Go along your merry way.

Congrats - and I've learned from folks that have placed in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri. I'm not nearly as good as them, but I'm not a moron either.

You're wrong - a Maillard reaction absolutely occurs at lower temps. It is much more pronounced at higher temps, but if you set it at 225 and keep the moisture levels appropriate, you'll absolutely get some of the 'browning' associated with it. The reaction occurs and if left unchecked, can give you a nasty 'burnt' smoke flavor.

As I said in my first post, you want to raise your heat to finish (thus giving you a good bark), but to say that the reaction simply doesn't occur at 225 is folly.

But you go ahead and break out your E-Peen here, everyone is very very impressed.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Congrats - and I've learned from folks that have placed in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri. I'm not nearly as good as them, but I'm not a moron either.

You're wrong - a Maillard reaction absolutely occurs at lower temps. It is much more pronounced at higher temps, but if you set it at 225 and keep the moisture levels appropriate, you'll absolutely get some of the 'browning' associated with it. The reaction occurs and if left unchecked, can give you a nasty 'burnt' smoke flavor.

As I said in my first post, you want to raise your heat to finish (thus giving you a good bark), but to say that the reaction simply doesn't occur at 225 is folly.

But you go ahead and break out your E-Peen here, everyone is very very impressed.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Maillard needs temps above 300F and needs a specific pH level. Carry on.

jspchief
08-13-2011, 01:31 PM
I'm still pretty new but one of my favorite rubs has what I think would be a high sugar content. It comes out pretty black, but the flavor doesn't suffer.

As for pork temps, I really believe there's a lot of leeway cooking at such low temps. The important thing to me is resting it.



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Stewie
08-13-2011, 01:37 PM
I'm still pretty new but one of my favorite rubs has what I think would be a high sugar content. It comes out pretty black, but the flavor doesn't suffer.

As for pork temps, I really believe there's a lot of leeway cooking at such low temps. The important thing to me is resting it.



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Most rubs have a high sugar content. It melts and flavors the meat while mingling with the other spices.

Pork depends on the cut. I always under cook large cuts because of carry over cooking. Over cooked pork is bad bad bad.

OnTheWarpath58
08-13-2011, 01:41 PM
If it's ever been frozen, I think 170 is way way too high for a loin.

Meat that's ever been frozen has killed off the trichinosis. At 170, you'll be awfully dry just for the sake of being dry, IMO. I'd take it off at about 155 and wrap it for a bit. It should climb up to about 160. That's a perfect temp for a pork loin, IMO.

Frozen? Eww.

I like to hit 165 with a loin, so I said 170 to be safe. But to be fair I do use a water pan.

If it stalled at 155 I probably wouldn't be afraid to take it off.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Thanks, fellas.

I was planning on hitting 155 and pulling it, wrapping it and letting it rest.

Just had no idea how long it would take to get there.

Fire Me Boy!
08-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Maillard happens at high temperatures and has nothing to do with low and slow. Sugars don't caramelize at 225.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Maillard needs temps above 300F and needs a specific pH level. Carry on.

I'm sorry, Stewie, but you're wrong. Caramelization can occur between 250 and 300 degrees. Maillard happens easily at 300, but can occur much lower.

I've Googled this just to make sure, and the words that are important in describing when Maillard happens are "most readily" - As in: "The Maillard reaction occurs most readily at around 300 F to 500 F."

Obviously, higher temps will make it happen faster, but like it or not, it does occur at lower temps. If you don't believe it, put a roast in the oven at 225 degrees for a few hours. You will have browning (Maillard).

As I was researching to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass, I discovered that in some cases, Maillard can happen at room temperature given enough time and the right circumstances. According to a number of sources just by Googling "maillard reaction temperatures," you'll find that some prize-winning dark beers have been colored by room temperature Maillard reactions in roasted malts.

Stewie
08-13-2011, 04:32 PM
I'm sorry, Stewie, but you're wrong. Caramelization can occur between 250 and 300 degrees. Maillard happens easily at 300, but can occur much lower.

I've Googled this just to make sure, and the words that are important in describing when Maillard happens are "most readily" - As in: "The Maillard reaction occurs most readily at around 300 F to 500 F."

Obviously, higher temps will make it happen faster, but like it or not, it does occur at lower temps. If you don't believe it, put a roast in the oven at 225 degrees for a few hours. You will have browning (Maillard).

As I was researching to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass, I discovered that in some cases, Maillard can happen at room temperature given enough time and the right circumstances. According to a number of sources just by Googling "maillard reaction temperatures," you'll find that some prize-winning dark beers have been colored by room temperature Maillard reactions in roasted malts.

Yeah, whatever. I can get water to boil at 190 if I wait long enough.

Fire Me Boy!
08-13-2011, 04:46 PM
Yeah, whatever. I can get water to boil at 190 if I wait long enough.

Being pissy and acting lie a teenage girl doesn't change the fact that you were wrong, Stewie. It doesn't make you a lesser cook or BBQer.

And I don't care how long you wait, water won't boil at 190 degrees F unless you're more than 10,000 feet above sea level. It'll steam, and it'll evaporate, but no amount of waiting will get 190-degree water to boil (below 10,000 feet).

DJ's left nut
08-13-2011, 04:57 PM
Being pissy and acting lie a teenage girl doesn't change the fact that you were wrong, Stewie. It doesn't make you a lesser cook or BBQer.

And I don't care how long you wait, water won't boil at 190 degrees F unless you're more than 10,000 feet above sea level. It'll steam, and it'll evaporate, but no amount of waiting will get 190-degree water to boil (below 10,000 feet).

As near as I can tell, his sole purpose in this thread has been to be pissy and act like a teenage girl. That or just a condescending (inaccurate) prick.

Fuck him, I'm not going to argue with the guy; it's not worth the effort. Afterall, he came in second in a barbecue competition once. Guess I'll never get to be on his team though, and for that I am truly heartbroken.

I heard a quote awhile ago that I found particularly apt for courtrooms, message boards and pretty much any other situation where you're arguing with a stubborn jackass:

"A memorandum isn't designed to educate the reader, but to protect the writer."

When someone's intent on remaining inaccurate - let them. You know where you stand and it's in writing.

mlyonsd
08-13-2011, 05:07 PM
Smoked a couple rump roasts today. Getting ready to slice them into French Dips. This stuff rocks:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41k3izsy%2B8L.jpg

KCTitus
08-13-2011, 08:02 PM
When using the 3-2-1 method, do the ribs need to be flipped over at any point during the first 3 hours? Or do I just leave them on one side the whole time?

I use rib racks so they stand up...no turning.