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View Full Version : Other Sports KC is the 5th most overextended market for professional sports. Denver the most.


|Zach|
08-15-2011, 12:39 PM
Interesting to think about.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

Denver is under more financial stress than any other professional-sports market in North America, according to a new On Numbers study.

Denver heads a list of 20 overextended markets, all of which have insufficient income bases to support their existing major-league teams. Complete rankings can be found in the database below.

On Numbers analyzed 85 metropolitan areas in the United States and Canada to determine if they have the financial ability to support professional teams in baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Click here for the complete methodology.

The Denver area would need total personal income (TPI) of $209.3 billion to provide an adequate base for its five existing teams, according to the study. (TPI is the sum of all money earned by all residents in a given year.) But Denverís actual TPI is $121.9 billion, yielding an income deficit of $87.4 billion.

This shortfall doesnít necessarily mean that any of Denverís teams will move or fold. But itís a reliable sign that those teams can expect continued volatility in attendance and revenues.

Nineteen other markets are overextended, based on estimates by On Numbers. Among them are five areas with TPI deficits larger than $50 billion: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Kansas City and Milwaukee.
The other 65 metros included in the study either have sufficient income to support their existing franchises or donít have any major-league teams at all.

Stewie
08-15-2011, 12:47 PM
I think NFL support is more regional than just limiting it to the metro area. I'm pretty sure Green Bay is supported by the entire state of Wisconsin. I know there a thousands of season ticket holders that live in Milwaukee.

-King-
08-15-2011, 12:49 PM
We'd probably be #1 if we got a hockey/basketball team.

CrazyPhuD
08-15-2011, 12:51 PM
So people aren't giving 10% of their salary in denver for the Tebow support fund?

Bwana
08-15-2011, 12:55 PM
The future, LA Broncos?

blaise
08-15-2011, 01:00 PM
The Chiefs and Royals have stadium leases of like 20 years, don't they?

HotRoute
08-15-2011, 01:20 PM
Pittsburg? Wow never would thought they would be in there

MagicHef
08-15-2011, 01:23 PM
"Continued volatility in attendance and revenues?" Isn't Denver 2nd in longest sellout streak?

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:23 PM
Pittsburg? Wow never would thought they would be in there

The Steelers have been the only serious game in town for years so I suppose it's not hard to support one team really well.

blaise
08-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Pittsburg? Wow never would thought they would be in there

Well, three major sports teams in a city that's probably close to the size of KC is probably quite a bit to pay for.

Los Pollos Hermanos
08-15-2011, 01:25 PM
Pittsburg? Wow never would thought they would be in there

The Gorillas are not the powerhouse they once were.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:25 PM
"Continued volatility in attendance and revenues?" Isn't Denver 2nd in longest sellout streak?

One team... they're talking about a big picture that includes all the teams in a given city... although I wasn't aware the Rockies, Avalanche or Nuggets had big attendance problems but they may.

MagicHef
08-15-2011, 01:27 PM
One team... they're talking about a big picture that includes all the teams in a given city... although I wasn't aware the Rockies, Avalanche or Nuggets had big attendance problems but they may.

Not that I know of they don't. Although I think there's a soccer team here, too. Maybe no one goes to their games.

blaise
08-15-2011, 01:28 PM
One team... they're talking about a big picture that includes all the teams in a given city... although I wasn't aware the Rockies, Avalanche or Nuggets had big attendance problems but they may.

I bet the corporate dollars are a large indicator. How many luxury suites they sell, sponsorships, etc.

And TV revenues based on the market.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:29 PM
I bet the corporate dollars are a large indicator. How many luxury suites they sell, sponsorships, etc.

Would make sense.

ChiefsCountry
08-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Of course this is only a study on the metro areas themselves, most in the sports business know that cities like Denver, Kansas City, St. Louis, etc are big time regional draws which increase alot of them more.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:31 PM
Of course this is only a study on the metro areas themselves, most in the sports business know that cities like Denver, Kansas City, St. Louis, etc are big time regional draws which increase alot of them more.

This is a good point and one not addressed in the study from the look of it.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
One team... they're talking about a big picture that includes all the teams in a given city... although I wasn't aware the Rockies, Avalanche or Nuggets had big attendance problems but they may.

The Broncos are still selling out easily, though their season ticket wait list has fallen a bit in recent years. I believe the Rockies are doing fine. Keep in mind that they sucked for 15 years, so now that they're at least a playoff contender most years, their attendance is probably fine. The Nuggets and Avs are both struggling a bit (and especially the Avs). I don't really know what expectations are for the Rapids. I've been to a couple of games, and they were probably 3/4ths full.

OnTheWarpath58
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Not sure if this was considered, but Pittsburgh fans have been paying out the nose the past few years because of deep playoff runs by the Steelers and Penguins.

NFL and NHL playoff tickets - especially conference championship games/Stanley Cup finals - are ridiculously expensive.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:38 PM
This is a good point and one not addressed in the study from the look of it.

If you're counting on the raw numbers, you're probably right. In terms of ranking, though, I doubt it'd change much if you changed the "radius" used since most cities would see similar impacts from expanding the area a bit.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:41 PM
If you're counting on the raw numbers, you're probably right. In terms of ranking, though, I doubt it'd change much if you changed the "radius" used since most cities would see similar impacts from expanding the area a bit.

Another good point. There's so much brain power and logic being thrown around in this thread. Am I on ChiefsPlanet still?

;)

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:42 PM
The Broncos are still selling out easily, though their season ticket wait list has fallen a bit in recent years. I believe the Rockies are doing fine. Keep in mind that they sucked for 15 years, so now that they're at least a playoff contender most years, their attendance is probably fine. The Nuggets and Avs are both struggling a bit (and especially the Avs). I don't really know what expectations are for the Rapids. I've been to a couple of games, and they were probably 3/4ths full.

Haven't the Nuggets and Av's been competitive most years? If so and they're struggling maybe there is a ray of truth to the study?

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:45 PM
Not sure if this was considered, but Pittsburgh fans have been paying out the nose the past few years because of deep playoff runs by the Steelers and Penguins.

NFL and NHL playoff tickets - especially conference championship games/Stanley Cup finals - are ridiculously expensive.

The Penguins have been good I take it? I don't follow hockey so unless a team is in the Stanley Cup finals I have little or no impression of them. Doesn't Sidney Crosby play for them? I've heard more about him than the team I guess.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 01:46 PM
Haven't the Nuggets and Av's been competitive most years? If so and they're struggling maybe there is a ray of truth to the study?

Nuggets: yes. Avs: kind of. But then, the Nuggets' attendance is still quite a bit better than the Avs. I'd guess that, if the Nuggets were to really take a dive, they might start to struggle a bit more in the attendance category.

blaise
08-15-2011, 01:49 PM
The thing about Pittsburgh and KC is they have their new or renovated stadiums. It would be scarier for a market where they needed money for a large renovation or new construction. I don't know if KC would get the same votes now that they got for the stadium tax a few years back.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 01:52 PM
The thing about Pittsburgh and KC is they have their new or renovated stadiums. It would be scarier for a market where they needed money for a large renovation or new construction. I don't know if KC would get the same votes now that they got for the stadium tax a few years back.

I always thought of Pittsburgh as being a bigger city than it is. Know a guy who moved there recently and was telling me about it. Was surprised it wasn't really considered a "major" city.

Hydrae
08-15-2011, 01:59 PM
I thought this was very interesting:

We used team revenue data and average ticket prices to calculate the amount of TPI needed to adequately support a team in each league. Minimum income bases were estimated to be $85.4 billion for MLB, $37.6 billion for the NHL, $36.7 billion for the NFL, $34.2 billion for the NBA, and $15.4 billion for MLS.

No wonder baseball has money issues. And what is up with the large $$ number needed for the NHL?

blaise
08-15-2011, 02:01 PM
I thought this was very interesting:



No wonder baseball has money issues. And what is up with the large $$ number needed for the NHL?

Maybe because they get smaller national TV revenue dollars so they need a larger pool of local money from in game attendance? I don't know.

|Zach|
08-15-2011, 02:02 PM
Glad to see how well the area has supported Sporting Kansas City.

http://www.shobb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Sporting-Kansas-City.jpg

CrazyPhuD
08-15-2011, 02:04 PM
I always thought of Pittsburgh as being a bigger city than it is. Know a guy who moved there recently and was telling me about it. Was surprised it wasn't really considered a "major" city.

Pittsburgh may have been a 'big' city at some point but post the 70s steel mill closure there has been a major population loss. They are up there with detroit on population flow. In short no one really wants to live there anymore.

Stewie
08-15-2011, 02:08 PM
Glad to see how well the area has supported Sporting Kansas City.

http://www.shobb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Sporting-Kansas-City.jpg

I was at Livestrong for the first time on Saturday. It's a first rate facility. Parking needs to improve. I have no idea where people park for the big races at the track. They did run shuttle buses, which helped.

blaise
08-15-2011, 02:14 PM
Pittsburgh may have been a 'big' city at some point but post the 70s steel mill closure there has been a major population loss. They are up there with detroit on population flow. In short no one really wants to live there anymore.

It's kind of a cool town though with the downtown stadiums. When you drive around down there the stadiums are right there, part of the downtown. There's bars and stuff around there. I haven't been to Detroit's downtown, but Pittsburgh's downtown seemed ok.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
I thought this was very interesting:



No wonder baseball has money issues. And what is up with the large $$ number needed for the NHL?

I'd bet having no salary cap and outrageous contracts in baseball contributes to that. Pay a guy what some teams get paid and you have to sell more tickets at higher prices to afford that. Although that shouldn't have much bearing on small market teams like KC who don't pay those types of contracts typically.

|Zach|
08-15-2011, 02:16 PM
I was at Livestrong for the first time on Saturday. It's a first rate facility. Parking needs to improve. I have no idea where people park for the big races at the track. They did run shuttle buses, which helped.

Parking is a bit wonky. I think they do the best with what they have.

MagicHef
08-15-2011, 03:18 PM
If you're counting on the raw numbers, you're probably right. In terms of ranking, though, I doubt it'd change much if you changed the "radius" used since most cities would see similar impacts from expanding the area a bit.

I really doubt Denver and say, Philadelphia would see similar impacts from expanding the radius. Colorado and much of Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah is pretty different from the greater Philadelphia area before you start running into other teams' territory.

Los Pollos Hermanos
08-15-2011, 03:21 PM
I really doubt Denver and say, Philadelphia would see similar impacts from expanding the radius. Colorado and much of Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah is pretty different from the greater Philadelphia area before you start running into other teams' territory.

You're right. There are probably more Eagle fans in South Jersey then there are people in WY and MT.

DaFace
08-15-2011, 03:25 PM
I thought this was very interesting:

We used team revenue data and average ticket prices to calculate the amount of TPI needed to adequately support a team in each league. Minimum income bases were estimated to be $85.4 billion for MLB, $37.6 billion for the NHL, $36.7 billion for the NFL, $34.2 billion for the NBA, and $15.4 billion for MLS.

No wonder baseball has money issues. And what is up with the large $$ number needed for the NHL?

My guess is it's a combination of player salaries in the respective leagues and the number of games played. It costs a lot of money to rent out a 20k-person arena 40-50 times per year.

Hydrae
08-15-2011, 03:30 PM
My guess is it's a combination of player salaries in the respective leagues and the number of games played. It costs a lot of money to rent out a 20k-person arena 40-50 times per year.

Yeah, I wondered how much of it was due to the length of the season causing more overhead.But that does not explain why the NBA is lower than the NFL in that case. :shrug:

Halfcan
08-15-2011, 03:53 PM
KC draws fans from all over the mid west-dumb article.