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View Full Version : Obama ATMs again blamed for unemployment and internets and stuff


HonestChieffan
08-17-2011, 10:08 PM
Bush caught a small break today.

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/great-depression-unemployment-line-550x405.jpg

President Obama at a town hall meeting at Wyffels Hybrids Inc. seed company, in Atkinson, Illinois:

“One of the challenges in terms of rebuilding our economy is — businesses have gotten so efficient, that, uh, when was the last time somebody went to a bank teller? Instead of using an ATM. Or, used a travel agent instead of going online. A lot of jobs out that that used to require people now have become automated.”

petegz28
08-17-2011, 10:10 PM
I guess we should blame Al Gore for inventing the intrawebs???

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 10:10 PM
That's absolutely true.

petegz28
08-17-2011, 10:14 PM
That's absolutely true.

Automation has been putting people out of work one way or the other since the beginning of time. Humans have constantly invented and refined tools to make work easier. It has always happened, it will continue to happen, which is why free markets are an important part of our success. With every advance in technology new jobs are created in some way shape or form. It doesn't always = 1-1 for jobs lost to jobs created but in the end I think it's a wash.

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 10:19 PM
Automation has been putting people out of work one way or the other since the beginning of time. Humans have constantly invented and refined tools to make work easier. It has always happened, it will continue to happen, which is why free markets are an important part of our success. With every advance in technology new jobs are created in some way shape or form. It doesn't always = 1-1 for jobs lost to jobs created but in the end I think it's a wash.

The past 40 years or so has seen a tidal wave of a transition from our industrial economy to an information economy. It's not that we can't find new jobs. It's that the transition is difficult. And when the transition is difficult and the population is enormous, the transition becomes immense.

Obama is speaking a mere truism.

petegz28
08-17-2011, 10:25 PM
The past 40 years or so has seen a tidal wave of a transition from our industrial economy to an information economy. It's not that we can't find new jobs. It's that the transition is difficult. And when the transition is difficult and the population is enormous, the transition becomes immense.

Obama is speaking a mere truism.

I agreee the trasition can be difficult and often requires re-training or educating yourself further. But for instance take how we went from mainframe terminals to the PC. While a lot of old mainframers found themselves out of work millions upon millions of new jobs were created.

That being said, this is why our economic policies are so important. A lot and I mean a lot of those jobs are now going overseas.

prhom
08-17-2011, 10:46 PM
The past 40 years or so has seen a tidal wave of a transition from our industrial economy to an information economy. It's not that we can't find new jobs. It's that the transition is difficult. And when the transition is difficult and the population is enormous, the transition becomes immense.

Obama is speaking a mere truism.

Here's an interesting question to consider:

Who's to say that in an information-dominated economy a normal unemployment rate isn't really around 15%? I tend to think that some people will never be able to transition to working in an information economy. Everyone is capable of manual labor, though some are better at it than others and those with a higher intellect are able to survive without doing it. However, not everyone has the mental capacity to compete in an information economy. Those who don't, have very little to fall back on because the cost of living and land is typically higher in an information economy thus putting them in an impossible position where they can't work and can't sustain themselves through subsistence farming.

So the real question is what to do with those who can't transition? Do you create an artificial wage floor or allow them to survive through transfer payments?

evenfall
08-17-2011, 10:53 PM
It's this kind of mentality that leads to states where its illegal to pump your own gas.

Maybe he'll put some kind of brutal tax on kitchen appliances so we all start eating at restaurants?

Saulbadguy
08-17-2011, 10:55 PM
It creates new, skilled jobs. ATM repairman. Webmasters/IT support for a travel website.

blaise
08-17-2011, 10:59 PM
The past 40 years or so has seen a tidal wave of a transition from our industrial economy to an information economy. It's not that we can't find new jobs. It's that the transition is difficult. And when the transition is difficult and the population is enormous, the transition becomes immense.

Obama is speaking a mere truism.

I don't recall him speaking much of that truism when he talked about job loss under Bush.

prhom
08-17-2011, 11:03 PM
It creates new, skilled jobs. ATM repairman. Webmasters/IT support for a travel website.

But the ratio of lost jobs to new jobs is pretty high. If the operating cost of the new scenario isn't less than the operating cost of the old then the transition is never made because there's no payback for the capital investment.

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 11:23 PM
Here's an interesting question to consider:

Who's to say that in an information-dominated economy a normal unemployment rate isn't really around 15%? I tend to think that some people will never be able to transition to working in an information economy. Everyone is capable of manual labor, though some are better at it than others and those with a higher intellect are able to survive without doing it. However, not everyone has the mental capacity to compete in an information economy. Those who don't, have very little to fall back on because the cost of living and land is typically higher in an information economy thus putting them in an impossible position where they can't work and can't sustain themselves through subsistence farming.

So the real question is what to do with those who can't transition? Do you create an artificial wage floor or allow them to survive through transfer payments?

I think that's an issue that's definitely at the margins. The average person is smart enough to go through school levels and learn some foundational skill sets to help them in the computer/information age.

Those at the margin of not being smart enough -- I think there will always be manual labor jobs, or service type jobs that don't require professional training.

trndobrd
08-17-2011, 11:24 PM
So lets think about this ATM claim for just a bit...

Triton, Diebold and NCR employ tens of thousands of people in their US manufacturing operations and competitively export ATM machines around the world. There are many thousands more Americans employed by software and communication companies that specialize is ATM support. Add to that, even more people who earn a living by installing, repairing and servicing ATM machines.

From an economic activity perspective, does the availability of readily available cash help the overall economy? Perhaps small businesses, food and beverage vendors, restaurants, and the like, would be helped if their customers had to wait until Monday between 9am and 5:00pm to withdraw some cash from the bank?

If we want to dig deeper, what about the lost productivity in an economy in which every single well digger, lawyer, truck driver and doctor is forced to take time off work to go stand in line at the bank.

If ATMs are a problem, everyone receiving automatic deposit is equally responsible for high unemployement. We are robbing employment opportunities from would be bank cashiers who should be processing millions of depositied paychecks every Friday!

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 11:24 PM
It's this kind of mentality that leads to states where its illegal to pump your own gas.

That quote isn't a mentality. It's a fact.

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 11:26 PM
I don't recall him speaking much of that truism when he talked about job loss under Bush.

What was the context of that talk? Do you have link?

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 11:26 PM
It creates new, skilled jobs. ATM repairman. Webmasters/IT support for a travel website.

One ATM repairman can fix 8 ATMs per day.

Jenson71
08-17-2011, 11:29 PM
So lets think about this ATM claim for just a bit...

Triton, Diebold and NCR employ tens of thousands of people in their US manufacturing operations and competitively export ATM machines around the world. There are many thousands more Americans employed by software and communication companies that specialize is ATM support. Add to that, even more people who earn a living by installing, repairing and servicing ATM machines.

From an economic activity perspective, does the availability of readily available cash help the overall economy? Perhaps small businesses, food and beverage vendors, restaurants, and the like, would be helped if their customers had to wait until Monday between 9am and 5:00pm to withdraw some cash from the bank?

If we want to dig deeper, what about the lost productivity in an economy in which every single well digger, lawyer, truck driver and doctor is forced to take time off work to go stand in line at the bank.

If ATMs are a problem, everyone receiving automatic deposit is equally responsible for high unemployement. We are robbing employment opportunities from would be bank cashiers who should be processing millions of depositied paychecks every Friday!

This is a pretty good post. But I don't think Obama is saying that ATMs are a problem; just that they have costs.

prhom
08-17-2011, 11:42 PM
I think that's an issue that's definitely at the margins. The average person is smart enough to go through school levels and learn some foundational skill sets to help them in the computer/information age.

Those at the margin of not being smart enough -- I think there will always be manual labor jobs, or service type jobs that don't require professional training.

I agree that the average person is smart enough to learn computer skills and to operate them, but the what an information economy really requires and rewards is critical thinking and analysis of information. You can't teach that, people either have it or don't.

If you're smart enough to create a system that can do the work of 10 people then you can be paid the salary of about 5 of them and the salary of the other 5 will go toward paying back the capital required to build the system. I think you're marginalizing the devastating effect that technology can have on employment.

blaise
08-17-2011, 11:58 PM
What was the context of that talk? Do you have link?

Are you asking if I have a link showing he wasn't attributing job loss to ATM machines while he was campaigning during Bush's presidency?

Ebolapox
08-18-2011, 12:01 AM
So lets think about this ATM claim for just a bit...

Triton, Diebold and NCR employ tens of thousands of people in their US manufacturing operations and competitively export ATM machines around the world. There are many thousands more Americans employed by software and communication companies that specialize is ATM support. Add to that, even more people who earn a living by installing, repairing and servicing ATM machines.

From an economic activity perspective, does the availability of readily available cash help the overall economy? Perhaps small businesses, food and beverage vendors, restaurants, and the like, would be helped if their customers had to wait until Monday between 9am and 5:00pm to withdraw some cash from the bank?

If we want to dig deeper, what about the lost productivity in an economy in which every single well digger, lawyer, truck driver and doctor is forced to take time off work to go stand in line at the bank.

If ATMs are a problem, everyone receiving automatic deposit is equally responsible for high unemployement. We are robbing employment opportunities from would be bank cashiers who should be processing millions of depositied paychecks every Friday!

ROFL

well stated.

Jenson71
08-18-2011, 12:01 AM
Are you asking if I have a link showing he wasn't attributing job loss to ATM machines while he was campaigning during Bush's presidency?

Are we just supposed to blindly trust your 'recall'?

blaise
08-18-2011, 12:03 AM
Are we just supposed to blindly trust your 'recall'?

I need to prove that I don't recall it?

Jenson71
08-18-2011, 12:05 AM
I need to prove that I don't recall it?

The context of his speeches against the economy under Bush? Do you recall anything about it, and if not, does your opinion on this matter at all?

blaise
08-18-2011, 12:10 AM
The context of his speeches against the economy under Bush? Do you recall anything about it, and if not, does your opinion on this matter at all?

I would say the context of his speeches focused more on assigning blame to the Republican party and less on explaining job losses on innovations such as the ATM machine, if that's what you're asking.

If you're asking me to go back, research quotes from his campaign speeches, and paste them here in order to back that up, then no, I'm not interested in doing that. You can do what you want with my opinion.

Jenson71
08-18-2011, 12:15 AM
I would say the context of his speeches focused more on assigning blame to the Republican party and less on explaining job losses on innovations such as the ATM machine, if that's what you're asking.

If you're asking me to go back, research quotes from his campaign speeches, and paste them here in order to back that up, then no, I'm not interested in doing that. You can do what you want with my opinion.

Thanks for the allowance. I'll just consider it snarky and partisan and not too clever and leave it at that.

blaise
08-18-2011, 12:18 AM
Thanks for the allowance. I'll just consider it snarky and partisan and not too clever and leave it at that.

I assume my posts are generally considered snarky. The level of wit may vary. You, on the other hand, seem like a good enough guy, but other times you lapse into a moody bitter guy.

Jenson71
08-18-2011, 12:25 AM
I think that's accurate. Something I have to work on.

Saul Good
08-18-2011, 08:12 AM
I'm going to wait until thatguy\dottefan comes back before I make a cotton gin reference just to piss him off.

Saulbadguy
08-18-2011, 08:15 AM
One ATM repairman can fix 8 ATMs per day.

That's true. We are becoming more efficient with technology, and while it creates more jobs, I don't believe it is an equal ratio to the jobs it replaces.

Which leaves us with one very important lesson.

STOP BREEDING

HonestChieffan
08-18-2011, 08:23 AM
Would be interesting to know comparing say today to oh, lets pick 2000.

How many banks and bank branch locations there are in the US in each year. Now I know we cannot use one observation for the universe, but in my lil town, by my count, we have 9 banks/bank branch locations today. That does not count Farm Credit Services.

Of the 9, 5 were not here in 2000.

We have ATMs all over.

Each of the new bank buildings are filled with people. None of the old bank locations are empty. And when you go in the bank, each office has a person and it seems the drive up as well as inside teller windows have a person.

Someone should do the math and demonstrate to the Prez that once again he is as full of shit as a Christmas goose.

JonesCrusher
08-18-2011, 08:24 AM
One ATM repairman can fix 8 ATMs per day.

Really? How do you know this? Maybe if the machines are side by side, but they usually aren't. I don't think you have any idea about ATM repair.

Saulbadguy
08-18-2011, 08:25 AM
Would be interesting to know comparing say today to oh, lets pick 2000.

How many banks and bank branch locations there are in the US in each year. Now I know we cannot use one observation for the universe, but in my lil town, by my count, we have 9 banks/bank branch locations today. That does not count Farm Credit Services.

Of the 9, 5 were not here in 2000.

We have ATMs all over.

Each of the new bank buildings are filled with people. None of the old bank locations are empty. And when you go in the bank, each office has a person and it seems the drive up as well as inside teller windows have a person.

Someone should do the math and demonstrate to the Prez that once again he is as full of shit as a Christmas goose.

Brilliant logic. I'm impressed.