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View Full Version : Environment Utilities warn of higher rates because of pollution rules


petegz28
08-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Two state utilities said this week new federal pollution rules will lead to higher electricity costs come January.

Wisconsin Public Service Corp. of Green Bay said its residential customers can expect an increase of more than $4 a month next year, including about $2 linked to the new rules designed to limit air pollution from coal-fired power plants.

The utility said it would see higher costs of about $32.6 million in 2012 from the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule that was finalized recently by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. That will result in rates going up by 6.8% instead of 3.4%, the utility said.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last month finalized stronger regulations for Wisconsin and 26 other states aimed at curbing air pollution from long-distance sources.

Environmental groups praised the new rule because it would reduce acid rain and air pollution as well as help curb health effects from dirty air linked to coal plants. The EPA projected the rule will save up to 34,000 lives a year and prevent more than 400,000 asthma attacks as well as 19,000 admissions to hospitals.

Nationwide, the EPA estimated that utilities are projected to spend $800 million on the rule in 2014, in addition to $1.6 billion a year that's been spent to satisfy an earlier version of the regulations.

But the EPA estimates the nation will see $120 billion to $280 billion in annual health and welfare benefits beginning in 2014.

The new rule has been in development for several years but the first phase of compliance hits utilities in 2012. WPS said it won't have time to install pollution controls by next year at its plants, but will be able to comply by purchasing credits from other utilities that have cut emissions.

The utility also said it plans to operate its coal plants less next year than it otherwise would have, and will buy more power from the Midwest wholesale power market as a result, a move that it said is also a factor in higher costs for customers.

"This is the best option we have to meet power supply needs for 2012 and comply with the new EPA rule at this time," said Karen Kollmann, WPS director of fuels management in a statement.

On Thursday, Wisconsin Power & Light Co. of Madison said it would face an additional $9 million in costs linked to the air pollution rule. With the change, the utility is now seeking an increase in 2012 of $20 million, or 2%, utility finance manager Martin Seitz said in a filing with state regulators.

Todd Stuart, executive director of the Wisconsin Industrial Energy Group, criticized the increases, and he noted that large energy users like paper mills will see higher than average increases, compared with homeowners and small businesses. Paper mills served by WPS could see a 9% hike, he said.

"The EPA's new rules have directly resulted in a major new cost for struggling homeowners and manufacturers," Stuart said in a statement. "Members of Congress should be taking a very hard look at the significant compliance costs of EPA's new mandates."

"Industry always cries wolf whenever EPA tries to reduce air pollution," said Katie Nekola, lawyer with the conservation group Clean Wisconsin. "The fact is, the new rule will affect old, inefficient, unnecessary coal plants that should have been shut down long ago. The continued operation of those old units is costing ratepayers money, but you don't hear industry complaining about that."

http://www.jsonline.com/business/128109718.html

cdcox
08-21-2011, 01:32 AM
So if they repeal the rules the headline should read:

Utilities warn of higher hospitalization and death rates due to repeal of pollution rules.

-or-

US to spend over $100B on health care to save $1.6B in utility bills.

petegz28
08-21-2011, 08:09 AM
So if they repeal the rules the headline should read:

Utilities warn of higher hospitalization and death rates due to repeal of pollution rules.

-or-

US to spend over $100B on health care to save $1.6B in utility bills.

:rolleyes:

banyon
08-21-2011, 09:07 AM
So if they repeal the rules the headline should read:

Utilities warn of higher hospitalization and death rates due to repeal of pollution rules.

-or-

US to spend over $100B on health care to save $1.6B in utility bills.

pretty much. :)

2bikemike
08-21-2011, 10:14 AM
Of course they will increase their rates. Anybody who thinks differently is completely nieve. They are in the business of making money for their services increase their costs to do business and they will pass on those costs.

Utilities must alway present their rate case to the PUC. The PUC will then decide if the case has merit and will allow an adjustment of rates as necessary. It works both ways. If the utilities costs go down such as a dive in fuel prices then the rates will go down.

Backwards Masking
08-21-2011, 10:37 AM
Whats stupid is if this passes in order to make up for the extra cost of energy, everyone will have to work harder and earn more money. Which means more driving to work, more figuring out how to pull the extra cash out of the money supply, more time and energy spent in aquiring the cash to pay the bill, which, ultimately, will require MORE use of gas and electricity and other energy sources than it would if they just kept prices the same. Which means MORE price hikes in a few years to pay for the CURRENT price spike now. Basically we're pissing into the wind everytime we raise energy costs like this.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-21-2011, 01:21 PM
Whats stupid is if this passes in order to make up for the extra cost of energy, everyone will have to work harder and earn more money. Which means more driving to work, more figuring out how to pull the extra cash out of the money supply, more time and energy spent in aquiring the cash to pay the bill, which, ultimately, will require MORE use of gas and electricity and other energy sources than it would if they just kept prices the same. Which means MORE price hikes in a few years to pay for the CURRENT price spike now. Basically we're pissing into the wind everytime we raise energy costs like this.

Hey it's the new America, something we can relay to our grandchildren.

Pants
08-21-2011, 01:24 PM
Sounds good to me.

I will gladly pay more money if it means cleaner air for me and mine to breathe.

Pants
08-21-2011, 01:26 PM
Whats stupid is if this passes in order to make up for the extra cost of energy, everyone will have to work harder and earn more money. Which means more driving to work, more figuring out how to pull the extra cash out of the money supply, more time and energy spent in aquiring the cash to pay the bill, which, ultimately, will require MORE use of gas and electricity and other energy sources than it would if they just kept prices the same. Which means MORE price hikes in a few years to pay for the CURRENT price spike now. Basically we're pissing into the wind everytime we raise energy costs like this.

Yeah, how will you EVER be able to pay $10 more a month for your electricity usage? OH THE HUMANITY!

Backwards Masking
08-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Yeah, how will you EVER be able to pay $10 more a month for your electricity usage? OH THE HUMANITY!

Yeah, $10 a month x 300 million people isn't anyting. it certainly won't result in more businesses being built and more cars being purchased and more energy being consumed to fund.

penchief
08-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Yep. And higher mileage cars are bad for the consumer. We've heard it all before. It's nothing more than economic blackmail.

**** our air. **** our ground water. Let's just keep digging our own grave. Why not just get rid of all regulations and restore America to the time of the robber barons where anything and everything goes? That should work out just fine.

America is no longer an ideal. Our country has become nothing more than a commercial enterprise. It's the personal playground of the corporate establishment and those who can buy free reign to rape, pillage, and exploit.

Keep deregulating the environment and financial institutions. And keep cutting corporate taxes and taxes on the top 2% and watch this country continue down the path it has followed for 30 years.

At some point this country will have to wake up and see what is right in front of its face. American's have been getting conned for over three decades. Things keep getting worse for us while the corporate establishment continues to get what it wants. And we keep feeding the monster. At what point will people do the ****ing math?

Garcia Bronco
08-22-2011, 10:28 AM
2 bucks a month for cleaner air...sounds like a good deal. Get you shit in order Wisconsin. I am tired of hearing from you.

Donger
08-22-2011, 10:31 AM
Yep. And higher mileage cars are bad for the consumer. We've heard it all before. It's nothing more than economic blackmail.

**** our air. **** our ground water. Let's just keep digging our own grave. Why not just get rid of all regulations and restore America to the time of the robber barons where anything and everything goes? That should work out just fine.

America is no longer an ideal. Our country has become nothing more than a commercial enterprise. It's the personal playground of the corporate establishment and those who can buy free reign to rape, pillage, and exploit.

Keep deregulating the environment and financial institutions. And keep cutting corporate taxes and taxes on the top 2% and watch this country continue down the path it has followed for 30 years.

At some point this country will have to wake up and see what is right in front of its face. American's have been getting conned for over three decades. Things keep getting worse for us while the corporate establishment continues to get what it wants. And we keep feeding the monster. At what point will people do the ****ing math?

LMAO

penchief
08-22-2011, 10:32 AM
LMAO

ROFL

Amnorix
08-22-2011, 10:34 AM
Wisconsin Public Service Corp. of Green Bay said its residential customers can expect an increase of more than $4 a month next year, including about $2 linked to the new rules designed to limit air pollution from coal-fired power plants.


.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQQkeD3i1S_kARDDDqLVsRuCd4ylSIf5mJOiP68-RnmMKgppur

Brock
08-22-2011, 10:36 AM
Sounds like another tax that won't make any difference at all.

mlyonsd
08-22-2011, 10:50 AM
Save 34,000 lives a year?

Was that the first number they pulled out of their ass or did they have multiple pulls and just did an average?

HonestChieffan
08-22-2011, 08:42 PM
Bush fault

BigChiefFan
08-22-2011, 10:35 PM
Another money grab by the crooks. It's all going to continue to get worse if people just sit there and take it.

Backwards Masking
08-23-2011, 08:17 AM
Sounds like another tax that won't make any difference at all.

It will help get clean the air before all the extra energy and gas used to drive around coming up for the new funding dirties the air it was intended to clean. In other words, you're right.

Donger
08-23-2011, 08:26 AM
Another money grab by the crooks. It's all going to continue to get worse if people just sit there and take it.

You could always just generate your own electricity. Drill for your own NG.

Garcia Bronco
08-23-2011, 09:26 AM
Bush fault

This one actually is. Clinton had the EPA pass rules on air scrubbers for coal burning plants. A rule Bush did not enforce. Had he enforced it. This would have happened already. Kids growing up near these plants have a higher rate of repository problems. We need to protect our people when it makes sense. This is one of those times.

BigChiefFan
08-23-2011, 10:56 AM
You could always just generate your own electricity. Drill for your own NG.

I plan to generate my own electricity, once I get back to the property I bought and I'll use propane instead of NG, but the carbon credit crap is a money grab and most can't afford the luxury of generating their own electricity. I'm all for profit, but when they government is shutting down plants and it jacks up the price, I see a direct correlation, which means they are fucking over the little guy, all for greed, not the enviroment.

Radar Chief
08-23-2011, 11:19 AM
I plan to generate my own electricity, once I get back to the property I bought and I'll use propane instead of NG, but the carbon credit crap is a money grab and most can't afford the luxury of generating their own electricity. I'm all for profit, but when they government is shutting down plants and it jacks up the price, I see a direct correlation, which means they are ****ing over the little guy, all for greed, not the enviroment.

Not disagreeing but just for FYI purposes, propane = LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas). Being derived from petroleum its price will rise and fall with the price of crude. NG burns just as clean and comes from right here in the US of A.

Pants
08-23-2011, 11:28 AM
Yeah, $10 a month x 300 million people isn't anyting. it certainly won't result in more businesses being built and more cars being purchased and more energy being consumed to fund.

How much more are you going to have to drive to cover that $10 a month? Also, can you tell me how much cleaner the air will be due to the new regulations? Exactly how much pollution will your hypothetical "more driving" produce?

Brock
08-23-2011, 11:30 AM
I plan to generate my own electricity, once I get back to the property I bought and I'll use propane instead of NG, but the carbon credit crap is a money grab and most can't afford the luxury of generating their own electricity. I'm all for profit, but when they government is shutting down plants and it jacks up the price, I see a direct correlation, which means they are fucking over the little guy, all for greed, not the enviroment.

If you have acreage you should look at geothermal.

Jenson71
08-23-2011, 11:39 AM
Sounds good to me.

I will gladly pay more money if it means cleaner air for me and mine to breathe.

Yeah, that's sort of how I feel. Bad lungs is probably pretty expensive in the long run.

BigChiefFan
08-23-2011, 12:47 PM
If you have acreage you should look at geothermal.

I've heard really good things about it, but admittedly don't know enough to make an informed decision, at this point. I appreciate the advice, I'll look more into. I don't have alot of acreage...just 5 acres.

Brock
08-23-2011, 12:49 PM
I've heard really good things about, but admittedly don't know enough about it. I appreciate the advice, I'll look more into. I don't have alot of acreage...just 5 acres.

That's enough. If you can get that constant 65 degrees pumped out of the ground and into your home, you'll cut way down on your climate control bill.

BigChiefFan
08-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Not disagreeing but just for FYI purposes, propane = LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas). Being derived from petroleum its price will rise and fall with the price of crude. NG burns just as clean and comes from right here in the US of A.

I prefer natural gas, but the property is a bit off the beaten path and I'm not sure they have the NG lines available for hook-up.

Radar Chief
08-23-2011, 12:55 PM
That's enough. If you can get that constant 65 degrees pumped out of the ground and into your home, you'll cut way down on your climate control bill.

Thatís what I thought you were talking about.
The long tubes run underground below the frost level so they remain a constant temperature. Blow air through the tubes and you get warming air in the winter and cooling air in the summer.
If youíre building a new home itís a damn good idea. It wonít completely handle your heating and cooling but it does the majority of it so your heater and ac have a lot less work to do.

BigChiefFan
08-23-2011, 12:55 PM
That's enough. If you can get that constant 65 degrees pumped out of the ground and into your home, you'll cut way down on your climate control bill.

I've heard the intial cost is a bit pricey, but you're money ahead long-term. That's what I prefer, so when we get in our twilight years, having an expensive utility bill won't be a big concern. I'd rather bite the bullet now, so long-term, we are self-sufficient. I do appreciate it and plan on looking into it alot more.

Radar Chief
08-23-2011, 12:55 PM
I prefer natural gas, but the property is a bit off the beaten path and I'm not sure they have the NG lines available for hook-up.

Ah, understandable. In-laws are in the same boat.

cookster50
08-23-2011, 12:58 PM
It works both ways. If the utilities costs go down such as a dive in fuel prices then the rates will go down.

I've never heard of utility rates going down.

2bikemike
08-23-2011, 01:34 PM
I've never heard of utility rates going down.

PUC REDUCES RATES FOR SDG&E RESULTING FROM
REFUNDS FROM GENERATORS


SAN FRANCISCO, September 8, 2005 - The California Public Utilities Commission (PUC) today lowered the electricity rates of San Diego Gas and Electric Company (SDG&E) by a total system average rate of 0.32 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh), or 2.4 percent.

The decrease results from the combined refund payments of $38 million from the Mirant electric generator settlement and the El Paso Natural Gas settlement. Rates are reduced for all consumption not subject to Assembly Bill (AB) 1X rate caps.

The reduction amortizes a $50.3 million overcollection in the utility's Energy Resource Recovery Account (ERRA) and will be amortized over a 12-month period. SDG&E's ERRA is subject to a trigger mechanism that requires the filing of an application at any time that the recorded monthly balance (undercollection or overcollection) exceeds a 4 percent trigger point. The trigger mechanism considers the relationship between the ERRA balance and the prior year's electric revenues. SDG&E is required to file an application with the Commission when the ERRA balance reaches 4 percent of the prior year's recorded electric revenues. The application must include a projected account balance in 60 days or more from the date of filing, depending upon when the balance will reach a 5 percent threshold, propose an amortization period for the 5 percent of not less than 90 days, and include a proposed allocation of the over-and-under collection among customers for rate adjustment based on existing allocation methodology recognized by the Commission.

The recorded balance in SDG&E's ERRA at April 30, 2005, was a $7.9 million overcollection. In May 2005, SDG&E received combined refund payments of $38 million from the Mirant electric generator settlement and the El Paso Natural Gas settlement that were credited to the ERRA. As a result of the refunds, the recorded balance in the ERRA at May 31, 2005, increased to a $50.3 million overcollection, or 11.5 percent of the prior year's electric revenue, exceeding the 4 percent trigger point.

For more information on the PUC, please visit www.cpuc.ca.gov.

Now you have! Utilitities by law can only make x amount of profit. Their Profit is regulated by the PUC. Costs go up prices go up. In the above case they got a chunk of money in a settlement that triggered a reduction in rates.

2bikemike
08-23-2011, 01:39 PM
Another example from KCPL. BTW here is a good article that addresses this very thing.

http://www.kcpl.com/cep/faqs6.html

When was the last KCP&L rate increase?

Prior to the 2007 rate increase, KCP&L has not had a rate increase since 1988, and has actually had several rate decreases in recent years. In fact, projected increases over the lifetime of the plan will actually bring overall rates back to 1980s levels.

orange
08-23-2011, 01:57 PM
... overcollection ... Utilitities by law can only make x amount of profit. Their Profit is regulated by the PUC.

Kenyan Muslim Socialist Anti-Christ! :cuss:

cookster50
08-23-2011, 02:35 PM
Hmm, I've only seen my rates go up, but of course, compared to some of you I'm just a young whipper snapper, so what do I know?

2bikemike
08-23-2011, 06:48 PM
And in other news;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44243706/ns/politics-white_house/

White House: Ax rules to save businesses cash
By JULIE PACE

updated 8/23/2011 1:01:58 PM ET 2011-08-23T17:01:58
Print Font: +-WASHINGTON ó The Obama administration revealed plans Tuesday to cut or roll back hundreds of federal regulations, saying it hoped to save businesses $10 billion and spur job growth.

Calcountry
08-23-2011, 07:34 PM
When the time comes, just give me the blue pill.