PDA

View Full Version : General Politics So when we say Bachmann is bat**** crazy, this is part of what we mean


Amnorix
08-29-2011, 08:33 AM
Just figured I'd mention it.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/08/michele-bachmann-hurricane-irene-message-from-god-/1?loc=interstitialskip

I don't know how much God has to do to get the attention of the politicians. We've had an earthquake; we've had a hurricane. He said, 'Are you going to start listening to me here?' Listen to the American people because the American people are roaring right now. They know government is on a morbid obesity diet and we've got to rein in the spending.


So, according to Bachmann, God killed 21 innocent Americans because he's unhappy about the federal deficit and debt. Or something... And this is, in theory, a legitimate contender for the Republican nomination.

:facepalm:

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 08:35 AM
Just incredibly stupid.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 08:35 AM
At least she didn't blame the gays I suppose.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 08:37 AM
According to Christian teaching, they couldn't be innocent.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 08:38 AM
It's possible God doesn't like the fact that she was an IRS enforcer trying to tell us what God is saying.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 08:39 AM
According to Christian teaching, they couldn't be innocent.

According to Jesus there are NONE good, lest some of us think too highly of ourselves.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 08:39 AM
According to Christian teaching, they couldn't be innocent.

The 21 that died you mean? Where do you get that from? The Book of Job pretty clearly shows that God has no qualms about allowing the innocent to suffer. Or in Job's case, taking a slightly more active role in the process.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 08:41 AM
It's possible God doesn't like the fact that she was an IRS enforcer trying to tell us what God is saying.

Wasn't it God who told her to become an IRS lawyer? Cmon, God. Make up your mind.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 08:44 AM
The 21 that died you mean? Where do you get that from? The Book of Job pretty clearly shows that God has no qualms about allowing the innocent to suffer. Or in Job's case, taking a slightly more active role in the process.

No one is innocent. Everyone is a sinner.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 08:46 AM
No one is innocent. Everyone is a sinner.

Despite this, do you find it plausible that God sent us a hurricane and earthquake because of the debt levels?

Dave Lane
08-29-2011, 08:51 AM
Despite this, do you find it plausible that God sent us a hurricane and earthquake because of the debt levels?

I think there is no question. You know he's been a busy guy again, after taking the 70s and 80s off

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 08:51 AM
Despite this, do you find it plausible that God sent us a hurricane and earthquake because of the debt levels?

It's plausible he sent them for our many failings, mainly failure to get on our knees and recognize him as our Lord and turn away from Evil. What I don't need is Bachmann acting like she knows what God wants, since her actions seem to contradict as such.

Dave Lane
08-29-2011, 08:52 AM
Oh and I wholly endorse Bachmann for president, amen :)

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 08:52 AM
I think there is no question. You know he's been a busy guy again, after taking the 70s and 80s off

ROFL

Dave Lane
08-29-2011, 08:53 AM
It's plausible he sent them for our many failings, mainly failure to get on our knees and recognize him as our Lord and turn away from Evil. What I don't need is Bachmann acting like she knows what God wants, since her actions seem to contradict as such.

And he cares about football. ALOT.

Lots of people have told me so.

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 08:54 AM
Crazy yes. Not more crazy than the claim Bush made hurricanes hit towns full of black folk.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 08:55 AM
Crazy yes. Not more crazy than the claim Bush made hurricanes hit towns full of black folk.

Who made that claim?

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 09:05 AM
Who made that claim?


And were they a serious candidate for President. I mean, if Bachmann was a random nutjob, I wouldn't care one bit what she had to say. But she's not a random nutjob...

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 09:07 AM
And were they a serious candidate for President. I mean, if Bachmann was a random nutjob, I wouldn't care one bit what she had to say. But she's not a random nutjob...

Hillary even alluded to Bush policies on environment causing disasters like Katrina. Guess she wasn't a serious contender.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 09:08 AM
Hillary even alluded to Bush policies on environment causing disasters like Katrina. Guess she wasn't a serious contender.

Hillary Clinton said that Bush made hurricanes hit towns full of black people?

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 09:09 AM
Hillary Clinton said that Bush made hurricanes hit towns full of black people?

No. Kookie people said that. Hillary alluded to Bush Environmental policy as a cause of Katrina.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 09:14 AM
No. Kookie people said that. Hillary alluded to Bush Environmental policy as a cause of Katrina.

Back to Amnorix. A Republican candidate for leader of the United States of America matching the rhetoric of 'kookie' people is a cause of concern.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 09:17 AM
No one is innocent. Everyone is a sinner.

Well yeah. However, God usually only brings the hammer of retribution down on the really bad sinners. The nominal sinners just get hit with collateral damage. Or on rare occasions get tested when God brags about them to the Devil.

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 09:25 AM
Back to Amnorix. A Republican candidate for leader of the United States of America matching the rhetoric of 'kookie' people is a cause of concern.


Why?....Do you feel she has a real opportunity to win?

Are you that paranoid that people may have crazy ideas? Are her ideas crazy because you dont agree with them?

Consider the many "kookie" ideas that have been part of discussion for years at high levels of government....why? Cause its people who have jobs in government and sometimes they slip past.

This is much ado about nothing. But it does take the focus off real things that matter.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 09:30 AM
Why?....Do you feel she has a real opportunity to win?

Yes, I do. She is one of the top three candidates, with Perry and Romney. Perhaps she is nominated for vice-president.

Are you that paranoid that people may have crazy ideas? Are her ideas crazy because you dont agree with them?

Paranoid? No. Concerned? Yes. Why not be? Unlike many liberals, I don't fear Bachmann will establish an American theocracy over the country. I am concerned that her mouth moves 4x faster than her brain thinks.

Is this idea crazy because I don't agree with it? No, it is just stupid.

Consider the many "kookie" ideas that have been part of discussion for years at high levels of government....why? Cause its people who have jobs in government and sometimes they slip past.

This is much ado about nothing. But it does take the focus off real things that matter.

Yes? Like Uncle Omar? Like a picture of an Obama voter in a dunce cap?

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 09:36 AM
Why?....Do you feel she has a real opportunity to win?

Are you that paranoid that people may have crazy ideas? Are her ideas crazy because you dont agree with them?

Consider the many "kookie" ideas that have been part of discussion for years at high levels of government....why? Cause its people who have jobs in government and sometimes they slip past.

This is much ado about nothing. But it does take the focus off real things that matter.


She won the Iowa straw poll and seems to be a favorite of the Tea Party and conservatives who diametrically shifted the debate around the recent budget deal / debt ceiling limit increase.

I think she's bonkers, but I wouldn't ignore her. She could be, like Palin, a pretty face able to get the die-hards excited, and therefore a good VP candidate and then "a heartbeat away", as it were.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 10:07 AM
Just figured I'd mention it.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/08/michele-bachmann-hurricane-irene-message-from-god-/1?loc=interstitialskip




So, according to Bachmann, God killed 21 innocent Americans because he's unhappy about the federal deficit and debt. Or something... And this is, in theory, a legitimate contender for the Republican nomination.

:facepalm:

Dammit Amnorix, I was about to post this in the "Life According to Ms. Michele" thread.

But this works too. ROFL

mlyonsd
08-29-2011, 10:07 AM
That is bat**** crazy.

Donger
08-29-2011, 10:11 AM
This was apparently an attempt at humor:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/08/29/exp.bachmann.irene.joke.cnn?hpt=hp_t2

Frankie
08-29-2011, 10:13 AM
It's plausible he sent them for our many failings, mainly failure to get on our knees and recognize him as our Lord and turn away from Evil. What I don't need is Bachmann acting like she knows what God wants, since her actions seem to contradict as such.

DUDE!!!

She TALKS to God. The problem is God seems to 'ANSWER BACK.'

God was the one who TOLD her to marry the effy guy and totally obey him. She told us this herself.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 10:15 AM
According to Christian teaching, they couldn't be innocent.

I assume he spared non-Christians then.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 10:18 AM
And he cares about football. ALOT.

Only the winning teams. I know this because only the winning players thank him after the game. The losing players' prayers are always ignored.

SNR
08-29-2011, 10:44 AM
I really have no patience for Christians who believe in deuteronomic crap like this. Fuck Bachmann.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 10:45 AM
So, according to Bachmann, God killed 21 innocent Americans because he's unhappy about the federal deficit and debt. Or something... And this is, in theory, a legitimate contender for the Republican nomination.



I don't see where she said "God killed innocent Americans" anywhere in that article. You altered her words to worsen to that when you extrapolated that on your own. Again, another strawman you chronically rely on.

I can understand how an atheist does not believe in divine interventions but that doesn't make someone bat shit crazy either. Don't forget people though atheists were bat shit crazy at one time. Her religious rhetoric is not that important to the main point about the obesity of the federal govt. :facepalm:

Brock
08-29-2011, 10:48 AM
She's basically agreeing with Fred Phelps. Told ya so.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 10:49 AM
I don't see where she said God killed innocent Americans anywhere in that article. You altered her words to worsen to that when you extrapolated that on your own. Again, another strawman you chronically rely on. :facepalm:

I can understand how an atheist does not believe in divine interventions but that doesn't make someone bat shit crazy either. It's also Don't forget people though athesits were bat shit crazy at one time. This not that important to the main point about the obesity of the federal govt. It's just couched in religious rhetoric.

I think the point is that it's a bit looney to claim God sends us hurricanes because our finances aren't in order. I don't see that as any different logically than claiming God sending us hurricanes because of gay people or prostitution or drugs or whatever it is the person making the claim wants to demonize.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 10:50 AM
She's basically agreeing with Fred Phelps. Told ya so.

Just substitute "gays" for "excessive spending."

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 10:51 AM
This was apparently an attempt at humor:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/08/29/exp.bachmann.irene.joke.cnn?hpt=hp_t2

Wow. That really drives home the importance of context. I take back my 'cause for concern' comment. A bad comic is no sin in holding the office of the presidency.

SNR
08-29-2011, 10:52 AM
Wow. That really drives home the importance of context. I take back my 'cause for concern' comment. A bad comic is no sin in holding the office of the presidency.Yes it is. God hates bad comics, especially those who hold political power. He is an angry God and he will smiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite THEEEEEUH!

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 10:53 AM
I think the point is that it's a bit looney to claim God sends us hurricanes because our finances aren't in order. I don't see that as any different logically than claiming God sending us hurricanes because of gay people or prostitution or drugs or whatever it is the person making the claim wants to demonize.

I don't see it as loony. I see it as religious. Religions are based on belief in the supernatural including divine interventions to punish the world at times like Noah's Ark in the Bible or animal sacrifices to appease gods or gods being angry. It's harmless either way. Starting a war based on theology, such as end times prophesy, where people die is what I call crazy because one is unable to tell right from wrong.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 11:01 AM
Wow. That really drives home the importance of context. I take back my 'cause for concern' comment. A bad comic is no sin in holding the office of the presidency.

Trivializing and joking about 21 people's death is no less crazy.

evenfall
08-29-2011, 11:02 AM
Hopefully she continues with the gaffes and has to drop out soon.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 11:05 AM
I don't see it as loony. I see it as religious. Religions are based on belief in the supernatural including divine interventions to punish the world at times like Noah's Ark in the Bible or animal sacrifices to appease gods or gods being angry. It's harmless either way. Starting a war based on theology, such as end times prophesy, where people die is what I call crazy because one is unable to tell right from wrong.

There is no religious justification for claiming God sent a hurricane to "bless us" (in the words of Glenn Beck) because he dislikes our fiscal policy.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 11:07 AM
I don't see where she said "God killed innocent Americans" anywhere in that article. You altered her words to worsen to that when you extrapolated that on your own. Again, another strawman you chronically rely on.


She said this: I don't know how much God has to do to get the attention of the politicians. . . . we've had a hurricane. He said, 'Are you going to start listening to me here?'


21 people died in the Hurricane that she's talking about. While they may or may not have been innocent, I'll assume they were random and therefore likely innocent of anything deserving death by hurricane.

So yeah, she didn't say "God killed 21 people by hurricane because we didn't settle the debt crisis", it really does work out that way if you can, you know, add 2+2.

I realize that in your mind, two plus two only equals four if someone writes "2+2=4". Just saying "well, I've got two of these in this hand, and two more of 'em in that hand" doesn't mean he has four. It's just a strawman.

Her religious rhetoric is not that important to the main point about the obesity of the federal govt. :facepalm:


You're right, it's not. It is important to the issue of her qualifications to be President, however, which is what my OP was about. You'll note that my OP didn't say "there federal government isn't obese, not matter what Bat**** Bachmann says". No, it said Bachmann was bat****.

Your statement is just a strawman, which you chronically rely on.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 11:08 AM
I don't see it as loony. I see it as religious. Religions are based on belief in the supernatural including divine interventions to punish the world at times like Noah's Ark in the Bible or animal sacrifices to appease gods or gods being angry. It's harmless either way. Starting a war based on theology, such as end times prophesy, where people die is what I call crazy because one is unable to tell right from wrong.


For the record, I ain't voting for anyone who offers animal sacrifices either.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 11:16 AM
Despite this, do you find it plausible that God sent us a hurricane and earthquake because of the debt levels?

I'm not a believer so, no, I don't think it's plausible. If I were a believer, I'd realize that I can't really understand the mind of God well enough to judge plausibility. Afterall, relatively good people suffer horrible life experiences and deaths all the time (Dick Cheney's heart troubles and media crucifixion for example) and bad people live long and fruitful lives (e.g. Joe Stalin).

orange
08-29-2011, 11:19 AM
21 people died in the Hurricane that she's talking about. While they may or may not have been innocent, I'll assume they were random and therefore likely innocent of anything deserving death by hurricane.


Most of them maybe, but I can't shed a tear for the idiot surfer.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 11:20 AM
I assume he spared non-Christians then.

What?

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm not a believer so, no, I don't think it's plausible. If I were a believer, I'd realize that I can't really understand the mind of God well enough to judge plausibility.

Sure you can. Judging plausibility doesn't mean you say you know the mind of God, just that from what we think we know, such and such is unlikely.

If we didn't judge that, us Christians would be standing around thinking, "Gee, maybe God did tell Olamuba Osarifif to blow up the people on the bus."

blaise
08-29-2011, 11:53 AM
Imagine how embarrassing it would be for Obama if he lost to her.

RINGLEADER
08-29-2011, 11:53 AM
I'm so happy she's doing it now before 1/500th of the US (in Iowa) decides to nominate her for president.

There is no way I could ever vote for her even if the alternative was the continued failure of Obama.

blaise
08-29-2011, 11:54 AM
If it was her or Obama I probably wouldn't bother voting.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 11:56 AM
Most of them maybe, but I can't shed a tear for the idiot surfer.


I didn't hear the details of who died, except one was a kid or something. Yes, if someone is out there surfing, they're running stupid risks and I can't feel too badly for him, though I feel badly for his family that he stupidly left to grieve...

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 11:57 AM
Imagine how embarrassing it would be for the United States if Obama lost to her.


FYP

blaise
08-29-2011, 12:00 PM
If I was Obama I'd be happy to lose, to be honest. Then he can travel around and do TV shows and write books.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 12:03 PM
If I was Obama I'd be happy to lose, to be honest. Then he can travel around and do TV shows and write books.


I honestly believe that wanting to be President is kinda bat**** crazy too...

Earthling
08-29-2011, 12:05 PM
I honestly believe that wanting to be President is kinda bat**** crazy too...

I can understand the attraction. It use to be one of those few things that money can't buy.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 12:09 PM
I'm not a believer so, no, I don't think it's plausible. If I were a believer, I'd realize that I can't really understand the mind of God well enough to judge plausibility.
Since you keep defending this crazy woman, we have to conclude that you will have no problems with having a POTUS with her finger on the proverbial button who makes decisions based on visions she "receives from God." No?

Afterall, relatively good people suffer horrible life experiences and deaths all the time (Dick Cheney's heart troubles and media crucifixion for example) and bad people live long and fruitful lives (e.g. Joe Stalin).

:facepalm:

Mr. Kotter
08-29-2011, 12:11 PM
:spock:

Holy crap!!!

LMAO

Frankie
08-29-2011, 12:11 PM
What?

Well, they didn't believe they were born sinners.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 12:11 PM
Imagine how embarrassing it would be for Obama if he lost to her.

That WOULD BE embarrassing. :eek:

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 12:12 PM
I can understand the attraction. It use to be one of those few things that money can't buy.


President Buchanan wasn't good for much, but he had one great quote. To President Lincoln (or about him, can't remember which):

"If you are as happy in entering the White House as I am in leaving it, then you are a happy man indeed."

patteeu
08-29-2011, 12:16 PM
Sure you can. Judging plausibility doesn't mean you say you know the mind of God, just that from what we think we know, such and such is unlikely.

If we didn't judge that, us Christians would be standing around thinking, "Gee, maybe God did tell Olamuba Osarifif to blow up the people on the bus."

I don't know who Olamuba Osarifif is, but I don't know why I should think that your beliefs (whatever they are) are any more plausible than that.

blaise
08-29-2011, 12:19 PM
Has anyone here ever thought, "Oh good, a Mr. Kotter post. Let's see what he has to say."

patteeu
08-29-2011, 12:20 PM
Since you keep defending this crazy woman, we have to conclude that you will have no problems with having a POTUS with her finger on the proverbial button who makes decisions based on visions she "receives from God." No?

I doubt that Bachmann will be my candidate, but if she's nominated, I'll vote for her.

I don't have a problem with a religious person being POTUS, but I have no particular interest in the fact that they think their ideas come from God. I'm just interested in what those ideas are.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 12:21 PM
Has anyone here ever thought, "Oh good, a Mr. Kotter post. Let's see what he has to say."

Not until I just read your post and then I suddenly had an urge to find out what he said to make you post this. As you probably already know, I was underwhelmed.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 12:22 PM
Well, they didn't believe they were born sinners.

Why would that have anything to do with it? If they believe in the wrong God to begin with, there's no reason to think anything else they believe is right.

Earthling
08-29-2011, 12:26 PM
President Buchanan wasn't good for much, but he had one great quote. To President Lincoln (or about him, can't remember which):

"If you are as happy in entering the White House as I am in leaving it, then you are a happy man indeed."

Well put.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Why would that have anything to do with it? If they believe in the wrong God to begin with, there's no reason to think anything else they believe is right.

Let me repeat myself: :facepalm:

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:31 PM
She said this:


21 people died in the Hurricane that she's talking about. While they may or may not have been innocent, I'll assume they were random and therefore likely innocent of anything deserving death by hurricane.

So yeah, she didn't say "God killed 21 people by hurricane because we didn't settle the debt crisis", it really does work out that way if you can, you know, add 2+2.

I realize that in your mind, two plus two only equals four if someone writes "2+2=4". Just saying "well, I've got two of these in this hand, and two more of 'em in that hand" doesn't mean he has four. It's just a strawman.




You're right, it's not. It is important to the issue of her qualifications to be President, however, which is what my OP was about. You'll note that my OP didn't say "there federal government isn't obese, not matter what Bat**** Bachmann says". No, it said Bachmann was bat****.

Your statement is just a strawman, which you chronically rely on.

Do you know that she was aware that people had died when she made this joke?

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 12:42 PM
Do you know that she was aware that people had died when she made this joke?


I haven't questioned her under oath on the topic or anything, no, but presumably she watches the news or reads the papers? :shrug:

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:43 PM
I haven't questioned her under oath on the topic or anything, no, but presumably she watches the news or reads the papers? :shrug:

Well, she said this Sunday morning, right? Had deaths been reported at that time?

Pitt Gorilla
08-29-2011, 12:44 PM
Do you know that she was aware that people had died when she made this joke?She may be crazy, but she's not dumb enough to think that nobody was going to be killed.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 12:49 PM
Well, she said this Sunday morning, right? Had deaths been reported at that time?

Reported 8 deaths by Sunday morning at 6:01 a.m.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Death-Tolling-Rising-From-Hurricane-Irene/icQ4aCYO6kKsi2IB8-LdJA.cspx?rss=30

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Reported 8 deaths by Sunday morning at 6:01 a.m.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Death-Tolling-Rising-From-Hurricane-Irene/icQ4aCYO6kKsi2IB8-LdJA.cspx?rss=30

Okay. But we don't know that she was aware of the reports.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Well, she said this Sunday morning, right? Had deaths been reported at that time?

It's a ****ing hurricane. Potential for loss of life is implied. As is the potential that people's homes might wash away never to be seen again.

In other words, not something you make jokes about as it's happening if you're trying to act presidential, and it damn sure isn't something you use as a method to pimp your agenda.

If Obama came out saying god sent us the hurricane because we need to continue spending money on Obamacare he be getting crucified (and rightly so) for it.

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:52 PM
She may be crazy, but she's not dumb enough to think that nobody was going to be killed.

Maybe. I think there's a large difference between knowing that people had died and just making a poorly-timed joke.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 12:52 PM
Okay. But we don't know that she was aware of the reports.

Do you know what a hurricane is Donger?

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:52 PM
Do you know what a hurricane is Donger?

Yes.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 12:53 PM
Yes.

Good. So then you realize how silly some of your posts defending Bachman here are.

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Good. So then you realize how silly some of your posts defending Bachman here are.

No, not really. You are aware that hurricanes haven't always caused deaths, right?

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Okay. But we don't know that she was aware of the reports.


Not much of a defense, really.

So the options here are:

1. she's ignorant, and has a very poor fact checking team

2. she's intentionally callous about the deaths of multiple people


Sure, she could've been speaking extemporaneously and somewhat thoughtlessly.

But honestly, joke or not, I'm not a big fan of anyone reaching for the "God's retribution" card in their political statements.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 12:59 PM
Okay. But we don't know that she was aware of the reports.I was really going to ignore this guy's idiotic self-declared "wisdom." But I can't help myself from repeating myself yet again: :facepalm:

Do you know what a hurricane is Donger?

ARE YOU KIDDING?! this guy knows EVERYTHING. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

Good. So then you realize how silly some of your posts defending Bachman here are.My friend, you just managed two gross understatements in one sentence, "Silly" and "some."

:)

Donger
08-29-2011, 12:59 PM
Not much of a defense, really.

So the options here are:

1. she's ignorant, and has a very poor fact checking team

2. she's intentionally callous about the deaths of multiple people


Sure, she could've been speaking extemporaneously and somewhat thoughtlessly.

But honestly, joke or not, I'm not a big fan of anyone reaching for the "God's retribution" card in their political statements.

I would imagine it is #1 and yes, clearly thoughtless.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 01:01 PM
No, not really. You are aware that hurricanes haven't always caused deaths, right?

:facepalm:

It's a natural fucking disaster. Even if it's possible that people not die, it might not be the best thing to be joking around about if you're trying to act like a president. That this very simple concept seems to elude you mystifies me.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 01:01 PM
Not much of a defense, really.

So the options here are:

1. she's ignorant, and has a very poor fact checking team

2. she's intentionally callous about the deaths of multiple people

3. she was trying to disguise a deep crazy belief system as a joke while still passing on "the message."

Donger
08-29-2011, 01:01 PM
:facepalm:

It's a natural ****ing disaster. Even if it's possible that people not die, it might not be the best thing to be joking around about if you're trying to act like a president. That this very simple concept seems to elude you mystifies me.

It doesn't elude me.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 01:02 PM
It doesn't elude me.

Your posts in this thread suggest otherwise.

Donger
08-29-2011, 01:03 PM
Your posts in this thread suggest otherwise.

Which one(s)?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 01:04 PM
Which one(s)?
These:

Do you know that she was aware that people had died when she made this joke?

Well, she said this Sunday morning, right? Had deaths been reported at that time?

Okay. But we don't know that she was aware of the reports.

Maybe. I think there's a large difference between knowing that people had died and just making a poorly-timed joke.

No, not really. You are aware that hurricanes haven't always caused deaths, right?

Donger
08-29-2011, 01:06 PM
These:

I see no mention how wise I thought her making this joke was in those, until I agreed with Amno.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 01:20 PM
I see no mention how wise I thought her making this joke was in those, until I agreed with Amno.

:banghead:

You made about 5 posts offering excuses for her because she might not have known if anyone died or not. It was pointed out to you that we're talking about a hurricane where the potential for loss of life is implied, as is the potential that people might lose everything they have. You then claimed to know what a hurricane is (which by proxy would indicate you understood that the loss of life and property is implied). When asked if you then understood why your defense was silly, you then pointed out that it might have been a possibilty that no one died.

Which at that point is when I began facepalming.

Donger
08-29-2011, 01:21 PM
:banghead:

You made about 5 posts offering excuses for her because she might not have known if anyone died or not. It was pointed out to you that we're talking about a hurricane where the potential for loss of life is implied, as is the potential that people might lose everything they have. You then claimed to know what a hurricane is (which by proxy would indicate you understood that the loss of life and property is implied). When asked if you then understood why your defense was silly, you then pointed out that it might have been a possibilty that no one died.

Which at that point is when I began facepalming.

Correct, and until I agreed with Amno, I hadn't mentioned whether or not I thought this was a wise joke or not.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 01:27 PM
Correct, and until I agreed with Amno, I hadn't mentioned whether or not I thought this was a wise joke or not.

So the 5 or 6 posts you made offering excuses for her was what? Idle conversation?

Donger
08-29-2011, 01:31 PM
So the 5 or 6 posts you made offering excuses for her was what? Idle conversation?

A possible alternative explanation to the people who seem to think that she was aware of the deaths and said this anyway.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 01:45 PM
There is no religious justification for claiming God sent a hurricane to "bless us" (in the words of Glenn Beck) because he dislikes our fiscal policy.

That's a matter of one's beliefs. IOW opinion.

JonesCrusher
08-29-2011, 01:52 PM
Sometimes you can become fearful, you can become vain, sometimes you can seek power for power’s sake. Pray that Bachman can be an instrument of God.

Maybe she is just pandering and laying it on thick to fire up some christian voters

patteeu
08-29-2011, 01:58 PM
It's ridiculous to stretch this criticism to the point where a joke made about a natural disaster that might have killed people is a sign that Bachmann is unfit to lead the country. You guys are hilarious. I see nothing wrong with her joke at all. 21 people dead is really bad for those 21 people and their families, but for the rest of us it's trivial. How many of you critics have made a joke about Catholic Priests and pedophilia despite how serious the situation is to all of those who might have been harmed by molestation?

Let's face it. You were all over Bachmann because you thought she was serious about God sending the hurricane and then when that criticism went south you just fell back to the it's-such-bad-taste-she's-still-crazy argument without stopping to think about how ridiculous it would make you look.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 02:05 PM
It's ridiculous to stretch this criticism to the point where a joke made about a natural disaster that might have killed people is a sign that Bachmann is unfit to lead the country. You guys are hilarious. I see nothing wrong with her joke at all. 21 people dead is really bad for those 21 people and their families, but for the rest of us it's trivial. How many of you critics have made a joke about Catholic Priests and pedophilia despite how serious the situation is to all of those who might have been harmed by molestation?

Let's face it. You were all over Bachmann because you thought she was serious about God sending the hurricane and then when that criticism went south you just fell back to the it's-such-bad-taste-she's-still-crazy argument without stopping to think about how ridiculous it would make you look.

Sure Pat. I'm sure the right wing contingent on this board would have looked the other way if Obama make a bad joke about how natural disasters were a sign from God that he wants us to adopt his policies.

:rolleyes:

Calcountry
08-29-2011, 02:06 PM
And were they a serious candidate for President. I mean, if Bachmann was a random nutjob, I wouldn't care one bit what she had to say. But she's not a random nutjob...I would like to know how MB's embellishments are any more or less ridiculous than the dipshit in the white house? Hope, and Change? What hope? What change? Never got asked, and the ashat was free to implement whatever change he wanted, only that was beneath him. He delegated that trivial dirty work to Nancy and Harry and we got Porkulous and Obamacare. That's a BFD right there man. Now, if only he would get to work on halting the raise of the levels of the ocean.

Talk about nutjobs, Hussein believes his own hype.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 02:07 PM
It's ridiculous to stretch this criticism to the point where a joke made about a natural disaster that might have killed people is a sign that Bachmann is unfit to lead the country. You guys are hilarious. I see nothing wrong with her joke at all. 21 people dead is really bad for those 21 people and their families, but for the rest of us it's trivial. How many of you critics have made a joke about Catholic Priests and pedophilia despite how serious the situation is to all of those who might have been harmed by molestation?

Let's face it. You were all over Bachmann because you thought she was serious about God sending the hurricane and then when that criticism went south you just fell back to the it's-such-bad-taste-she's-still-crazy argument without stopping to think about how ridiculous it would make you look.


I freely admit I thought she was serious. I haven't watched the video, so I don't know if it was presented as a joke or half-joke, in a very obvious way, or if she's just now backpedaling after criticism. Anyway, I'll assume it was a joke.

I don't think jokes that are, frankly, callous and insensitive make her crazy. I think they make her, umm, callous and insensitive. And that joking about such a thing isn't exactly the kind of thing you want the leader of the country doing. It doesn't render her unfit for the Presidency. Rarely does one single act do anything of the kind. It's just fodder.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Sure Pat. I'm sure the right wing contingent on this board would have looked the other way if Obama make a bad joke about how natural disasters were a sign from God that he wants us to adopt his policies.

:rolleyes:


+1

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 02:08 PM
I would like to know how MB's embellishments are any more or less ridiculous than the dipshit in the white house? Hope, and Change? What hope? What change? Never got asked, and the ashat was free to implement whatever change he wanted, only that was beneath him. He delegated that trivial dirty work to Nancy and Harry and we got Porkulous and Obamacare. That's a BFD right there man. Now, if only he would get to work on halting the raise of the levels of the ocean.

Talk about nutjobs, Hussein believes his own hype.


Way to try to change the subject. :thumb:

whoman69
08-29-2011, 02:10 PM
If its a joke, I don't get it. Aren't jokes supposed to be funny or ironic or...anything?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 02:11 PM
That's a matter of one's beliefs. IOW opinion.
Well first off, I should have said "Christian" because that's the specific religion we're talking about here.

And secondly, there is nothing in the Christian Bible to suggest God is going to send hurricanes as a sign he's not happy with our fiscal policy. You'd have a far easier time justifying Fred Phelps than you would this. There is at least some kind of precedent for what he's claiming.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 02:11 PM
Sure Pat. I'm sure the right wing contingent on this board would have looked the other way if Obama make a bad joke about how natural disasters were a sign from God that he wants us to adopt his policies.

:rolleyes:

This is kind of like Obama's "blame Bush" tactic. You may or may not be right, but that doesn't change how silly this criticism of Bachmann is.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 02:16 PM
I freely admit I thought she was serious. I haven't watched the video, so I don't know if it was presented as a joke or half-joke, in a very obvious way, or if she's just now backpedaling after criticism. Anyway, I'll assume it was a joke.

I don't think jokes that are, frankly, callous and insensitive make her crazy. I think they make her, umm, callous and insensitive. And that joking about such a thing isn't exactly the kind of thing you want the leader of the country doing. It doesn't render her unfit for the Presidency. Rarely does one single act do anything of the kind. It's just fodder.

It wasn't callous or insensitive. That's just something people in this thread made up in order to prop up their failing criticism.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 02:21 PM
This is kind of like Obama's "blame Bush" tactic. You may or may not be right, but that doesn't change how silly this criticism of Bachmann is.

Pointing out the obvious (it might not be a good idea to make public jokes about natural disasters if you're running to be president) is now silly critisism?

I never said that it would outright disqualify her for running (I have other reasons I wouldn't vote for her far more important than this) however that doesn't change that anyone with an ounce of common sense would know it's not a good idea to make this kind of joke. It's just not.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Well first off, I should have said "Christian" because that's the specific religion we're talking about here.

And secondly, there is nothing in the Christian Bible to suggest God is going to send hurricanes as a sign he's not happy with our fiscal policy.
Well I didn't exactly say that either. It was the general idea of an angry god being part of some religions. Also, I do not think history supports Bible-only Christianity.

But since you mentioned it, which Bible? Douay Rheims or King James? And which denomination out of 38000? 'Cause I can assure you some sects say the Bible continues and does not end with the paper-bound book.

You'd have a far easier time justifying Fred Phelps than you would this. There is at least some kind of precedent for what he's claiming.

It has similarities but I would say what Phelps Pholks do is inconsiderate and insulting to grieving families. So I see that as socially harmful—not what Michelle did. Her statement was harmless. It's just being petty by the left who do not like Evangelicals. They're just judging her using their scale of values. Look at the size of the thread already...that's what I consider crazy with all the problems this country has right now.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Well I didn't exactly say that either. It was the general idea of an angry god being part of some religions. Also, I do not think history supports Bible-only Christianity.

But since you mentioned it, which Bible? Douay Rheims or King James? And which denomination out of 38000? 'Cause I can assure you some sects say the Bible continues and does not end with the paper-bound book.
I'll tell you what, if you can find a version of the bible that indicates that God Sends hurricanes because he dislikes a countries fiscal policy, I will fully admit I was wrong.

It has similarities but I would say what Phelps Pholks do is inconsiderate and insulting to grieving families. So I see that as socially harmful—not what Michelle did. Her statement was harmless. Just so you know, I wasn't talking about the ramifications of each act. I wasn't trying to say that what Bachman did here was on the same level of the Fred Phelps people. Just the logic (or I suppose rather the religious backing) of each act. There is a precedent for God dropping some wrath on cities for their love of vice. Not so much because their checkbook didn't balance.

It's just being petty by the left who do not like Evangelicals. They're just judging her using their scale of values.Whatever else you might think of me, I would hardly consider myself left wing. My issue is simple. If she's joking, it's in bad taste and shows a lack of judgement. If she's serious, then I take issue with invoking the name of God to convince people he's on your side of a political issue and using a natural disaster as evidence of such.

I've seen that tactic used by the powers that be before in the pages of history, and it rarely turns out positively.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 02:49 PM
I'll tell you what, if you can find a version of the bible that indicates that God Sends hurricanes because he dislikes a countries fiscal policy, I will fully admit I was wrong.

Let me clarify: You're being too literal about what I said regarding the "fiscal" policy part versus how anyone can know that a God or any god can be angered. Nor was my point about it being in the Bible, as not all Christianity subscribes to that. So it's not a matter of being right or being wrong it's seeing it from a certain pov. Other than that, it's not worth arguing about at great length.

Also I know you're not left wing. I was referring to the left due to the original poster.

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 02:54 PM
Is it that difficult for those who do not believe in God to accept that those who do see such things as earthquakes, hurricanes, rainstorms, mountains, the earth, stars, and such as Gods work?

I am always amazed at how those who choose not to believe in God have a burning need to prove everyone else wrong.

Frankie
08-29-2011, 02:58 PM
21 people dead is really bad for those 21 people and their families, but for the rest of us it's trivial.

Spoken like a true compassionate conservative.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Is it that difficult for those who do not believe in God to accept that those who do see such things as earthquakes, hurricanes, rainstorms, mountains, the earth, stars, and such as Gods work?

I am always amazed at how those who choose not to believe in God have a burning need to prove everyone else wrong.

You mean "crazy" instead of wrong right?

Either way, just for believing in the supernatural.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 02:59 PM
...however that doesn't change that anyone with an ounce of common sense would know it's not a good idea to make this kind of joke. It's just not.

I think you've convinced yourself that you believe this at the moment, but I don't think you really do.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Spoken like a true compassionate conservative.

At least I don't decide whether it's important or trivial on the basis of whether or not the victims were conservatives or liberals. The CDC says that an average of about 10 people die every day in accidental, non-boating drownings. That average covers the entire year so the average in the summer is most likely much higher than that. 21 deaths isn't too notable given that we average double digit deaths from just one type of related cause of death.

BTW, jokes about bad swimmers should be avoided around our sensitive, bad-taste-police posters like Jaric. Don't get me started on traffic fatality statistics and the way some of our posters would frown on a joke about bad drivers.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Let me clarify: You're being too literal about what I said regarding the "fiscal" policy part versus how anyone can know that a God or any god can be angered. Nor was my point about it being in the Bible, as not all Christianity subscribes to that. So it's not a matter of being right or being wrong it's seeing it from a certain pov. Other than that, it's not worth arguing about at great length.Well, if it's the old Testament God that's easy because everything seemed to piss him off.

:D

I get what you're saying though. That if there is a God and he gets pissed off, it's unlikely we will know with certaintly what exactly it is that pisses him off. I could in theory claim that light bulbs piss off the almighty because it infringes on his "let there be light!" territory. That doesn't make it so, but you can't prove it doesn't.

Which all stems from not being able to prove that "God" does not exist. If you can't even prove he exists, how can you prove what pisses him off?

However, that doesn't mean that a claim should be taken seriously when made simply because they cannot be proven false. If one were to review both scripture and generally accepted Christian teachings, you're going to have trouble linking God's wrath in the form of natural disasters to fiscal policy.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:07 PM
I think you've convinced yourself that you believe this at the moment, but I don't think you really do.

Any other personal insights you'd like to share with me about myself Pat?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Is it that difficult for those who do not believe in God to accept that those who do see such things as earthquakes, hurricanes, rainstorms, mountains, the earth, stars, and such as Gods work?

I am always amazed at how those who choose not to believe in God have a burning need to prove everyone else wrong.

Speaking only for myself, the issue isn't with claiming that the hurricane came from God, but rather claiming to know the motivation behind the almighty sending us the hurricane.

Which very convienantly happened to align with the one making the claims political beliefs.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 03:12 PM
Well, if it's the old Testament God that's easy because everything seemed to piss him off.

:D

I get what you're saying though. That if there is a God and he gets pissed off, it's unlikely we will know with certaintly what exactly it is that pisses him off. I could in theory claim that light bulbs piss off the almighty because it infringes on his "let there be light!" territory. That doesn't make it so, but you can't prove it doesn't.

Which all stems from not being able to prove that "God" does not exist. If you can't even prove he exists, how can you prove what pisses him off?

However, that doesn't mean that a claim should be taken seriously when made simply because they cannot be proven false. If one were to review both scripture and generally accepted Christian teachings, you're going to have trouble linking God's wrath in the form of natural disasters to fiscal policy.

The fiscal policy part was her own interpretation is how I see that. There's a lot of that in Christianity. I remember growing up onetime being in a lightening storm in a cottage one summer. My mom told me God was angry —hence the storm. I laid in bed all night wondering if he was mad at me...and started looking at what I might have done wrong. I was pretty bad that week and was wondering when the bolt would hit our cottage. So I said an Act of Contrition thinking I was gonna die. This way I would still get into Heaven. That's just applying one's religion in one's own way, which to me is much like what Bachmann may have been doing. It's allowed.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 03:13 PM
Any other personal insights you'd like to share with me about myself Pat?

I already did. You just retrenched from your original criticism because you didn't want to say you jumped the gun. Now you've convinced yourself that your new stake in the ground is solid even though it's not. It's human nature so don't sweat it.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:15 PM
The fiscal policy part was her own interpretation is how I see that. There's a lot of that in Christianity. I remember growing up onetime being in a lightening storm in a cottage one summer. My mom told me God was angry —hence the storm. I laid in bed all night wondering if he was mad at me...and started looking at what I might have done wrong. I was pretty bad that week and was wondering when the bolt would hit our cottage. So I said an Act of Contrition thinking I was gonna die. This way I would still get into Heaven. That's just applying one's religion in one's own way, which to me is much like what Bachmann may have been doing.

:eek:

Well finish the story! Did the lightening bolt get you?

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 03:16 PM
:eek:

Well finish the story! Did the lightening bolt get you?

No. I was amazed when I woke up alive the next morning—I kid you not. Pinch me stuff!
But it got some other place...and I thought those people were sinners because of it too! STFU

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 03:21 PM
It wasn't callous or insensitive. That's just something people in this thread made up in order to prop up their failing criticism.



Seriously? :spock: If it was a joke, then IMHO it's definitely callous and insensitive given that 21 people DIED.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 03:23 PM
Is it that difficult for those who do not believe in God to accept that those who do see such things as earthquakes, hurricanes, rainstorms, mountains, the earth, stars, and such as Gods work?

I am always amazed at how those who choose not to believe in God have a burning need to prove everyone else wrong.


Got nothing to do with proving religion right/wrong.

It has to do with suggesting that God sends hurricanes that kill 21 people due to our political establishment's inability to balance the federal budget. Or do you think God gives a rat's ass about our national deficit/debt?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
I already did. You just retrenched from your original criticism because you didn't want to say you jumped the gun. Now you've convinced yourself that your new stake in the ground is solid even though it's not. It's human nature so don't sweat it.

No Pat. Making "jokes" about hurricanes while they are still happening is in bad taste. Even moreso if the person making the joke is running for president.

I'm fairly certain I'm on solid ground in that respect

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
I don't know who Olamuba Osarifif is, but I don't know why I should think that your beliefs (whatever they are) are any more plausible than that.

Ah! Careful pat, this isn't about you. It was about whether Christians can find Bachmann's claims implausible. The answer is yes, they can.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
No. I was amazed when I woke up alive the next morning—I kid you not. Pinch me stuff!
But it got some other place...and I thought those people were sinners because of it too! STFU

Whew! I was worried for a second.

:D

mlyonsd
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
Got nothing to do with proving religion right/wrong.

It has to do with suggesting that God sends hurricanes that kill 21 people due to our political establishment's inability to balance the federal budget. Or do you think God gives a rat's ass about our national deficit/debt?I wonder if the number of abortions increases during recessions.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:27 PM
I wonder if the number of abortions increases during recessions.

That's just God's way of telling us he's angry about bubbles popping.

blaise
08-29-2011, 03:29 PM
I think her comments show more that she's not aware of her surroundings and the public climate than it shows she's "batshit crazy".

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
Got nothing to do with proving religion right/wrong.

It has to do with suggesting that God sends hurricanes that kill 21 people due to our political establishment's inability to balance the federal budget. Or do you think God gives a rat's ass about our national deficit/debt?


Im incapable of knowing what God thinks of the deficit. If you feel comfortable knowing what the almighty thinks then thats good for you.

I dont recall the exact quote but I dont seem to recall Bachman saying God killed 21 people to make a point about the budget. She says some odd things sometimes. But she says some things that are far from batty as well.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
I wonder if the number of abortions increases during recessions.


But the federal deficit/debt doesn't necessarily equate to the existence of a recession, a fact that surely God would know. We've had both booms and busts while the federal deficit is increasing.

Nor do I know if the answer to your question is yes, though I know that the birthrate is invariably lower during difficult economic times.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 03:38 PM
BTW, the answer as to whether recessions lead to increases in the abortion rate is, apparently "sometimes".

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html

mlyonsd
08-29-2011, 03:40 PM
But the federal deficit/debt doesn't necessarily equate to the existence of a recession, a fact that surely God would know. We've had both booms and busts while the federal deficit is increasing.

Nor do I know if the answer to your question is yes, though I know that the birthrate is invariably lower during difficult economic times.

Yeah I realized the difference between what she said and what I wrote after I posted it. I was really just messing around.

FWIW, the answer to my question though seems to be that they do rise during a recession.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/10/rise-in-abortions-during-recession-stalls-drop/

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:40 PM
Im incapable of knowing what God thinks of the deficit. If you feel comfortable knowing what the almighty thinks then thats good for you.

Actually, that is sort of the point here.

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 03:40 PM
DUDE!!!

She TALKS to God. The problem is God seems to 'ANSWER BACK.'

God was the one who TOLD her to marry the effy guy and totally obey him. She told us this herself.

I detect a hint of jealousy, due to the fact God doesn't answer you back. Although i could be a little off base here. Question should be who is answering her back?

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 03:40 PM
I dont recall the exact quote but I dont seem to recall Bachman saying God killed 21 people to make a point about the budget.

She didn't and that was pointed out to him that he used a strawman to alter her words to worsen them.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 03:44 PM
She didn't and that was pointed out to him that he used a strawman to alter her words to worsen them.

If the almighty did in fact send us the hurricane, wouldn't it be safe to assume he knew that it would kill "x" number of people?

I think that's a pretty safe logical leap to make if one is to believe the "all knowing/all-powerful" claims. So if God sent us the hurricane (which he knew would kill X number of people) because he's pissed we're in the red, it's safe to assume that God was willing to kill those people to make his point (otherwise, he wouldn't have sent the hurricane knowning what the outcome would be)

In other words, while that isn't how she phrased it, that is in effect what she's saying (if taken seriously)

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 03:50 PM
If the almighty did in fact send us the hurricane, wouldn't it be safe to assume he knew that it would kill "x" number of people?
No. Some hurricanes no one dies. Hurricane Juan is one example.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 04:13 PM
Im incapable of knowing what God thinks of the deficit. If you feel comfortable knowing what the almighty thinks then thats good for you.

I dont recall the exact quote but I dont seem to recall Bachman saying God killed 21 people to make a point about the budget. She says some odd things sometimes. But she says some things that are far from batty as well.

Sure. You don't need to be nutty 100% of the time to be a nut, after all.

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 04:14 PM
Yeah I realized the difference between what she said and what I wrote after I posted it. I was really just messing around.

FWIW, the answer to my question though seems to be that they do rise during a recession.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/10/rise-in-abortions-during-recession-stalls-drop/


Yes, during this recession. During the 2001'ish recession, however, they did not rise. See my prior post. Hence, the rate rises sometimes.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 04:15 PM
Seriously? :spock: If it was a joke, then IMHO it's definitely callous and insensitive given that 21 people DIED.

I realize you east-coasters think you just faced down an apocalypse, but the truth is it was a pretty mediocre hurricane. As tragic as those deaths were, they aren't the kind of national tragedy you seem to think they are. It's perfectly fine for people to make a generic joke about hurricanes during hurricane season despite the fact that there will almost certainly be casualties somewhere.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Ah! Careful pat, this isn't about you. It was about whether Christians can find Bachmann's claims implausible. The answer is yes, they can.

They can certainly form an opinion, but it seems to me that the question is whether or not it's reasonable for Christians to stand in judgment of the plausibility of their God's actions.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 04:22 PM
They can certainly form an opinion, but it seems to me that the question is whether or not it's reasonable for Christians to stand in judgment of the plausibility of their God's actions.

It seems reasonable to me. I mean, there's a track record of 2600 years of theology in Western civilization where scholars spend a lot of time and energy on whether some religious statement is right, wrong, likely, unlikely, unorthodox, heresy, blasphemy.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 04:25 PM
It seems reasonable to me. I mean, there's a track record of 2600 years of theology in Western civilization where scholars spend a lot of time and energy on whether some religious statement is right, wrong, likely, unlikely, unorthodox, heresy, blasphemy.

The various denominations must all agree then, right?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 04:31 PM
No. Some hurricanes no one dies. Hurricane Juan is one example.

No no, I'm saying that GOD would know. That's part of the all knowing part.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 04:32 PM
The various denominations must all agree then, right?

No, but I don't think they're necessarily unreasonable in disagreeing.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 04:36 PM
No no, I'm saying that GOD would know. That's part of the all knowing part.

If the almighty did in fact send us the hurricane, wouldn't it be safe to assume he knew that it would kill "x" number of people?

He'd also know there would be no deaths too. Still she didn't say anything about getting people killed.

patteeu
08-29-2011, 04:42 PM
No, but I don't think they're necessarily unreasonable in disagreeing.

Do we agree that some denominations of Christianity would find it plausible that God might use natural disasters to punish errant behavior? BTW, is it plausible that God used a flood to send a message to humans in Noah's era?

Jaric
08-29-2011, 04:44 PM
He'd also know there would be no deaths too. Still she didn't say anything about getting people killed.

You've lost me.

If God is all knowing, then he would know that the hurricane he allegedly sent us to tell us he isn't pleased with our accounting practices would kill 21 people. Because it did. I know that some other hurricanes don't result in casualties. But we aren't talking about those hurricanes. We're talking about the one that was sent because our financial house isn't in order (allegedly)

So yes, if you buy into the idea that God is all knowing/all powerful (a fairly commonly accepted idea amungst christians) then you have to assume if he sends a Hurricane that kills 21 people, he knew that the hurricane would kill 21 people before he sent it.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 04:51 PM
I already clarified I was commenting on the idea of a God/god being angry via weather ( not for any particular reason) but you keep arguing it as if that was what I said.

The fiscal part could be seen as stealing or corruption for all we know.

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Do we agree that some denominations of Christianity would find it plausible that God might use natural disasters to punish errant behavior? BTW, is it plausible that God used a flood to send a message to humans in Noah's era?

Sure some find it plausible. And fellow Christians can judge their findings. That's what I'm interested in -- judging people's beliefs. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I have to suspend any bit of skepticism I'm capable of.

HonestChieffan
08-29-2011, 05:05 PM
Sure some find it plausible. And fellow Christians can judge their findings. That's what I'm interested in -- judging people's beliefs. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I have to suspend any bit of skepticism I'm capable of.

You see yourself capable of judging someone elses beliefs?

patteeu
08-29-2011, 05:35 PM
Sure some find it plausible. And fellow Christians can judge their findings. That's what I'm interested in -- judging people's beliefs. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I have to suspend any bit of skepticism I'm capable of.

I just think "plausible" is the wrong word. Let's face it, you're pulling a Dave Lane against this particular brand of Christianity.

Brock
08-29-2011, 05:37 PM
I just think "plausible" is the wrong word. Let's face it, you're using your brain against this particular brand of Christianity.

fyp

KILLER_CLOWN
08-29-2011, 05:39 PM
Do we agree that some denominations of Christianity would find it plausible that God might use natural disasters to punish errant behavior? BTW, is it plausible that God used a flood to send a message to humans in Noah's era?

Yes and it's funny to see you arguing for a religious cause, there is some hope for you. ;)

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 06:14 PM
Yes and it's funny to see you arguing for a religious cause, there is some hope for you. ;)

I've seen him defend Christians and Christianity before. O.M.G. I'M defending pat? :spock:

Jenson71
08-29-2011, 06:20 PM
I just think "plausible" is the wrong word. Let's face it, you're pulling a Dave Lane against this particular brand of Christianity.

Dominican monks following Aristotle's philosophy used to travel weeks across Medieval Europe to argue against the beliefs of fellow Catholic monks who belonged to the Franciscan Order and based their theology on Plato. The University of Paris eventually banned Aristotle's philosophy teachings. Talk about pulling a "Dave Lane."

Jaric
08-29-2011, 06:55 PM
I already clarified I was commenting on the idea of a God/god being angry via weather ( not for any particular reason) but you keep arguing it as if that was what I said.

The fiscal part could be seen as stealing or corruption for all we know.I must not have been clear because I think you missed the point I was trying to make with that post. Let me try again. This, is the argument you claimed was a strawman:


So, according to Bachmann, God killed 21 innocent Americans because he's unhappy about the federal deficit and debt. Or something... And this is, in theory, a legitimate contender for the Republican nomination.
Now, you are correct in the fact that Bachmann never actually stated that God killed people to make the point that excessive spending is wrong.

However, if this is to be taken seriously, Bachmann does claim that God sent the Hurricane for that reason.

In order for what Amno posted to be a straw man, he has to intentionally misrepresent what Bachmann is saying in order to attack that argument, rather than the one she is making.

Now rewind back to the part where I was talking about God being all knowing and all powerful. If God is all knowing (which is again a pretty universal view among Christians) then he would know that by sending the Hurricane, that 21 people would die.

So we can assume that God knows if he sends this hurricane, that 21 people will die as a result. As he knows the outcome, if he decides to still send it, then the loss of life is obviously acceptable in his eyes to make his point. If his motivation for sending the hurricane is disapproval of our fiscal policy (which Bachmann claims it is) then it's entirely fair to say that Bachmann is saying that God felt 21 people needed to die to prove his point.

Now, it might not be the argument she intended on making when she said it, but that doesn't make it any less factual or logically correct to say what Amnorix said.

BucEyedPea
08-29-2011, 06:57 PM
Jaric this is just not that important to me. I told you it's not worth discussing at great length. Just agree to disagree. I mean it's an opinion that she's bat shit crazy for it.

Jaric
08-29-2011, 06:59 PM
Jaric this is just not that important to me. Just agree to disagree.

I won't agree to that.

:evil:

(jaric kids)

Amnorix
08-29-2011, 08:43 PM
I won't agree to that.

:evil:

(jaric kids)


:D

Truth is, BEP claims every argument she dislikes is either a strawman or projection. It's her magic talisman to make arguments she hates go away.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't care if she thinks Charles Manson is the Messiah as long as she understands the urgency with which we need to cut spending which is more than I can say for our current POS.

whoman69
08-30-2011, 11:08 AM
My take on the whole thing is it was not a joke, but her handlers in seeing that it went over like a lead balloon are saying it is. It shows bad judgement to make a joke about a disaster when you are trying to be taken seriously. It serves as fodder for those who already see her as an extremist in regard to religion that are making all of us who are religious look bad.

patteeu
08-30-2011, 11:15 AM
My take on the whole thing is it was not a joke, but her handlers in seeing that it went over like a lead balloon are saying it is. It shows bad judgement to make a joke about a disaster when you are trying to be taken seriously. It serves as fodder for those who already see her as an extremist in regard to religion that are making all of us who are religious look bad.

You can't be serious. Did you watch the video?

Frankie
08-30-2011, 11:29 AM
My take on the whole thing is it was not a joke, ...

After watching the CNN video I was accepting the explanation that it was a joke which, IMO, doesn't make the BS any better. But the more I watch the video and others the more I'm also back to the notion that she is just a religious nutjob and this was not meant as humor. Her delivery is about the same as always. She paints a bogus more-knowledgeable-than-though smile on her face and talks that way in most all of her speeches.