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RINGLEADER
08-31-2011, 08:47 PM
Cave man.

I thought it was funny.

petegz28
08-31-2011, 08:54 PM
Um, why?

HonestChieffan
08-31-2011, 08:55 PM
No greater collection of nutbags exists on the internetses

alnorth
08-31-2011, 08:59 PM
Um, why?

Probably because of his stunning degree of meekness, in many issues ready to surrender to the republicans and give them 90%+ of what they want at a drop of a hat. He doesn't get credit for any of this compromise of course, the GOP still paints him as some crazy wild-eyed leftist dictator as they quietly scoop up victories.

Makes you wonder how apoplectic they would be if Obama actually was a hard-ass the last 4 years.

petegz28
08-31-2011, 09:03 PM
Probably because of his stunning degree of meekness, in many issues ready to surrender to the republicans and give them 90%+ of what they want at a drop of a hat. He doesn't get credit for any of this compromise of course, the GOP still paints him as some crazy wild-eyed leftist dictator as they quietly scoop up victories.

Makes you wonder how apoplectic they would be if Obama actually was a hard-ass the last 4 years.

Um, we are talking about the same President who spent his first 1.5 years in office ramming down health care without 1 single Repub vote, correct? That kind of compromise?

Bewbies
08-31-2011, 09:53 PM
Makes you wonder how apoplectic they would be if Obama actually was a hard-ass the last 4 years.

LMAO

The elections over John.

The only thing that stopped him in his first 2 years were democrats. He didn't take any input from, or accept any suggestions from R's. The D's did damn well whatever they wanted. And when things didn't go their way they blamed the R's, who were absolutely and completely powerless.

LMAO

banyon
09-01-2011, 07:03 AM
Um, we are talking about the same President who spent his first 1.5 years in office ramming down health care without 1 single Repub vote, correct? That kind of compromise?

Um, the health care was a compromise bill. They went from universal single payer with no mandate to this hybrid free-market exchange with a mandate (based on republican ideas from 1993). Liberals did not want this health care bill. Progressive like me hate it, as it was literally authored by the insurance industry lobbyists.

alnorth
09-01-2011, 07:14 AM
Um, we are talking about the same President who spent his first 1.5 years in office ramming down health care without 1 single Repub vote, correct? That kind of compromise?

The same health care bill that enraged the left wing because he caved on single-payer and the public option? The same health care bill that many liberals thought was so watered-down that it shouldn't pass? Basically the same health care bill that the republicans dreamed up in response to clintoncare, that one?

Because that is NOT an example of Obama resolutely standing firm to defend a liberal agenda, at all. Obamacare is a very moderate compromise plan.

alnorth
09-01-2011, 07:15 AM
He didn't take any input from, or accept any suggestions from R's. The D's did damn well whatever they wanted.

:spock:

Bullcrap.

blaise
09-01-2011, 07:15 AM
And they'll still all vote for him.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2011, 07:19 AM
Whether the HC bill was corporatist or more like a socialist single-payer model—the fact remains it's a huge stepping stone toward more govt in health care. So even the corporatist model was still shoved down other's throats, which in itself is more govt involvement. Besides, it will inevitably lead to a govt system just as all the earlier patchwork socialist measures have done in the past when it fails to control costs. Building socialism one step at at time on the intentional wreckage of capitalism. Pure Fabianism.

alnorth
09-01-2011, 07:19 AM
And they'll still all vote for him.

Of course they will. Those that show up to vote, anyway.

The danger with angering your base, whether it is the right and conservatives or the left and liberals, is not that they will vote against you, but that you'll depress turnout.

petegz28
09-01-2011, 07:34 AM
Um, the health care was a compromise bill. They went from universal single payer with no mandate to this hybrid free-market exchange with a mandate (based on republican ideas from 1993). Liberals did not want this health care bill. Progressive like me hate it, as it was literally authored by the insurance industry lobbyists.

0 Repub votes

petegz28
09-01-2011, 07:34 AM
The same health care bill that enraged the left wing because he caved on single-payer and the public option? The same health care bill that many liberals thought was so watered-down that it shouldn't pass? Basically the same health care bill that the republicans dreamed up in response to clintoncare, that one?

Because that is NOT an example of Obama resolutely standing firm to defend a liberal agenda, at all. Obamacare is a very moderate compromise plan.

0 Repub votes

Have to pass it to know what's in it...

bla bla bla....

banyon
09-01-2011, 08:23 AM
0 Repub votes

That's your standard?

At this point, Obama could ask for a bill declaring the sky is blue and the republicans would filibuster it.

Basically, al and I told you why it was so watered down and you decided to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

mlyonsd
09-01-2011, 08:27 AM
That's your standard?

At this point, Obama could ask for a bill declaring the sky is blue and the republicans would filibuster it.

Basically, al and I told you why it was so watered down and you decided to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.Just to be clear, you're saying it was watered down by democrats for democrats so it would pass? Which is why the far left have dubbed Obama cave man?

Donger
09-01-2011, 08:28 AM
The same health care bill that enraged the left wing because he caved on single-payer and the public option? The same health care bill that many liberals thought was so watered-down that it shouldn't pass? Basically the same health care bill that the republicans dreamed up in response to clintoncare, that one?

Because that is NOT an example of Obama resolutely standing firm to defend a liberal agenda, at all. Obamacare is a very moderate compromise plan.

And why did he cave on single-payer and the public option?

Saul Good
09-01-2011, 08:30 AM
That's your standard?

At this point, Obama could ask for a bill declaring the sky is blue and the republicans would filibuster it.

Basically, al and I told you why it was so watered down and you decided to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

Watered down does not equal compromise. He may have compromised within his own party, but it got zero Republican votes. That might be considered bipartisan in the land of liberals, but it doesn't hold water in the real world.

Obama hammed through two of the largest pieces of legislation in generations without Republican support, and the Democrats seem to think that heis capitulating.

Saul Good
09-01-2011, 08:32 AM
And why did he cave on single-payer and the public option?

So Republicans would vote for it, obviously. That's why the Republicans voted for it and the Democrats voted against it.

petegz28
09-01-2011, 08:35 AM
That's your standard?

At this point, Obama could ask for a bill declaring the sky is blue and the republicans would filibuster it.

Basically, al and I told you why it was so watered down and you decided to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

Hard to claim compromise and bi-partisanship on a strict party-line vote.

banyon
09-01-2011, 08:51 AM
Watered down does not equal compromise. He may have compromised within his own party, but it got zero Republican votes. That might be considered bipartisan in the land of liberals, but it doesn't hold water in the real world.

Obama hammed through two of the largest pieces of legislation in generations without Republican support, and the Democrats seem to think that heis capitulating.

The argument was about whether the health care bill was a good example of Obama not compromising. It isn't.

It wasn't a compromise with his party it was a compromise with the corporate lobbyists that control both parties.

Obama campaigned against the individual mandate- he caved. He campaigned on universal care- he caved. The bill does nothing to address costs and is basically just a giant handout to the large health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry.


Pete was using this as the best example of Obama ramming unpopular legislation down America's throat. He didn't. Just like everything else, he backed down and meekly did what the corporate hacks demanded.

Chief Faithful
09-01-2011, 08:56 AM
Um, the health care was a compromise bill. They went from universal single payer with no mandate to this hybrid free-market exchange with a mandate (based on republican ideas from 1993). Liberals did not want this health care bill. Progressive like me hate it, as it was literally authored by the insurance industry lobbyists.

The compromise was needed to bring his own party together, remember the group of 38?. How soon you forget.

Donger
09-01-2011, 08:59 AM
The argument was about whether the health care bill was a good example of Obama not compromising. It isn't.

It wasn't a compromise with his party it was a compromise with the corporate lobbyists that control both parties.

Obama campaigned against the individual mandate- he caved. He campaigned on universal care- he caved. The bill does nothing to address costs and is basically just a giant handout to the large health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry.


Pete was using this as the best example of Obama ramming unpopular legislation down America's throat. He didn't. Just like everything else, he backed down and meekly did what the corporate hacks demanded.

So, Obama pretty much pissed EVERYONE off? I think that's awesome (and I agree).

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Obama didn't compromise with his own party, though. He most certainly did. He didn't compromise with the GOP at all, however.

Chief Faithful
09-01-2011, 09:01 AM
It wasn't a compromise with his party it was a compromise with the corporate lobbyists that control both parties.



Correct, that is why he had lobbyists and his own party represented in the closed door negotiations without a single Republican representative. Obamacare is Democrat legislation created in concert with their own special interest groups. They cared more about the interest of their donors than the will or need of the people. There is not a single Republican fingerprint on that legislation.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Correct, that is why he had lobbyists and his own party represented in the closed door negotiations without a single Republican representative. Obamacare is Democrat legislation created in concert with their own special interest groups. They cared more about the interest of their donors than the will or need of the people. There is not a single Republican fingerprint on that legislation.

Other than RomneyCare.

Chief Henry
09-01-2011, 10:29 AM
Um, the health care was a compromise bill. They went from universal single payer with no mandate to this hybrid free-market exchange with a mandate (based on republican ideas from 1993). Liberals did not want this health care bill. Progressive like me hate it, as it was literally authored by the insurance industry lobbyists.


Its called Obamacare....it will be used against him BIG TIME. Its preventing ERs from hiring new employees.

BucEyedPea
09-01-2011, 10:30 AM
It's not socialist or communist enough for banyon. If it were it would be championed.

ClevelandBronco
09-01-2011, 12:17 PM
Whether the HC bill was corporatist or more like a socialist single-payer modelóthe fact remains it's a huge stepping stone toward more govt in health care. So even the corporatist model was still shoved down other's throats, which in itself is more govt involvement. Besides, it will inevitably lead to a govt system just as all the earlier patchwork socialist measures have done in the past when it fails to control costs. Building socialism one step at at time on the intentional wreckage of capitalism. Pure Fabianism.

The problem, of course, is that both parties (leaving aside a rogue member or two) are corporatist.

ClevelandBronco
09-01-2011, 12:26 PM
Pete was using this as the best example of Obama ramming unpopular legislation down America's throat. He didn't. Just like everything else, he backed down and meekly did what the corporate hacks demanded.

And after Hopenchange sucked the corporate dick until it was ready to cum, he and his party rammed that down our throats and commanded us to swallow.

Jaric
09-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Pete was using this as the best example of Obama ramming unpopular legislation down America's throat. He didn't. Just like everything else, he backed down and meekly did what the corporate hacks demanded.
Which was to ram this abortion of a bill down our throats.

Brock
09-01-2011, 01:08 PM
And after Hopenchange sucked the corporate dick until it was ready to cum, he and his party rammed that down our throats and commanded us to swallow.

ROFL

HonestChieffan
09-01-2011, 02:52 PM
That's your standard?

At this point, Obama could ask for a bill declaring the sky is blue and the republicans would filibuster it.

Basically, al and I told you why it was so watered down and you decided to stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

So then giving Obama credit for the abortion that he signed, championed, and helped Pelosi and Reid to force through before it was read, at costs that rise every time its looked at is wrong?

Spin it boys...

banyon
09-01-2011, 05:17 PM
Correct, that is why he had lobbyists and his own party represented in the closed door negotiations without a single Republican representative. Obamacare is Democrat legislation created in concert with their own special interest groups. They cared more about the interest of their donors than the will or need of the people. There is not a single Republican fingerprint on that legislation.

That's wrong.

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004182

he concept of the individual health insurance mandate originated in 1989 at the conservative Heritage Foundation. In 1993, Republicans twice introduced health care bills that contained an individual health insurance mandate. Advocates for those bills included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate including Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Robert Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO). In 2007, Democrats and Republicans introduced a bi-partisan bill containing the mandate.

In 2008, then presidential candidate Barack Obama was opposed to the individual mandate. He stated the following in a Feb. 28, 2008 interview on the Ellen DeGeneres show about his divergent views with Hillary Clinton:

"Both of us want to provide health care to all Americans. Thereís a slight difference, and her plan is a good one. But, she mandates that everybody buy health care. Sheíd have the government force every individual to buy insurance and I donít have such a mandate because I donít think the problem is that people donít want health insurance, itís that they canít afford it. So, I focus more on lowering costs. This is a modest difference. But, itís one that sheís tried to elevate, arguing that because I donít force people to buy health care that Iím not insuring everybody. Well, if things were that easy, I could mandate everybody to buy a house, and that would solve the problem of homelessness. It doesnít."

By 2010, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (HR 3590), sometimes referred to as "Obamacare,Ē had passed in both the House and the Senate with no Republican votes. On Mar. 23, 2010 President Obama signed the act containing an individual mandate into law. On Jan. 5, 2011, Republicans in the US House of Representatives introduced The Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act (HR 2) to repeal the PPACA. One of their main arguments for repeal was that the health insurance mandate was unconstitutional.

The two charts below provide a brief timeline of the legislative history of bills containing an individual health insurance mandate as well as the policy origins of the individual health insurance mandate.

Original Policy paper

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/sourcefiles/1989_assuring_affordable_health_care_for_all_americans.pdf

banyon
09-01-2011, 05:18 PM
So then giving Obama credit for the abortion that he signed, championed, and helped Pelosi and Reid to force through before it was read, at costs that rise every time its looked at is wrong?

Spin it boys...

Of course Obama gets "credit for it". That wasn't the question. The question was did the bill he allow and the Insurance companies write represent a strident and principled stance for what he claimed he believed in, or was it another gutless p*ssy of a cave in? It was the latter for the reasons already stated. It was at odds with his own stated policy positions.

banyon
09-01-2011, 05:23 PM
So, Obama pretty much pissed EVERYONE off? I think that's awesome (and I agree).

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Obama didn't compromise with his own party, though. He most certainly did. He didn't compromise with the GOP at all, however.

These were positions the GOP previously endorsed. They wouldn't propose a plan until they were forced to by Obama's statements about their obstruction without a plan until well into the process.

Even then, the republican plan basically consisted of "save for health care if you got the money", and "we hate tort laws" which also does virtually nothing to address the magnitude of the problem of escalating costs.

Donger
09-01-2011, 05:25 PM
These were positions the GOP previously endorsed.

Which positions had the GOP previously endorsed?

banyon
09-01-2011, 05:27 PM
It's not socialist or communist enough for banyon. If it were it would be championed.

Blah..blah..socialism...neocon..blah...

Let me know when you learn a new trick. :rolleyes:

banyon
09-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Which positions had the GOP previously endorsed?

The ones listed in post number 33 originally articulated by the Heritage foundation and proposed in the 1993 bill "Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993".

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/February/23/GOP-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx

If anything, that bill was substantially to the left of "Obamacare".

vaporizadordelmerd
09-01-2011, 05:35 PM
banyon has his nose firmly embedded in the magic negro's ass.

ROFL

ClevelandBronco
09-01-2011, 05:37 PM
banyon has his nose firmly embedded in the magic negro's ass.

ROFL

I think even banyon has given that shiftless piece of shit up for dead. Now he's just trying to save his party and his position.

KC native
09-01-2011, 05:38 PM
banyon has his nose firmly embedded in the magic negro's ass.

ROFL

So how many times have you been banned again?

Donger
09-01-2011, 05:38 PM
The ones listed in post number 33 originally articulated by the Heritage foundation and proposed in the 1993 bill "Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993".

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/February/23/GOP-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx

If anything, that bill was substantially to the left of "Obamacare".

Senator Chaffee wasn't exactly mainstream GOP, you know?

vaporizadordelmerd
09-01-2011, 05:39 PM
So how many times have you been banned again?

I dunno, I thought it was your job to keep count--- Wetback.

ROFL

vaporizadordelmerd
09-01-2011, 05:40 PM
ie w e t back

ha ha ha!

ClevelandBronco
09-01-2011, 05:40 PM
So how many times have you been banned again?

How many of your family fit in a Chevy? That many times.

KC native
09-01-2011, 05:41 PM
I dunno, I thought it was your job to keep count--- Wetback.

ROFL

That didn't take long. You just got a big bag of meth huh?

mikey23545
09-01-2011, 05:50 PM
Pete was using this as the best example of Obama ramming unpopular legislation down America's throat. He didn't.

:spock:

"Slowly, slowly, the Democratic health agenda is turning into a political suicide pact. Congressional members have been dragged along by momentum, by threat, by bribe, but mostly by the White House's siren song that it would be worse to not pass a bill than it would be to pass one. If that ever were true, it is not today.

Public opinion on ObamaCare is at a low ebb. This week's NBC-WSJ poll: A mere 32% of Americans think it a "good" idea. The Washington Post: Only 35% of independents support itódown 10 points in a month. Resurgent Republic recently queried Americans over the age of 55, aka Those Most Likely to Vote In a Midterm Election. Sixty-one percent believe ObamaCare will increase their health costs; 68% believe it will increase the deficit; 76% believe it will raise their taxes.

Democrats also have managed to alienate the liberal base to which they were catering. The death of the public option and Medicare buy-in this week sent Howard Dean to thundering "kill the bill."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704238104574602232786471914.html

banyon
09-01-2011, 06:00 PM
banyon has his nose firmly embedded in the magic negro's ass.

ROFL

oh cute SHTstain is back. Look patteeu! What a great poster he is.

It is a telling sign when this all goes over someone's head because they are too stupid to differentiate disagreement with a criticism of person A with supporting person A. They are not the same. Then, again, that's always been beyond your mental asylum/meth-addled vagrant version of political discourse.

banyon
09-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Senator Chaffee wasn't exactly mainstream GOP, you know?

Did you read the sponsor list?

orange
09-01-2011, 06:37 PM
http://th06.deviantart.net/fs46/150/i/2009/239/3/a/Obama_caveman_by_bntlyjm.jpg

banyon
09-01-2011, 06:38 PM
Hell, Obama even just caved on the date he was going to give a damn speech.

alnorth
09-01-2011, 07:09 PM
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The nickname in the OP fits Obama very well, and everyone claiming that Obama is some kind of strong far-left Liberal crusader who declared war against the GOP and is not willing to compromise, is completely wrong. Limbaugh and Hannity are either blatantly lying to their audience, or they are both stupid.

No one could have predicted it based on his thin Senate voting record, but Obama has turned out to be a somewhat left-of-center moderate who isn't all that eager to fight for anything. The Dems are stuck with him for 2012 because he would be a better alternative in their eyes than Romney.

banyon
09-01-2011, 07:20 PM
A leader with guts:

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/D9yoZHs6PsU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>