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HonestChieffan
09-11-2011, 03:53 PM
UK: Muslim Radicals Burn American Flag Outside U.S. Embassy In London During Minute Of Silence To Remember 9/11 …

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/sep11uk2.jpg
Members of the group ‘Muslims against Crusades’ burn a U.S. flag during an anti-U.S. rally, held close to the memorial ceremony to mark the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks at the Memorial Garden, adjacent to the U.S. Embassy, central London, Sunday Sept. 11, 2011. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/uksep11-550x365.jpg
Islamist demonstrators protest outside the US embassy in London on September 11, 2011 during a ceremony to mark the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on the United States. Around 50 people brandished anti-US banners, chanted slogans and burnt a small piece of paper with a picture of the US flag on it. (AFP PHOTO / CARL COURT)

(Telegraph) — A group of Muslim protesters set fire to an American flag outside the US embassy in London during a minute’s silence to mark the moment that the first hijacked airliner hit the World Trade Center 10 years ago.

A number of radical Islamic groups including Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) gathered outside the embassy on the 10th anniversary of the attacks.

The group of around 100 men shouted “USA terrorists”, brandished anti-American placards and chanted through a loudhailer.

Several members of the Muslim groups made anti-American speeches following the flag burning.
One said: “You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/september-11-attacks/8755834/911-anniversary-Muslim-protesters-burn-US-flag-outside-embassy-in-London.html

Donger
09-11-2011, 04:03 PM
I guess it's a good thing that Britain is so comfortable with and accommodating of these Muslims living in non-Muslim lands, eh?

vailpass
09-11-2011, 04:07 PM
Sand monkeys jealous of who we are and what we have.
Fuck 'em.

BucEyedPea
09-11-2011, 04:41 PM
Sand monkeys jealous of who we are and what we have.
**** 'em.

It's amazing to me that anyone believes this stuff.

JohnnyV13
09-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Radical muslims in the Philippines have been blowing up Churches and committing terrorist acts since well before the state of Israel ever existed.

There is a certain group of them that will be angry unless their culture dominates the world.

mlyonsd
09-11-2011, 08:30 PM
If they really believed in the trash they're selling they would have held their little demonstration in NY.

Pussies.

Taco John
09-11-2011, 08:38 PM
Meh. That group that protests soldiers funerals call themselves Christians. What were they up to today?

go bowe
09-11-2011, 08:40 PM
well, they probably couldn't travel to ny for the festivities since they're all on a no fly list...

seriously though, fuck 'em...

ForeverChiefs58
09-11-2011, 10:01 PM
well, they probably couldn't travel to ny for the festivities since they're all on a no fly list...

seriously though, fuck 'em...


I hope they are all being watched now.


That seemed like a great spot for a small bomb to go off. Earth is much better with them off of it.

ClevelandBronco
09-11-2011, 10:21 PM
If I were in charge of a squadron of drones we wouldn't have to put up with any one of these assholes more than once.

I can't think of any earthly reason for allowing that kid to reach adulthood.

Iconic
09-12-2011, 12:13 AM
If theres one thing I've realized in life is when in conflict always put your self in the others perspective. Now I'm not condoning what they do. Just wonder why... Idk I believe all humans are the same at a certian level of capacity.

BWillie
09-12-2011, 12:19 AM
So let me get this straight, radical Muslim extremists will stop killing american civilians if we withdraw from Afganistan, Iraq, stop giving $ to Israel to build weapons of mass destruction etc etc,...where we also are incurring huge amounts of government spending providing us no tangible benefit while our soldiers perish. USA: Naw, f*** you guys. We want your blood, we don't want this story to end. We want you to bring it, we will defeat you.

Hey. Radical Islamists are f***** pieces of shit. I hate them. I wish they were dead too. So what. Killing some of them isn't going to change anything. Killing Bin Laden, not going to change anything. There is a reason they want to kill us, and it's not for being a "free" country or even because most of our residents worship the man in the sky. Osama Bin Laden even said the reason they attacked the WTC, it's because of the American presence in middle eastern countries, troops we had in Saudi Arabia, sanctions against Iraq. That. Is. It. It is, almost exactly, like gang wars. It will never end until you stop retaliating and f***** with each other. Nobody will win, you just have to accept this. Answer: If we mind our own f***** business, we not only save trillions of dollars but also American lives.

BWillie
09-12-2011, 12:28 AM
If I were in charge of a squadron of drones we wouldn't have to put up with any one of these assholes more than once.

I can't think of any earthly reason for allowing that kid to reach adulthood.

That is a great idea, that surely won't piss off millions of Muslims in the world.

dmahurin
09-12-2011, 12:39 AM
Answer: If we mind our own f***** business, we not only save trillions of dollars but also American lives.


Absolutely :clap:

BucEyedPea
09-12-2011, 06:33 AM
There is a certain group of them that will be angry unless their culture dominates the world.

Sounds like some Americans. Or should I say the NeoCons just don't like competition.

patteeu
09-12-2011, 09:39 AM
If theres one thing I've realized in life is when in conflict always put your self in the others perspective. Now I'm not condoning what they do. Just wonder why... Idk I believe all humans are the same at a certian level of capacity.

Hmmm, if I were a blood thirsty savage who believed that sawing off the heads of innocent infidels was a ticket to heaven, I guess I'd probably be sawing off the heads of innocent infidels too! I see what you mean.

vailpass
09-12-2011, 10:48 AM
So let me get this straight, radical Muslim extremists will stop killing american civilians if we withdraw from Afganistan, Iraq, stop giving $ to Israel to build weapons of mass destruction etc etc,...where we also are incurring huge amounts of government spending providing us no tangible benefit while our soldiers perish. USA: Naw, f*** you guys. We want your blood, we don't want this story to end. We want you to bring it, we will defeat you.

Hey. Radical Islamists are f***** pieces of shit. I hate them. I wish they were dead too. So what. Killing some of them isn't going to change anything. Killing Bin Laden, not going to change anything. There is a reason they want to kill us, and it's not for being a "free" country or even because most of our residents worship the man in the sky. Osama Bin Laden even said the reason they attacked the WTC, it's because of the American presence in middle eastern countries, troops we had in Saudi Arabia, sanctions against Iraq. That. Is. It. It is, almost exactly, like gang wars. It will never end until you stop retaliating and f***** with each other. Nobody will win, you just have to accept this. Answer: If we mind our own f***** business, we not only save trillions of dollars but also American lives.

If you really believe that capitulation to a violent aggressor is the answer it is a damn good thing you don't make the calls.
Giving in doesn't make this type of enemy stop, giving in makes them know they can go for more.
And they will.

BucEyedPea
09-12-2011, 11:19 AM
If you really believe that capitulation to a violent aggressor is the answer it is a damn good thing you don't make the calls.
Giving in doesn't make this type of enemy stop, giving in makes them know they can go for more.
And they will.

Capitulation? Let me see: the hijackers on those planes of 9/11 died on impact, OBL is dead, Afghanistan is occupied and drones attack Pakistan—plus we invaded a country having nothing to do with 9/11, but is now occupied as well. AQ is in crisis. We’ve spent trillions fighting this and we’ve forfeited our freedom YET we are still unsafe? Pretty bad results if you ask me for a ten year war.

Something is wrong with this picture. Isn't time to try another way? I think so.

HCf original post and the excessive focus this year on 9/11 is to generate more support for war funding—for a war with Iran. Another country that had nothing to do with 9/11? Who wants global hegemony using terror here? Certainly not peace-loving Americans. What was great about America is gone.

go bowe
09-12-2011, 12:28 PM
gone?

Frankie
09-13-2011, 12:01 PM
SURPRISE!

The first thread by HCF I agree with. :thumb:

Extremists are stupid a-holes, no matter what color, breed, or religion.

Pants
09-13-2011, 12:05 PM
I love how they cover up their faces. Fucking pussies. If you want to come out and say something, do it like a man. They probably went back home and shared some tea with their christian neighbors.

Mr. Kotter
09-13-2011, 12:38 PM
Hey, jAZ

Chief Faithful
09-13-2011, 12:44 PM
Answer: If we mind our own f***** business, we not only save trillions of dollars but also American lives.

Do you seriously believe withdrawing into our boarders and abandoning the ME will bring peace to the region or stop them from targeting the US?

BTW - I'm having trouble finding a historical reference about the US role during the Crusades. Maybe you can point me to the Web site.

BucEyedPea
09-13-2011, 01:23 PM
Do you seriously believe withdrawing into our boarders and abandoning the ME will bring peace to the region or stop them from targeting the US?
I think it will greatly reduce terrorism if we get the military, at least, off their lands and stop killing their people. No one can get rid of all terrorism. Israel hasn't despite their aggressive stand and defense.

The Independent Institute did a statistical analysis showing how our leaving Beirut resulted in a drop in attacks on us, same in other situations then once we put our military in there again the attacks would rise. Terror attacks soared during PGWI even. Doing the same thing over again despite the same results is not sanity. I think it common sense and I think describing this as "withdrawing into our borders" just for wanting troops removed in the ME is a mischaracterization of the issue. Actually, it's a strawman argument — a logical fallacy.

vailpass
09-13-2011, 01:32 PM
Capitulation? Let me see: the hijackers on those planes of 9/11 died on impact, OBL is dead, Afghanistan is occupied and drones attack Pakistan—plus we invaded a country having nothing to do with 9/11, but is now occupied as well. AQ is in crisis. We’ve spent trillions fighting this and we’ve forfeited our freedom YET we are still unsafe? Pretty bad results if you ask me for a ten year war.

Something is wrong with this picture. Isn't time to try another way? I think so.

HCf original post and the excessive focus this year on 9/11 is to generate more support for war funding—for a war with Iran. Another country that had nothing to do with 9/11? Who wants global hegemony using terror here? Certainly not peace-loving Americans. What was great about America is gone.

Re-thinking our strategy on terrorism is something we must do on a regular basis.
Replacing some/all troop involvement with drone activity, sigint, masint, humint, alt-ops and other resources at our disposal should and is certainly being considered.

But to ever think that showing your throat to a rabid dog will tame him is foolishness; a path considered only by the cowardly or the weak.

BucEyedPea
09-13-2011, 01:53 PM
Re-thinking our strategy on terrorism is something we must do on a regular basis.
Replacing some/all troop involvement with drone activity, sigint, masint, humint, alt-ops and other resources at our disposal should and is certainly being considered.

But to ever think that showing your throat to a rabid dog will tame him is foolishness; a path considered only by the cowardly or the weak.

Nope, what is needed is more special forces action because conventional warfare results in too many innocent civilians being killed which creates more terrorism. This is what brought it here.

But first, we need to start by clearly defining our enemy and not relying on imprecise and overly-generalized language which allows for mission creep such as going after govts when it was NOT a govt that sponsored 9/11. What is being advocated and done by certain righties and NCs is taking advantage of a crisis to do what they always wanted to do anyway. No different than men like Rahm Emmanuel and socialist democrats taking advantage of our economic crisis to implement the socialism they always wanted anyway.

Donger
09-13-2011, 02:03 PM
Other than the Kingdom, what other Arab/Muslim countries did we have military forces before 9/11? Qatar and Kuwait, maybe?

go bowe
09-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Other than the Kingdom, what other Arab/Muslim countries did we have military forces before 9/11? Qatar and Kuwait, maybe?

shush...

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:03 PM
Do you seriously believe withdrawing into our boarders and abandoning the ME will bring peace to the region or stop them from targeting the US?

BTW - I'm having trouble finding a historical reference about the US role during the Crusades. Maybe you can point me to the Web site.

Um, I do (about the believing it would basically stop a lot of Islamists from targeting the US)

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:06 PM
Um, I do (about the believing it would basically stop a lot of Islamists from targeting the US)

It wouldn't.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:09 PM
It wouldn't.

How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

Donger
09-13-2011, 03:11 PM
How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

Thank you, Mr. Chamberlain.

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:12 PM
How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

It's humorous to see the rationality you ascribe to these people.

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:13 PM
How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

no contact might be a bit of hyperbole, but basically i agree... *ducks while shoes being thrown*

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:19 PM
Um, I do (about the believing it would basically stop a lot of Islamists from targeting the US)

Look at the pictures in the OP and tell me something... Does the sign say "Stop occupying Muslim land", or does it say "Islam will dominate the world"?

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:24 PM
How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

So as long as we let them tell us with whom we may and may not associate, we're cool? They will stop using the US as a scapegoat for all of their problems? Should we stop buying their oil while we're at it?

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:27 PM
Look at the pictures in the OP and tell me something... Does the sign say "Stop occupying Muslim land", or does it say "Islam will dominate the world"?

oh c'mon, a few crazies want to dominate the world (well, there's more than a few)...

that doesn't make islam want to dominate the world any more than fred phelps wants to end homosexuality...

radical islamists nor more represent islam than fred represents christianity...

i know i know, fred doesn't fly planes into buildings, but that's not my point...

disclaimer: i realize that the view expressed by the majority in this thread may well be correct and based on the history of radical islamist attacks against us it certainly looks like they would take total withdrawal of our forces from the region as a sign of weakness and increase their attacks... my opinion is different, sue me... :D :D :D

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:30 PM
Look at the pictures in the OP and tell me something... Does the sign say "Stop occupying Muslim land", or does it say "Islam will dominate the world"?

They have grown up in a Middle East whose urban areas were pretty much dominated in some form or shape by Western power. They can't see anything other than a global struggle between Westernism and Islam, because they know that Western culture has pretty much taken over the world.

If my scenario that I wrote above played out, the culture, everything related to the U.S. would evaporate from the region. They would go on with their own bickerings amongst themselves.

It's not going to happen, of course. The world is flat, and pretty soon, information will be available to even the most remote Afghan (who will finally figure out that the USSR is not, in fact, down the broken alley).

But they don't want that, for several reasons. And that's why they're mad.

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:31 PM
oh c'mon, a few crazies want to dominate the world (well, there's more than a few)...

that doesn't make islam want to dominate the world any more than fred phelps wants to end homosexuality...

radical islamists nor more represent islam than fred represents christianity...

i know i know, fred doesn't fly planes into buildings, but that's not my point...

disclaimer: i realize that the view expressed by the majority in this thread may well be correct and based on the history of radical islamist attacks against us it certainly looks like they would take total withdrawal of our forces from the region as a sign of weakness and increase their attacks... my opinion is different, sue me... :D :D :D

It's the "few crazies" that are the issue here. If the "few crazies" are just interested in getting us out of their countries, then maybe Jensen is correct. However, if their goal is for Islam to dominate the world, then we've got a different situation on our hands.

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:31 PM
So as long as we let them tell us with whom we may and may not associate, we're cool? They will stop using the US as a scapegoat for all of their problems? Should we stop buying their oil while we're at it?

yes, we should stop buying their oil...

we should do everything in our power to develop alternative sources of energy here at home and reduce our dependence on oil...

not only is it good for us economically, it will eliminate a major rationale for having large forces in the me...

no need for oil = no need for war (well, that may be a little too ron paulian way to say that, but i'm oversimplifying to make the point)...

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:32 PM
So as long as we let them tell us with whom we may and may not associate, we're cool? They will stop using the US as a scapegoat for all of their problems?

I would think so. If the U.S. completely abandoned all interests in the region, the U.S. would not be targeted by Islamists.

I know, it's a crazy idea when we have the conception that Islamic people have this little chip in them that says from birth KILL KILL KILL

But it makes sense.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:34 PM
It's humorous to see the rationality you ascribe to these people.

Human beings are rational creatures. We are motivated by many things, but nonsensical, baseless hate is not typically one of them.

Donger
09-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Human beings are rational creatures. We are motivated by many things, but nonsensical, baseless hate is not typically one of them.

And you think that the members of AQ are rational creatures?

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Human beings are rational creatures. We are motivated by many things, but nonsensical, baseless hate is not typically one of them.

Flying airliners full of people into skyscrapers full of people isn't nonsensical, baseless hate. Riiiight.

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:37 PM
They have grown up in a Middle East whose urban areas were pretty much dominated in some form or shape by Western power. They can't see anything other than a global struggle between Westernism and Islam, because they know that Western culture has pretty much taken over the world.

If my scenario that I wrote above played out, the culture, everything related to the U.S. would evaporate from the region. They would go on with their own bickerings amongst themselves.

It's not going to happen, of course. The world is flat, and pretty soon, information will be available to even the most remote Afghan (who will finally figure out that the USSR is not, in fact, down the broken alley).

But they don't want that, for several reasons. And that's why they're mad.

It sounds like you're describing a "them" problem rather than an "us" problem. They want to be free to live in the stone age and rule over their populace with an iron (stone?) fist. Their youth want to join the modern world, and the horses are out of the barn.

They will NEVER be free of western influence, as western culture shapes the world. Asian, Middle-Eastern, African, South American, etc. culture accents the world. Western culture, particularly American culture, defines the world.

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:39 PM
Human beings are rational creatures. We are motivated by many things, but nonsensical, baseless hate is not typically one of them.

Hanging onto power is one of them, though. They are fighting a losing battle to hold onto their power, and they are willing to destroy the world because of it.

nstygma
09-13-2011, 03:39 PM
I would think so. If the U.S. completely abandoned all interests in the region, the U.S. would not be targeted by Islamists.

I know, it's a crazy idea when we have the conception that Islamic people have this little chip in them that says from birth KILL KILL KILL

But it makes sense.any perceived retreat by our country would be rewarding their behavior. you've studied classical conditioning. what does that tell you their response would be?

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:40 PM
And you think that the members of AQ are rational creatures?

All non-mentally retarded human beings are rational creatures. I'm not saying that they're good people, or that they aren't completely misguided, or that they don't do evil things. It's clear they do. But they certainly have their reasons for what they do.

Donger
09-13-2011, 03:41 PM
All non-mentally retarded human beings are rational creatures. I'm not saying that they're good people, or that they aren't completely misguided, or that they don't do evil things. It's clear they do. But they certainly have their reasons for what they do.

Yes, irrational reasons.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:41 PM
Flying airliners full of people into skyscrapers full of people isn't nonsensical, baseless hate. Riiiight.

It's hate, for sure. But they had a goal, they felt they were doing some duty that would spur some change for what they saw as their benefit. And they believed they would be rewarded for it in heaven.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 03:42 PM
It sounds like you're describing a "them" problem rather than an "us" problem. They want to be free to live in the stone age and rule over their populace with an iron (stone?) fist. Their youth want to join the modern world, and the horses are out of the barn.

They will NEVER be free of western influence, as western culture shapes the world. Asian, Middle-Eastern, African, South American, etc. culture accents the world. Western culture, particularly American culture, defines the world.

It is largely a "them" problem. I'm not sure where you think I said it's an "us" problem.

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:46 PM
It's the "few crazies" that are the issue here. If the "few crazies" are just interested in getting us out of their countries, then maybe Jensen is correct. However, if their goal is for Islam to dominate the world, then we've got a different situation on our hands.

no, it's many crazies, and they are mostly interested in getting the west (not just us) out of the me...

relatively few hard core radical fundamentalist taliban-level crazies will always attack us no matter what...

ten years of war have not eliminated terrorist acts, although it obviously has prevented a great many of them which were directed at us here in america itself...

we shouldn't base our fp on trying to reason with the hard core crazies, but we shouldn't base our fp on reacting to crazies instead of trying to interact with moderate governments and emerging democracies in the region...

libya was a good start... *ducks while shoes being thrown*

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:47 PM
It is largely a "them" problem. I'm not sure where you think I said it's an "us" problem.

You gave a litany of things "we" could do that would solve a "them" problem, and I'm saying that it wouldn't work.

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:47 PM
It's hate, for sure. But they had a goal, they felt they were doing some duty that would spur some change for what they saw as their benefit. And they believed they would be rewarded for it in heaven.

We are still infidels, regardless of whether we are in the middle east or not. Killing the infidel will always be seen as the duty of a lot of Muslims. No, we would still be targeted for sure.

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:47 PM
no, it's many crazies, and they are mostly interested in getting the west (not just us) out of the me...

relatively few hard core radical fundamentalist taliban-level crazies will always attack us no matter what...

ten years of war have not eliminated terrorist acts, although it obviously has prevented a great many of them which were directed at us here in america itself...

we shouldn't base our fp on trying to reason with the hard core crazies, but we shouldn't base our fp on reacting to crazies instead of trying to interact with moderate governments and emerging democracies in the region...

libya was a good start... *ducks while shoes being thrown*

What was good about Libya?

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 03:48 PM
We are still infidels, regardless of whether we are in the middle east or not. Killing the infidel will always be seen as the duty of a lot of Muslims. No, we would still be targeted for sure.

No way. They don't want Islam to dominate the world. That's why they carry signs that say "Islam will dominate the world".

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:51 PM
Flying airliners full of people into skyscrapers full of people isn't nonsensical, baseless hate. Riiiight.

right, it's not nonsensical baseless hate...

it's hate born from a twisted interpretation of islam...

btw, jenson it's a hate that can't be reasoned with...

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:53 PM
Draw some cartoons of Muhammed, they won't do anything as long as we don't interfere in their politics! Don't worry about it!

Brock
09-13-2011, 03:55 PM
right, it's not nonsensical baseless hate...

it's hate born from a twisted interpretation of islam...

btw, jenson it's a hate that can't be reasoned with...

So what? It has nothing to do with whether we support Israel, or do business over there, or any other bogus reason they give for doing it.

go bowe
09-13-2011, 03:58 PM
What was good about Libya?

i kinda expected this reaction about libya, i should have left that for another post...

libya was a good start because, most of all there was no cost in american lives...

it lasted a very short time...

it cost relatively little compared to our other interventions in the region...

it gained us enormous good will in the arab street and in particular libya, egypt and tunisia...

coming down on the side of democracy is a very good idea, consistent with our ideals of a free and democratic society...

libya is a good start to our participation in the arab spring and helping democracy spread throughout the me, which is a vital national interest imo...

go bowe
09-13-2011, 04:02 PM
So what? It has nothing to do with whether we support Israel, or do business over there, or any other bogus reason they give for doing it.

absolutely agree...

extemist religious nuts in the me will continue to hate us no matter what we do or don't do...

we could disappear from the me and they would still hate us and want to kill us...

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:15 PM
You gave a litany of things "we" could do that would solve a "them" problem, and I'm saying that it wouldn't work.

Yes, I did. That doesn't mean we're the civilization with the problem. And, it would work, in the sense that the Islamists would stop terrorists attacks on the US. Not work though, in the sense that it's practical or possible.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:17 PM
We are still infidels, regardless of whether we are in the middle east or not. Killing the infidel will always be seen as the duty of a lot of Muslims. No, we would still be targeted for sure.

Oh, that's ridiculous, Brock. Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries. Christians and Jews under the Ottoman empire lived as fine as any Muslim.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:20 PM
No way. They don't want Islam to dominate the world. That's why they carry signs that say "Islam will dominate the world".

That's because they're ignorant and view world affairs as necessarily being a global chess board of West vs. them.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:23 PM
Draw some cartoons of Muhammed, they won't do anything as long as we don't interfere in their politics! Don't worry about it!

Some of their internal laws and ideologies strike the modern eye as being barbaric.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:26 PM
I really reject the idea that Islam is inherently violent and dangerous to believers and/or nonbelievers. It's not religion that gives the impetus for their actions. It can, and often is, fuel. But it can also be a tempering agent.

mikey23545
09-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Yes, I did. That doesn't mean we're the civilization with the problem. And, it would work, in the sense that the Islamists would stop terrorists attacks on the US. Not work though, in the sense that it's practical or possible.

Translation : I was wrong

Oh, that's ridiculous, Brock. Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries. Christians and Jews under the Ottoman empire lived as fine as any Muslim.

Translation : I was wrong

That's because they're ignorant and view world affairs as necessarily being a global chess board of West vs. them.

Translation: I was wrong

Some of their internal laws and ideologies strike the modern eye as being barbaric.

Translation : I was wrong

I really reject the idea that Islam is inherently violent and dangerous to believers and/or nonbelievers. It's not religion that gives the impetus for their actions. It can, and often is, fuel. But it can also be a tempering agent.

Conclusion : I'm right!

BucEyedPea
09-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Neo Conservativism is inherently violent and dangerous to all peace loving advocates of liberty. It is an ideology that represents a true clash of civilizations.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 04:52 PM
Translation : I was wrong

The last time I was wrong was 2004.

Brock
09-13-2011, 04:53 PM
Some of their internal laws and ideologies strike the modern eye as being barbaric.

Yeah, no shit. That's why they do what they do.

Brock
09-13-2011, 04:55 PM
Oh, that's ridiculous, Brock. Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries. Christians and Jews under the Ottoman empire lived as fine as any Muslim.

Not anymore, in case you hadn't noticed.

Jenson71
09-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Not anymore, in case you hadn't noticed.

Muslims and Christians and Jews in many countries still live side by side in peace.

Brock
09-13-2011, 05:21 PM
Muslims and Christians and Jews in many countries still live side by side in peace.

Sure, until somebody utilizes freedom of speech to say whatever they want about Muslims, then somebody gets killed.

ThatRaceCardGuy
09-13-2011, 05:37 PM
Christians don't assassinate doctors or blow up federal buildings...or lynch people...or enslave people...glad we have Muslims to blame for everything. Good christians are a blessing to the world...they don't have a history of violence at all...look back 500 years...nothing but peace loving people who respect others and their faiths..and lands.

Brock
09-13-2011, 05:38 PM
Christians don't assassinate doctors or blow up federal buildings...or lynch people...or enslave people...glad we have Muslims to blame for everything. Good christian white people are a blessing to the world...they don't have a history of violence at all...look back 500 years...nothing but peace loving people who respect others and their faiths..and lands.

Yeah, I believe the point may have sailed way over your head.

ThatRaceCardGuy
09-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Yeah, I believe the point may have sailed way over your head.

No..it didn't , I just wanted to interrupt the Klan rally ..you can all put your sheets back on now.

Frankie
09-13-2011, 05:48 PM
Do you seriously believe withdrawing into our boarders and abandoning the ME will bring peace to the region or stop them from targeting the US?

Former: No

Latter: Yes*

(* = Not immediately, but it will weaken the incentive and support for it right away)

Brock
09-13-2011, 05:51 PM
No..it didn't , I just wanted to interrupt the Klan rally ..you can all put your sheets back on now.

Yeah, you've made your usual response to everything. Congratulations on that.

Saul Good
09-13-2011, 05:53 PM
Yeah, you've made your usual response to everything. Congratulations on that.

If Dexter McCluster were white, I wouldn't have cared that he fumbled the opening kickoff.

vailpass
09-13-2011, 05:55 PM
Nope, what is needed is more special forces action because conventional warfare results in too many innocent civilians being killed which creates more terrorism. This is what brought it here.

But first, we need to start by clearly defining our enemy and not relying on imprecise and overly-generalized language which allows for mission creep such as going after govts when it was NOT a govt that sponsored 9/11. What is being advocated and done by certain righties and NCs is taking advantage of a crisis to do what they always wanted to do anyway. No different than men like Rahm Emmanuel and socialist democrats taking advantage of our economic crisis to implement the socialism they always wanted anyway.

Did you read a word of my post before you wrote this response in which you basically repeat most of what I said?

vailpass
09-13-2011, 05:56 PM
If Dexter McCluster were white, I wouldn't have cared that he fumbled the opening kickoff.

McCluster is black? What?

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BHFUH_frhBw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NSFW language

ThatRaceCardGuy
09-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Did you read a word of my post before you wrote this response in which you basically repeat most of what I said?

What first attracted you to your mom? Was it the way she brushed your hair? No..it was when she tucked you in ever so gently...slightly rubbing your thigh...

patteeu
09-13-2011, 07:18 PM
How bored are they? If the U.S. abandoned allied support of Israel, the nation and any home-based companies abandoned all economic, social or political interests in the entire region, and even ended any and all funding and aid to the region, Middle Eastern Islamists would have no contact with the United States. What would they target us for?

Not even Ron Paul suggests that much isolation. The question is whether or not removing our troops from the middle east would be enough to lose the attention of jihadists and the answer is no.

Edit: I see that in post 62 you acknowledge that you're suggesting something impractical.

BWillie
09-14-2011, 02:40 PM
I really, really struggle with understanding why many people do not WANT to accept the fact that occupation, giving Israel $ for WOMD, and direct western influence in the Middle East is spurning more hate and fuel to the fire. Surely you must see the correlation? Its just boggles my mind. It's one of the most simple things to grasp. If I hang out at my house, mind my own business, people will not have an incentive to provoke violence against me. Look at 95% of homicides. There is a motive. Typically people just don't go, man I hate that guys shirt and his way of life so I am going to murder him. How can you tell me US vs Islamic Terrorist is not like gang wars? It's all about retaliation, trying to one up the other party and prove your dominance. Your dominance does not matter. Winning in the end is not an option. Saving trillions of dollars with as little casualties of terrorism/war possible is more important than a dick swinging contest.

Alot of you struggle with the distinction of "fault" and "motivation". When people say that occupation of ME countries motivated these conflicts, you get all bent out of shape saying YOU ARE SAYING THE US IS AT FAULT HOW DARE YOU. Yes, the US has done things to motivate such attacks. You have to first swallow that fact. Doesn't mean the US wanted or is necessarily at fault for it happening. But there is a cause and result for every action, such is life.

Saul Good
09-14-2011, 02:45 PM
I really, really struggle with understanding why many people do not WANT to accept the fact that occupation and western influence in the Middle East is spurning more hate and fuel to the fire. Surely you must see the correlation? Its just boggles my mind. It's one of the most simple things to grasp. If I hang out at my house, mind my own business, people will not have an incentive to provoke violence against me. Look at 95% of homicides. There is a motive. They just don't go, man I hate that guys shirt and his way of life so I am going to murder him. How can you tell me US vs Islamic Terrorist is not like gang wars? It's all about retaliation, trying to one up the other party and prove your dominance. Your dominance does not matter. Winning in the end is not an option. Saving trillions of dollars with as little casualties of terrorism/war as possible is more important than a dick swinging contest.

Alot of you struggle with the distinction of "fault" and "motivation". When people say that occupation of ME countries motivated these conflicts, you get all bent out of shape saying YOU ARE SAYING THE US IS AT FAULT HOW DARE YOU. Yes, the US has done things to motivate such attacks. You have to first swallow that fact.

I acknowledge that putting a kid in timeout after he throws a tantrum might make him throw a bigger tantrum in the short run.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2011, 03:08 PM
I really, really struggle with understanding why many people do not WANT to accept the fact that occupation, giving Israel $ for WOMD, and direct western influence in the Middle East is spurning more hate and fuel to the fire. Surely you must see the correlation? Its just boggles my mind. It's one of the most simple things to grasp. If I hang out at my house, mind my own business, people will not have an incentive to provoke violence against me. Look at 95% of homicides. There is a motive. Typically people just don't go, man I hate that guys shirt and his way of life so I am going to murder him. How can you tell me US vs Islamic Terrorist is not like gang wars? It's all about retaliation, trying to one up the other party and prove your dominance. Your dominance does not matter. Winning in the end is not an option. Saving trillions of dollars with as little casualties of terrorism/war possible is more important than a dick swinging contest.

Alot of you struggle with the distinction of "fault" and "motivation". When people say that occupation of ME countries motivated these conflicts, you get all bent out of shape saying YOU ARE SAYING THE US IS AT FAULT HOW DARE YOU. Yes, the US has done things to motivate such attacks. You have to first swallow that fact. Doesn't mean the US wanted or is necessarily at fault for it happening. But there is a cause and result for every action, such is life.

It's classic bully phenomena like saying: "there you lie down and take that or I'll kick you forever for any dissent or retaliation!"

For some it's more about revenge to the tenth power instead of any intention of ending terrorism. Or greatly reducing it.

In any case, it's a knee-jerk emotional reaction. No rationality or use of reason at all.

patteeu
09-14-2011, 03:21 PM
I really, really struggle with understanding why many people do not WANT to accept the fact that occupation, giving Israel $ for WOMD, and direct western influence in the Middle East is spurning more hate and fuel to the fire. Surely you must see the correlation? Its just boggles my mind. It's one of the most simple things to grasp. If I hang out at my house, mind my own business, people will not have an incentive to provoke violence against me. Look at 95% of homicides. There is a motive. Typically people just don't go, man I hate that guys shirt and his way of life so I am going to murder him. How can you tell me US vs Islamic Terrorist is not like gang wars? It's all about retaliation, trying to one up the other party and prove your dominance. Your dominance does not matter. Winning in the end is not an option. Saving trillions of dollars with as little casualties of terrorism/war possible is more important than a dick swinging contest.

Alot of you struggle with the distinction of "fault" and "motivation". When people say that occupation of ME countries motivated these conflicts, you get all bent out of shape saying YOU ARE SAYING THE US IS AT FAULT HOW DARE YOU. Yes, the US has done things to motivate such attacks. You have to first swallow that fact. Doesn't mean the US wanted or is necessarily at fault for it happening. But there is a cause and result for every action, such is life.

The US exists and pursues it's interests. It's also the most benevolent force the world has ever known. It's a shame that some are motivated to use it as an excuse for violence.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2011, 03:31 PM
No govt is ever benevolent but we're not always benevolent because special interests converge to do harm. The response to 9/11 was classic hysteria.

Jenson71
09-14-2011, 03:34 PM
The US exists and pursues it's interests. It's also the most benevolent force the world has ever known. It's a shame that some are motivated to use it as an excuse for violence.

Quite an overstatement. There are many non-governmental organizations and charities that exist to purely do good for the interests of those they come in contact with.

go bowe
09-14-2011, 03:40 PM
The US exists and pursues it's interests. It's also the most benevolent force the world has ever known. It's a shame that some are motivated to use it as an excuse for violence.

i dunno...

muder is often motivated by the actions of another (a cheating wife, say), but that surely is not an excuse for murder...

the actions of some terrorists were and continue to be motivated by our fp in the me over the last 60 or 70 years...

that fact doesn't excuse those actions...

nor is it intended to...

otherwise, i totally agree with your post...

patteeu
09-14-2011, 04:30 PM
Quite an overstatement. There are many non-governmental organizations and charities that exist to purely do good for the interests of those they come in contact with.

I meant most benevolent nation, but I wouldn't limit that to government action. I don't really think it's much of an overstatement.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2011, 04:48 PM
American interests include peace. George Washington thought so. So turning America into a rogue state is not in our interests. That's not what we're about.
That's for anti-social personalties like Dick Cheney.

patteeu
09-14-2011, 04:56 PM
American interests include peace. George Washington thought so. So turning America into a rogue state is not in our interests. That's not what we're about.
That's for anti-social personalties like Dick Cheney.

Having your people kidnapped, having your ships attacked, having your embassies and troop barracks bombed and having your civilian airliners skyjacked and flown into office buildings is not peace. - Dick Cheney's Autobiography

go bowe
09-14-2011, 05:16 PM
Having your people kidnapped, having your ships attacked, having your embassies and troop barracks bombed and having your civilian airliners skyjacked and flown into office buildings is not peace. - Dick Cheney's Autobiography

ex-president cheney got this one right... :thumb:

Saul Good
09-14-2011, 07:18 PM
Having your people kidnapped, having your ships attacked, having your embassies and troop barracks bombed and having your civilian airliners skyjacked and flown into office buildings is not peace. - Dick Cheney's Autobiography

Its easy to demonize Cheney when you assign viewpoints to him and then rage against said views. It's much more difficult to refute what he actually puts in print.

BucEyedPea
09-14-2011, 09:55 PM
Its easy to demonize Cheney when you assign viewpoints to him and then rage against said views. It's much more difficult to refute what he actually puts in print.

Cheney leaves out way too much and only shows it from one arrogant perspective—that of an imperialist hegemon. How 'bout you bother to look at it from the other guy's perspective...particularly if you claim to desire the reduction of terrorism.

See below what prompted what I said originally on this matter.*

I might add putting your troops in the middle of someone's conflict is likely to lead to getting one attacked. That's just common sense, using reason and logic which Cheney lacks. Reagan recognized this—Cheney does not. Toss in mass murder of Iraqi citizens over many years, including denying children medicine via punishing sanctions which never harm their leaders, bombing them, leaving bases on Holy Lands etc. etc. This is what Cheney leaves out. This is what our troops can even see and why Ron Paul gets the lion's share of donations from our military. More than a few of them know. Many of them are now maimed or dead and not for keeping us any safer. You like that?

Rep. Ron Paul: $36,739.79, Michelle Bachmann: $2,550, Herman Cain: $6,223, Rep. Newt Gingrich: $1,025,Gov. Gary Johnson: $0,Gov. Tim Pawlenty (dropped out of race): $250, Gov. Mitt Romney: $5,000, Sen. Rick Santorum: $250

Even Paul Wolfowitz agrees with Ron Paul on leaving troops on their land:

There are a lot of things that are different now, and one that has gone by almost unnoticed--but it's huge--is that by complete mutual agreement between the U.S. and the Saudi government we can now remove almost all of our forces from Saudi Arabia. Their presence there over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. It's been a huge recruiting device for al Qaeda. In fact if you look at bin Laden, one of his principle grievances was the presence of so-called crusader forces on the holy land, Mecca and Medina." - Deputy Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, May 2003 (http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2594)


* Originally Posted by BWillie007 View Post
I really, really struggle with understanding why many people do not WANT to accept the fact that occupation and western influence in the Middle East is spurning more hate and fuel to the fire. Surely you must see the correlation? Its just boggles my mind. It's one of the most simple things to grasp. If I hang out at my house, mind my own business, people will not have an incentive to provoke violence against me. Look at 95% of homicides. There is a motive. They just don't go, man I hate that guys shirt and his way of life so I am going to murder him. How can you tell me US vs Islamic Terrorist is not like gang wars? It's all about retaliation, trying to one up the other party and prove your dominance. Your dominance does not matter. Winning in the end is not an option. Saving trillions of dollars with as little casualties of terrorism/war as possible is more important than a dick swinging contest.

Alot of you struggle with the distinction of "fault" and "motivation". When people say that occupation of ME countries motivated these conflicts, you get all bent out of shape saying YOU ARE SAYING THE US IS AT FAULT HOW DARE YOU. Yes, the US has done things to motivate such attacks. You have to first swallow that fact.

patteeu
09-14-2011, 10:33 PM
So BucEyedPea is accusing the US of mass murder now? She has no shame.

KILLER_CLOWN
09-14-2011, 10:40 PM
So BucEyedPea is accusing the US of mass murder now? She has the facts correct, but i can't deal with it.

FYP! ;)

BucEyedPea
09-15-2011, 08:49 AM
FYP! ;)

I accuse United Nations Security Council of mass murder of Iraq citizens which is controlled by 5 countries, who get to rule the world. I accuse the multinational force lead and organized by the United State's govt under Clinton and expressing the sentiments of our Congress. Is pat defending Bill Clinton now? Or is he channeling Madeleine Albright? Pat defending left progressives—who woulda thought.


One result: Per Unicef, 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago."~ wikipedia

Jenson71
09-15-2011, 09:12 AM
I accuse United Nations Security Council of mass murder of Iraq citizens which is controlled by 5 countries, who get to rule the world. I accuse the multinational force lead and organized by the United State's govt under Clinton and expressing the sentiments of our Congress. Is pat defending Bill Clinton now? Or is he channeling Madeleine Albright? Pat defending left progressives—who woulda thought.


One result: Per Unicef, 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago."~ wikipedia

Is it the US or the UNSC's intention that children die, or that innocent Iraqi citizens are killed?

go bowe
09-15-2011, 11:04 PM
Is it the US or the UNSC's intention that children die, or that innocent Iraqi citizens are killed?

it's all because of those five countries that control the security council and thereby the world...

of course they intended that children die and that hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqis die...

all that talk about wmd and saddammit being an evil tyrant was just a smokescreen for the bloodthirsty savagery of those five countries...

those warmongering countries, the ones that don't follow ron paul's prescriptions or adopt his theories on monetary policy, militarism and austrian economics, they control the world...

it's easy to understand if you just close your eyes and use your imagination...

no wait, it's open your eyes and smell the coffee...

no, open your eyes and ???

oh hell, sheeple, just wake the fuck up and vote for ron paul!!! :usa:

BucEyedPea
09-16-2011, 02:29 PM
What I find odd about being an ostrich regarding our aggressive FP not fueling the 9/11 attacks is that idea is in " contrast to the conclusions reached by the CIA, the State Department, virtually all of the academic literature written on the subject and al Qaeda members’ own explanations of their motivations."

John Glaser explains in this piece of his in the Daily Caller in response to an attack on Paul for this idea in an earlier piece by Weinstein:

Weinstein would have us believe that America hadn’t been intervening in the Middle East prior to 9/11. But U.S. intervention there has a long and ugly history. As a top-secret National Security Council briefing put it in 1954, “The Near East is of great strategic, political, and economic importance,” as it “contains the greatest petroleum resources in the world” as well as “essential locations for strategic military bases in any world conflict.”

To this end, America needed to prop up brutal dictators that would allow such U.S. imposition. This certainly got us some enemies. And in 2004, the Department of Defense recognized this fact in a report to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. “If it is one overarching goal they share,” the report read, “it is the overthrow of what Islamists call ‘apostate’ regimes: the tyrannies of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan and the Gulf States” and that “The United States finds itself in the strategically awkward — and potentially dangerous — situation of being the longstanding prop and alliance partner of these authoritarian regimes. Without the U.S. these regimes could not survive.”

After the first Gulf War, not only did the U.S. place military bases in Saudi Arabia — something bin Laden described as a grave provocation — but harsh sanctions and a violent no-fly zone were imposed on Iraq. These measures are widely cited to have directly led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright famously said in an interview that this direct contribution to the death of a “half a million children” was “worth it.” In a 2002 message to the American people, bin Laden pondered why it was that “Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern.”

Weinstein says “Osama bin Laden wasn’t upset because the Palestinians were given poor treatment: He was upset that Israel exists at all.” The truth is, he was upset about both. Israel is the world’s greatest recipient of American guns and butter, and Israeli military occupation and mistreatment of Palestinians added to al Qaeda’s list of grievances toward America.

And then Weinstein makes his greatest mistake, equating reiteration of al Qaeda’s motivations with justifying the attacks. Nothing could justify the murder of 3,000 innocent Americans. But as long as the denials of the basic facts about 9/11 persist, America will continue carrying out policies which exacerbate hatreds against America, as both Bush and Obama have done. America doesn’t need to be intervening in every corner of the Earth, particularly when the results are death and destruction, for them and for us.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/15/yes-al-qaeda-attacked-us-on-911-because-of-our-aggressive-foreign-policy/#ixzz1Y9IoOnu7

patteeu
09-16-2011, 03:38 PM
What I find odd about being an ostrich regarding our aggressive FP not fueling the 9/11 attacks is that idea is in " contrast to the conclusions reached by the CIA, the State Department, virtually all of the academic literature written on the subject and al Qaeda members’ own explanations of their motivations."

John Glaser explains in this piece of his in the Daily Caller in response to an attack on Paul for this idea in an earlier piece by Weinstein:

What I find odd is that you seem to want to pretend that by removing the American military from the ME we will leave our antagonists without the motivation that drives their antipathy but here you provide analysis suggesting (correctly) that that is not the case. Indeed, we can't avoid motivating Islamists until we withdraw COMPLETELY from the ME, meaning, among other things, that we no longer have American oil companies involved in the harvest of ME oil and we no longer buy oil from the "apostate governments" that currently control it. That's simply unrealistic.

And even if we could withdraw completely, that wouldn't get our European allies who have substantial islamic populations off the hook.

BucEyedPea
09-16-2011, 04:02 PM
...and they never heard about 9/11 either.

Afghans never heard of NYC terror. They chuckled when these soldier told them the US put a man on the moon.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e1YAv_tPmho" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NaptownChief
09-16-2011, 08:24 PM
Seriously guys don't get upset about this...9 11 was just a hoax set up by Bush to kill our own people....seriously just ask those really well balanced liberals.

go bowe
09-16-2011, 08:39 PM
Seriously guys don't get upset about this...9 11 was just a hoax set up by Bush to kill our own people....seriously just ask those really well balanced liberals.

people like teedubya are well balanced liberals? :eek: :eek: :eek: