PDA

View Full Version : Chiefs My fair assessment of Cassell.


Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 12:54 PM
I wish Cassel was the number one qb in the nfl. I wish the media was in love with him like TB and he was winning like Drew Brees. I wish we all wanted his jersey and it was the number one selling jersey in the nfl. I am a Chiefs fan and I would love to fight to get him in my fantasy draft. Unfortunately this is not the case and rather you like him personally will not change what I am about to say. He is a one good play one bad play QB. What I mean is he will make 1 good play and then 1 bad play. Good QB's make 2 good plays and one bad play and Montana's make 3 goods and one bad play. We all know what good plays are let me say that a bad play would include any play that does not gain yards excluding handoffs. So the the real problem we have is that his bad plays always come right after a good play which results in to many 3 and outs or interceptions. If you watch the games and pay attention to this you will see what I mean. He can improve on this if he ever learned to truly read a defense, I don't see him reading the D he just runs the play. Never looks off the receiver and rarely ever comes off the initial receiver. This is why I think he is not the answer as a starter. I would keep him as a backup, but we need a new starter. I use to blame the O-line for not protecting him but they have gotten a lot better and his proformance has not.

Jewish Rabbi
09-19-2011, 12:56 PM
Show me 3 good plays Cassel has made this season.

Bump
09-19-2011, 12:58 PM
the "enter" key works, try it sometime.

MIAdragon
09-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Show me any good plays Cassel has made this season.

fyp

Douche Baggins
09-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Perhaps you should learn to spell his name before making an assessment.

Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Show me 3 good plays Cassel has made this season.

Come on he has passed for at least 3 first downs.

Pestilence
09-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Your entire thought process fucking sucks.

luv
09-19-2011, 12:59 PM
I'd rather have him play AND win like Brady. If he won like Brees, we'd only be 1-1 right now.

Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 12:59 PM
the "enter" key works, try it sometime.

Sorry about that i used my phone.

Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 01:01 PM
Perhaps you should learn to spell his name before making an assessment.

You knew who i was talking about.

Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 01:02 PM
Your entire thought process ****ing sucks.

Thank you thought is appreciated.

Lbedrock1
09-19-2011, 01:03 PM
I'd rather have him play AND win like Brady. If he won like Brees, we'd only be 1-1 right now.

Thats better than 0-2.

loochy
09-19-2011, 01:05 PM
Perhaps you should learn to spell his name before making an assessment.

PEOPLE!

FOR THE LAST TIME, THIS MAN IS NOT OUR QB!!!

http://benchmobblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/sam_cassell4.jpg

4th and Long
09-19-2011, 01:06 PM
Show me 3 good plays Cassel has made this season.
I can name 4.

1. Exiting the field at half time vs the Bills.
2. Exiting the field after the Bills game.
3. Exiting the field at half time vs the Lions.
4. Exiting the field after the Lions game.

the Talking Can
09-19-2011, 01:06 PM
CCassselll is a 1 good play, 9 bad plays QB

Ace Gunner
09-19-2011, 01:48 PM
okay this sucked

DJ's left nut
09-19-2011, 01:50 PM
http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/38/38ba2741_www_plus613_net_GrammarNatzeeWallOTextbydinyctis.jpg

Bane
09-19-2011, 01:52 PM
Casshole has no place on a professional football team.

Chocolate Hog
09-19-2011, 01:52 PM
Sam Cassell hasn't played for years.

Bugeater
09-19-2011, 03:23 PM
I wish every active member here would start their own personal assessment of Cassel thread.

whoman69
09-19-2011, 03:39 PM
I wish every active member here would start their own personal assessment of Cassel thread.

I thought they had.

SNR
09-19-2011, 03:39 PM
You knew who i was talking about.That's not a very good justification misspelling his name. You're not saving yourself typing. You're adding an unnecessary L to his name.

You misspelled it because you're a fucking idiot. A retard. Just admit it, apologize, and don't do it again. It's not hard.

HemiEd
09-19-2011, 03:43 PM
http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/38/38ba2741_www_plus613_net_GrammarNatzeeWallOTextbydinyctis.jpg
Yeah, my eyes are bleeding but tried.

scott free
09-19-2011, 04:47 PM
For a guy with Matts skills to succeed, they need nearly impeccable accuracy, anticipation & timing... he has little to none of those things.

On my honor, i appreciate what he's tried to do, i firmly believe he's 100% earnest in his efforts... but that doesnt promise one anything in the NFL, 1800 active players & only 32 starting qb's.

I'm not the #1 ace at my job either, sorry Matt, your time here is almost over.

Good luck down the line dude.

TEX
09-19-2011, 04:52 PM
I can name 4.

1. Exiting the field at half time vs the Bills.
2. Exiting the field after the Bills game.
3. Exiting the field at half time vs the Lions.
4. Exiting the field after the Lions game.


#3 was not good. He was dizzy from running around in circles, like an idiot, right into Ndamukong Suh...

GloryDayz
09-19-2011, 06:49 PM
He blows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://images.travelpod.com/users/marshallmatters/rtw_-_2007.1210593600.there-he-blows.jpg

Hog Farmer
09-19-2011, 07:13 PM
My fair assessment of Cassel.

































HE SUCKS !

GloryDayz
09-19-2011, 07:15 PM
My fair assessment of Cassel.

































HE SUCKS !

So he sucks before he blows?? Who does he suck before he blows?

Pioli Zombie
09-19-2011, 07:42 PM
Metts Cassells a won good blay won batt blay guy I like him heez nice. He vizit us atts horizon academy today cool. I like chikken zaled.

Pawnmower
09-19-2011, 08:00 PM
cassells last too proformances we're crappy

Noss
09-19-2011, 08:17 PM
I can name 4.

1. Exiting the field at half time vs the Bills.
2. Exiting the field after the Bills game.
3. Exiting the field at half time vs the Lions.
4. Exiting the field after the Lions game.

Hopefully number 5 will be Casshole exiting Kansas City.

DeezNutz
09-19-2011, 08:20 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility of drafting Luck if Cassel cannot rebound to his '10 Pro-Bowl form. Not the actual game, when he shit all over himself, but the season leading up to it, when he threw for 1500 yards and convinced Pats fans that the Chiefs were set at QB.

Pawnmower
09-19-2011, 09:30 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility of drafting Luck if Cassel cannot rebound to his '10 Pro-Bowl form.

no. youre the 1st

milkman
09-19-2011, 09:48 PM
You know the really tragic thing here is that Matt Cassel is better at his job than this guy is at grammar and English.

evolve27
09-19-2011, 11:22 PM
We've been outscored because we never drafted Matt Ryan when we had the fucking chance. Andrew Luck!

ChiefsCountry
09-19-2011, 11:24 PM
We've been outscored because we never drafted Matt Ryan when we had the ****ing chance. Andrew Luck!

LMAO We didn't have a chance to draft Matt Ryan.

evolve27
09-19-2011, 11:29 PM
LMAO We didn't have a chance to draft Matt Ryan.

:clap: Then should've drafted Sanchez.

NJChiefsFan
09-20-2011, 02:11 AM
:clap: Then should've drafted Sanchez.

:eek: Oh my no. Watch Sanchez and tell me how he does anything on a team WITHOUT 3 very good WRs and a GREAT defense.

Anyway, Matt had a great play this year where he caught his own pass. Oh wait, was that the wrong thing to do in that situation?

Guru
09-20-2011, 02:50 AM
It amazes me how many people have no idea about sentence structure.

patteeu
09-20-2011, 05:49 AM
I use to blane the O-line for not protecting him but they have gotten a lot better and his proformance has not.

The O-line hasn't gotten better.

bevischief
09-20-2011, 06:36 AM
His rib injury is worse than they let on and that is why he worse than usual.

Mr. Arrowhead
09-20-2011, 06:51 AM
my fair assessment is that he sucks

InChiefsHell
09-20-2011, 07:34 AM
The O-line hasn't gotten better.

Disagree. Matt's had a lot more time to pass this year, and before Charles went boom on Sunday they were able to run between the tackles. I think the OLine for the first time in a long time is the least of our problems.

Cassel had all the tools he needs, minus maybe our first round dolt with the broken hand and Moeaki, and still crapped the bed at home against the Bills. I can see that causing him to struggle, but not shit the bed. then against the Lions, he actually had some time and momentum, then Charles goes down and he can't do anything except throw 3 pics and fumble the ball. Yes there was pressure but not as much as he's seen before. Cassel proves he's not a capable quarterback once and for all this last weekend.

OnTheWarpath58
09-20-2011, 07:38 AM
His rib injury is worse than they let on and that is why he worse than usual.

Fucking excuses.

Tony Romo just threw for 345 yards and 2 TD's in 3 quarters of play with a fractured rib and punctured lung.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2011, 07:47 AM
His rib injury is worse than they let on and that is why he worse than usual.

That's okay. They can start Palko for the next 3 weeks.

patteeu
09-20-2011, 08:01 AM
Disagree. Matt's had a lot more time to pass this year, and before Charles went boom on Sunday they were able to run between the tackles. I think the OLine for the first time in a long time is the least of our problems.

Cassel had all the tools he needs, minus maybe our first round dolt with the broken hand and Moeaki, and still crapped the bed at home against the Bills. I can see that causing him to struggle, but not shit the bed. then against the Lions, he actually had some time and momentum, then Charles goes down and he can't do anything except throw 3 pics and fumble the ball. Yes there was pressure but not as much as he's seen before. Cassel proves he's not a capable quarterback once and for all this last weekend.

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. From my POV, the Chiefs are trying to compensate for a bad O-line by using short drops with quick, short passes and by using a deceptive running game rather than a power running game. Very similar to last year except with less success. I see no improvement in the line and it might have regressed a little (although I have optimism that the injection of youth in Hudson and Asamoah along with the addition of Gaither, assuming he eventually gets healthy, will be beneficial in the long run).

Bane
09-20-2011, 08:02 AM
Cassel sucks.

TEX
09-20-2011, 08:10 AM
OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. From my POV, the Chiefs are trying to compensate for a bad O-line by using short drops with quick, short passes and by using a deceptive running game rather than a power running game. Very similar to last year except with less success. I see no improvement in the line and it might have regressed a little (although I have optimism that the injection of youth in Hudson and Asamoah along with the addition of Gaither, assuming he eventually gets healthy, will be beneficial in the long run).



I agree. The line is where the problems start. It is not as good as last season. The same can be said for the D-line, except it's much worse than last year.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2011, 08:12 AM
The line hasn't been that bad. Cassel has no confidence. When he presses or thinks he has to carry the team he chokes; bad. His pocket presence has completely disappeared.

patteeu
09-20-2011, 08:20 AM
The line hasn't been that bad. Cassel has no confidence. When he presses or thinks he has to carry the team he chokes; bad. His pocket presence has completely disappeared.

I think it's possible for both to be true. The line is bad and Cassel isn't dealing with it well. I'm not saying the line is bad to defend Cassel, but I do think Cassel is probably the kind of QB who needs a top notch line in order to be consistently successful. I don't think the Chiefs should wait for that to happen though. It's time to start making plans for a new QB next year whether that plan is Luck or Stanzi or someone else.

Lbedrock1
09-20-2011, 08:25 AM
You know the really tragic thing here is that Matt Cassel is better at his job than this guy is at grammar and English.

You may be correct but the joke is dead. I have been talked about enough in the beginning of this thread to get that I made mistakes so find something else because that was funny 2 days ago.

TEX
09-20-2011, 08:34 AM
The line hasn't been that bad. Cassel has no confidence. When he presses or thinks he has to carry the team he chokes; bad. His pocket presence has completely disappeared.

Well IMO, the line has been less than adequate thus far. You never know where the break point is, only that there will be one someplace. A good bet though is RT / LT, or C. Cassel sucks for sure, but he doesn't have much time to throw anything downfield. He's always in "Pressed" mode because of that, even when he does have time. However, I do agree that a good QB would be able to adjust and complete the passes when he had the time - he can't. He'll hold the ball too long and take a sack. :shake:

TEX
09-20-2011, 08:36 AM
I think it's possible for both to be true. The line is bad and Cassel isn't dealing with it well. I'm not saying the line is bad to defend Cassel, but I do think Cassel is probably the kind of QB who needs a top notch line in order to be consistently successful. I don't think the Chiefs should wait for that to happen though. It's time to start making plans for a new QB next year whether that plan is Luck or Stanzi or someone else.

I said the same thing without seeing your post - only you just said it better...There is a compound problem here.

Steron
09-20-2011, 08:37 AM
For a guy with Matts skills to succeed, they need nearly impeccable accuracy, anticipation & timing... he has little to none of those things.

On my honor, i appreciate what he's tried to do, i firmly believe he's 100% earnest in his efforts... but that doesnt promise one anything in the NFL, 1800 active players & only 32 starting qb's.

I'm not the #1 ace at my job either, sorry Matt, your time here is almost over.

Good luck down the line dude.

I agree with this. He has heart. He's tough. He tries. I don't think you can question those things. Problem is he just doesn't have what it takes to be a starting QB in the NFL. I think he'd make a nice back-up. A starter, no.

TEX
09-20-2011, 08:43 AM
I agree with this. He has heart. He's tough. He tries. I don't think you can question those things. Problem is he just doesn't have what it takes to be a starting QB in the NFL. I think he'd make a nice back-up. A starter, no.

I think he "could" be an adequate starter with near perfect conditions surrounding him. He will never be the type that you can count on to win big games - only manage them.

loochy
09-20-2011, 08:50 AM
I think he "could" be an adequate starter with near perfect conditions surrounding him. He will never be the type that you can count on to win big games - only let them spiral out of control and turn it over 4 times manage them.

FYP

Chiefnj2
09-20-2011, 08:54 AM
I said the same thing without seeing your post - only you just said it better...There is a compound problem here.

Most people aren't arguing that a QB change fixes everything. A few are, but they are misguided. KC still hasn't shown the ability to get short yardage runs. Dex and Charles were fumbling a lot. Bowe has been inconsistent. The other receivers, IMO, aren't anything special. But, at the end of the day it's the QB that needs to step up and keep putting the ball on the hands of the receivers in stride and not take sacks, not throw behind them and throw picks, etc. That's not even addressing the underwhelming D.

TEX
09-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Most people aren't arguing that a QB change fixes everything. A few are, but they are misguided. KC still hasn't shown the ability to get short yardage runs. Dex and Charles were fumbling a lot. Bowe has been inconsistent. The other receivers, IMO, aren't anything special. But, at the end of the day it's the QB that needs to step up and keep putting the ball on the hands of the receivers in stride and not take sacks, not throw behind them and throw picks, etc. That's not even addressing the underwhelming D.

Oh - I agree - and Cassel is NOT that QB. Especially under the current set of circumstances. The kind of QB they need would rise above the problems.
The problems with the defense start on the D-line. There isn't one and it's by the Chiefs doing.

Chiefnj2
09-20-2011, 09:12 AM
Oh - I agree - and Cassel is NOT that QB. Especially under the current set of circumstances. The kind of QB they need would rise above the problems.
The problems with the defense start on the D-line. There isn't one and it's by the Chiefs doing.

The DL is very disappointing. It falls on Pioli. # 4 on Jackson, not bringing back Smith, not adequately addressing NT in the draft when he first took over the team.

TEX
09-20-2011, 09:45 AM
The DL is very disappointing. It falls on Pioli. # 4 on Jackson, not bringing back Smith, not adequately addressing NT in the draft when he first took over the team.

YEP. He could have had Cody, TWICE and ends up signing the guy he replaced in Baltimore who clearly can not get it done anymore. I didn't understand why he didn't bring Smith back. It's like he has to find this "bargain/ gem/ deal" instead of just addressing the situation and doing whatever it takes to fix the problems. Did he really feel that Smith was too expensive with $30 MILLION in cap space left??? REALLY??? He's intent on proving himself right with Jackson and it's very clear he's a BUST. Everyone blows picks / decisions but what you can't do is make them worse by not acknowledging them as mistakes. If you do, you go backwards...:hmmm:

InChiefsHell
09-20-2011, 09:55 AM
YEP. He could have had Cody, TWICE and ends up signing the guy he replaced in Baltimore who clearly can not get it done anymore. I didn't understand why he didn't bring Smith back. It's like he has to find this "bargain/ gem/ deal" instead of just addressing the situation and doing whatever it takes to fix the problems. Did he really feel that Smith was too expensive with $30 MILLION in cap space left??? REALLY??? He's intent on proving himself right with Jackson and it's very clear he's a BUST. Everyone blows picks / decisions but what you can't do is make them worse by not acknowledging them as mistakes. If you do, you go backwards...:hmmm:

I bed Smith grabbed his balls and twisted...

milkman
09-20-2011, 08:20 PM
Do you people that blame Cassel's problems on the O-Line even watch other teams?

patteeu
09-20-2011, 08:38 PM
Do you people that blame Cassel's problems on the O-Line even watch other teams?

Are you blaming the offensive line's problems on Cassel?

milkman
09-20-2011, 09:14 PM
Are you blaming the offensive line's problems on Cassel?

I'm suggesting that actual NFL QBs are playing, and making plays, behind lines of much the same quality that Cassel is playing behind.

MIAdragon
09-20-2011, 09:18 PM
Are you blaming the offensive line's problems on Cassel?

Sure Id say Cassel exacerbates the problems with the line.

Lbedrock1
09-20-2011, 09:22 PM
I'm suggesting that actual NFL QBs are playing, and making plays, behind lines of much the same quality that Cassel is playing behind.

I think you absolutely on point with what you are saying. Take the last play of the first half he is suppose to throw the ball downfield and he takes a sack. Throw the damn ball an interception will not matter at that point of the game.

Lbedrock1
09-20-2011, 09:24 PM
i just feel if we have to take a loss It will be much easier to take if we have a rookie QB who is learning and getting better. Cassel has reach his highest potential.

whoman69
09-20-2011, 11:40 PM
i just feel if we have to take a loss It will be much easier to take if we have a rookie QB who is learning and getting better. Cassel has reach his highest potential.

Check Down is past his highest potential. We don't have the greatest O-line but he makes it much worse. He doesn't hold onto the ball quite as long as he did in the first year, but that is because if his receiver is more than 10 yards down the field or isn't wide open, its going to the check down. YPC is up around the league by more than a yard...except in KC.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 05:33 AM
I'm suggesting that actual NFL QBs are playing, and making plays, behind lines of much the same quality that Cassel is playing behind.

You don't think that line play affects a QB at all then? I can't really agree with that.

Like Tex said, the Chiefs have a compound problem here.

Bob Dole
09-21-2011, 06:15 AM
I think you absolutely on point with what you are saying. Take the last play of the first half he is suppose to throw the ball downfield and he takes a sack. Throw the damn ball an interception will not matter at that point of the game.

And wreck his stellar QB rating?
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:31 AM
You don't think that line play affects a QB at all then? I can't really agree with that.

Like Tex said, the Chiefs have a compound problem here.

That is not what I said.

I'm saying this line is much more maligned than it should be, because Cassel makes it appear worse than it is.

He takes some of the stupidest sacks I've ever seen a QB take, and he has no awareness or vision.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 06:39 AM
That is not what I said.

I'm saying this line is much more maligned than it should be, because Cassel makes it appear worse than it is.

He takes some of the stupidest sacks I've ever seen a QB take, and he has no awareness or vision.

OK, so let's back up to post 62. Who said that they blame Cassel's problems on the O-line?

TEX
09-21-2011, 06:40 AM
I'm suggesting that actual NFL QBs are playing, and making plays, behind lines of much the same quality that Cassel is playing behind.

That might be true, but it does not change the fact that the Chiefs line is sub par at pass protection. Cassel's play might indeed make it appear worse than it actually is. But there are no doubt issues in both places.

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:54 AM
OK, so let's back up to post 62. Who said that they blame Cassel's problems on the O-line?

Tex is.

And teh fact is, it's not nearly as bad as Tex is painting it, even in the post following this one I've just quoted.

Cassel is getting plenty of time in the pocket to make plays.

And, even when there are those breakdowns, a QB with any awareness could move to his left or right, or in some cases, simply step up in the pocket to avoid the pressure.

Matt Cassel actually steps directly into pressure.

Case in point, on the play in which he fumbles, I believe, he has a clear path to his right to avoid the pressure coming from his left and away from the push up the middle.

What does he do?
He steps back right into a sack.

Albert was getting his man pushed behind Cassel, but Cassel simply backs into the sack.

He's taken 2 sacks, one in the preseason, the one that he was hurt on, and one in the first game, where a simple step back or in either direction avoids that sack.

I've watched as he's done these things over and again, with both New England and KC.

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:57 AM
That might be true, but it does not change the fact that the Chiefs line is sub par at pass protection. Cassel's play might indeed make it appear worse than it actually is. But there are no doubt issues in both places.

Have you watched the Packers O-Line?

The Saints?

The Texans?

The Eagles?

Those are just some of the teams that have O-Lines of similar quality, and their QBs make plays.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 06:59 AM
Tex is.

And teh fact is, it's not nearly as bad as Tex is painting it, even in the post following this one I've just quoted.

Cassel is getting plenty of time in the pocket to make plays.

And, even when there are those breakdowns, a QB with any awareness could move to his left or right, or in some cases, simply step up in the pocket to avoid the pressure.

Matt Cassel actually steps directly into pressure.

Case in point, on the play in which he fumbles, I believe, he has a clear path to his right to avoid the pressure coming from his left and away from the push up the middle.

What does he do?
He steps back right into a sack.

Albert was getting his man pushed behind Cassel, but Cassel simply backs into the sack.

He's taken 2 sacks, one in the preseason, the one that he was hurt on, and one in the first game, where a simple step back or in either direction avoids that sack.

I've watched as he's done these things over and again, with both New England and KC.

No, he's not. You're mischaracterizing him just like I did to you. Cassel has problems and the line has problems. Cassel has very little to do with the Chiefs inability to run the ball in short yardage situations, for example.

milkman
09-21-2011, 07:13 AM
No, he's not. You're mischaracterizing him just like I did to you. Cassel has problems and the line has problems. Cassel has very little to do with the Chiefs inability to run the ball in short yardage situations, for example.

We weren't talking about run blocking.

We were talking about pass protection.

This is not a line that's built for power.
They can't man up and get a push.

They are being asked to do smething they aren't built for, and Thomas Jones is an old brokedick who doesn't have the burst to get to a seam quick enough, even when they are successful.

Jamaal Charles was the most successful when asked to get those short yards, and it wasn't even close.

milkman
09-21-2011, 07:15 AM
And yes, he is getting plenty of time, and PFF numbers support that claim.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 07:24 AM
We weren't talking about run blocking.

We were talking about pass protection.

This is not a line that's built for power.
They can't man up and get a push.

They are being asked to do smething they aren't built for, and Thomas Jones is an old brokedick who doesn't have the burst to get to a seam quick enough, even when they are successful.

Jamaal Charles was the most successful when asked to get those short yards, and it wasn't even close.

I used the run blocking example because it takes Cassel almost completely out of the equation and because it's an obvious line-caused weakness.

It's true in pass blocking too, but there it's a combined problem between the line and the QB. That's not blaming the line for the QB's problems, that's blaming the line for their share of the combined problem.

I'm sure there are some QBs who could compensate for the Chiefs offensive line problems, but there are also some offensive lines that could compensate for Cassel's problems.

milkman
09-21-2011, 07:28 AM
I used the run blocking example because it takes Cassel almost completely out of the equation and because it's an obvious line-caused weakness.

It's true in pass blocking too, but there it's a combined problem between the line and the QB. That's not blaming the line for the QB's problems, that's blaming the line for their share of the combined problem.

I'm sure there are some QBs who could compensate for the Chiefs offensive line problems, but there are also some offensive lines that could compensate for Cassel's problems.

If you need an O-Line to compensate for the QB's problems, then you're just spinning your wheels.

You can not hope to compete for a Lombardi throphy with a limited QB in today's NFL, I don't care how good your line is.

TEX
09-21-2011, 07:56 AM
Have you watched the Packers O-Line?

The Saints?

The Texans?

The Eagles?

Those are just some of the teams that have O-Lines of similar quality, and their QBs make plays.

Not blaming the Line for Cassel's problems - I am blaming them for THEIR part of the issues the Chiefs are having in the passing game. Cassel has his OWN issues. That's why I said there are compound problems here.

All those teams above have QB's that can overcome the problem's with their O-line - all but one and that is Matt Schaub. Who also needs the line to afford much protection or he blows. And speaking of the TEXANS line, it is better than the Chiefs at pass protection now - especially at the Tackle positions.

Anyway, I said early on in this thread that Cassel is the type of QB that needs almost perfect conditions around him to succeed. He doesn't have that in KC. So when you add that to his OWN problems, it makes it even worse.
That's all I'm saying...

TEX
09-21-2011, 08:01 AM
If you need an O-Line to compensate for the QB's problems, then you're just spinning your wheels.

You can not hope to compete for a Lombardi throphy with a limited QB in today's NFL, I don't care how good your line is.

In general you are correct. But Eli Manning can argue that point with you and win.

milkman
09-21-2011, 08:06 AM
Not blaming the Line for Cassel's problems - I am blaming them for THEIR part of the issues the Chiefs are having in the passing game. Cassel has his OWN issues. That's why I said there are compound problems here.

All those teams above have QB's that can overcome the problem's with their O-line - all but one and that is Matt Schaub. Who also needs the line to afford much protection or he blows. And speaking of the TEXANS line, it is better than the Chiefs at pass protection now - especially at the Tackle positions.

Anyway, I said early on in this thread that Cassel is the type of QB that needs almost perfect conditions around him to succeed. He doesn't have that in KC. So when you add that to his OWN problems, it makes it even worse.
That's all I'm saying...

You're wrong.

Matt Schaub isn't afforded any better protection than Matt Cassel is right now.

He is simply a QB that has the ability to get through his progressions and and make decsions quicker, and when he has had protection breakdowns, he has the awareness and vision to move away from pressure.

Matt Cassel is either running right into pressure, or he runs away from perceived pressure when there is in reality no pressure.

Then his dumb ass doesn't move when pressure comes straight up the middle when all it would take is a step in one direction or the other to avoid a sack.

The guy simply has no feel for the nuances of the position.

milkman
09-21-2011, 08:09 AM
In general you are correct. But Eli Manning can argue that point with you and win.

Eli Manning had a 7 or 8 game stretch in which he played well above the level that he had/has played at before or since.

It's frustrating for Giants fans, because he showed he had that ability.

He simply regressed after suffering a freak injury, and has never returned to that level.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 08:44 AM
If you need an O-Line to compensate for the QB's problems, then you're just spinning your wheels.

You can not hope to compete for a Lombardi throphy with a limited QB in today's NFL, I don't care how good your line is.

Every QB has problems, some obviously more glaring than others.

What went wrong with the Patriots in the Superbowl when they were going for an undefeated season? Brady, as good as he is, couldn't avoid the Giant's rush and make the play.

But lets get back on topic. You implied that there were people defending Matt Cassel and blaming his problems on the O-line in this thread. You were wrong about that. Let's just admit that and move on.

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:02 AM
I agree. The line is where the problems start. It is not as good as last season. The same can be said for the D-line, except it's much worse than last year.

I think it's possible for both to be true. The line is bad and Cassel isn't dealing with it well. I'm not saying the line is bad to defend Cassel, but I do think Cassel is probably the kind of QB who needs a top notch line in order to be consistently successful. I don't think the Chiefs should wait for that to happen though. It's time to start making plans for a new QB next year whether that plan is Luck or Stanzi or someone else.

Every QB has problems, some obviously more glaring than others.

What went wrong with the Patriots in the Superbowl when they were going for an undefeated season? Brady, as good as he is, couldn't avoid the Giant's rush and make the play.

But lets get back on topic. You implied that there were people defending Matt Cassel and blaming his problems on the O-line in this thread. You were wrong about that. Let's just admit that and move on.

The posts from you and Tex above suggest that the problems start with the line.

Would Matt Cassel perform better if he had nothing but clean pockets all day to work behind?

Sure?

But that would be true for any QB in the NFL, right down to the worst QB on the worst team's practice squad.

A QB has to recognize real pressure, where it's coming from and where to move.

The Patriots and Tom Brady downplayed the significance of his ankle injury in the SB against the Giants.

He is the best in the game, and the best since Terry Bradshaw, at gliding in the pocket to avoid pressure, but his pocket mobility was not there that day because of that ankle, and his follow through mechanics were
affected as well, as it caused the ball to sail on him.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 09:17 AM
The posts from you and Tex above suggest that the problems start with the line.

No. My posts clearly indicate that the problems are concurrent and entangled. I don't know why you insist on continuing to mischaracterize them.

Rausch
09-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Please! Please! Please!

I beg you, trade for the b/u from the team that wins the SB this year!...

Rausch
09-21-2011, 09:21 AM
He is the best in the game, and the best since Terry Bradshaw, at gliding in the pocket to avoid pressure, but his pocket mobility was not there that day because of that ankle, and his follow through mechanics were
affected as well, as it caused the ball to sail on him.

Ok.

We disagree...

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:24 AM
No. My posts clearly indicate that the problems are concurrent and entangled. I don't know why you insist on continuing to mischaracterize them.

You suggest that Cassel would be better behind a better O-Line.

That is true regardless of who the QB is.

None of Cassel's problems are the line's fault.

A real NFL QB can still make plays behind an adeqate O-Line, and this line is adequate.

And the fact is, there are numerous example where he reacts to pressure when there is none.

Any QB at any level could go in and play behind a line that provides perfect protection.

But there is no such thing as perfect protection.

As long as that remains true, Cassel's problems will still be Cassel's problems.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 09:28 AM
You suggest that Cassel would be better behind a better O-Line.

That is true regardless of who the QB is.

None of Cassel's problems are the line's fault.

A real NFL QB can still make plays behind an adeqate O-Line, and this line is adequate.

And the fact is, there are numerous example where he reacts to pressure when there is none.

Any QB at any level could go in and play behind a line that provides perfect protection.

But there is no such thing as perfect protection.

As long as that remains true, Cassel's problems will still be Cassel's problems.

The line is not adequate, but other than that you're mostly just repeating what I've already said.

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:28 AM
Ok.

We disagree...

We have disagreed on almost everything in the last couple of years.

That's okay.

You have a right to be wrong.

;)

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:30 AM
The line is not adequate, but other than that you're mostly just repeating what I've already said.

Bullshit.

Matt Cassel has had plenty of time to make plays.

I count over and over again, and more times than not, by a wide margin, I get to "1000 and 4" before pressure materailizes, and as I've pointed out before, PFF numbers support that claim.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:35 AM
The line is not adequate, but other than that you're mostly just repeating what I've already said.

ROFL.

Through these past two games, the line has been more than adequate.

You know how i know you only listen to what everyone else says? Because you think the O-line isn't adequate.

Fuck, the O-Line raped the Lions D-Line the entire first quarter.

Rausch
09-21-2011, 09:37 AM
We have disagreed on almost everything in the last couple of years.

That's okay.

You have a right to be wrong.

;)

My argument:

I hate our HC and think he's a box of $#it.

He's run off 2 very competent OC's (in a row) and he's going to run off a very good DC if he doesn't get his $3it together.

I like most of the Pioli draft picks and think, the complete opposite of the situation in the 90's, our HC is holding us back and our GM is doing a good job.

Rausch
09-21-2011, 09:39 AM
ROFL.

Through these past two games, the line has been more than adequate.

Run blocking.

Lilja is a fucking joke.

He's been total $3it for 2 weeks now...

Dragonocho
09-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Maybe Taylor Swift will play well enough at Arrowhead this weekend that it will leave some momentum on the field for the Chiefs.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:40 AM
I only went back and read a few pages....no need to read more. This shouldn't even be a conversation.

The O-line is not the problem. Cassel is the problem.

And Ironically, I believe that Cassel is a better QB this year than he was last year.

"But, but, Detoxing, how can that be???? He's Terrible"

Yeah....well his biggest plays last year came on blown coverages. He's not getting those this year. But he has more zip on the ball than I've ever seen him with. And He actually looks like he's in command of the huddle, unlike last season.

However, that doesn't change the fact that he takes stupid sacks and lacks the accuracy to make those tight throws.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:42 AM
Run blocking.

Lilja is a ****ing joke.

He's been total $3it for 2 weeks now...

?????

Chiefs fucking GASHED the lions.

After we lost Charles and shit got out of hand, things changed. But fuck, they were running all over them.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Only on Cp do the Chiefs run for over 150 yards and the run blocking is a "Problem"

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:44 AM
My argument:

I hate our HC and think he's a box of $#it.

He's run off 2 very competent OC's (in a row) and he's going to run off a very good DC if he doesn't get his $3it together.

I like most of the Pioli draft picks and think, the complete opposite of the situation in the 90's, our HC is holding us back and our GM is doing a good job.

Mine.

I'm willing to give Todd Haley a chance to grow into the position.
he's making mistakes now, but I think he has the right mindset and tools to succeed long term.

I also believe that it is the asst. coach's job to adjust their philosophy to the HCs, not the other way around, and if they can't do that, then get the fuck out.

I am not happy with the way Crennel is running this defense.
I do think bend but don't break does have a place in the NFL still, but you can not rely on it nearly to the extent that he does.

If he doesn't start mixing in a little more aggressivenes, then this defense will be constantly abused.

I like the approach that Pioli is taking in the construction of this team for the most part, but there is more he could have done, and I dislike about half, or more, of his draft selections.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:47 AM
Mine.

I'm willing to give Todd Haley a chance to grow into the position.
he's making mistakes now, but I think he has the right mindset and tools to succeed long term.

I also believe that it is the asst. coach's job to adjust their philosophy to the HCs, not the other way around, and if they can't do that, then get the **** out.

I am not happy with the way Crennel is running this defense.
I do think bend but don't break does have a place in the NFL still, but you can not rely on it nearly to the extent that he does.

If he doesn't start mixing in a little more aggressivenes, then this defense will be constantly abused.

I like the approach that Pioli is taking in the construction of this team for the most part, but there is more he could have done, and I dislike about half, or more, of his draft selections.

This.

TEX
09-21-2011, 09:53 AM
You're wrong.

Matt Schaub isn't afforded any better protection than Matt Cassel is right now.

He is simply a QB that has the ability to get through his progressions and and make decsions quicker, and when he has had protection breakdowns, he has the awareness and vision to move away from pressure.

Matt Cassel is either running right into pressure, or he runs away from perceived pressure when there is in reality no pressure.

Then his dumb ass doesn't move when pressure comes straight up the middle when all it would take is a step in one direction or the other to avoid a sack.

The guy simply has no feel for the nuances of the position.

I'm most certainly not wrong about Matt Schaub or about him having better protection this year than Cassel. He is protected by a better line and running game. You are exceptionally wrong if you believe otherwise. Matt Schaub looks exactly like Matt Cassel under pressure. In fact, going into the season, there was talk about this being his last year in Houston and that he was not the QB to take the Texans to the next level.

Detoxing
09-21-2011, 09:56 AM
I'm most certainly not wrong about Matt Schaub or about him having better protection this year than Cassel. He is protected by a better line and running game. You are exceptionally wrong if you believe otherwise. Matt Schaub looks exactly like Matt Cassel under pressure. In fact, going into the season, there was talk about this being his last year in Houston and that he was not the QB to take the Texans to the next level.

I agree that Schaub has better protection than Cassel. However, I wouldn't say that Schaub looks like Cassel under pressure.

Schaub has a much better feel for the pocket. He's also much more accurate.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm most certainly not wrong about Matt Schaub or about him having better protection this year than Cassel. He is protected by a better line and running game. You are exceptionally wrong if you believe otherwise. Matt Schaub looks exactly like Matt Cassel under pressure. In fact, going into the season, there was talk about this being his last year in Houston and that he was not the QB to take the Texans to the next level.

I agree that Schaub has better protection than Cassel. However, I wouldn't say that Schaub looks like Cassel under pressure.

Schaub has a much better feel for the pocket. He's also much more accurate.

I disagree.

Aaron Rodgers gets less protection tha Cassel.

Shaub's line is about equal to Cassel's.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:01 AM
Bullshit.

Matt Cassel has had plenty of time to make plays.

I count over and over again, and more times than not, by a wide margin, I get to "1000 and 4" before pressure materailizes, and as I've pointed out before, PFF numbers support that claim.

Show me the numbers.

In week 1, PFF ratings essentially* graded the Chiefs O-linemen like this for pass blocking:

Albert - Good
Lilja - Good
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Mediocre

and for run blocking:

Albert - Mediocre
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Poor

In game 2, the pass blocking grades were:

Albert - Poor
Lilja - Mediocre
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Poor

and for run blocking:

Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Good

________________
* I've converted PFF number grades to a three category scale because it's premium information and I didn't want to copy it verbatim.

Rausch
09-21-2011, 10:01 AM
Mine.

I'm willing to give Todd Haley a chance to grow into the position.
he's making mistakes now, but I think he has the right mindset and tools to succeed long term.

Sounds like the argument for a career b/u who's now starting at QB.

I am not happy with the way Crennel is running this defense.

Agreed.

I don't know when he lost his nuts and decided to call plays like Grob but that's exactly what's happened this year.

I don't know if he went limp or he was told to call this BS, limp d!ck, no blitz-horse-$3it way but it's still a heaping pile of $3it wherever you decide to place blame.


I do think bend but don't break does have a place in the NFL still...

I don't.

Ever.

I think, right now, the Packers are the absolute perfect NFL model for success. They don't have a limp side, they don't let up on offense or defense. They picked the most aggressive DC in the league and have an attacking offense that looks for the big play.

Coaches like Lebeau and Capers run the 3-4 the way it should be - ATTACKING.

You combine that with an offensive minded HC and a team with weapons and that's why you win rings...

Cannibal
09-21-2011, 10:02 AM
In my opinion, Cassel's two biggest problems are his accuracy (or lack thereof) and the fact that he watches the pass rush rather than his receivers because he’s scared of being hit. This is also another reason he is always dumping the ball off for short yardage, because he doesn’t have the courage to stand in the pocket for the time it takes to find an open receiver downfield.

He hasn’t improved his pocket presence in the entire time he’s been on the team.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Show me the numbers.

In week 1, PFF ratings essentially* graded the Chiefs O-linemen like this for pass blocking:

Albert - Good
Lilja - Good
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Mediocre

and for run blocking:

Albert - Mediocre
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Poor

In game 2, the pass blocking grades were:

Albert - Poor
Lilja - Mediocre
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Poor

and for run blocking:

Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Good

________________
* I've converted PFF number grades to a three category scale because it's premium information and I didn't want to copy it verbatim.

Claythan posted the numbers after the first game, and the actual number of pressures they posted was pretty low.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:08 AM
ROFL.

Through these past two games, the line has been more than adequate.

You know how i know you only listen to what everyone else says? Because you think the O-line isn't adequate.

****, the O-Line raped the Lions D-Line the entire first quarter.

You know how I know you should listen to what other people say. Yeah, you guessed it.

The Chiefs line did pretty well against the Lions heralded front line for a while last Sunday. But they aren't adequate. Here's an example from the 3rd quarter of that game:

3rd and 1 at KC 41 L.McClain up the middle to KC 41 for no gain (D.Levy)..

Here's what PFF had to say about one of the Chiefs linemen in that game:

You might have been expecting an OG to struggle in this game, going up against Ndamukong Suh, but Jon Asamoah actually acquitted himself pretty well. On the other side, however, Ryan Lilja had real problems with multiple Detroit players. Lilja gave up a pair of pressures but was also handled in the run game at the point of attack consistently and was the cause of more than one run play for the Chiefs going awry. The only good news is that he wasn’t flagged for a penalty.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:09 AM
Claythan posted the numbers after the first game, and the actual number of pressures they posted was pretty low.

I thought you said they had numbers that backed up your "1000 and 4" assertion.

Coogs
09-21-2011, 10:11 AM
I don't remember what game I was watching this weekend, but it wasn't the Chiefs game. The commentator at one point on a long completed pass play said "If he's even, he's leavin' ".

On multiple occasions this year... even on the TV feed of the game... you could see our receivers even and leavin' and Cassel does not recognize. Gimme TD's that are wasted from lack of recognition by Cassel. And the line has given him enough time to spot that. In fact, I have pointed that out on several occasions and you could tell Cassel was even looking in that direction.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:12 AM
Only on Cp do the Chiefs run for over 150 yards and the run blocking is a "Problem"

How many games do you think the Chiefs will be gashing their opponents for those kinds of big plays the rest of this year? It was an unreliable form of run game that had a single point of failure and he's currently on IR. Good luck with Dexter.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:13 AM
I thought you said they had numbers that backed up your "1000 and 4" assertion.

I said their number supported my claim that Matt Cassel had plenty of time in the pocket.

That doesn't mean he had nothing but time every time he dropped back to pass.

But he had time in the pocket to make reads and plays on 70-75% of his drop backs.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:17 AM
I said their number supported my claim that Matt Cassel had plenty of time in the pocket.

That doesn't mean he had nothing but time every time he dropped back to pass.

But he had time in the pocket to make reads and plays on 70-75% of his drop backs.

So your theory is that fewer hurries means he has plenty of time? Couldn't it also mean that he's getting rid of the ball earlier? Maybe too early, of course, but still that's different than having a full 4 seconds almost every time he drops back. I don't think "fewer hurries" necessarily supports your position.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:21 AM
So your theory is that fewer hurries means he has plenty of time? Couldn't it also mean that he's getting rid of the ball earlier? Maybe too early, of course, but still that's different than having a full 4 seconds almost every time he drops back. I don't think "fewer hurries" necessarily supports your position.

No dumbass, I'm saying there are numerous plays when he drops back that I count to 4 seconds that he still has the ball in his fucking hands.

It's not that diufficult to understand.

JFC.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:25 AM
No dumbass, I'm saying there are numerous plays when he drops back that I count to 4 seconds that he still has the ball in his ****ing hands.

It's not that diufficult to understand.

JFC.

The only part I misunderstood was the part where you said "PFF numbers support that claim" when, in fact, they don't.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:27 AM
The only part I misunderstood was the part where you said "PFF numbers support that claim" when, in fact, they don't.

The fact that he has far more plays when he has time in the pocket is not supported by the low number of pressures that PFF claims that Cassel is subject to?

Rausch
09-21-2011, 10:27 AM
The only part I misunderstood was the part where you said "PFF numbers support that claim" when, in fact, they don't.

PFF numbers would put Steve Bono as one of the best QB's ever...

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:34 AM
The fact that he has far more plays when he has time in the pocket is not supported by the low number of pressures that PFF claims that Cassel is subject to?

That's right. I already explained why in a previous post. Cassel has completed a lot of short, ineffective passes. Maybe he's doing it because he's stupid or because he has ill-placed confidence in his receivers to get YAK or maybe he's doing it because his coaches don't trust the o-line to protect well enough to support a seven step drop and primary receivers on downfield pass routes. "Hurry" stats don't tell that story.

FAX
09-21-2011, 10:37 AM
That's right. I already explained why in a previous post. Cassel has completed a lot of short, ineffective passes. Maybe he's doing it because he's stupid or because he has ill-placed confidence in his receivers to get YAK or maybe he's doing it because his coaches don't trust the o-line to protect well enough to support a seven step drop and primary receivers on downfield pass routes. "Hurry" stats don't tell that story.

I've watched the games and, for what it's worth, my opinion is that Cassel is checking down because he has zero confidence in his ability to fling the rock downfield.

He is incredibly inaccurate beyond 10 or so yards, Mr. patteeu. Unbelievably so ... for a "professional quarterback", I mean.

I think it really is that simple. No confidence. None.

And ... as I think on it ... for good reason.

FAX THE THOUGHT ON IT

Coogs
09-21-2011, 10:37 AM
Personally, I think the sack on the hail mary Sunday was the perfect example of Cassel's abilities to be a QB.

milkman
09-21-2011, 10:42 AM
That's right. I already explained why in a previous post. Cassel has completed a lot of short, ineffective passes. Maybe he's doing it because he's stupid or because he has ill-placed confidence in his receivers to get YAK or maybe he's doing it because his coaches don't trust the o-line to protect well enough to support a seven step drop and primary receivers on downfield pass routes. "Hurry" stats don't tell that story.

Here it is.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=249936&page=4

Cassel, according to PFF, was pressured 5 time is 36 pass attempts.

You can spin it however the hell you want, but that number says that he had more than enough time most plays to make plays.

His total ineffectiveness is all on him.

There is no other excuse, and you can try to blame it on the O-Line, but that number puts the lie to your assigning blame anywhere but Cassel.

Rausch
09-21-2011, 10:47 AM
I've watched the games and, for what it's worth, my opinion is that Cassel is checking down because he has zero confidence in his ability to fling the rock downfield.

He is incredibly inaccurate beyond 10 or so yards, Mr. patteeu. Unbelievably so ... for a "professional quarterback", I mean.

I think it really is that simple. No confidence. None.

And ... as I think on it ... for good reason.

FAX THE THOUGHT ON IT

There is that. And I think it's true.

I also think that we, as KC fans, over-evaluate our playmakers.

Bowe can be, and ALWAYS IS, shut down when the opposition makes him a target.

He's not a TO in his prime. He's not a Tim Brown. He's not even a Hines Ward or slow Chris Carter.

And he's not a clutch player. He drops that go-ahead TD pass. That 3rd and 8 pass.

And who, exactly, on offense would you even suggest may be a pro-bowl player outside of Bowe?...

Halfcan
09-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Here it is.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=249936&page=4

Cassel, according to PFF, was pressured 5 time is 36 pass attempts.

You can spin it however the hell you want, but that number says that he had more than enough time most plays to make plays.

His total ineffectiveness is all on him.

There is no other excuse, and you can try to blame it on the O-Line, but that number puts the lie to your assigning blame anywhere but Cassel.

:clap: Matt is DONE in KC-he has looked horrible-I wish they would just Bench his sorry ass.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 10:59 AM
Here it is.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=249936&page=4

Cassel, according to PFF, was pressured 5 time is 36 pass attempts.

You can spin it however the hell you want, but that number says that he had more than enough time most plays to make plays.

His total ineffectiveness is all on him.

There is no other excuse, and you can try to blame it on the O-Line, but that number puts the lie to your assigning blame anywhere but Cassel.

No, it doesn't. I've already explained why so I have to conclude that you aren't capable of understanding that and we can agree to disagree.

Once again though, I have to correct you're repeated mischaracterizations of my position. I'm not blaming Cassel's problems on the o-line. I'm blaming the o-lines problems on the o-line and Cassel's problems on Cassel.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:00 AM
I've watched the games and, for what it's worth, my opinion is that Cassel is checking down because he has zero confidence in his ability to fling the rock downfield.

He is incredibly inaccurate beyond 10 or so yards, Mr. patteeu. Unbelievably so ... for a "professional quarterback", I mean.

I think it really is that simple. No confidence. None.

And ... as I think on it ... for good reason.

FAX THE THOUGHT ON IT

I agree with the lack of confidence part.

FAX
09-21-2011, 11:04 AM
There is that. And I think it's true.

I also think that we, as KC fans, over-evaluate our playmakers.

Bowe can be, and ALWAYS IS, shut down when the opposition makes him a target.

He's not a TO in his prime. He's not a Tim Brown. He's not even a Hines Ward or slow Chris Carter.

And he's not a clutch player. He drops that go-ahead TD pass. That 3rd and 8 pass.

And who, exactly, on offense would you even suggest may be a pro-bowl player outside of Bowe?...

All very true and rightly so, Mr. Rausch.

However, a good quarterback can make those around him better ... or at least it's possible and many do.

We had a similar problem with Downfield Damon, if you recall. The receivers had no freaking clue where the ball was going to be placed. Over the head? Under the shins? Inside? Outside? Behind them? Near the groin?

When you have a consistently inaccurate quarterback, it seems as though the receivers lose confidence as well. It affects their concentration, their routes, all of that.

Hell, we have guys running down field on the snap for no reason whatsoever because the ball isn't going to be thrown more than 5 yards. If I were a receiver that would, eventually, start messing with my head.

FAX

milkman
09-21-2011, 11:09 AM
No, it doesn't. I've already explained why so I have to conclude that you aren't capable of understanding that and we can agree to disagree.

Once again though, I have to correct you're repeated mischaracterizations of my position. I'm not blaming Cassel's problems on the o-line. I'm blaming the o-lines problems on the o-line and Cassel's problems on Cassel.

I know bullshit when I see it.

A pressure is defined by the D-Line getting after the QB in less than 3 seconds.

Your assertion that this O-Line is not adequate, and that it compounds Cassel's problems as a result is bullshit.

If he has 3 seconds or more in the pocket, which he had in that first game 31 times in 36 attempts, then the problem is all on him, and the O-Line did their job adequately, or better.

You can try to spin it any way your useless dumb ass wants, but it's still all bullshit.

FAX
09-21-2011, 11:13 AM
You know, Mr. GoChiefs (or whatever he calls himself now) posted a gif thing the other day and I actually looked at it.

It was the play where (I think) Cassel was intercepted when he threw a sideline out into double coverage ... think that's right.

Anyhow, you could see that Bowe was running free ... corner trailing ... wide open ... and, apparently, didn't get a look from Cassel.

Bad decisions, lack of confidence, poor footwork, inaccuracy, fear ... that about covers it.

Pioli's worse decision on our behalf to date. Far worse, even, than that DE dude.

FAX

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:23 AM
I know bullshit when I see it.

A pressure is defined by the D-Line getting after the QB in less than 3 seconds.

Your assertion that this O-Line is not adequate, and that it compounds Cassel's problems as a result is bullshit.

If he has 3 seconds or more in the pocket, which he had in that first game 31 times in 36 attempts, then the problem is all on him, and the O-Line did their job adequately, or better.

You can try to spin it any way your useless dumb ass wants, but it's still all bullshit.

It's idiotic to suggest that 3 seconds is enough time for a QB to make all the plays that we'd like our QB to make. If that's your standard for an adequate line, I can understand why you have such a hard time realizing that ours isn't.

I'm not saying that we need to fix the o-line before we get another QB. And I'm not even saying that this group of linemen can't improve enough to be adequate. But I am saying that our current line is an issue, and PFF supports this just in case you can't see that with your own eyes.

BTW, PFF graded Matt Cassel as slightly "positive" in week 1 and slightly "negative" in week 2 to use GoChief's terminology. Using mine, he was "mediocre" in both week 1 and week 2. In other words, when GoChiefs says the line all graded out as "positive" according to PFF, it's no great shakes.

FAX
09-21-2011, 11:25 AM
Mediocre?

Mediocre?

FAX THE SPEECHLESSLY STUNNED AND SOMEWHAT AFRAID TO COMMENT FURTHER

SNR
09-21-2011, 11:27 AM
No, it doesn't. I've already explained why so I have to conclude that you aren't capable of understanding that and we can agree to disagree.

Once again though, I have to correct you're repeated mischaracterizations of my position. I'm not blaming Cassel's problems on the o-line. I'm blaming the o-lines problems on the o-line and Cassel's problems on Cassel.Did you see the offensive line against Detroit? They were magnificent on a couple plays.

Yeah, the line needs improvement (particularly in coaching) but we aren't getting blown out 80 million - 10 because of them.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:32 AM
Did you see the offensive line against Detroit? They were magnificent on a couple plays.

Yeah, the line needs improvement (particularly in coaching) but we aren't getting blown out 80 million - 10 because of them.

We agree that they need improvement. Coaching may well be enough. But where we apparently disagree is that they are certainly contributing to the Chief's lopsided losses. I can't comprehend how someone can acknowledge that they need improvement while denying that they have any part in the losses. Where did all these O-line apologists come from? It's like the thought of Matt Cassel blinds you people to common sense.

Yes, I did see them against Detroit and at times I think they did a great job. If they could consistently do that, I wouldn't have a problem with them.

FAX
09-21-2011, 11:36 AM
We agree that they need improvement. Coaching may well be enough. But where we apparently disagree is that they are certainly contributing to the Chief's lopsided losses. I can't comprehend how someone can acknowledge that they need improvement while denying that they have any part in the losses. Where did all these O-line apologists come from? It's like the thought of Matt Cassel blinds you people to common sense.

Yes, I did see them against Detroit and at times I think they did a great job. If they could consistently do that, I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Our line is a little patchwork at this point ... no question. A couple of those guys are really young and a couple are really old. Some inconsistency is to be expected.

Blaming the line for a 2-yard passing average is kinda ... stretching their contribution ... or lack, thereof, I would think.

FAX

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:39 AM
Our line is a little patchwork at this point ... no question. A couple of those guys are really young and a couple are really old. Some inconsistency is to be expected.

Blaming the line for a 2-yard passing average is kinda ... stretching their contribution ... or lack, thereof, I would think.

FAX

So are you saying that the line's inconsistency has had no impact on the Chief's offensive outcomes? None at all? You must be saying that if you're disagreeing with me.

FAX
09-21-2011, 11:43 AM
So are you saying that the line's inconsistency has had no impact on the Chief's offensive outcomes? None at all? You must be saying that if you're disagreeing with me.

I'm not disagreeing that the line "contributes" to offensive outcomes ... both positive and negative.

From my perspective, the problems associated with the o-line are like ... say stubbing your toe on a gourd while you're working in the garden one afternoon. Whereas the problems associated with Cassel are equivalent to having a baby grand piano fall on your head from a 40 story building.

FAX

milkman
09-21-2011, 11:44 AM
It's idiotic to suggest that 3 seconds is enough time for a QB to make all the plays that we'd like our QB to make. If that's your standard for an adequate line, I can understand why you have such a hard time realizing that ours isn't.

I'm not saying that we need to fix the o-line before we get another QB. And I'm not even saying that this group of linemen can't improve enough to be adequate. But I am saying that our current line is an issue, and PFF supports this just in case you can't see that with your own eyes.

BTW, PFF graded Matt Cassel as slightly "positive" in week 1 and slightly "negative" in week 2 to use GoChief's terminology. Using mine, he was "mediocre" in both week 1 and week 2. In other words, when GoChiefs says the line all graded out as "positive" according to PFF, it's no great shakes.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/2/23/2010886/matt-cassel-hang-onto-the-ball

It's not my standard.

You hear former QBs, coaches and O-Linemen turned analysts talk about the 3 second rule all the time, as well, in breaking down plays.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 01:56 PM
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/2/23/2010886/matt-cassel-hang-onto-the-ball

It's not my standard.

You hear former QBs, coaches and O-Linemen turned analysts talk about the 3 second rule all the time, as well, in breaking down plays.

OK, I'll accept that I was wrong about 3 seconds being a reasonable standard. It's a shame you haven't been able to admit it when you've been wrong in this thread, but congratulations on changing the subject enough times to finally get one right.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 02:24 PM
More gleaned from PFF. Obviously we've only had 2 games so I wouldn't put too much stock into these ratings, but for now they don't support the idea that our O-line is adequate as far as I'm concerned.

Overall:
Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Poor

Pass:
Albert - Mediocre
Lilja - Mediocre
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Poor

Run:
Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Mediocre

The story that data tells me is that we have a couple of good run blockers who might be passable as pass blockers (although one of them is our LT who ought to be better at pass blocking) and three guys who have had significant issues. Hopefully, those issues can be corrected through better coaching or more experience and hopefully Hudson and Gaither will be able to help by next season.

TEX
09-21-2011, 02:51 PM
More gleaned from PFF. Obviously we've only had 2 games so I wouldn't put too much stock into these ratings, but for now they don't support the idea that our O-line is adequate as far as I'm concerned.

Overall:
Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Poor

Pass:
Albert - Mediocre
Lilja - Mediocre
Weigman - Mediocre
Asamoah - Mediocre
Richardson - Poor

Run:
Albert - Good
Lilja - Poor
Weigman - Good
Asamoah - Poor
Richardson - Mediocre

The story that data tells me is that we have a couple of good run blockers who might be passable as pass blockers (although one of them is our LT who ought to be better at pass blocking) and three guys who have had significant issues. Hopefully, those issues can be corrected through better coaching or more experience and hopefully Hudson and Gaither will be able to help by next season.

THANK YOU for providing this - for those who don't / won't / can't trust their own eyes. Funny thing about this data is some here will only view PFF as a reputable source when supporting their point of view. So, I'm gonna enjoy the moment! ;)

Douche Baggins
09-21-2011, 03:11 PM
More gleaned from PFF. Obviously we've only had 2 games so I wouldn't put too much stock into these ratings, but for now they don't support the idea that our O-line is adequate as far as I'm concerned.


The pass blocking rating is positive for the entire line apart from Richardson. They've given up 11 pressures, but 6 are from Richardson.

I think the pass blocking has been fine. Especially from Albert.

The run blocking needs to improve but we're averaging 5.5 YPC so it's not like Cassel hasn't had support from the running game.

DeezNutz
09-21-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm not disagreeing that the line "contributes" to offensive outcomes ... both positive and negative.

From my perspective, the problems associated with the o-line are like ... say stubbing your toe on a gourd while you're working in the garden one afternoon. Whereas the problems associated with Cassel are equivalent to having a baby grand piano fall on your head from a 40 story building.

FAX

Good grief, guy. How many gaddum gourds you got in that garden?

patteeu
09-21-2011, 03:30 PM
The pass blocking rating is positive for the entire line apart from Richardson. They've given up 11 pressures, but 6 are from Richardson.

I think the pass blocking has been fine. Especially from Albert.

The run blocking needs to improve but we're averaging 5.5 YPC so it's not like Cassel hasn't had support from the running game.

The pass blocking for those four is BARELY positive. Not positive as in good, but positive as in right around the middle of the pack. And as you said, Richardson's pass blocking is significantly negative.

Douche Baggins
09-21-2011, 03:39 PM
The pass blocking for those four is BARELY positive. Not positive as in good, but positive as in right around the middle of the pack. And as you said, Richardson's pass blocking is significantly negative.

That's not unusual after two games. The majority of the league is below 1.0 at the moment.

There are: 16 tackles, 22 guards and only 4 centers above 1.0.

If Lilja, Wiegmann, Asamoah and Albert were to continue on their current pass blocking trend (which would equal 4.0 for the interior linemen, 4.8 for Albert after 16 games), they would all be among the top 10-15 league leaders according to the 2010 results.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 04:52 PM
That's not unusual after two games. The majority of the league is below 1.0 at the moment.

There are: 16 tackles, 22 guards and only 4 centers above 1.0.

If Lilja, Wiegmann, Asamoah and Albert were to continue on their current pass blocking trend (which would equal 4.0 for the interior linemen, 4.8 for Albert after 16 games), they would all be among the top 10-15 league leaders according to the 2010 results.

I agree that we shouldn't read too much into two games worth of data, but the fact that only two of those four are in the top 10-15 right now suggests that it might be optimistic to expect all four to end up there.

And when you factor in their run blocking performance, you end up with an underwhelming current-state at both guard positions and at right tackle. The line is inadequate so far this year as far as I'm concerned but I hope it improves with time.

KC Tattoo
09-21-2011, 05:13 PM
Some how, Matt Cassel should be incuded in this song
Mmmm mmm mmm...

Only explanation.

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vIbcqgXh5-4?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vIbcqgXh5-4?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

milkman
09-21-2011, 05:18 PM
OK, I'll accept that I was wrong about 3 seconds being a reasonable standard. It's a shame you haven't been able to admit it when you've been wrong in this thread, but congratulations on changing the subject enough times to finally get one right.

Did you not say that the reason that Cassel is making short drops and short passes is that the O-Line is poor in pass protection?

You and Tex are placing balme for Cassel's ineptitude on the line.

Maybe I just have a reading comprehension issue, but these qoutes below are hard for me to interpert any other way.

I agree. The line is where the problems start. It is not as good as last season. The same can be said for the D-line, except it's much worse than last year.

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree. From my POV, the Chiefs are trying to compensate for a bad O-line by using short drops with quick, short passes and by using a deceptive running game rather than a power running game. Very similar to last year except with less success. I see no improvement in the line and it might have regressed a little (although I have optimism that the injection of youth in Hudson and Asamoah along with the addition of Gaither, assuming he eventually gets healthy, will be beneficial in the long run).

patteeu
09-21-2011, 05:49 PM
Did you not say that the reason that Cassel is making short drops and short passes is that the O-Line is poor in pass protection?

You and Tex are placing balme for Cassel's ineptitude on the line.

Maybe I just have a reading comprehension issue, but these qoutes below are hard for me to interpert any other way.

I said that I think that's probably one reason the Chiefs are throwing so many short passes. Other reasons might include a lack of confidence in the QB on the part of either the play caller or the QB himself.

Not once in this thread have I defended Cassel from anything other than the absurd idea that he is the sole reason for the Chiefs' offensive woes. Cassel has played poorly so far this year. There's no denying that, and I haven't been denying it.

If the Chiefs get the opportunity to improve either the QB position or the offensive line position at some point, I'd rather them upgrade the QB. But that doesn't mean I think the line is adequate. I hope it grows into adequate, but if it doesn't, I hope the Chiefs can upgrade the line a bit too.

milkman
09-21-2011, 05:57 PM
I said that I think that's probably one reason the Chiefs are throwing so many short passes. Other reasons might include a lack of confidence in the QB on the part of either the play caller or the QB himself.

Not once in this thread have I defended Cassel from anything other than the absurd idea that he is the sole reason for the Chiefs' offensive woes. Cassel has played poorly so far this year. There's no denying that, and I haven't been denying it.

If the Chiefs get the opportunity to improve either the QB position or the offensive line position at some point, I'd rather them upgrade the QB. But that doesn't mean I think the line is adequate. I hope it grows into adequate, but if it doesn't, I hope the Chiefs can upgrade the line a bit too.

You said, and I quote, again,

the Chiefs are trying to compensate for a bad O-line by using short drops with quick, short passes

That is clear to me.

I don't see how I can read that any other way other than as assigning blame to the O-Line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings.

TEX
09-21-2011, 06:21 PM
Did you not say that the reason that Cassel is making short drops and short passes is that the O-Line is poor in pass protection?

You and Tex are placing balme for Cassel's ineptitude on the line.

Maybe I just have a reading comprehension issue, but these qoutes below are hard for me to interpert any other way.

You're comprehension is fine, however you do have a selective memory issue. I went into great detail about exactly what I meant. (Remember the whole order thing about a million posts ago???) I'm not going there again. You don't want to see it any other way therefore you can't. So game over - move on. No way we will agree on this issue. No winner no loser. Not even a tie - just a difference of opinion regarding the roll of the offensive line in the overall offensive suckage department.

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:26 PM
You're comprehension is fine, however you do have a selective memory issue. I went into great detail about exactly what I meant. (Remember the whole order thing about a million posts ago???) I'm not going there again. You don't want to see it any other way therefore you can't. So game over - move on. No way we will agree on this issue. No winner no loser. Not even a tie - just a difference of opinion regarding the roll of the offensive line in the overall offensive suckage department.

No, we don't disagree on the roll of the O-Line in the overall suckage department.

I don't expect Matt Cassel to be Aaron Rodgers, whose play masks the deficiencies of his O-Line.

I do expect Matt Cassel to make plays when the O-Line gives him the time to make plays, and he is not doing that.

Where we disagree is how bad this O-Line is.

Are they great?

Hell no.

But neither are they as bad as you are portraying them.

Matt Cassel doesn't suck because the O-Line sucks.

Matt Cassel sucks because Matt Cassel sucks.

whoman69
09-21-2011, 06:28 PM
You said, and I quote, again,



That is clear to me.

I don't see how I can read that any other way other than as assigning blame to the O-Line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings.

Good luck trying to explain to patteeu what he said. It doesn't work in the DC forum, and probably won't work here either. He only concentrates on things that agree with what he is trying to put forth.

TEX
09-21-2011, 06:33 PM
You said, and I quote, again,



That is clear to me.

I don't see how I can read that any other way other than as assigning blame to the O-Line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings.

If you really tried I bet you could see that it could mean that the OL is bad at pass protection (on it's own) and because it is bad (on it's own) the passing game needs to be adjusted. The statement is fine on it's own.

If you can't see to it to read it an other way other than assinging blame to the O-line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings then you don't want to do so. It's right there in front of you in black and white. Just read it and don't read anything into it...

TEX
09-21-2011, 06:38 PM
No, we don't disagree on the roll of the O-Line in the overall suckage department.

I don't expect Matt Cassel to be Aaron Rodgers, whose play masks the deficiencies of his O-Line.

I do expect Matt Cassel to make plays when the O-Line gives him the time to make plays, and he is not doing that.

Where we disagree is how bad this O-Line is.

Are they great?

Hell no.

But neither are they as bad as you are portraying them.

Matt Cassel doesn't suck because the O-Line sucks.

Matt Cassel sucks because Matt Cassel sucks.

Yes - Cassel SUCKS because he SUCKS! We agree there.

The OL also sucks, and because of that Cassel sucks worse. Compound problem. We don't agree there.

Cassel SUCKS, and because of that he sometimes makes the OL look like it sucks worse than it actually does. - I think we agree there too.

So, 2 out of 3 ain't bad - I'll take it! :thumb:

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:44 PM
If you really tried I bet you could see that it could mean that the OL is bad at pass protection (on it's own) and because it is bad (on it's own) the passing game needs to be adjusted. The statement is fine on it's own.

If you can't see to it to read it an other way other than assinging blame to the O-line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings then you don't want to do so. It's right there in front of you in black and white. Just read it and don't read anything into it...

JFC, I fully understand that he is saying that the pass blocking is bad on it's own, and that is what I am arguing.

The pass protection has not been nearly as bad as you and your dumbass friend have tried to tell us.

The O-Line has provided the protection on most plays for Cassel to do his job.

I don't have any fucking clue what fucking games you two dumbasses have been watching, but it hasn't been the same fucking games we have been.

TEX
09-21-2011, 06:50 PM
JFC, I fully understand that he is saying that the pass blocking is bad on it's own, and that is what I am arguing.

The pass protection has not been nearly as bad as you and your dumbass friend have tried to tell us.

The O-Line has provided the protection on most plays for Cassel to do his job.

I don't have any ****ing clue what ****ing games you two dumbasses have been watching, but it hasn't been the same ****ing games we have been.


Sure it has, you've just been watching them on the "IM BLIND" channel...Those of us that can see with our own eyes don't get that channel...;)

milkman
09-21-2011, 06:54 PM
Sure it has, you've just been watching them on the "IM BLIND" channel...Those of us that can see with our own eyes don't get that channel...;)

The people watching the "I'M BLIND "channel don't count to 4, or more, on almost every pass attempt by Cassel.

As I've said before, I count "100and1, 1000and2, 1000and3, 1000and4, etc. everytime Cassel drops back, and there have only been a about 10 times in 50+ attempts when I haven't reached 1000and4.

Douche Baggins
09-21-2011, 06:56 PM
The people watching the "I'M BLIND "channel don't count to 4, or more, on almost every pass attempt by Cassel.

As I've said before, I count "100and1, 1000and2, 1000and3, 1000and4, etc. everytime Cassel drops back, and there have only been a about 10 times in 50+ attempts when I haven't reached 1000and4.

You don't even need to count. If the QBs back foot hits and he can hold it without being in danger the OL is doing fine.

milkman
09-21-2011, 07:04 PM
You don't even need to count. If the QBs back foot hits and he can hold it without being in danger the OL is doing fine.

I started doing it last year when everyone was blaming the O-Line for Cassel's shortcomings, when I, and a few others, thought Cassel was responsible for the O-Line's shortcomings.

I pointed that count nearly every pass attempt in chat for a game or three.

BossChief
09-21-2011, 07:08 PM
Mt assessment of Cassel:

he is at the point now that every team we face knows the limited amount of stuff he can do as a passer that can hurt them and they know how to take that away from him.

He is showing that he isnt good enough to rise to the occasion and show defenses that he has improved and that they have other things to account for when he drops back.

This is now compounded due to the fact our best offensive player is on IR and lost for the year and Matts safety valve (Moeaki) is also done for the year.

1) bracket Bowe
2) blitz
3) drop into zones, but show blitz
4) watch his eyes, he only goes through two reads and his release is slow enough to give you a good break on the ball.

thats it.


I hope 14 more teams are smart enough to know it, too. Its time to move the fuck on from the Cassel era and go into either the Stanzi era or if we are Lucky, the Luck era.

thank God

Psyko Tek
09-21-2011, 07:28 PM
You knew who i was talking about.

no, I don't
can somebody get Skip back
n00bs like this need schooled

thurman merman
09-21-2011, 08:05 PM
Thank you thought is appreciated.

LMAO

thurman merman
09-21-2011, 08:07 PM
Metts Cassells a won good blay won batt blay guy I like him heez nice. He vizit us atts horizon academy today cool. I like chikken zaled.

ROFL

thurman merman
09-21-2011, 08:08 PM
cassells last too proformances we're crappy

ROFLROFL

thurman merman
09-21-2011, 08:13 PM
Have you watched the Packers O-Line?

The Saints?

The Texans?

The Eagles?

Those are just some of the teams that have O-Lines of similar quality, and their QBs make plays.

You are absolutely right. The Chiefs offensive line isn't nearly bad enough to blame Cassel's suck on them. The Packers o-line last year was awful, and Aaron Rodgers lit EVERYBODY up, including the best defense in the NFL in the Super Bowl. A truly great quarterback knows how to work with subpar linemen.

Marcellus
09-21-2011, 08:28 PM
You are absolutely right. The Chiefs offensive line isn't nearly bad enough to blame Cassel's suck on them. The Packers o-line last year was awful, and Aaron Rodgers lit EVERYBODY up, including the best defense in the NFL in the Super Bowl. A truly great quarterback knows how to work with subpar linemen.

Cassel's only true ability is the ability to take a beating. Too bad he can't do anything between the snap and the beating.

BCD
09-21-2011, 08:34 PM
Patteeu should stick to DC. Obvious reasons...

BCD
09-21-2011, 08:39 PM
Yes - Cassel SUCKS because he SUCKS! We agree there.

The OL also sucks, and because of that Cassel sucks worse. Compound problem. We don't agree there.

Cassel SUCKS, and because of that he sometimes makes the OL look like it sucks worse than it actually does. - I think we agree there too.

So, 2 out of 3 ain't bad - I'll take it! :thumb:You should probably watch more teams with good QBs. This line is not that bad.

Marcellus
09-21-2011, 08:41 PM
You should probably watch more teams with good QBs. This line is not that bad.

Not the first 2 games this year.

We handled Suh like he was shit.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 09:23 PM
You said, and I quote, again,



That is clear to me.

I don't see how I can read that any other way other than as assigning blame to the O-Line as a reason for Cassel's shortcomings.

Then I'm not sure I can help you. If I had said that the only reason the Chiefs use short drops and throw short passes is to compensate for the line, then you'd be justified in thinking that I believed it was the only reason. But when we're talking about offensive line play and I say that they use short drops and throw short passes to compensate, it doesn't mean that that has to be the exclusive reason they do so. And since I have explained to you on several occasions in this thread that (a) I don't blame the line for Cassel's problems but instead think that both the line and Cassel have problems and that (b) I specifically meant in that post that that was only one of multiple possible reasons they were using such passes, you have to be pretty dense not to get it by now. Sorry to be blunt.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 09:24 PM
No, we don't disagree on the roll of the O-Line in the overall suckage department.

I don't expect Matt Cassel to be Aaron Rodgers, whose play masks the deficiencies of his O-Line.

I do expect Matt Cassel to make plays when the O-Line gives him the time to make plays, and he is not doing that.

Where we disagree is how bad this O-Line is.

Are they great?

Hell no.

But neither are they as bad as you are portraying them.

Matt Cassel doesn't suck because the O-Line sucks.

Matt Cassel sucks because Matt Cassel sucks.

They're not as good as you're portraying them. See how easy it is to say that.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 09:25 PM
Good luck trying to explain to patteeu what he said. It doesn't work in the DC forum, and probably won't work here either. He only concentrates on things that agree with what he is trying to put forth.

Patteeu should stick to DC. Obvious reasons...

Butthurt has entered the thread. Welcome to the party.

milkman
09-21-2011, 09:32 PM
Then I'm not sure I can help you. If I had said that the only reason the Chiefs use short drops and throw short passes is to compensate for the line, then you'd be justified in thinking that I believed it was the only reason. But when we're talking about offensive line play and I say that they use short drops and throw short passes to compensate, it doesn't mean that that has to be the exclusive reason they do so. And since I have explained to you on several occasions in this thread that (a) I don't blame the line for Cassel's problems but instead think that both the line and Cassel have problems and that (b) I specifically meant in that post that that was only one of multiple possible reasons they were using such passes, you have to be pretty dense not to get it by now. Sorry to be blunt.

And I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that a QB that gets time in the pocket on over 70% of his drop backs is not not being made to look bad, in any way, shape, or form by his O-Line.

The O-Line is not one of multiple reasons.

Mat Cassel is the only reason.

Lbedrock1
09-21-2011, 09:44 PM
no, I don't
can somebody get Skip back
n00bs like this need schooled

Check your dates I have been here a little longer than you. Not a noob.

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:04 PM
And I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that a QB that gets time in the pocket on over 70% of his drop backs is not not being made to look bad, in any way, shape, or form by his O-Line.

The O-Line is not one of multiple reasons.

Mat Cassel is the only reason.

I disagree with your glorification of the offensive line. And I continue to reject your attempts to change my argument into one that blames the line for Cassel's problems.

BCD
09-21-2011, 11:14 PM
Butthurt has entered the thread. Welcome to the party.

Butthurt? OK. :)

You and I argued over Cassel last season. This POS QB has proven me right.

Keep making excuses for Cassel...

patteeu
09-21-2011, 11:21 PM
Butthurt? OK. :)

You and I argued over Cassel last season. This POS QB has proven me right.

Keep making excuses for Cassel...

Keep failing at comprehension. :thumb:

SNR
09-21-2011, 11:39 PM
They're not as good as you're portraying them. See how easy it is to say that.
The offensive line:
1) Usually provides slightly more than 4 seconds' worth of protection for Cassel
2) Is performing at a level that lets our RBs average 5.5 YPC (but we'll see how that changes next week with Jamaal out for his first entire game)
3) Played phenomenally well against Ndamukong fucking Suh
4) Has some work to do and could stand to improve, like ALL positions on EVERY NFL team

Matt Cassel:
1) Can't read defenses
2) Couldn't throw a good timing route if his family's lives depended on it
3) Often misses wide open receivers DOWN THE FIELD
4) Doesn't throw to our best WR nearly enough because he's stupid and sucks at playing football
5) Doesn't have good accuracy
6) Is inconsistent on his touch
7) Takes more sacks than Damon fucking Huard
8) Has the ability to recover quickly from appendicitis


IN CONCLUSION

Our offense sucks the big one. Matt Cassel is more than 95% at fault for this. The offensive line needs to get better, but has gotten ZERO help from his QB and the coaching staff.

So why you're even talking about the offensive line as a legitimate reason for this offense sucking ass is questionable. Highly questionable. Almost as questionable as Matt Cassel throwing a bubble screen to a covered Dexter McCluster on 3rd and 7.

patteeu
09-22-2011, 06:45 AM
The offensive line needs to get better, but has gotten ZERO help from his QB and the coaching staff.

OMG, I can't believe you're blaming the offensive line for Matt Cassel's problems.

patteeu
09-22-2011, 06:52 AM
BTW, using GoChief's terminology, Matt Cassel has a "positive" rating on PFF after two games. Of course, it's barely positive and it's less positive than 29 other QBs in the league.

Coogs
09-22-2011, 08:18 AM
They're not as good as you're portraying them. See how easy it is to say that.

They gave him nearly a half an hour to get off a hail mary pass. He got sacked. :hmmm:

patteeu
09-22-2011, 08:21 AM
They gave him nearly a half an hour to get off a hail mary pass. He got sacked. :hmmm:

Cassel wasn't good on that play and the line did well. Is that your entire case?

Coogs
09-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Cassel wasn't good on that play and the line did well. Is that your entire case?

No. It is just a microcosm of his play in general.

I wish gochiefs would gif up this play from the preseason vs the Ravens...

12:10 2nd KC 1st & 15 at Bal36 Matt Cassel incomplete pass to the left intended for Dwayne Bowe.

...and if you look at this play, you see exactly what we have in Matt Cassel. A bit of pressure, and he panics. Breaston is breaking free right in his field of vision for an easy TD. Yet, Cassel forces the ball to a tightly covered Bowe along the sideline. The good QB's of the league hit Breaston. You see it happen every week.

Then, after the play, you see Breaston talking to Cassel. And sure enough on the next play Cassel locks onto Breaston and throws him an out patten to the right sideline. Called it from my couch to my son that Breaston was going to get the next play.

Chiefnj2
09-22-2011, 08:27 AM
They gave him nearly a half an hour to get off a hail mary pass. He got sacked. :hmmm:

I thought that Albert got beat bad forcing Cassel to move. I thought Cassel then had more than adequate time to get rid of the pass and he blew it, but IIRC there was initial pressure.

patteeu
09-22-2011, 09:11 AM
No. It is just a microcosm of his play in general.

I wish gochiefs would gif up this play from the preseason vs the Ravens...

12:10 2nd KC 1st & 15 at Bal36 Matt Cassel incomplete pass to the left intended for Dwayne Bowe.

...and if you look at this play, you see exactly what we have in Matt Cassel. A bit of pressure, and he panics. Breaston is breaking free right in his field of vision for an easy TD. Yet, Cassel forces the ball to a tightly covered Bowe along the sideline. The good QB's of the league hit Breaston. You see it happen every week.

Then, after the play, you see Breaston talking to Cassel. And sure enough on the next play Cassel locks onto Breaston and throws him an out patten to the right sideline. Called it from my couch to my son that Breaston was going to get the next play.

I understand what we have in Cassel. That play isn't a microcosm, it's one end of the Cassel spectrum. It's also not a microcosm of the offensive line play.

Coogs
09-22-2011, 10:14 AM
I understand what we have in Cassel. That play isn't a microcosm, it's one end of the Cassel spectrum. It's also not a microcosm of the offensive line play.

It's the end of the spectrum that Cassels play is heavily tilted towards. And as far as the o-line goes it is close, as nj is probaly correct in his analysis of the play.

Last season Cassel was instructed to throw it away. No sacks, no int's. We heard that on more than one occasion from Haley and Wies. No negative plays.

And that was all fine... when we were not behind and had to rely on Cassel to make plays (sans the 2nd half against Denver at Denver).

The results on Cassel are really already in. We have seen the same thing for all of his tenur here. If he is asked to carry the team... or the team needs him to bail them out... it's most likely not going to happen. Not always, but most likely. If you can have the defense, special teams, and the rest of the offense win the game, and just ask Cassel not to lose it... then he is sufficient given the first three things are happening.

patteeu
09-22-2011, 10:33 AM
It's the end of the spectrum that Cassels play is heavily tilted towards. And as far as the o-line goes it is close, as nj is probaly correct in his analysis of the play.

Last season Cassel was instructed to throw it away. No sacks, no int's. We heard that on more than one occasion from Haley and Wies. No negative plays.

And that was all fine... when we were not behind and had to rely on Cassel to make plays (sans the 2nd half against Denver at Denver).

The results on Cassel are really already in. We have seen the same thing for all of his tenur here. If he is asked to carry the team... or the team needs him to bail them out... it's most likely not going to happen. Not always, but most likely. If you can have the defense, special teams, and the rest of the offense win the game, and just ask Cassel not to lose it... then he is sufficient given the first three things are happening.

Yeah, like I said, I understand what we have in Cassel.

Pioli Zombie
10-02-2011, 06:53 PM
I happy Mitt Cizzel good guy have game that win he. Fight with coach. Me funny when happen. I pooped.

SNR
10-02-2011, 06:55 PM
I happy Mitt Cizzel good guy have game that win he. Fight with coach. Me funny when happen. I pooped.i lik jack off cows all your base r belong to us cassel gud

Pioli Zombie
10-02-2011, 07:33 PM
We won an thre now so deffision can still win.