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Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 10:41 AM
Why when the economy is so down and jobs are hard to come by, People become less willing to work and be honest about their work?


In the last 6 weeks, I have had to hire and fire 5 onsite techs. Things from No call/No Shows to cheating the time system and mileage numbers.

We drug screen and back ground check each applicant, before they go out to the school districts.

What sucks is these guys were on pace to make about $45K or more this year with the amount of work that is out there.

Yet they dont want to work, cheat and or just do show up for work...

Why can we find US employees who want to work?

Anyone having this trouble? I have a 3pm meeting were I have to cut two guys today for cheating the client on time. Its frustrating to say the least...

Sofa King
09-21-2011, 10:43 AM
Stress and stupidity.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 10:44 AM
I am stressed to the max for them being stupid....

I have my biggest client coming in today for a meeting to discuss these guys... Sure makes for a tense day...

allen_kcCard
09-21-2011, 10:46 AM
Why when the economy is so down and jobs are hard to come by, People become less willing to work and be honest about their work?


In the last 6 weeks, I have had to hire and fire 5 onsite techs. Things from No call/No Shows to cheating the time system and mileage numbers.

We drug screen and back ground check each applicant, before they go out to the school districts.

What sucks is these guys were on pace to make about $45K or more this year with the amount of work that is out there.

Yet they dont want to work, cheat and or just do show up for work...

Why can we find US employees who want to work?

Anyone having this trouble? I have a 3pm meeting were I have to cut two guys today for cheating the client on time. Its frustrating to say the least...

Looking for anyone that could so some work on a part time basis? :P

I am in a job where I work a 5-5-4 scedule, so I am offshift for 5 and 4 days at a time on a set rotation. My kids are both in school now, so I'd thought about getting a flexible part time job since I don't have a little one to keep at home on my days off.

vailpass
09-21-2011, 10:46 AM
Is 45k a competitive comp package for these type of people?

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Is 45k a competitive comp package for these type of people?

For an onsite IT tech... Yeah that is very nice in the OKC metro and out lying areas...

NaptownChief
09-21-2011, 10:50 AM
This has nothing to do with the economy...bottom line is there is a tremendous amount of human debris floating around regardless of the countries economic state.

vailpass
09-21-2011, 10:52 AM
For an onsite IT tech... Yeah that is very nice in the OKC metro and out lying areas...

Just asking because it seemed pretty low.

If it isn't the compensation what are you doing wrong?

Brock
09-21-2011, 10:58 AM
45k isn't exactly going to lure the best and brightest.

Zeke
09-21-2011, 11:01 AM
It may be stereotyping, so be it.... but a lot of IT people are extremely lazy. I've worked with so many lazy bums over the past dozen years that it makes me sick.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:02 AM
45k isn't exactly going to lure the best and brightest.

What would recommed for a level I broke fix technician then?

evenfall
09-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Sorry to hear about these issues. It's tough with the economy bad, people get desperate and dishonest.

I would take a hard look at the screening process. Background checks don't show these kinds of problems. What you need to see are performance reviews and references from previous employers. Of course, this is not always completely possible, anything could conceivably be fabricated, but probing for things like past manager and customer phone references and verifying reasons for leaving might tell stories.

It's always a guess to a degree, but with such a string of bad hires, something more needs to happen... I don't think its probably compensation if you are near market. There are too many good people not working who have kids to feed to not be able to find them. Best of luck.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Just asking because it seemed pretty low.

If it isn't the compensation what are you doing wrong?
Well I did say 45K or more...

Brock
09-21-2011, 11:04 AM
What would recommed for a level I broke fix technician then?

The wages may be entirely appropriate, but that doesn't change the fact that your best employees are probably going to be entry level guys that are just trying to get started. Experienced, reliable guys aren't going to line up for that money.

Lumpy
09-21-2011, 11:05 AM
Perhaps they just don't like working for a ReeTodd. :)

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:06 AM
Sorry to hear about these issues. It's tough with the economy bad, people get desperate and dishonest.

I would take a hard look at the screening process. Background checks don't show these kinds of problems. What you need to see are performance reviews and references from previous employers. Of course, this is not always completely possible, anything could conceivably be fabricated, but probing for things like past manager and customer phone references and verifying reasons for leaving might tell stories.

It's always a guess to a degree, but with such a string of bad hires, something more needs to happen... I don't think its probably compensation if you are near market. There are too many good people not working who have kids to feed to not be able to find them. Best of luck.

Yeah thats the thing.. The last round of hires we interviewed 17 people and choose 2 based on references and checks.

Just like with the guys in my overseas service center, We involve the client heavily in the screening process, we did the same with all of these guys as well.

I guess people are just desperate for that extra buck. Showing up onsite at a school at 1 pm leaving at 3:40 and billing the client 8 hours is just wrong no matter how you justify it...

vailpass
09-21-2011, 11:07 AM
Well I did say 45K or more...

Forgive me, I worded the question poorly.
If you are satisfied that the compensation level is not the cause of your employee issues then the cause must lie elsewhere.
What are you doing wrong that you could do better?

Could you look to different sources to attract better quality employees i.e. a competitor?
Could you implement a training/orientation session for new hires that lays down rules, expectations, consequences clearly?
Could you look to the best performing company in your industry and benchmark their personnel processes?
Could you hold one-on-one sessions with your people and ask them what they like and don't like about their job?

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:08 AM
The wages may be entirely appropriate, but that doesn't change the fact that your best employees are probably going to be entry level guys that are just trying to get started. Experienced, reliable guys aren't going to line up for that money.

I have been in the IT industry since 1995... I wouldnt like up for that money...

I see that point you are making and IF the client continues with US IT guys, I will pass that on to him....

Dayze
09-21-2011, 11:09 AM
I've considered the IT industry, and getting the necessary training to enter into it within the next 2 years or so. ....but i have no idea about the industry in terms of what discipline to get into.

hmm.
Maybe I'll call you in 2 years lol.

Saulbadguy
09-21-2011, 11:09 AM
Sounds like you need to screen your employees better.

evenfall
09-21-2011, 11:13 AM
If they are only working a couple of hours, maybe they are checking out early because they are bored. Stealing from the client is automatic termination of course, but maybe they would be more satisfied if they had more to do?

I feel that often the difference between bad/average employees and average/good ones is providing an appropriate level of challenge and keeping the stream of satisfying work steady. Good people can turn bad or vice versa, on those items.

I like what vailpass said. Talk with the ones you trust and see what they like and don't like.

Stryker
09-21-2011, 11:13 AM
First off, he said they were on their way to making $45k = "have an opportunity to make". For an onsite tech, that is a ton of money. The only lazy techs are "young" techs. I have been in IT for over 20 years. I have seen first hand the laziness in young techs. The part that is hard to get over is the cheating of the client by over charging. Usually, the owner is upset that the tech did not charge enough!

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:13 AM
Sounds like you need to screen your employees better.

You have some tips on that?

Fish
09-21-2011, 11:16 AM
Sounds like you need to screen your employees better.

This. And perhaps you're giving them too much unsupervised time.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:16 AM
If they are only working a couple of hours, maybe they are checking out early because they are bored. Stealing from the client is automatic termination of course, but maybe they would be more satisfied if they had more to do?

I feel that often the difference between bad/average employees and average/good ones is providing an appropriate level of challenge and keeping the stream of satisfying work steady. Good people can turn bad or vice versa, on those items.

I like what vailpass said. Talk with the ones you trust and see what they like and don't like.

My client services over 25 school districts in the state of OK. There are over 4000 PC's and 125 Servers under his umbrella. Most of the schools are going through a 2k3 to 2k8 domain migration. Lack of work isnt the issue. These guys could work 60 hours a week every week if they wanted.

He has 3 onsite techs and 3 offsite techs for phone support and helpdesk support.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:19 AM
This. And perhaps you're giving them too much unsupervised time.

Remember I am just the staffing company, but yes they have alot of unsupervised time.

For instance, Tech could be at school A today and school B tomorrow, while traveling an hour over to School C on friday.

They dont get paid their hourly wage during drive time, but the client gives them the mileage rate while on the road.

Which 60 miles at .51 a mile = about $31 an hour while driving...

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:20 AM
First off, he said they were on their way to making $45k = "have an opportunity to make". For an onsite tech, that is a ton of money. The only lazy techs are "young" techs. I have been in IT for over 20 years. I have seen first hand the laziness in young techs. The part that is hard to get over is the cheating of the client by over charging. Usually, the owner is upset that the tech did not charge enough!


Yes with the hourly rate and mileage reimbursement they are well on their way to 45K+ and one was going to push about $52K.... I just took their average a month...

Predarat
09-21-2011, 11:25 AM
Maybe the wrong things are being looked at, alot of people who do hiring for IT jobs look too much at the tech skills, not realiablity and work eithic. Yes you have to have the skills but their are other things to consider too. Around here a job like that for 45K would get alot of good candidates.

vailpass
09-21-2011, 11:27 AM
You are the staffing agency that the employer goes through? Not surprising they don't respect your policies or procedures. That's a whole different dynamic. They don't see you as their employer.

nstygma
09-21-2011, 11:31 AM
Maybe the wrong things are being looked at, alot of people who do hiring for IT jobs look too much at the tech skills, not realiablity and work eithic. Yes you have to have the skills but their are other things to consider too. Around here a job like that for 45K would get alot of good candidates.OP, how do you screen for integrity?

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 11:31 AM
You are the staffing agency that the employer goes through? Not surprising they don't respect your policies or procedures. That's a whole different dynamic. They don't see you as their employer.

Actually the polices and procedures they have to follow are the clients... Not so much ours.

When we hire a tech, they get half day orientation on how we expect them to handle themselves infront of our clients...

Then my clients gives them a 2 day orientation on how he expects them to act and treat his clients...

Predarat
09-21-2011, 11:42 AM
OP, how do you screen for integrity?

Thats hard to measure but look at length of employment. Someone that has been with the same employer(s) for 3 or more years should be a decent bet. Usually lack of integrity rears its head after 6 months or so.

vailpass
09-21-2011, 12:03 PM
Actually the polices and procedures they have to follow are the clients... Not so much ours.

When we hire a tech, they get half day orientation on how we expect them to handle themselves infront of our clients...

Then my clients gives them a 2 day orientation on how he expects them to act and treat his clients...

I understand your frustration. It doesn't sound like the techs are committed to either you or your client. Maybe they feel like they aren't really a member of either one of your teams.

Sygerrik
09-21-2011, 12:19 PM
Remember I am just the staffing company, but yes they have alot of unsupervised time.

For instance, Tech could be at school A today and school B tomorrow, while traveling an hour over to School C on friday.

They dont get paid their hourly wage during drive time, but the client gives them the mileage rate while on the road.

Which 60 miles at .51 a mile = about $31 an hour while driving...

Are these techs exempt or 1099? If they aren't, and they are driving for their principal work activity during the work day, you are probably violating labor laws by not paying them for their time.

Might explain some of the behavior.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Are these techs exempt or 1099? If they aren't, and they are driving for their principal work activity during the work day, you are probably violating labor laws by not paying them for their time.

Might explain some of the behavior.

They are 1099...

Saulbadguy
09-21-2011, 12:39 PM
You have some tips on that?

Personality test.

Otter
09-21-2011, 12:43 PM
I deal with these guys quiet a bit when we send them on site to install pre-configured routers, switches, APs, digis and stuff like that. They've all been pretty good at showing up but they don't seem to be getting any better at what they do after almost three years however.

Considering the job market I'd be doing some introspection and digging as to why these guys are dropping if it's a regular problem. From my experience that's a symptom of people hating showing up for work.

Just a guess.

Sygerrik
09-21-2011, 01:45 PM
So potentially $45k/yr, on a 1099 basis, but that includes the mileage reimbursement? I know you are looking for better ways to screen people here, but a pay bump might be a better solution. I've been contracting in IT for 15 years, that seems very low to me.

ElGringo
09-21-2011, 02:08 PM
When I worked through a staffing company in Wichita I worked hard and enjoyed my work. The biggest problem I had was after working for the staffing company for 3 years in the same position, I still could not question my boss on anything. I had to question the staffing company who would then question my boss. I learned to dislike that kind of work.

The other problem I had was the lack of benefits, vacation time, or any other incentive to work hard for that staffing company. I would think after the first year of working for them I would get sick pay or vacation time or something, but no. I don't know about the situation you are talking about, but if it was anything like mine, no, no hard working, honest, reliable person will want to go to work for no benefits when that same person can get paid to sit at home and do nothing.

Saulbadguy
09-21-2011, 02:09 PM
They are 1099...

Reported.

jidar
09-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Why when the economy is so down and jobs are hard to come by, People become less willing to work and be honest about their work?


In the last 6 weeks, I have had to hire and fire 5 onsite techs. Things from No call/No Shows to cheating the time system and mileage numbers.

We drug screen and back ground check each applicant, before they go out to the school districts.

What sucks is these guys were on pace to make about $45K or more this year with the amount of work that is out there.

Yet they dont want to work, cheat and or just do show up for work...

Why can we find US employees who want to work?

Anyone having this trouble? I have a 3pm meeting were I have to cut two guys today for cheating the client on time. Its frustrating to say the least...

Well I don't know, but I'm trying to imagine myself in their position...
If I were to lose my job in IT, I might end up taking a job like yours.
Why would I quit or not give a shit? Because you're paying half what I make now.

jidar
09-21-2011, 02:12 PM
For an onsite IT tech... Yeah that is very nice in the OKC metro and out lying areas...

I find that hard to believe.
You're in KC, not Detroit.

Reerun_KC
09-21-2011, 03:32 PM
I find that hard to believe.
You're in KC, not Detroit.


I am in OKC, OK....

DRU
09-21-2011, 05:32 PM
45k is the 25% tax bracket, so now you're down to roughly $34k already. Then you gotta pay self-employment tax as a 1099 contractor to cover what you would typically be paying (which is probably why you prefer 1099ing all your guys) so that's going to take another big bite out of their salary.

So then they'll have to figure out how to itemize deductions and probably get a tax guy to make sure it's all done correctly, and that costs money (unless your IT guys happen to be tax pro's, too). And most of them probably won't be saving those checks you give them to pay taxes with so they'll just end up with a big problem at the end of the year.

As an IT person, when all of that gets thrown in the mix, you quickly start thinking why am I doing this for this guy? I'm paying all of the taxes, I should just do this myself.

Many give up quick and do just that. If you want people to stick around you gotta get them on your payroll so they have a nice, comfortable, guaranteed check every 2 weeks with all the taxes already taken care.