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vailpass
09-27-2011, 12:04 PM
I'm lifting for tone more than bulk, doing the standard push/pull muscle splits. Wondering what groups other people work together.

I had these splits reccomended to me,what to you think? (cardio not included here). What do you do?

Day 1-Chest & Bicep/Forearm
2-Back & Tricep
3-Rest
4-Legs & core
5-Shoulders
6-Rest
7-Legs & core

Rooster
09-27-2011, 12:06 PM
Push vs pull.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 12:07 PM
Push vs pull.

You mean?

Chest/Back
Bicep/Tricep
Shoulder/Leg

petegz28
09-27-2011, 12:07 PM
Push vs pull.

THIS.

Monday - Chest, triceps and shoulders
Tuesday - Cardio or rest
Wednesday - Legs\Abs
Thursday - Cardio or rest
Friday - biceps and back

petegz28
09-27-2011, 12:10 PM
You mean?

Chest/Back
Bicep/Tricep
Shoulder/Leg

Push is every exercise that pushes...bench press, dumbell press, dips, chest butterflys, tricep pushes, etc

Pull is curls, lat pulls, rows, dumbell butterflys, etc

It's a very good system in my opinion

4th and Long
09-27-2011, 12:10 PM
You mean?

Chest/Back
Bicep/Tricep
Shoulder/Leg
I think it was a masterbation joke. :p

petegz28
09-27-2011, 12:13 PM
I think it was a masterbation joke. :p

As funny as it does sound, push\pull is a legit weight lifting system that is used widely.

Actually it sounds more official if you call it "push-legs-pull"...

Ok, even that one can have some irony to it

jspchief
09-27-2011, 12:14 PM
THIS.

Monday - Chest, triceps and shoulders
Tuesday - Cardio or rest
Wednesday - Legs\Abs
Thursday - Cardio or rest
Friday - biceps and back Some variation of this. Most importantly chest and triceps together, and back and biceps together.

Reason being that chest also works triceps, so doing them on separate days cuts into your triceps recovery time. Same with back working biceps

eazyb81
09-27-2011, 12:20 PM
Chest/Tris
Back/Bis
Legs/Shoulders

I have always done my split this way. Now that I type this out though, maybe that means I should switch it up a bit.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 12:22 PM
You are now officially a brah! Congrats man.

I prefer this

Chest/Triceps
Legs/Biceps - I hate legs, so I reward myself with biceps on that day.
Shoulders/Traps
Back/Core

Since I use my Tri's more on Chest and Shoulders day I try to seperate them out. I like having fresh tri's when chest day arrives.

Sofa King
09-27-2011, 12:35 PM
hand/beer
my weiner/Buck's mom's vagina


In that order.

Josh Lewin the Jew
09-27-2011, 01:41 PM
20-17 ROFL

Aspengc8
09-27-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm lifting for tone more than bulk...

You can do any routine that you want, they all work provided you stick to it. Tone vs bulk is all about calories. You dont lift for tone, you reduce bodyfat...

petegz28
09-27-2011, 02:07 PM
You can do any routine that you want, they all work provided you stick to it. Tone vs bulk is all about calories. You dont lift for tone, you reduce bodyfat...

I disagree with that to a point. Lifting will help tone. Resistance training of some kind will always help tone. I know plenty of skinny people that are not "toned", they are just thin and flabby.

Brock
09-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Lifting for tone is a meaningless term for fat housewives. You mean you want to cut fat so that your muscles are more visible in detail.

Pawnmower
09-27-2011, 02:15 PM
THIS.

Monday - Chest, triceps and shoulders
Tuesday - Cardio or rest
Wednesday - Legs\Abs
Thursday - Cardio or rest
Friday - biceps and back

this

petegz28
09-27-2011, 02:23 PM
Lifting for tone is a meaningless term for fat housewives. You mean you want to cut fat so that your muscles are more visible in detail.

Lifting for tone, no. Lifting to help tone, yes. Lifting works the fat out of the muscles as well as burns calories thus making you leaner overall. Any good toning program, imo, should include some sort of resistance training as a secondary focus with cardio being the primary focus, of course.

I am old school, I don't believe in all the crap toys they sell on TV or the 15 minutes to a beach body program. You want to be toned up? Do a buttload of cardio 4-5 times a week and throw in 2-3 sessions of some not too light but not too heavy lifting.

And since most people mean "I want a flat belly" when they say they want to be "toned", DON'T FOCUS ON YOUR ABS, ffs! I have seen and know people who do crunches until they lose count, leg lifts, twists, this, that, the other thing, all focusing on their abs and they are no thinner.

Omaha
09-27-2011, 02:24 PM
You mean?

Chest/Back
Bicep/Tricep
Shoulder/Leg

I do something very similar:

Chest/Back
Shoulder/Bicep/Tricep
Legs
Core

I mix in plyometrics, cardio, yoga, & pilates on the days in between.

When I'm ready to switch it up, I do this:

Chest/Tri
Back/Bi
Shoulders
Legs

Mix in the same stuff, but I do a shorter core workout 3-4 times a week in addition.

Oh Snap
09-27-2011, 02:29 PM
Stats: 6'3 227 8% body fat

Mon-Fri (thur, sat, sun off)
Chest/triceps
Back/biceps
Shoulders/abs
Off
Legs
Off
Off

I usually kill my legs on Friday, so its always good to do legs on the last day of your workout for the week. Remember that 70% of all your bodies muscles are in your legs. So recovery is crucial.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 02:33 PM
Stats: 6'3 227 8% body fat

Mon-Fri (thur, sat, sun off)
Chest/triceps
Back/biceps
Shoulders/abs
Off
Legs
Off
Off

I think that is the way to go. I don't understand why someone would work their biceps and triceps in the same day? For one you are taking energy away from yourself and not getting the full benefit of the exercise. Two, you are risking injury a lot more than if you were just focusing on one or the other.

Peope tend to think of working their arms in the same manner they work their legs, meaning doing the entire limb at once. Legs are the largest muscles in the body and can take that sort of abuse. Arms are more fragile and should be isolated. That goes for chest and back as well.

That's just me anyway and most of the trainers and gym-rats I have talked too all say the same.

Omaha
09-27-2011, 02:34 PM
Lifting for tone, no. Lifting to help tone, yes. Lifting works the fat out of the muscles as well as burns calories thus making you leaner overall. Any good toning program, imo, should include some sort of resistance training as a secondary focus with cardio being the primary focus, of course.

I am old school, I don't believe in all the crap toys they sell on TV or the 15 minutes to a beach body program. You want to be toned up? Do a buttload of cardio 4-5 times a week and throw in 2-3 sessions of some not too light but not too heavy lifting.

And since most people mean "I want a flat belly" when they say they want to be "toned", DON'T FOCUS ON YOUR ABS, ffs! I have seen and know people who do crunches until they lose count, leg lifts, twists, this, that, the other thing, all focusing on their abs and they are no thinner.

I agree with a lot of this. I do, however, believe that diet & lifting are the two most important things when trying to lose fat. Also, don't be afraid to go heavy. You will need to break down the muscle tissue to get the benefit.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 02:38 PM
I agree with a lot of this. I do, however, believe that diet & lifting are the two most important things when trying to lose fat. Also, don't be afraid to go heavy. You will need to break down the muscle tissue to get the benefit.

Diet is 60%-70% of how you are going to look. I had a trainer tell me that years ago. No matter how much you exercise, if you are not eating right you won't lose the gut. You'll just have rock hard muscles under your fat. I push myself when I lift but I am not a "power lifter" per say. I increase weight each set and by the 3rd set I can usually only get 6-8 reps instead of my target 12. When I can get 12 I start upping the weight some more.

People get this idea if they start lifting they are going to bulk up like a gorrilla. They don't realize just how hard that is to do and since they want more of the swimmer's build they stay away from proper lifting, imo.

I just got my wife started lifting a couple months ago and on a high protein diet. She was so afraid she was going to bulk up. Now she is figuring out that the lifting is helping her slim down.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 02:44 PM
I agree with a lot of this. I do, however, believe that diet & lifting are the two most important things when trying to lose fat. Also, don't be afraid to go heavy. You will need to break down the muscle tissue to get the benefit.

Lifting weights does very little at all to burn fat. It's about 80-90% diet and 10% cardio.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 02:45 PM
Diet is 60%-70% of how you are going to look. I had a trainer tell me that years ago. No matter how much you exercise, if you are not eating right you won't lose the gut. You'll just have rock hard muscles under your fat. I push myself when I lift but I am not a "power lifter" per say. I increase weight each set and by the 3rd set I can usually only get 6-8 reps instead of my target 12. When I can get 12 I start upping the weight some more.

People get this idea if they start lifting they are going to bulk up like a gorrilla. They don't realize just how hard that is to do and since they want more of the swimmer's build they stay away from proper lifting, imo.

I just got my wife started lifting a couple months ago and on a high protein diet. She was so afraid she was going to bulk up. Now she is figuring out that the lifting is helping her slim down.

I would say how you are going to look is about 50% genetics, 40% diet and 10% training. You can probably figure chemicals in there somewhere if you want, but look no further then a prison yard to figure out genetics is king where guys all eat the same thing. Diet is a huge part of maximizing what your potential is.

Oh Snap
09-27-2011, 02:48 PM
I think that is the way to go. I don't understand why someone would work their biceps and triceps in the same day?

They don't know any better. Compound lifts will actually work your Bi's and Tri's the best. But in collaboration with Isolation, you get a better pump and tear down of the actual muscle fiber. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish though. Gaining muscle mass, or toning up.

Recovery and proper nutrition is crucial though.

Peope tend to think of working their arms in the same manner they work their legs, meaning doing the entire limb at once. Legs are the largest muscles in the body and can take that sort of abuse. Arms are more fragile and should be isolated. That goes for chest and back as well.

I do not do anything other than legs on legs day. I also dont bother much in doing cardio, but again, my body fat % is 8%. My workouts also usually last 2hrs. But I am a gym rat. One of the finer highs in life, and you dont need needles. Im addicted to this shit!

penguinz
09-27-2011, 02:50 PM
Mon: Chest
Tue: Biceps/Triceps/Core
Wed: Legs
Thurs: Shoulders
Fri: Back/Core

As far as cardio... I ref about 12 soccer games a week and run at minimum 1.5 miles a game up to about 6 miles a game.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 03:35 PM
You are now officially a brah! Congrats man.

I prefer this

Chest/Triceps
Legs/Biceps - I hate legs, so I reward myself with biceps on that day.
Shoulders/Traps
Back/Core

Since I use my Tri's more on Chest and Shoulders day I try to seperate them out. I like having fresh tri's when chest day arrives.

LMAO Thanks man but I'll never achieve brah status. I've been going to the gym for a few years now but mainly on the spin and cycle side. going to lift 5 days/week instead of 3 for the next 3 months just for a change.
Appreciate the input.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 03:39 PM
Lifting for tone is a meaningless term for fat housewives. You mean you want to cut fat so that your muscles are more visible in detail.

Maybe I said it wrong. I don't have any fat to speak of but do not want to bulk up. I lift light weight/multi reps for definition and strength.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 03:42 PM
Stats: 6'3 227 8% body fat

Mon-Fri (thur, sat, sun off)
Chest/triceps
Back/biceps
Shoulders/abs
Off
Legs
Off
Off

I usually kill my legs on Friday, so its always good to do legs on the last day of your workout for the week. Remember that 70% of all your bodies muscles are in your legs. So recovery is crucial.

I did legs last week and worked in the hack squat pretty heavy, don't usually lift legs except for machines because I cycle a lot. Then went upstairs and did 8 miles on precor.
Went to walk downstairs and my legs wouldn't bend, almost fell down the godamned stairs.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 03:44 PM
Lifting weights does very little at all to burn fat. It's about 80-90% diet and 10% cardio.

I hear you although a pound of muscle burns 10-20 calories/hour, a pound of fat burns 5 calories/hour so from the standpoint that the more muscle you have the more fat you burn lifting wieghts does help you burn fat.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 03:49 PM
Maybe I said it wrong. I don't have any fat to speak of but do not want to bulk up. I lift light weight/multi reps for definition and strength.

You do tear down different muscle fibers lifting 15 difficult reps then 5 difficult reps, but if you are just going light because you are worried about being jacked then don't worry. Just get in there and work hard and change up the routine. If you aren't roiding or eating above maintenance you aren't going to be "bulky".

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 03:52 PM
I hear you although a pound of muscle burns 10-20 calories/hour, a pound of fat burns 5 calories/hour so from the standpoint that the more muscle you have the more fat you burn lifting wieghts does help you burn fat.

No it doesn't. (My Donger impression).

Depending on the study a lb of muscle burns about 5-30 calories per day.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 03:58 PM
No it doesn't. (My Donger impression).

Depending on the study a lb of muscle burns about 5-30 calories per day.

Not arguing with you but isn't 10-20 a subset within 5-30? Either way muscle burn more calories than fat, yes?

Donger wouldn't say "no it doesn't".
Donger would say "does it? Why do you say that?" :)

petegz28
09-27-2011, 04:01 PM
Lifting weights does very little at all to burn fat. It's about 80-90% diet and 10% cardio.

I tend to disagree ....to a point. If all you did was lift I woud agree. However, lifting does burn the fat out of your muscles and it does take energy to lift so you are burning calories, though not at the rate of cardio I agree.

That being said, a combo of lifting first then cardio after I think is the best method to building muscle and losing fat...which is what most of us are wanting to do. Lifting prior to cardio burns off the glucose and carbs, which are actually needed for heavy lifting. By the time you are done lifting and hit the treadmill you are in fat burning mode and should be burning nothing but fat, theoretically during your cardio since you burned off your glucose.

I know it's an age old argument of whether to do cardio first or last but after months of study and ready varying opinions I have come to the conclusion myself it is better to do cardio after some weight lifting.

Which leads to another "myth". Cardio on an empty stomach. Yea, sure you are buring more fat when you cardio in the morning before you eat. But the rest of your day your body is storing fat and burning glucose to balance out it's stores. Thus, it matters really not when you cardio.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 04:04 PM
You do tear down different muscle fibers lifting 15 difficult reps then 5 difficult reps, but if you are just going light because you are worried about being jacked then don't worry. Just get in there and work hard and change up the routine. If you aren't roiding or eating above maintenacne you aren't going to be "bulky".

Agreed! As far as the reps go, I have read several studies lately that indicate it is better to do 6-8 reps with heavier weight than 15 reps with a more comfortable weight. I am sure that is debateable but I like that routine. Especially for someone like me who can't spend hours at the gym every night. I do 3 sets of each exercise with a target rep count of 12. Increase weight every set. If I am on pace I usually get 12 reps first set, 9-10 second and 6-10 3rd.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 04:07 PM
You do tear down different muscle fibers lifting 15 difficult reps then 5 difficult reps, but if you are just going light because you are worried about being jacked then don't worry. Just get in there and work hard and change up the routine. If you aren't roiding or eating above maintenacne you aren't going to be "bulky".

Thanks, good to know.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 04:07 PM
I would say how you are going to look is about 50% genetics, 40% diet and 10% training. You can probably figure chemicals in there somewhere if you want, but look no further then a prison yard to figure out genetics is king where guys all eat the same thing. Diet is a huge part of maximizing what your potential is.

I disagree but only based on personal experience. My family genetics tend to be round bellt, round face, thick neck. I was falling into that and I hit the gym and managed my diet. I was lean, buff and in great shape. After I married I got out of the routine and started looking more like those in my family. Now that I have hit the gym again I am starting to see the same results as the first time. But that's just me, I can't say you are wrong.

Ace Gunner
09-27-2011, 04:17 PM
I'm lifting for tone more than bulk, doing the standard push/pull muscle splits. Wondering what groups other people work together.

I had these splits reccomended to me,what to you think? (cardio not included here). What do you do?

Day 1-Chest & Bicep/Forearm
2-Back & Tricep
3-Rest
4-Legs & core
5-Shoulders
6-Rest
7-Legs & core


hahaha. you hate sit ups. I guarantee you there is no better exercise than running and sit ups. combined with weighted knee bends or stairs plus upper body, you will feel good, lean and mean. use a slant board or invert. add a little weight later.

Brock
09-27-2011, 04:19 PM
hahaha. you hate sit ups. I guarantee you there is no better exercise than running and sit ups. combined with weighted knee bends or stairs plus upper body, you will feel good, lean and mean. use a slant board or invert. add a little weight later.

There are many, many better exercises than running and situps. I could almost pick exercises randomly out of a hat and they'd be better than that.

vailpass
09-27-2011, 04:23 PM
hahaha. you hate sit ups. I guarantee you there is no better exercise than running and sit ups. combined with weighted knee bends or stairs plus upper body, you will feel good, lean and mean. use a slant board or invert. add a little weight later.

WTF are you talking aobut? Who said anything about sit-ups? You stuck in the 1920s?

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 05:50 PM
Not arguing with you but isn't 10-20 a subset within 5-30? Either way muscle burn more calories than fat, yes?

Donger wouldn't say "no it doesn't".
Donger would say "does it? Why do you say that?" :)

You said per hour... Maybe you meant to say per day. Yes it does burn more, but I think it's a pretty insignifiant amount more.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 05:50 PM
hahaha. you hate sit ups. I guarantee you there is no better exercise than running and sit ups. combined with weighted knee bends or stairs plus upper body, you will feel good, lean and mean. use a slant board or invert. add a little weight later.

Sit ups are not good. Inverted sit ups are most effective if that's what you want. Most people who want to lose a gut are wasting their time with doing a bunch of sit ups. You burn fat from head to toe, not just from one spot or another.

If you are exercising properly your abs will get a workout without ever doing a situp. Particularly leg exercises.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 05:51 PM
Agreed! As far as the reps go, I have read several studies lately that indicate it is better to do 6-8 reps with heavier weight than 15 reps with a more comfortable weight. I am sure that is debateable but I like that routine. Especially for someone like me who can't spend hours at the gym every night. I do 3 sets of each exercise with a target rep count of 12. Increase weight every set. If I am on pace I usually get 12 reps first set, 9-10 second and 6-10 3rd.

It's actually better to do both it both ways, but I have trouble checking my ego at the door and love to go heavy. 10 reps in a set is a lot for me.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 05:53 PM
There are many, many better exercises than running and situps. I could almost pick exercises randomly out of a hat and they'd be better than that.

Meh, I think running is one of the best exercises you could ever do, if your knees and ankles can handle it and if weight loss is your goal. Our bodies are built to run. Running will give you some of the best cardio you could ever get and burn fat as well.

For people who can't run for long periods because of the shape they are in or if you are like me, your knees and ankles can't take it over extended periods of time, interval training is the shit. High intensity, all-out sprinting for a minute, then walk for 2-3 inbetween. It is awesome exercise and great for you. Check it out.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 05:58 PM
And just another preference of mine, use free weights as much as possible. I know, not everything can be done with free weights but you get the most out of them. The ancillary work your core and stabilizing muscles get from using free weights is to me a priceless bonus.

It's one thing to bench 150 lb's on a machine. It's a night and day difference to bench 150 lb's on a regular bench with no pulleys or guiding rails.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:05 PM
You are now officially a brah! Congrats man.

I prefer this

Chest/Triceps
Legs/Biceps - I hate legs, so I reward myself with biceps on that day.
Shoulders/Traps
Back/Core

Since I use my Tri's more on Chest and Shoulders day I try to seperate them out. I like having fresh tri's when chest day arrives.

I hear you there about the tri's. It's amazing the workout my shoulders get when focusing on tri's and chest. I usually save my shoulder for last because I get a weird pop in my left shoulder everytime I do a shoulder press and it just freaks me out. But somedays after a good chest and tri workout my shoulders are buring so much I don't even do them.

Douche Baggins
09-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Lifting for tone is a meaningless term for fat housewives. You mean you want to cut fat so that your muscles are more visible in detail.

TRUTH BOMB

Douche Baggins
09-27-2011, 06:06 PM
Meh, I think running is one of the best exercises you could ever do, if your knees and ankles can handle it and if weight loss is your goal. Our bodies are built to run. Running will give you some of the best cardio you could ever get and burn fat as well.


Pete, an idiot in all walks of life.

Running gobs and gobs of miles (which is what you have to do to burn enough calories to make it worth it) works for some people, but for a lot of people doing that much cardio is just going to make you hungry and result in you eating more.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:06 PM
TRUTH BOMB


BS. You have to have muscles worth looking at or otherwise you're just a stick. Being toned does not = being a stick. Being toned means you are lean and your muscles are in a good shape, not just "there".

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:10 PM
Pete, an idiot in all walks of life.

Running gobs and gobs of miles (which is what you have to do to burn enough calories to make it worth it) works for some people, but for a lot of people doing that much cardio is just going to make you hungry and result in you eating more.

You're such a toolbag it's not even funny anymore. If running makes you hungry then feed yourself but not with empty calories. I have never seen a fat person who is a consistent runner. I see tons of fat people who go 90 mph on the eliptical 5 days a week and never burn an inch.

Running goes beyond the immediate calories burned. Running keeps your metabolism going well after you are done running. Most people can't run because they are carrying too much weight or they have bad joints. Yes, running is hard on your knees and ankles. Yes, running is one of the best exercised you can do for your waistline and your heart.

Try doing a little research before you say something else as stupid as you said.

Douche Baggins
09-27-2011, 06:12 PM
I see tons of fat people who go 90 mph on the eliptical 5 days a week and never burn an inch.


Because they are making themselves hungry with lots of cardio.

Running is an inefficient way to create a caloric deficit. The best way is diet maintenance.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:12 PM
I'll lay money that anyone who runs 3 miles a day will lose weight faster than anyone who does 6 miles a day on an eliptical.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 06:13 PM
Pete, an idiot in all walks of life.

Running gobs and gobs of miles (which is what you have to do to burn enough calories to make it worth it) works for some people, but for a lot of people doing that much cardio is just going to make you hungry and result in you eating more.

Running is the best cardio you can do but weight training should also be a big part of any weight loss routine.

Muscle burns calories, the more muscle the higher the metabolism.

I have lifted on and off for almost 20 years.

I now run 3 days a week and lift 2 and I am as toned and ripped as ever.

As far as running making you hungry, that's silly. I ran 4 miles this morning at 5:30am and didn't eat a thing until 1:00pm.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 06:14 PM
I'll lay money that anyone who runs 3 miles a day will lose weight faster than anyone who does 6 miles a day on an eliptical.

Without a doubt, it's simple math, running burns more calories.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:14 PM
Because they are making themselves hungry with lots of cardio.

Oh bullshit. Look at all the running soccer players and basketball players do. Yeah, those guys are all fat because all that running makes them scarf a double bac-o-cheese after every run.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:16 PM
Running is the best cardio you can do but weight training should also be a big part of any weight loss routine.

Muscle burns calories, the more muscle the higher the metabolism.

I have lifted on and off for almost 20 years.

I now run 3 days a week and lift 2 and I am as toned and ripped as ever.

As far as running making you hungry, that's silly. I ran 4 miles this morning at 5:30am and didn't eat a thing until 1:00pm.

He's probably hungry after a run because he is taking in bad calories and not healthy calories. And, if you are in shape, there is nothing wrong with sucking down some gatorade during your run or if you are trying to lose weight, sucking down a protein shake after your run.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:18 PM
So much misinformation in this thread!

Toning is the biggest bullshit term ever invented. Why do guys think it is so easy to build muscle. You won't get big unless you are busting your ass and eating like a horse....for years! If muscle was easy to build you would see tons of dudes walking around jacked, but you don't, because it isn't easy. So don't worry about getting too "bulky."

I don't wanna sound like I am tooting my own horn but I am going to because people are mislead in the fitness industry was too much. I Olympic lifted under the direction of a coach for 2 years, have a bachelor's in exercise science and am a certified personal trainer.

I would be happy to help anyone on this board and provide the correct guidance for your fitness goals. I like people to do things right and 95% of people aren't.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:19 PM
Running is the best cardio you can do but weight training should also be a big part of any weight loss routine.

Muscle burns calories, the more muscle the higher the metabolism.

I have lifted on and off for almost 20 years.

I now run 3 days a week and lift 2 and I am as toned and ripped as ever.

As far as running making you hungry, that's silly. I ran 4 miles this morning at 5:30am and didn't eat a thing until 1:00pm.

And just to add, I have noticed, as I did in my previous years, since I have put my diet back on track I have to almost force myself to eat enough calories everyday, even after a workout. It's amazing how the body can recover when you are eating healthy and not stuffing yourself full of processed and sugary foods all the time.

Douche Baggins
09-27-2011, 06:19 PM
Oh bullshit. Look at all the running soccer players and basketball players do. Yeah, those guys are all fat because all that running makes them scarf a double bac-o-cheese after every run.

Those people are not indicative of the average person.

Delano
09-27-2011, 06:19 PM
Answering the OP question:

Biceps - all day, every day.
Posted via Mobile Device

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 06:21 PM
Answering the OP question:

Biceps - all day, every day.
Posted via Mobile Device

12oz curls FTW. ;)

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:21 PM
So much misinformation in this thread!

Toning is the biggest bullshit term ever invented. Why do guys think it is so easy to build muscle. You won't get big unless you are busting your ass and eating like a horse....for years! If muscle was easy to build you would see tons of dudes walking around jacked, but you don't, because it isn't easy. So don't worry about getting too "bulky."

I don't wanna sound like I am tooting my own horn but I am going to because people are mislead in the fitness industry was too much. I Olympic lifted under the direction of a coach for 2 years, have a bachelor's in exercise science and am a certified personal trainer.

I would be happy to help anyone on this board and provide the correct guidance for your fitness goals. I like people to do things right and 95% of people aren't.

You soud like you are equating toning with body building? I guess it's a matter of opinion but I see them as two different goals.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:23 PM
Those people are not indicative of the average person.

Go to your local gym then and look at the people who are always there running on the treadmill. I bet the one's that do it regularly are not fat and the one's who are just starting won't be fat for long.

Why do you think people don't like to run? Because it takes so much energy!! It burns calories, it gets your heart and metabolism going and it makes you suck oxygen in droves which is key to burning fat.

Common sens should tell you that Americans want the laziest way of losing fat which is why running is the last thing they want to do.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:25 PM
And Lord knows I need to get back to it but swimming is probably THE best single exercise anyone could do, imo. If I had to pick just one form of exercise to do it would be swimming.

Hog Farmer
09-27-2011, 06:29 PM
Monday = Forearm curls
Tuesday = Rest
Wednesday= Forearm curls
Thursday= Rest
Friday = Forearm curls
Sat/Sun= Rest

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:30 PM
Monday = Forearm curls
Tuesday = Rest
Wednesday= Forearm curls
Thursday= Rest
Friday = Forearm curls
Sat/Sun= Rest

Don't you get a good forearm workout jacking off hogs??? Shouldn't it be:

Monday=Right hand
Tuesday=Left hand

etc ??

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:32 PM
You soud like you are equating toning with body building? I guess it's a matter of opinion but I see them as two different goals.

No I specifically said there is no such thing as toning. Your reference to "toning" is more related to being lean. People generally overestimate the actual amount of lean mass they have, so they generally have to lose more weight than they think to look lean.

Getting lean is about calories in vs calories burned. Simple as that for most people. Running is not the best way to burn calories. Weight lifting designed around strength progression of free weight exercises is the single most effective way to burn calories. Not only that but as someone mentioned, lifting also builds lean mass which helps you burn more calories at rest 24/7.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 06:35 PM
No I specifically said there is no such thing as toning. Your reference to "toning" is more related to being lean. People generally overestimate the actual amount of lean mass they have, so they generally have to lose more weight than they think to look lean.

Getting lean is about calories in vs calories burned. Simple as that for most people. Running is not the best way to burn calories. Weight lifting designed around strength progression of free weight exercises is the single most effective way to burn calories. Not only that but as someone mentioned, lifting also builds lean mass which helps you burn more calories at rest 24/7.

I agree which is why I strength train 3 times a week. I guess I see toning as being thin with muscles in shape not necessarily "buff" and I don't mean gorilla buff I mean defined.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Throw out toning from your vocabulary. It is lean or not lean which is related to percentage of bodyfat, and does not have any barring on the amount of muscle mass the person has.

Silock
09-27-2011, 06:38 PM
This thread is hilarious.

What muscle groups do I work together? All of them. Why? Because fuck your split routines. (Actually, they just don't work as well for me as full-body routines.)

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
I'm lifting for tone more than bulk, doing the standard push/pull muscle splits. Wondering what groups other people work together.

I had these splits reccomended to me,what to you think? (cardio not included here). What do you do?

Day 1-Chest & Bicep/Forearm
2-Back & Tricep
3-Rest
4-Legs & core
5-Shoulders
6-Rest
7-Legs & core

I personally would recommend a Upper/Lower split. Upper workout 2x per week, lower workout 2x per week

Love that you have legs included 2x a week in your above routine though!

People think that for some reason things like chest/back/bi/tri should only be worked once per week. Studies conclude that muscles can repair themselves in 48-72 hours which is why you should aim to hit each muscle group twice per week. Hence, the suggestion for Upper/Lower.

Ace Gunner
09-27-2011, 06:42 PM
WTF are you talking aobut? Who said anything about sit-ups? You stuck in the 1920s?

hahaha. the 20's woulld kick your ass.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 06:42 PM
No I specifically said there is no such thing as toning. Your reference to "toning" is more related to being lean. People generally overestimate the actual amount of lean mass they have, so they generally have to lose more weight than they think to look lean.

Getting lean is about calories in vs calories burned. Simple as that for most people. Running is not the best way to burn calories. :bold:Weight lifting designed around strength progression of free weight exercises is the single most effective way to burn calories :bold:. Not only that but as someone mentioned, lifting also builds lean mass which helps you burn more calories at rest 24/7.

Wrong.

http://www.lanimuelrath.com/blog/calories-burned-by-muscle-vs-fat-another-myth-exploded/


In fact, the caloric expenditure that can be attributed to lean muscle mass is not very significant. For example, muscle tissue has been observed to burn roughly seven to 10 calories per pound per day, compared to two to three calories per pound per day for fat. Therefore, if you replace a pound of fat with a pound of muscle, you can expect to burn only approximately four to six more calories a day. Given the fact that the average person who strength trains typically gains approximately 3 to 5 pounds of muscle mass over a period of three to four months, the net caloric effect of such a training regimen is very modest-only 15 to 30 calories per day (the equivalent of a few potato chips).

Activities Calories Burned Per Hour
Running, 8 mph 986
Rollerblading 913
Jumping Rope 730
Tae Kwon Do 730
Stair Climbing 657
Swimming (crawl, moderate intensity) 618
Skiing, Cross Country 600
Aerobic Dance 588
Jogging, 5 mph 584
Playing in a Basketball Game 584

Ace Gunner
09-27-2011, 06:43 PM
There are many, many better exercises than running and situps. I could almost pick exercises randomly out of a hat and they'd be better than that.

how fat are you? :p

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:43 PM
This thread is hilarious.

What muscle groups do I work together? All of them. Why? Because **** your split routines. (Actually, they just don't work as well for me as full-body routines.)

Agree. I recommend full body workouts to most of my clients to build a strength base on core free-weight exercises (squats, bench, deads, military press).

Much better in my opinion for developing the correct movement patterns and frequency of muscle stimulation.

So to the OP....full body strength routine would be another option. Body part splits are not as useful for most people....and I personally think they do not hit the muscle with enough frequency.

el borracho
09-27-2011, 06:44 PM
I had these splits reccomended to me,what to you think? (cardio not included here). What do you do?

Day 1-Chest & Bicep/Forearm
2-Back & Tricep
3-Rest
4-Legs & core
5-Shoulders
6-Rest
7-Legs & core

I don't really like the above suggestion.

1. I don't really like splitting arms up into different days but if you are going to split arms up to do on different days then I would pair Triceps with Chest and pair Biceps with Back.

2. I don't really like that you are training your chest once per week and your back once per week.

3. I wouldn't make an entire day out of shoulders.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:47 PM
Wrong.

http://www.lanimuelrath.com/blog/calories-burned-by-muscle-vs-fat-another-myth-exploded/


In fact, the caloric expenditure that can be attributed to lean muscle mass is not very significant. For example, muscle tissue has been observed to burn roughly seven to 10 calories per pound per day, compared to two to three calories per pound per day for fat. Therefore, if you replace a pound of fat with a pound of muscle, you can expect to burn only approximately four to six more calories a day. Given the fact that the average person who strength trains typically gains approximately 3 to 5 pounds of muscle mass over a period of three to four months, the net caloric effect of such a training regimen is very modest-only 15 to 30 calories per day (the equivalent of a few potato chips).

Never said it was a huge gain but the caloric expenditure of exercise based around a strength based routine (done right) is going to burn more calories for you than simply jumping on the treadmill, further increasing your ability to be burning more calories per day for weight loss.

Brock
09-27-2011, 06:48 PM
Meh, I think running is one of the best exercises you could ever do, if your knees and ankles can handle it and if weight loss is your goal. Our bodies are built to run. Running will give you some of the best cardio you could ever get and burn fat as well.

For people who can't run for long periods because of the shape they are in or if you are like me, your knees and ankles can't take it over extended periods of time, interval training is the shit. High intensity, all-out sprinting for a minute, then walk for 2-3 inbetween. It is awesome exercise and great for you. Check it out.

I agree with you on interval training. But running is just one way to get your heart rate into the target range. Plyo or kettlebells or something like that is better than running, just speaking for myself.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Activities Calories Burned Per Hour
Running, 8 mph 986


Haha show me an average person in the gym who can maintain this pace for an hour to burn these calories. That is a 7:30 mile pace. Not functional for most people.

MOhillbilly
09-27-2011, 06:50 PM
Workout from dawn to well past dusk. Country strong.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 06:50 PM
Never said it was a huge gain but the caloric expenditure of exercise based around a strength based routine (done right) is going to burn more calories for you than simply jumping on the treadmill, further increasing your ability to be burning more calories per day for weight loss.

No. Go back and read what I included at the bottom. Weight training is NOT the best way to burn calories.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 06:51 PM
Haha show me an average person in the gym who can maintain this pace for an hour to burn these calories. That is a 7:30 mile pace. Not functional for most people.

Yeah, that would be a bitch. However, I would assume you aren't even burning 100-150 calories doing any type of typical weight routine for 1 hour.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:51 PM
Activities Calories Burned Per Hour
Running, 8 mph 986
Rollerblading 913
Jumping Rope 730
Tae Kwon Do 730
Stair Climbing 657
Swimming (crawl, moderate intensity) 618
Skiing, Cross Country 600
Aerobic Dance 588
Jogging, 5 mph 584
Playing in a Basketball Game 584

Where is weight lifting included in this?

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 06:52 PM
Where is weight lifting included in this?

Exactly.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Yeah, that would be a bitch. However, I would assume you aren't even burning 100-150 calories doing any type of typical weight routine for 1 hour.

Likely true with the effort put in by most people and they machines they use. Put in free-weight exercises with moderate-heavy weights in a full body routine and you will be burning way more calories than that treadmill.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Where is weight lifting included in this?

Even doing short rest sets and getting your heart rate up you aren't going to burn as many calories lifting for an hour as you would running for 30.

The best combo is to do both.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:55 PM
Exactly.

That does not make your point! If it isn't included how can you claim they even measured it. Also, your stats that you posted make no sense. Calories burned per hours is related largely to the body weight and efficiency of that person in performing that movement.

Would you say a 300lb man would burn the same amount of calories doing the same running exercise as a 100lbs woman? Your figures mean nothing.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 06:57 PM
Even doing short rest sets and getting your heart rate up you aren't going to burn as many calories lifting for an hour as you would running for 30.

The best combo is to do both.

Wow....again, misinformation from the cardio movement of the 90's.

Never said to ignore running. Best combo is to do both for weight loss. However, people in this thread were largely stating that running should take priority when in fact that is simply not true. Both need to be included.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 06:59 PM
That does not make your point! If it isn't included how can you claim they even measured it. Also, your stats that you posted make no sense. Calories burned per hours is related largely to the body weight and efficiency of that person in performing that movement.

Would you say a 300lb man would burn the same amount of calories doing the same running exercise as a 100lbs woman? Your figures mean nothing.

Actually weight, sex and age all take a roll in caloric burning rate. All calorie calculators I have seen take that into account.

Running is also variable dependent on not just speed but also incline. It takes more calories to run up hill than on flat ground.

Thats why a good GPS tracker is way more accurate when counting calories burned.

The one I have uses weight age etc...but also tracks your course and elevation.

GloryDayz
09-27-2011, 07:00 PM
I'm lifting for tone more than bulk, doing the standard push/pull muscle splits. Wondering what groups other people work together.

I had these splits reccomended to me,what to you think? (cardio not included here). What do you do?

Day 1-Chest & Bicep/Forearm
2-Back & Tricep
3-Rest
4-Legs & core
5-Shoulders
6-Rest
7-Legs & core

I divide it int three primary groups, Upper body (shoulders, arms, chest, lats, delts), core (abs, hips, lower back), and legs (quads, hamstrings and calves). Sunday is my only "full day off", but Saturday is trade the weight room in for traditional activities like yard work or sports play. As for the primary groups, I rotate the "primary" focus in a straight rotation (bridging the weekend gaps). The key is, it's just primary focus that's the word of the day. I still work the non-primary focus 'some' every day, but I work the primary group the most.

And I walk for around 45 minutes every day for "lunch". It's not exactly like running, but I'm OK with all those studies that tell me it's just about the same thing... And I find walking in a 8 story parking garage more than just a simple stroll through a park..

It's my own "deal", but I find it very sustainable. And that's the key.. P90X and insanity are very cool, but I have my doubts that many people do those for 30-50 years of their life..

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:02 PM
Wow....again, misinformation from the cardio movement of the 90's.

Never said to ignore running. Best combo is to do both for weight loss. However, people in this thread were largely stating that running should take priority when in fact that is simply not true. Both need to be included.

I have lifted for 20 years. I have been big and bulky and I am now 20 lbs lighter than my heaviest weight.

When I wanted to get leaner I originally started dieting. It was taking forever.

I started running 7 months ago and am in probably the best shape of my life minus when I got out of basic training and AIT at 18.

I am not as strong as I once was, but I think I look better and I am in better shape.

I have never read where lifting burns much for calories. And I have read a lot and tried a lot.

Plyo and things like that are another story.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:03 PM
I have done my own experiment relative to these points.

I Olympic lifted 4x per week when I was training. Clean and Jerk, Snatch and Squats every workout. No cardio included. I could eat 4,000 calories a day and maintain my weight. Needed 5,000 calories a day to gain weight.

Currently (bodyweight the same) I lift 4x per week and do about 3 cardio session. This total amount of workout time for a week is almost exactly similar to the time I spent Olympic lifting per week. I require 3,000 calories to maintain my weight now.

People grossly underestimate what training for strength can do for calories burned.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:04 PM
Plyo and things like that are another story.

Plyos and things like that are another story in a good way?

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:04 PM
That does not make your point! If it isn't included how can you claim they even measured it. Also, your stats that you posted make no sense. Calories burned per hours is related largely to the body weight and efficiency of that person in performing that movement.

Would you say a 300lb man would burn the same amount of calories doing the same running exercise as a 100lbs woman? Your figures mean nothing.

Here you go again man. A lot of what you said is correct, but when you come in guns a blazzin with your background saying people are providing misinformation and then you through some misinformation out of your own I'm going to call you on it. I don't know everything either, but I do own my own fitness center, supplement website and often train with the 2010 NPC Missouri Overall winner so I do know a little.

Most of what you say is correct but you are off here.


http://www.answerfitness.com/296/how-many-calories-are-burned-weight-liftin/

However, regardless of your intensity during weight lifting, you will still burn less calories during that same time period than if you performed moderate-intensity duration cardio.

To illustrate this, if you ran for 60 minutes at 8.6 mph (roughly a 7 minute mile), a 180 lb male would burn approximately 1,100 calories. If that’s a little too fast for your blood, running at 5.2 mph for an hour would still burn 734 calories, approximately 300 more calories than you’d burn performing the same duration of weight training.

GloryDayz
09-27-2011, 07:07 PM
I just think if you're in the room doing something, you're good in my book.. When you're my age you realize it's not always about what program that you're following, but that you're following a program - and you're in the room...

There a many ways to skin the cat, just don't not skin it...

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:08 PM
To illustrate this, if you ran for 60 minutes at 8.6 mph (roughly a 7 minute mile), a 180 lb male would burn approximately 1,100 calories. If that’s a little too fast for your blood, running at 5.2 mph for an hour would still burn 734 calories, approximately 300 more calories than you’d burn performing the same duration of weight training.

Haha classify how the weight lifting is being perfomed then!!!??? Every weightlifting workout burns 400 calories for a hour....that makes no sense!

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:09 PM
People grossly underestimate what training for strength can do for calories burned.

I am not downplaying that in any way.

I am at 180lbs now, at 5'11'. I am 40 years old and I can bench about 275 and curl and row some respectable weight.

I run 3 days a week for 25-40 minutes depending on distance and lift 2x a week for 30 minutes. I don't do legs since I started running, no real need.

If not for the weight training I wouldn't be able to get away with some of what I eat or drink.

If not for the running I would weigh about 10lbs more.

I weighed 195 and could bench 300lbs about 18 months ago, I just wasn't happy with how I looked.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:12 PM
Haha classify how the weight lifting is being perfomed then!!!??? Every weightlifting workout burns 400 calories for a hour....that makes no sense!


I'm sure it's based on the average weight routine someone would perform. I don't think they are basing it on lifting weights for 1 hour straight which probably can't be done.

You are wrong. Take the information and build on it instead of teaching your clients bullshit. Open your mind and grow as a trainer and lifter.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:18 PM
I'm sure it's based on the average weight routine someone would perform. I don't think they are basing it on lifting weights for 1 hour straight which probably can't be done.

You are wrong. Take the information and build on it instead of teaching your clients bullshit. Open your mind and grow as a trainer and lifter.

So you are trying to equate a steady rate exercise like running that can be measured in MPH to determine intensity, but for weight lifting you can quantify it because routines take into account different percentages of 1RM lifted, rest times and types of weight lifting movements performed. Just saying that you can't perform a well built study on weight lifting to measure calories burned because there are so many variables that can be manipulated, especially by good trainers who have a background in strength training principles.

Not discounting running at all and cardio in any form should be included for everyone. Just think people grossly underestimate what a well laid out strength training routine can do for their physique and goals. Especially since studies can't measure calories burned per hour because not one weightlifting program is created equal to the next.

GloryDayz
09-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Everybody's formula is different. As long as you get a good martini at the end means it's a good formula. Lifting is the same thing, lots of way to meet your goal. As I've told so many people who have come and gone from the room/the club....Find what you want and do it. If you do it for somebody else, you'll quit (and should). Make sure you're good with you, you're going to be there for the long haul, then just experiment with what works for you. You have runners, sculptors, power lifters and talkers, they're all doing "their" thing. and that's cool with me...

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Comparing the calories burned DURING weight lifting is misleading. It may not be as high, but there is an elevation of calories burned POST-workout, which isn't counted in most calorie counters. When you compare it with something like steady-state cardio, which only burns calories WHILE you are doing the exercise, it seems lower.

This is a great article:
http://alwyncosgrove.com/2010/01/hierarchy-of-fat-loss/

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:25 PM
So you are trying to equate a steady rate exercise like running that can be measured in MPH to determine intensity, but for weight lifting you can quantify it because routines take into account different percentages of 1RM lifted, rest times and types of weight lifting movements performed. Just saying that you can't perform a well built study on weight lifting to measure calories burned because there are so many variables that can be manipulated, especially by good trainers who have a background in strength training principles.

Not discounting running at all and cardio in any form should be included for everyone. Just think people grossly underestimate what a well laid out strength training routine can do for their physique and goals. Especially since studies can't measure calories burned per hour because not one weightlifting program is created equal to the next.

Like most I'm basing the weight routine on something a normal person might come in and do.

I agree man. I love weight and neglect the hell out of cardio, but I'm rarely cutting.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Like most I'm basing the weight routine on something a normal person might come in and do.

I know you know this, but most normal people aren't coming in and busting out a 7:30 pace for an hour.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:29 PM
Like most I'm basing the weight routine on something a normal person might come in and do.

I agree man. I love weight and neglect the hell out of cardio, but I'm rarely cutting.

Yea I see where you are coming from. Just stating that if someone has a well laid out program and they put intensity into in (mod/heavy weight), those calories burned are more than those studies because of all the variables one can manipulate.

I am rarely cutting as well...haha. Love lifting some weight though!

Good discussion.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:29 PM
Comparing the calories burned DURING weight lifting is misleading. It may not be as high, but there is an elevation of calories burned POST-workout, which isn't counted in most calorie counters. When you compare it with something like steady-state cardio, which only burns calories WHILE you are doing the exercise, it seems lower.

This is a great article:
http://alwyncosgrove.com/2010/01/hierarchy-of-fat-loss/

Which is why doing weight training and cardio is a double whammy.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:30 PM
I know you know this, but most normal people aren't coming in and busting out a 7:30 pace for an hour.

Sure, but they also quoted a 5.0 MPH pace in the other article I linked which was still 300 calories more then weight training for 1 hour.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:31 PM
I know you know this, but most normal people aren't coming in and busting out a 7:30 pace for an hour.

You have to be on a pretty hard core cardio routine to do that.

It's easier to do something like run a 4 mile road course with some elevation changes for 32 minutes or so and burn 600 calories at an 8 minute pace.

You have to have elevation changes though or calories drop some.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:31 PM
Which is why doing weight training and cardio is a double whammy.

Yup.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:32 PM
Yea I see where you are coming from. Just stating that if someone has a well laid out program and they put intensity into in (mod/heavy weight), those calories burned are more than those studies because of all the variables one can manipulate.

I am rarely cutting as well...haha. Love lifting some weight though!

Good discussion.

I agree 100% with you except the amount of calories that will burned in 1 hour of lifting vs 1 hour of moderate cardio. But year for the average joe I guess just doing something besides sitting on the couch for an hour is a winner.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:33 PM
You have to be on a pretty hard core cardio routine to do that.

It's easier to do something like run a 4 mile road course with some elevation changes for 32 minutes or so and burn 600 calories at an 8 minute pace.

You have to have elevation changes though or calories drop some.

I agree, but a 7:30 mile on a Tread is a hell of a lot easier then a 7:30 mile on a track.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:35 PM
Sure, but they also quoted a 5.0 MPH pace in the other article I linked which was still 300 calories more then weight training for 1 hour.

Oh, I know. But there are other training adaptations that take place with cardio that the numbers in the list don't reflect. Namely, the more you do something, the more efficient at it you become. So, a person might burn 500 calories in an hour in January, but running the same pace (even if they weigh the same) in 6 months won't have them burning 500 calories in that hour if they have kept up the routine.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:36 PM
I agree, but a 7:30 mile on a Tread is a hell of a lot easier then a 7:30 mile on a track.

I started on a treadmill and have been running out doors for about 5 months.


The road is much tougher but more energizing.

I can't stand the treadmill now.

Unfortunately weather will move me back inside some the next 4 or 5 months.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Oh, I know. But there are other training adaptations that take place with cardio that the numbers in the list don't reflect. Namely, the more you do something, the more efficient at it you become. So, a person might burn 500 calories in an hour in January, but running the same pace (even if they weigh the same) in 6 months won't have them burning 500 calories in that hour if they have kept up the routine.

I was thinking about that earlier. The only real change would be heart rate which would have an effect.

Most people I think would speed up naturally though and you can run the same time at elevated heart rate going faster and get more out of it. You just go farther.

On the flip side, running the same distance faster burns more calories than going slower.

I know, no shit.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Oh, I know. But there are other training adaptations that take place with cardio that the numbers in the list don't reflect. Namely, the more you do something, the more efficient at it you become. So, a person might burn 500 calories in an hour in January, but running the same pace (even if they weigh the same) in 6 months won't have them burning 500 calories in that hour if they have kept up the routine.

But we can both agree regardless you will still be burn signifcantly more calories during 1 hour's time then weight training I'm sure which was the issue.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:43 PM
But we can both agree regardless you will still be burn signifcantly more calories during 1 hour's time then weight training I'm sure which was the issue.

There is also the option of interval training which more effective at burning fat than either and that's really what you are looking for.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:44 PM
But we can both agree regardless you will still be burn signifcantly more calories during 1 hour's time then weight training I'm sure which was the issue.

During that hour, absolutely. I'm not convinced that over the course of, say a week, that the calories burned aren't in favor of the lifting, depending, of course, upon the intensity of each.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:46 PM
Most people I think would speed up naturally though and you can run the same time at elevated heart rate going faster and get more out of it. You just go farther.

Perhaps. Not everyone speeds up, though. Much in the same way I see the same lifters come into the gym every day, lifting the same amount of weight for the same number of reps, and they weigh the same as they ever have.

Simply Red
09-27-2011, 07:46 PM
New running shoes
http://i54.tinypic.com/vi1icl.jpg

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:48 PM
During that hour, absolutely. I'm not convinced that over the course of, say a week, that the calories burned aren't in favor of the lifting, depending, of course, upon the intensity of each.

Interesting thought. I am at the gym 30 minutes a pop and used to go 3 or 4 time a week and I work fast. No bullshitting. Lift to lift with measured breaks in between.

I have had more success getting lean running and cutting my lifting to 2x a week. I often run and lift the same day and usually once a week do a 20 hour fast on 1 of those days.

Now If I were to go back to 3 days a week lifting I am sure I would see more benefit but 5 workouts a week is what I shoot for.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:49 PM
Perhaps. Not everyone speeds up, though. Much in the same way I see the same lifters come into the gym every day, lifting the same amount of weight for the same number of reps, and they weigh the same as they ever have.

Yea, I imagine you hit a natural limit on speed as well. I am just thinking about my limited running experience. I have a ways to go to hit my speed limit, at least I hope.

Silock
09-27-2011, 07:56 PM
Interesting thought. I am at the gym 30 minutes a pop and used to go 3 or 4 time a week and I work fast. No bullshitting. Lift to lift with measured breaks in between.

I have had more success getting lean running and cutting my lifting to 2x a week. I often run and lift the same day and usually once a week do a 20 hour fast on 1 of those days.

Now If I were to go back to 3 days a week lifting I am sure I would see more benefit but 5 workouts a week is what I shoot for.

Yeah, there are definitely some other factors coming into play there, but I don't know you or how you work out, so I can't really say.

I will say that I absolutely agree that anyone who dedicates themselves to a serious running program is going to lose weight and a lot of it. Those people probably aren't going to be doing a ton of lifting, too, though, so it would be difficult to compare their body compositions between a lifting and a cardio regimen.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 07:58 PM
But we can both agree regardless you will still be burn signifcantly more calories during 1 hour's time then weight training I'm sure which was the issue.

No idea how after all this discussion you can say that. No studies can say how many calories you burn lifting because not all the variables can be accounted for....ever! You can't just take a study and take it as fact without considering the variables they used to measure, and simply put, measuring calories burned from weight lifting is impossible because no routine is the same.

You have to be skeptical of any research studies you read because many of them, especially in the exercise world, are methodologically flawed.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Yeah, there are definitely some other factors coming into play there, but I don't know you or how you work out, so I can't really say.

I will say that I absolutely agree that anyone who dedicates themselves to a serious running program is going to lose weight and a lot of it. Those people probably aren't going to be doing a ton of lifting, too, though, so it would be difficult to compare their body compositions between a lifting and a cardio regimen.

Most people don't start with the muscle mass created from years of lifting prior to starting running so I wouldn't say my situation is like someone starting from scratch.

I have lost some strength but that's not really my goal anymore.

I weigh 180 and most of my friends would guess I weigh 190 or more. Edit: Not because I look fat, but I look pretty big due to getting lean and having more cut.

I am more concerned with being healthier and looking good than how much I bench etc....

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 08:00 PM
BTW I'll be running some E-Pharm Ursobolic (Ursolic Acid) starting next week. It the human results are anywhere near the studies done on lab rats by the University of Iowa I'll be pimping this stuff pretty heavy.

BigCatDaddy
09-27-2011, 08:03 PM
No idea how after all this discussion you can say that. No studies can say how many calories you burn lifting because not all the variables can be accounted for....ever! You can't just take a study and take it as fact without considering the variables they used to measure, and simply put, measuring calories burned from weight lifting is impossible because no routine is the same.

You have to be skeptical of any research studies you read because many of them, especially in the exercise world, are methodologically flawed.

I can't see how you can still stick with your assumption after all the evidence to the contrary without any supporting evidence of your own so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:15 PM
I can't see how you can still stick with your assumption after all the evidence to the contrary without any supporting evidence of your own so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Right...there is NO evidence about the exact amount of calories burned from weight lifting because it simply cannot be measured due to lack of variable control. Not being mean but does that make sense?

So yes, my opinion is my opinion and yours is yours.

I just want people to know that they can't look at those calories burned per hour studies on weight lifting and take it as fact.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Wow....again, misinformation from the cardio movement of the 90's.

Never said to ignore running. Best combo is to do both for weight loss. However, people in this thread were largely stating that running should take priority when in fact that is simply not true. Both need to be included.

This I agree with. However, most of the studies I have read have said if weight loss is your goal you should prioritize cardio over weight lifting. Yes there are split camps on that but that seems to be the majority opinion.

Another benefit to cardio is the overall health factor. You clean out your lymphatic system during cardio from all the bouncing and moving around moreso than weight lifting.

Silock
09-27-2011, 08:19 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9280173

petegz28
09-27-2011, 08:20 PM
You have to be on a pretty hard core cardio routine to do that.

It's easier to do something like run a 4 mile road course with some elevation changes for 32 minutes or so and burn 600 calories at an 8 minute pace.

You have to have elevation changes though or calories drop some.

I do the precor eliptical, the kind without the arms, legs only, and set it on the default interval program. I know the calorie counter on the machine is a guesstimate but I usually burn about 600-700 calories in an hour depending on how hard I go at it.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:23 PM
I do the precor eliptical, the kind without the arms, legs only, and set it on the default interval program. I know the calorie counter on the machine is a guesstimate but I usually burn about 600-700 calories in an hour depending on how hard I go at it.

Does this machine have you enter your weight in at any time?

petegz28
09-27-2011, 08:24 PM
Does this machine have you enter your weight in at any time?

Yes, weight and age.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 08:26 PM
I think the simple answer is any weight routine coupled with a type of cardio a person can get into and enjoy, therefore stick with, is the best idea.

As long as you are doing it.

Anyone can get bored with any routine, being able to keep it interesting and consistent is what's important.

Simply Red
09-27-2011, 08:28 PM
I WORK OUT BY FUCKING.

tHANKS

pIECE!

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:29 PM
I think the simple answer is any weight routine coupled with a type of cardio a person can get into and enjoy, therefore stick with, is the best idea.

As long as you are doing it.

Anyone can get bored with any routine, being able to keep it interesting and consistent is what's important.

Agreed. And too many people don't enjoy weight lifting because they haven't found a program that allows for variety of movements of challenging weights or they are still under the mindset that cardio is a superior form of exercise for weight loss so they completely ignore lifting.

All America should be concerned about is moving though, you are right!

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:30 PM
Yes, weight and age.

Well it could be somewhat accurate then. Some machines do these calculations when they don't even input the person's weight! Makes no sense and isn't accurate!

petegz28
09-27-2011, 08:30 PM
I think the simple answer is any weight routine coupled with a type of cardio a person can get into and enjoy, therefore stick with, is the best idea.

As long as you are doing it.

Anyone can get bored with any routine, being able to keep it interesting and consistent is what's important.

It does get boring and you can burn out. I have been back in my routine for 3 months now and have found myself latley skipping a day here and there. Or sometimes I get to the gym and decide I don't want to lift and do just cardio. Or I decide I don't want to do the full 30 minutes of cardio I usually do after lifting. And that's ok. You don't want to force yourself too much or you begin to become disinterested in it all. I've talked with some of the hardcore guys at the gym and there are days they just don't "feel it" and do a couple sets of 1 or 2 exercises and leave.

petegz28
09-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Agreed. And too many people don't enjoy weight lifting because they haven't found a program that allows for variety of movements of challenging weights or they are still under the mindset that cardio is a superior form of exercise for weight loss so they completely ignore lifting.

All America should be concerned about is moving though, you are right!

I have to call BS on this. Most people don't like to lift weights because they're heavy!!! :p

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 08:33 PM
Agreed. And too many people don't enjoy weight lifting because they haven't found a program that allows for variety of movements of challenging weights or they are still under the mindset that cardio is a superior form of exercise for weight loss so they completely ignore lifting.

All America should be concerned about is moving though, you are right!

I have done many a lifting routine including German Volume Training back when I was like 23.

That shit will blow you up, but it sucks ass, major ass, and takes too much time. I got burnt out in about 6 weeks.

I change up what I am doing and loosely follow the Visual Impact concept.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:38 PM
I have to call BS on this. Most people don't like to lift weights because they're heavy!!! :p

Haha and most people haven't been taught how to do the main lifting movements like squats, bench and deads properly. Further increasing their hate for them.

Not all of it has to be super heavy though!

I have done many a lifting routine including German Volume Training back when I was like 23.

That shit will blow you up, but it sucks ass, major ass, and takes too much time. I got burnt out in about 6 weeks.

I change up what I am doing and loosely follow the Visual Impact concept.

I did GVT too and it was just too repetitive and I think there are other things you can manipulate than having to follow all those sets of the same exercise. I thought that program was soooooooo boring.

I am running 5/3/1 right now and loving the simplicity of it and the adjustments I can make to the assistance work to enhance my main lifts of squats, bench, deads and militaries. I would recommend this program to most anyone.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 08:42 PM
Haha and most people haven't been taught how to do the main lifting movements like squats, bench and deads properly. Further increasing their hate for them.

Not all of it has to be super heavy though!



I did GVT too and it was just too repetitive and I think there are other things you can manipulate than having to follow all those sets of the same exercise. I thought that program was soooooooo boring.

I am running 5/3/1 right now and loving the simplicity of it and the adjustments I can make to the assistance work to enhance my main lifts of squats, bench, deads and militaries. I would recommend this program to most anyone.

I started doing dead lifts some time back and love them. I started running and didn't want the hamstring soreness to cause an issue.

I have been running for a while now so I plan to go back to doing them soon. It's a great exercise that works a shit ton of muscles.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:46 PM
I started doing dead lifts some time back and love them. I started running and didn't want the hamstring soreness to cause an issue.

I have been running for a while now so I plan to go back to doing them soon. It's a great exercise that works a shit ton of muscles.

Yea deads are awesome.

I switched to Sumo style deads as it takes my lower back out of the equation more and lets me pull more weight.

Olympic lifting was about as fun as it got for me. I did that under the direction of an awesome coach for a few years and just loved beating my body up like that! I moved to a new city for grad school and couldn't find a gym that allowed me to do the Olympic movements. :( So I am switching to a more powerlifting type routine and 5/3/1 fits that perfect.

Simply Red
09-27-2011, 08:48 PM
Yea deads are awesome.

I switched to Sumo style deads as it takes my lower back out of the equation more and lets me pull more weight.

Olympic lifting was about as fun as it got for me. I did that under the direction of an awesome coach for a few years and just loved beating my body up like that! I moved to a new city for grad school and couldn't find a gym that allowed me to do the Olympic movements. :( So I am switching to a more powerlifting type routine and 5/3/1 fits that perfect.

I bet you're a badass and crush a lot.

Silock
09-27-2011, 08:51 PM
I am running 5/3/1 right now and loving the simplicity of it and the adjustments I can make to the assistance work to enhance my main lifts of squats, bench, deads and militaries. I would recommend this program to most anyone.

I love the idea behind the 5/3/1, and loved it when I was on it, except for one thing:

I didn't think my upper body was getting enough work/frequency. Legs were fine, as I play soccer all the time, so squats once and deads once a week worked perfectly.

So, now, I just follow the 5/3/1 for legs, but continue to work upper body 3x/week.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:56 PM
I bet you're a badass and crush a lot.

Not a badass. Just sharing my experiences and knowledge with others in hopes of motivating people. I have been motivated tremendously through following individuals online training blogs and the sharing of information.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Whats 5/3/1?

Simply Red
09-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Not a badass. Just sharing my experiences and knowledge with others in hopes of motivating people. I have been motivated tremendously through following individuals online training blogs and the sharing of information.

I was just playing, I'm terribly bored, please carry on your conversation. ;)

lewdog
09-27-2011, 08:58 PM
I love the idea behind the 5/3/1, and loved it when I was on it, except for one thing:

I didn't think my upper body was getting enough work/frequency. Legs were fine, as I play soccer all the time, so squats once and deads once a week worked perfectly.

So, now, I just follow the 5/3/1 for legs, but continue to work upper body 3x/week.

Yea I feel the same way sometimes as well but I love getting stronger on the lifts that are going to get me a bigger upper body....bench and militaries. I add in more assistance work on the upper days than he recommends because I know my body can handle the recovery from it.

Glad to see someone who does an endurance sport like soccer but still lifts with squats and deads!

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 08:59 PM
Not a badass. Just sharing my experiences and knowledge with others in hopes of motivating people. I have been motivated tremendously through following individuals online training blogs and the sharing of information.

SR is just having fun with you. He is good people.

Good response as well.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 09:00 PM
Whats 5/3/1?

Strength based program designed to increase your bench, squat, dead and military press without a lot of fluff. Great program with simple progression. the ebook is a great read and very easy to understand, even for beginner lifters.

lewdog
09-27-2011, 09:01 PM
SR is just having fun with you. He is good people.

Good response as well.

Ehhhh....you never can tell on these boards!

lewdog
09-27-2011, 09:03 PM
5/3/1 basics here http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

ebook is a great read though and details the program much more than this but the link provides the backbones to what the program looks to accomplish.

Marcellus
09-27-2011, 09:05 PM
5/3/1 basics here http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

ebook is a great read though and details the program much more than this but the link provides the backbones to what the program looks to accomplish.

Thanks I will take a look.

D-Train6906
09-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Is anybody aware in this thread? (srs)

Silock
09-28-2011, 12:57 AM
Yea I feel the same way sometimes as well but I love getting stronger on the lifts that are going to get me a bigger upper body....bench and militaries. I add in more assistance work on the upper days than he recommends because I know my body can handle the recovery from it.

Glad to see someone who does an endurance sport like soccer but still lifts with squats and deads!

Yeah, it's not so much that I don't get enough work on the actual day, but more that the frequency per week just wasn't enough.

And yes, compound lifts for life! :)

Omaha
09-28-2011, 09:00 AM
Lifting weights does very little at all to burn fat. It's about 80-90% diet and 10% cardio.

Based on what I've read and my own experience, the increase in metabolism that comes from weight training will burn way more calories than cardio. Cardio is great, but if you want to burn fat efficiently, you better be lifting weights.

loochy
09-28-2011, 09:17 AM
I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I made the best gains with the following:

1.) Upper Legs - Usually I start with heavy squats (heavy for me at least) for about 5 sets, then I'll do about 12-18 alternating sets of quads and hams

2.) Chest and calves - 12-16 sets of chest alternated with calves on each rest period between chest exercises. I pick 2 big pressing movements and 2 fly type movements

3.) Back - always based around 5 or 6 sets of deads and 50 weighted pull ups, then I'll pick about 8 to 10 more sets of some other exercises like bar rows, db rows, t bar rows, lat pulls

4.) Shoulders and traps - 2 pressing movements for about 5 sets each, 5 sets of some sort of side raise type exercise, 5 sets of upright rows of some sort, 5 sets of some kind of rear delt movement, 5 sets of shrugs (usually my traps are still a bit tired/sore from deads on the previous day)

5.) Arms - alternate bi and tri exercises, 12 to 15 sets for each

Rest for 2 days and repeat

Aspengc8
09-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Lifting for tone, no. Lifting to help tone, yes. Lifting works the fat out of the muscles as well as burns calories thus making you leaner overall. Any good toning program, imo, should include some sort of resistance training as a secondary focus with cardio being the primary focus, of course.

I am old school, I don't believe in all the crap toys they sell on TV or the 15 minutes to a beach body program. You want to be toned up? Do a buttload of cardio 4-5 times a week and throw in 2-3 sessions of some not too light but not too heavy lifting.

And since most people mean "I want a flat belly" when they say they want to be "toned", DON'T FOCUS ON YOUR ABS, ffs! I have seen and know people who do crunches until they lose count, leg lifts, twists, this, that, the other thing, all focusing on their abs and they are no thinner.

That pretty sums up why you should stop giving nutritional and/or lifting advice. You probably think you can turn fat into muscle also...


5/3/1 basics here http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

ebook is a great read though and details the program much more than this but the link provides the backbones to what the program looks to accomplish.

5/3/1 is a great program. Throw in some conditioning on the off dats, and a sensible eating plan, and you have a pathway laid right out for ya.

loochy
09-28-2011, 09:19 AM
That pretty sums up why you should stop giving nutritional and/or lifting advice. You probably think you can turn fat into muscle also...

LOL I was getting ready to say that. :LOL:

vailpass
09-28-2011, 10:27 AM
Good discussions here, thanks everyone. I'm putting together a plan for general (not competitive) lifting for 5 days then two off (just cardio). Trying to incorporate what I got from a friend at the gym with the input you guys are sharing. Here is what I have so far; feel like I'm close but it isn't there yet. Any input would be appreciated.

Day 1

Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Decline Dbell Press
Incline Fly

Triceps
Dbell Extension
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown
Lying Extension (2 dbells)

Day 2

Back
Smith Bbell Row
Bent Over Dbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Dbell Curl
Concentration Curl


Day 3
Quads
Leg Press
Hack Squat

Hamstrings
Seated Curl

Calves
Seated Calf Raise
Standing Calf Raise

Day 4
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell
Shrugs

?

Day 5
?

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 11:07 AM
Good discussions here, thanks everyone. I'm putting together a plan for general (not competitive) lifting for 5 days then two off (just cardio). Trying to incorporate what I got from a friend at the gym with the input you guys are sharing. Here is what I have so far; feel like I'm close but it isn't there yet. Any input would be appreciated.



5 days in a row of doing weights might turn out to be counter productive. You need to give your body time to recover and you have a lot of excercises you are doing each day, especially if you aren't taking in enough protein or "enhancers".

I would dial it down to 4 days a week taking wed off for cardio or something and you might even scale down the # excercises each day as well. You shouldn't be lifting weights for more then an hour IMO.

I would just add some type of upright row to your shoulders day and call that it good.

How many reps and sets are you doing?

Maybe try just sticking to 3 excercises on the major muscles and 2 on the minor for now. I updated your workout just a bit to something maybe a little better for someone just starting out.


Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Incline Fly

Triceps
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown

Day 2

Back
Smith Bbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Concentration Curl


Day 4
Quads
Leg Press
Leg Extension

Hamstrings
Seated Curl

Calves
Seated Calf Raise

Abs?????

Day 5
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell

Traps
Upright Row
Shrugs

vailpass
09-28-2011, 11:10 AM
5 days in a row of doing weights might turn out to be counter productive. You need to give your body time to recover and you have a lot of excercises you are doing each day, especially it you aren't taking in enough protein or "enhancers".

I would dial it down to 4 days a week taking wed off for cardio or something and you might even scale down the # excercises each day as well. You shouldn't be lifting weights for more then an hour IMO.

I would just add some type of upright row to your shoulders day and call that it good.

How many reps and sets are you doing?

Thanks, just the type of input I'm looking for. I'm looking at 3 sets of each doing 15,12,10 reps. How's that sound?

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 11:17 AM
Thanks, just the type of input I'm looking for. I'm looking at 3 sets of each doing 15,12,10 reps. How's that sound?

I updated your workout so go back and check it out.

I would probably prefer 12 x 10 x 8 if I were going the pyramid route. Like I said you aren't going to be "bulky" doing lower reps. Maybe lighter reps on the isolation excercises to prevent injuries.

allen_kcCard
09-28-2011, 11:20 AM
Good discussions here, thanks everyone. I'm putting together a plan for general (not competitive) lifting for 5 days then two off (just cardio). Trying to incorporate what I got from a friend at the gym with the input you guys are sharing. Here is what I have so far; feel like I'm close but it isn't there yet. Any input would be appreciated.

Day 1

Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Decline Dbell Press
Incline Fly
*We are doing close to this, and with various types of pushups at the end.

Triceps
Dbell Extension
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown
Lying Extension (2 dbells)
*We do the same ones, but not all of them in one workout, we change it some week to week.

Day 2

Back
Smith Bbell Row
Bent Over Dbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row
*We do about the same. Also have mixed in rows, and back extensions

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Dbell Curl
Concentration Curl
*We also do hammer curls, and a superset at the end

Day 3
Quads
Leg Press
Hack Squat
*Lunges suck, in a good way. We do those and the press, not sure what a hack is.

Hamstrings
Seated Curl
*Lunges help thse too

Calves
Seated Calf Raise
Standing Calf Raise
*We just do the standing

Day 4
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell
Shrugs
*Seems like one more that we do...can't think it if now though.

Day 5

?

I've been working out for about a month for the first time ever for me, and the guys I am working out with have been doing it for a few years now.

We are doing similar to what you have above, but we go chest, back, legs, shoulders, bi/tri.

As mentioned, chest will also work your tris, so having those on back to back days would make your day 2 workout harder.

Editing to comment inside your quoted post. EDIT also, I just noticed I misread you were doing chest and tris together. If you are doing that, might as well combine back and bis as well imo. For the five days, I like that we have chest monday, back tues, and then bis tris friday, so that the opposing muscles have a few days to recover.


EDIT again, crap, and see now that you are doing back with bis. I'd think to go 5 days, you might as well just do cardio in there.

vailpass
09-28-2011, 11:24 AM
I updated your workout so go back and check it out.

I would probably prefer 12 x 10 x 8 if I were going the pyramid route. Like I said you aren't going to be "bulky" doing lower reps. Maybe lighter reps on the isolation excercises to prevent injuries.

I very much appreciate you taking time to make those adjustments.
For Abs I do 60 crunches each day.

If I could bother you with one more: currently I go by how much I can lift without quite being able to finish my last set in deciding how heavy to go for each excercise. Once I can get through all three sets I move up.
Your thoughts?

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 11:29 AM
I very much appreciate you taking time to make those adjustments.
For Abs I do 60 crunches each day.

If I could bother you with one more: currently I go by how much I can lift without quite being able to finish my last set in deciding how heavy to go for each excercise. Once I can get through all three sets I move up.
Your thoughts?

You've got the right idea. You can very technical with it based on 1RPM and so forth, but sometimes it better just to keep it simple and it makes a little more fun.

When pyramiding I typically do a fairly easy first set, then pick it a bit, but know I'll get the number or reps in I needed, the third set is balls to wall and often I don't get the number or reps. I'm not sure if you try to keep the same amount of weight for each set or not, but I like to increase it using the method I described.

Everyone does stuff different. You'll even get different advice from one pro to the next. After doing it awhile you'll see other people doing stuff that you might try and like or you might hate something currently on your workout. The important thing is to make it fun or you'll stop doing it all together. I always tell my members stick it our 3 months and it starts to basically feel like home, stick it out for 6 months and more often then not you can't quit coming if you wanted to.

Aspengc8
09-28-2011, 11:37 AM
Not sure if anyone posted this, but a good read nonetheless: http://www.leangains.com/

I especially like reason #25.. running & cycling warrants not training legs. Those excuses are a dime a dozen.

vailpass
09-28-2011, 11:40 AM
You've got the right idea. You can very technical with it based on 1RPM and so forth, but sometimes it better just to keep it simple and it makes a little more fun.

When pyramiding I typically do a fairly easy first set, then pick it a bit, but know I'll get the number or reps in I needed, the third set is balls to wall and often I don't get the number or reps. I'm not sure if you try to keep the same amount of weight for each set or not, but I like to increase it using the method I described.

Everyone does stuff different. You'll even get different advice from one pro to the next. After doing it awhile you'll see other people doing stuff that you might try and like or you might hate something currently on your workout. The important thing is to make it fun or you'll stop doing it all together. I always tell my members stick it our 3 months and it starts to basically feel like home, stick it out for 6 months and more often then not you can't quit coming if you wanted to.


Thanks much for sharing your expertise; I'm out of rep so am thanking you here. In 20 minutes I'm off to the gym to begin day one of this new routine (though I'm starting with legs since I did upper body yesterday).
Final version of new routine:

Day 1

Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Incline Fly

Triceps
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown

Day 2

Quads
Leg Press
Leg Extension

Hamstrings
Seated Curl

Calves
Seated Calf Raise

Crunch
Day 3

REST


Day 4
Back
Smith Bbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Concentration Curl

Day 5
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell

Traps
Upright Row
Shrugs

loochy
09-28-2011, 12:46 PM
Thanks much for sharing your expertise; I'm out of rep so am thanking you here. In 20 minutes I'm off to the gym to begin day one of this new routine (though I'm starting with legs since I did upper body yesterday).
Final version of new routine:

Day 1

Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Incline Fly

Triceps
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown

Day 2

Quads
Leg Press
Leg Extension

Hamstrings
Seated Curl

Calves
Seated Calf Raise

Crunch
Day 3

REST


Day 4
Back
Smith Bbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Concentration Curl

Day 5
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell

Traps
Upright Row
Shrugs

You MUST do squats and you MUST do deadlifts. I'm super cereal.

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 12:59 PM
You MUST do squats and you MUST do deadlifts. I'm super cereal.

Those are great lifts, but I wouldn't say they are must. I can't do either due to a back injury and I'm guessing you probably can't tell :)

TheGuardian
09-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Those are great lifts, but I wouldn't say they are must. I can't do either due to a back injury and I'm guessing you probably can't tell :)

I would. There is a look of power that comes with people who spend time pulling and squatting heavy shit on a consistent basis. But if you can't, then you can't.

And that routine dude posted up sucks ass.

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 01:34 PM
I would. There is a look of power that comes with people who spend time pulling and squatting heavy shit on a consistent basis. But if you can't, then you can't.

And that routine dude posted up sucks ass.

Yep, compression fracture in the lumbar pretty much rules those out for now, but I still don't think you can tell. I can still do leg presses and such, I just can't have any weight on my shoulders or obviously put a lot of stress on my lower back.

I think it's fine for someone starting out. If you saw the routines some of pros do at my gym you would probably say they suck (I sure did), but the results are there. One dude comes in and does about an hour worth of front squats on the smith machine going no where near parrallel.

Peronsally I think the key is the ability to change the workout up. I know several guys that change up the excercises, reps, or sets quite a bit from week to week.

Post up your workout man. I would be interested to see it. Probably for power lifting though right?

TheGuardian
09-28-2011, 01:54 PM
Yep, compression fracture in the lumbar pretty much rules those out for now, but I still don't think you can tell. I can still do leg presses and such, I just can't have any weight on my shoulders or obviously put a lot of stress on my lower back.

I think it's fine for someone starting out. If you saw the routines some of pros do at my gym you would probably say they suck (I sure did), but the results are there. One dude comes in and does about an hour worth of front squats on the smith machine going no where near parrallel.

Peronsally I think the key is the ability to change the workout up. I know several guys that change up the excercises, reps, or sets quite a bit from week to week.

Post up your workout man. I would be interested to see it. Probably for power lifting though right?


Not right now. I'm switching over to strongman and getting back into fighting in the next month so it looks a little different than when I am preparing for a meet.

Generally when I am preparing for a meet it looks like something this......

Day 1 -
Squats - cycle
Pause Squats - 2 x 5
Adductor Work - 2x10

Day 2 -
Bench - cycle
Tricep and Bicep work

Day 3 -
Deadlifts - cycle
Elevated Stiff Legs - 1-2 x 10-12

Day 4 - optional
Press Behind the Neck - 2 x 5-10
Db Bench - 1-2 x 15-20
Shoulder Work (laterals if I want to)

But right now I have a template I use for a heavy/light split that is spread out over two weeks.

Week 1 -
day 1 - heavy pressing
day 2 - heavy leg work
day 3 - light back work

Week 2 -
day 1 - light pressing
day 2 - light legs
day 3 - heavy back work

The "light" days are not light. It's higher volume and higher reps but my clients and myself more sore and worked from those days than the heavy days.

Just to give an example last night was light pressing so I worked up to the 110 pound bells on seated overhead press for a set of 12 and 225/275 on incline as well for higher reps.

Light leg day is like 405 pound front squats with shit like 4 sets of 20-30 on 1 legged squats. I do a lot of assistance work now and keep the volume on the bigger stuff more limited. I don't want to be doing set after set of 600 pound raw squats anymore and 425+ benches. So I limit that stuff and get more work in on my assistance work now. As I've gotten older the injury prevention factor has become more important.

Silock
09-28-2011, 01:56 PM
I also wouldn't do more than 15-18 working sets in any given workout, vailpass.

Saulbadguy
09-28-2011, 01:56 PM
Man, it seems like you guys really over-think working out.

Aspengc8
09-28-2011, 02:00 PM
Those are great lifts, but I wouldn't say they are must. I can't do either due to a back injury and I'm guessing you probably can't tell :)

Most of the guys I know that squat & pull over 400 have a pretty thick yoke/upper trap area. Being that you cant pull or put any pressure on your lower lumbar, I'm guessing stuff like heavy shrugs, rack pulls or farmerss walks are out of the question. Not saying that you don't have a thick yoke, just that it would be hard to get without those movements.

TheGuardian
09-28-2011, 02:03 PM
Most of the guys I know that squat & pull over 400 have a pretty thick yoke/upper trap area. Being that you cant pull or put any pressure on your lower lumbar, I'm guessing stuff like heavy shrugs, rack pulls or farmerss walks are out of the question. Not saying that you don't have a thick yoke, just that it would be hard to get without those movements.

Pretty much what I'm getting at.

Every dude in the gym has "arms". All of em. But I lift at 2 gyms and I don't see a single guy that has what I call the look of power. A guy you know looks the way he does because he's strong. Bodybuilders with big arms and shit don't impress me. I see tons of guys at the new gym who have big arms but when they stand next to me they look like a piece of paper. No back thickness, no traps, no legs, no calves. All show and no go.

loochy
09-28-2011, 02:14 PM
Also, those exercises help EVERYTHING.

Deadlifts help your grip, forearms, arms, shoulders, traps, back, abs, glutes, hams, quads, and calves...everything.

Squats get everything except for the arms.

People substitute leg press for squats...it is no substitute at all. There is a reason squats are so exhausting.

loochy
09-28-2011, 02:15 PM
Thanks much for sharing your expertise; I'm out of rep so am thanking you here. In 20 minutes I'm off to the gym to begin day one of this new routine (though I'm starting with legs since I did upper body yesterday).
Final version of new routine:

Day 1

Chest
Incline Dbell Press
Flat Dbell Press
Incline Fly

Triceps
Skullcrusher
Rope Pushdown

Day 2

Quads
Leg Press
Leg Extension

Hamstrings
Seated Curl

Calves
Seated Calf Raise

Crunch
Day 3

REST


Day 4
Back
Smith Bbell Row
Wide Grip Pull Down
Hammer Strength Hi Row

Bicep
Bbell Curl
Concentration Curl

Day 5
Shoulders
Seated Dbell Press
Lateral Raise
Rear Delt Row-Dbell

Traps
Upright Row
Shrugs

Also, I'd probably change out your pull downs for pull ups (weighted as soon as you are able)

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 02:16 PM
Pretty much what I'm getting at.

Every dude in the gym has "arms". All of em. But I lift at 2 gyms and I don't see a single guy that has what I call the look of power. A guy you know looks the way he does because he's strong. Bodybuilders with big arms and shit don't impress me. I see tons of guys at the new gym who have big arms but when they stand next to me they look like a piece of paper. No back thickness, no traps, no legs, no calves. All show and no go.

My upper back, shoulders and espeically my traps are probably where I'm best developed at. I have traps like Lesnar and an ass like Randelman... LOL, I promise you can't tell. I'm not like Billay and am an all gun show :)

vailpass
09-28-2011, 03:09 PM
I would. There is a look of power that comes with people who spend time pulling and squatting heavy shit on a consistent basis. But if you can't, then you can't.

And that routine dude posted up sucks ass.

LMAO

TheGuardian
09-28-2011, 03:26 PM
My upper back, shoulders and espeically my traps are probably where I'm best developed at. I have traps like Lesnar and an ass like Randelman... LOL, I promise you can't tell. I'm not like Billay and am an all gun show :)

Goldberg had better traps than Lesnar.........

lewdog
09-28-2011, 05:45 PM
My upper back, shoulders and espeically my traps are probably where I'm best developed at. I have traps like Lesnar and an ass like Randelman... LOL, I promise you can't tell. I'm not like Billay and am an all gun show :)

Sucks about your injury man! Glad you don't use it as an excuse not to workout though.

Before your injury did you include heavy squats and deads? If so I have seen a lot of guys who are able to hold onto the size they gained in their traps/upper back from deads, even without doing deads for years and years.

the Talking Can
09-28-2011, 06:33 PM
hysterical and spot on take down of 25 training myths/errors by martin berkhan

http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/fuckarounditis.html

Silock
09-28-2011, 07:14 PM
hysterical and spot on take down of 25 training myths/errors by martin berkhan

http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/fuckarounditis.html

I love Martin and his site, but he looks disgusting. He's ripped as fuck, though.

BigCatDaddy
09-28-2011, 07:29 PM
Sucks about your injury man! Glad you don't use it as an excuse not to workout though.

Before your injury did you include heavy squats and deads? If so I have seen a lot of guys who are able to hold onto the size they gained in their traps/upper back from deads, even without doing deads for years and years.

Yeah, but my traps are more genetic. It's one of the few areas I was blessed in since when I graduated HS I was 6'2 155lbs with jeans and Doc boots on. Almost 15 years later I'm about 225lb and shooting to hit a 405 bench for my 33rd B-Day in May. I got a lot of work ahead of me. So major bulking go on until then.

the Talking Can
09-28-2011, 07:31 PM
I love Martin and his site, but he looks disgusting. He's ripped as ****, though.

agree, he looks weird, just too extreme...but i love how he writes and cuts through the bs...there's great stuff in there even for noobs (which i consider myself)