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View Full Version : Chiefs So did we answer the question last night: Is it the O-line or Cassel?


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Deberg_1990
11-22-2011, 06:34 AM
No, i dont think Palko is the answer by any means, but i thought he got rid of ball quicker than Cassel and was more decisive getting rid of it.

I do think Palko might have a chance to develop into a decent backup QB.

What was everyone else's take?

FringeNC
11-22-2011, 06:43 AM
What we did learn is that Todd Haley thinks Matt Cassel is utterly incompetent as an NFL quarterback. In his first NFL start, Palko was babied less than Cassel in his third year. Additionally, Palko threw 38 times. How many times has Cassel thrown that much?

So, to answer your question, I think Haley thinks the problem is Cassel.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 06:46 AM
No, i dont think Palko is the answer by any means, but i thought he got rid of ball quicker than Cassel and was more decisive getting rid of it.

I do think Palko might have a chance to develop into a decent backup QB.

What was everyone else's take?

I was watching closely (really closely prior to the Edelman TD return) so that I could report back on this very topic. Last night was the perfect game to prove a point.

In the 1st half, there were exactly THREE plays where a Patriot pressured Palko. One of them resulted in a sack and the other and INT. The INT was inside pressure from a down lineman that beat his man - clearly on the offensive line.

There were also 5 plays that I counted where he had more than 3 seconds (a couple were over FOUR) and he held the ball. Every single one of his interceptions were late throws. It's very simple - late throws in the NFL, especially across the middle, get picked. Seldom does something good happen when a QB holds onto the ball and the times that Palko did it last night ALL resulted in negative plays.

I'm not big on Palko, his decision making was horrible and he's got Cassel's arm strength with no touch.

However, the offensive line CLEARLY looked better with Palko under center.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-22-2011, 06:48 AM
What we did learn is that Todd Haley thinks Matt Cassel is utterly incompetent as an NFL quarterback. In his first NFL start, Palko was babied less than Cassel in his third year. Additionally, Palko threw 38 times. How many times has Cassel thrown that much?

So, to answer your question, I think Haley thinks the problem is Cassel.

The difference is that with Cassel, the Chiefs actually expected to win games. They didn't take chances. Heck, they didn't do onsides kicks, etc. Haley knew that this was the Pats, it was at New England and they had only a punchers' chance.

Haley supposedly called the plays last night. That allowed them to actually get the plays into the huddle more quickly.

I do wonder what Haley thinks of Cassel, but I don't think you can read anything into last night.

Just Passin' By
11-22-2011, 06:50 AM
My take was that the Patriots took the Chiefs lightly early on, and the Chiefs came out firing. Once that evened out, Palko was awful and the line began having problems.

But I'd say that the Patriots pass rush is not one to use as a measuring stick.

suds79
11-22-2011, 06:52 AM
"Is it the O-line or Cassel?"

It's both unfortunately. We need to invest in a QB int he draft and we have major problems on that line.

A lot of guys who can't play and we're small. I'm pretty sure, unless I'm mistaken, that we have the smallest O-line in the league.

I think that in part points to why we're so bad on 3rd & short.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-22-2011, 06:52 AM
I was watching closely (really closely prior to the Edelman TD return) so that I could report back on this very topic. Last night was the perfect game to prove a point.

In the 1st half, there were exactly THREE plays where a Patriot pressured Palko. One of them resulted in a sack and the other and INT. The INT was inside pressure from a down lineman that beat his man - clearly on the offensive line.

There were also 5 plays that I counted where he had more than 3 seconds (a couple were over FOUR) and he held the ball. Every single one of his interceptions were late throws. It's very simple - late throws in the NFL, especially across the middle, get picked. Seldom does something good happen when a QB holds onto the ball and the times that Palko did it last night ALL resulted in negative plays.

I'm not big on Palko, his decision making was horrible and he's got Cassel's arm strength with no touch.

However, the offensive line CLEARLY looked better with Palko under center.

Pats are the last in the league in defense. Pats play bend but don't break much of the time.

Teams were also playing the pass against the Chiefs when Cassel was in there after JC went down.

They were playing the run first last night.

It will be something interesting to watch as the season progresses.

the Talking Can
11-22-2011, 06:55 AM
cassel sucks, we already knew that

palko sucks, we already knew that

the OL was fine in pass protection for palko, who sucks but doesn't shit his pants in the pocket like that worthless pussy matt cassel...

in summary: Cassel is a piece of shit

WV
11-22-2011, 06:55 AM
Was Palko better than Cassel, in a word yes....he really had nothing to lose, but my god what a pathetic NFL arm. I know you don't need a Stafford arm to complete all the throws, but holy shit what a noodle armed wonder. I actually think his arm is worse than Cassels and that's not good.

the Talking Can
11-22-2011, 06:56 AM
My take was that the Patriots took the Chiefs lightly early on, and the Chiefs came out firing. Once that evened out, Palko was awful and the line began having problems.

But I'd say that the Patriots pass rush is not one to use as a measuring stick.

no one cares what you think...you think Cassel is a good QB

suds79
11-22-2011, 06:56 AM
You know it just hit me. We have the smallest O-line in the league so at least you'd think they're nimble and can move right? Wrong. Barry Richardson gets beat around the corner like he's standing still.

Sh!t if we're going to have play like that, at least give us a roadgrader RT who can do one thing well. That being in the run game.

Might as well get a 6'8 355 RT.... Oh yeah. That's not Todd's style. He likes them small. See what he did to Brandon Albert.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:00 AM
Pats are the last in the league in defense. Pats play bend but don't break much of the time.

Teams were also playing the pass against the Chiefs when Cassel was in there after JC went down.

They were playing the run first last night.

It will be something interesting to watch as the season progresses.

Andre Carter had 8.5 sacks coming into last night. He had a half sack last night. Barry Richardson allowed THREE QB pressures all night, and he was the LEFT tackle with Palko in there.

I'm pretty much done with this conversation. No amount of evidence is going to sway you, that's obvious.

I can't wait until we bring Cassel back next year with his personal babysitter, Josh McDaniels. What's the excuse gonna be when he sucks again?

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:00 AM
"Is it the O-line or Cassel?"

It's both unfortunately. We need to invest in a QB int he draft and we have major problems on that line.

A lot of guys who can't play and we're small. I'm pretty sure, unless I'm mistaken, that we have the smallest O-line in the league.

I think that in part points to why we're so bad on 3rd & short.

Wiegman got abused most of the night. Flat out abused.

the Talking Can
11-22-2011, 07:02 AM
Teams were also playing the pass against the Chiefs when Cassel was in there after JC went down.
.

wtf?

we have the worst pass offense in the league...no one is 'playing the pass' against us

Molitoth
11-22-2011, 07:02 AM
Haley supposedly called the plays last night.

I actually really liked the play calling last night, except for a few draw plays too many.

Hog Farmer
11-22-2011, 07:05 AM
I do have to say the O looked a lot more aggressive with palko out there. Cassel always comes out with a laid back persona.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:12 AM
Wiegman got abused most of the night. Flat out abused.

We need a LG, C and a RT to make this line competitive...

Until then it will be much of the same as last night...

Esp with Cassel or Palko...

All the hype that Palko received here because he is not Cassel, Was a huge let down last night...

He actually is worse than Cassel if that is actually possible.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:14 AM
We need a LG, C and a RT to make this line competitive...

Until then it will be much of the same as last night...

Esp with Cassel or Palko...

All the hype that Palko received here because he is not Cassel, Was a huge let down last night...

He actually is worse than Cassel if that is actually possible.

It wasn't more of the same.

The passes themselves were MUCH, MUCH worse.

But the pass protection was better. The Patriots only had 3 QB pressures in the first 35 minutes of the game!

SenselessChiefsFan
11-22-2011, 07:15 AM
wtf?

we have the worst pass offense in the league...no one is 'playing the pass' against us

Yes they were. They weren't scared of anyone the Chiefs had lined up in the backfield. They respected Bowe and Breaston.

They played pass first.

SenselessChiefsFan
11-22-2011, 07:17 AM
Andre Carter had 8.5 sacks coming into last night. He had a half sack last night. Barry Richardson allowed THREE QB pressures all night, and he was the LEFT tackle with Palko in there.

I'm pretty much done with this conversation. No amount of evidence is going to sway you, that's obvious.

I can't wait until we bring Cassel back next year with his personal babysitter, Josh McDaniels. What's the excuse gonna be when he sucks again?

I am not even sure I want Cassel back. I would rather have an upgrade.

But, I am sure that I want Haley gone. Haley can't work with legit OC's and needs to go.

My point isn't that Cassel is great, it is that he is a legit starting QB and to make a case that Palko is better in any regard is moronic... and lacks objectivity.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:17 AM
Yes they were. They weren't scared of anyone the Chiefs had lined up in the backfield. They respected Bowe and Breaston.

They played pass first.

And yet they couldn't generate any pass rush.

Andre Carter, with 8.5 sacks coming in.

Lined up on Barry Richardson, who is the reason Cassel can't succeed.

And no pass rush.

:hmmm:

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:20 AM
I am not even sure I want Cassel back. I would rather have an upgrade.

But, I am sure that I want Haley gone. Haley can't work with legit OC's and needs to go.

My point isn't that Cassel is great, it is that he is a legit starting QB and to make a case that Palko is better in any regard is moronic... and lacks objectivity.

Legit offensive coordinators like who?

Weis left to coach his son. Unless you're calling Weis a liar.

And go ahead and penalize Haley for firing a guy he never should have been saddled with in the first place. Clark Hunt has no culpability for that mess.

Your point is wrong. Cassel isn't a legit anything, maybe a legit crybaby.

And again, I've said multiple times that Palko was WORSE. So keep saying it, it won't change.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 07:23 AM
There were also 5 plays that I counted where he had more than 3 seconds (a couple were over FOUR) and he held the ball. .

This surprises me. I didn't count the seconds he had. From what I recall in the first half they were doing quick drop backs and short throws where he wouldn't have needed all that much time to get rid of the ball.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:27 AM
This surprises me. I didn't count the seconds he had. From what I recall in the first half they were doing quick drop backs and short throws where he wouldn't have needed all that much time to get rid of the ball.

Yeah, there were something like 22 running plays and only 14 passes. Of those 14, only 5 or 6 were not screens or hot reads. So basically on every play that was designed specifically for him to make the reads, he had PLENTY of time to make the reads, he just didn't make the right decision.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:27 AM
This surprises me. I didn't count the seconds he had. From what I recall in the first half they were doing quick drop backs and short throws where he wouldn't have needed all that much time to get rid of the ball.

H is right... Thats about the time he started putting tracking numbers on all of his passes..

Nobody knew where that shit was going or where it would end up.

PunkinDrublic
11-22-2011, 07:28 AM
Those bullshit phantom holding calls drive me up the fucking wall. Not that it was any deciding factor in the game but that one on Pope effectively killed our drive when the game was still in question. Meanwhile DJ has his jersey ripped and gets no call.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:30 AM
H is right... Thats about the time he started putting tracking numbers on all of his passes..

Nobody knew where that shit was going or where it would end up.

Palko was beyond awful. That's what is so painful about it.

Everything was setup for him to succeed and he failed.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:30 AM
Those bullshit phantom holding calls drive me up the ****ing wall. Not that it was any deciding factor in the game but that one on Pope effectively killed our drive when the game was still in question. Meanwhile DJ has his jersey ripped and gets no call.


Why should you get mad. This team has killed itself all year with stupid shit like this...

It was just more of the same. Penalties, Sacks and poor QB play...

OH and a defense that cant cover a TE... LMAO

Crennel is a joke.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 07:31 AM
Yeah, there were something like 22 running plays and only 14 passes. Of those 14, only 5 or 6 were not screens or hot reads. So basically on every play that was designed specifically for him to make the reads, he had PLENTY of time to make the reads, he just didn't make the right decision.

Fair enough. 2nd half protection didn't seem as good.

kysirsoze
11-22-2011, 07:31 AM
Why should you get mad. This team has killed itself all year with stupid shit like this...

It was just more of the same. Penalties, Sacks and poor QB play...

OH and a defense that cant cover a TE... LMAO

Crennel is a joke.

Not many defenses have covered Gronkowski this year. Just sayin.

Amnorix
11-22-2011, 07:35 AM
I was watching closely (really closely prior to the Edelman TD return) so that I could report back on this very topic. Last night was the perfect game to prove a point.

In the 1st half, there were exactly THREE plays where a Patriot pressured Palko. One of them resulted in a sack and the other and INT. The INT was inside pressure from a down lineman that beat his man - clearly on the offensive line.

There were also 5 plays that I counted where he had more than 3 seconds (a couple were over FOUR) and he held the ball. Every single one of his interceptions were late throws. It's very simple - late throws in the NFL, especially across the middle, get picked. Seldom does something good happen when a QB holds onto the ball and the times that Palko did it last night ALL resulted in negative plays.

I'm not big on Palko, his decision making was horrible and he's got Cassel's arm strength with no touch.

However, the offensive line CLEARLY looked better with Palko under center.


Uhh....you guys realize that the Pats pass rush is really mediocre, right?

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Fair enough. 2nd half protection didn't seem as good.

No "seem" about it, the 2nd half protection wasn't as good.

It's just harder to evaluate the 2nd half - after the Edelman TD return, the whole team had this "here we go again" look about them.

Amnorix
11-22-2011, 07:36 AM
And yet they couldn't generate any pass rush.

Andre Carter, with 8.5 sacks coming in.

Lined up on Barry Richardson, who is the reason Cassel can't succeed.

And no pass rush.

:hmmm:


Carter had 4 last week in a monster game. Before that it was 4 in 8 games, so you know...

Pats pass rush sucks. Trust me on this.

Lzen
11-22-2011, 07:36 AM
Last night was the first time I really watched Lilja on some plays. He didn't play too well. I thought the blocking was much improved when they brought in Hudson. That's a good sign for the future. Obviously, the RT position is the top Oline priority, though. Overall, they did ok and Palko was usually quicker and more decisive.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:37 AM
Uhh....you guys realize that the Pats pass rush is really mediocre, right?

Andre Carter matched up on Barry Richardson is a specific case. It doesn't matter how mediocre the rest of their pass rush is...

Iowanian
11-22-2011, 07:37 AM
If they Chiefs want to build, they need to sit the old farts that won't be back anyway and get lots of reps for the young guys.

Hudson needs to be starting at center, I've appreciated the former Hawkeye's services and his consecutive snaps streak but it's better for the team to sit him at this point.

Cassel pretty much sucks and we all know it. He's shown flashes but can't pull it off 2 games in a row. He wasn't good enough to start his college team, he isn't what I want starting for my PRO team.

Palko I'm sure is a hard worker and good loyal trooper, but he's just a guy..I mean, cut from the CFL...not what I want under center.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:38 AM
Not many defenses have covered Gronkowski this year. Just sayin.

either have we, so I guess its all good...

Braincase
11-22-2011, 07:39 AM
Everything starts and ends with the ability of the offensive line to execute. My goal would be to create the most dominant offensive line in the game. Worked for Vermeil's offense.

Count Zarth
11-22-2011, 07:41 AM
Everything starts and ends with the ability of the offensive line to execute. My goal would be to create the most dominant offensive line in the game. Worked for Vermeil's offense.

LMAO

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:43 AM
Carter had 4 last week in a monster game. Before that it was 4 in 8 games, so you know...

Pats pass rush sucks. Trust me on this.

Does it suck as much as the Bills? They got 2 of their SIXTEEN season sacks against Cassel. AT Arrowhead.

Does it suck as much as the Colts, who got 2 of their FIFTEEN season sacks against Cassel.

And then there's the Chargers. No Phillips, ZERO pass rush. They've got 4 against Cassel, including 3 in ONE GAME.

Count Zarth
11-22-2011, 07:47 AM
Like I've said before, Cassel has been credited by PFF with 5 sacks this year. Tied for 2nd most among QBs.

That's brutal considering we are 32nd in pass attempts.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:49 AM
Like I've said before, Cassel has been credited by PFF with 5 sacks this year. Tied for 2nd most among QBs.

That's brutal considering we are 32nd in pass attempts.Palko had a couple on him last night also...

Wont be long until he beats that total...

Okie_Apparition
11-22-2011, 07:50 AM
Palko may be the crash test dummy while they set up the O for Stanzi....searching..

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:51 AM
Palko had a couple on him last night also...

Wont be long until he beats that total...

Actually, I think I only remember 1 time Palko actually could have gotten rid of the ball instead of taking a sack.

However, 2 of his INTs were because he held the ball too long...

PunkinDrublic
11-22-2011, 07:52 AM
Why should you get mad. This team has killed itself all year with stupid shit like this...

It was just more of the same. Penalties, Sacks and poor QB play...

OH and a defense that cant cover a TE... LMAO

Crennel is a joke.

What's he supposed to do with the limited talent we have on our d-line and our safeties sucking ass? You can't cover everybody. They managed to hold Welker to one catch.

Just Passin' By
11-22-2011, 07:52 AM
Does it suck as much as the Bills? They got 2 of their SIXTEEN season sacks against Cassel. AT Arrowhead.

Does it suck as much as the Colts, who got 2 of their FIFTEEN season sacks against Cassel.

And then there's the Chargers. No Phillips, ZERO pass rush. They've got 4 against Cassel, including 3 in ONE GAME.

The Patriots pass rush is awful to begin with. Last night, it had the added wrinkle of being ignored in the game until Palko was in a position where he had to throw, because the Patriots were focusing on the run defense. Last night's game really wasn't one to use for evaluating that Chiefs O-line, IMO.

jspchief
11-22-2011, 07:53 AM
The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:54 AM
The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

Exactly what I was trying to say only better said. :thumb:

OnTheWarpath58
11-22-2011, 07:56 AM
The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

Couldn't agree more. Good post, J.

Amnorix
11-22-2011, 07:57 AM
Does it suck as much as the Bills? They got 2 of their SIXTEEN season sacks against Cassel. AT Arrowhead.

Does it suck as much as the Colts, who got 2 of their FIFTEEN season sacks against Cassel.

And then there's the Chargers. No Phillips, ZERO pass rush. They've got 4 against Cassel, including 3 in ONE GAME.


I'm not going to argue with you about CAssell/Palko on getting the ball off. I can tell you VERY specifically that Cassel held the ball too long when he was with the Pats in 2008 and we took a TON of sacks. I would figure he's improved by now, but maybe not.

He did get better by late 2008.

All that I'm saying is that the Pats pass rush is pretty damn mediocre.

DeezNutz
11-22-2011, 07:57 AM
The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

Pretty accurate. Palko looked like a coach's son, a very well coached, savvy player who, unfortunately, lacks even the semblance of the skill set necessary to play in the league.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 08:02 AM
I kind of went full CPTard last night and felt bad for it afterwards...

But when Palko was scrambling towards the sideline and make a guy miss, then got crushed by two guys and missed and open OConnel for an easy first down..

my inner CPTard came out and was hoping that he wouldnt get up. I couldnt believe I was actively rooting for an injury to a Chiefs player... I :facepalm:'d myself.

HighChief
11-22-2011, 08:07 AM
I dont know how you guys can even grade this o line. They should only be in pass protection 15 to 25 snaps a game if things are normal. Grade them all you want but it is a RUNNING line not a pass protection one.

Coogs
11-22-2011, 08:08 AM
The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

Nice take, and I also agree with Okie on this...

Palko may be the crash test dummy while they set up the O for Stanzi....searching..

And one other point. There was a play, late in the third IIRC, where Gruden commented right before the snap that the play was going to be a draw play to the right side for McCluster. It wasn't a draw, but it was a run to the right by McCluster. I'm not sure what tipped Gruden off, but last year after the Ravens playoff game, the Ravens commented they knew what we were doing on nearly everyplay before the snap. That fact would make blocking very difficult. Anyway, just found it interesting that Gruden sort of knew what was comming before the snap.

Nightfyre
11-22-2011, 08:16 AM
The pace of the offense was much better last night, as was the playcalling, imo. Palko is obviously inaccurate and can be fairly indecisive in the pocket at time. He also can't make NFL throws. However, I think our line demonstrated that if we replace the C and Rt with average players and we get a good QB, our team will be competitive.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 08:18 AM
I dont know how you guys can even grade this o line. They should only be in pass protection 15 to 25 snaps a game if things are normal. Grade them all you want but it is a RUNNING line not a pass protection one.

They were only in pass protection like 14 times then entire first half, they had like 21 or 22 runs in that time.

The running game looked good prior to the holding penalty on Pope.

The game plan was setup pretty much perfectly and Palko just couldn't make the plays.

Deberg_1990
11-22-2011, 08:27 AM
Exactly what I was trying to say only better said. :thumb:

The only thing Palko did well was expose Cassel's shortcomings.

He was clearly better at getting the ball out. I mean in terms of not waiting for a guy to be 5 yards open to let it go (which usually means it's too late). His timing on receivers' breaks was head and shoulders better than Cassel.

His pocket presence and ability to focus downfield was light years ahead of Cassel.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the physical tools. He has horrible mechanics and possibly the weakest NFL arm I've ever seen. He's pretty much what everyone expected. A really bad pro QB.

No doubt NE's crappy D played a part, but I don't see how anyone couldn't recognize the things Palko was doing the Cassel NEVER does.

Simply put, the pro game is too fast for Matt Cassel.

So what you guys are ultimately saying is, if we had a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers behind last nights O-line, they would have done well? Thank You.

talastan
11-22-2011, 08:29 AM
I don't have ESPN so I couldn't watch the game. Just listened in to the Radio broadcast and watched ESPN.com's Gamecast. From what Mitch and Len were saying; they said Palko was dropping back much faster. I also thought I heard them say that Palko was getting rid of the ball a little quicker. They had several drives inside the Pats territory, just couldn't convert that into points. You put a more accurate passer in there who can drop back and go through his reads as quick, or quicker than Palko we might be able to convert these drives to points, so put Stanzi in and see how he does with the same O-line.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 08:31 AM
So what you guys are ultimately saying is, if we had a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers behind last nights O-line, they would have done well? Thank You.

I think those 3 guys could do well behind ANY offensive line.

What I'm saying is that if we had a QB like Romo, we'd be talking about boneheaded mistakes instead of how they aren't getting a fair shake because of the offensive line.

Last night's game was the perfect example. Palko blew it, plain and simple.

Cassel's fail is "masked" by the fact that he doesn't generally turn the ball over because he's too busy getting sacked or scampering for a 3-yard loss. He has no pocket presence at all but since he's overly cautious, it highlights the mistakes that others make - the WRs can't get open, the line can't block, etc.

It's the football equivalent of "keep your mouth shut and let people THINK you're an idiot versus opening it and removing all doubt".

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 08:32 AM
I don't have ESPN so I couldn't watch the game. Just listened in to the Radio broadcast and watched ESPN.com's Gamecast. From what Mitch and Len were saying; they said Palko was dropping back much faster. I also thought I heard them say that Palko was getting rid of the ball a little quicker. They had several drives inside the Pats territory, just couldn't convert that into points. You put a more accurate passer in there who can drop back and go through his reads as quick as Palko we might be able to convert these drives to points, so put Stanzi in and see how he does with the same O-line.

Everything thing Palko did, especially in the 1st half, was done quicker than with Cassel.

philfree
11-22-2011, 08:33 AM
The Patriots didn't really test our O line. They only rushed 3 on alot of plays so yeah Palko appeared to have time and was able to get rid of the ball. I think they wanted it that way.

GloryDayz
11-22-2011, 08:34 AM
Both.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 08:38 AM
The Patriots didn't really test our O line. They only rushed 3 on alot of plays so yeah Palko appeared to have time and was able to get rid of the ball. I think they wanted it that way.

Lots of teams defend us that way. And yet Cassel still takes sacks...

patteeu
11-22-2011, 08:39 AM
No, i dont think Palko is the answer by any means, but i thought he got rid of ball quicker than Cassel and was more decisive getting rid of it.

I do think Palko might have a chance to develop into a decent backup QB.

What was everyone else's take?

Palko got rid of the ball quicker? He got sacked 3 times. By comparison, Cassel was only sacked 2.5 times per game, on average. And did you see how many times he pumped on that last interception?

I thought that Palko may have been better than Cassel on the accuracy of his short throws, but he wasn't better than Cassel on much else as far as I could tell. Of course, I recognize that it was his first real start so I'd expect that there's some untapped potential there.

Oh, and my answer to your thread question is that it's "both".

jspchief
11-22-2011, 08:40 AM
So what you guys are ultimately saying is, if we had a Brees, Brady, or Rodgers behind last nights O-line, they would have done well? Thank You.I'm not really trying to say anything about the O-line at all. I just think that what Cassel does poorly at the QB position makes it impossible to really know what the O-line is.

philfree
11-22-2011, 08:44 AM
Lots of teams defend us that way. And yet Cassel still takes sacks...

What I said I had nothing to do with Cassel. That said I'm pretty sure Palko sacked himself at least once.

If any team, Any Team, rushes more than 4 our line folds up like a cheap tent.

talastan
11-22-2011, 08:44 AM
I'm not really trying to say anything about the O-line at all. I just think that what Cassel does poorly at the QB position makes it impossible to really know what the O-line is.

THIS

Regardless of the thread IMO and to quote our former OC; we need to "fix the QB" position. Then we can evaluate how we are at O-line. The QB is the most important position on the team and ours is clearly lacking. Cassel has proven he isn't a franchise QB and so we need to move on. No more "shoulda-coulda" crap; show me by your play if you deserve to have my support as the QB of my favorite team. If Stanzi produces the same results as Cassalko, then send him packing as well.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 08:49 AM
The run game has sucked all year. Lilja, Weigmann and Richardson all need to be replaced.

Buehler445
11-22-2011, 08:54 AM
Everything thing Palko did, especially in the 1st half, was done quicker than with Cassel.

Yeah, ESPN slowed down one of the plays and Palko made 3 reads in like 2 seconds. Cassel NEVER does that.

jspchief
11-22-2011, 08:54 AM
Palko got rid of the ball quicker? He got sacked 3 times. By comparison, Cassel was only sacked 2.5 times per game, on average. And did you see how many times he pumped on that last interception?

38 attempts to Cassel's avg of 29 attempts

lcarus
11-22-2011, 08:54 AM
The run game has sucked all year. Lilja, Weigmann and Richardson all need to be replaced.

Yes. Hopefully Hudson can step in and do a good job. That might be asking too much out of him against Pittsburgh, but it sure would be nice if we could take the number of O-linemen that need to be replaced and reduce it to 2 instead of 3. Weigmann...I like ya man, but your time is done. Lilja...you just aren't getting it done.

Is Hudson more suited to play G or C in this league? I thought we drafted him to play center and be Weigmann's future replacement, but if he can line up and play LG, is there a chance he could be our future at that position?

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 08:59 AM
Is Hudson more suited to play G or C in this league? I thought we drafted him to play center and be Weigmann's future replacement, but if he can line up and play LG, is there a chance he could be our future at that position?

He played 90+% at LG at Florida State. I think his first year he spelled in on occasion at LT and a few snaps at C. He has short arms and played in the 275lb range at FSU. I think he projected to C in the NFL because of his size, but he doesn't have real game experience at C.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 09:05 AM
Palko got rid of the ball quicker? He got sacked 3 times. By comparison, Cassel was only sacked 2.5 times per game, on average. And did you see how many times he pumped on that last interception?

There were multiple times before the game got out of hand where Palko went through his progressions twice as fast as Cassel would have.

I've also already covered the last interception (and the near pick on the play before it) - those were crystal clear examples of what happens when a QB holds the ball too long.

I thought that Palko may have been better than Cassel on the accuracy of his short throws, but he wasn't better than Cassel on much else as far as I could tell. Of course, I recognize that it was his first real start so I'd expect that there's some untapped potential there.

Oh, and my answer to your thread question is that it's "both".

Palko and accuracy should never be used in the same sentence ever again.

Mr. Laz
11-22-2011, 09:17 AM
It's both ... it's always been both. Throw in coaching and WR's to finish the legs of the chair. All the Cassel crybabies have just drummed up the lynch mob and convinced all the sheep that it's 'just' Cassel.

Cassel - isn't good enough to carry anyone else
Oline - isn't good enough at run blocking or pass protection
Coaching - sucks ass in virtually every way
WR's - inconsistent as hell

Chair with no legs is just sitting on the ground

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 09:18 AM
The only bright side of last nights game was Hudson and Powe getting playing time and maybe Stanzi got to touch the ball in practice during the week. That's it.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 09:26 AM
10 or less points in half the games played. Really?

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 09:45 AM
It's both ... it's always been both. Throw in coaching and WR's to finish the legs of the chair. All the Cassel crybabies have just drummed up the lynch mob and convinced all the sheep that it's 'just' Cassel.

Cassel - isn't good enough to carry anyone else
Oline - isn't good enough at run blocking or pass protection
Coaching - sucks ass in virtually every way
WR's - inconsistent as hell

Chair with no legs is just sitting on the ground

The o-line isn't nearly as bad as it looks though.

Nothing you say is wrong. But the issues with the WRs and oline are amplified greatly when you have Cassel back there.

Even the Patriot apologists here admit that Cassel holds the ball too long.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
The o-line isn't nearly as bad as it looks though.

Nothing you say is wrong. But the issues with the WRs and oline are amplified greatly when you have Cassel back there.

Even the Patriot apologists here admit that Cassel holds the ball too long.

The OL is poor when you factor run blocking.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
The o-line isn't nearly as bad as it looks though.

Nothing you say is wrong. But the issues with the WRs and oline are amplified greatly when you have Cassel back there.

Even the Patriot apologists here admit that Cassel holds the ball too long.

I agree with this.... You cant have critical drops week after week with Cassel behind center.

Just like in the Denver game last week, You have to help Cassel out, he isnt going to do it all himself. Which we have all be saying from the beginning.

WR's whom routinely drops balls, magnify Cassels shortcomings and weaknesses... Case and Point, When Cassel does do something right. Its usually dropped.

ChiefsCountry
11-22-2011, 09:49 AM
The OL is poor when you factor run blocking.

For power running this is true, but if you get them in space they are really good.

HemiEd
11-22-2011, 09:53 AM
Palko was beyond awful. That's what is so painful about it.

Everything was setup for him to succeed and he failed.

This.

The first series they even left his diapers on.

philfree
11-22-2011, 09:55 AM
This.

The first series they even left his diapers on.

LOL who didn't know that his first pass was going to be a WR screen?

KC Tattoo
11-22-2011, 09:56 AM
Wiegman got abused most of the night. Flat out abused.


I'm ready for Hudson to take over at center. Damn.

talastan
11-22-2011, 10:00 AM
I'm ready for Hudson to take over at center. Damn.

This x 1000. Let's get all of the young guys off the bench and into the game. See who gets to stick around and who goes back to the bench.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 10:01 AM
It was good to see Powe in the game. It was bad to see a fresh legged Powe being driven 5 yards back.

jspchief
11-22-2011, 10:02 AM
It was good to see Powe in the game. It was bad to see a fresh legged Powe being driven 5 yards back.yeah, he got schooled on that play.

KC Tattoo
11-22-2011, 10:03 AM
This x 1000. Let's get all of the young guys off the bench and into the game. See who gets to stick around and who goes back to the bench.

If only there was a guy we drafted to play QB !?!?!?!?!?









#13

jspchief
11-22-2011, 10:03 AM
yeah, he got schooled on that play.Of course, seeing your first live action against pros in mid-season form is probably a factor

veist
11-22-2011, 10:04 AM
Its really too bad Cassel was hurt before this game--not that I want him playing for us ever again--since it would have been interesting to see if the gameplan we used for Palko was the same one we used for Cassel. Since if it was--it probably would've been nearly identical--it would've made a lovely indictment of Matt Cassel if they chose to not really attack NE's guys off the street secondary with their starting QB.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 10:07 AM
The OL is poor when you factor run blocking.

Yeah, I said it yesterday.

In the same way that they aren't as bad at pass blocking as Matt Cassel's play would make you think, they aren't as good at run blocking as Jamaal Charles' play would make you think.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 10:09 AM
I agree with this.... You cant have critical drops week after week with Cassel behind center.

Just like in the Denver game last week, You have to help Cassel out, he isnt going to do it all himself. Which we have all be saying from the beginning.

WR's whom routinely drops balls, magnify Cassels shortcomings and weaknesses... Case and Point, When Cassel does do something right. Its usually dropped.

Many of the drops are because of poorly timed or thrown balls. And it's not all Cassel either.

Palko's first INT hit the WR square in both hands, but the actual trajectory of the ball would have taken it right over his right shoulder, beside his head, even though he was running from left to right.

That's not to say that all of the drops are the QB's fault, because they're not. It's just frustrating when Baldwin can use a DB's BACK to make a catch but can't catch one that hits him in the 89.

Deberg_1990
11-22-2011, 10:10 AM
Yeah, I said it yesterday.

In the same way that they aren't as bad at pass blocking as Matt Cassel's play would make you think, they aren't as good at run blocking as Jamaal Charles' play would make you think.

Exactly.

Great "skill position" players will always make complimentary players look better or worse than they really are. Thats why they are called "skill position" players.

HemiEd
11-22-2011, 10:12 AM
Exactly.

Great "skill position" players will always make complimentary players look better or worse than they really are. Thats why they are called "skill position" players.

To bad the team doesn't have skill at the most important position. The AFC was ripe for the taking this year.

Chiefnj2
11-22-2011, 10:13 AM
On the bright side:

1. The D made adjustments and blitzed.
2. Houston got a little pressure on Brady.
3. With Muir on the sideline they were able to get plays in quickly.
4. They ran the hurry up and caught NE off guard.
5. Young guys got playing time.
6. They ran 4-5 WR sets.
7. Stanzi presumably touched the ball midweek and got to put on a jersey.

Did anyone notice how far back Calabaloo was dropping on his pass attempts. He'd throw the ball 15 yards, and I'm saying to myself, why is the black line there? Shouldn't that line be yellow?

patteeu
11-22-2011, 11:10 AM
The o-line isn't nearly as bad as it looks though.

Nothing you say is wrong. But the issues with the WRs and oline are amplified greatly when you have Cassel back there.

Even the Patriot apologists here admit that Cassel holds the ball too long.

Tom Brady would look like he did in the first quarter last night all the time if he had the Chiefs O-line. Cassel is way worse than Brady, but the O-line is a problem independent of Cassel. Whether they are "as bad as [they] look" or not, they suck big time.

Epic Fail 007
11-22-2011, 11:21 AM
"Is it the O-line or Cassel?"

It's both unfortunately. We need to invest in a QB int he draft and we have major problems on that line.

A lot of guys who can't play and we're small. I'm pretty sure, unless I'm mistaken, that we have the smallest O-line in the league.

I think that in part points to why we're so bad on 3rd & short.

I understand we all want a qb.We might as well get used to Cassel,hes going to be the qb next year and years to come until piolis gone.I hate it but that reality.

Oh Snap
11-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Barry Richardson at RT is still a liability...But the OL pass protection was decent last night. Palko made decent throws, and he made some terrible throws. I think overall, he could develop into a decent backup...However, none of what we think matters. We can piss and moan about this team all we want...what we think should happen, etc. But none of it will matter in the grand scheme of things. The FO is the problem. Pioli, is this the best team that you and haley can field? I mean I know we have the injuries, but we have virtually no depth on this team. And Bill Muir might be a great man, but he sucks as OC.

Okie_Apparition
11-22-2011, 11:27 AM
That's just a defeatest attitude void of fact
the 1 % has beaten you down eric

patteeu
11-22-2011, 11:27 AM
I understand we all want a qb.We might as well get used to Cassel,hes going to be the qb next year and years to come until piolis gone.I hate it but that reality.

I'd like to see the Chiefs use their first pick on a QB this year if one of the top guys is still around. I still think we'd need Cassel to start the season though with Stanzi (or Palko) and the new guy competing and grooming behind him. My best case, assuming that neither the rookie or Stanzi is ready to start game 1, would be that the better of the two young guys could take over at some point in the season if Cassel doesn't come out of the gates strong.

Oh Snap
11-22-2011, 11:35 AM
I'd like to see the Chiefs use their first pick on a QB this year if one of the top guys is still around. I still think we'd need Cassel to start the season though with Stanzi (or Palko) and the new guy competing and grooming behind him. My best case, assuming that neither the rookie or Stanzi is ready to start game 1, would be that the better of the two young guys could take over at some point in the season if Cassel doesn't come out of the gates strong.

Honestly, I dont see us winning a single game for the rest of the season. 4-12 is it. So we should have some decent options to pick from. We screwed it up by winning meaningless games earlier...We peaked when we needed to stay low. I just knew that this team was going to kick us all in the balls on our four game win streak. Funny, because thats basically what happend in 2007..I think we were 4-2 at one point. We then lost every game left that season.

Bewbies
11-22-2011, 01:11 PM
cassel sucks, we already knew that

palko sucks, we already knew that

the OL was fine in pass protection for palko, who sucks but doesn't shit his pants in the pocket like that worthless pussy matt cassel...

in summary: Cassel is a piece of shit

LMAO

FringeNC
11-22-2011, 01:23 PM
The offense last night reminded me of 2001 offense, Vermeil's first year. We moved the ball well between the 20s, but couldn't do anything in the Red Zone. To score in the Red Zone requires either a really good QB or an really good run-blocking offensive line.

What's sad is this may as well be the first game of the Haley era, because he never trusted Cassel enough to run a real offense. It'll be interesting to see if things improve by the end of year so we can see what Haley's offensive philosophy is. These 2.5+ years thus far have been nothing but an exercise in masking Cassel's inadequacies in order to protect Pioli from embarrassment.

Chief Faithful
11-22-2011, 01:25 PM
I'd like to see the Chiefs use their first pick on a QB this year if one of the top guys is still around. I still think we'd need Cassel to start the season though with Stanzi (or Palko) and the new guy competing and grooming behind him. My best case, assuming that neither the rookie or Stanzi is ready to start game 1, would be that the better of the two young guys could take over at some point in the season if Cassel doesn't come out of the gates strong.

If the Chiefs keep playing the way they have the last three weeks one of the top guys will be available.

GloryDayz
11-22-2011, 01:29 PM
http://covers.openlibrary.org/b/id/60602-L.jpg

Maybe....

HemiEd
11-22-2011, 01:31 PM
These 2.5+ years thus far have been nothing but an exercise in masking Cassel's inadequacies in order to protect Pioli from embarrassment.

Yes, but dammit, they won the AFC West last year, that should do you for a few years you ungrateful fuckers.

BossChief
11-22-2011, 01:55 PM
No "seem" about it, the 2nd half protection wasn't as good.

It's just harder to evaluate the 2nd half - after the Edelman TD return, the whole team had this "here we go again" look about them.

I know you had to have played the sport, so you can probably appreciate the fact that it takes the wind out of your sails when you see your offense (more importantly the qb) unable to respond with points when the opposing team is scoring on their possessions with any degree of regularity.

After the losses this team has taken with no perceived ability to keep up in any shootouts, I can understand the look of "here we go again"

More reason to get a real qb in here that can energize this whole team, not just the offense.

BossChief
11-22-2011, 01:58 PM
It was good to see Powe in the game. It was bad to see a fresh legged Powe being driven 5 yards back.

What game did you watch? Powe was pretty disruptive out there from what I saw. Missed to tackles in the backfield even.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 02:00 PM
Tom Brady would look like he did in the first quarter last night all the time if he had the Chiefs O-line. Cassel is way worse than Brady, but the O-line is a problem independent of Cassel. Whether they are "as bad as [they] look" or not, they suck big time.

Tom Brady took 21 sacks in 2007. He took 16 in 2009.

In 2008, Cassel took FORTY SEVEN.

The o-line wasn't awful last night - they didn't even COME CLOSE to sucking "big time".

VAChief
11-22-2011, 02:04 PM
Was Palko better than Cassel, in a word yes....he really had nothing to lose, but my god what a pathetic NFL arm. I know you don't need a Stafford arm to complete all the throws, but holy shit what a noodle armed wonder. I actually think his arm is worse than Cassels and that's not good.

It's not only worse, but MUCH worse.

whoman69
11-22-2011, 03:19 PM
I think the only thing we answered is that Matt Cassel exaserbates the problems on the line. We have holes there which need to be filled, but Check Down makes those problems worse. I would like to see what a good QB could do behind this line. If Palko continues to struggle against the Steelers (is that almost a given?), the Stanzi era should begin.

patteeu
11-22-2011, 05:10 PM
Tom Brady took 21 sacks in 2007. He took 16 in 2009.

In 2008, Cassel took FORTY SEVEN.

The o-line wasn't awful last night - they didn't even COME CLOSE to sucking "big time".

Matt Cassel 4.0 is a different model than Matt Cassel 1.0. It might make sense to compare Cassel in his first year as a starter since high school with Tyler Palko, but not with the Matt Cassel that has started for 3+ years in the NFL.

I didn't say the o-line sucked big time last night. I said they've sucked big time this season and they have.

Count Zarth
11-22-2011, 05:16 PM
I didn't say the o-line sucked big time last night. I said they've sucked big time this season and they have.

I don't think it's as black and white as that.

They were pretty good early on. Then they took a big dump on the field for two games, and were good last night.

The main issue is that when they are bad, they are reaaaally bad.

I still say they're good enough to win a championship with if Richardson is replaced.

patteeu
11-22-2011, 07:00 PM
I don't think it's as black and white as that.

They were pretty good early on. Then they took a big dump on the field for two games, and were good last night.

The main issue is that when they are bad, they are reaaaally bad.

I still say they're good enough to win a championship with if Richardson is replaced.

Well I'm certainly not suggesting that we need to replace all 5 linemen. Replacing Richardson is the big one. I'm going to assume that Asamoah and Albert are either still ascending or are good enough to play somewhere on a championship line. That leaves Weigman and Lilja. I'd like to see Lilja become depth behind a better player and Weigman is nearing retirement so he'll have to be replaced sooner or later even though he's our only lineman with a positive rating from PFF now.

I'd like to think that with Hudson and Gaither we can upgrade two of the spots on the line, but you'd think that if Gaither was going to be an answer Richardson would already be on the bench.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:03 PM
Simple answer is both...

We need a QB, RT, C and LG....

And bad.

KC Tattoo
11-22-2011, 07:05 PM
Simple answer is both...

We need a QB, RT, C and LG....

And bad.

I'd like to see Hudson play center, take over Wiegmanns job.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:06 PM
I'd like to see Hudson play center, take over Wiegmanns job.

Agree

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:22 PM
Matt Cassel 4.0 is a different model than Matt Cassel 1.0. It might make sense to compare Cassel in his first year as a starter since high school with Tyler Palko, but not with the Matt Cassel that has started for 3+ years in the NFL.

I didn't say the o-line sucked big time last night. I said they've sucked big time this season and they have.

There is no Matt Cassel 4.0. He's largely the same player he was when he came here.

Look at it this way - my 10-year old daughter went to the Vikings game with me and walked away from it saying "wow, I didn't know Matt Cassel was THAT bad".

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:23 PM
There is no Matt Cassel 4.0. He's largely the same player he was when he came here.

Look at it this way - my 10-year old daughter went to the Vikings game with me and walked away from it saying "wow, I didn't know Matt Cassel was THAT bad".

you brained washed her... LMAO

patteeu
11-22-2011, 07:25 PM
There is no Matt Cassel 4.0. He's largely the same player he was when he came here.

Look at it this way - my 10-year old daughter went to the Vikings game with me and walked away from it saying "wow, I didn't know Matt Cassel was THAT bad".

Matt Cassel hate really twists some people's perceptions. And I'm not talking about your daughter.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:26 PM
you brained washed her... LMAO

Fraid not. I let her form her own opinions.

Sometime I will have to let her post - because she can actually tell you WHY she thinks he's bad and some of it she's NEVER heard me say.

htismaqe
11-22-2011, 07:27 PM
Matt Cassel hate really twists some people's perceptions. And I'm not talking about your daughter.

ROFL

I don't hate Matt Cassel. Every objective measure of the guy's performance says "career backup".

But if you want to chalk it up to "hate" that's on you.

Count Zarth
11-22-2011, 07:27 PM
You need to let her post this ASAP.

Has she gone to bed?

Give this girl her own thread.

"Jenny's Hot Chiefs Opinions"

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:28 PM
Fraid not. I let her form her own opinions.

Sometime I will have to let her post - because she can actually tell you WHY she thinks he's bad and some of it she's NEVER heard me say.

Its okay buddy, I am just messing with you... It was nothing personal, just some friendly banter...

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:28 PM
You need to let her post this ASAP.

Has she gone to bed?

Ah the resident loser is out to creep on some dudes 10 year old...

FAX
11-22-2011, 07:30 PM
There are two kinds of poop ... well, there are actually many, many different kinds of poop.

But, trying to discern whether or not the o-line is worse than Cassel is very much akin to poop judging. The o-line is in need of work, development, and upgrading ... that can be done. Cassel, on the other hand is also in need of work, development, and upgrading ... problem is, that is impossible for he has peaked. Poop peaked, as it were.

And, when your poop has peaked, you must pass on the poop, for no poop can pass when that poop has peaked.

FAX

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:31 PM
There are two kinds of poop ... well, there are actually many, many different kinds of poop.

But, trying to discern whether or not the o-line is worse than Cassel is very much akin to poop judging. The o-line is in need of work, development, and upgrading ... that can be done. Cassel, on the other hand is also in need of work, development, and upgrading ... problem is, that is impossible for he has peaked. Poop peaked, as it were.

And, when your poop has peaked, you must pass on the poop, for no poop can pass when that poop has peaked.

FAX

I need to wipe after reading that, just felt dirty down below...

Dallas Chief
11-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Matt Cassel hate really twists some people's perceptions. And I'm not talking about your daughter.

I don't know if it's hate patty. I just think people are fed up with the losing ways of this franchise and Matty hasn't done much to change that trend. For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???). I cringe and close my eyes every time he drops back to pass. I have little faith in this team going anywhere but higher in the draft with him under center. I don't hate the guy, I just don't want him as our QB any longer. Enough.

Count Zarth
11-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Ah the resident loser is out to creep on some dudes 10 year old...

:spock:

No, I just find the idea of a kid firing off on the Chiefs interesting and entertaining.

Get your mind out of the gutter.

Reerun_KC
11-22-2011, 07:36 PM
:spock:

No, I just find the idea of a kid firing off on the Chiefs interesting and entertaining.

Get your mind out of the gutter.

Was just making sure... Cant have you hitting on 10 year olds...

patteeu
11-22-2011, 07:36 PM
I don't know if it's hate patty. I just think people are fed up with the losing ways of this franchise and Matty hasn't done much to change that trend. For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???). I cringe and close my eyes every time he drops back to pass. I have little faith in this team going anywhere but higher in the draft with him under center. I don't hate the guy, I just don't want him as our QB any longer. Enough.

That's fine. I'm ready for a change too. But when people start blaming nearly every problem the Chiefs have on one guy and cling to absurd notions like Matt Cassel today is the same as Matt Cassel in his first year of starting, the irrationality has to come from somewhere. I called it hate, but it could be crack or dementia too, I guess. :)

aturnis
11-22-2011, 09:46 PM
What game did you watch? Powe was pretty disruptive out there from what I saw. Missed to tackles in the backfield even.

You're right. Powe seemed to be a positive on all of his snaps except for one. He drew a huge double team, stood them up for a moment, then I don't know if he didn't have anywhere to step back, or if he just lost his balance, but he went down backwards on his ass. It's not as though he was just pushed back with no fight in him, or by just one Patriot lineman, they came at his nasty. A good sign that they saw the need to double him and take him out.

I don't know how many snaps he had, something tells me it was less than 10, and I know he got penetration, at least 3 times. He could really grow into something big for us. No pun.

htismaqe
11-23-2011, 07:09 AM
You need to let her post this ASAP.

Has she gone to bed?

Give this girl her own thread.

"Jenny's Hot Chiefs Opinions"

Her name is Sophie and she's TEN you stupid fuckstick. ROFL

htismaqe
11-23-2011, 07:10 AM
I don't know if it's hate patty. I just think people are fed up with the losing ways of this franchise and Matty hasn't done much to change that trend. For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???). I cringe and close my eyes every time he drops back to pass. I have little faith in this team going anywhere but higher in the draft with him under center. I don't hate the guy, I just don't want him as our QB any longer. Enough.

And there you have it.

It's not hate at all.

But the key words in your post above are as follows:

"For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???)."

Trent got BETTER after his first year. Matt is still the same guy today that he was on opening day 2009. STILL THE SAME GUY.

durtyrute
11-23-2011, 07:15 AM
It's really not Matt's fault he was brought in, given that contract, and was labeled the QBOTF. I'm pretty sure that deep down he knows he's a backup at best, but it's not like he wasn't going to take the opportunity to lead a team. I still want his ass off of my team, but I don't blame him for being what he is.

patteeu
11-23-2011, 07:22 AM
And there you have it.

It's not hate at all.

But the key words in your post above are as follows:

"For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???)."

Trent got BETTER after his first year. Matt is still the same guy today that he was on opening day 2009. STILL THE SAME GUY.

Much like Trent Green, Matt Cassel is better today than he was during his first season with the Chiefs. Unlike Trent Green, Matt Cassel didn't get the benefit of a Willie Roaf-led, two future-hall-of-fame-member containing offensive line from year 2 on. Neither of them were good behind mediocre lines. One of them got to play behind one of the best lines in football.

OzarksChiefsFan
11-23-2011, 07:42 AM
I thought Palko was in over his head. He does have quick release but not the timing or arm strength to be an NFL starter. A high school QB can complete 10 yard passes.


Once again Haley played to not lose the game early rather than win it. Clearly the Patriots secondary sucks but our QB could not get the ball downfield.


Early in the game it was playcalling(Haley's play not to lose strategy)later when they had to throw it downfield he couldn't do it until the Pats were in prevent.


Don't let the completion % fool you, Palko is a 3rd stringer at best. What is wrong with this franchise? The Jaguars brought in a grocery bagger last year that looked better than our guys.


Come on Pioli is Cassel so insecure that he can't stand competition? Also Mr. Pioli, you said everyone is accountable when you were shipping players out the first year, someone must go!

scott free
11-24-2011, 03:07 PM
Cassel's fail is "masked" by the fact that he doesn't generally turn the ball over because he's too busy getting sacked or scampering for a 3-yard loss. He has no pocket presence at all but since he's overly cautious, it highlights the mistakes that others make - the WRs can't get open, the line can't block, etc.

It's the football equivalent of "keep your mouth shut and let people THINK you're an idiot versus opening it and removing all doubt".

Exactly, its the kind of playing style that allows him to say 'i graded out perfectly' because he didnt turn it over, but he also didnt make a single ****ing play while he was busy not turning it over.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2011, 03:26 PM
I thought Palko was in over his head. He does have quick release but not the timing or arm strength to be an NFL starter. A high school QB can complete 10 yard passes.


Once again Haley played to not lose the game early rather than win it. Clearly the Patriots secondary sucks but our QB could not get the ball downfield.


Early in the game it was playcalling(Haley's play not to lose strategy)later when they had to throw it downfield he couldn't do it until the Pats were in prevent.


Don't let the completion % fool you, Palko is a 3rd stringer at best. What is wrong with this franchise? The Jaguars brought in a grocery bagger last year that looked better than our guys.


Come on Pioli is Cassel so insecure that he can't stand competition? Also Mr. Pioli, you said everyone is accountable when you were shipping players out the first year, someone must go!

I'm not sure what the issue was with playcalling in the first half. Thought it was a solid gameplan for a QB you know can't throw over 20 yards and who was seeing his first major NFL action in his career.

FringeNC
11-24-2011, 03:44 PM
And there you have it.

It's not hate at all.

But the key words in your post above are as follows:

"For me the past three years have been like Trent's first year in KC (remember TrINT???)."

Trent got BETTER after his first year. Matt is still the same guy today that he was on opening day 2009. STILL THE SAME GUY.


The Chiefs moved the ball all over the place except in the red zone that year. We'd get down there and Trent would throw an INT. Hell, Cassel can't even get us across the 50.

Count Zarth
11-24-2011, 03:49 PM
Her name is Sophie and she's TEN you stupid fuckstick. ROFL

Get her posting ASAP. I want to hear this stuff. I want to hear the hate from a new generation.

BigMeatballDave
11-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Much like Trent Green, Matt Cassel is better today than he was during his first season with the Chiefs. Unlike Trent Green, Matt Cassel didn't get the benefit of a Willie Roaf-led, two future-hall-of-fame-member containing offensive line from year 2 on. Neither of them were good behind mediocre lines. One of them got to play behind one of the best lines in football.

Cassel needs 5 Willie Roafs

BigMeatballDave
11-24-2011, 04:02 PM
Ugh. The excuses made for Cassel are nauseating.

Less shitty is not good or even better. It's still shitty.

Patteu had fantastically shitty low expectations for QBs. Puke.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2011, 04:07 PM
Excuses made for this oline are shitty.

scott free
11-24-2011, 04:15 PM
Excuses made for this oline are shitty.

Thats really your bottom line, the problem is more the line than castle?

You just wait, even Orton will have them looking better... bet on it.

Reerun_KC
11-24-2011, 04:19 PM
Thats really your bottom line, the problem is more the line than castle?

You just wait, even Orton will have them looking better... bet on it.
Its getting better. Now that Hudson is going in.

Replace wiegmann and Richardson and we will have something.

And fml if I have to see orton shit his pants in a chiefs uniform. Completely embarrassed over that chicken shit move

scott free
11-24-2011, 04:31 PM
Its getting better. Now that Hudson is going in.

Replace wiegmann and Richardson and we will have something.

And fml if I have to see orton shit his pants in a chiefs uniform. Completely embarrassed over that chicken shit move

I dont see whats to really hate about getting Orton, any team would probably need a vet to come in under these circumstances.

Now if they have some crazy notion of letting him battle it out with castle next year for #1, then i would truly hate this move.

As someone else said, this would turn out for the best if we went into next year with Orton, Stanzi & a #1 pick.

BigMeatballDave
11-24-2011, 04:35 PM
Excuses made for this oline are shitty.

Excuses aren't made for the OL. It's not good, but its not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. It's good enough to win with.

Do you think the Packers, Steelers, or Patriots have a good line?

Not at all, IMO, but due to the QB, they make it work.

chiefzilla1501
11-24-2011, 04:37 PM
Excuses aren't made for the OL. It's not good, but its not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. It's good enough to win with.

Do you think the Packers, Steelers, or Patriots have a good line?

Not at all, IMO, but due to the QB, they make it work.

This.

It's a big responsibility of the QB to recognize his pocket, and to adjust the offense to account for the blitz. Cassel does neither of those.

milkman
11-24-2011, 04:51 PM
Matt Cassel hate really twists some people's perceptions. And I'm not talking about your daughter.

There is not one person who will tell you that the O-Line doesn't need to improved.

There is not one person who will tell you that these WRs don't drop passes.

There is not one person who will tell you that our D-Line doesn't suck.

There is not one person who will tell you are set at LB.

There is not one person who will tell you that we are set in the secondary.

We have holes everywhere.

But the fact still remains, the single biggest issue with this team is at the most important position in all of team sports.

In years past, you could win with mediocre play.

But in today's NFL, you can line up all pro quality players at every position on the field, but if you don't have a QB, you're spinning your wheels.

If you do have a QB, you can mask a lot of other deficiencies.

The hate for Matt Cassel is fueled by the imprortance of the position.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 08:00 AM
There is not one person who will tell you that the O-Line doesn't need to improved.

There is not one person who will tell you that these WRs don't drop passes.

There is not one person who will tell you that our D-Line doesn't suck.

There is not one person who will tell you are set at LB.

There is not one person who will tell you that we are set in the secondary.

We have holes everywhere.

Yes, but none of that is relevant to the question of whether Matt Cassel has shown any improvement from his first season with the Chiefs to today. Anyone who says that he's exactly the same and goes on to make a comparison to Trent Green's improved play without acknowledging the huge impact that Willie Roaf made has a distorted view of the situation.


But the fact still remains, the single biggest issue with this team is at the most important position in all of team sports.

In years past, you could win with mediocre play.

But in today's NFL, you can line up all pro quality players at every position on the field, but if you don't have a QB, you're spinning your wheels.

If you do have a QB, you can mask a lot of other deficiencies.

The hate for Matt Cassel is fueled by the imprortance of the position.

That explains the source of the emotionalism, but it doesn't explain why that hate distorts people's opinions so much. People ought to be able to acknowledge that we have significant problems in both places (like you just did) and they should be able to recognize that any pushback that puts a portion of the blame for our offensive woes on an offensive line that has performed poorly this year is not a defense of Matt Cassel. But that doesn't happen often around here.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 09:15 AM
Yes, but none of that is relevant to the question of whether Matt Cassel has shown any improvement from his first season with the Chiefs to today. Anyone who says that he's exactly the same and goes on to make a comparison to Trent Green's improved play without acknowledging the huge impact that Willie Roaf made has a distorted view of the situation.

If you're talking about me, I don't NEED to acknowledge Willie Roaf. I watched Trent Green improve in his decision-making while he was here. Even in those rare instances when Matt Cassel has ALL DAY to throw, he still don't make his reads. It's not a distorted view of the situation, it's 2.5 years of watching him make the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over again.

That explains the source of the emotionalism, but it doesn't explain why that hate distorts people's opinions so much.

Again, there's no "hate", not for me. This is all about observation and there's no emotion in my realization that Matt Cassel stinks. If you look back at the times I posted before I took a sabbatical, you'd notice that I was largely supportive of Cassel. But I'm not into ignoring what I see with my own two eyes.

People ought to be able to acknowledge that we have significant problems in both places (like you just did) and they should be able to recognize that any pushback that puts a portion of the blame for our offensive woes on an offensive line that has performed poorly this year is not a defense of Matt Cassel. But that doesn't happen often around here.

That's just it. More often than not, the line HAS NOT performed poorly. They've been "average" most of the year.

It's you who needs to take a look back at Willie Roaf and realize that line play isn't the be all/end all. Good QBs are good QBs, period.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 09:16 AM
Excuses made for this oline are shitty.

Blaming them for everything that goes wrong is misguided.

The line isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is. It just isn't.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 09:20 AM
But in today's NFL, you can line up all pro quality players at every position on the field, but if you don't have a QB, you're spinning your wheels.

I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

chiefzilla1501
11-25-2011, 09:20 AM
I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

That's spot on.

OnTheWarpath58
11-25-2011, 09:27 AM
I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

I am quoting this post to show my agreement with its content.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 09:40 AM
If you're talking about me, I don't NEED to acknowledge Willie Roaf. I watched Trent Green improve in his decision-making while he was here. Even in those rare instances when Matt Cassel has ALL DAY to throw, he still don't make his reads. It's not a distorted view of the situation, it's 2.5 years of watching him make the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over again.



Again, there's no "hate", not for me. This is all about observation and there's no emotion in my realization that Matt Cassel stinks. If you look back at the times I posted before I took a sabbatical, you'd notice that I was largely supportive of Cassel. But I'm not into ignoring what I see with my own two eyes.



That's just it. More often than not, the line HAS NOT performed poorly. They've been "average" most of the year.

It's you who needs to take a look back at Willie Roaf and realize that line play isn't the be all/end all. Good QBs are good QBs, period.

Uh huh. Ignoring the difference Roaf made to the Chiefs' offense doesn't give me confidence in your unemotional analysis.

But I will agree that the Chiefs' line is mostly average with a gaping hole at right tackle. According to PFF, Brandon Albert, Jon Asamoah, and Ryan Lilja are 15th, 16th, and 17th overall at their respective positions among players that have played over 50% of their team's snaps. Casey Weigman ranks above average at 8th. Barry Richardson is 29th out of 30 RTs meeting that criteria.

Matt Cassel is pretty average too.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 09:42 AM
Blaming them for everything that goes wrong is misguided.

The line isn't nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is. It just isn't.

Neither is Cassel, but an alien for whom ChiefsPlanet is his first contact with mankind wouldn't know it.

kysirsoze
11-25-2011, 09:44 AM
Uh huh. Ignoring the difference Roaf made to the Chiefs' offense doesn't give me confidence in your unemotional analysis.

But I will agree that the Chiefs' line is mostly average with a gaping hole at right tackle. According to PFF, Brandon Albert, Jon Asamoah, and Ryan Lilja are 15th, 16th, and 17th overall at their respective positions among players that have played over 50% of their team's snaps. Casey Weigman ranks above average at 8th. Barry Richardson is 29th out of 30 RTs meeting that criteria.

Matt Cassel is pretty average too.

I would argue that an average QB is much more detremental to his teams success than an average O-line.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 09:49 AM
Uh huh. Ignoring the difference Roaf made to the Chiefs' offense doesn't give me confidence in your unemotional analysis.

But I will agree that the Chiefs' line is mostly average with a gaping hole at right tackle. According to PFF, Brandon Albert, Jon Asamoah, and Ryan Lilja are 15th, 16th, and 17th overall at their respective positions among players that have played over 50% of their team's snaps. Casey Weigman ranks above average at 8th. Barry Richardson is 29th out of 30 RTs meeting that criteria.

Matt Cassel is pretty average too.

Matt is well below average. Give this up. You look dumb.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 09:52 AM
I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

There it is.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 09:53 AM
I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

When was the last time the Chiefs had a good chance to draft a QB who has turned out to be elite?

2006 we took Tamba Hali instead of Kellen Clemens, Tavaris Jackson, and Charlie Whitehurst.

2007 we took Dwayne Bowe instead of Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton.

2008 we took Glenn Dorsey instead of Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm, and Chad Henne.

2009 we took Tyson Jackson instead of Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, and Pat White.

2010 we took Eric Berry instead of Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, and Colt McCoy.

2011 we took Jonathan Baldwin instead of Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, and Ryan Mallet.

I can remember a lot of ChiefsPlanet advocacy for Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, and Jimmy Clausen and pockets of advocacy for a few others, but none of those guys are panning out so far. Josh Freeman might grow into a Ben Rothlisberger type but that remains to be seen. Andy Dalton is doing well, but it's too early to tell. So you tell me, where was our Rogers-Brees-Rothlisberger in that list?

patteeu
11-25-2011, 09:55 AM
I would argue that an average QB is much more detremental to his teams success than an average O-line.

I would absolutely agree with that. I'd argue that it's easier to fix offensive line problems than to find a franchise QB though. That doesn't mean you stop trying to find the QB, but it does mean that you can't necessarily fix the most important position first or exclusively focus on that.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 10:12 AM
When was the last time the Chiefs had a good chance to draft a QB who has turned out to be elite?

2006 we took Tamba Hali instead of Kellen Clemens, Tavaris Jackson, and Charlie Whitehurst.

2007 we took Dwayne Bowe instead of Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton.

2008 we took Glenn Dorsey instead of Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm, and Chad Henne.

2009 we took Tyson Jackson instead of Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, and Pat White.

2010 we took Eric Berry instead of Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, and Colt McCoy.

2011 we took Jonathan Baldwin instead of Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, and Ryan Mallet.

I can remember a lot of ChiefsPlanet advocacy for Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, and Jimmy Clausen and pockets of advocacy for a few others, but none of those guys are panning out so far. Josh Freeman might grow into a Ben Rothlisberger type but that remains to be seen. Andy Dalton is doing well, but it's too early to tell. So you tell me, where was our Rogers-Brees-Rothlisberger in that list?

They could have taken Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson in 2005.

/thread

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 10:13 AM
I would absolutely agree with that. I'd argue that it's easier to fix offensive line problems than to find a franchise QB though. That doesn't mean you stop trying to find the QB, but it does mean that you can't necessarily fix the most important position first or exclusively focus on that.

It's easier to hit on THREE guys than it is to hit on 1?

Or is it that finding offensive linemen that are adequate is just that much easier - you know, finding guys like we HAVE NOW.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 10:20 AM
They could have taken Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson in 2005.

/thread

So could 20 or so other teams. One opportunity in 7 years? That's what you consider a thread ender?

patteeu
11-25-2011, 10:23 AM
It's easier to hit on THREE guys than it is to hit on 1?

Or is it that finding offensive linemen that are adequate is just that much easier - you know, finding guys like we HAVE NOW.

You can't be serious. You think it's just as hard to find good offensive linemen as it is to find an elite QB?

SenselessChiefsFan
11-25-2011, 10:25 AM
I listened to the guys on NFLN this morning say flat out - the Ravens and 49ers have GREAT defenses, awesome running games, and have ZERO chance of winning the Super Bowl.

Why?

Because they might have to face the Saints, Packers, or Steelers along the way. And why would that matter?

Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

That can't be.... doesn't NFLN know that these were both first round QB's? What kind of half asses network is that?

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 03:07 PM
So could 20 or so other teams. One opportunity in 7 years? That's what you consider a thread ender?

The point is, the Chiefs aren't even trying.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 03:08 PM
That can't be.... doesn't NFLN know that these were both first round QB's? What kind of half asses network is that?

What does this have to do with anything?

Count Zarth
11-25-2011, 03:14 PM
Because neither Alex Smith nor Joe Flacco are good enough to beat Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The entire game caters to, and is focused on, the QB.

Flacco is kind of an odd case.

He has beaten Roethlisberger twice this year, and had two very good games against Pitt.

I actually really like him, he just seems to have games where he completely shits the bed.

I'd take him as our QB in a second though. He's having a bit of a down year but long term, I think he's going to be very good.

Alex Smith is shit.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 03:28 PM
Flacco is kind of an odd case.

He has beaten Roethlisberger twice this year, and had two very good games against Pitt.

I actually really like him, he just seems to have games where he completely shits the bed.

I'd take him as our QB in a second though. He's having a bit of a down year but long term, I think he's going to be very good.

Alex Smith is shit.

This is Flacco's 4th season. He's still very inconsistent. Much like Ryan. Both are good, but neither will be great.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Rodgers showed greatness during his first season as starter.

FringeNC
11-25-2011, 03:30 PM
When was the last time the Chiefs had a good chance to draft a QB who has turned out to be elite?

2006 we took Tamba Hali instead of Kellen Clemens, Tavaris Jackson, and Charlie Whitehurst.

2007 we took Dwayne Bowe instead of Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton.

2008 we took Glenn Dorsey instead of Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm, and Chad Henne.

2009 we took Tyson Jackson instead of Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, and Pat White.

2010 we took Eric Berry instead of Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, and Colt McCoy.

2011 we took Jonathan Baldwin instead of Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, and Ryan Mallet.

I can remember a lot of ChiefsPlanet advocacy for Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, and Jimmy Clausen and pockets of advocacy for a few others, but none of those guys are panning out so far. Josh Freeman might grow into a Ben Rothlisberger type but that remains to be seen. Andy Dalton is doing well, but it's too early to tell. So you tell me, where was our Rogers-Brees-Rothlisberger in that list?

That's a good point. It is all about having a franchise QB, but finding one is the problem. One more thing -- most franchise QBs also have a franchise HC. The whole between the two is greater than a sum of their parts. It's a little bit of the chicken and the egg problem.

BossChief
11-25-2011, 03:42 PM
So you tell me, where was our Rogers-Brees-Rothlisberger in that list?

haha

Funny that you mention it.

Aaron Rogers was on the board when we took Derrick Johnson (and we had a QB that was past his 35th birthday)

We traded our first rounder in 2001 for Trent Green instead of standing pat and taking Drew Brees with our first rounder.

In 2004, we traded down and took the great Junior Siavii...the next QB taken after that pick was Matt Schaub. He isnt Ben Rothlisberger, but he sure would have been nice to have after Trent Green went down in the opener 2 years later (in which he would have been totally acclimated into the offense and ready to go)

In 2009, there were two legit QB prospects on the board when we shit on the board and took Tyson Jackson. Mark Sanchez seems to be fizzling a bit, but the fact that his play raised a level in the playoffs is very telling...Josh Freeman was a local kid that was worthy of the pick (even though I didnt really like him) and seems like the real deal (albeit the sophomore slump of sorts)

At one point or another (and it may already be happening) the fans are gonna turn their back on this team if they dont put a product on the field that is fun to watch and that isnt gonna happen if we continue to pass on legit QB prospects OVER AND OVER to pick up other teams backup players.

There really is no legit argument that can be made against this post.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 03:49 PM
This is Flacco's 4th season. He's still very inconsistent. Much like Ryan. Both are good, but neither will be great.

Yep.

You probably won't get much support for that line of thinking here. Personally, I think Matt Ryan is a mediocre game manager surrounded by an immense amount of talent.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 03:51 PM
You can't be serious. You think it's just as hard to find good offensive linemen as it is to find an elite QB?

You said we need at least THREE offensive linemen. Now tell me, is it easier to find 1 legit QB or THREE legit linemen.

Get real dude. You're the only one fighting this battle, don't try to be a martyr.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 05:24 PM
haha

Funny that you mention it.

Aaron Rogers was on the board when we took Derrick Johnson (and we had a QB that was past his 35th birthday)

We traded our first rounder in 2001 for Trent Green instead of standing pat and taking Drew Brees with our first rounder.

In 2004, we traded down and took the great Junior Siavii...the next QB taken after that pick was Matt Schaub. He isnt Ben Rothlisberger, but he sure would have been nice to have after Trent Green went down in the opener 2 years later (in which he would have been totally acclimated into the offense and ready to go)

In 2009, there were two legit QB prospects on the board when we shit on the board and took Tyson Jackson. Mark Sanchez seems to be fizzling a bit, but the fact that his play raised a level in the playoffs is very telling...Josh Freeman was a local kid that was worthy of the pick (even though I didnt really like him) and seems like the real deal (albeit the sophomore slump of sorts)

At one point or another (and it may already be happening) the fans are gonna turn their back on this team if they dont put a product on the field that is fun to watch and that isnt gonna happen if we continue to pass on legit QB prospects OVER AND OVER to pick up other teams backup players.

There really is no legit argument that can be made against this post.

Mark Sanchez isn't a special QB, much less a franchise QB. He did well when he played behind one of the best lines in football, but now that he doesn't have that anymore he's in the same mediocre class as Matt Cassel.

Yes, we've had a few opportunities over the years to land a good QB, but you have to go back two coaches and one GM to find them. The current regime took a shot and ended up with Matt Cassel. Given the long odds against getting the right guy without the benefit of hindsight, that's not so surprising. Hopefully, they'll take a second shot this off-season.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 05:35 PM
Mark Sanchez isn't a special QB, much less a franchise QB. He did well when he played behind one of the best lines in football, but now that he doesn't have that anymore he's in the same mediocre class as Matt Cassel.

Yes, we've had a few opportunities over the years to land a good QB, but you have to go back two coaches and one GM to find them. The current regime took a shot and ended up with Matt Cassel. Given the long odds against getting the right guy without the benefit of hindsight, that's not so surprising. Hopefully, they'll take a second shot this off-season.

You can't use hindsight when you play this game.

Bottom line, you must have a QB who can sling it around the field.

Problem with the Chiefs is they don't even TRY to draft one.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 06:20 PM
You can't use hindsight when you play this game.

Yes. That's my point.

Bottom line, you must have a QB who can sling it around the field.

Problem with the Chiefs is they don't even TRY to draft one.

They tried by trading for Trent Green and then for Matt Cassel. I'm OK with it if that's not good enough for you and for others. I'm also OK with it if you or anyone else decides they can't root for the Chiefs anymore and if you switch allegiances. My parting advice would be to choose a new team with a franchise QB already in place though because it's a lot easier to find a GM who's as smart as you are that way.

BigMeatballDave
11-25-2011, 06:24 PM
Yes. That's my point.



They tried by trading for Trent Green and then for Matt Cassel. I'm OK with it if that's not good enough for you and for others. I'm also OK with it if you or anyone else decides they can't root for the Chiefs anymore and if you switch allegiances. My parting advice would be to choose a new team with a franchise QB already in place though because it's a lot easier to find a GM who's as smart as you are that way.

:rolleyes:

whoman69
11-25-2011, 07:05 PM
Yes. That's my point.



They tried by trading for Trent Green and then for Matt Cassel. I'm OK with it if that's not good enough for you and for others. I'm also OK with it if you or anyone else decides they can't root for the Chiefs anymore and if you switch allegiances. My parting advice would be to choose a new team with a franchise QB already in place though because it's a lot easier to find a GM who's as smart as you are that way.

Mediocre is good enough for you? 18 years without a playoff win is good enough for you? 41 years since their last trip to the Super Bowl is good enough for you? What everyone is trying to say is the Chiefs continually try to take a shortcut by trading for a retread or the backup of the moment. It hasn't worked. You don't get anywhere by not taking chances. The Chiefs were scared off in 1983 thinking that Todd Blackledge was better than Dan Marino and Jim Kelly when in reality even Tony Eason and Ken O'Brien were better than Blackledge. They stopped trying. The list doesn't stop with Trent Green or Matt Cassel so don't pretend it does.

milkman
11-25-2011, 07:22 PM
When was the last time the Chiefs had a good chance to draft a QB who has turned out to be elite?

2006 we took Tamba Hali instead of Kellen Clemens, Tavaris Jackson, and Charlie Whitehurst.

2007 we took Dwayne Bowe instead of Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton.

2008 we took Glenn Dorsey instead of Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm, and Chad Henne.

2009 we took Tyson Jackson instead of Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, and Pat White.

2010 we took Eric Berry instead of Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, and Colt McCoy.

2011 we took Jonathan Baldwin instead of Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, and Ryan Mallet.

I can remember a lot of ChiefsPlanet advocacy for Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, and Jimmy Clausen and pockets of advocacy for a few others, but none of those guys are panning out so far. Josh Freeman might grow into a Ben Rothlisberger type but that remains to be seen. Andy Dalton is doing well, but it's too early to tell. So you tell me, where was our Rogers-Brees-Rothlisberger in that list?

All you did here was point out the very fact that we have been talking about.

The Chiefs have never even fucking tried.

That is frustrating as hell.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 07:26 PM
They tried by trading for Trent Green and then for Matt Cassel. I'm OK with it if that's not good enough for you and for others. I'm also OK with it if you or anyone else decides they can't root for the Chiefs anymore and if you switch allegiances. My parting advice would be to choose a new team with a franchise QB already in place though because it's a lot easier to find a GM who's as smart as you are that way.

Except that Trent Green actually DID sling the ball all over the field in his previous stop.

In the few games he played for St Louis in 2000, he passed the ball for an outrageous NINE yards per attempt.

You can't say they "tried" with Cassel because the overwhelming evidence was that he was a sack machine and completely lacked a deep ball.

Some of us were willing to ignore that and hope that it wasn't true - we were wrong.

htismaqe
11-25-2011, 07:27 PM
Mediocre is good enough for you? 18 years without a playoff win is good enough for you? 41 years since their last trip to the Super Bowl is good enough for you?

Um, I hate to be even MORE negative, but that doesn't even qualify for "mediocre".

That's HORRIBLE. That's Detroit Lions-ish in terms of fail.

philfree
11-25-2011, 08:13 PM
Um, I hate to be even MORE negative, but that doesn't even qualify for "mediocre".

That's HORRIBLE. That's Detroit Lions-ish in terms of fail.

Yeah Chiefs Fans and that includes me like to throw around the term "mediocre" when we really suck.

patteeu
11-25-2011, 08:18 PM
Mediocre is good enough for you? 18 years without a playoff win is good enough for you? 41 years since their last trip to the Super Bowl is good enough for you? What everyone is trying to say is the Chiefs continually try to take a shortcut by trading for a retread or the backup of the moment. It hasn't worked. You don't get anywhere by not taking chances. The Chiefs were scared off in 1983 thinking that Todd Blackledge was better than Dan Marino and Jim Kelly when in reality even Tony Eason and Ken O'Brien were better than Blackledge. They stopped trying. The list doesn't stop with Trent Green or Matt Cassel so don't pretend it does.

Are you trolling?

milkman
11-25-2011, 08:50 PM
Yeah Chiefs Fans ans that includes me like to throw around the term "mediocre" when we really suck.

The Chiefs were awful through the late 70s and 80s, but they were mired in mediocrity through most of the 90s and early 2000s, finally returning to terrible for most of the last 5 years.

But all that adds up to 40+ years of suck.

milkman
11-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Are you trolling?

If by trolling, you mean he's pointing out your dumbassey, then yes, he's trolling.

Simply Red
11-25-2011, 08:56 PM
cassel sucks, we already knew that

palko sucks, we already knew that

the OL was fine in pass protection for palko, who sucks but doesn't shit his pants in the pocket like that worthless pussy matt cassel...

in summary: Cassel is a piece of shit

this is basically exactly how I feel. Plus Palko is very likable, Cassel has developed a pouty face, like Rivers has. But Rivers would kick both Palko and Cassels' ass in the NFL or on the playground.

patteeu
11-26-2011, 05:41 AM
If by trolling, you mean he's pointing out your dumbassey, then yes, he's trolling.

He can't be pointing out my "dumbassey" because I never said anything about mediocre being good enough for me. It's the rest of you whiners who have unrealistic expectations who are the real dumbasses. Move on to a different team already.

htismaqe
11-26-2011, 06:14 AM
He can't be pointing out my "dumbassey" because I never said anything about mediocre being good enough for me. It's the rest of you whiners who have unrealistic expectations who are the real dumbasses. Move on to a different team already.

So expecting our team to win a playoff game once every TWENTY YEARS is unrealistic?

Are you Clark Hunt by any chance?

farmerchief
11-26-2011, 06:48 AM
After watching Palko last week, I was reminded what I liked and didnt like about him in preseason. Compared to Cassel, he seems to have quicker feet, in the sense he gets back and sets up quicker than Cassel, also appears to see the field rather well, by being able to look to different receivers. But, he is very, very, inaccurate with his throws, and I'm not sure if his arm is any stronger than Cassel or not. His inaccuracy, his probably his downfall.

whoman69
11-26-2011, 07:21 AM
He can't be pointing out my "dumbassey" because I never said anything about mediocre being good enough for me. It's the rest of you whiners who have unrealistic expectations who are the real dumbasses. Move on to a different team already.

Wow. Unrealistic expectations, like winning playoff games and trying to actually develop a QB. Set the bar a bit higher. Nobody is saying we need to win 5 Super Bowls in a row. One would be great.

Since we last won a Super Bowl (or went to a Super Bowl for that matter) teams like New Orleans and Tampa Bay have won, while other perennial losers like Atlanta have been to a Super Bowl. Every other team in our division including Seattle have been to a Super Bowl. Unrealistic expectations? What the hell are your expectations?

patteeu
11-26-2011, 08:02 AM
So expecting our team to win a playoff game once every TWENTY YEARS is unrealistic?

Are you Clark Hunt by any chance?

Expecting them to have made all the right choices (Rodgers) at QB that you (i.e. the collective CP braintrust) can see now with hindsight while avoiding all the failed choices that you suggested in advance of each year's draft (Sanchez, Clausen, etc.) is unrealistic. Expecting them to take a shot here and there is not unrealistic. Not recognizing that they took that shot by acquiring Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac, Trent Green and Matt Cassel is delusional.

You don't have to be happy with the results, but if it really upsets you you can avoid them by switching teams. I can't count the number of times that planeteers have said "if X happens one more time I'm done with this team" but then when it happens they don't leave. I'd just like to see them either go or quit throwing temper tantrums.

patteeu
11-26-2011, 08:05 AM
Wow. Unrealistic expectations, like winning playoff games and trying to actually develop a QB. Set the bar a bit higher. Nobody is saying we need to win 5 Super Bowls in a row. One would be great.

Since we last won a Super Bowl (or went to a Super Bowl for that matter) teams like New Orleans and Tampa Bay have won, while other perennial losers like Atlanta have been to a Super Bowl. Every other team in our division including Seattle have been to a Super Bowl. Unrealistic expectations? What the hell are your expectations?

You're not smart. Work harder at trying to decipher my apparently cryptic-to-you posts.

milkman
11-26-2011, 08:21 AM
Expecting them to have made all the right choices (Rodgers) at QB that you (i.e. the collective CP braintrust) can see now with hindsight while avoiding all the failed choices that you suggested in advance of each year's draft (Sanchez, Clausen, etc.) is unrealistic. Expecting them to take a shot here and there is not unrealistic. Not recognizing that they took that shot by acquiring Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac, Trent Green and Matt Cassel is delusional.

You don't have to be happy with the results, but if it really upsets you you can avoid them by switching teams. I can't count the number of times that planeteers have said "if X happens one more time I'm done with this team" but then when it happens they don't leave. I'd just like to see them either go or quit throwing temper tantrums.

My expectation, you useless ****ing dumbass, is for the Chiefs to try to develop their own QB.

My expectation, you stupid little prick, is for the Chiefs to look at the history of championships teams, and to recognize that trying, by trading for or signing washed up veterans, and rejects, is far less successful than growing your own.

My expectation, for even an idiot like you, is for you to recognize, when someone says "If x happens one more time I'm done with this this team" is only an expression of frustration.

You know, something someone with a hint of intelligence might feel, even with minimal expectations.

whoman69
11-26-2011, 08:35 AM
You're not smart. Work harder at trying to decipher my apparently cryptic-to-you posts.

Smart is following the same strategy that has failed for the last 40 years then? You are officially insane. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Insanity is pretty cryptic I guess.

whoman69
11-26-2011, 08:37 AM
You're not smart. Work harder at trying to decipher my apparently cryptic-to-you posts.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1335026463900&id=4f73b5de81e5924208a9bfb8c9476d65&url=http%3a%2f%2fstatic.fjcdn.com%2fpictures%2fFull%2bRetard_5c4212_469785.jpg

patteeu
11-26-2011, 09:28 AM
My expectation, you useless ****ing dumbass, is for the Chiefs to try to develop their own QB.

My expectation, you stupid little prick, is for the Chiefs to look at the history of championships teams, and to recognize that trying, by trading for or signing washed up veterans, and rejects, is far less successful than growing your own.

My expectation, for even an idiot like you, is for you to recognize, when someone says "If x happens one more time I'm done with this this team" is only an expression of frustration.

You know, something someone with a hint of intelligence might feel, even with minimal expectations.

Get a grip on yourself and stop whining like a baby.

patteeu
11-26-2011, 09:28 AM
Smart is following the same strategy that has failed for the last 40 years then? You are officially insane. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Insanity is pretty cryptic I guess.

Herp derp

milkman
11-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Get a grip on yourself and stop whining like a baby.

I see the problem now.

You're too fucking stupid to discern the difference between whining and bitching, so how the hell should anyone expect you to to understand anything else?

I've been a fan of this team for longer than you've been alive, probably closer to twice as long as you've been alive.

I've earned the right to bitch.

You got a problem with that?

Go tell someone who fucking cares.

htismaqe
11-26-2011, 10:21 AM
Expecting them to have made all the right choices (Rodgers) at QB that you (i.e. the collective CP braintrust) can see now with hindsight while avoiding all the failed choices that you suggested in advance of each year's draft (Sanchez, Clausen, etc.) is unrealistic.

I guess I missed where I said that was my expectation. Oh wait, I DIDN'T.

I expect them to TRY and get a competent QB in a game that REVOLVES around QBs. They're not trying.

Expecting them to take a shot here and there is not unrealistic. Not recognizing that they took that shot by acquiring Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac, Trent Green and Matt Cassel is delusional.

A QB actually has to have potential to qualify as "taking a shot". They tried with Grbac, I'll give them that. And they absolutely tried with Green.

The evidence against Cassel was right there, BEFORE the trade. I ignored it then but watching him play was all it took for me to realize I was DEAD wrong.

whoman69
11-26-2011, 10:23 AM
I see the problem now.

You're too ****ing stupid to discern the difference between whining and bitching, so how the hell should anyone expect you to to understand anything else?

I've been a fan of this team for longer than you've been alive, probably closer to twice as long as you've been alive.

I've earned the right to bitch.

You got a problem with that?

Go tell someone who ****ing cares.

He doesn't even pay attention to what anyone says except to take something out of context and put his own slant on it.

whoman69
11-26-2011, 10:24 AM
Herp derp

Going forward this should be all your responses. They need to put your picture beside that phrase in the urban dictionary.

BigMeatballDave
11-26-2011, 11:14 AM
He doesn't even pay attention to what anyone says except to take something out of context and put his own slant on it.I'm done arguing with him. He's just trolling at this point.

L.A. Chieffan
11-26-2011, 11:17 AM
Patteu pretty much nailed it in this thread

BigMeatballDave
11-26-2011, 11:27 AM
Patteu pretty much nailed it in this threadSchtick is played out, dude.

L.A. Chieffan
11-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Schtick is played out, dude.

Not sure what you mean man, unless being a hardcore chiefs fan is a shtick then guilty as charged

JCharles1981
11-26-2011, 04:38 PM
I think the answer is both. When Cassell is only given a 3 second window of opportunity to get rid of the ball, he is either sacked, scrambles away from defenders, or throws a bad pass that is overthrown or turns into an interception. However, he also has the tendency to throw interceptions even when he has plenty of time to throw. As far as I'm concerned, his efficiency isn't any better than Elvis Grbac's was.

As far as Palko goes, I don't think many fans are giving him the benefit of the doubt since last Monday night was his first NFL start. He needs a few more games to develop his own style of passing before anyone assumes he can't do any better than Cassell.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 04:42 PM
I think the answer is both. When Cassell is only given a 3 second window of opportunity to get rid of the ball, he is either sacked, scrambles away from defenders, or throws a bad pass that is overthrown or turns into an interception. However, he also has the tendency to throw interceptions even when he has plenty of time to throw. As far as I'm concerned, his efficiency isn't any better than Elvis Grbac's was.

As far as Palko goes, I don't think many fans are giving him the benefit of the doubt since last Monday night was his first NFL start. He needs a few more games to develop his own style of passing before anyone assumes he can't do any better than Cassell.

Palko was a million times better at the mental aspect of the game. It's unfortunate that his arm is a liability that is unfixable. He can't make half of the throws.

What it highlighted to most of us is that Cassel's mental inability to process the game is a huge liability.

crossbow
11-26-2011, 04:49 PM
I think we confirmed the fact that our team sucks. We need a creative offensive coordinator, franchise QB, RT, LG, and Center. Oh and the Tight End that we passed on to get McCluster torched us mercilessly.

FringeNC
11-26-2011, 04:49 PM
Palko was a million times better at the mental aspect of the game. It's unfortunate that his arm is a liability that is unfixable. He can't make half of the throws.

What it highlighted to most of us is that Cassel's mental inability to process the game is a huge liability.

Nice summary.

BigMeatballDave
11-26-2011, 04:53 PM
I think we confirmed the fact that our team sucks. We need a creative offensive coordinator, franchise QB, RT, LG, and Center. Oh and the Tight End that we passed on to get McCluster torched us mercilessly.

Hudson is the future at G or C. We need 2 more solid pieces and this line could be very good.

WhiteWhale
11-26-2011, 04:53 PM
Flacco is kind of an odd case.

He has beaten Roethlisberger twice this year, and had two very good games against Pitt.

I actually really like him, he just seems to have games where he completely shits the bed.

I'd take him as our QB in a second though. He's having a bit of a down year but long term, I think he's going to be very good.

Alex Smith is shit.
Flacco and Matt Ryan have almost identical career statistics. Flacco has more post-season success.

Yet it's Flacco who takes heat in the media while Ryan is touted as 'the next big thing'.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 04:55 PM
Flacco and Matt Ryan have almost identical career statistics. Flacco's team has more post-season success.

Yet it's Flacco who takes heat in the media while Ryan is touted as 'the next big thing'.

FYP He's been awful, absolutely awful in the playoffs outside of the Chiefs game. He can thank Ray Lewis and that defense for his playoff success.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 04:55 PM
I think we confirmed the fact that our team sucks. We need a creative offensive coordinator, franchise QB, RT, LG, and Center. Oh and the Tight End that we passed on to get McCluster torched us mercilessly.

Our team doesn't suck.

Our supporting talent is better than New Orleans and arguably New England. Geed enough for Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Big Ben, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Jay Cutler, or Tony Romo to turn into a very tough football team.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 04:57 PM
Flacco and Matt Ryan have almost identical career statistics. Flacco has more post-season success.

Yet it's Flacco who takes heat in the media while Ryan is touted as 'the next big thing'.

Flacco has arguably the best RB in the league and a top 5 defense in the league. And he has a terrific receiver and receiving TE. If all he did the entire game was hand off the ball and fart, the team would be competitive. I'd take Ryan over Flacco any day of the week.

KC Tattoo
11-26-2011, 04:57 PM
I think the answer is both. When Cassell is only given a 3 second window of opportunity to get rid of the ball, he is either sacked, scrambles away from defenders, or throws a bad pass that is overthrown or turns into an interception. However, he also has the tendency to throw interceptions even when he has plenty of time to throw. As far as I'm concerned, his efficiency isn't any better than Elvis Grbac's was.

As far as Palko goes, I don't think many fans are giving him the benefit of the doubt since last Monday night was his first NFL start. He needs a few more games to develop his own style of passing before anyone assumes he can't do any better than Cassell.

Why should we give Palko the binefit of doubt at age 28 and has been cut by numerous teams, couldn't cut it in any other league even. All he is a Rudy Ruettiger story. Palko can have all the heart in the world and good work ethic good for him. He is not the only one with heart and good work ethic in the world.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Flacco has arguably the best RB in the league and a top 5 defense in the league. And he has a terrific receiver and receiving TE. If all he did the entire game was hand off the ball and fart, the team would be competitive. I'd take Ryan over Flacco any day of the week.

They pretty much beat the Pats like that one year in the playoffs ROFL

WhiteWhale
11-26-2011, 05:13 PM
Flacco has arguably the best RB in the league and a top 5 defense in the league. And he has a terrific receiver and receiving TE. If all he did the entire game was hand off the ball and fart, the team would be competitive. I'd take Ryan over Flacco any day of the week.

I forgot that Roddy White, Tony Gonzalaz, and Michael Turner were such scrubs. Ryan is practically doing it all by himself. I'd say they're considerably better than what Flacco has on offense.

Also, Ray Rice is a solid back, but he's not even in the argument for best RB in the league.

Their situations are not incomparable.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:16 PM
Ryan doesn't have a top 5 defense to lean on. Usually the only time the Ravens lose is when Flacco shits his pants.

WhiteWhale
11-26-2011, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=WhiteWhale;8143083]I forgot that Roddy White, Tony Gonzalaz, and Michael Turner were such scrubs. Ryan is practically doing it all by himself. I'd say they're considerably better than what Flacco has on offense.

Also, Ray Rice is a solid back, but he's not even in the argument for best RB in the league.

Their situations are not incomparable.

Ryan doesn't have a top 5 defense to lean on. Usually the only time the Ravens lose is when Flacco shits his pants.

The Falcons were 5th in points allowed last season, and they lost in the playoffs after Ryan had a bad game. Granted, they were 16th in yards, but games are won by points.. not yards. I put far more stock in 'points allowed' than "yards allowed'.

Ryan has a better offense, Flacco has a better defense. Both guys tend to play poorly in the post-season and their regular season stats are very similar. Baltimore's offense is actually consistently better than Atlanta's, in spite of having what I feel is less overall offensive talent.

The difference between them is minimal, but the media has already anointed Ryan so they won't be critical of him.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:20 PM
Ryan hasn't ascended as high as I thought he would by now, but I like his game better than Flacco.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:23 PM
I forgot that Roddy White, Tony Gonzalaz, and Michael Turner were such scrubs. Ryan is practically doing it all by himself. I'd say they're considerably better than what Flacco has on offense.

Also, Ray Rice is a solid back, but he's not even in the argument for best RB in the league.

Their situations are not incomparable.

Boldin/Heap > White/Gonzalez
Ray Rice > Michael Turner

Rice is absolutely in the conversation for best RB in the league. Terrific back. Powerful but also fast. And a threat in the passing game. Along with MJD, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, Rice... the next tier is a distant second.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:27 PM
Boldin/Heap > White/Gonzalez
Ray Rice > Michael Turner

Rice is absolutely in the conversation for best RB in the league. Terrific back. Powerful but also fast. And a threat in the passing game. Along with MJD, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, Rice... the next tier is a distant second.

I hope you omitted Charles because he's hurt. He is top tier along with Arian Foster. I don't see how those guys are a "distant second".

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:27 PM
Boldin/Heap > White/Gonzalez
Ray Rice > Michael Turner

Rice is absolutely in the conversation for best RB in the league. Terrific back. Powerful but also fast. And a threat in the passing game. Along with MJD, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, Rice... the next tier is a distant second.

Sorry... for now, Dickson/Boldin < White/Gonzalez, but not by much. Add in Lee Evans vs. Atlanta's #2/3, who are garbage... Atlanta's offense is definitely not worse than Baltimore's.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:28 PM
I hope you omitted Charles because he's hurt. He is top tier along with Arian Foster. I don't see how those guys are a "distant second".

I am a huge fan of Charles, but you simply cannot compare him to those guys above who are every down backs that can carry the ball anywhere on the field. Foster is a close second, but I would not put him in the same class as that group.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:28 PM
Huh?? Atlanta has Julio Jones who is already better than Evans. White and Gonzalez are a better duo even if Baltimore still had Heap.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:31 PM
I am a huge fan of Charles, but you simply cannot compare him to those guys above who are every down backs that can carry the ball anywhere on the field. Foster is a close second, but I would not put him in the same class as that group.

I'd take a healthy Charles any day over Jones-Drew. He's worth a TD a game to this offense. He changes games. I'd take a guy like that over a "work horse" any day.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:35 PM
I'd take a healthy Charles any day over Jones-Drew. He's worth a TD a game to this offense. He changes games. I'd take a guy like that over a "work horse" any day.

If it's even possible, the Jags have had a worse QB situation than the Chiefs. You couldn't ask for a worse supporting cast than what Jones-Drew has. Jones-Drew wears defenses out. If he had a QB that could actually take advantage of that, the Jags would be ridiculously dangerous late in the game. He can carry the ball more often. Be on the field every down. Do short-yardage as well as long-yardage.

BigMeatballDave
11-26-2011, 05:36 PM
I am a huge fan of Charles, but you simply cannot compare him to those guys above who are every down backs that can carry the ball anywhere on the field. Foster is a close second, but I would not put him in the same class as that group.:spock:

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:37 PM
Huh?? Atlanta has Julio Jones who is already better than Evans. White and Gonzalez are a better duo even if Baltimore still had Heap.

That's true. Honestly, was thinking of last year instead of this year.

Still doesn't change the idea that whereas I think Flacco has games gift wrapped for him, Ryan has to lead wins for the Falcons.

Pasta Giant Meatball
11-26-2011, 05:39 PM
That's true. Honestly, was thinking of last year instead of this year.

Still doesn't change the idea that whereas I think Flacco has games gift wrapped for him, Ryan has to lead wins for the Falcons.

I've already agreed with you on that part.

chiefzilla1501
11-26-2011, 05:41 PM
I've already agreed with you on that part.

Nah, I'm just admitting I hadn't thought through changes from this year. Ryan definitely has a very good supporting cast to work with.

htismaqe
11-26-2011, 05:53 PM
Flacco has arguably the best RB in the league and a top 5 defense in the league. And he has a terrific receiver and receiving TE. If all he did the entire game was hand off the ball and fart, the team would be competitive. I'd take Ryan over Flacco any day of the week.

That's pretty much what Matt Ryan does...oh, and choke in the big games...

htismaqe
11-26-2011, 05:55 PM
That's true. Honestly, was thinking of last year instead of this year.

Still doesn't change the idea that whereas I think Flacco has games gift wrapped for him, Ryan has to lead wins for the Falcons.

That's why they can go 13-3 and then flame out in the playoffs...

patteeu
11-27-2011, 06:02 AM
I've been a fan of this team for longer than you've been alive, probably closer to twice as long as you've been alive.

Not likely.

Okie_Apparition
11-27-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm not buying into the "Pioli won't draft a 1st round QB" talk.

If you want to count the Patriots on his resume. After Brady become Brady there was no point in drafting a first round QB.

When he came to the Chiefs he dragged Cassel along to give him his shot. Give him three years to prove himself. Two years should have been enough & a better backup should have been on the roster. FAIL

Last draft the consensus was trading down was difficult. So he only passed on Sanchez. A 1 to 2 year starting junior. Claussen who's own college coach was in house

Count Zarth
11-27-2011, 11:12 AM
When he came to the Chiefs he dragged Cassel along to give him his shot. Give him three years to prove himself.

Then why did they sign him to a $63 million contract?

Pioli thought Cassel was a franchise QB, there was no "giving him a shot."

Complete waste of money.

Okie_Apparition
11-27-2011, 11:17 AM
They put outs in Cassel's contract & didn't use them
Pioli got pwned by Cassel for two & half years
No contest

BossChief
11-27-2011, 11:19 AM
I was fine with the trade for Cassel...what sent me over the edge was the contract. That's when I felt like my heart was ripped out.

Okie_Apparition
11-27-2011, 11:23 AM
Urban legend from me at this point. But they needed to reach the cap minimum
The league should check in to it to see if Pioli got a kickback from Cassel

Chiefaholic
11-27-2011, 11:23 AM
No, i dont think Palko is the answer by any means, but i thought he got rid of ball quicker than Cassel and was more decisive getting rid of it.

I do think Palko might have a chance to develop into a decent backup QB.

What was everyone else's take?

Without wasting the time to read through three pages of responses, the answer to the topic is YES. This team needs serious improvements to both the O-Line and QB. Casshole obviously isn't the answer, given time he still misses wide open targets and doesn't check off his primary target often enough. The O-Line lets too much pressure in the backfield on both passing and running plays. If you put Charles behind the line of the 90's, he'de have the potential to gain 200 yards. Albert needs to step up and play to his potential, or slide over to the LG spot. Hudson needs to play to his potential and take over for CW at center or Lilja at guard (Depending on what Albert does at LT). CW is done, this is the draft or FA we replace him. Asamoah earned the RG position and looks like a keeper. Richardson needs to be given an eviction notice and never step foot in Arrowhead again. Jared Gaither just signed a one year deal, so it's time for him to put up or shut up. He has the athletic potential to tie down one of the tackle positions if he pulls his head out.

BigMeatballDave
11-27-2011, 11:28 AM
I was fine with the trade for Cassel...what sent me over the edge was the contract. That's when I felt like my heart was ripped out.The Contract? Why? LOL

Chiefshrink
11-27-2011, 11:28 AM
No, i dont think Palko is the answer by any means, but i thought he got rid of ball quicker than Cassel and was more decisive getting rid of it.

I do think Palko might have a chance to develop into a decent backup QB.

What was everyone else's take?

It's both:thumb: New QB, Hudson needs to start at C and Richardson needs to be gone ASAP. Move Albert over to RG and either draft a LT or pick one up in FA.

BigMeatballDave
11-27-2011, 11:30 AM
Complete waste of money.Why do you care? Its not your money. It didnt give us cap issues.

BossChief
11-27-2011, 11:30 AM
The Contract? Why? LOL

Because I had seen what the guy brought to the table and came away unimpressed. Signing him to that contract meant hew was "the guy" for the foreseeable future and that the hope for us to draft a real franchise QB was not realistic for another 3 years, minimum.

He should have had to EARN that contract IMO.

Rausch
11-27-2011, 11:31 AM
Why do you care? Its not your money. It didnt give us cap issues.

This...

BigMeatballDave
11-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Because I had seen what the guy brought to the table and came away unimpressed. Signing him to that contract meant hew was "the guy" for the foreseeable future and that the hope for us to draft a real franchise QB was not realistic for another 3 years, minimum.

He should have had to EARN that contract IMO.That is precisely why they gave him that contract. Pioli wanted Cassel to know that he was THE guy. No worries. Just go out and play.

It failed. Pioli needs to move on.

htismaqe
11-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Why do you care? Its not your money. It didnt give us cap issues.

He didn't have a problem with the contract.

It's what the amount of said contract actually meant for the team - aka Matt Cassel is the undisputed starting QB for at least 3 years.