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Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:20 AM
Isn't this cool?

I just bought a Jaguar S-Type yesterday afternoon. A couple hours later, the check engine light came on. I had the codes pulled, and it came up as P0443 (possible fuel canister/emission issue). It also showed that the codes were recently cleared and/or the battery was recently disconnected.

Anyone have any idea what the issue may be? Also, any suggestions as to how to handle this with the dealer? It's a reasonably reputable dealer, so I would be pretty surprised to learn that they intentionally reset the light just to sell a damaged car, but it's starting to look that way.

Any thoughts?

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:25 AM
if it's a dealer and you just got it take it back to him now. It's his problem and if he does not agree sue his ass

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:27 AM
Do not drag your feet do not try to fix it yourself, in NC you have a certain amount of time until a deal is final on cars from dealers.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:28 AM
if it's a dealer and you just got it take it back to him now. It's his problem and if he does not agree sue his ass

I took it back this morning. They said that they could look at it on Monday. Also, since it's you, I'll add that I paid cash for the car (honestly).

Bwana
11-26-2011, 08:33 AM
This should expain it well:

Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit

What does that mean?

The Evaporative Emissions System (EVAP) allows fumes from the gas tank to enter the engine to be burned, rather than vented into the atmosphere as an emission. The purge valve solenoid is supplied switched battery voltage. The ECM controls the valve by operating the ground circuit, opening the purge valve at specific times allowing these gasses to enter the engine. The ECM monitors the ground circuit as well, watching for faults. When the purge solenoid isn't activated, the ECM should see a high voltage on the ground circuit. When the solenoid is activated, the ECM should see the ground voltage pulled low, close to zero. If the ECM doesn't see these expected voltages, or senses an open in the circuit, this code is set.
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Potential Symptoms

P0443 trouble code symptoms could be just an malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination. There may be no drivability problems at all. But, it's also possible to have a lean condition or a rough running engine if the purge valve is stuck open. Usually though, these symptoms are accompanied by other EVAP codes. Another symptom may be excessive pressure in the gas tank in the form of a "whooshing" sound when the cap is removed, indicating a purge valve that isn't working at all or stuck closed.

Causes



To cause a P0443, there has to be a problem with the purge control CIRCUIT, not necessarily the valve. Usually they are a unit housing the valve and the solenoid as an assembly. Or it could be comprised of a separate solenoid with vacuum lines to a purge valve. That said, it could be any of the following:

<LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="43">Bad purge solenoid (internal short or open) <LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="42">Wiring harness chafing or rubbing another component causing short or open on control circuit <LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="41">Connector worn, broken or shorted due to water intrusion
Driver circuit inside powertrain control module (PCM) is bad
Possible Solutions

1. Using a scan tool, command the purge solenoid to activate. Listen or feel for a clicking coming from the purge solenoid. It should click once, or on some models it may click repeatedly.

2. If it doesn't click with scan tool activation, unplug the connector and examing the solenoid and connector for damage, water, etc. Then check for battery voltage on the feed wire with the key on. If you have battery voltage, then ground the control side manually using a jumper wire and see if the valve clicks. If it does, then you know the solenoid is working properly but there is a problem with the control circuit. If it doesn't click when you manually ground it, replace the purge solenoid.

3. To check for a problem on the control circuit (if the solenoid tests okay and you have voltage to the solenoid) plug the solenoid back in and remove the control circuit (ground) wire from the ECM connector (If you're unsure how to do this, do not attempt). With the ground wire removed from the ECM, turn the key on and then manually ground the Purge valve control wire. The solenoid should click. If it does, then you know there is no problem with the control wire to the solenoid and there is a problem with the ECM purge solenoid driver circuit in the ECM. You'll need a new ECM. However if it doesn't click, then there must be an open in the wiring between the ECM and and the solenoid. You must find it and repair it.

Bob Dole
11-26-2011, 08:35 AM
Did you check the headlight fluid?

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:36 AM
I took it back this morning. They said that they could look at it on Monday. Also, since it's you, I'll add that I paid cash for the car (honestly).

Cool, document everything, unless you want to see how fast nice people turn nasty when money is involved.


Did you make them give you a loaner?

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:36 AM
Did you check the headlight fluid?

Obviously.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:36 AM
Cool, document everything, unless you want to see how fast nice people turn nasty when money is involved.


Did you make them give you a loaner?

I didn't leave it with them.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:37 AM
This should expain it well:

Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit

What does that mean?

The Evaporative Emissions System (EVAP) allows fumes from the gas tank to enter the engine to be burned, rather than vented into the atmosphere as an emission. The purge valve solenoid is supplied switched battery voltage. The ECM controls the valve by operating the ground circuit, opening the purge valve at specific times allowing these gasses to enter the engine. The ECM monitors the ground circuit as well, watching for faults. When the purge solenoid isn't activated, the ECM should see a high voltage on the ground circuit. When the solenoid is activated, the ECM should see the ground voltage pulled low, close to zero. If the ECM doesn't see these expected voltages, or senses an open in the circuit, this code is set.
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Potential Symptoms

P0443 trouble code symptoms could be just an malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination. There may be no drivability problems at all. But, it's also possible to have a lean condition or a rough running engine if the purge valve is stuck open. Usually though, these symptoms are accompanied by other EVAP codes. Another symptom may be excessive pressure in the gas tank in the form of a "whooshing" sound when the cap is removed, indicating a purge valve that isn't working at all or stuck closed.

Causes



To cause a P0443, there has to be a problem with the purge control CIRCUIT, not necessarily the valve. Usually they are a unit housing the valve and the solenoid as an assembly. Or it could be comprised of a separate solenoid with vacuum lines to a purge valve. That said, it could be any of the following:

<LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="43">Bad purge solenoid (internal short or open) <LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="42">Wiring harness chafing or rubbing another component causing short or open on control circuit <LI itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="41">Connector worn, broken or shorted due to water intrusion
Driver circuit inside powertrain control module (PCM) is bad
Possible Solutions

1. Using a scan tool, command the purge solenoid to activate. Listen or feel for a clicking coming from the purge solenoid. It should click once, or on some models it may click repeatedly.

2. If it doesn't click with scan tool activation, unplug the connector and examing the solenoid and connector for damage, water, etc. Then check for battery voltage on the feed wire with the key on. If you have battery voltage, then ground the control side manually using a jumper wire and see if the valve clicks. If it does, then you know the solenoid is working properly but there is a problem with the control circuit. If it doesn't click when you manually ground it, replace the purge solenoid.

3. To check for a problem on the control circuit (if the solenoid tests okay and you have voltage to the solenoid) plug the solenoid back in and remove the control circuit (ground) wire from the ECM connector (If you're unsure how to do this, do not attempt). With the ground wire removed from the ECM, turn the key on and then manually ground the Purge valve control wire. The solenoid should click. If it does, then you know there is no problem with the control wire to the solenoid and there is a problem with the ECM purge solenoid driver circuit in the ECM. You'll need a new ECM. However if it doesn't click, then there must be an open in the wiring between the ECM and and the solenoid. You must find it and repair it.

I appreciate the additional info, but I am about as capable of doing this as I am launching a space shuttle using only my toaster.

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:38 AM
I didn't leave it with them.

I would have and I would have left with a nice loaner.
They didn't do you a favor by taking your money you know.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:38 AM
Are there any mechanics in the KC/JOCO area on this board?

bevischief
11-26-2011, 08:38 AM
$1000....

Bugeater
11-26-2011, 08:39 AM
Bob Dole doesn't wtf Bob Dole is talking about. That's a muffler belt issue, it's happened to all 3 of my Jaguars.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:39 AM
I would have and I would have left with a nice loaner.
They didn't do you a favor by taking your money you know.

I'm thinking about stopping my bank draft, but I'm worried that I'd really be opening up myself for some legal problems.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:40 AM
Bob Dole doesn't wtf Bob Dole is talking about. That's a muffler belt issue, it's happened to all 3 of my Jaguars.

They told me Jaguars stopped using mufflers in 2005. I was wondering why it was so loud. It's a 4.1 Liter V-8, so I figured it was just a muscle car.

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:41 AM
I'm thinking about stopping my bank draft, but I'm worried that I'd really be opening up myself for some legal problems.



Q: I drove the car off the lot and just a few days and miles down the road, the car just quit running. Can I do anything?
A: State laws hold dealers responsible if cars they sell don't meet reasonable quality standards. These obligations are called implied warranties - unspoken, unwritten promises from the seller to the buyer. But dealers in most states can use the words "as is" or "with all faults" in a written notice to buyers to eliminate implied warranties. There is no specified time period for implied warranties.
The most common type of implied warranty is the warranty of merchantability. The seller promises that the product offered for sale will do what it's supposed to. That a car will run is an example of a warranty of merchantability. This promise applies to the basic functions of a car. It doesn't cover everything that could go wrong.
Breakdowns and other problems after the sale don't prove the seller breached the warranty of merchantability. A breach occurs only if the buyer can prove that a defect existed at the time of sale. A problem that occurs after the sale may be the result of a defect that existed at the time of sale or not. As a result, a dealer's liability is judged case-by-case.
A warranty of fitness for a particular purpose applies when you buy a vehicle based on the dealer's advice that it is suitable for a particular use. For example, a dealer who suggests you buy a specific vehicle for hauling a trailer in effect is promising that the vehicle will be suitable for that purpose.
If you have a written warranty that doesn't cover your problems, you still may have coverage through implied warranties. That's because when a dealer sells a vehicle with a written warranty or service contract, implied warranties are included automatically. The dealer can't delete this protection. Any limit on an implied warranty's time must be included on the written warranty.

Bwana
11-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Are there any mechanics in the KC/JOCO area on this board?

I'm not trying to be a dickweed, but with that car, you better find a good one. Jags seem to have more than their share of issues and you are not off to a great start with this one.

Bob Dole
11-26-2011, 08:42 AM
Bob Dole doesn't wtf Bob Dole is talking about. That's a muffler belt issue, it's happened to all 3 of my Jaguars.

Only British car Bob Dole has owned was an MGB, and the muffler was chain driven, so Bob Dole didn't think of that.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:43 AM
Q: I drove the car off the lot and just a few days and miles down the road, the car just quit running. Can I do anything?
A: State laws hold dealers responsible if cars they sell don't meet reasonable quality standards. These obligations are called implied warranties - unspoken, unwritten promises from the seller to the buyer. But dealers in most states can use the words "as is" or "with all faults" in a written notice to buyers to eliminate implied warranties. There is no specified time period for implied warranties.
The most common type of implied warranty is the warranty of merchantability. The seller promises that the product offered for sale will do what it's supposed to. That a car will run is an example of a warranty of merchantability. This promise applies to the basic functions of a car. It doesn't cover everything that could go wrong.
Breakdowns and other problems after the sale don't prove the seller breached the warranty of merchantability. A breach occurs only if the buyer can prove that a defect existed at the time of sale. A problem that occurs after the sale may be the result of a defect that existed at the time of sale or not. As a result, a dealer's liability is judged case-by-case.
A warranty of fitness for a particular purpose applies when you buy a vehicle based on the dealer's advice that it is suitable for a particular use. For example, a dealer who suggests you buy a specific vehicle for hauling a trailer in effect is promising that the vehicle will be suitable for that purpose.
If you have a written warranty that doesn't cover your problems, you still may have coverage through implied warranties. That's because when a dealer sells a vehicle with a written warranty or service contract, implied warranties are included automatically. The dealer can't delete this protection. Any limit on an implied warranty's time must be included on the written warranty.

That's where I'm heading so far. The "Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices Law" seems to be pretty clear on this. The diagnostics that were run seem to indicate that the dealer was aware of this problem, didn't disclose it, and actually tried to conceal it.

Bwana
11-26-2011, 08:45 AM
Bob Dole doesn't wtf Bob Dole is talking about. That's a muffler belt issue, it's happened to all 3 of my Jaguars.

I call bullshit. The Jaguar S-Type doesn't have muffler belts, it has muffler bearings!

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:45 AM
Only British car Bob Dole has owned was an MGB, and the muffler was chain driven, so Bob Dole didn't think of that.

I Had a MG Midget , I bet I replaced everything on that car twice but it was one helluva chick magnet in the 80's

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:45 AM
I'm not trying to be a dickweed, but with that car, you better find a good one. Jags seem to have more than their share of issues and you are not off to a great start with this one.

I did some homework on them. What I "learned" is that Jags were pieces of shit many years ago, and they never shook that reputation. They have gotten much better in recent years(I have 3 friends who drive them, and they all love them which is why I considered one in the first place), but their re-sale values are still poor because of outdated perceptions.

burt
11-26-2011, 08:45 AM
That's where I'm heading so far. The "Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices Law" seems to be pretty clear on this. The diagnostics that were run seem to indicate that the dealer was aware of this problem, didn't disclose it, and actually tried to conceal it.

Damn, I hate car dealers........

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:46 AM
I call bullshit. The Jaguar S-Type doesn't have muffler belts, it has muffler bearings!

Lots of good information in this thread.

bevischief
11-26-2011, 08:46 AM
I call bullshit. The Jaguar S-Type doesn't have muffler belts, it has muffler bearings!

ROFL

burt
11-26-2011, 08:47 AM
I call bullshit. The Jaguar S-Type doesn't have muffler belts, it has muffler bearings!

my car seems to have lost it's bearings.......

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:47 AM
That's where I'm heading so far. The "Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices Law" seems to be pretty clear on this. The diagnostics that were run seem to indicate that the dealer was aware of this problem, didn't disclose it, and actually tried to conceal it.

I seriously hope that this dealer has more sense than to refuse your claim since it has not even been 24 hours, if he gets shitty, tell him you will be posting your story in the local craigslist cars for sale by DEALER section several times a week until the problem is resolved.

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 08:49 AM
I seriously hope that this dealer has more sense than to refuse your claim since it has not even been 24 hours, if he gets shitty, tell him you will be posting your story in the local craigslist cars for sale by DEALER section several times a week until the problem is resolved.

No doubt. I'm going to try to resolve this amicably first, though.

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 08:51 AM
No doubt. I'm going to try to resolve this amicably first, though.

Strong minds always dominate against weak mad ones...

burt
11-26-2011, 08:51 AM
No doubt. I'm going to try to resolve this amicably first, though.

This will get much better results than being a pushy dickweed. But keep dickweededness in your back pocket, just in case amicably doesn't work.

Gonzo
11-26-2011, 08:54 AM
You're all full of shit...

Dude, the egr valve is bad. EGR stands for Exhaust/Gas Recycle. The valve takes unburned fuel and exhaust, recycles it and emits it from the tailpipe as peppermint-mocha air freshener. How you test this is:
1. Start engine
2. Walk around to the tailpipe
3. Put mouth over tailpipe
4.????
5. Profit


There you go.
Posted via Mobile Device

Bob Dole
11-26-2011, 09:12 AM
I Had a MG Midget , I bet I replaced everything on that car twice but it was one helluva chick magnet in the 80's

The '77 B wasn't too bad for that when Bob Dole bought it in 1980, either.

There was ALWAYS something wrong with the damned thing, though. Replaced the exhaust manifold at least 5 times because the damned things kept cracking.

3rd&48ers
11-26-2011, 09:16 AM
The '77 B wasn't too bad for that when Bob Dole bought it in 1980, either.

There was ALWAYS something wrong with the damned thing, though. Replaced the exhaust manifold at least 5 times because the damned things kept cracking.

Replaced those shitty bosch stromberg carbs with webers broke and axle once, master cylinder problems brake problems ... Hood latch problem (seriously) going down the highway at 60 and the hood flies up destroying the car but insurance fixed it.

Back then parts were high and I spent all my money working in a restaurant on parts.

evenfall
11-26-2011, 09:18 AM
Take it back in, give him a chance to make it right. Call the salesperson, and let him know that you know it must have just been some kind of mistake and you know they'd want to rectify it.

mikeyis4dcats.
11-26-2011, 09:30 AM
A Jag? Just tell him to keep it and find something more reliable.

Radar Chief
11-26-2011, 09:36 AM
I call bullshit. The Jaguar S-Type doesn't have muffler belts, it has muffler bearings!

Bent Dingle Arm is causing a misalignment of the Marzon Veins to the Lunar Wayne Shaft. He needs to have his inductance reluctance tested and reset, if needed, or he could end up blowing a rod and I'm sure he doesn't want that.

EWOK
11-26-2011, 09:42 AM
I don't know if Kansas has emission laws but in Arizona even if the car is sold "As Is' it must pass emissions for three days after the sale. The evap code is an emission issue. My experance with evap solinoids is usaully a connector issue being broken or corroded or the solindiod is bad.

Brock
11-26-2011, 09:46 AM
No, no commie emissions laws here.

burt
11-26-2011, 09:54 AM
he could end up blowing a rod and I'm sure he doesn't want that.

well, not on the first date, at least.........

Phobia
11-26-2011, 10:05 AM
This is an atrocity but I know exactly how you feel. When I picked up my Lamborghini from the dealer a couple weeks ago, one of the doors was misaligned by a 1/32nd of an inch and causing some deflection at 185 MPH. I took it right back and chewed some service technician ass.

burt
11-26-2011, 10:21 AM
This is an atrocity but I know exactly how you feel. When I picked up my Lamborghini from the dealer a couple weeks ago, one of the doors was misaligned by a 1/32nd of an inch and causing some deflection at 185 MPH. I took it right back and chewed some service technician ass.

even Lambo's don't have Lambo doors anymore.......

Extra Point
11-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Get it done from where you bought it; if they don't fix it, tell them that your lawyer has a johnson rod in his toolbox.

burt
11-26-2011, 10:30 AM
your lawyer has a johnson rod in his toolbox.

My lawer doesn't have a johnson rod. He is a she.

boogblaster
11-26-2011, 10:34 AM
stop ... take it bak ... get ya money bak ... shop around .....

Saul Good
11-26-2011, 10:36 AM
When buying the car, I discussed my wife needing a new SUV soon. I think I'm going to bring in my vehicle and have my wife test drive the most expensive vehicle on the lot. While discussing pricing on said vehicle, I'll certainly mention to my salesman that I admire their integrity and am sure they'll do the right thing with my car so that my wife and I can both enjoy our new toys at Christmas.

burt
11-26-2011, 10:42 AM
When buying the car, I discussed my wife needing a new SUV soon. I think I'm going to bring in my vehicle and have my wife test drive the most expensive vehicle on the lot. While discussing pricing on said vehicle, I'll certainly mention to my salesman that I admire their integrity and am sure they'll do the right thing with my car so that my wife and I can both enjoy our new toys at Christmas.

sorry, but we never buy into this bullshit. Just be humble and honest. We react well to this.

go bowe
11-26-2011, 10:53 AM
Bent Dingle Arm is causing a misalignment of the Marzon Veins to the Lunar Wayne Shaft. He needs to have his inductance reluctance tested and reset, if needed, or he could end up blowing a rod and I'm sure he doesn't want that.

maybe he doesn't want to but i bet rod is all for it...

Gonzo
11-26-2011, 11:03 AM
This is an atrocity but I know exactly how you feel. When I picked up my Lamborghini from the dealer a couple weeks ago, one of the doors was misaligned by a 1/32nd of an inch and causing some deflection at 185 MPH. I took it right back and chewed some service technician ass.

Heh,
I know how you feel. Can you believe how pretentious those ass holes at the Lambo dealer are? That's why I'll only buy Ferrari's anymore. Those guys aren't nearly as stuck up.

Speaking of which, I took my Porche SUV in last week because the passenger side seat heater was 3 degrees cooler than the driver's side when on the medium setting. It took them nearly 4 hours to swap it out and the only loaner they had available was last years 911...
Ya right! Like I'm going to go shopping in that!? All the guys at the Apple store will laugh at me.
Posted via Mobile Device

jjjayb
11-26-2011, 11:12 AM
When buying the car, I discussed my wife needing a new SUV soon. I think I'm going to bring in my vehicle and have my wife test drive the most expensive vehicle on the lot. While discussing pricing on said vehicle, I'll certainly mention to my salesman that I admire their integrity and am sure they'll do the right thing with my car so that my wife and I can both enjoy our new toys at Christmas.

You shouldn't have to do that. They should bend over backwards to make it right for you, regardless of whether you're looking for a car for your wife.