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View Full Version : Chiefs Would the Chiefs have won this game with Haley?


Buck
12-18-2011, 02:07 PM
Just want your opinion.

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
No. Palko would have started.

Urc Burry
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
Hell nooooo

BigRichard
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
Nope.

Molitoth
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
Nope.

The players would not have played as hard.
The QB would've been Palko.
The playcalling would be McCluster in between the tackles.

ElGringo
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
No....step one for haley, start Palko, step 2 horrible play calls, step 3 is loss.

petegz28
12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
With Orton? Maybe. The playcalling sure looked to be 180 degrees different from what we've seen since Haley started though

Sutter Cane
12-18-2011, 02:09 PM
Haley probably would have started palko, as he seems to hate putting in any even slightly competent QB

mnchiefsguy
12-18-2011, 02:09 PM
No...Haley would not have played Orton. Palko would have started and we would have lost. The defense would have given up in the third quarter.

Red Beans
12-18-2011, 02:09 PM
We might have had a similar first half, but the team couldn't bounce back with Haley... That GB TD would have sealed it under Haley...

memyselfI
12-18-2011, 02:10 PM
Where is the hell no, f&*k, no, no freakin way no option?

BigMeatballDave
12-18-2011, 02:11 PM
With Orton? Maybe. The playcalling sure looked to be 180 degrees different from what we've seen since Haley started though

What? A ton of shitty play calls in the 1st half. Miur needs to go to a nursing home.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 02:11 PM
With Orton? Maybe. The playcalling sure looked to be 180 degrees different from what we've seen since Haley started though

No it didn't we ran Mcluster up the gut and TJ on the goal line.

The difference was Orton.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:12 PM
No, but mostly because I think the players rallied around Crennel. I don't think Haley would have, honestly, played Palko over Orton like some around here do.

|Zach|
12-18-2011, 02:12 PM
I understand why people would disagree with this but...I don't think this is an indictment of Haley. I think *change* was the catalyst for success for sure.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 02:13 PM
I voted yes under the assumption Haley starts Orton. That was really the only difference in the team.

memyselfI
12-18-2011, 02:15 PM
Two crack smokers here. :D

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 02:15 PM
He would've gone for an onsides kick

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:16 PM
I understand why people would disagree with this but...I don't think this is an indictment of Haley. I think *change* was the catalyst for success for sure.

Yup.

King_Chief_Fan
12-18-2011, 02:17 PM
I voted yes under the assumption Haley starts Orton. That was really the only difference in the team.

same here.......

I voted yes for that reason.

However, he would have started Palko and then no.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 02:18 PM
Its funny how people will point at this game as use it as an absolute as Haley was the only issue.

Orton kept the offense moving. The defense was just like they have been with less time on the field to wear them out.

Orton was the only difference in the team.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:19 PM
same here.......

I voted yes for that reason.

However, he would have started Palko and then no.

I don't understand this assumption. What evidence do we have that that would have been the case?

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:20 PM
I don't understand this assumption. What evidence do we have that that would have been the case?

Maybe the evidence of Palko starting every game Haley was here after Cassel was injured?

King_Chief_Fan
12-18-2011, 02:21 PM
I don't understand this assumption. What evidence do we have that that would have been the case?

assumption only, no evidence....I learned a long time ago, that evidence has no place on Chiefs Planet....you new here?:D

okcchief
12-18-2011, 02:23 PM
I say no. Play calling was better and the team was behind Romeo. Haley's stubborn as may have not started Orton.

Papi
12-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Haley who? In my mind I've erased the abortion that occurred before this game.

Lonewolf Ed
12-18-2011, 02:26 PM
No. Haley would not have run the plays where the tight ends caught deep passes, nor would he have run screens to the fullback. More changes need to be made, but it is clear that Haley was a problem in and of himself.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:26 PM
Maybe the evidence of Palko starting every game Haley was here after Cassel was injured?

Orton is a better QB than Palko or Stanzi. I know that's hard to understand.

JonesCrusher
12-18-2011, 02:27 PM
You know, I'm curious that if that were the dolts entering the 4th qtr with a lead what would have happened. Just curious..................rivers..............vagina.....................norv........................ choke....................troll

memyselfI
12-18-2011, 02:28 PM
Haley who? In my mind I've erased the abortion that occurred before this game.

Good plan. I probably should of but I rather enjoy the fact that his team did the UNTHINKABLE the first game after his ass was sent packing.

Bwana
12-18-2011, 02:28 PM
No chance, NONE, nor would they have won it with broke dick Cassel.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 02:30 PM
Its funny how people will point at this game as use it as an absolute as Haley was the only issue.

Orton kept the offense moving. The defense was just like they have been with less time on the field to wear them out.

Orton was the only difference in the team.

Fully agree. We don't know the answer. Unfortunately.

I thought the biggest emotional boost was the confidence that they had a qb that could move the ball. You could see it by the second or third drive. And the play calling... No idea if that was much better thought processes or the result of a coaching staff that finally trusted their qb.

What we know for an absolute fact is that Matt cassel was a huge part of the problem.

Guru
12-18-2011, 02:30 PM
shit no

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:31 PM
Orton is a better QB than Palko or Stanzi. I know that's hard to understand.

Palko was Haley's guy. I know that's hard to understand.

Palko is to Haley what Cassel is to Pioli.

Buck
12-18-2011, 02:31 PM
You know, I'm curious that if that were the dolts entering the 4th qtr with a lead what would have happened. Just curious..................rivers..............vagina.....................norv........................ choke....................troll

Wow good one, you got me good.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Maybe the evidence of Palko starting every game Haley was here after Cassel was injured?

It's pretty obvious Haley went to a qb switch in chicago. And given that he considered playing stanzi against the jets, that proves that Haley never considered orton an option due to injury.

dirk digler
12-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Definitely no and I am pretty sure the game would have been over in the 1st quarter

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 02:32 PM
True, so true
This thread is a Pioli plant to take the heat off Casshole
BAN HIM!!!!!

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Palko was Haley's guy. I know that's hard to understand.

In case you have forgotten, Haley put Orton in against Chicago (remember that?), but Orton got hurt. I don't see any reason to believe that Orton wouldn't have been back in once healthy again, especially given how badly Palko has played.

But it's fine, feel free to keep blaming Haley.

bricks
12-18-2011, 02:34 PM
I voted no because Haley lost the team. I bet the play calling would've been different.

But you could tell the players respect and love Romeo. The team was playing with more inspired confidence today. That doesn't exist with Haley as the coach.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 02:34 PM
Something I found interesting.

All 3 interim HCs have won at least one game, with two winning their games today.

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:35 PM
In case you have forgotten, Haley put Orton in against Chicago (remember that?), but Orton got hurt. I don't see any reason to believe that Orton wouldn't have been back in once healthy again, especially given how badly Palko has played.

But it's fine, feel free to keep blaming Haley.

Feel free to keep washing the idiots balls.

It can't be more obvious when Palko is immediately inactive when Haley loses control.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:37 PM
Feel free to keep washing the idiots balls.

It can't be more obvious when Palko is immediately inactive when Haley loses control.

So, are you saying that Orton could have started last week? That the Chiefs were exaggerating his injury?

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:37 PM
So, are you saying that Orton could have started last week? That the Chiefs were exaggerating his injury?

I'm saying Palko was obviously the worst QB on the roster and did not "give us the best chance to win."

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm saying Palko was obviously the worst QB on the roster and did not "give us the best chance to win."

You didn't answer my question.

Bowser
12-18-2011, 02:38 PM
Two crack smokers here. :D

The vitriol you feel for Haley is exactly 180 degrees from the unbridled lust you felt for Gannon. It's amusing, but I think your hate for Haley is a just a bit over the top.

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 02:39 PM
JD is just here to take the opposite postion, on everything

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 02:39 PM
I'm saying Palko was obviously the worst QB on the roster and did not "give us the best chance to win."

Or Haley didn't want to start Stanzi against the New York Jets in East Rutherford.

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:39 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Sorry. I like to ignore flawed questions that ignore the big picture.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 02:40 PM
Also jd, do you think starting Stanzi in Chicago, for his first game, would have been the right thing to do?

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:40 PM
JD is just here to take the opposite postion, on everything

That's why I'm the one in the 93% majority...

DaFace
12-18-2011, 02:40 PM
Sorry. I like to ignore flawed questions that ignore the big picture.

Ha...fair enough. Just wanted to make sure I understood your take. I'm not much for pointless arguments around here, so I'll just ignore you in the future.

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:41 PM
Also jd, do you think starting Stanzi in Chicago, for his first game, would have been the right thing to do?

What does it matter who the opponent is?

memyselfI
12-18-2011, 02:41 PM
The vitriol you feel for Haley is exactly 180 degrees from the unbridled lust you felt for Gannon. It's amusing, but I think your hate for Haley is a just a bit over the top.

He was a waste of three years. We knew pretty early on he was not going to be the type of coach this organization wanted and needed. He managed to delay the inevitable for a year but in the end all he amounted to was a big freakin waste of time. We were on the freakin job training for him.

Actually, if you go back to my posts at the time, I was opposed to hiring a rookie in the first place. That is on Pioli.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 02:42 PM
What does it matter who the opponent is?

Because it makes no fucking sense to start a 5th round rookie QB on the road for his start unless you abso fucking lutely have to.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 02:43 PM
He was a waste of three years. We knew pretty early on he was not going to be the type of coach this organization wanted and needed. He managed to delay the inevitable for a year but in the end all he amounted to was a big freakin waste of time.

Actually, if you go back to my posts at the time, I was opposed to hiring a rookie in the first place. That is on Pioli.

You wanted a retread? LMAO

jd1020
12-18-2011, 02:43 PM
Because it makes no ****ing sense to start a 5th round rookie QB on the road for his start unless you abso ****ing lutely have to.

People don't gain experience by sitting on the bench.

notorious
12-18-2011, 02:44 PM
drunkie, King_Chief_Fan, Marcellus, Okie_Apparition, stonedstooge


Are you guys trolling right now?

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 02:47 PM
Haley and Company would still have difficulty getting plays into the QB, lack any coherent gameplan, and probably would not have decided on a quarterback until Sunday morning.

GoHuge
12-18-2011, 03:14 PM
No it didn't we ran Mcluster up the gut and TJ on the goal line.

The difference was Orton.:spock:

Are you ****ing insane or did you watch the game? McCluster only ran the ball 5 times (2 were reverses), caught 2 passes, and was only targeted twice. Anything between the tackles was TJ, Battle, and McClain for 125 yards.

Yes actually having a NFL QB for the first time this year made a big difference, but without Haley fiddle-****ing with the offensive game plan and calling plays whenever he decided he knew best this offense hummed like it hasn't in a long time. That was a combo of Orton and offensive coaches getting to put together a gameplan and executing it. First major change they made.............McCluster is not going to be a feature anything.

Another example of what coaching and scheming can do.....see Leonard Pope and all of those productive screens we haven't seen all year. Hell of job by Orton, but "The difference was Orton" was only part of it.

Willie Lanier
12-18-2011, 03:16 PM
No, but mostly because I think the players rallied around Crennel. I don't think Haley would have, honestly, played Palko over Orton like some around here do.

This

Al Bundy
12-18-2011, 03:17 PM
Which 8 of you fucking idiots think that Palko wouldn't have started this game?

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:17 PM
:spock:

Are you ****ing insane or did you watch the game? McCluster only ran the ball 5 times (2 were reverses), caught 2 passes, and was only targeted twice. Anything between the tackles was TJ, Battle, and McClain for 125 yards.

Yes actually having a NFL QB for the first time this year made a big difference, but without Haley fiddle-****ing with the offensive game plan and calling plays whenever he decided he knew best this offense hummed like it hasn't in a long time. That was a combo of Orton and offensive coaches getting to put together a gameplan and executing it. First major change they made.............McCluster is not going to be a feature anything.

Another example of what coaching and scheming can do.....see Leonard Pope and all of those productive screens we haven't seen all year. Hell of job by Orton, but "The difference was Orton" was only part of it.

I watched the whole game. QB was the difference.

Does 3 FG's inside the 10 yard line sound familiar?

Play calling was just as spotty at times, especially in the 3rd quarter.

I will say it again, the difference was the QB not shitting his pants and throwing down field.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:19 PM
:spock:

Are you ****ing insane or did you watch the game? McCluster only ran the ball 5 times (2 were reverses), caught 2 passes, and was only targeted twice. Anything between the tackles was TJ, Battle, and McClain for 125 yards.

2 of McCluster's 5 runs were the same delay draw we've seen ever since he got here.

Another example of what coaching and scheming can do.....see Leonard Pope and all of those productive screens we haven't seen all year. Hell of job by Orton, but "The difference was Orton" was only part of it.

The first screen to McClain was the SAME screen we ran in the gold zone against Minnesota where Cassel locked in on McCluster and threw it into the dirt.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:19 PM
Which 8 of you ****ing idiots think that Palko wouldn't have started this game?

I'm one of the 8...just felt like being a contrarian...

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:20 PM
If Romeo had the whole game to focus on the defense, KC may of had a shut out

suzzer99
12-18-2011, 03:21 PM
No way - they'd have come out as flat as they have since the SD game.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Which 8 of you ****ing idiots think that Palko wouldn't have started this game?

How do you know? Again, Haley made the official qb change in Chicago. You can disagree with how quickly he should have thought orton could learn a new offense or heal an injured finger. But it's ridiculous to suggest that just because he didn't play orton a week after injuring his finger that he was committed to palko over orton.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Nope.

The players would not have played as hard.
The QB would've been Palko.
The playcalling would be McCluster in between the tackles.
yep

other than inside the 10 yard line, the playcalling was much better today.

eliminate the stupid mistakes and keep the offense spread out inside the redzone and we might be decent.

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:23 PM
The what if game only works one way on CP

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:23 PM
drunkie, King_Chief_Fan, Marcellus, Okie_Apparition, stonedstooge


Are you guys trolling right now?

Nope I just think the issues went much farther than Haley.

Lets not act like we didn't win some big games with Haley as coach.

The defense was huge today and they have been playing like that for some time though a bit inconsistent at times due to offensive ineptitude.

The offense moved the ball because Orton was under center. Not Palko or Cassel.

Did Haley's spat with Pioli effect his judgment on QB? Yea. It hurt the team too.

Do we play like this with Orton under center and Haley as coach? I see no reason to believe otherwise.

People are blinded by the win but if you look at what happened there was nothing ground breaking aside from better QB play.

What else happened that was so different?

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:24 PM
I know some of the 9 voters are just fucking around, but there are a few that overdosed on stupid pills today.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:25 PM
yep

other than inside the 10 yard line, the playcalling was much better today.

eliminate the stupid mistakes and keep the offense spread out inside the redzone and we might be decent.

Did you not see DMC up the gut 2x the first drive of the 3rd quarter?

The team played hard all season, anybody who thinks otherwise is just cherry picking to make themselves feel better.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Nope I just think the issues went much farther than Haley.

Lets not act like we didn't win some big games with Haley as coach.

The defense was huge today and they have been playing like that for some time though a bit inconsistent at times due to offensive ineptitude.

The offense moved the ball because Orton was under center. Not Palko or Cassel.

Did Haley's spat with Pioli effect his judgment on QB? Yea. It hurt the team too.

Do we play like this with Orton under center and Haley as coach? I see no reason to believe otherwise.

People are blinded by the win but if you look at what happened there was nothing ground breaking aside from better QB play.

What else happened that was so different?

The playcalling was better.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Nope I just think the issues went much farther than Haley.

Lets not act like we didn't win some big games with Haley as coach.

The defense was huge today and they have been playing like that for some time though a bit inconsistent at times due to offensive ineptitude.

The offense moved the ball because Orton was under center. Not Palko or Cassel.

Did Haley's spat with Pioli effect his judgment on QB? Yea. It hurt the team too.

Do we play like this with Orton under center and Haley as coach? I see no reason to believe otherwise.

People are blinded by the win but if you look at what happened there was nothing ground breaking aside from better QB play.

What else happened that was so different?


Although we disagree, at least you gave us an explanation.


Remove yourself from my previous post.

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:26 PM
Did STs fuck up this much under Haley
shit can be played 50 different ways

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:27 PM
He was a waste of three years. We knew pretty early on he was not going to be the type of coach this organization wanted and needed. He managed to delay the inevitable for a year but in the end all he amounted to was a big freakin waste of time. We were on the freakin job training for him.

Actually, if you go back to my posts at the time, I was opposed to hiring a rookie in the first place. That is on Pioli.

In the end, Im thinking this was the right firing to make. But I do NOT think thats a knock on Haley. Unfortunately, this was a wake up call to pioli to grow the fuck up. We also run the danger of pioli getting his ego back if we win the next few.

Clearly, both acted like children. But whats clear is that the most enormous handicap of this team was cassel. We can only speculate that Haley was holding the team back too. Frankly, I think orton re-energized this team coupled with the "new coach effect" where players respond well to a new coach. Teams that fire coaches in midseason often see that spark and hangover effect.

I do think Haley would have had this team ready to play. No idea if he play calls like this. No idea if we have a play call clusterfuck (remember, we did NOT have issues getting plays in on time under palko).

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:27 PM
The playcalling was better.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Give me a specific play that wasn't effected by the QB actually throwing the ball down field rather than shitting himself.

What 2 screen passes?

stonedstooge
12-18-2011, 03:28 PM
If Haley would have started Orton in this game, I think the outcome would have been the same.

JCharles1981
12-18-2011, 03:28 PM
Based on what I saw today, I would say no. Tyler Palko would have started and thrown at least 3 interceptions. Thomas Jones and Dexter McCluster would have each averaged less than 3 yards per carry on running plays, and Dwayne Bowe might have been lucky to catch a couple of decent throws from Palko.

The defense would have been exhausted from continuously heading back out onto the field following several 3 and outs from the offense. Therefore, they'd be so worn out by the 4th quarter they would practically be walking across the field during pass plays from the Packers.

Romeo Crennel does have previous head coaching experience, so maybe he'll get the job at the start of next season.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:28 PM
Did STs **** up this much under Haley
shit can be played 50 different ways

Oh, all those penalties were illusions. Haley's gone, the team is fixed!

SenselessChiefsFan
12-18-2011, 03:29 PM
I don't think there is any way that he would have won this game. He would have been as stubborn and childish as he always is.

He would have started Palko. The Chiefs would have lost their composure.

The Chiefs would have gotten blown out.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Give me a specific play that wasn't effected by the QB actually throwing the ball down field rather than shitting himself.

What 2 screen passes?

I was being sarcastic.

Orton completed 3 more screen today than Cassel has all season (if you don't count the one he through to Eric Weddle).

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:30 PM
Did you not see DMC up the gut 2x the first drive of the 3rd quarter?

The team played hard all season, anybody who thinks otherwise is just cherry picking to make themselves feel better.
i had family over so i probably didn't see those 2 plays.

That said '2 plays' doesn't change the entire offensive flow of the game. It was different today.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a douchebag drinker who is trying to defend Haley.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 03:30 PM
He would have started Palko. The Chiefs would have lost their composure.



Why in the world are you saying that?

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:30 PM
Stanzi would have prevented the ST fuckups
slaps forehead

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:30 PM
If Haley would have started Orton in this game, I think the outcome would have been the same.

Haley wouldn't have started Orton. No way.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:31 PM
That said '2 plays' doesn't change the entire offensive flow of the game. It was different today.

Having a composed QB makes all the difference...

Fritz88
12-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Haley would have started Palko.

Everyone here seems to forget how Haley chose Palko over Orton in Chicago.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Why in the world are you saying that?
because that's what has happened the last few weeks...

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:32 PM
I was being sarcastic.

Orton completed 3 more screen today than Cassel has all season (if you don't count the one he through to Eric Weddle).

Gotcha. I am amazed people think the play calling was so different.

I saw the same offense just executed better by the QB.

Pope had 2 of the biggest plays in the game, Pope.

That doesn't sound too different except we had a QB who noticed he was open.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:32 PM
Give me a specific play that wasn't effected by the QB actually throwing the ball down field rather than shitting himself.

What 2 screen passes?

Fully agree.

I know screen passes sound simple. But watching orton execute a simple screen and a playaction... Night and day. The presence of mind to run a quick count on some wr screens. The patience to wait for a screen to develop then delivering a touch pass. The effort to actually sell a play fake rather than just nonchalantly tucking the ball into your hip.

These are a few small but very impactful ways orton helped make simple plays far more effective.

Rams Fan
12-18-2011, 03:32 PM
because that's what has happened the last few weeks...

The Steelers game was his first week as a Chief, right?

The 2nd game, vs the Bears, Orton played and then injured his finger.

Last week, Orton did not play due to injury, correct?

stonedstooge
12-18-2011, 03:33 PM
Haley wouldn't have started Orton. No way.

I voted that Haley would have won this game and was asked why. Just giving my reason. Haley cut his own throat when he didn't start Orton 2 games ago in my opinion. But I don't know if Orton wasn't ready or it was just an evil ploy by Haley to get himself fired. Too many ifs, ands and buts to know for sure

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:33 PM
Has BUck been Baned yet

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Haley would have started Palko.

Everyone here seems to forget how Haley chose Palko over Orton in Chicago.

And everyone seems to forget that Haley made an official qb change in the first half of that same game.

Why is it so hard to believe that he could have been just very conservative about rushing him not a new offense and rushing him back from a finger injury.

Caseyguyrr
12-18-2011, 03:36 PM
it would have been a classic Haley blowout

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:36 PM
it would have been a classic Haley blowout

I agree x 11ty.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:36 PM
Having a composed QB makes all the difference...
yes, it does.

still doesn't change the fact that the playcalling was better today. We didn't start every possession with a DMC draw play. We mixed up the types of running plays and the types of passing plays.

you combine the better playcalling along with Orton's ability to find his 2nd or 3rd options and boom ... offense looks a ton better.

as soon as Cassel is healthy, he should be cut or traded for a pack of Oreos.
Sign Orton to a short term deal if we can
Draft a QB if we can
develop Stanzi
cut Palko

still want a real OC ... Muir ain't it.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:37 PM
I voted that Haley would have won this game and was asked why. Just giving my reason. Haley cut his own throat when he didn't start Orton 2 games ago in my opinion. But I don't know if Orton wasn't ready or it was just an evil ploy by Haley to get himself fired. Too many ifs, ands and buts to know for sure

Oh I agree.

I just don't see any objective way to think that Haley wouldn't have started Palko. It's almost like he didn't want to win.

But this whole series of events started 2+ years ago when we traded for Hassle so it's all moot anyway.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Gotcha. I am amazed people think the play calling was so different.

I saw the same offense just executed better by the QB.

Pope had 2 of the biggest plays in the game, Pope.

That doesn't sound too different except we had a QB who noticed he was open.



How many times did Orton have to wait for the play? flap his arms at the side line? rush up to the line without time to read the defense or make an adustment? call a time out because he got the play too late?

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:38 PM
The team's attitude was completely different today.


They played inspired on BOTH sides of the ball.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:38 PM
Hell I voted yes but its just too simple to say Crennel is the head coach and we are fine.

I don't buy it. The issues start at the top and Pioli has already started reversing direction to shift blame.

I would love to be wrong about this but Haley wasn't the biggest issue. I will gladly eat crow if I am wrong.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:38 PM
still doesn't change the fact that the playcalling was better today. We didn't start every possession with a DMC draw play. We mixed up the types of running plays and the types of passing plays.

Dude, the playcalling was the same. Almost exactly.

The difference was Orton finding his 2nd or even 3rd read (Pope and Becht had more big catches than holding penalties) and the offensive line executing for a guy that isn't a complete was of space.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:39 PM
How many times did Orton have to wait for the play? flap his arms at the side line? rush up to the line without time to read the defense or make an adustment? call a time out because he got the play too late?NONE

The entire offense was better today

Haley sucked

stonedstooge
12-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Oh I agree.

I just don't see any objective way to think that Haley wouldn't have started Palko. It's almost like he didn't want to win.

But this whole series of events started 2+ years ago when we traded for Hassle so it's all moot anyway.

He may have started Palko. He appeared to be wanting out of coaching the Chiefs and forced Poili's hand. If he would have started Palko, there is no doubt in my mind they would have been beaten badly.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:39 PM
How many times did Orton have to wait for the play? flap his arms at the side line? rush up to the line without time to read the defense or make an adustment? call a time out because he got the play too late?

How many times did Palko have to do that?

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Dude, the playcalling was the same. Almost exactly.

The difference was Orton finding his 2nd or even 3rd read (Pope and Becht had more big catches than holding penalties) and the offensive line executing for a guy that isn't a complete was of space.
I disagree completely

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:40 PM
How many times did Orton have to wait for the play? flap his arms at the side line? rush up to the line without time to read the defense or make an adustment? call a time out because he got the play too late?

How many times did palko? The problem was fixed. And much of that could also have been due to cassels complete inability to call his own plays.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:40 PM
How many times did Orton have to wait for the play? flap his arms at the side line? rush up to the line without time to read the defense or make an adustment? call a time out because he got the play too late?

How much of that was Cassel being a retard? By all accounts they called plays the exact same way today.

Muir from the booth to Zorn on the sideline to the QB on the field.

Do you know of anything different?

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
I see htismaqe's point. Orton's execution allowed the offense to call other plays that would have been snuffed out like they always did with Haley, Cassel, Palko, etc.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
How many times did Palko have to do that?


Twice during the Jets game, although Palko didn't have the arm flapping thing going like Cassell.

And for that matter, how many times did you see Haley try a pass play on 1st down? The plays are the same, no one has installed a new offense, the predictability didn't seem to be what it was with Haley.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Oh I agree.

I just don't see any objective way to think that Haley wouldn't have started Palko. It's almost like he didn't want to win.

But this whole series of events started 2+ years ago when we traded for Hassle so it's all moot anyway.

I guess I just don't understand that. Haley clearly started Palko over Stanzi, but he only started Palko over Orton once (ignoring the first week when Orton had barely stepped off the plane), and Haley even put Orton in halfway through that one. I don't see any evidence that Haley wouldn't have stuck with Orton had the injury not occurred.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
How many times did Palko have to do that?
Palko didn't have to deal with it as much because right after Cassel got hurt and the Chiefs has so much problems getting the plays in on time they change they way they didn't things.

Muir moved down to the sideline where Haley could just lean over and tell him to shut up.

Haley stopped pretending that he wasn't calling the plays.

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Laz has sex with pregnant midwives

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:41 PM
How much of that was Cassel being a retard? By all accounts they called plays the exact same way today.

Muir from the booth to Zorn on the sideline to the QB on the field.

Do you know of anything different?

I agree.


The excecution of the plays by Orton was MUCH better.

SenselessChiefsFan
12-18-2011, 03:42 PM
How many times did Palko have to do that?

It has been well noted the communication issues the Chiefs had under Haley. But, leave it up to you to blame it all on Cassel.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I see htismaqe's point. Orton's execution allowed the offense to call other plays that would have been snuffed out like they always did with Haley, Cassel, Palko, etc.

Give one play call that was so different.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I disagree completely

Feel free.

It doesn't change the facts.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:42 PM
NONE

The entire offense was better today

Haley sucked

The play calling was the same. Our qb was miles better at executing.

If anything, we were more conservative. A ton of screen plays. And yes, I think if you called the same plays for cassel, he would have ****ed them up. Lots of plays where the primary read was open but orton coolly looked for a 2nd and 3rd option. No way cassel gets the defense tO bite on the play fake the way orton did. Unlikely he executes the screen as well.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:43 PM
How much of that was Cassel being a retard? By all accounts they called plays the exact same way today.

Muir from the booth to Zorn on the sideline to the QB on the field.

Do you know of anything different?

Before is was Muir to Haley to Zorn to the QB


the playcalling WASN'T the same today .... at all

Okie_Apparition
12-18-2011, 03:43 PM
Senseless has sex with Cassel's breathright strip

SenselessChiefsFan
12-18-2011, 03:43 PM
How much of that was Cassel being a retard? By all accounts they called plays the exact same way today.

Muir from the booth to Zorn on the sideline to the QB on the field.

Do you know of anything different?

Haley put Muir on the sidelines because they were having issues. Crennel let Muir go back upstairs because he knew he wouldn't be meddling in Muir's playcalling.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:43 PM
Feel free.

It doesn't change my opinion.

FYP

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:44 PM
It has been well noted the communication issues the Chiefs had under Haley. But, leave it up to you to blame it all on Cassel.

Orton was miles better than 2010 cassel when there were no communication issues.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:44 PM
It has been well noted the communication issues the Chiefs had under Haley. But, leave it up to you to blame it all on Cassel.

The only common denominator is Cassel.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:44 PM
How much of that was Cassel being a retard? By all accounts they called plays the exact same way today.

Muir from the booth to Zorn on the sideline to the QB on the field.

Do you know of anything different?


Same way? First, Muir hasn't been in the booth in weeks. Second, by 'all accounts' Haley had his fingers all over the offensive play calling.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:44 PM
I guess I just don't understand that. Haley clearly started Palko over Stanzi, but he only started Palko over Orton once (ignoring the first week when Orton had barely stepped off the plane), and Haley even put Orton in halfway through that one. I don't see any evidence that Haley wouldn't have stuck with Orton had the injury not occurred.

Well, I am a firm believer that Orton was "set up" by Haley, so...

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:45 PM
The only common denominator is Cassel.

Yup.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Orton was miles better than 2010 cassel when there were no communication issues.

But, but, but...

SenselessChiefsFan
12-18-2011, 03:45 PM
I guess I just don't understand that. Haley clearly started Palko over Stanzi, but he only started Palko over Orton once (ignoring the first week when Orton had barely stepped off the plane), and Haley even put Orton in halfway through that one. I don't see any evidence that Haley wouldn't have stuck with Orton had the injury not occurred.

Yeah, too bad the offensive genius put him in on a flea flicker instead of just letting him play in a normal offense.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Same way? First, Muir hasn't been in the booth in weeks. Second, by 'all accounts' Haley had his fingers all over the offensive play calling.

How about last year when Weis was calling the plays and Cassel STILL had games under 5ypa?

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Give one play call that was so different.


Long throw on 2nd and short.

stonedstooge
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Well, I am a firm believer that Orton was "set up" by Haley, so...

Set up? Not sure what you mean

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Yeah, too bad the offensive genius put him in on a flea flicker instead of just letting him play in a normal offense.

Now this I agree with...

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Give one play call that was so different.

None, I am agreeing with you.


An offense can look completely different when it is actually executed properly.


Orton passed downfield consistantly, that opened up the run a little bit and that really helped the screen passes.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Long throw on 2nd and short.

They aren't ever in 2nd and short with Cassel.

DaFace
12-18-2011, 03:47 PM
Well, I am a firm believer that Orton was "set up" by Haley, so...

How so? Like, Haley called a play wanting to get Orton hurt or something?

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:47 PM
Same way? First, Muir hasn't been in the booth in weeks. Second, by 'all accounts' Haley had his fingers all over the offensive play calling.

1st off Muir was only on the sideline for a few weeks. Secondly give me an example of a play call had Haley's fingerprints all over it then give me an example of why today was different,

What was different other than the QB completing passes?

Not a fucking thing that's what.

And for the record I am not pissed about Haley being fired but I think it's a a glossing over of bigger issues.

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:48 PM
They aren't ever in 2nd and short with Cassel.

2nd or 3rd and 9 are short for Cassel.

Mr. Laz
12-18-2011, 03:49 PM
How so? Like, Haley called a play wanting to get Orton hurt or something?
http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/g2/d/17947-1/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:49 PM
Long throw on 2nd and short.

And who was throwing the ball? You think Haley was calling for 5 yard passes on 3rd and 9?

And just to further destroy your line of thinking, prior to being hurt, Cassel was 3rd in the league on 3rd down conversions when passing.

So explain that to me?

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Plain and simple. Getting the plays is this year has been a mess. That's all on Haley.

But last year, we had a terrific offensive coordinator, a rb that forced defenses to fall completely asleep on our passing game, no communication issues. Even when we weren't having these issues, orton completely outplayed cassel.

Cassel was the biggest problem.
Cassel was the second biggest problem.
If Haley was overly loyal to cassel, he was the second biggest problem
Haley was a problem but a distant third.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:50 PM
How so? Like, Haley called a play wanting to get Orton hurt or something?

Yeah, that's exactly what I think happened.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:51 PM
How about last year when Weis was calling the plays and Cassel STILL had games under 5ypa?



Cassel sucks. Your point?


Do you honestly believe is Haley had spend all week putting together one of his Herm-ball game plans of Run Jones up the middle, Run McCluster up the middle, Short Pass, then punt, punctuated by gadget play dumbassery, interefering with the play calling process, that the Chiefs would have won today?

stonedstooge
12-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that's exactly what I think happened.

Man that's stretching things a bit

DaFace
12-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Yeah, that's exactly what I think happened.

Huh. I'm not much of the :tinfoil: type, so I'll just have to let you have that one.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:52 PM
Long throw on 2nd and short.

Which based on cassels accuracy would have set up 3rd and long the majority of the time. You can't call plays your qb is incapable of executing.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:52 PM
They aren't ever in 2nd and short with Cassel.

LMAO. Yeah, but if they had been.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:52 PM
Cassel sucks. Your point?


Do you honestly believe is Haley had spend all week putting together one of his Herm-ball game plans of Run Jones up the middle, Run McCluster up the middle, Short Pass, then punt, punctuated by gadget play dumbassery, interefering with the play calling process, that the Chiefs would have won today?

We didn't do a damn thing different other than throw the ball to open receivers.

Have you not seen all the gifs of wide open guys earlier this year where Cassel just shits himself?

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Cassel sucks. Your point?


Do you honestly believe is Haley had spend all week putting together one of his Herm-ball game plans of Run Jones up the middle, Run McCluster up the middle, Short Pass, then punt, punctuated by gadget play dumbassery, interefering with the play calling process, that the Chiefs would have won today?

Of course not, but that's because Haley WANTED to fail. That's why he was sticking with Palko.

Haley had to be fired because he was losing games on purpose for all intents and purposes.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Which based on cassels accuracy would have set up 3rd and long the majority of the time. You can't call plays your qb is incapable of executing.


Sure you can. Have you not watched a Chiefs game in the last two years?

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Cassel sucks. Your point?


Do you honestly believe is Haley had spend all week putting together one of his Herm-ball game plans of Run Jones up the middle, Run McCluster up the middle, Short Pass, then punt, punctuated by gadget play dumbassery, interefering with the play calling process, that the Chiefs would have won today?

Haley ran a very wide open offense in az. You're assuming that he doesn't open up a more aggressive game plan with a better qb.

Hell, only play Haley ran with orton, what was it? Deep pass.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Huh. I'm not much of the :tinfoil: type, so I'll just have to let you have that one.

If Haley was able to design a play to intentionally get Orton to hit his hand on a helmet and dislocate his finger then he is an absolute genius.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Sure you can. Have you not watched a Chiefs game in the last two years?

Yes I have. Whenever cassel was given a deep throw he would either sail it 20 yards over the receivers head or check down too quickly.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 03:55 PM
Of course not, but that's because Haley WANTED to fail. That's why he was sticking with Palko.

Haley had to be fired because he was losing games on purpose for all intents and purposes.

I do agree with this. Totally. He was done and wanted out.

Not saying it was right, it pisses me off but that tells you how bad Pioli is to work for if you ask me.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:56 PM
How so? Like, Haley called a play wanting to get Orton hurt or something?

I think he probably means that he wanted palko to clearly play his way out of his position rather than blindly hand it to orton. That seems pretty clear to me, given that they pulled palko even though we were still very much in a close game.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:57 PM
Of course not, but that's because Haley WANTED to fail. That's why he was sticking with Palko.

Haley had to be fired because he was losing games on purpose for all intents and purposes.


Ok, so what if Haley really, really wanted to win, and started Orton...hell, give him a mini-Ditka, would he have been capable of putting together a game plan, executing it, and winning the game?

One other thought. In addition to the play calling, the Chiefs did not appear to have* the jitters and problems with illegal motion, players lined up out of position, etc that the offense has had early in recent games.

*I missed the first 10 minutes, so tell me if I'm wrong. I know the defense had problems with substitutions.

notorious
12-18-2011, 03:58 PM
Haley had this team playing like shit. Their mindset was horrible. We weren't physical, and we had no identity.


That alone would have led to GB packing our shit.

Give Crennel credit. This team just physically dominated the World Champs, and it should have been a blowout.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Of course not, but that's because Haley WANTED to fail. That's why he was sticking with Palko.

Haley had to be fired because he was losing games on purpose for all intents and purposes.

The problem is, we are generalizing that Haley preferred palko over orton. He obviously preferred palko over stanzi but for very different reasons. It was made clear that Haley was more than happy to start orton.

trndobrd
12-18-2011, 03:59 PM
Haley ran a very wide open offense in az. You're assuming that he doesn't open up a more aggressive game plan with a better qb.

Hell, only play Haley ran with orton, what was it? Deep pass.


It was a gadget play. I'm not entirely sure Palko was done for the day, as much as Haley was trying to get the defense to bite on a gimmick.

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 04:01 PM
Haley had this team playing like shit. Their mindset was horrible. We weren't physical, and we had no identity.

We completely shut down the Pittsburgh Steelers in a game EXACTLY like this one. The only difference was at QB...

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 04:02 PM
It was a gadget play. I'm not entirely sure Palko was done for the day, as much as Haley was trying to get the defense to bite on a gimmick.

How does bringing in another QB to run a flea flicker fool the other team?

If anything they should have expected pass. That's logic fail right there.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 04:02 PM
We completely shut down the Pittsburgh Steelers in a game EXACTLY like this one. The only difference was at QB...

And SD and Denver and.........

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 04:02 PM
Haley had this team playing like shit. Their mindset was horrible. We weren't physical, and we had no identity.


That alone would have led to GB packing our shit.

Give Crennel credit. This team just physically dominated the World Champs, and it should have been a blowout.

We physically dominated a lot of teams.

The question is, was the defense more physical because of motivation, or was it because we dominated TOP and kept them fresh? Was our offense more motivated because of crennel, or was that the swagger knowing they finally had a qb that could make plays?

Under cassel, our offense almost NEVER got off to a quick start like this. That went a really long way for us.

chiefzilla1501
12-18-2011, 04:04 PM
It was a gadget play. I'm not entirely sure Palko was done for the day, as much as Haley was trying to get the defense to bite on a gimmick.

That's ridiculous.

Haley gave palko the hook when he bit rock bottom. That is not a coincidence. I think that's a huge stretch to say orton was in there for one play only.

Marcellus
12-18-2011, 04:06 PM
If the only change had been Crennel it would all make sense.

Thing is we also changed QB's and the offense played better so we won.

To me it looked like the QB was the only difference.

We had dumbass penalties out the ass, was the because of great coaching.

12 guys on the field what 4 times?

htismaqe
12-18-2011, 04:11 PM
If the only change had been Crennel it would all make sense.

Thing is we also changed QB's and the offense played better so we won.

To me it looked like the QB was the only difference.

We had dumbass penalties out the ass, was the because of great coaching.

12 guys on the field what 4 times?

We had special teams penalties on nearly every return.

We had 12 guys on the field AT LEAST 3 times. Once, we called a timeout because of it and came back with TEN guys on the field. And that was ROMEO'S unit, the defense.

The only way you didn't see the different today is if you didn't want to see it.

Dave Lane
12-18-2011, 04:26 PM
If Palko starts no If Orton starts I think its the same game.