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petegz28
12-19-2011, 10:54 AM
The difference in playcalling yesterday compared to the entire season if not the last 3 seasons was just fucking mind bottling! Not 1,2,3, but 4 screens in one game? TE's being hit over the middle for more than 3 yards? No Dex up the middle for -2?

Ok, so, was this really because of Orton who had practiced really all of one week? Or was this because Haley was not there to chain down Muir on the playcalling?

Don't get me wrong, I am not here to sell Muir as a good OC. But JFC...we were a totally different team all the way around? How does this happen in less than a week? How does a team that couldn't get a first down to save their life suddenly go to punting onl twice the entire game with 0 turnovers and 0 sacks?

Obviously Orton brings a lot to that situation but it was the non-passing plays that stuck out the most. Particularly the lack of running Mighty Mouse 1.5 up the middle constantly for not.

I think Haley was a damper on this offense. When Muir and Zorn can take the same roster of backups and retirees with a QB that has been practing for all of a few days and turnout the performance we saw against The Pack then yu have to say that either Orton was football God's gift to the Chiefs or Muir and Zorn were finally able to call an offense that would actually produce.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 10:58 AM
RAC himself said they didn't do anything much different.

They've run screens for the better part of 2.5 years, Cassel just can't execute them.

Dr. Facebook Fever
12-19-2011, 11:00 AM
I know my mind is bottled.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 11:00 AM
RAC himself said they didn't do anything much different.

They've run screens for the better part of 2.5 years, Cassel just can't execute them.

I guess so. But even when Cassel did it seemed the blocking was never there.

Just 3 points of note that makes me think Haley was the wet rag on the offense..

1. Palko inactive
2. Dex used sparingly and not as a power runner
3. The increased use of McClain

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 11:01 AM
Playcalling was better except for one series where they went ultraconservative.

10 different players caught the ball.

Fire Me Boy!
12-19-2011, 11:01 AM
The difference in playcalling yesterday compared to the entire season if not the last 3 seasons was just ****ing mind bottling! Not 1,2,3, but 4 screens in one game? TE's being hit over the middle for more than 3 yards? No Dex up the middle for -2?


Genuinely trying to be helpful here, because I know I'd hate to run around saying the wrong thing... but I'm pretty sure you mean "mind boggling," not mind "bottling." I'm fairly certain no one's trying to bottle your brain.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 11:02 AM
Genuinely trying to be helpful here, because I know I'd hate to run around saying the wrong thing... but I'm pretty sure you mean "mind boggling," not mind "bottling." I'm fairly certain no one's trying to bottle your brain.

No, I meant "mind bottling". It's from a Will Ferrel movie you obviously haven't seen.

Fire Me Boy!
12-19-2011, 11:03 AM
No, I meant "mind bottling". It's from a Will Ferrel movie you obviously haven't seen.

Ah, that would explain it. I thought you were going all "for all intensive purposes" on us.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:04 AM
I guess so. But even when Cassel did it seemed the blocking was never there.

Just 3 points of note that makes me think Haley was the wet rag on the offense..

1. Palko inactive
2. Dex used sparingly and not as a power runner
3. The increased use of McClain

1. Legitimate.
2. Dex ran 2 delay draws straight up the middle, same as every other week.
3. The Chiefs have run those types of screens all year. They ran that one in the gold zone against Minnesota and Cassel never even looked to McClain's side of the field. He ended up grounding the ball.

Marcellus
12-19-2011, 11:04 AM
What is mind bottling is that people think there was a huge difference in play calling. That's whats mind bottling I tell you.

That and mind bottling is kind of mind bottling.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 11:04 AM
Ah, that would explain it. I thought you were going all "for all intensive purposes" on us.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qWkNPrXkvRA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:05 AM
10 different players caught the ball.

1 different player threw the ball.

ReynardMuldrake
12-19-2011, 11:05 AM
I blame Cassel.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 11:06 AM
1. Legitimate.
2. Dex ran 2 delay draws straight up the middle, same as every other week.
3. The Chiefs have run those types of screens all year. They ran that one in the gold zone against Minnesota and Cassel never even looked to McClain's side of the field. He ended up grounding the ball.

Yeah Dex rana couple draws but we saw him used far less in the running game than we have been. And I don't think we have ran dick for screens. I know we have tried a few here and there but nothing like we saw yesterday.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:07 AM
And I don't think we have ran dick for screens. I know we have tried a few here and there but nothing like we saw yesterday.

Because they don't work with Cassel under center. He can't sell them because they require an extreme amount of patience under pressure.

FAX
12-19-2011, 11:09 AM
You must un-cap your mind.

FAX

petegz28
12-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Because they don't work with Cassel under center. He can't sell them because they require an extreme amount of patience under pressure.

I can't argue with this

Fire Me Boy!
12-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Yeah Dex rana couple draws but we saw him used far less in the running game than we have been. And I don't think we have ran dick for screens. I know we have tried a few here and there but nothing like we saw yesterday.

Not sure about how many we've tried, but I remember yesterday thinking, "Holy shit! We just ran a successful screen for the first time in forever!"

Shox
12-19-2011, 11:09 AM
It was not play calling, it was quarterbacking and execution. We ran the same plays we just got to run a lot more of them because we did not have all the no gain and negative playes. It makes a huge difference when you block and complete passes.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:10 AM
I can't argue with this

;)

boogblaster
12-19-2011, 11:14 AM
1 different player threw the ball.

this ......

Dicky McElephant
12-19-2011, 11:18 AM
Yesterday is the way that we should have been using McClain all year.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:23 AM
Yesterday is the way that we should have been using McClain all year.

They've tried, believe me.

Molitoth
12-19-2011, 11:23 AM
One thing I noticed was that they were executing the quick bubble screen wonderfully.

I don't know if that was Muir's dumbass calling that play into the huddle or if Orton was doing a quick read audible, but I'd guess it was more Orton. He makes Cassel look like a pee-wee.

NY CHIEF
12-19-2011, 11:24 AM
Playcalling was better except for one series where they went ultraconservative.

10 different players caught the ball.

I didnt know we had 10 players that could catch the ball LMAO

trndobrd
12-19-2011, 11:25 AM
The same plays are in the playbook. That hasn't changed, but the pattern that the plays were called yesterday was different and the play calling wasn't entirely predictable. It was almost as if there was an overarching plan and purpose in their play calling. Using the OL in space, screens to slow down the rush, etc. It almost made me think someone had watched some film.

Obviously having a legitimate NFL quarterback made many plays more successful, and even those that were not made the Packers react (thinking of the incomplete to Baldwin on the three).

Yesterday, when they had succes the stuck with it. For instance, they kept running the screen until GB made an adjustment. Previously, when something had been successful Jones immedately went back in for another dose of Herm-ball. GB never did have an answer for the outside running game.

Now just to find a solution to the goal line offense (cough..Bowe in the corner...cough).

ReynardMuldrake
12-19-2011, 11:26 AM
One thing I noticed was that they were executing the quick bubble screen wonderfully.

I don't know if that was Muir's dumbass calling that play into the huddle or if Orton was doing a quick read audible, but I'd guess it was more Orton. He makes Cassel look like a pee-wee.

Yeah, I got giddy seeing Orton call an audible yesterday. I'd forgotten what those looked like!

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 11:27 AM
Playcalling was different. Seemed like Jones and McClain were used much more. I didn't notice Dex in the backfield all that much attempting to pick up blitzes.

DanT
12-19-2011, 11:28 AM
It seemed tp me that the play calling was only a little bit different, but that Orton was a lot more poised in the pocket than our other QBs have been. If you settle into the pocket and look downfield, you can find opportunities with our receivers. Orton played a gutsy game yesterday, it seemed to me, just by staying in the pocket and picking his shots.

DaFace
12-19-2011, 11:29 AM
Playcalling looked about the same to me. The difference is that we had a QB who could execute.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 11:29 AM
The same plays are in the playbook. That hasn't changed, but the pattern that the plays were called yesterday was different and the play calling wasn't entirely predictable. It was almost as if there was an overarching plan and purpose in their play calling. Using the OL in space, screens to slow down the rush, etc. It almost made me think someone had watched some film.

Obviously having a legitimate NFL quarterback made many plays more successful, and even those that were not made the Packers react (thinking of the incomplete to Baldwin on the three).

Yesterday, when they had succes the stuck with it. For instance, they kept running the screen until GB made an adjustment. Previously, when something had been successful Jones immedately went back in for another dose of Herm-ball. GB never did have an answer for the outside running game.

Now just to find a solution to the goal line offense (cough..Bowe in the corner...cough).

Not losing yards on 1st down can change the entire flow of a game...

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:32 AM
10 different players caught the ball.This is due to the QB, not play selection.

Red zone play selection was awful.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:37 AM
Mind bottling LMAO

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 11:39 AM
This is due to the QB, not play selection.

Red zone play selection was awful.

I thought McClain and Breaston both could have had TDs with better execution. The play calls were okay on those two plays.

Otherwise, not much you can do when timing is off with your new QB and WR, and the OL is getting bent over.

notorious
12-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Very little difference, just a lot better execution starting at the QB position.

I noticed that we passed on first down more.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2011, 11:43 AM
Playcalling was different. Seemed like Jones and McClain were used much more. I didn't notice Dex in the backfield all that much attempting to pick up blitzes.
yep, it was different ... there was more unpredictability to the playcalling

normally i can pretty much tell what play is coming next and yesterday i couldn't. That first screen actually caught me by surprise. I'm not sure the offense ever did that under Haley.

other than the redzone offense, the playcalling was pretty decent.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:43 AM
No, I meant "mind bottling". It's from a Will Ferrel movie you obviously haven't seen.

Ah, I see. Couldn't get thru that one. Stupid movie.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Very little difference, just a lot better execution starting at the QB position.

I noticed that we passed on first down more.bullshit

we didn't start ever drive with a drawplay, for one.

QB has nothing to do with that shit

McClain got the carries up the middle instead of DMC

QB has nothing to do with that

timing of the screen plays called has nothing to do with the QB

Pope being open by 15 yards ... twice!! was because of the unpredictability of the offense not the QB.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:46 AM
I thought McClain and Breaston both could have had TDs with better execution. The play calls were okay on those two plays.

Otherwise, not much you can do when timing is off with your new QB and WR, and the OL is getting bent over.

McClain just flat dropped his. The pass to Breasting was a shade behind him.

Muir needs to hang it up, though.

notorious
12-19-2011, 11:49 AM
bullshit

we didn't start ever drive with a drawplay, for one.

QB has nothing to do with that shit

McClain got the carries up the middle instead of DMC

QB has nothing to do with that

timing of the screen plays called has nothing to do with the QB

Pope being open by 15 yards ... twice!! was because of the unpredictability of the offense not the QB.

LOL, Okay there fireplug.

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 11:50 AM
McClain just flat dropped his. The pass to Breasting was a shade behind him.

Muir needs to hang it up, though.

He has 2 more weeks to prove it was Haley holding him back.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 11:50 AM
bullshit

we didn't start ever drive with a drawplay, for one.

QB has nothing to do with that shit

McClain got the carries up the middle instead of DMC
QB has nothing to do with that

timing of the screen plays called has nothing to do with the QB

Pope being open by 15 yards ... twice!! was because of the unpredictability of the offense not the QB.

It took 13 games for the staff to finally utilize McClain like he needed to be. The guy has good hands and can get a few yards up the gut...

I was miffed on the Haley firing during the season, but the way the O operated yetserday made me realize what a hinderance he was.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:51 AM
bullshit

we didn't start ever drive with a drawplay, for one.

QB has nothing to do with that shit

McClain got the carries up the middle instead of DMC

QB has nothing to do with that

timing of the screen plays called has nothing to do with the QB

Pope being open by 15 yards ... twice!! was because of the unpredictability of the offense not the QB.

Per usual, you prove yourself to be a fucking moron.

If you cannot tell the biggest difference yesterday was QB play, then there is no hope for you to ever learn anything about this game. Ever.

DaKCMan AP
12-19-2011, 11:51 AM
RAC himself said they didn't do anything much different.

They've run screens for the better part of 2.5 years, Cassel just can't execute them.

Yep. I didn't see much difference in play calling. It was just executed properly.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 11:55 AM
I'm going out on a limb and say that the play calling was improved due to Grandpa having free reign, but also the fact that our QB actually hung in the pocket and ran through his progressions...

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 11:56 AM
They tweaked the offense, no question.

Orton showed everyone just how pathetic Cassel was under center.

notorious
12-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Orton showed everyone just how pathetic Cassel was under center.

People that don't realize this overdosed on their stupid pills.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 12:00 PM
People that don't realize this overdosed on their stupid pills.

Mainlining black-tar retard is more likely...

Demonpenz
12-19-2011, 12:01 PM
I almost pissed my pants on that fake by orton to make charles woodson bite then he hit the next guy within the numbers. IDK what was up with trying back shoulder throws to our big recievers. Throw the damn thing high. Good game and fun non the less.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:02 PM
bullshit

we didn't start ever drive with a drawplay, for one.

QB has nothing to do with that shit

McClain got the carries up the middle instead of DMC

QB has nothing to do with that

timing of the screen plays called has nothing to do with the QB

Pope being open by 15 yards ... twice!! was because of the unpredictability of the offense not the QB.

ROFL

trndobrd
12-19-2011, 12:03 PM
Per usual, you prove yourself to be a ****ing moron.

If you cannot tell the biggest difference yesterday was QB play, then there is no hope for you to ever learn anything about this game. Ever.


So you think with Haley on the sideline the Chiefs would have won?

Bump
12-19-2011, 12:03 PM
http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/Bump4/195921275v3_460x460_Front.jpg

Demonpenz
12-19-2011, 12:04 PM
Pope being open was because Orton is able to make reads and have time to find him. Cassel only looks one direction the throws to that person wildly or if it is a special occation would throw completely across his body in traffic.

Bump
12-19-2011, 12:04 PM
No, I meant "mind bottling". It's from a Will Ferrel movie you obviously haven't seen.

Blades of Glory?

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:04 PM
So you think with Haley on the sideline the Chiefs would have won?

Of course not...he would have started Palko.

What does that have to do with anything?

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 12:05 PM
So you think with Haley on the sideline the Chiefs would have won?

It makes one wonder if he would have opened up the play calling with ol' Orton...

But he insisted on trotting Palko out there for four games, so he blew that opportunity. Thus, we'll never know...

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:05 PM
http://www.corychase.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/blinders.jpg

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 12:05 PM
Pope being open was because Orton is able to make reads and have time to find him. Cassel only looks one direction the throws to that person wildly or if it is a special occation would throw completely across his body in traffic.

The utter truth!

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 12:09 PM
I'm pretty sure McClain had more carries and throws to him in this game than he has all season. They definitely used Dex differently than Haley did.

Plus, how many times did they target Bowe?

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm pretty sure McClain had more carries and throws to him in this game than he has all season. They definitely used Dex differently than Haley did.

Plus, how many times did they target Bowe?

Again, they ran the SAME screen in the Minnesota game. Cassel never even looked to that side of the field...

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
Again, they ran the SAME screen in the Minnesota game. Cassel never even looked to that side of the field...

Stop harping about 1 screen pass. You've written about it 100x already in the last 24 hours. We get it. That 1 pass doesn't necessarily mean that the playcalling was the even remotely similar.

Mr. Laz
12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
Well at least we have our QB now ... i mean since the only thing that matters is the Quarterback then Orton > Rodgers since we won.

To da Ship!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Laz
12-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Stop harping about 1 screen pass. You've written about it 100x already in the last 24 hours. We get it. That 1 pass doesn't necessarily mean that the playcalling was the even remotely similar.
He'll never stop ... at least we know now that he never really left. He's way too psycho about the subject to not of been jacking off to every drafturbator post this whole time.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 12:21 PM
So you think with Haley on the sideline the Chiefs would have won?

No clue.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Stop harping about 1 screen pass. You've written about it 100x already in the last 24 hours. We get it. That 1 pass doesn't necessarily mean that the playcalling was the even remotely similar.

It's called an example. I get it that you want me to stop mentioning it, sometimes the truth hurts.

It doesn't change the fact that the playcalling WAS similar, even according to Romeo Crennel himself.

But I'm sure he's making shit up too, right?

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 12:22 PM
Well at least we have our QB now ... i mean since the only thing that matters is the Quarterback then Orton > Rodgers since we won.

To da Ship!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO now you're just trolling

O.city
12-19-2011, 12:22 PM
In ortons time in Denver and Chicago, he has never had the weapons that we will have next year.

However,


He is a stopgap, that is all. This doesn't change anything. It just shows that with a solid qb we could beat alot of teams. Solid qbs don't neccesarily win in the PS. We need a good to great qb.

Maybe Stanzi can be that guy. It would be great if he is. We will definately find out what the Front office thinks about him come draft time.

Another thing this shows is that Matt Cassel needs to go. Show me one game where he looked and performed as well as Orton did yesterday.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 12:23 PM
He'll never stop ... at least we know now that he never really left. He's way too psycho about the subject to not of been jacking off to every drafturbator post this whole time.

ROFL

Utterly clueless.

I left because of a disagreement with one of the drafturbators.

ROFL

SNR
12-19-2011, 01:25 PM
Is Laz this biggest Cassel troll we have left on this board?

notorious
12-19-2011, 01:27 PM
Is Laz this biggest Cassel troll we have left on this board?

Come on.


There are no Cassel supporters left. Natural selection has taken care of that.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 01:44 PM
Is Laz this biggest Cassel troll we have left on this board?

I'm not sure he even likes Cassel.

His hate for Haley obfuscates basically any other opinion he has.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-19-2011, 01:45 PM
2 words...Kyle Orton.

Dave Lane
12-19-2011, 01:46 PM
RAC himself said they didn't do anything much different.

They've run screens for the better part of 2.5 years, Cassel just can't execute them.

This is exactly the problem Orton > Cassel and trying to showcase himself for a big payday = Big difference in execution.

Dave Lane
12-19-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm not sure he even likes Cassel.

His hate for Haley obfuscates basically any other opinion he has.

And unions. Don't forget unions.

Dicky McElephant
12-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Laz is just a douche.

Dave Lane
12-19-2011, 01:49 PM
Stop harping about 1 screen pass. You've written about it 100x already in the last 24 hours. We get it. That 1 pass doesn't necessarily mean that the playcalling was the even remotely similar.

Playcalling when it works > playcalling when it doesn't work. Dumb it down enough for you?

whoman69
12-19-2011, 01:52 PM
I haven't watched the game yet since it wasn't carried here and I was out of town. It all just seems so mind bottling though.

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Playcalling when it works > playcalling when it doesn't work. Dumb it down enough for you?

How many passes have been thrown to Becht all year? McClain, Becht and Cooper all had season high receptions yesterday. Otron was a big difference, but the playcalling spread the ball around more than it has all year. There weren't that many big shots downfield.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 01:59 PM
How many passes have been thrown to Becht all year? McClain, Becht and Cooper all had season high receptions yesterday. Otron was a big difference, but the playcalling spread the ball around more than it has all year. There weren't that many big shots downfield.

The only way the playcalling spreads the ball around is if he's hitting the #1 read EVERY time.

Even the announcers on TV recognized that ORTON was spreading the ball around.

trndobrd
12-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Of course not...he would have started Palko.

What does that have to do with anything?


Highly doubtful that he would have started Palko. Crenell would have lost this game starting Cassel or Palko. Haley would have lost the game starting Orton.

Why does it matter? Because certain Cassel haters are incapable of understanding the level of suckage that was this season, want to pin yesterday's win entirely on the change a QB, and overlook the importance of having a game plan, a scheme, and decent play calling.

edit: Fact is that there has been a sufficient amount of Suck at 1 Arrowhead Dr to justify cutting Cassel, firing Haley AND firing Pioli.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:01 PM
I haven't watched the game yet since it wasn't carried here and I was out of town. It all just seems so mind bottling though.

http://i44.tinypic.com/23lefkx.jpg

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:01 PM
Highly doubtful that he would have started Palko. Crenell would have lost this game starting Cassel or Palko. Haley would have lost the game starting Orton.

Why does it matter? Because certain Cassel haters are incapable of understanding the level of suckage that was this season, want to pin yesterday's win entirely on the change a QB, and overlook the importance of having a game plan, a scheme, and decent play calling.

The game plan, for the past 2.5 years, has been built around Matt Cassel.

There is absolutely no way you can look at this game objectively and not understand that the change at QB makes EVERYTHING else possible.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:03 PM
The game plan, for the past 2.5 years, has been built around Matt Cassel.

There is absolutely no way you can look at this game objectively and not understand that the change at QB makes EVERYTHING else possible.

It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

notorious
12-19-2011, 02:04 PM
It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

Why did you wait until post #83 to say that?


That is exactly right.

jjjayb
12-19-2011, 02:05 PM
And I don't think we have ran dick for screens. I know we have tried a few here and there but nothing like we saw yesterday.

You don't remember the screen we ran to lose the game against San Diego? The one where Cassel threw it to the guy on the other team? That's why we didn't run more screens. Because Cassel is inept.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Why did you wait until post #83 to say that?


That is exactly right.

I had to break for lunch.

Dave Lane
12-19-2011, 02:07 PM
It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

Maybe. But the difference is not play calling. Its EXECUTION of the play calling. Every play that "works" is by definition a good play call. If you have Cassel and he can't execute the play that is called then this is the weak link.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:08 PM
It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

Good point.

jjjayb
12-19-2011, 02:08 PM
How many passes have been thrown to Becht all year? McClain, Becht and Cooper all had season high receptions yesterday. Otron was a big difference, but the playcalling spread the ball around more than it has all year. There weren't that many big shots downfield.

That has less to do with playcalling than with Orton actually progressing through reads. Cassel wouldn't spread the ball around because he'd look to his first receiver and if he was covered he'd shit his pants.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:10 PM
Maybe. But the difference is not play calling. Its EXECUTION of the play calling. Every play that "works" is by definition a good play call. If you have Cassel and he can't execute the play that is called then this is the weak link.


So you're saying the offense wasn't a wee bit different yesterday? Running reverses, multiple screens, McClain up the gut, McDuster to the outside? To say that there wasn't at least some tiny change in philosophy is obtuse...

Both QB & play calling were altered yeasterday when comapred with what we've seen this year...

co-evolutionary forces Dave...

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:11 PM
That has less to do with playcalling than with Orton actually progressing through reads. Cassel wouldn't spread the ball around because he'd look to his first receiver and if he was covered he'd shit his pants.

This is right to a degree. No 100% mind you...

notorious
12-19-2011, 02:12 PM
I had to break for lunch.

Brain food FTW!

petegz28
12-19-2011, 02:12 PM
A lot of what we did yesterday was due to having a QB. Having said that the playcalling was still a lot different, imo. The absence of the Dex for -2 up the gut at least once a series stands out the most.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:14 PM
So you're saying the offense wasn't a wee bit different yesterday? Running reverses, multiple screens, McClain up the gut, McDuster to the outside? To say that there wasn't at least some tiny change in philosophy is obtuse...

They've run ALL of those plays at one point or another during this season. The difference is that they didn't work...

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:14 PM
Brain food FTW!

http://i44.tinypic.com/2s1ur0y.jpg

notorious
12-19-2011, 02:15 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/2s1ur0y.jpg

No thanks, I guess I will have to struggle through life without that cerebral boost.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:15 PM
They've run ALL of those plays at one point or another during this season. The difference is that they didn't work...

I'll agree, but part of it was also allowing the right personell to participate in said plays. We've run a reverse with Breaston this year? I'll bet money we ran McClain up the middle more yesterday that we have all year combined, and the same could be said with running McCluster to the outside...

Dayze
12-19-2011, 02:16 PM
It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:16 PM
A lot of what we did yesterday was due to having a QB. Having said that the playcalling was still a lot different, imo. The absence of the Dex for -2 up the gut at least once a series stands out the most.

Our last drive of the 1st half started with a draw to McCluster for 1 yard.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 02:18 PM
Our last drive of the 1st half started with a draw to McCluster for 1 yard.

A draw is not the power slam we have been trying with him all season. I am not talking about a draw. Get rid of the draw for this discussion. He is designed to run the draw. He is not designed to power it up the middle like we have seen them attempt to do time and time and time again, except yesterday.

trndobrd
12-19-2011, 02:19 PM
The game plan, for the past 2.5 years, has been built around Matt Cassel.

There is absolutely no way you can look at this game objectively and not understand that the change at QB makes EVERYTHING else possible.



That statement is devoid of logic and is utter nonsense. A 'game plan' is the plan put together for a particular game. If the offense had been "built around Matt Cassel" one might expect that it would include a heavy dose of plays he can execute. The offense for the last 2.5 years has not been built around Matt Cassel, it's been the offense Haley has wanted to run without a quarterback capable of running it. Same for the running game based on pounding Jones up the middle with an undersized line that is more suited to lateral movement. That's the same reason Palko's mobility wasn't used and Haley tried to shoehorn him into the role of pocket passer.

Had Haley still been in at HC the Chiefs starting Palko, he would have run the same look and the same pattern: Jones in between the tackles on first down. Battle between the tackles or McCluster a draw on second down. A short pass to Bowe or Breston for 7 yards followed by a punt. If a screen or pass worked, there would be no follow up, just Jones in between the tackles on first down.

Also, can anyone explain how the improvement in the running game during the first half is a direct result of the change at QB.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:19 PM
I'll agree, but part of it was also allowing the right personell to participate in said plays. We've run a reverse with Breaston this year? I'll bet money we ran McClain up the middle more yesterday that we have all year combined, and the same could be said with running McCluster to the outside...

McCluster had 1 carry below his season average yesterday. And average 1.5 full yard below his season average.

The offense was crisp yesterday and people have been fooled into seeing something that didn't happen - McCluster looked EXACTLY like he has all season.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:20 PM
Also, can anyone explain how the improvement in the running game during the first half is a direct result of the change at QB.

The defense has to respect the passing game for the first time in forever. Mike McCarthy even said so.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:21 PM
A draw is not the power slam we have been trying with him all season. I am not talking about a draw. Get rid of the draw for this discussion. He is designed to run the draw. He is not designed to power it up the middle like we have seen them attempt to do time and time and time again, except yesterday.

A delayed handoff with fake is a draw.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:23 PM
McCluster had 1 carry below his season average yesterday. And average 1.5 full yard below his season average.

The offense was crisp yesterday and people have been fooled into seeing something that didn't happen - McCluster looked EXACTLY like he has all season.

I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying they ran him outside more than they have all year. That's all I'm saying. I'm not talking about his stats, becasue while you may have pointed out he played no differently, and maybe worse than his averages, he was effective as a greater part of a more effective offense. His individual play wasn't any better, but his role was better, his useage was timed better...

RINGLEADER
12-19-2011, 02:24 PM
Part of it was because we were facing an average defense.

Part of it was because the Packers were selling out against the run and Orton made them pay.

Part of it was because Orton was rarely pressured and when he was he took it like a man.

Part of it was because the offense controlled TOP and the defense weren't out there every 5 minutes.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 02:24 PM
It seems we've come to a chicken or the egg style debate here...

Could we not say that the QB and the play calling are co-evolutionary forces, each playing off one another, the confluence of the two resulting in the postive outcome we're debating today?

Possibly. I know what I saw though.

I saw a QB who could read a D.
Who looked confident in the pocket.
Who went through his progressions quickly.
Who has a quicker release.
WHO LOOKED DOWNFIELD AND HIT OPEN RECEIVERS.

Red Beans
12-19-2011, 02:25 PM
Possibly. I know what I saw though.

I saw a QB who could read a D.
Who looked confident in the pocket.
Who went through his progressions quickly.
Who has a quicker release.
WHO LOOKED DOWNFIELD AND HIT OPEN RECEIVERS.

I agree. He looked like the best QB we've had under center in the last several seasons.

htismaqe
12-19-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying they ran him outside more than they have all year. That's all I'm saying. I'm not talking about his stats, becasue while you may have pointed out he played no differently, and maybe worse than his averages, he was effective as a greater part of a more effective offense. His individual play wasn't any better, but his role was better, his useage was timed better...

Except that they didn't. He had 2 middle runs, 2 offtackle runs (1 left, 1 right) and one toss play (I think it was a toss right?), all for a grand total of 2.78 yards per carry. In the running game, he wasn't any different than usual.

In the screen game, he absolutely was more effective and it was 100% because of Orton selling the action. Running a screen means allowing pass rushers to come to the QB in order to sell it - Cassel can't do it without panic. I've seen it up close and in person.

Dave Lane
12-19-2011, 02:28 PM
There is a lot of obtuseness in this thread.

DaWolf
12-19-2011, 02:59 PM
1) The QB play was competent
2) The D we played is not very good when they don't cause turnovers

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 03:13 PM
1) The QB play was competent
2) The D we played is not very good when they don't cause turnovers

More or less. However, they've looked bad on O vs shittier Ds

trndobrd
12-19-2011, 03:44 PM
The defense has to respect the passing game for the first time in forever. Mike McCarthy even said so.

Link?

Hog Farmer
12-19-2011, 03:51 PM
Playcalling looked about the same to me. The difference is that we had a QB who could execute.

Orton shows to be 10 x better than Cassel. And Orton sucks. Well actually he doesn't suck now that he's a Chief.

ReynardMuldrake
12-19-2011, 04:27 PM
Link?

I heard McCarthy called Orton a "damned good" quarterback.

DaKCMan AP
12-19-2011, 04:47 PM
A draw is not the power slam we have been trying with him all season. I am not talking about a draw. Get rid of the draw for this discussion. He is designed to run the draw. He is not designed to power it up the middle like we have seen them attempt to do time and time and time again, except yesterday.

Do you just make this stuff up?

You mean the draw like these? During our previous 4 games?

Den @ KC
2nd quarter
1-10-KC 43 (2:13) (Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster left guard to KC 45 for 2 yards (55-D.Williams).

KC @ NE
1st quarter
3-7-KC 23 (14:24) (Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster right end to KC 29 for 6 yards (74-K.Love).
3rd quarter
1-10-NE 43 (5:28) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster up the middle to NE 41 for 2 yards (98-G.Warren).

Pit @ KC
3rd quarter
2-1-KC 43 (2:02) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster up the middle to KC 45 for 2 yards (99-B.Keisel).
4th quarter
1-10-PIT 30 (8:51) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster right end to PIT 30 for no gain (93-J.Worilds).

KC @ Chi
3rd quarter
3-4-CHI 12 (8:24) (Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster left tackle to CHI 5 for 7 yards (20-C.Steltz).
3-10-CHI 10 (7:02) (Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster left guard to CHI 3 for 7 yards (55-L.Briggs).
3-12-KC 22 (5:21) (Shotgun) 22-D.McCluster right end to KC 25 for 3 yards (90-J.Peppers).

Chiefaholic
12-19-2011, 05:06 PM
I don't credit Muir for playcalling, the credit goes to a QB who checks down and actually puts the damn ball in the vicinity for the WR to catch it. In no way, shape, or form is Kyle Orton a franchise QB, but he's leaps and bounds better than Cassel or Palco. Next season we still need to draft a QB high in the draft if it's optional, sign Orton to a 2-3 year deal, and groom the two youngsters to lead this franchise for years to come.

Count Alex's Losses
12-19-2011, 05:08 PM
I honestly think most of it was just Green Bay's defense.

They are that bad.

I would not expect the line to give Orton that much time the next two weeks. Especially in Denver.

Extra Point
12-19-2011, 05:14 PM
Yeah, I got giddy seeing Orton call an audible yesterday. I'd forgotten what those looked like!

Glad you brought that up!

How many times did Neckbeard call an audible?

At their 1-3 yard line, why the Hell didn't we run on all downs, into the A or B gap, with Battle? We can't pass in the red zone; there's not enough yardage, to do so.

Extra Point
12-19-2011, 05:18 PM
I don't credit Muir for playcalling, the credit goes to a QB who checks down and actually puts the damn ball in the vicinity for the WR to catch it. In no way, shape, or form is Kyle Orton a franchise QB, but he's leaps and bounds better than Cassel or Palco. Next season we still need to draft a QB high in the draft if it's optional, sign Orton to a 2-3 year deal, and groom the two youngsters to lead this franchise for years to come.

Zone reads is something that Orton can do, that Cassel can't.

Cassel can't think into that; Orton can.

Orton ~ Gannon (I don't have a double squiggly key. Sorry)

AirForceChief
12-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Great win and all, but this is from Grantland (pointing out how atrocious our play selection was in the Red Zone). Conclusion: Chiefs won in spite of their offensive play calls.

"Thank You for Not Coaching

For this week's most confounding coaching decisions, we turned to our followers on Twitter, who alerted us to a variety of different blunders. While there are a few common threads we'll ignore (John Fox being ultra-conservative, Tom Coughlin challenging out of sheer desperation), there are still plenty of situations to break down, thanks to the usual hodgepodge of curious game-calling choices. And we'll start with the Packers-Chiefs tilt, where @JoeConte pointed out that Romeo Crennel repeatedly bungled his short-yardage decisions.

On the opening drive, the Chiefs had two chances from the one-yard line and decided to throw passes with Kyle Orton both times. With a 0-0 game against the best offense in the league, they chose to kick a field goal. Sure, we know that the Packers ended up scoring just 14 points, but you can't dance with the champ! A 3-0 margin with 54 minutes to go is essentially never going to hold up.

Before we go any further, let's note that the math here is very simple. The average team will score on these carries 56 percent of the time, so your expected outcome by scoring is (7 points * .56) = 3.92 points. You can't score 3.92 points by kicking, so you're essentially giving up a full point by kicking. The Packers have also allowed teams to convert in 75 percent of power runs, the third-worst rate in the league. So our 56 percent estimate is conservative. You also get the benefit of backing the Green Bay offense up inside their 1-yard line as opposed to giving them the result of a kickoff, which is an average of about 22 yards. Based on the average number of points a team scores with a drive that starts from the 1-yard line as opposed to the 22-yard line, you're adding about another full point of value. By kicking instead of going for it, in even an average situation, you're basically throwing two points in the garbage. When you're playing an offensive juggernaut and it's early in the first quarter, well, you simply can't throw points away.

It would be one thing if Crennel just had no faith in his team's short-yardage capabilities, but he changed his mind on Kansas City's first drive of the second quarter. Again, the Chiefs failed on second-and-1 and ended up facing a fourth-and-inches with 3:28 left. They were up 6-0; again, you can't assume that a nine-point lead is going to hold up against a dominant offense. This time, for some reason, Crennel chose to go for it. It was the correct decision, but what was different about this situation as opposed to the first one? The Chiefs were promptly stuffed when they ran a simple handoff up the middle.

That would all have been weird enough, but Crennel got to face a third decision in this same vein! With a 9-7 lead early in the fourth quarter, the Chiefs were faced with a fourth-and-goal from the Green Bay 2-yard line. It's harder to convert from the 2-yard line, but not by much the conversion rate falls from 55.2 percent to 48.6 percent. That's still an expected total of 3.4 points, so it's better than a field goal, and you still get the superior follow-up situation of pinning a team extremely deep in their own territory (something that a dominant Chiefs pass rush might have appreciated). You're giving up 1.4 points by kicking. This decision was more defensible because it pushed the lead outside of one field goal, but there was 11:28 left in the game when Crennel chose to kick as opposed to going for it. Color commentator Daryl Johnston chimed in to say that it was a good decision because the Chiefs had been stuffed on the previous drive, which is one of the dumbest things you'll hear a commentator say all year. Stories will be written today about how the Chiefs won under the leadership of Romeo Crennel, but don't buy it. They won in spite of him."

TEX
12-19-2011, 05:43 PM
Play calling was different / better for sure but still only 1 TD...

TEX
12-19-2011, 05:46 PM
I don't credit Muir for playcalling, the credit goes to a QB who checks down and actually puts the damn ball in the vicinity for the WR to catch it. In no way, shape, or form is Kyle Orton a franchise QB, but he's leaps and bounds better than Cassel or Palco. Next season we still need to draft a QB high in the draft if it's optional, sign Orton to a 2-3 year deal, and groom the two youngsters to lead this franchise for years to come.

This.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 05:53 PM
Play calling was different / better for sure but still only 1 TD...

The line could not block for shit near the EZ.

Play selection there was not good, either.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-19-2011, 06:01 PM
I honestly think most of it was just Green Bay's defense.

They are that bad.

I would not expect the line to give Orton that much time the next two weeks. Especially in Denver.

Clay Mathews was invisible.

BigMeatballDave
12-19-2011, 06:03 PM
I honestly think most of it was just Green Bay's defense.

They are that bad.

I would not expect the line to give Orton that much time the next two weeks. Especially in Denver.

Certainly. Everyone knows GBs D isn't very good.

Still though, the difference between Kyle and Matt is night and day.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Certainly. Everyone knows GBs D isn't very good.

Still though, the difference between Kyle and Matt is night and day.

Loved the look on Orton's face after Woodson bit on his pump fake and he dropped the ball into the bucket to Bowe. Was like "Gotcha".

Extra Point
12-19-2011, 06:20 PM
Loved the look on Orton's face after Woodson bit on his pump fake and he dropped the ball into the bucket to Bowe. Was like "Gotcha".

Same against Bailey?

Chiefnj2
12-19-2011, 06:33 PM
Great win and all, but this is from Grantland (pointing out how atrocious our play selection was in the Red Zone). Conclusion: Chiefs won in spite of their offensive play calls.

"Thank You for Not Coaching


On the opening drive, the Chiefs had two chances from the one-yard line and decided to throw passes with Kyle Orton both times. With a 0-0 game against the best offense in the league, they chose to kick a field goal. Sure, we know that the Packers ended up scoring just 14 points, but you can't dance with the champ! A 3-0 margin with 54 minutes to go is essentially never going to hold up.

Before we go any further, let's note that the math here is very simple. The average team will score on these carries 56 percent of the time, so your expected outcome by scoring is (7 points * .56) = 3.92 points. You can't score 3.92 points by kicking, so you're essentially giving up a full point by kicking. The Packers have also allowed teams to convert in 75 percent of power runs, the third-worst rate in the league. So our 56 percent estimate is conservative. You also get the benefit of backing the Green Bay offense up inside their 1-yard line as opposed to giving them the result of a kickoff, which is an average of about 22 yards. Based on the average number of points a team scores with a drive that starts from the 1-yard line as opposed to the 22-yard line, you're adding about another full point of value. By kicking instead of going for it, in even an average situation, you're basically throwing two points in the garbage. When you're playing an offensive juggernaut and it's early in the first quarter, well, you simply can't throw points away.

It would be one thing if Crennel just had no faith in his team's short-yardage capabilities, but he changed his mind on Kansas City's first drive of the second quarter. Again, the Chiefs failed on second-and-1 and ended up facing a fourth-and-inches with 3:28 left. They were up 6-0; again, you can't assume that a nine-point lead is going to hold up against a dominant offense. This time, for some reason, Crennel chose to go for it. It was the correct decision, but what was different about this situation as opposed to the first one? The Chiefs were promptly stuffed when they ran a simple handoff up the middle.

That would all have been weird enough, but Crennel got to face a third decision in this same vein! With a 9-7 lead early in the fourth quarter, the Chiefs were faced with a fourth-and-goal from the Green Bay 2-yard line. It's harder to convert from the 2-yard line, but not by much the conversion rate falls from 55.2 percent to 48.6 percent. That's still an expected total of 3.4 points, so it's better than a field goal, and you still get the superior follow-up situation of pinning a team extremely deep in their own territory (something that a dominant Chiefs pass rush might have appreciated). You're giving up 1.4 points by kicking. This decision was more defensible because it pushed the lead outside of one field goal, but there was 11:28 left in the game when Crennel chose to kick as opposed to going for it. Color commentator Daryl Johnston chimed in to say that it was a good decision because the Chiefs had been stuffed on the previous drive, which is one of the dumbest things you'll hear a commentator say all year. Stories will be written today about how the Chiefs won under the leadership of Romeo Crennel, but don't buy it. They won in spite of him."


Dumb analysis. He critiques KC for not running the ball the first series noting that on average 56% of the time teams can run successfully. If he knew anything about KC, he'd know that KC can't move the ball in short yardage. In fact, both of Orton's passes should have been TDs. Breaston was open, but the ball was slightly behind him, and McClain dropped the ball.

Then he notes that on the 2nd drive, they got stuffed on the ground.

The writer only talks about league wide averages, and doesn't take into account KC's atrocious red zone offense this year.

It's complete crap to say KC won in spite of Romeo.

petegz28
12-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Certainly. Everyone knows GBs D isn't very good.

Still though, the difference between Kyle and Matt is night and day.

They lead the league in takeaways and Orton is supposedly an INT prone QB. The fact is Orton outplayed GB and outplayed Rodgers yesterday. I'd take Rodgers 10 out of 10 times but yesterday Orton was the better QB.

MahiMike
12-19-2011, 07:25 PM
I'm glad someone started this thread. I was thinking the same thing. From the opening drive, there were big differences. Different personnel, different plays, quicker play calls, quicker tempo. I was wondering who was calling the plays myself.

Also, the little things were different too. Like the really quick snap count and very quick release of Orton on the WR quick out. That play rarely works but it did almost every time because of how fast they ran it.

Pasta Giant Meatball
12-19-2011, 07:26 PM
I also believe Orton set a career high in completion percentage. Very "Brees-like" :):):):):):):):)

-King-
12-19-2011, 07:32 PM
That quick hitter to Breaston was pretty damn great. Don't remember if it was a hot read or not but man that play was executed perfectly.
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