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O.city
01-13-2012, 02:27 PM
I know we tend to bitch and moan on CP about the Chiefs lack of obtaining one of these.

However, I think we all realize that they aren't exactly growing on trees.

So I though I'd spark up some conversation.

How many legit Franchise quarterbacks are there in the NFL right now?

How do you define a franchise quarterback?

List them. Discuss.

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:28 PM
I'll start.


I think there are 7 or 8 tops.

Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Manning
Manning when healthy
Big Ben
Rivers
Romo.

notorious
01-13-2012, 02:29 PM
Yes Please.

Dayze
01-13-2012, 02:33 PM
How many legit Franchise quarterbacks are there in the NFL right now?

List them. Discuss.

No particular order:
Brees
Brady
Manning E.
Manning P.
Rodgers
Roethlisberger

Debatable IMO:
Vick
Rivers
Stafford
Flacco
Ryan

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2012, 02:35 PM
Brees
Manning Brothers
Rodgers
Big Ben
Jay Cutler
Brady
Tim Praise God!
Rivers
Romo
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
Ponder
Orton
Flacco
Stafford

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 02:37 PM
First, I think you have to reach common ground on the definition of Franchise QB.

What is the difference between Elite and Franchise? Are they the same?

Do you have different talent levels... Elite, Franchise, Better than Average, Mediocre, Journeyman?

ChiefGator
01-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Brees
Manning Brothers
Rodgers
Big Ben
Jay Cutler
Brady
Tim Praise God!
Rivers
Romo
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
Ponder
Orton

Huh?

You can cut your list off after Big Ben, and then sweep Brady in.

Orton? Smith? Palmer?!

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Good call Mile High.

I'll edit the OP.

notorious
01-13-2012, 02:38 PM
True Franchise QBs?

Brees
Brady
P. Manning
Rodgers
Ben RapedbyDonkies

The rest have serious flaws.

Rausch
01-13-2012, 02:39 PM
9

ChiefGator
01-13-2012, 02:39 PM
Brees
Brady
Manning E.
Manning P.
Rodgers
Roethlisberger

Debatable IMO:
Vick
Rivers
Stafford
Flacco
Ryan

I pretty much agree with this list; I'ld rather drop Eli to the bottom of the pile of it (borderline to me... one good year) and put Stafford right next to him. I expect Stafford to actually be a franchise QB though. Based on this year he should be.. just like Eli.

Flacco ain't debatable though; he's not a franchise QB at this point. IMO.

Garcia Bronco
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Huh?

You can cut your list off after Big Ben, and then sweep Brady in.

Orton? Smith? Palmer?!

absolutely. what's your definition of a "franchise QB"?

One that wins?
Longevity?
Number of franchises he's played for?
Salary?

Micjones
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
I'll do you one better...

How many franchise QB's have there been since the mid-80's?

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
For me Stafford is right on the edge.

If the dude could make 2 minor changes, I think he could actually be damn near the top of the list.

Bane
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
As bad as I hate to say it.....No love for Rivers?

ChiefGator
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
9

You are totally wrong. Can't believe the QBs you are putting in your list.

My answer is the right 9.

(Damn you actually answering the question)

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:41 PM
I think the Rivers thing is what have you done for me lately.

Before this year, he would be included.

Rausch
01-13-2012, 02:41 PM
Once Eli wins another one where does he go?

And right now that's where I'd bet my money...

ChiefGator
01-13-2012, 02:42 PM
I think the Rivers thing is what have you done for me lately.

Before this year, he would be included.

Yeah, completely.

Otter
01-13-2012, 02:43 PM
They don't even try, that's the pathetic part. When they had agualy the best qb in the nfl of all time they didn't even attempt to draft anyone to learn under him then proceeded to give up high round draft picks for two 7th rounders that were drafted during the Montana years and don't learn from that lesson to boot.

Theyre pretty much idiots unable to learn from 50 years of mistakes.

Sorry, off topic but when I hear "chiefs" & "qb" in the same sentance....

keg in kc
01-13-2012, 02:44 PM
There's rarely more than a half dozen at any given time, and today is no different.

Detoxing
01-13-2012, 02:46 PM
As bad as I hate to say it.....No love for Rivers?

This.

A Franchise QB is a QB you can build a team around. Rivers is a franchise QB.

BoneKrusher
01-13-2012, 02:47 PM
As bad as I hate to say it.....No love for Rivers?

yeah, i agree.
Rivers is 10 times better than Romo

Bane
01-13-2012, 02:47 PM
I think the Rivers thing is what have you done for me lately.

Before this year, he would be included.

Really? Wow!One season makes or breaks a franchise QB now days.Cool.

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:48 PM
Really? Wow!One season makes or breaks a franchise QB now days.Cool.

Look at my first post. I did include Rivers. I was just saying thats probably why he doesn't get any love.

suds79
01-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Franchise QB - A guy who is capable (or has the potential) of winning a SB in today's NFL: (in other words, scratch off Trent Dilfers out there)

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Big Ben
Stafford
Cam Newton
Rivers
Romo
Ryan

Obviously within that group there are some who are truly elite.

Bane
01-13-2012, 02:50 PM
Look at my first post. I did include Rivers. I was just saying thats probably why he doesn't get any love.

He's a diva,and a cry baby,but in a KC uniform he'd be the best QB here in 30 years.I have to believe we could build around him even with Pisoli running things.(given that Casshole is dead)

Dayze
01-13-2012, 02:50 PM
I'd say, at any given time, 20% of the QBs in the league are considered 'Frachise QBs'; from my perspective anyway.

I think a true Franchise QB is one that is consistently putting your team in position to win playoff games & championships year in an year out; a QB that everyone knows can make opposing teams pay and come from behind; a QB where the entire team and organization goes as the QB goes. A QB with an occasional hiccup year here and there but overall, 'in it' every year.

To me, just becuase a QB is cemented into the position for a long period of time, doesn't make him a Franchise QB. (Cutler, Palmer, Romo, Rivers perhaps)

My $0.02

Rausch
01-13-2012, 02:51 PM
yeah, i agree.
Rivers is 10 times better than Romo

They're both great on a fantasy team...

BigMeatballDave
01-13-2012, 02:52 PM
Rodgers
Manning
Manning
Brees
Stafford
Rapist
Brady
Schuab
Flacco
Romo
Rivers

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Franchise QB - A guy who is capable (or has the potential) of winning a SB in today's NFL: (in other words, scratch off Trent Dilfers out there)

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Big Ben
Stafford
Cam Newton
Rivers
Romo
Ryan

Obviously within that group there are some who are truly elite.

I am intrigued by Cam. Pretty good list tho.

Don't think Matt Ryan is one tho.

BoneKrusher
01-13-2012, 02:53 PM
They're both great on a fantasy team...

right you are. :thumb:

suds79
01-13-2012, 02:54 PM
I am intrigued by Cam. Pretty good list tho.

Don't think Matt Ryan is one tho.

Yeah he was on the fringe for me. In the end, I looked at numbers he puts up, how he plays at home, and he's pretty good.

He just needs to step up in big games.

O.city
01-13-2012, 02:56 PM
I just don't think Matt R. has the clutch gene to quote skip bayless.

WhiteWhale
01-13-2012, 02:58 PM
First, I think you have to reach common ground on the definition of Franchise QB.

What is the difference between Elite and Franchise? Are they the same?

Do you have different talent levels... Elite, Franchise, Better than Average, Mediocre, Journeyman?

To me a franchise QB is an elite QB that you draft/acquire at a young age and is a long term starter at the position for your team.

Micjones
01-13-2012, 02:59 PM
A half-dozen:

Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo

And I'm being kind to Romo.

Count Alex's Wins
01-13-2012, 02:59 PM
Franchise QB - A guy who is capable (or has the potential) of winning a SB in today's NFL: (in other words, scratch off Trent Dilfers out there)

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Big Ben
Stafford
Cam Newton
Rivers
Romo
Ryan

Obviously within that group there are some who are truly elite.

I've taken Ryan off my list.

BigMeatballDave
01-13-2012, 03:00 PM
Brees
Manning Brothers
Rodgers
Big Ben
Jay Cutler
Brady
Tim Praise God!
Rivers
Romo
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
Ponder
Orton
Flacco
StaffordWay too soon to put Te-bow and Ponder on here.

Orton? Smith? LOL

Brock
01-13-2012, 03:00 PM
Matt Ryan needs to raise his level of play in the playoffs the way Eli and a few others do. That's pretty much all he's missing.

Detoxing
01-13-2012, 03:01 PM
I am intrigued by Cam. Pretty good list tho.

Don't think Matt Ryan is one tho.

I agree. But I think he's more deserving of the label than Romo.

suds79
01-13-2012, 03:08 PM
Ah new I'd forget somebody.

Okay swap out Ryan for Cutler on my list. Cutler definitely could be a SB QB.

BoneKrusher
01-13-2012, 03:09 PM
I agree. But I think he's more deserving of the label than Romo.

i agree.

Rausch
01-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Rivers and Romo have been great fantasy QB's but HORRIBLE playoff QB'S.

NO, I wouldn't trade a 2nd for either of them...

Kerberos
01-13-2012, 03:11 PM
First, I think you have to reach common ground on the definition of Franchise QB.

What is the difference between Elite and Franchise? Are they the same?

Do you have different talent levels... Elite, Franchise, Better than Average, Mediocre, Journeyman?

Great post MHM

IMHO the epitome of a "Serviceable Franchise" QB was Trent Green while in KC.

He was a great system QB that we built the Offense around and he was serviceable as a game manager. He was great under pressure but not consistently so the "Elite" status was not there.

A true "Elite Franchise" QB would be your Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and even Aaron Rogers. (Even though we witnessed his backup having great success in that system so it brings up questions of Elite or System that make Rogers what he is?)

BTW this is IMO so if you don't agree GFY. :)

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:12 PM
To me a franchise QB is an elite QB that you draft/acquire at a young age and is a long term starter at the position for your team.

I can see that, but I wouldn't rush out to put guys like Cam, Stafford, Ryan, Romo, etc on there as some have done in previous posts.

My thought is that a franchise QB becomes 'known' as such after several years of consistent production, high level of play and winning. Winning has to be one of the factors at the bottom of the list because winning is so much about the team.

Right now, I'd go with... (in no order and not concerned about injury or age):

Peyton
Eli
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Roethlisberger

The next tier of QBs that are borderline franchise wannabes ...

Rivers
Romo
Cutler
Schaub
Flacco
Ryan
Stafford

Romo, Rivers and Cutler have been floaters - they have tons of talent and consistent production, but they're not really clutch and their teams fail at the end when it matters most. I might bump Rivers up to that next level, but not the others - not right now.

Maybe that's the distinction between an Elite QB and then your generic Franchise QB. Elites have that something special about them that allows them to win consistently, whether the talent is good or bad.

And, no... I'm not saying a franchise QB has to be a SB winner, it's just the way my list shaped up.

Count Alex's Wins
01-13-2012, 03:12 PM
Rivers and Romo have been great fantasy QB's but HORRIBLE playoff QB'S.

NO, I wouldn't trade a 2nd for either of them...

Rivers has been to an AFCC.

He lost to Brady, Brady, Roethlisberger and Sanchez.

Last year was shitty but losing to Brady and Roethlisberger brings no shame.

Detoxing
01-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Maybe that's the distinction between an Elite QB and then your generic Franchise QB. Elites have that something special about them that allows them to win consistently, whether the talent is good or bad.

And, no... I'm not saying a franchise QB has to be a SB winner, it's just the way my list shaped up.

This.

And i think we fans often blend the two together. A lot of people define a Franchise QB as those that are ELITE. But you don't need elite to win a SB, but you do need a franchise guy.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
Rivers has been to an AFCC.

He lost to Brady, Brady, Roethlisberger and Sanchez.

Last year was shitty but losing to Brady and Roethlisberger brings no shame.

And, just imagine what beating both of them in the playoffs can bring... :clap:

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
This.

And i think we fans often blend the two together. A lot of people define a Franchise QB as those that are ELITE. But you don't need elite to win a SB, but you do need a franchise guy.

Exactly.

Rausch
01-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Last year was shitty but losing to ...... brings no shame.

Yes, it does...

Count Alex's Wins
01-13-2012, 03:21 PM
Yes, it does...

When Brady and Manning retire, Rivers and Roethlisberger are going to be the best quarterbacks in the AFC.

I would be shocked if Rivers retires without at least one SB appearance.

Cave Johnson
01-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Cam and Stafford are on the verge.

htismaqe
01-13-2012, 03:30 PM
When Brady and Manning retire, Rivers and Roethlisberger are going to be the best quarterbacks in the AFC.

I would be shocked if Rivers retires without at least one SB appearance.

I'll be shocked if he ever wins an AFC championship game.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:30 PM
When Brady and Manning retire, Rivers and Roethlisberger are going to be the best quarterbacks in the AFC.

I would be shocked if Rivers retires without at least one SB appearance.

That team needs a lot of help in order to be that good to get there again... oh and Norv has to be replaced. Chargers are a team on a slow decline the last 4 seasons at 38-26 overall, they've had 1 good season.

The AFCW as a whole should be much better next year... won't help SD's chances.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:31 PM
Cam and Stafford are on the verge.

If that is true, then you have to put Vick there... and the list of 'franchise QBs' grows to about 15-18. If that's the case... you need a better definition of the term 'franchise'.

I mean is it just a 'statistical' game we're playing? If so, put TT there... Matt Hasselbeck, Andy Dalton.

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 03:35 PM
Garcia had to be joking with the inclusion of Ponder and Alex Smith. If not, then there are 32 Franchise QBs in the NFL... maybe 37.

To me a franchise QB is an elite QB that you draft/acquire at a young age and is a long term starter at the position for your team.

This also had to be typed somewhat in jest...

Chiefnj2
01-13-2012, 03:39 PM
Brady, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Rivers, Eli, Rodgers, Stafford, Brees.

Close: Ryan, Romo

Appear to have "it" in year 1: Dalton and Newton

vailpass
01-13-2012, 03:44 PM
You guys forgetting about Carson Palmer? No way anyone trades away that much for him unless he's a franchise qb.

Detoxing
01-13-2012, 03:44 PM
Brady, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Rivers, Eli, Rodgers, Stafford, Brees.

Close: Ryan, Romo

Appear to have "it" in year 1: Dalton and Newton

Schaub?

Schaub isn't any more of a Franchise QB than Trent Green was.

scho63
01-13-2012, 03:45 PM
Here's how I rank 'em


Team QB My Grade
Arizona Cardinals John Skelton D
Atlanta Falcons Matt Ryan B
Baltimore Ravens Joe Flacco B+
Buffalo Bills Ryan Fitzpatrick C
Carolina Panthers Cam Newton A
Chicago Bears Josh McCown C
Cincinnati Bengals Andy Dalton A
Cleveland Browns Seneca Wallace F
Dallas Cowboys Tony Romo B-
Denver Broncos Tim Praise God! B
Detroit Lions Matthew Stafford A
Green Bay Packers Aaron Rogers A+
Houston Texans Matt Schaub B
Indianapolis Colts Dan Orlovsky D-
Jacksonville Jaguars Blaine GabbertC
Kansas City Chiefs Matt Cassel C+
Miami Dolphins Matt Moore B-
Minnesota Vikings Christian Ponder D
New England Patriots Tom Brady A+
New Orleans Saints Drew Brees A+
New York Giants Eli Manning A-
New York Jets Mark Sanchez C+
Oakland Raiders Carson Palmer C
Philadelphia Eagles Michael Vick C
Pittsburgh Steelers Ben Roethlisberger A
San Diego Chargers Philip Rivers B+
San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith B+
Seattle Seahawks Tarvaris Jackson C
St. Louis Rams Sam Bradford B-
Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman C-
Tennessee Titans Matt Hasselbeck B-
Washington Redskins Rex Grossman C

Chiefnj2
01-13-2012, 03:46 PM
Schaub?

Schaub isn't any more of a Franchise QB than Trent Green was.

I think Green was for the years he was in KC. He was a guy that could consistently win in the regular season and gave them a chance in the postseason. Not his fault the D couldn't keep up its end.

blaise
01-13-2012, 03:46 PM
Brees
Brady
Rodgers

All Seinfeld fans. That's the key.

BigMeatballDave
01-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Schaub?

Schaub isn't any more of a Franchise QB than Trent Green was.

I have Schaub on my list, but you may be right.

BigMeatballDave
01-13-2012, 04:26 PM
You guys forgetting about Carson Palmer? No way anyone trades away that much for him unless he's a franchise qb.

Shitty, thirtysomething QBs aren't franchise QBs.

ILChief
01-13-2012, 04:30 PM
I know we tend to bitch and moan on CP about the Chiefs lack of obtaining one of these.

However, I think we all realize that they aren't exactly growing on trees.

So I though I'd spark up some conversation.

How many legit Franchise quarterbacks are there in the NFL right now?

How do you define a franchise quarterback?

List them. Discuss.

Tier 1:
Rogers
Brady
Peyton manning
Drew breed

Ben is hovering between tier 1 and 2

Tier 2:
Eli
Rivers
Matt Ryan
Jay cutler
Matt stafford
Cam newton


The rest are too early to tell or not relevant

Mile High Mania
01-13-2012, 04:35 PM
Tier 1:
Rogers
Brady
Peyton manning
Drew breed

Ben is hovering between tier 1 and 2

Tier 2:
Eli
Rivers
Matt Ryan
Jay cutler
Matt stafford
Cam newton


The rest are too early to tell or not relevant

I think it's flawed to put Cam Newton in there and not Andy Dalton. What's the difference? Stats? What about wins?

You can't say 'the rest are too early', but then have Cam and not Dalton on the list.

I hesitate on Stafford... he finally played in 16 games, did very well. But, to me... he's right there with Cam and Dalton.

Deberg_1990
01-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Rodgers
Manning
Manning
Brees
Stafford
Rapist
Brady
Schuab
Flacco
Romo

[QUOTE=Micjones;8291776]I'll do you one better...

How many franchise QB's have there been since the mid-80's?


Montana, elway, young, aikman, Marino, Kelly, Favre, Bledsoe, McNabb plus the ones mentioned above from today's game. Did I miss anyone?

Bump
01-13-2012, 04:42 PM
I'll do you one better...

How many franchise QB's have there been since the mid-80's?

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Big Ben
Joe Montana
Brett Favre
Jim Kelly
Boomer Esiason
Phil Sims
Randall Cunningham
Steve Young
Mike Vick
Eli Manning
Troy Aikman
John Elway
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Dan Marino
Aaron Rodgers
Cam Newton (right now, he is the definition of franchise QB)
Andrew Luck
Phillip Rivers


I'm probably missing a shit ton

whoman69
01-13-2012, 05:30 PM
If you're not going to have a franchise QB, of which there are few, than you have to have some other strength no your team, like Baltimore or San Francisco's defense. I think its possible to win the Super Bowl without one if your guy is close. The rules definitely help those teams that have one.

Pasta Giant Meatball
01-13-2012, 05:39 PM
Brees
Manning Brothers
Rodgers
Big Ben
Jay Cutler
Brady
Tim Praise God!
Rivers
Romo
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
Ponder
Orton
Flacco
Stafford

Ohhh my :LOL:

Psyko Tek
01-13-2012, 06:34 PM
brees
rodgers

Brady

questionable
vick before he got paid
romo before he got laid
sanchez he has it made
rivers does not make the grade
manning ,P but he's starting to fade


that is all

milkman
01-14-2012, 09:14 AM
To me separates QBs is what they do when it matters the most.

But I also think that coaching can make a hude difference.

I believe a stronger coach would have helped Peyton Manning get more than 1 SB win.

I believe that Rivers is an elite QB whose career has been held by back bad shitty coach.

I wonder if Mike Smith isn't too conservative, which hold Matt Ryan back, or if Matt Ryan dictates Mike Smith's conservative nature.

These are the guys I consider elite.

Rodgers
Brees
Both Manning's
Roethlisberger

Those are the guys that have proven it.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 09:21 AM
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
P. Manning
Rivers
Roethlisberger
E. Manning

That's it.

There are some that are on the verge of being put in that list but they have to show more. Like Stafford, needs to stay healthy, Ryan, do something in the playoffs, Newton, 1-2 more years of domination.

QBs like Romo and Flacco are filled with too much shit your pants to ever be put in that tier of QB.

Monty
01-14-2012, 09:21 AM
Add Brady to that list and I agree. Ryan needs to grow a pair and he might have a chance.

notorious
01-14-2012, 09:24 AM
Add Brady to that list and I agree. Ryan needs to grow a pair and he might have a chance.

I thought Ryan was going to be the man, but now it looks to me like he just doesn't have what it takes.

kysirsoze
01-14-2012, 09:28 AM
Stanzi

jd1020
01-14-2012, 09:29 AM
I think it's flawed to put Cam Newton in there and not Andy Dalton. What's the difference? Stats? What about wins?

You can't say 'the rest are too early', but then have Cam and not Dalton on the list.

I hesitate on Stafford... he finally played in 16 games, did very well. But, to me... he's right there with Cam and Dalton.

Stafford has been injured through his career but just put up a 5,000 yard season.

Cam Newton broke Peyton's rookie record for passing yards while running for another 700 and 14 TDs. Bringing his total TD:TO to 35:19.

Andy Dalton threw for 1.2 yards less on average than Newton and picked up 1 rushing TD. Bringing his TD:TO total to 21:15.

To put Andy Dalton in the discussion is completely stupid. "But he won games!" He was 1-6 against .500+ competition while putting up nothing close to Stafford/Newton.

beach tribe
01-14-2012, 10:11 AM
As bad as I hate to say it.....No love for Rivers?

Or Stafford?

Dude just threw for 5000 yards, and he's not considered franchise?

Brees
Brady
Manning
Manning
Rivers
Ruthlessraper
Rodgers
Stafford
Newton

notorious
01-14-2012, 10:23 AM
When they win a championship, I will put them in the "franchise" catagory.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 10:26 AM
When they win a championship, I will put them in the "franchise" catagory.

So you think Marino wasn't a franchise QB?

notorious
01-14-2012, 10:28 AM
So you think Marino wasn't a franchise QB?

In the past, yes. Present day, no.


The game was different when Marino played.

milkman
01-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Or Stafford?

Dude just threw for 5000 yards, and he's not considered franchise?

Brees
Brady
Manning
Manning
Rivers
Ruthlessraper
Rodgers
Stafford
Newton

I think a QB has to prove it over the course of time.

Stafford and Newton have shown franchise potential, but it's too early yet to call them franchise QBs.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 10:33 AM
In the past, yes. Present day, no.


The game was different when Marino played.

They didn't have championships when Marino played?

notorious
01-14-2012, 10:34 AM
They didn't have championships when Marino played?

:facepalm:

jd1020
01-14-2012, 10:37 AM
:facepalm:

Not sure why you are face palming. You said your criteria for being a franchise QB was winning a championship.

Tribal Warfare
01-14-2012, 10:38 AM
In the past, yes. Present day, no.


The game was different when Marino played.

In any era Marino would've been a franchise QB

notorious
01-14-2012, 10:44 AM
In any era Marino would've been a franchise QB

Marino didn't win a championship because the rest of the team was more important back then than it is now. Rules were more even between defense and offense.

Marino, in todays rules, would completely dominate, and probably have multiple championships.


Put almost any of the marginal QB's listed in this thread back in the era Marino played and they would be 50/50 TD/INT QBs.


Hence, Marino would be a franchise QB back then, but if he played now and didn't have a championship, I not consider him franchise material.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 10:46 AM
Marino didn't win a championship because the rest of the team was more important back then than it is now. Rules were more even between defense and offense.

Marino, in todays rules, would completely dominate, and probably have multiple championships.


Put almost any of the marginal QB's listed in this thread back in the era Marino played and they would be 50/50 TD/INT QBs.


Hence, Marino would be a franchise QB back then, but if he played now and didn't have a championship, I not consider him franchise material.

So then you think he would be a franchise QB in todays game...

If the rest of the team didn't matter in todays game then Rivers would have been in the playoffs last year.

Pioli Zombie
01-14-2012, 10:55 AM
It astounds me how Matt Cassel is not on this list. He carried the Chiefs on his back to the playoffs. Then when he was injured they didn't make it. This proves he is unquestionably the MVP of the National Football League.

notorious
01-14-2012, 11:01 AM
So then you think he would be a franchise QB in todays game...

If the rest of the team didn't matter in todays game then Rivers would have been in the playoffs last year.

You seem to deal in absolutes.

Where in the world did I say that the rest of the team didn't matter in today's game?


???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

jd1020
01-14-2012, 11:09 AM
You seem to deal in absolutes.

Where in the world did I say that the rest of the team didn't matter in today's game?


???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

My bad. I should have said "didn't matter as much."

Still doesn't take away from how stupid you sound.

"When they win a championship I will consider them "franchise."

"Marino was a franchise QB when he played because the rest of the team mattered more, even though he didn't win a championship."

"Marino wouldn't be a franchise QB in todays game because he didn't win a championship, even though he would likely dominate and win multiple championships."

"I'm a ****ing retard and can't stand behind anything I say and have to backtrack on everything."

notorious
01-14-2012, 11:13 AM
If you don't understand the difference in eras, than there is no help for you.


Good luck trolling someone else, you stickler piece of waste.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 11:14 AM
If you don't understand the difference in eras, than there is no help for you.


Good luck trolling someone else, you stickler piece of waste.

Era has nothing to do with it when your criteria was "championship."

Idiot.

Brock
01-14-2012, 11:14 AM
Meh.

milkman
01-14-2012, 11:16 AM
Marino didn't win a championship because the rest of the team was more important back then than it is now. Rules were more even between defense and offense

I disagree with this.

The importance of the rest of the team hasn't been diminished by the rules.

The importance of the QB has been magnified by the rules.

It doesn't sound like a big difference, but it really is.

The most complete team in these playoffs is the Saints.

They have Drew Brees, who leads a prolific passing attack, the 6th overall rushing offense, and a defense that, while not great, is head and shoulders above the defenses that the Pack and Patriots field.

Aaron Rodger is a unique talent, because he has no real weakness.

He has a strong arm, throws with good touch, outstanding mobility,is accurate inside and out of the pocket, and makes great decisions.

He is the one guy that is the equalizer between the Saints and his team.

Beyond that, there isn't another team in these playoffs that I think can match the Saints.

wutamess
01-14-2012, 11:25 AM
Newton?

Mile High Mania
01-14-2012, 11:26 AM
Stafford has been injured through his career but just put up a 5,000 yard season.

Cam Newton broke Peyton's rookie record for passing yards while running for another 700 and 14 TDs. Bringing his total TD:TO to 35:19.

Andy Dalton threw for 1.2 yards less on average than Newton and picked up 1 rushing TD. Bringing his TD:TO total to 21:15.

To put Andy Dalton in the discussion is completely stupid. "But he won games!" He was 1-6 against .500+ competition while putting up nothing close to Stafford/Newton.

So, 1 good season with lots of potential = franchise QB for you, but Dalton doesn't qualify? Interesting.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 11:41 AM
So, 1 good season with lots of potential = franchise QB for you, but Dalton doesn't qualify? Interesting.

I didn't put Newton in my "franchise" list.

Newton deserves consideration because of how dominant he was. He still needs to do it for, imo, at least 1 more year before its hard for me not to put him in that list.

Dalton is nothing more than a game manager. I will never put a game manager in a "franchise" QB list.

Extra Point
01-14-2012, 11:45 AM
Pick one from each division:
Rivers
Brady
Yates
Roethlisburger
Rogers
Brees
Manning
Smith

Captain Obvious says that's a big part of how they got in the playoffs. With one exception.

notorious
01-14-2012, 11:47 AM
I disagree with this.

The importance of the rest of the team hasn't been diminished by the rules.

The importance of the QB has been magnified by the rules.

It doesn't sound like a big difference, but it really is.

The most complete team in these playoffs is the Saints.

They have Drew Brees, who leads a prolific passing attack, the 6th overall rushing offense, and a defense that, while not great, is head and shoulders above the defenses that the Pack and Patriots field.

Aaron Rodger is a unique talent, because he has no real weakness.

He has a strong arm, throws with good touch, outstanding mobility,is accurate inside and out of the pocket, and makes great decisions.

He is the one guy that is the equalizer between the Saints and his team.

Beyond that, there isn't another team in these playoffs that I think can match the Saints.


Thanks for the respectful response, Milkman. You did a better job explaining the correlation between QB and team than I did.

notorious
01-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Era has nothing to do with it when your criteria was "championship."

Idiot.



I've said it before, I would hate to live life through your perspective.


Enjoy! LMAO

SNR
01-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Stafford is totally a franchise QB. You all need to put him on there. He's the leader of that team. 100%. Without him, the Lions are still a 5-11ish team, and Jim Schwartz gets fired.

Yeah, he makes mistakes. He's a gunslinger. He's also still pretty young, and needs at least another season to gel with his team.

milkman
01-14-2012, 11:54 AM
I didn't put Newton in my "franchise" list.

Newton deserves consideration because of how dominant he was. He still needs to do it for, imo, at least 1 more year before its hard for me not to put him in that list.

Dalton is nothing more than a game manager. I will never put a game manager in a "franchise" QB list.

Before we can ever hope to reach some kind of agreement on who is or isn't a franchise QB, we need to reach an agreement of definitions.

And I don't believe that we can ever agree on that.

I believe that being a game manager doesn't exclude you from being a franchise, or even elite QB.

I believe that Troy Aikman was both a game manager and an elite QB.

I believe that Dalton has the potential to be the same.

I believe that Brett Favre was an elite QB, but a terrible game manager, and the fact that he was a terrible game manager kept him from winning more than 1 SB.

SNR
01-14-2012, 11:56 AM
These are the FOR SURE franchise guys:

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Manning
Manning
Roethlisberger
Stafford
Rivers

After that, you have a tier of guys that are franchise signal callers who can definitely win your team a Super Bowl. But they're not the ESSENCE of their respective teams like those guys up top are. Those include Romo, Schaub, Cutler, Bradford (at least for now), Newton (will almost definitely be moved up into that top category), Freeman, and probably Flacco as well. And Ryan, too. Go ahead and put him up there I guess, even though I think he's dogshit.

If you're a football team who doesn't have one of the above mentioned QBs on your roster, then you need to go shopping or get raped (I'm looking at YOU, Kansas City)

The one guy I didn't categorize is Vick, who is a fucking chameleon. One minute he's elite, the next he's not. He's good for at least a month of missed games per year (not a characteristic you need of a franchise QB) and sometimes he completely reverts back to full retard Atlanta form even against bad defenses. He's Reid's problem, and the exception.

notorious
01-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Nobody has Flynn on their list?


Outrageous!

O.city
01-14-2012, 12:01 PM
IMO franchise qbs are guys who can, in the playoffs win by putting a team on his back. When the opposing defense is shutting down your running game, they can say "ok, I got this" sit back in the pocket and make GREAT accurate throws with 7 guys in coverage.

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Manning
Manning
Roethlisberger

Are the only guys who have done it so far.

I think Rivers could do it and I think Stafford has a chance to be at the top of the list in the future.

Newton is intriguing in that he can do so many things.

Dalton, IMO is no better than Cassel was last year.

SNR
01-14-2012, 12:06 PM
Nobody has Flynn on their list?


Outrageous!Oh. If we're allowing backups, then put Stanzi in the first category. And Flynn too, I guess.

notorious
01-14-2012, 12:09 PM
Oh. If we're allowing backups, then put Stanzi in the first category. And Flynn too, I guess.

All of the pieces are in place........

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:10 PM
IMO franchise qbs are guys who can, in the playoffs win by putting a team on his back. When the opposing defense is shutting down your running game, they can say "ok, I got this" sit back in the pocket and make GREAT accurate throws with 7 guys in coverage.

Rodgers
Brees
Brady
Manning
Manning
Roethlisberger

Are the only guys who have done it so far.

I think Rivers could do it and I think Stafford has a chance to be at the top of the list in the future.

Newton is intriguing in that he can do so many things.

Dalton, IMO is no better than Cassel was last year.

You do realize that Dalton had a rookie season that is equal to, or better than, any season that Cassel has played as a Chief, and that his best weapon was a rookie receiver, and he was not supported by the same kind of run game that Cassel had in '10, when he had his best season, right?

O.city
01-14-2012, 12:12 PM
You do realize that Dalton had a rookie season that is equal to, or better than, any season that Cassel has played as a Chief, and that his best weapon was a rookie receiver, and he was not supported by the same kind of run game that Cassel had in '10, when he had his best season, right?

I realize that Dalton was a rookie. I was meaning more that this season Dalton had, to me was more game managing than franchise qb. If that makes sense.

He beat 1 team with a record over .500. He shit in the playoffs.

I think he has alot of potential, but right now he doesn't scream franchise qb.

I don't think you can put Cam in there either, until they actually win some game.s

O.city
01-14-2012, 12:13 PM
You do realize that Dalton had a rookie season that is equal to, or better than, any season that Cassel has played as a Chief, and that his best weapon was a rookie receiver, and he was not supported by the same kind of run game that Cassel had in '10, when he had his best season, right?

He also had one of the top rated defenses in the league this year, where Cassel had middle of the pack last year at best.

JASONSAUTO
01-14-2012, 12:15 PM
To me separates QBs is what they do when it matters the most.

But I also think that coaching can make a hude difference.

I believe a stronger coach would have helped Peyton Manning get more than 1 SB win.

I believe that Rivers is an elite QB whose career has been held by back bad shitty coach.

I wonder if Mike Smith isn't too conservative, which hold Matt Ryan back, or if Matt Ryan dictates Mike Smith's conservative nature.

These are the guys I consider elite.

Rodgers
Brees
Both Manning's
Roethlisberger

Those are the guys that have proven it.

Brady?
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:16 PM
He also had one of the top rated defenses in the league this year, where Cassel had middle of the pack last year at best.

I think offensive performance has more of an impact on defensive performance than the other way around.

I think that's why the defense for the Chiefs really stepped up late in the season.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:16 PM
Brady?
Posted via Mobile Device

Yep.

Oversight.

beach tribe
01-14-2012, 12:17 PM
I think offensive performance has more of an impact on defensive performance than the other way around.

I think that's why the defense for the Chiefs really stepped up late in the season.

Dalton's career is gonna take a soulless ginger dump all over Cassel's.

Marcellus
01-14-2012, 12:17 PM
I realize that Dalton was a rookie. I was meaning more that this season Dalton had, to me was more game managing than franchise qb. If that makes sense.

He beat 1 team with a record over .500. He shit in the playoffs.

I think he has alot of potential, but right now he doesn't scream franchise qb.

I don't think you can put Cam in there either, until they actually win some game.s

As Milkman said, he is already at Cassel's level his rookie season. :banghead:

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:18 PM
To me Elite QB means a QB that makes the players around him better than they are.
P. Manning
T. Brady
D. Brees

To me Franchise QB is a QB that you can build a winning team around but he can't put the team on his back and win.
A. Rodgers
B. Roethlisberger
P. Rivers
E. Manning
M. Schaub

After these guys there are a bunch of middle of the road, or still to early to tell for sure type of guys, or just plain rookies that still have a lot to prove.

With the way the NFL has been changing the rules it is much easier for a QB to do well than it use to be.
A lot of QB's that are so good now probably would not of been so good several years ago.

JASONSAUTO
01-14-2012, 12:21 PM
Yep.

Oversight.

Forgetful huh? Thats what happens when you get that old I hear.
Posted via Mobile Device

jd1020
01-14-2012, 12:22 PM
To me Franchise QB is a QB that you can build a winning team around but he can't put the team on his back and win.
A. Rodgers
B. Roethlisberger
P. Rivers
E. Manning
M. Schaub

There's only 1 QB on this list that fits your definition... Schaub.

The rest fit your "elite" definition.

Take Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and E. Manning off their team and they become a shell of themselves.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:22 PM
To me Elite QB means a QB that makes the players around him better than they are.
P. Manning
T. Brady
D. Brees

To me Franchise QB is a QB that you can build a winning team around but he can't put the team on his back and win.
A. Rodgers
B. Roethlisberger
P. Rivers
E. Manning
M. Schaub

After these guys there are a bunch of middle of the road, or still to early to tell for sure type of guys, or just plain rookies that still have a lot to prove.

With the way the NFL has been changing the rules it is much easier for a QB to do well than it use to be.
A lot of QB's that are so good now probably would not of been so good several years ago.

Those are pretty fair definitions.

Good job.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Forgetful huh? Thats what happens when you get that old I hear.
Posted via Mobile Device

What were we talking about?

O.city
01-14-2012, 12:24 PM
The shitty thing about the whole Dalton situation is that he is ATLEAST where Cassel is right now, as a rookie.

Which sucks for us.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:24 PM
Marino didn't win a championship because the rest of the team was more important back then than it is now.

I totally disagree with this. The reason IMO that Marino never won a Championship is because of his own selfishness. His monitary demands kept that franchise from putting a better team around him. He always had to be the highest paid QB. He wouldn't run the plays that were called. He was a "Maverick".

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:25 PM
There's only 1 QB on this list that fits your definition... Schaub.

The rest fit your "elite" definition.

Take Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and E. Manning off their team and they become a shell of themselves.

I just focused on his definitions.

Should have paid more attention to his lists.

His definition are winners.

His lists are fail.

Holy crap!

notorious
01-14-2012, 12:27 PM
I totally disagree with this. The reason IMO that Marino never won a Championship is because of his own selfishness. His monitary demands kept that franchise from putting a better team around him. He always had to be the highest paid QB. He wouldn't run the plays that were called. He was a "Maverick".


You just agreed with me. :)


QB needed a good-great team around him to win a championship in that era.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:28 PM
There's only 1 QB on this list that fits your definition... Schaub.

The rest fit your "elite" definition.

Take Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and E. Manning off their team and they become a shell of themselves.

I don't think that E. Manning could win with some of the teams that Manning has had to win with.
With no run game and the defense less than on par Roethlisberger lost to the donkos.
Rodgers has a hell of a team around him. I want to see him do it a little longer before I put him as elite.
Rivers throws tantrums and can get rattled very easily. No way he is elite when he can't keep him emotions under control.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't think that E. Manning could win with some of the teams that Manning has had to win with.
With no run game and the defense less than on par Roethlisberger lost to the donkos.
Rodgers has a hell of a team around him. I want to see him do it a little longer before I put him as elite.
Rivers throws tantrums and can get rattled very easily. No way he is elite when he can't keep him emotions under control.

Did you forget how the Giants beat the Patriots?

Rodgers single handedly got the Packers into the playoffs last season and then won the SB.

Rivers still puts up elite numbers. He was the #1 QB last season and basically his entire offense was injured.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:31 PM
Did you forget how the Giants beat the Patriots?

No just because Tyree made a circus catch doesn't make Eli anything special. I think that Giants DLine had a lot to do with that win.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:33 PM
No just because Tyree made a circus catch doesn't make Eli anything special. I think that Giants DLine had a lot to do with that win.

Eli Manning stepped up and made critical plays throughout that playoff run.

And while that Tyree catch was exceptional, what Eli did on that play made that catch possible.

He stepped up and made a play.

notorious
01-14-2012, 12:34 PM
He stepped up and made a play.

Boy did he ever. The scramble on that play was epic.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:35 PM
And yes, Eli virtually carried that Giant offense through the entire season this year.

And there's no one better in the fourth qtr.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:41 PM
None of the QB's in my Franchise list would win a SB if they had to win it with the Defenses that my Elite list have won with. The only exception is Rodgers. I think he will be but like I said I just want to see him do it again.

Lbedrock1
01-14-2012, 12:42 PM
Forget drafting a franchise qb lets develope one. Let us find the best qb coach out there and develope Stanzi. Let put him in a system where he learns to read defense and knows what to do because he knows the offensive system like the back of his hand. I believe this is what make the great ones great. They know where everyone is on the field. I think we need to find out what we have in Stanzi before we go giving the farm away. We need the best qb coach right now.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 12:45 PM
None of the QB's in my Franchise list would win a SB if they had to win it with the Defenses that my Elite list have won with. The only exception is Rodgers. I think he will be but like I said I just want to see him do it again.

Ummmm...

Eli and Roethlisberger both had come back SB wins late in the 4th.

The only one that doesn't is Rivers because he hasn't won 1.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:46 PM
None of the QB's in my Franchise list would win a SB if they had to win it with the Defenses that my Elite list have won with. The only exception is Rodgers. I think he will be but like I said I just want to see him do it again.

None of the QBs on your elite list have won it with historically bad defenses either.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:49 PM
None of the QBs on your elite list have won it with historically bad defenses either.

Teams with historically bad defenses don't make the playoffs at all.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:52 PM
Ummmm...

Eli and Roethlisberger both had come back SB wins late in the 4th.

The only one that doesn't is Rivers because he hasn't won 1.

That has nothing to do with the fact of the huge differences between the D that the Colts have every year and the type of defenses that the Giants and or Steelers have every year.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 12:53 PM
Teams with historically bad defenses don't make the playoffs at all.

NE and GB are 31st and 32nd in total defense.

jd1020
01-14-2012, 12:54 PM
That has nothing to do with the fact of the huge differences between the D that the Colts have every year and the type of defenses that the Giants and or Steelers have every year.

It has everything to do with Eli and Roethlisberger putting the team on their back and winning the most important game of the NFL season... Making them above your definition of a "franchise" QB.

notorious
01-14-2012, 12:54 PM
Teams with historically bad defenses don't make the playoffs at all.

New England and Green Bay say "Hi".


I really don't know if they are historically bad, but they are bad.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:55 PM
NE and GB are 31st and 32nd in total defense.

They still are not historically bad.

milkman
01-14-2012, 12:55 PM
Teams with historically bad defenses don't make the playoffs at all.

Really?

Have you seen the Patriots and Packers play this year?

And, in fact, Brady won all his SBs when the Patriots were among the better defenses in the league.

He hasn't won since that defense started to decline.

AndManning won his SB when his defense was ranked around 20th for the season, with out Bob Sanders, but that defense stepped up and carried Manning to his SB win.

Manning actually did his best to give away a couple of those playoff games.

The fact is, the only guy on your list that actually qualifies for your elite status is Brees.

notorious
01-14-2012, 12:57 PM
Manning actually did his best to give away a couple of those playoff games.




Fuck!!!!!!!


Repressed memories came flooding back.


No first downs until the end of the 3rd quarter.......

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 12:58 PM
Really?

Have you seen the Patriots and Packers play this year?

And, in fact, Brady won all his SBs when the Patriots were among the better defenses in the league.

He hasn't won since that defense started to decline.

AndManning won his SB when his defense was ranked around 20th for the season, with out Bob Sanders, but that defense stepped up and carried Manning to his SB win.

Manning actually did his best to give away a couple of those playoff games.

The fact is, the only guy on your list that actually qualifies for your elite status is Brees.
Bob Sanders came back for the playoffs and SB that year. If Sanders didn't come back they wouldn't of won that SB.

SNR
01-14-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't think that E. Manning could win with some of the teams that Manning has had to win with.
With no run game and the defense less than on par Roethlisberger lost to the donkos.
Rodgers has a hell of a team around him. I want to see him do it a little longer before I put him as elite.
Rivers throws tantrums and can get rattled very easily. No way he is elite when he can't keep him emotions under control.
And Brees doesn't have a hell of a team around him?

If you can, watch Aaron Rodgers against the Falcons in the playoffs last year. And then watch his Super Bowl performance. tk13 said it in another thread, but Rodgers doesn't just play football, he plays in a goddamn zone. It's like he has achieved QB nirvana, a Zen-like state where he throws the ball with his mind, and simply allows his arm to follow behind. In QB nirvana, he knows there is no throw that he can not make and no coverage in which he can not decipher its weakness. I have NEVER seen a QB achieve this kind of harmony on the field.

Really, the only athlete PERIOD I've ever seen who plays with that kind of aura about him is Michael Jordan.

Brees is great. Brady is great. Yes, they are both fantastic QBs. But they're still playing the game. They make mistakes all the time. Aaron just doesn't play the game when he steps on the field. He IS the game.

Quite simply, Aaron Rodgers does not make mistakes. He plays this way both at home and on the road. Brees can spin feces into gold in that comfy little dome of his, but he is a different QB when he has to go places. Still a damn good QB, but not what he is at home.

That's why Aaron is the best QB in the NFL. He achieves that high, high level of play without the use of a decent running game, and often has to put up with shitty idiots like Jermichael Finley and James Jones.

Brees has a running game, he's got better protection, and with Graham, his receiving options are comparable to Rodgers'. It's a myth that Aaron's talent around him is that much better.

milkman
01-14-2012, 01:11 PM
Bob Sanders came back for the playoffs and SB that year. If Sanders didn't come back they wouldn't of won that SB.

I'm aware of that.

I pointed out thier team ranking for the regular season without Bob Sanders.

And this only enhances my point.

Bottom line, no team that finished lower than 26th in defense in the regular season has gone on to win the SB.

And neither Brady's, Manning's, or Brees' teams finished lower than 25th.

Tribal Warfare
01-14-2012, 01:16 PM
Really, the only athlete PERIOD I've ever seen who plays with that kind of aura about him is Michael Jordan.



Montana did, hell right after he won the Monday Night showdown against Elway and the Broncos in '94 a Denver player actually gave him a ball to sign with a pen available when he was talking to Elway during the postgame handshake and talk at midfield.

Chief Roundup
01-14-2012, 01:31 PM
And Brees doesn't have a hell of a team around him?

If you can, watch Aaron Rodgers against the Falcons in the playoffs last year. And then watch his Super Bowl performance. tk13 said it in another thread, but Rodgers doesn't just play football, he plays in a goddamn zone. It's like he has achieved QB nirvana, a Zen-like state where he throws the ball with his mind, and simply allows his arm to follow behind. In QB nirvana, he knows there is no throw that he can not make and no coverage in which he can not decipher its weakness. I have NEVER seen a QB achieve this kind of harmony on the field.

Really, the only athlete PERIOD I've ever seen who plays with that kind of aura about him is Michael Jordan.

Brees is great. Brady is great. Yes, they are both fantastic QBs. But they're still playing the game. They make mistakes all the time. Aaron just doesn't play the game when he steps on the field. He IS the game.

Quite simply, Aaron Rodgers does not make mistakes. He plays this way both at home and on the road. Brees can spin feces into gold in that comfy little dome of his, but he is a different QB when he has to go places. Still a damn good QB, but not what he is at home.

That's why Aaron is the best QB in the NFL. He achieves that high, high level of play without the use of a decent running game, and often has to put up with shitty idiots like Jermichael Finley and James Jones.

Brees has a running game, he's got better protection, and with Graham, his receiving options are comparable to Rodgers'. It's a myth that Aaron's talent around him is that much better.

Absolutely Brees has a hell of a team around him too. He has just been making it happen longer than Rodgers. Brees has also changed teams, OC, and had to come back from shoulder surgery.
We have seen a lot of players leave the Colts and fail elsewhere. Meanwhile Manning keeps on plugging away. We have seen OC after OC leave the Patriots and Brady just keeps on. We have seen Brady do it with various talent levels at WR around him.
I agree with you about Rodgers. I want to see him lose some weapons and some coaches and then see how he does. Before I elevate him to elite.

He sure looked "off his game" against us missing Jennings. Worst I have ever seen him look for a whole game. Probably nothing but I haven't forgot about that yet.
Disclaimer: I know our D is not that bad... Blah Blah I am not taking anything away from the performance of our D that day.

O.city
01-14-2012, 02:31 PM
Don't care who the quarterback is, when he is constantly pressured he is gonna look like shit. We had the perfect gameplan against the Pack.

To be honest, we are built pretty damn perfectly to beat these passing teams these days, if things keep coming on.

We have a great pair of corners, who can play bump and run. We have two good safeties, with the possibility of one (hopefully all goes well with the injury recovery) becoming great.

We have good rushbackers with the emergence of Houston, paired with Tamba. If we keep Gilberry and thin him back down to rush the passer like he should, paired with Bailey we have some good package rushers. Hell Jackson has showed some ability to rush the passer.

What I am getting at is that the Chiefs are set up pretty well defensively to beat franchise quarterbacks. It's refreshing.

whoman69
01-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Teams that don't have a franchise QB are going to have to have something else going on for them, most likely a combination of good running game and defense and a team that does not give the ball up. Even then they have to force turnovers. You have to be able to make 3rd downs when the run fails. A Matt Cassel is not going to get that job done. What a franchise QB can do is pull a team out of that strategy very quickly if they get a few quick scores. Guys like Mannning and Breese want teams to blitz because they know there will be man coverage.

Epic Fail 007
01-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Kc has thier franchise qb if they would just open their eyes and let him play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh3063BlVuk

Epic Fail 007
01-14-2012, 03:02 PM
Start stanzi 2012! http://youtu.be/0t7Ck6CjZ2k

chiefzilla1501
01-14-2012, 03:09 PM
In any given 10-year span, you generally get 6 or 7. That means that in 10 years, 25 or 26 teams are not going to have a franchise QB.

That's why I think CP is going overboard with this talk about how we have to draft a franchise QB or bust and that we shouldn't consider RBs like Trent Richardson. Sorry, but in 10 years, getting a franchise QB is about being both aggressive but also very lucky. But being aggressive increases your chance of getting lucky.

But if you don't luck out, you still have to build a team operating under the assumption that you may never land a franchise QB.