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View Full Version : Chiefs Why not Kellen Moore ?


OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 10:19 AM
There may be the second coming of Drew Brees in this years draft. Kellen Moore is a coaches son who has incredible accuracy and pocket awareness. Here's a link.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1011896-2012-nfl-draft-5-reasons-why-sf-49ers-should-target-qb-kellen-moore

Count Alex's Losses
01-17-2012, 10:20 AM
Maybe in the 4th. He's 6-1, 190 lbs.

Saul Good
01-17-2012, 10:21 AM
He's not 6-1. He's about 5-11.

petegz28
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
5'11" with a weak arm? No thanks

L.A. Chieffan
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
Cassell has him on nearly every measurable.

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
He's tiny. Will probably measure shorter than his listed height at the combine.

Mr_Tomahawk
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
Can he throw a football beyond 20 yards?

petegz28
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
Can he throw a football beyond 20 yards?

Is that legal?

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:22 AM
I wouldn't be upset if Pioli drafted him. We are going to have 1, if not 2 new QBs on the roster next season. I think he's going to be a steal late in the draft.

Pasta Giant Meatball
01-17-2012, 10:23 AM
I seem to remember a why not Graham Harrel thread in the not so distant past.

Count Alex's Losses
01-17-2012, 10:24 AM
He's also a lefty, which works out about once every 10 years.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:25 AM
He's also a lefty, which works out about once every 10 years.

Gotta stay away from lefty and USC QBs. They are all bad. Every last one of them.

Saul Good
01-17-2012, 10:26 AM
He's Ken Dorsey without the height.

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 10:26 AM
I seem to remember a why not Graham Harrel thread in the not so distant past.

And a why not Colt Brennan one before that.

Chiefnj2
01-17-2012, 10:27 AM
And a why not Colt Brennan one before that.

Brennan was undersized with a weak arm?

Count Alex's Losses
01-17-2012, 10:28 AM
Gotta stay away from lefty and USC QBs. They are all bad. Every last one of them.

Steve Young, Boomer Esiason, Ken Stabler...was anyone else worth a shit? Drawing a blank.

edit - Brunell, Vick, but they never won shit.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
The guy has a 50/3 record as a starter and NFL scouts say he has great pocket presence. He is the same size as Drew Brees and has compiled better college stats. Something about guys that win translates better to the NFL than guys with size. I think he will be a better pro than Cousins for sure who has an NFL body. I still remember this QB drafted by the niners in the third round that was too skinny and rag armed that all he did in college was win....

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
Steve Young, Boomer Esiason, Ken Stabler...was anyone else worth a shit? Drawing a blank.

edit - Brunell, Vick, but they never won shit.

Care to compare the number of lefty QBs to righty QBs? Not just ones that made it.

Gonzo
01-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Steve Young, Boomer Esiason, Ken Stabler...was anyone else worth a shit? Drawing a blank.

edit - Brunell, Vick, but they never won shit.

1942-1952 - Frankie Albert
1943-1947 - Allie Sherman
1947 - Ernie Case
1956 - Fred Wyant
1963-1965 - Terry Baker
1968-1984 - Ken Stabler
1969-1978 - Bobby Douglass
1971-1975 - Jim Del Gaizo
1973-1974 - Dennis Morrison
1975-1984 - David Humm
1976-1987 - Jim Zorn
1980-1986 - Paul McDonald
1984-1997 - Boomer Esiason
1985-1999 - Steve Young
1989-1997 - Erik Wilhelm
1989-1992 - Jeff Carlson
1990-2001 - Scott Mitchell
1991-1992 - Todd Marinovich
1992-1997 - Will Furrer
1993-Present - Mark Brunell *
1994-1998 - Doug Nussmeier
1994-1998 - Steve Matthews
1997-1999 - Tony Graziani
1999-2003 - Brock Huard
1999-2002 - Cade McNown
2000-2001 - Matt Lytle
2001-2001 - Josh Heupel (Only played in training camp due to injury)
2001-Present - Michael Vick *
2003-Present - Chris Simms *
2003-2005 - Dave Ragone
2003-2004 - Greg Zolman
2004-2007 - Jared Lorenzen
2005-2005 - Stefan Lefors (Never played in a single game)
2005-2007 - David Greene (Never played in a single game)
2006-Present - Matt Leinart *
2009-2009 - Pat White (Joined MLB 9/10/10, retired from MLB 3/9/11)
2009-Present - Tyler Palko *
2010-Present - Tim Tebow *
2010-Present - Sean Canfield *

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 10:33 AM
Brennan was undersized with a weak arm?

He was light. Measured 6'3, 205 at the combine. For comparison, Aaron Rodgers is 6'2 225, Brady is 6'4 225, Brees 6'0 209.

Not a weak arm, but another guy from a smaller program who wasn't worth drafting yet some people salivated over.

Chiefnj2
01-17-2012, 10:34 AM
The guy has a 50/3 record as a starter and NFL scouts say he has great pocket presence. He is the same size as Drew Brees and has compiled better college stats. Something about guys that win translates better to the NFL than guys with size. I think he will be a better pro than Cousins for sure who has an NFL body. I still remember this QB drafted by the niners in the third round that was too skinny and rag armed that all he did in college was win....

Brees was 6' 213lbs. Lets see what Moore comes in at. Plus, Brees had a stronger arm in college.

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Brees was 6' 213lbs. Lets see what Moore comes in at. Plus, Brees had a stronger arm in college.

& played against tougher competition on a regular basis.

suds79
01-17-2012, 10:36 AM
The guy has a 50/3 record as a starter and NFL scouts say he has great pocket presence. He is the same size as Drew Brees and has compiled better college stats. Something about guys that win translates better to the NFL than guys with size. I think he will be a better pro than Cousins for sure who has an NFL body. I still remember this QB drafted by the niners in the third round that was too skinny and rag armed that all he did in college was win....

Drew Brees (6'0 the bare minimum) has become the Muggsy Bogues of the NFL. One small guys makes it and all of a sudden every short person has a chance.

Lets see what he measures in at the combine. If he's 5'11? He's done.

L.A. Chieffan
01-17-2012, 10:37 AM
Moore plays on a blue field. How many other successful qbs in the NFL came from an all blue field? Exactly

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Brees was 6' 213lbs. Lets see what Moore comes in at. Plus, Brees had a stronger arm in college.

Here is an excerpt from the NFLdraftscout on Brees at the combine.

"Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws...Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment."

htismaqe
01-17-2012, 10:38 AM
& played against tougher competition on a regular basis.

To be fair, Moore played (and BEAT) some pretty damn good teams.

htismaqe
01-17-2012, 10:39 AM
Here is an excerpt from the NFLdraftscout on Brees at the combine.

"Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws...Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment."

Brees averaged something like 5.3 yards per attempt his first 2 seasons in the NFL. He made Matt Cassel look like a long bomber.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:41 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CoP1hFnrfGU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Look at that weak ass arm. Looks like Tyler Palko throwing the ball... :rolleyes:

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:42 AM
To be fair, Moore played (and BEAT) some pretty damn good teams.

This. Moore seems to have shown everything you'd like to see in a QB...aside from physically ability.

And BTW, just because Brees is short means dick.

Same ol' retarded comparison.

But Brees is short (Moore)

But Brady was a late round Pick (every Late rnd Qb we think is a Franchise guy)

the list goes on and on.


These are called exceptions. And the list of Exceptions, people, is a very, very, very short list.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Brees averaged something like 5.3 yards per attempt his first 2 seasons in the NFL. He made Matt Cassel look like a long bomber.

Also true.

Everyone wants to act like Brees was some great QB coming out of college. He wasn't. He wasn't very good at all actually. He didn't start playing worth a shit till the Chargers took Rivers in the 1st. Then he had an 'ok' season.

Akron's#1ChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 10:45 AM
Brennan was undersized with a weak arm?

Actually, yes. Those were the exact knocks that were made about his game.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 10:46 AM
Put Moore in a situation like New Orleans where he can play his home games indoors and his road divisional games in warm-weather, easy climates and maybe he can do a passable job.

But his arm simply isn't strong enough to drive the football. If he's going to be throwing in a stiff wind or in cold conditions where the ball gets heavy; hell if he has to throw in the rain - you're going to have to eliminate half the playbook because he can't power the football through the conditions.

Additionally, a quarterback like Moore (and even Brees to a lesser extent) has to rely on perfect timing to get the ball to his WRs because he doesn't have the arm strength to fire it in there. As such, the windows get smaller before DBs are able to break on the ball and knock them away; his fastball simply isn't quick enough to blow by a defensive back. For a rhythm offense to work correctly, you have to pass the ball a TON. If you don't, you're going to get a lot of DBs driving on out routes, even short ones, and housing them against you.

So for Moore to be successful here, we'd have to build a pass-first, timing offense around a physically limited quarterback...and pray it never rains, snows or is otherwise windy.

There aren't a lot of guys out there that are easier to root for than Moore, but the fact is that he's simply not physically strong enough to be a viable option for a 'full-climate' team like Kansas City. Especially not when our defense is built around a 2-gap, fairly passive defensive scheme. We'd want a much more aggressive defense if we were going to build an offense for Moore to thrive in. Crennel's not going to abandon the scheme he's adhered to for decades for Kellen Moore.

Sorry - but he's not a good fit here, at all. I'd rather have Cousins or Osweiler late. Hell, if we're going w/ undersized QBs, I'd rather have Keenum or Russell Wilson. It's not because Moore's short, it's because he has a popgun arm.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:46 AM
And FTR, I would love to have him, just not before the 3rd round. I think he's a potential gamer, and at worse, a decent Back up.

L.A. Chieffan
01-17-2012, 10:49 AM
Also true.

Everyone wants to act like Brees was some great QB coming out of college. He wasn't. He wasn't very good at all actually. He didn't start playing worth a shit till the Chargers took Rivers in the 1st. Then he had an 'ok' season.

Drew Brees' early career numbers look very similar to a chiefs qb. :hmmm:

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:54 AM
So for Moore to be successful here, we'd have to build a pass-first, timing offense around a physically limited quarterback...and pray it never rains, snows or is otherwise windy.

And we'd have to become a pass first team because?????

Akron's#1ChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 10:54 AM
Why not Kellen Moore? Is this for real?

Look, the Chiefs already have one late round QB who will be lucky to ever get a shot at playing in the NFL. I'd love it if Stanzi turns out to be a diamond in the rough, but from what I've seen of him... Oh that's right. No one has seen ANYTHING from him. Palko played in front of him, and he's still on the roster.

That's why not Kellen Moore.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:55 AM
What I like about Moore:

Accurate Arm. I think he could be a bit more accurate, but I think that'll occur with time.

Mobile in the pocket

Not afraid of the pass rush, which is HUGE. For me, it's the biggest positive a Qb can have. The ability to stand in the pocket.

He's a winner. The guy just wins. No matter how you wanna slice it, he plays like a gamer. IMO, he has the "IT" factor.

If only he were 6" taller and 20 pound heavier......Dude would be a 1st rounder.

htismaqe
01-17-2012, 10:55 AM
Drew Brees' early career numbers look very similar to a chiefs qb. :hmmm:

Ahem...

Brees averaged something like 5.3 yards per attempt his first 2 seasons in the NFL. He made Matt Cassel look like a long bomber.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Why not Kellen Moore? Is this for real?

Look, the Chiefs already have one late round QB who will be lucky to ever get a shot at playing in the NFL. I'd love it if Stanzi turns out to be a diamond in the rough, but from what I've seen of him... Oh that's right. No one has seen ANYTHING from him. Palko played in front of him, and he's still on the roster.

That's why not Kellen Moore.

Palko played in front of him because of one man, and one man alone... Haley. Palko is a RFA and will be lucky to ever play in the NFL again.

htismaqe
01-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Sorry - but he's not a good fit here, at all. I'd rather have Cousins or Osweiler late. Hell, if we're going w/ undersized QBs, I'd rather have Keenum or Russell Wilson. It's not because Moore's short, it's because he has a popgun arm.

Stanzi is at the very least equal to Cousins. He's a waste of a draft pick, at least for us.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 10:57 AM
And we'd have to become a pass first team because?????

Because you can't run a rhythm offense passing the ball 22 times/gm. How are WRs and QBs going to get into and stay in-synch that way?

The margin for error w/ a weak-armed QB is so slight that everything has to timed to within a second here or there. If you're only passing to set up the run, that timing is never going to be as good as it needs to be.

You can't use a guy like Moore as a starter in a run-first offense.

L.A. Chieffan
01-17-2012, 10:57 AM
Ahem...

smaqe is on board! Who else??

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Palko played in front of him because of one man, and one man alone... Haley. Palko is a RFA and will be lucky to ever play in the NFL again.

Palko is done. If Palko lands on another team, he can thank Jesus and better go to Church every Sunday.

L.A. Chieffan
01-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Cmon everybody, get on the Cassell is an early version of Drew Brees bandwagon!!

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 10:59 AM
Because you can't run a rhythm offense passing the ball 22 times/gm. How are WRs and QBs going to get into and stay in-synch that way?

The margin for error w/ a weak-armed QB is so slight that everything has to timed to within a second here or there. If you're only passing to set up the run, that timing is never going to be as good as it needs to be.

You can't use a guy like Moore as a starter in a run-first offense.

In all fairness, if we're only passing the ball 22 times a game, we probably aren't winning anyway. The offense, at some point, will have to open up.

isn't that the reason we are looking for a Franchise QB?



Not a good argument IMO.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:00 AM
You can't use a guy like Moore as a starter in a run-first offense.

You are going to have to go deeper into explaining this.

Moore doesn't have an Aaron Rodgers arm but he's thrown 50 yard deep balls to his receivers in stride on multiple occasions in college. He can get the ball down field if he wants and can put enough zip, coupled with his accuracy, to beat defenses on short-mid routes.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:02 AM
Palko is done. If Palko lands on another team, he can thank Jesus and better go to Church every Sunday.

Tebow is booked all year.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 11:03 AM
Also true.

Everyone wants to act like Brees was some great QB coming out of college. He wasn't. He wasn't very good at all actually. He didn't start playing worth a shit till the Chargers took Rivers in the 1st. Then he had an 'ok' season.

I guess you mean 2003 when the whole team was struggling not just Brees. His QB rating the next year was 104.8 might of had something to do with them getting a certain TE as an undrafted FA that year. They didn't get Jackson until 2005.

My point of this is if you are not drafting in the top 5 and you need a QB leave no stone unturned. Moore might have some ability and can probably be had as an undrafted FA.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:03 AM
What I like about Moore:

Accurate Arm. I think he could be a bit more accurate, but I think that'll occur with time.

Mobile in the pocket

Not afraid of the pass rush, which is HUGE. For me, it's the biggest positive a Qb can have. The ability to stand in the pocket.

He's a winner. The guy just wins. No matter how you wanna slice it, he plays like a gamer. IMO, he has the "IT" factor.

If only he were 6" taller and 20 pound heavier......Dude would be a 1st rounder.

And so is Tim Tebow. I swear to god, I never want to hear "he's a winner" in regards to a college quarterback again in my life. It's just completely irrelevant and it's often revisionist bullshit that we hear after the fact.

And he may not be afraid of the pass rush now, but wait until NFL lineman and LBers are blasting him. A little fear of the pass-rush is a good thing, especially if you weigh 190 lbs; this aint Big Ben - he can't take that pounding. Worse still, unlike a guy like Rogers who could roll out a little bit and still have the arm strength to fire the ball, Moore basically has to step into his throws to make them go anywhere, so he has no real choice but to get blasted.

He won't be able to really throw on the move in this league due to his limited arm so you can't even roll him left or right to move the pocket to slow down pass-rushes. Further, 'the ability to stand in the pocket' is only good if you can survive the impact or at least minimize the harm thereof. Moore has to put his whole body into throws and if he has to do that in the fact of a rush 15 - 20 times/gm, he's simply going to get physically abused.

He's a non-entity here, IMO.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:05 AM
My point of this is if you are not drafting in the top 5 and you need a QB leave no stone unturned. Moore might have some ability and can probably be had as an undrafted FA.

I highly doubt that. He will be drafted and probably earlier than people expect. I don't expect him to go any earlier than the 5th.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 11:06 AM
You are going to have to go deeper into explaining this.

Moore doesn't have an Aaron Rodgers arm but he's thrown 50 yard deep balls to his receivers in stride on multiple occasions in college. He can get the ball down field if he wants and can put enough zip, coupled with his accuracy, to beat defenses on short-mid routes.

What he's trying to say is that Moore's skill set is best suited for a timing offense, like Brees'.

And I could agree with that. I watch him play and, yeah, he looks like the type of QB that should be throwing to a spot rather than forcing an improv throw on the fly. His argument is that our offense won't throw enough to let him develop the timing needed to for him to be successful. That I don't agree with.

This team should be transitioning to an offense like that, not standing pat and leaning on a run game.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:07 AM
You are going to have to go deeper into explaining this.

Moore doesn't have an Aaron Rodgers arm but he's thrown 50 yard deep balls to his receivers in stride on multiple occasions in college. He can get the ball down field if he wants and can put enough zip, coupled with his accuracy, to beat defenses on short-mid routes.

Deep balls have nothing to do with it (though the amount of air he has to put under them would make them meat for ball-hawk safeties like Ed Reed, witness what they did to TJ Yates last week).

A simple 10-yard out needs to either be thrown with enough zip to put it past a driving DB or it needs to be thrown with letter-perfect timing before his WR even thinks about making his break, to ensure that the little hump he'll have to put into it to get it there isn't enough for the DB to adjust and break it up.

He doesn't have the fastball to drive it past a DB, so the timing has to be nails even on short passing routes. If you're not a legitimate deep passing threat (and we wouldn't be), DBs could play tight on the corners and look to jump those routes.

Moore would be a disaster in a run-first system, IMO.

Chiefnj2
01-17-2012, 11:08 AM
His height plus throwing motion and release = lots of fumbles and batted balls.

Count Alex's Losses
01-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Kellen Moore under Romeo Crennel would be even greater odds for a SB championship.

Let's get the oldest head coach possible, and the least physically prototypical quarterback and shock the world.

ILChief
01-17-2012, 11:10 AM
Stanzi will be a much better pro than Moore

Dave Lane
01-17-2012, 11:11 AM
I'd be in for a 2nd or a 3rd on him. Of course given our track record in the 2nd it might be safer to draft him in the 3rd :)

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 11:11 AM
And so is Tim Tebow. I swear to god, I never want to hear "he's a winner" in regards to a college quarterback again in my life. It's just completely irrelevant and it's often revisionist bullshit that we hear after the fact.

And he may not be afraid of the pass rush now, but wait until NFL lineman and LBers are blasting him. A little fear of the pass-rush is a good thing, especially if you weigh 190 lbs; this aint Big Ben - he can't take that pounding. Worse still, unlike a guy like Rogers who could roll out a little bit and still have the arm strength to fire the ball, Moore basically has to step into his throws to make them go anywhere, so he has no real choice but to get blasted.

He won't be able to really throw on the move in this league due to his limited arm so you can't even roll him left or right to move the pocket to slow down pass-rushes. Further, 'the ability to stand in the pocket' is only good if you can survive the impact or at least minimize the harm thereof. Moore has to put his whole body into throws and if he has to do that in the fact of a rush 15 - 20 times/gm, he's simply going to get physically abused.

He's a non-entity here, IMO.


Comparing him to a guy like Tebow is retarded, you know that. Completely different skill sets.

And does Moore have a long injury history? Because even on the college level, he's getting hit.

IMO, in order for Moore to work out in the NFL, like you said, he needs to develop great timing with his WR's and get the ball out quickly to minimize the amount of times he gets hit.

It's doable.

Akron's#1ChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 11:12 AM
Palko played in front of him because of one man, and one man alone... Haley. Palko is a RFA and will be lucky to ever play in the NFL again.

Yeah, Palko is Brodie Croyle bad. That's bad....

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:15 AM
In all fairness, if we're only passing the ball 22 times a game, we probably aren't winning anyway. The offense, at some point, will have to open up.

isn't that the reason we are looking for a Franchise QB?

Not a good argument IMO.

If we're passing 40 times/gm, Romeo's 2-gap scheme is going to be far less effective and that bend but don't break thing just isn't going to fly.

And even if we throw the ball 30 times/gm, I don't want to be doing it from an offense like the Saints or even the Pats. I know everyone wants to say the running game is dead, but I disagree. Trying to be exclusively a running team may be dead, but I still think to have a consistently successful team you need to have no worse than an above-average running game. You need to be able to present a credible threat of running the football at all times and you need to be able to adapt on days that the pass just isn't working (some days that's going to happen).

I want to remain no worse than a single-back offense starting from under center. If you're going to run a small, undersized quarterback out there you essentially have to operate a pure timing-pattern, shotgun style offense where you run the ball as something of a changeup.

I don't like that idea at all. I don't mind having it in our bag, but I damn sure don't want to build an offense focused on that kind of football; it's simply too dependent on things you can't control. Further, it also requires a HOF caliber QB to operate it well.

I know we keep looking to teams like NO, NE and GB as 'model' offenses, but that's because they happen to have 3 QBs that are potential HOFers by the time all is said and done, hell all 3 could end up being considered top 20 guys ever. Even if we hit on a 'franchise' guy, it's going to be more like Eli Manning or Cutler or Big Ben; guys that are very good QBs but all of those guys need versatile, rounded offenses to succeed.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:19 AM
Comparing him to a guy like Tebow is retarded, you know that. Completely different skill sets.

And does Moore have a long injury history? Because even on the college level, he's getting hit.

IMO, in order for Moore to work out in the NFL, like you said, he needs to develop great timing with his WR's and get the ball out quickly to minimize the amount of times he gets hit.

It's doable.

He's getting hit by MAC sized players. Subject him to 16 weeks of NFL-sized guys hitting him and he'll break.

It's 'doable' only to the extent that it's not completely impossible. But like I said, the odds are better that Osweiler, Cousins, Stanzi or a number of other QBs that wouldn't require Swiss-Watch style precision would actually succeed at this level.

You have to do too much to build your offense around his weaknesses for me to be at all comfortable with a guy like Moore at QB. At that point you're playing to his faults, not your strengths. It's essentially like building a team around Tyler Palko - and yes, they have startlingly similar physical skill-sets. There's just not enough to work with there to justify building an offense around it.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 11:20 AM
And so is Tim Tebow. I swear to god, I never want to hear "he's a winner" in regards to a college quarterback again in my life. It's just completely irrelevant and it's often revisionist bullshit that we hear after the fact.

And he may not be afraid of the pass rush now, but wait until NFL lineman and LBers are blasting him. A little fear of the pass-rush is a good thing, especially if you weigh 190 lbs; this aint Big Ben - he can't take that pounding. Worse still, unlike a guy like Rogers who could roll out a little bit and still have the arm strength to fire the ball, Moore basically has to step into his throws to make them go anywhere, so he has no real choice but to get blasted.

He won't be able to really throw on the move in this league due to his limited arm so you can't even roll him left or right to move the pocket to slow down pass-rushes. Further, 'the ability to stand in the pocket' is only good if you can survive the impact or at least minimize the harm thereof. Moore has to put his whole body into throws and if he has to do that in the fact of a rush 15 - 20 times/gm, he's simply going to get physically abused.

He's a non-entity here, IMO.

All your points are good ones and I mostly concur. When your looking for a QB you can't let the "he doesn't fit the mold" stuff keep you from giving a guy a shot. Kurt Warner did not have a great arm, Joe Montana did not have a great arm,Tom Brady did not have a great arm, Lenny Dawson did not have a great arm, Dan Fouts did not have a great arm, Ken Stabler did not have a big arm and Johnny Unitas did not have a big arm. I admit todays game more than ever requires a QB to make all the throws.

I do not agree with your assumption that someone with a weaker arm needs more throws to succeed than someone with a stronger arm. Accurate is accurate, I saw Lenny throw the ball well in all kinds of weather and in his heyday he could only throw the ball 55 yards and they ran much more than the Chiefs of today. I don't remember Joe Montana struggling with the winds at Candlestick. I have seen Elway not be able to throw it in the rain. There are a lot of factors that affect QBs and arm strength is not the only measuring stick. That said your points are well taken. I do not think Moore will be drafted. I have seen a lot of Mock drafts and have yet to see one that has him drafted.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:23 AM
I have seen a lot of Mock drafts and have yet to see one that has him drafted.

Weird. I haven't seen 1 mock yet that covered all 32 teams and all 7 rounds.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
If we're passing 40 times/gm, Romeo's 2-gap scheme is going to be far less effective and that bend but don't break thing just isn't going to fly.

And even if we throw the ball 30 times/gm, I don't want to be doing it from an offense like the Saints or even the Pats. I know everyone wants to say the running game is dead, but I disagree. Trying to be exclusively a running team may be dead, but I still think to have a consistently successful team you need to have no worse than an above-average running game. You need to be able to present a credible threat of running the football at all times and you need to be able to adapt on days that the pass just isn't working (some days that's going to happen).

I want to remain no worse than a single-back offense starting from under center. If you're going to run a small, undersized quarterback out there you essentially have to operate a pure timing-pattern, shotgun style offense where you run the ball as something of a changeup.

I don't like that idea at all. I don't mind having it in our bag, but I damn sure don't want to build an offense focused on that kind of football; it's simply too dependent on things you can't control. Further, it also requires a HOF caliber QB to operate it well.

I know we keep looking to teams like NO, NE and GB as 'model' offenses, but that's because they happen to have 3 QBs that are potential HOFers by the time all is said and done, hell all 3 could end up being considered top 20 guys ever. Even if we hit on a 'franchise' guy, it's going to be more like Eli Manning or Cutler or Big Ben; guys that are very good QBs but all of those guys need versatile, rounded offenses to succeed.

The whole argument about the defense doesn't make sense at all. The only thing the offense does that should affect the D is how many times it's going 3 and out. If the offense is having success, the D will not suffer. And in case you haven't noticed, through those final few games, the Chiefs became more of a pressure Defense. Blitzes became quite a bit more frequent. If that even matters. Which, IMO, it won't.

And I'm not saying you should abandon the running game. You seem to think a timing offense can't co-exist with a running game. I disagree.

MahiMike
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
Drew Brees will never amount to anything.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:25 AM
All your points are good ones and I mostly concur. When your looking for a QB you can't let the "he doesn't fit the mold" stuff keep you from giving a guy a shot. Kurt Warner did not have a great arm, Joe Montana did not have a great arm,Tom Brady did not have a great arm, Lenny Dawson did not have a great arm, Dan Fouts did not have a great arm, Ken Stabler did not have a big arm and Johnny Unitas did not have a big arm. I admit todays game more than ever requires a QB to make all the throws.

I do not agree with your assumption that someone with a weaker arm needs more throws to succeed than someone with a stronger arm. Accurate is accurate, I saw Lenny throw the ball well in all kinds of weather and in his heyday he could only throw the ball 55 yards and they ran much more than the Chiefs of today. I don't remember Joe Montana struggling with the winds at Candlestick. I have seen Elway not be able to throw it in the rain. There are a lot of factors that affect QBs and arm strength is not the only measuring stick. That said your points are well taken. I do not think Moore will be drafted. I have seen a lot of Mock drafts and have yet to see one that has him drafted.

Comparing Lenny, Montana, Brady, Warner and Foutes to Moore undermines your credibility.

There's a difference between not having a 'great' arm and having a legitimately bad one. A lot of the guys you listed didn't have 'great arms' (though I'd disagree with you on a couple, its ultimately irrelevant). None of those guys had 'bad' arms, not even Joe Montana. Montana's 'weak' arm has become something of a revisionist argument. Montana's arm was generally considered to be average. It was by no means Marino's, but his arm strength was seen as acceptable, just not stellar.

Moore's is nowhere close to that. Moore is Tyler Palko with a better head on his shoulders.

That won't play at this level.

Direckshun
01-17-2012, 11:26 AM
He's tiny. Will probably measure shorter than his listed height at the combine.

And lighter.

Eyeballing the guy, I'd put him at Todd Reising measurables.

That won't work in the NFL.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:31 AM
The whole argument about the defense doesn't make sense at all. The only thing the offense does that should affect the D is how many times it's going 3 and out. If the offense is having success, the D will not suffer. And in case you haven't noticed, through those final few games, the Chiefs became more of a pressure Defense. Blitzes became quite a bit more frequent. If that even matters. Which, IMO, it won't.

And I'm not saying you should abandon the running game. You seem to think a timing offense can't co-exist with a running game. I disagree.

NO had the 6th rushing attack in the league. Shit just doesn't work in the NFL.........................................................................................

Boise_Chief
01-17-2012, 11:32 AM
coming from a guy who's watched every snap of his college career, the biggest plus for moore is he's the smartest guy on the field. Easily 50 percent of his interceptions in college were on batted or tipped balls. he simply doesn't do retarded things like holding on to the ball. He is the anti cassel and a steal in the 4th. the knocks on accuracy are by people don't watch him play. More later typing on my phone sucks.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:33 AM
The whole argument about the defense doesn't make sense at all. The only thing the offense does that should affect the D is how many times it's going 3 and out. If the offense is having success, the D will not suffer. And in case you haven't noticed, through those final few games, the Chiefs became more of a pressure Defense. Blitzes became quite a bit more frequent. If that even matters. Which, IMO, it won't.

And I'm not saying you should abandon the running game. You seem to think a timing offense can't co-exist with a running game. I disagree.

If you're going to operate a timing offense and maintain a running game, you need to have the ball a lot. If you're going to have the ball a lot, you have to take it away or give up quick scores.

That's why the Saints offense works so well - they're on the field a ton. They are able to stay in rhythm and get a lot of snaps to keep their passing timing sharp while also maintaining a credible running threat. They do that by being extremely aggressive and forcing turnovers. If they don't force a turnover or sack to generate a quick punt, they'll give up a long score by getting burned deep. The Pats did the same thing this year, so did the Packers.

If you're running a 2-gap scheme like Romeo, you're simply not going to be a hyper-aggressive defense. You're going to fall into those bend but don't break shells that keep your offense off the field. They cost you a bunch of offensive snaps each game and that, in turn, diminishes your timing in passing offenses as well as the opportunities you have to run the football.

To say that your offense and defense operate independently is, to be blunt, completely asinine. It's the kind of shit that Grandpa Dick adhered to and frankly it's just not correct. Your defense needs to complement your offense for your team to truly excel. If you're going to run an aggressive offense, your defense needs to be the same animal. If you're going to run a conservative offense, well you can't have a defense getting beat deep twice /gm either trying to force a turnover (the Rams will soon learn this; Jeff Fisher with Greg Williams as his DC is a disaster waiting to happen).

If your argument is that we should try to develop a team with a super-aggressive defense and a high-volume offense like the Saints - alright, I'll listen. That said, all the teams that try that have truly historical quality quarterbacks on their teams. I'm not talking mere pro-bowlers or even All-Pros, but guys that will go down in the annals of the game as legitimate legends. Those don't exactly grow on trees.

If you build an offense to perform around Moore, you'll need to build a defense to compliment him. I don't see Crennel suddenly becoming blitz-happy (though I'd favor it).

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:36 AM
NO had the 6th rushing attack in the league. Shit just doesn't work in the NFL.........................................................................................

Volume offense that had the ball a lot because of an aggressive defense - it actually supports my point quite well.

And again, Drew Brees is a superstar. Kellen Moore is Kellen Moore. Trying to draw legitimate comparisons between the two is like comparing Thomas Jones to Emmitt Smith because he's short, slow and muscular.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:38 AM
Volume offense that had the ball a lot because of an aggressive defense - it actually supports my point quite well.

And again, Drew Brees is a superstar. Kellen Moore is Kellen Moore. Trying to draw legitimate comparisons between the two is like comparing Thomas Jones to next Emmitt Smith because he's short, slow and muscular.

Because NO's offense was only good because of the defense getting them the ball....

Plain stupidity.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:42 AM
Because NO's offense was only good because of the defense getting them the ball....

Plain stupidity.


Ah, straw men in lieu of substantive rebuttal. Eh, it's still better than your position that Kellen Moore is worthy of a 3rd round pick and can actually be a winning NFL quarterback.

If you think New Orleans defense wasn't built precisely to strengthen the effectiveness of their offense, you know precisely jack-shit about this game.

Defenses and offenses have to be complimentary. To miss that point is to have my wife's understanding of the sport.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 11:43 AM
There's a difference between not having a 'great' arm and having a legitimately bad one. A lot of the guys you listed didn't have 'great arms' (though I'd disagree with you on a couple, its ultimately irrelevant). None of those guys had 'bad' arms, not even Joe Montana. Montana's 'weak' arm has become something of a revisionist argument. Montana's arm was generally considered to be average. It was by no means Marino's, but his arm strength was seen as acceptable, just not stellar.

Moore's is nowhere close to that. Moore is Tyler Palko with a better head on his shoulders.

That won't play at this level.
Montana was rated as average arm strength with no touch. Walsh ignored his own scouts. I saw Lenny play often and he did not have a strong arm. I'll admit that some of those guys including Brady have proven to have better arms than the scouts thought. Guys can get stronger. The game has changed but there will always be guys who break the mold and get it done when their measurements say they shouldn't. Kurt Warner had incredible timing but he was slow footed and lacked arm strength. Even now when I watch Brees I see that his arm leaves a lot to be desired except the ball gets to the receiver on time. Our point of contention is that I want to turn every stone in the search for a QB and you want them to fit into " Marty's measurables." Something that Rich Gannon couldn't do.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Ah, straw men in lieu of substantive rebuttal. Eh, it's still better than your position that Kellen Moore is worthy of a 3rd round pick and can actually be a winning NFL quarterback.

If you think New Orleans defense wasn't built precisely to strengthen the effectiveness of their offense, you know precisely jack-shit about this game.

Defenses and offenses have to be complimentary. To miss that point is to have my wife's understanding of the sport.

Your argument is about as solid as swiss cheese.

whoman69
01-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Unless Pioli surprises us and can move up the draft, nobody we get this year is going to be ready to move in immediately despite our immediate need. Moore does need to work on his arm. He's not Tyler Palko as he can throw over 10 yards, but I didn't see anything to tell me he has a deep ball beyond 15 yards.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:48 AM
Montana was rated as average arm strength with no touch. Walsh ignored his own scouts. I saw Lenny play often and he did not have a strong arm. I'll admit that some of those guys including Brady have proven to have better arms than the scouts thought. Guys can get stronger. The game has changed but there will always be guys who break the mold and get it done when their measurements say they shouldn't. Kurt Warner had incredible timing but he was slow footed and lacked arm strength. Even now when I watch Brees I see that his arm leaves a lot to be desired except the ball gets to the receiver on time. Our point of contention is that I want to turn every stone in the search for a QB and you want them to fit into " Marty's measurables." Something that Rich Gannon couldn't do.

That's not entirely true either.

I'm not opposed to a shorter QB or even a QB with average arm strength. I am opposed to a QB that's both exceptionally short and has well below average arm-strength.

Honestly - what separates Kellen Moore from Chase Daniel? From Tyler Palko?

The 'intangibles'? Like I said - I simply don't care about that crap. Intangibles are a threshold level inquiry. You can't succeed in this league without them, but you can't just have an abundance of them and suddenly thrive. Having a shitload of intangibles is like having a 3rd leg. You gotta have 2 of them to run, but that 3rd isn't going to do you much good.

Boise_Chief
01-17-2012, 11:53 AM
When evaluating arm strength e pay attention to the quick slant across the middle of the red zone. he's a timing and touch passer a softer thrown ball is easier to catch. he can throw hard he just throwa catchable balls 80 percent the time. the real question is if he can throw hard consistently at the next level

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Your argument is about as solid as swiss cheese.

And you've yet to actually make one apart from blind adherance to your "Kellen Moore is an NFL quarterback because he won games in the WAC" bullshit.

Find a single quarterback to ever succeed in this league with the physical limitations that Moore has. Even Brees had a significantly stronger arm than Moore had.

And as to the rest - once again, if you don't understand the complimentary nature of offense and defense in the NFL, I'm essentially discussing football with my mother at that point. You're just completely incorrect in that regard and I can't state it any more clearly than that. It hardly even amounts to a laypersons understanding of the game.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:54 AM
Unless Pioli surprises us and can move up the draft, nobody we get this year is going to be ready to move in immediately despite our immediate need. Moore does need to work on his arm. He's not Tyler Palko as he can throw over 10 yards, but I didn't see anything to tell me he has a deep ball beyond 15 yards.

4 50 yarders in this video...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nVqsshIbFgQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 11:56 AM
On the arm strength question Kiper and McShay say his arm is good enough and that if he was 6'2 he would be a #1 pick.

Dicky McElephant
01-17-2012, 11:57 AM
Kellen Moore would succeed in a WCO......

jd1020
01-17-2012, 11:57 AM
And you've yet to actually make one apart from blind adherance to your "Kellen Moore is an NFL quarterback because he won games in the WAC" bullshit.

Find a single quarterback to ever succeed in this league with the physical limitations that Moore has. Even Brees had a significantly stronger arm than Moore had.

And as to the rest - once again, if you don't understand the complimentary nature of offense and defense in the NFL, I'm essentially discussing football with my mother at that point. You're just completely incorrect in that regard and I can't state it any more clearly than that. It hardly even amounts to a laypersons understanding of the game.

The only thing you've mentioned about Kellen Moore not succeeding in the NFL is succeeding in the NFL as we speak...........

Direckshun
01-17-2012, 12:00 PM
Isn't swiss cheese a solid?

chiefscafan
01-17-2012, 12:02 PM
well in that video he looks more accurate than cassel.

the windup to throw deep worries me a little

jd1020
01-17-2012, 12:03 PM
Isn't swiss cheese a solid?

It's about as solid as termite infested wood.

FringeNC
01-17-2012, 12:05 PM
If the guy has the arm strength of Tyler Palko, he can't succeed. End of story. The question is whether he does or not.

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 12:08 PM
would love for the guy to succeed, but he's not just short ... he's tiny.

He's built like a 14 year old kid and his arm is floppy

Even if he could pull a Joe Montana, i'm not sure even Joe Montana could survive the brutal hits of today's NFL.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 12:09 PM
would love for the guy to succeed, but he's not just short ... he's tiny.

He's built like a 14 year old kid and his arm is floppy

Even if he could pull a Joe Montana, i'm not sure even Joe Montana could survive the brutal hits of today's NFL.

You mean in these rough and tumble days when they can't be hit in the head or the legs or touched with any malice whatsoever? It's never been easier to be a QB in the NFL. (I just thought back to Ben Davidson spearing Lenny..ouch) Or were you referring to the lower your head and don't wrap tackles prevalent in today's game.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 12:11 PM
would love for the guy to succeed, but he's not just short ... he's tiny.

He's built like a 14 year old kid and his arm is floppy

Even if he could pull a Joe Montana, i'm not sure even Joe Montana could survive the brutal hits of today's NFL.

Lol. Today's NFL? The one were accidentaly slapping a QB's helmet is grounds for a 15 yard penalty? That NFL?

With the way the rules are set up these days to protect QB's I doubt he's going to take too many vicious hits.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 12:12 PM
You mean in these rough and tumble days when they can't be hit in the head or the legs or touched with any malice whatsoever? It's never been easier to be a QB in the NFL. (I just thought back to Ben Davidson spearing Lenny..ouch)

Fuck. Beat me to it.

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 12:13 PM
If the guy has the arm strength of Tyler Palko, he can't succeed. End of story. The question is whether he does or not.

His arm looks nothing like Palko. Just watching that vid vs Georgia should disprove that non sense.

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 12:13 PM
You mean in these rough and tumble days when they can't be hit in the head or the legs or touched with any malice whatsoever? It's never been easier to be a QB in the NFL.
It's true that there are more rules and less hits on the QB in the NFL nowadays but when a hit DOES happen, it's killer.

simply having a 330lb guy tackle/drive you into the ground is likely to break this guy in half.

I'm shocked that DmC isn't dead yet and he's stoutly build compared to Moore.


Have you seen him?

take a flyer on him in the 5th/7th round and hope he fills out after 3 years on your practice squad if you want. :shrug:

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 12:14 PM
You mean in these rough and tumble days when they can't be hit in the head or the legs or touched with any malice whatsoever? It's never been easier to be a QB in the NFL.

Oh c'mon - if you got smoked back in the day, it was by a guy that was either big or fast.

Guys that hit the QB today are big, fast and have enough padding on their bodies to use them like missiles. And yeah, hitting a QB not comes with its own set of 'penalty perils', but does that actually cut down on the number of hard hits? I don't think it has, it's just made consequences for them.

A player with the physical attributes of Lawrence Taylor used to be an absolute athletic freak of nature - now he's just Justin Houston. Virtually every team in the league has a guy that is both built like a truck and can run like a deer. As the league has become more passing oriented, more and more of those guys are also being trained to impale the passer.

It's easier to play WR than it ever has been and it's more productive to play QB than it ever has been, but I disagree that today's NFL quarterbacks are less susceptible to physical injury than the guys of years past. Players can't be as dirty as they used to be, but the clean hits come with more size and speed than ever before.

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 12:21 PM
To be fair, Moore played (and BEAT) some pretty damn good teams.

To be fair, in his 4 years at school he played only 4 games against legit BCS conference teams: Georgia, Virginia Tech, and Oregon (twice). You may include TCU/Nevada/etc. in certain situations if you'd like, too. Granted, against the 4 teams mentioned he won, but except for Oregon from 4 years ago all 3 teams were played Week 1 of the season, meaning they had months to prepare for the game and no one before or after (they typically have a bye week following a real game). To me that's not as impressive as, say, Matt Stafford playing against LSU, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, etc. all in the same season and, in some cases, back-to-back games or Andrew Luck this year playing against Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame in 6 consecutive weeks.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 12:24 PM
To be fair, in his 4 years at school he played only 4 games against legit BCS conference teams: Georgia, Virginia Tech, and Oregon (twice). You may include TCU/Nevada/etc. in certain situations if you'd like, too. Granted, against the 4 teams mentioned he won, but except for Oregon from 4 years ago all 3 teams were played Week 1 of the season, meaning they had months to prepare for the game and no one before or after (they typically have a bye week following a real game). To me that's not as impressive as, say, Matt Stafford playing against LSU, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, etc. all in the same season and, in some cases, back-to-back games or Andrew Luck this year playing against Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame in 6 consecutive weeks.

I guess we shouldnt have passed on Matt Stafford when we had the chance to draft him then. Wait...

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 12:26 PM
I guess we shouldnt have passed on Matt Stafford when we had the chance to draft him then. Wait...

The point is those guys are more battle-tested. You can't compare the production of Drew Brees playing in the big 10 to numbers from a guy in the MWC.

Lightrise
01-17-2012, 12:28 PM
I think the Chiefs should take Weeden from Oklahoma St and do it in the first round after trading down some to pick up a 2nd or 3rd. I know the guy is a little older but who cares really...especially when he's the perfect size, had a 72% completion rate and over 4000 yards. If we don't someone else will and the accuracy is just too good to ignore.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 12:28 PM
The point is those guys are more battle-tested. You can't compare the production of Drew Brees playing in the big 10 to numbers from a guy in the MWC.

I dont think anyone has compared numbers.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 12:29 PM
I think the Chiefs should take Weeden from Oklahoma St and do it in the first round after trading down some to pick up a 2nd or 3rd. I know the guy is a little older but who cares really...especially when he's the perfect size, had a 72% completion rate and over 4000 yards. If we don't someone else will and the accuracy is just too good to ignore.

Oh ya baby! Weeden is good for at least 3-4 years before retiring. Draft this man, and in the 1st!

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 12:31 PM
Oh c'mon - if you got smoked back in the day, it was by a guy that was either big or fast.

Guys that hit the QB today are big, fast and have enough padding on their bodies to use them like missiles. And yeah, hitting a QB not comes with its own set of 'penalty perils', but does that actually cut down on the number of hard hits? I don't think it has, it's just made consequences for them.

A player with the physical attributes of Lawrence Taylor used to be an absolute athletic freak of nature - now he's just Justin Houston. Virtually every team in the league has a guy that is both built like a truck and can run like a deer. As the league has become more passing oriented, more and more of those guys are also being trained to impale the passer.

It's easier to play WR than it ever has been and it's more productive to play QB than it ever has been, but I disagree that today's NFL quarterbacks are less susceptible to physical injury than the guys of years past. Players can't be as dirty as they used to be, but the clean hits come with more size and speed than ever before.

Are you saying there were not more QB injuries then than now? Or severity of same? I think you need to check the facts. Yes players are bigger stronger faster today and they are at the college level as well. It's a big boys game but Darren Sproles has done alright as has Jamal Charles and they take more hits than QBs. When is the last time a QBs career ended due to injury? The hit that ended Thiesman's career would be illegal today.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 12:32 PM
I think the Chiefs should take Weeden from Oklahoma St and do it in the first round after trading down some to pick up a 2nd or 3rd. I know the guy is a little older but who cares really...especially when he's the perfect size, had a 72% completion rate and over 4000 yards. If we don't someone else will and the accuracy is just too good to ignore.

No. Nobody else will.

If we want to take him in the 5th, whatever - fine. He can probably step in and start as a rookie and immediately be better than Cassel. He could be a guy that we treat as the 'stopgap' while we look for a legitimate long-term QB.

But no, nobody is going to be taking Weeden in the first round, or 2nd, or 3rd for that matter. The idea is so ludicrous as to not really merit a response.

Then again, so is Kellen Moore as an NFL quarterback yet here we are.

Dicky McElephant
01-17-2012, 12:32 PM
Oh ya baby! Weeden is good for at least 3-4 years before retiring. Draft this man, and in the 1st!

Seriously....I wouldn't put it past this FO to draft Weeden in the 2nd-3rd round range. If Cassel gets injured or plain fucking sucks....they can throw Weeden in and have him for 4-5 years.

htismaqe
01-17-2012, 12:34 PM
Oh ya baby! Weeden is good for at least 3-4 years before retiring. Draft this man, and in the 1st!

Yes! ROFL

Lzen
01-17-2012, 12:39 PM
I like Moore. He's got great touch and accuracy and he can put a little zip on it. Sure, he doesn't have an arm like say a Leinert, but I don't think that's as big a deal as some make it out to be. And look at how some of those guys turn out (Anyone remember Elvis Grbac?). He's a winner. 1st rounder? No, of course not. But a 3rd or maybe even a late 2nd is not too much to gamble, IMO.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 12:44 PM
Are you saying there were not more QB injuries then than now? Or severity of same? I think you need to check the facts. Yes players are bigger stronger faster today and they are at the college level as well. It's a big boys game but Darren Sproles has done alright as has Jamal Charles and they take more hits than QBs. When is the last time a QBs career ended due to injury? The hit that ended Thiesman's career would be illegal today.

The hit that ended Thiesman's career would've probably still happened, though. In fact I'm not sure I agree with you that it would've been illegal today, maybe a facemask. There are hits like that that go un-flagged with regularity every week. Further, it was a pretty damn flukey injury - he just twisted on it funny and it snapped. It could happen today just as easily.

Additionally, the hit that blew up Brady's knee would have very likely ended his career in Theisman's day. Likewise with Drew Brees's shoulder injury or Palmer's knee injury. Medicine has made injuries significantly more recoverable over time. If you look at the injuries that these guys are now recovering from, I'd argue that there are just as many significant injuries to quarterbacks as ever, if not more, but that quarterbacks are simply able to come back from them due to advances in surgical procedures.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 12:44 PM
To be fair, in his 4 years at school he played only 4 games against legit BCS conference teams: Georgia, Virginia Tech, and Oregon (twice). You may include TCU/Nevada/etc. in certain situations if you'd like, too. Granted, against the 4 teams mentioned he won, but except for Oregon from 4 years ago all 3 teams were played Week 1 of the season, meaning they had months to prepare for the game and no one before or after (they typically have a bye week following a real game). To me that's not as impressive as, say, Matt Stafford playing against LSU, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, etc. all in the same season and, in some cases, back-to-back games or Andrew Luck this year playing against Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame in 6 consecutive weeks.

Hmm....the Georgia game was at a neutral site... The Georgia dome. Broncos win 35-21. I guess they tricked em and Georgia wasn't ready thats why they threw for 236 yards and had a 106 yard receiving game from Charles.

This year Moore beat Arizona State 56-24 a team with a so called "NFL QB" and who trounced Missouri. You can only play who's on your schedule. If it mattered than players like Jerry Rice and Rod Smith couldn't make it in the NFL.

DaKCMan AP
01-17-2012, 12:48 PM
I dont think anyone has compared numbers.

Hmm....the Georgia game was at a neutral site... The Georgia dome Broncos win 35-21. I guess they tricked em and Georgia wasn't ready thats why they threw for 236 yards and had a 106 yard receiving game from Charles.

This year Moore beat Arizona State 56-24 a team with a so called "NFL QB" and who trounced Missouri. You can only play who's on your schedule. If it mattered than players like Jerry Rice and Rod Smith couldn't make it in the NFL.

Georgia wasn't a very good team this year. They had a weak SEC schedule. Congratulations for beating a 6-6 team who fired their head coach in a bowl game. Yay.

There are players from small schools who make it in the NFL. Not many of them are QBs. Even fewer are midget-sized QBs.

shitgoose
01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
4 50 yarders in this video...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nVqsshIbFgQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Argue all you want but I would take this kid over Cassel as our opening day starter Sept 2012

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 01:01 PM
Georgia wasn't a very good team this year. They had a weak SEC schedule. Congratulations for beating a 6-6 team who fired their head coach in a bowl game. Yay.

There are players from small schools who make it in the NFL. Not many of them are QBs. Even fewer are midget-sized QBs.

Hmm.. you say the SEC is a better conference so a 6-6 record against that competition should indicate at least a decent team. I have my doubts if Missouri will fair that well this year. If he beats an SEC team then that team sucked if he completes almost 70% of his passes in his career it's because of a weak league.(no one else did) Now we resort to name calling he is now officially a midget. I'm 5'11 I guess if your under 6' feet.....

The point is the Chiefs can get this guy probably as a UDFA. He might get drafted in the middle rounds now that so many QBs have decided not to turn pro. I mean we spent first round picks on players like Ryan Sims(can't miss) Bryan Joswieak and Tyson Jackson but everyone's QB has to be a measurables guy. I don't get it. I'll give the "midget" a chance in the middle to late rounds and see what he's got.

Frosty
01-17-2012, 01:02 PM
I am going to wait to see how the Senior Bowl and Combine goes before getting in a pissing match over Moore but my gut feeling is that he will have a long and illustrious career.

...in the CFL.

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 01:09 PM
Seriously....I wouldn't put it past this FO to draft Weeden in the 2nd-3rd round range. If Cassel gets injured or plain ****ing sucks....they can throw Weeden in and have him for 4-5 years.

you're an idiot

Detoxing
01-17-2012, 01:10 PM
Argue all you want but I would take this kid over Cassel as our opening day starter Sept 2012

I think if someone tries to make him an opening day starter, he'll be very Colt McCoy like. Not a good idea, IMO.

This is the type of QB that really needs to know where his WR's are going to be in order to have success. I think he has talent & heart, but not the kind of talent to just make plays with his arm on the fly.

If he doesn't know where to go with the ball and holds it for too long, he'll get crushed.

He'll already have a hard enough time not getting swatted at the LOS.

And if you notice, Boise ran a lot of snaps from the Shotgun/Spread. Putting him that far from the LOS makes it easier to see over his linemen, which will also be an issue in the NFL.


The size thing is really killing him here.

He has a lot to overcome.

Reerun_KC
01-17-2012, 01:13 PM
He is alot like Drew Brees...

This kids is miles ahead of Cassel... I would take him as the opening day starter in 2012. At least we would have hope for a change...

BigMeatballDave
01-17-2012, 01:15 PM
you're an idiot

Why? You know Weeden is 28, right?

SNR
01-17-2012, 01:17 PM
DJ'sLN is abusing some of you in this discussion like he's an NFL ball hawk safety waiting for Kellen Moore's slow-moving aired out deep pass to fall straight into his hands.

BigMeatballDave
01-17-2012, 01:17 PM
The size thing is really killing him here.

Drew Brees says hi.

:)

SNR
01-17-2012, 01:21 PM
And no, I'm not against taking a chance on Moore. I just don't want to spend a high draft pick on him. Anything more than a 6th would be a terrible idea. And when you're picking QBs that late in the draft, it doesn't really do you any good to create a logjam of them in training camp.

Who gets the start, guys? Stanzi's been here longer... Cassel's the "vet", but doesn't throw as accurately as the other two... Moore has more "game" than the other two, but he's having trouble picking up on the NFL's speed... uh... uh...

Lightrise
01-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Oh ya baby! Weeden is good for at least 3-4 years before retiring. Draft this man, and in the 1st!

I know it sounds desperate, but you just don't win multiple Super Bowls anymore...unless you are extremely lucky. So I think you change the way you look at the position given our circumstances...you make the move now for a couple years and you just start over again.

SNR
01-17-2012, 01:25 PM
I know it sounds desperate, but you just don't win multiple Super Bowls anymore...unless you are extremely lucky. So I think you change the way you look at the position given our circumstances...you make the move now for a couple years and you just start over again.Weeden isn't Peyton Manning/Joe Montana. He's going to need time to adjust to the pros just as much as any rookie. If you're going with him as the "future," it may take more than two or three years until he's franchise QB-good, and by that point the "future" may never come.

SNR
01-17-2012, 01:29 PM
I'd rather draft Joss Whedon than Brandon Weeden. Maybe if we gave him enough money Joss would get back to work on Firefly FOX executives be damned.

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 02:12 PM
Why? You know Weeden is 28, right?
yes, which is why pest's idea that we would draft him is just stupid.

i imagine some team will grab him in the 6th or 7th to be a career-long backup.

but hell ... tbh his career isn't even going to be long enough for that.

siberian khatru
01-17-2012, 02:13 PM
I'd rather draft Joss Whedon than Brandon Weeden. Maybe if we gave him enough money Joss would get back to work on Firefly FOX executives be damned.

LMAO

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Drew Brees says hi.

:)
Brees is more stoutly built

it's about height AND durability.


i like Moore but just don't see how you can get past the almost frail build.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:18 PM
yes, which is why pest's idea that we would draft him is just stupid.

i imagine some team will grab him in the 6th or 7th to be a career-long backup.

but hell ... tbh his career isn't even going to be long enough for that.

Pretty sure that wasn't "his idea."

"I wouldn't put it past this FO."

Comprehension is a beautiful thing.

Mr. Laz
01-17-2012, 02:24 PM
Pretty sure that wasn't "his idea."

"I wouldn't put it passed the Chiefs."

Comprehension is a beautiful thing.
he was taking a shot at the Chiefs front office ... per usual

I understood

Thus ... he's an idiot

Wanna bet?

I'll bet you and pest a 1-month self ban that the Chiefs don't draft Weeden in rds 1 thru 3.

you guys up?

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:25 PM
he was taking a shot at the Chiefs front office ... per usual

I understood

Thus ... he's an idiot

Wanna bet?

I'll bet you and pest a 1-month self ban that the Chiefs don't draft Weeden in rds 1 thru 3.

you guys up?

You are making no sense... at all.

Per usual.

WhiteWhale
01-17-2012, 02:29 PM
He's not 6-1. He's about 5-11.

So is Drew Brees.

I'm six feet tall.

Drew Brees is shorter than myself, regardless of what he's listed at.

Moore's height doesn't concern me at all.

What does concerns me is his arm strength and his durability. He just looks like a guy who's gonna get hurt in the NFL.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:31 PM
So is Drew Brees.

I'm six feet tall.

Drew Brees is shorter than myself, regardless of what he's listed at.

Moore's height doesn't concern me at all.

What does concerns me is his arm strength and his durability. He just looks like a guy who's gonna get hurt in the NFL.

Hurt like Dexter McCluster?

Does Ben Roethlisberger look like someone to get hurt as frequently as he does?

WhiteWhale
01-17-2012, 02:32 PM
Hurt like Dexter McCluster?

Does Ben Roethlisberger look like someone to get hurt as frequently as he does?

Unfortunately a starting QB gets more than 5-10 touches a game.

Ben's injurys are a direct result of his playing style. He's not like a Brees or Brady or Manning who make quick reads and fire the ball out. HE holds the ball, moves around, and does his best work after the play has collapsed. He improvises and he takes a lot of hits because of this style.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:32 PM
Unfortunately a starting QB gets more than 5-10 touches a game.

Unfortunately... a RB gets hit every time he touches the ball.

BigMeatballDave
01-17-2012, 02:33 PM
yes, which is why pest's idea that we would draft him is just stupid.

i imagine some team will grab him in the 6th or 7th to be a career-long backup.

but hell ... tbh his career isn't even going to be long enough for that.

LOL Pests post was Sooo tongue-in-cheek.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:34 PM
Ben's injurys are a direct result of his playing style. He's not like a Brees or Brady or Manning who make quick reads and fire the ball out. HE holds the ball, moves around, and does his best work after the play has collapsed. He improvises and he takes a lot of hits because of this style.

And thats how Kellen Moore plays?

WhiteWhale
01-17-2012, 02:35 PM
And thats how Kellen Moore plays?

I'm going to stop arguing with a moron, because you're dragging me down to your level in an attempt to win a non-debate.

I'm sorry you can't understand my posts. I'll stop now.

jd1020
01-17-2012, 02:36 PM
I'm going to stop arguing with a moron, because you're dragging me down to your level in an attempt to win a non-debate.

I'm sorry you can't understand my posts. I'll stop now.

Says the moron who tried to compare the number of touches a RB gets to the number of hits a QB takes.

Well... Bye...

BigMeatballDave
01-17-2012, 02:37 PM
he was taking a shot at the Chiefs front office ... per usual

I understood

Thus ... he's an idiot

Wanna bet?

I'll bet you and pest a 1-month self ban that the Chiefs don't draft Weeden in rds 1 thru 3.

you guys up?

LOL Of course he was taking a shot at the FO.

We all do. Except you.

Btw, what flavor of Kool-aid is being served this month?

OzarksChiefsFan
01-17-2012, 02:39 PM
I'd rather draft Joss Whedon than Brandon Weeden. Maybe if we gave him enough money Joss would get back to work on Firefly FOX executives be damned.

Hey I'm with ya on Firefly.

HemiEd
01-17-2012, 02:56 PM
Cassell has him on nearly every measurable.

How about between the ears?

tmw4h5
01-17-2012, 03:10 PM
I think taking Moore in the 6th or 7th is not a risk in any way.

Look at most of our 6th and 7th round picks anyways -- most of them don't even make the field. I.E. Shane O'Bannon.

When it comes to size and arm strength. Look back at the reports for Brees and Brady coming into the draft. Both "lacked" arm strength according to most scouts.

The truth of the matter is, when it comes to QBs, you never know. Especially when we're the ones making judgments.

We all love Luck. We all love RG3. Their success is no more guaranteed than Tannehill's or Foles' or Moore's.

Taking a QB like Moore late in the draft is a good idea in my opinion.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 03:28 PM
So for Moore to be successful here, we'd have to build a pass-first, timing offense around a physically limited quarterback...and pray it never rains, snows or is otherwise windy.

Have you ever been to Idaho in the Fall/Winter?

The guy is 50-3 for his college career playing in some of the coldest fucking weather outside of Antartica.

And he's only physically limited in his height/weight. He's a pretty good athlete.

vailpass
01-17-2012, 03:32 PM
Have you ever been to Idaho in the Fall/Winter?

The guy is 50-3 for his college career playing in some of the coldest ****ing weather outside of Antartica.

And he's only physically limited in his height/weight. He's a pretty good athlete.

The jv teams he beat were playing in the same temperatures he was.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 03:55 PM
Have you ever been to Idaho in the Fall/Winter?

The guy is 50-3 for his college career playing in some of the coldest fucking weather outside of Antartica.

And he's only physically limited in his height/weight. He's a pretty good athlete.

The timing doesn't have to be so precise when you're trying to find holes in the zones created by grocery-baggers and insurance salesmen.

The level of athlete is just nowhere even close; the game is exponentially faster.

The increased degree of difficulty heightens every physical shortcoming.

Time will give us the answer, but to act like the fact that he's smaller than every other quarterback in the league and would probably have the absolute worst arm strength of any starting quarterback in the league is immaterial because "gosh darnit, he tries hard!" is just being a bit of a Moore homer. Yeah, he'd be a great guy to root for, but the fact is that he simply does not stack up in any way to the starting quarterbacks in this league, let alone the elite ones.

The nearest comparison that exists for the kid truly is Doug Flutie and the dirty little secret regarding Flutie is that even when he was 'good' for those couple of years in Buffalo, he really wasn't all that good. When Doug Flutie is your most likely best case scenario, I'm not terribly interested in drafting you.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 03:58 PM
I think taking Moore in the 6th or 7th is not a risk in any way.

Look at most of our 6th and 7th round picks anyways -- most of them don't even make the field. I.E. Shane O'Bannon.

When it comes to size and arm strength. Look back at the reports for Brees and Brady coming into the draft. Both "lacked" arm strength according to most scouts.

The truth of the matter is, when it comes to QBs, you never know. Especially when we're the ones making judgments.

We all love Luck. We all love RG3. Their success is no more guaranteed than Tannehill's or Foles' or Moore's.

Taking a QB like Moore late in the draft is a good idea in my opinion.

There's no such thing as a 'risk' in round 6 or 7.

That said, if I can have Foles in the 2nd or 3rd, or Osweiler in the 4th, I'd take them ahead of Moore in a heartbeat. You're only going to carry 3 legitimate QBs into camp. They'll have Cassel because that's what Pioli does - carry Cassel's worthless ass. And there's a good chance they'll keep Stanzi as well. It's a roster issue, not a draft pick issue. Unless you would be willing to cut Stanzi or bring in Moore as the only quarterback you add to the roster this off-season, there's simply not going to be room for the guy.

No, I'm not going to cut Stanzi to make room for him and no, I'm not going to make him the QB I draft this season, even in the 7th round. At that point I'll just draft a punter or a very stupid, very athletic guy to try out on special teams. I'll use a 2nd - 4th round pick on a guy that actually has the physical tools to excel in this league. I'll be a hell of a lot more likely to fall ass-backwards into an NFL quarterback that way than I am if I take Kellen Moore and hope he becomes only the 2nd Drew Brees in NFL history.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:01 PM
The jv teams he beat were playing in the same temperatures he was.

And? DJ says the guy won't be able to play in the snow and cold of Kansas City after he spent four years compiling 50 wins (NCAA record) in Idaho, where, by September, you are already wearing a flannel long sleeve under a sweater under a down parka under three layers of bear skin.

He also hold the lowest interception ratio in the history of college football. All while playing in snow, ice and cold.

But, you know, Kansas City cold weather means that you have to be 6'9", 278 lbs. with a laser, rocket arm to throw effectively in Arrowhead.

Guy is a winner. The guy is insanely accurate. The guy makes very good decisions on the field. The guy loves football.

If you want physical measurables, go snuggle up to your Ryan Leaf/Jamarcus Russell/Jeff George/Matt Cassel plush dolls.

I'll take a guy that loves the game and has every intangible other than height all day long.

Frosty
01-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Have you ever been to Idaho in the Fall/Winter?


Have you ever been to Boise in the fall/winter? Boise has pretty mild winters. It's not like he's playing up in the panhandle.

Temperatures

Winter temperatures are typically 30-50 in the daytime and below freezing at night. There are cold periods (especially during inversions) that can drop the temperatures into the teens or below but also warm, spring-like days sometimes into the 60s.

http://www.realidaho.com/boise_area/weather/winter

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:07 PM
I'll be a hell of a lot more likely to fall ass-backwards into an NFL quarterback that way than I am if I take Kellen Moore and hope he becomes only the 2nd Drew Brees in NFL history.

http://www.6magazineonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Fran-Tarkenton.jpg

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:07 PM
I'll take a guy that loves the game and has every intangible other than height all day long.

Yeah, because guys like Colt McCoy, Chase Daniel, Charlie Ward, Josh Heupel, Ken Dorsey, Jason White, Dee Dowls, Doug Flutie and every other small quarterback with a below average arm has been exceptional at the NFL level.

You keep drafting little quarterbacks that have to play in the shotgun to see the throwing lanes then they need to wind up to throw 30 yards and put a hump on 15 yard outs. I'll go ahead and go after the guys with the physical tools to play a game where he needs to fit balls into spaces patrolled by the most insanely athletic people on the planet.

I'm betting I know which guy will get a legitimate NFL quarterback first.

vailpass
01-17-2012, 04:09 PM
And? DJ says the guy won't be able to play in the snow and cold of Kansas City after he spent four years compiling 50 wins (NCAA record) in Idaho, where, by September, you are already wearing a flannel long sleeve under a sweater under a down parka under three layers of bear skin.

He also hold the lowest interception ratio in the history of college football. All while playing in snow, ice and cold.

But, you know, Kansas City cold weather means that you have to be 6'9", 278 lbs. with a laser, rocket arm to throw effectively in Arrowhead.

Guy is a winner. The guy is insanely accurate. The guy makes very good decisions on the field. The guy loves football.

If you want physical measurables, go snuggle up to your Ryan Leaf/Jamarcus Russell/Jeff George/Matt Cassel plush dolls.

I'll take a guy that loves the game and has every intangible other than height all day long.

Intangibles are great when you play against jv college defenders. Rudy would have died on the field had they let him play in the NFL.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:09 PM
Have you ever been to Boise in the fall/winter? Boise has pretty mild winters.

Well, compared to those Kansas City winters, sure. Even Duluth is mild by comparison.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:17 PM
I'll go ahead and go after the guys with the physical tools to play a game where he needs to fit balls into spaces patrolled by the most insanely athletic people on the planet.

I'm betting I know which guy will get a legitimate NFL quarterback first.

Sure.

Tell me when the Chiefs get one of those.

If you are not dead by the time it happens.

By the way, I love those guys.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/511/084/george_display_image.jpg?1290035992
http://www.bleed-green.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/JaMarcus-Russell.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/fantasy/12/30/fantasyfb.mailbag/t1_boller_si.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.66902.1313806652!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

The "I can throw a football 80 yards on my knees club."

Love those measurables. I bet all those dudes could wing it in those frigid KC December games.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Intangibles are great when you play against jv college defenders. Rudy would have died on the field had they let him play in the NFL.

Again - they're a threshold issue.

You have to have them to be successful in this league. Having an abundance of them, however, doesn't make up for a lack of physical talent.

You know who Moore is? He's Ty Detmer.

Ty Detmer would've been the greatest of all time if he only cared as much as John Elway! Oh wait - that's not right at all. As it turns out, Ty Detmer was a small quarterback with above-average athleticism that kicked the holy shit out of inferior competition in the WAC. He ran a system designed specifically to fit his strengths and he put up video game numbers. He won the Heisman. He even took an overmatched BYU squad and led an improbable, remarkable upset victory over the heavily favored, #1 ranked Miami Hurricanes.

He was still a lousy NFL quarterback.

Somebody give me a distinction between Kellen Moore and Ty Detmer.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Somebody give me a distinction between Kellen Moore and Ty Detmer.

While you are at it, I'll take a distinction between Akili Smith and Robert Griffin.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:24 PM
Sure.

Tell me when the Chiefs get one of those.

If you are not dead by the time it happens.

By the way, I love those guys.

The "I can throw a football 80 yards on my knees club."

Love those measurables. I bet all those dudes could wing it in those frigid KC December games.

The funny thing about those guys? Even guys like Jeff George, who are poster boys for failed potential, had better NFL careers than the myriad of midget quarterbacks that can't hack it in this league.

The reason the list of failed scrawny quarterbacks with college arms that busted at the NFL level is fairly short is because teams aren't dumb enough to actually waste time, money and resources putting an effort into them.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:31 PM
While you are at it, I'll take a distinction between Akili Smith and Robert Griffin.

How about the fact that Akili Smith's college performance was about 70% as good as Robert Griffins, it was only 1 legitimately excellent season during college (after 2 in junior college), and that there were concerns regarding his makeup, coachability and intelligence well in advance of the draft? Those solid enough distinctions for you? If not, we can always go with: The Bengals, a franchise notorious for being stupid, stupidly drafted him when other teams were staying away from him due to aforementioned concerns.

So apart from not having nearly as good a college career as Griffin or nearly the personal strengths that RGIII has, not to mention not having close to the raw speed and athleticism RGIII has - there's really no similarity between the two.

Oh, that's right, gotta compare black guys to black guys.

Idiot.

Reerun_KC
01-17-2012, 04:33 PM
I love all the debate.

But WTF?

If you have a choice going into 2012 naming your starter, Moore or Cassel...

How many morons would chose Cassel?

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:41 PM
I love all the debate.

But WTF?

If you have a choice going into 2012 naming your starter, Moore or Cassel...

How many morons would chose Cassel?

Neither, 1000 times neither.

If the question is "what would you do" I'd go with Orton and take a stab at someone like Foles in the 2nd or 3rd and hope that the 2012 draft yields a better crop (it will). Actually, that's a lie, I'd make Manning a Godfather offer first and then settle for Orton if necessary. In either event, I damn sure wouldn't waste a roster spot on Moore.

If the question is "what would the Chiefs do" you know they'll go with Cassel. There's just no scenario where "Cassel or Moore and only Cassel or Moore" is a realistic scenario to ponder.

You can't honestly believe that Moore could step in next season and suddenly make this a contending team. Surely you're not going to make that leap. In which case, you're essentially suggesting that we draft him as a long-term option and there's just no way he's worth the trouble there. There are probably 10 quarterbacks in the draft that make better developmental options than him and if you're looking for a stopgap, Brandon Weeden is a better option for a couple of years.

Reerun_KC
01-17-2012, 04:45 PM
Neither, 1000 times neither.

If the question is "what would you do" I'd go with Orton and take a stab at someone like Foles in the 2nd or 3rd and hope that the 2012 draft yields a better crop (it will). Actually, that's a lie, I'd make Manning a Godfather offer first and then settle for Orton if necessary. In either event, I damn sure wouldn't waste a roster spot on Moore.

If the question is "what would the Chiefs do" you know they'll go with Cassel. There's just no scenario where "Cassel or Moore and only Cassel or Moore" is a realistic scenario to ponder.

You can't honestly believe that Moore could step in next season and suddenly make this a contending team. Surely you're not going to make that leap. In which case, you're essentially suggesting that we draft him as a long-term option and there's just no way he's worth the trouble there. There are probably 10 quarterbacks in the draft that make better developmental options than him and if you're looking for a stopgap, Brandon Weeden is a better option for a couple of years.

StopGap can go **** himself... I want nothing absolutely nothing to do with Orton...

I would take Tannehill, Moore, Foles or Cousins as my opening day starter over Cassel or Orton...

That times 1 bajillion x's 1 bajillion...

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:49 PM
StopGap can go **** himself... I want nothing absolutely nothing to do with Orton...

I would take Tannehill, Moore, Foles or Cousins as my opening day starter over Cassel or Orton...

That times 1 bajillion x's 1 bajillion...

And if you had any designs on competing next season, you'd be wrong. Then again, you've been vehemently anti-Orton from the beginning so I'm not terribly surprised by your answer.

It still seems strange to me that so many people refuse to view Orton for what he is - an average NFL quarterback that will do until someone better comes along. Folks like you that absolutely hate the guy see him as precluding a search for a legitimate game-changer for the franchise. I don't understand that.

The Chiefs are the best team in the AFC West with Orton under center next season and if he plays like he played in 2009 and 2010 in Denver, they're absolutely a team that could do some damage in the playoffs. And they could do all that while still developing Foles or a similar project for the future.

It's really not as either/or as some of you want it to be - unless the 'either' is Cassel - in which case I agree that there's really no point.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Great...Nick Foles. The guy who can't come off his first read. But he's almost as big as Cassel and almost as athletic.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 04:54 PM
Great...Nick Foles. The guy who can't come off his first read. But he's almost as big as Cassel and almost as athletic.

Great - Kellen Moore, the guy that can't throw an out route without a full windup. But he's almost as big as Ty Detmer and almost as accomplished.

Saccopoo
01-17-2012, 04:59 PM
Great - Kellen Moore, the guy that can't throw an out route without a full windup.

But, but, but...

Jimmy Clausen had to wind up to throw it 15 yards and 95% of the posters here were praying to the football Gods that he'd be our first rounder.

Frosty
01-17-2012, 05:07 PM
Well, compared to those Kansas City winters, sure. Even Duluth is mild by comparison.

You're the one claiming

Have you ever been to Idaho in the Fall/Winter?

The guy is 50-3 for his college career playing in some of the coldest ****ing weather outside of Antartica.

And he's only physically limited in his height/weight. He's a pretty good athlete.

Which is bullshit because Boise is very mild.

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 05:18 PM
But, but, but...

Jimmy Clausen had to wind up to throw it 15 yards and 95% of the posters here were praying to the football Gods that he'd be our first rounder.

One can generally discern the quality of an opponents argument by the amount of shit said opponent has to construct from whole cloth in support of same.

Dicky McElephant
01-17-2012, 05:21 PM
he was taking a shot at the Chiefs front office ... per usual

I understood

Thus ... he's an idiot

Wanna bet?

I'll bet you and pest a 1-month self ban that the Chiefs don't draft Weeden in rds 1 thru 3.

you guys up?

ROFL

munkey
01-17-2012, 05:48 PM
Again - they're a threshold issue.

You have to have them to be successful in this league. Having an abundance of them, however, doesn't make up for a lack of physical talent.

You know who Moore is? He's Ty Detmer.

Ty Detmer would've been the greatest of all time if he only cared as much as John Elway! Oh wait - that's not right at all. As it turns out, Ty Detmer was a small quarterback with above-average athleticism that kicked the holy shit out of inferior competition in the WAC. He ran a system designed specifically to fit his strengths and he put up video game numbers. He won the Heisman. He even took an overmatched BYU squad and led an improbable, remarkable upset victory over the heavily favored, #1 ranked Miami Hurricanes.

He was still a lousy NFL quarterback.

Somebody give me a distinction between Kellen Moore and Ty Detmer.

He's not Ty Detmer?

munkey
01-17-2012, 05:50 PM
For some reason Moore reminds me of a midget Elway...I don't know why...

Setsuna
01-17-2012, 05:55 PM
To be fair, in his 4 years at school he played only 4 games against legit BCS conference teams: Georgia, Virginia Tech, and Oregon (twice). You may include TCU/Nevada/etc. in certain situations if you'd like, too. Granted, against the 4 teams mentioned he won, but except for Oregon from 4 years ago all 3 teams were played Week 1 of the season, meaning they had months to prepare for the game and no one before or after (they typically have a bye week following a real game). To me that's not as impressive as, say, Matt Stafford playing against LSU, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, etc. all in the same season and, in some cases, back-to-back games or Andrew Luck this year playing against Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame in 6 consecutive weeks.

Notre Dame? Washington? Cal? Oregon State? Bahahahaha! ROFL That is your best argument for luck? Giving cupcake teams and horrible, god awful defenses. Get that weak shit out of here.

Reerun_KC
01-17-2012, 07:52 PM
And if you had any designs on competing next season, you'd be wrong. Then again, you've been vehemently anti-Orton from the beginning so I'm not terribly surprised by your answer.

It still seems strange to me that so many people refuse to view Orton for what he is - an average NFL quarterback that will do until someone better comes along. Folks like you that absolutely hate the guy see him as precluding a search for a legitimate game-changer for the franchise. I don't understand that.

The Chiefs are the best team in the AFC West with Orton under center next season and if he plays like he played in 2009 and 2010 in Denver, they're absolutely a team that could do some damage in the playoffs. And they could do all that while still developing Foles or a similar project for the future.

It's really not as either/or as some of you want it to be - unless the 'either' is Cassel - in which case I agree that there's really no point.

How long have you been a Chiefs fan?

munkey
01-17-2012, 07:57 PM
How long have you been a Chiefs fan?


To Long....that's obvious...

Reerun_KC
01-17-2012, 07:58 PM
To Long....that's obvious...

This line really made me laugh... I have heard this true fan shit for way too long..

"The Chiefs are the best team in the AFC West with Orton under center next season and if he plays like he played in 2009 and 2010 in Denver, they're absolutely a team that could do some damage in the playoffs."

DJ's left nut
01-17-2012, 11:28 PM
This line really made me laugh... I have heard this true fan shit for way too long..

"The Chiefs are the best team in the AFC West with Orton under center next season and if he plays like he played in 2009 and 2010 in Denver, they're absolutely a team that could do some damage in the playoffs."

And you mindless, parroting idealogues bore the living shit out of me. It's especially true when you come out here and absolutely prove my point.

"We need a franchise quarterback!!!!" As though we can just fucking conjure one. As though the rest of the NFL isn't desperately looking for one. Or as though simply drafting someone high and playing him is going to make him one.

If you take Nick Foles and start him, you're not winning shit next year and you're wasting a prime season from Tamba Hali, Brandon Flowers, Derrick Johnson and probably Jamaal Charles. And you're probably not going to do a lot to develop Foles either; he's just too raw at this point and he's nowhere near the raw talent that Cam Newton was. Any quarterback we're going to be in the position to acquire next year is going to learn as much from a year on the bench as he will getting his head kicked in as an NFL starter. It's a DOGSHIT draft for quarterbacks - them's the breaks, kiddos.

Yes, we absolutely need a long-term solution at QB. Here's the deal, though - the NFL isn't going to give us a waiver into the playoffs next season without one. We're going to have to play those games next year one way or the other. Why the hell shouldn't we find the best available player for next season while also developing a long term option?

Shit, let's say we draft Foles and win the lottery - low and behold he's the mythical franchise quarterback by week 4 - then play him. Or Stanzi, or whoever the hell else we may draft. But the odds STRONGLY suggest that Stanzi will never be the answer and that no matter who we draft next year, they're not likely to be ready to play either. So how 'bout this? How 'bout we actually secure a legitimate starter for next season, draft a potential long-term solution and I dunno, make the kid earn the job? That way, if he can't, we aren't pissing away an entire NFL season.

Nah, let's not plan for the most likely eventuality or anything..."ORTON SUCKS!!! WE NEED A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!!!" Yeah, it's a lot easier to just repeat yourself.

I swear, there are about 5 people on here, you foremost among them, that are completely and utterly irrational. You don't read anything, you don't engage your brain for even a modicum of a second. You read about a quarterback and start screeching "WE NEED A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!!!" as though it's some novel fucking concept that the rest of us aren't well are of. You offer no legitimate solutions other than "well draft someone" and you completely ignore the harsh reality that everyone else in this league is looking for one of those guys as well. Pure math suggests that you're going to need to try several times before you hit on one.

I get it - you're a mindless idealogue. You have one thing to say and you're going to say it over and over again, regardless of the context or possibilities. Whatever. Understand this, shithead - Absolutely nothing you're saying is new or interesting here. Everyone, save maybe a handful of devout, wants this franchise to develop a quarterback and we all know that we won't be a legitimate long-term powerhouse until we do. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that I was on the "Cassel sucks, draft a QB train" well before you were; I had this asshole pegged before the Chiefs even traded for him (by all means, look it up).

But the fact that your dumbass continues to view developing a quarterback as being mutually exclusive to having a QB that can actually win us games next year is your cross to bear, not mine. I know you like to run up your protecter of the realm flag and claim you're battling the hated true-fans when you shut your brain off and spew the same mindless horseshit - but all you're really doing is showing your ass.

lcarus
01-17-2012, 11:31 PM
Moore looks like a little bitch. Then again, so does Eli Manning. I think he's the exception though...

NJChiefsFan
01-18-2012, 12:06 AM
"We need a franchise quarterback!!!!" As though we can just ****ing conjure one. As though the rest of the NFL isn't desperately looking for one. Or as though simply drafting someone high and playing him is going to make him one.


I certainly agree that deciding Cassel or Orton isn't the answer is the easy part when compared to actually getting the QBOTF. Problem I have, is if you stick with them, or don't attempt to do something agressive in the draft, when will you ever find one. I am not against playing Orton if they draft a QB.

Thing about wasting the talent on the roster, is I think starting Orton and Cassel is doing that. Yes we may win more games during the season, but if our goal is a SB what are the odds they can actually do that. To me, they are lower than trying to find a QB and taking our chances. If we give Orton and Cassel a chance, followed by then getting a franchise QB, now you have wasted 1 or 2 years before even giving them a chance.

Now I get that Luck and RG3 isn't going to happen, and you can't just start the guy you draft for the hell of it, but you sure as hell need to start seriously looking and actually adding somebody to the roster this year. At the very least the Chiefs need to have Stanzi and another guy getting a chance to prove themselves.

I am not interested in winning 9 games and losing in the playoffs. If it means taking a risk to get a guy that could get you to a SB one day, I think you need to do it. In the long run, starting Cassel just because he gives you the better chance to win 9 or 10 games isn't the best thing for this franchise. Winning the division every few years with nothing to show for it is a bigger waste than taking a huge risk for a year or two, because atleast with the risk you have a chance to win. With Cassel or Orton, I don't think you have a chance.

Chiefnj2
01-18-2012, 06:47 AM
And you're probably not going to do a lot to develop Foles either; he's just too raw at this point and he's nowhere near the raw talent that Cam Newton was.

People need to stop making excuses. Foles is in the same situation most of the QB's that were drafted last year were. They played. They survived.

DaKCMan AP
01-18-2012, 07:00 AM
Notre Dame? Washington? Cal? Oregon State? Bahahahaha! ROFL That is your best argument for luck? Giving cupcake teams and horrible, god awful defenses. Get that weak shit out of here.

Let me try to dumb it down to your special-ed level:

Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame >>>>>>>>> Toledo, Tulsa, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State, Air Force

It wasn't to compare Luck's schedule vs an SEC schedule. But, keep arguing with yourself, moron.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-18-2012, 07:20 AM
I think discussing the QB situation would be better without all the name calling. DJ has some good points as do others. I myself would prefer Orton to Cassel and it's not even close. I agree that no matter who you get in the draft they are unlikely to help us next year unless it's Luck(not going to happen). I do not agree that the Chiefs would just bring in one rookie QB, Pioli has stated that he favors Ron Wolf's methods as far as bringing in multiple QBs. The Chiefs may bring in just one or several, the jury's out on that. Debating weather and strength of schedule is a moot point you don't have the choice as a college QB who you play or where. I would not want to spend even a 3rd on Moore since we do have some other needs. My contention is that the kid is worth a look at any point beyond the 3rd. You can debate his unknowns(pro career) but he does have a body of work. There is a bleacher reports article that makes the case that he should be #1 overall(ridiculous).

A dose of reality though people. Cassel will be the starter next year for a lot of the reasons DJ has implied. What's the alternative? This doesn't sit well with me but it is the most likely scenario barring a deal for Manning which I don't see happening. I am not looking at Moore through Rose colored glasses, I am just someone that says if you don't have a franchise QB then turn over ever rock until you get one. There are not that many of them in the league right now and about 25 teams should be looking under every rock. If your Atlanta or Baltimore you have to be having some doubts about your guy and both of them made the playoffs.

htismaqe
01-18-2012, 08:08 AM
People need to stop making excuses. Foles is in the same situation most of the QB's that were drafted last year were. They played. They survived.

Foles is not Ponder, Newton, or Dalton...he's not even STANZI.

The guy doesn't know how to read defenses or work through progressions.

Chiefnj2
01-18-2012, 08:25 AM
Foles is not Ponder, Newton, or Dalton...he's not even STANZI.

The guy doesn't know how to read defenses or work through progressions.

He beat Iowa in 2010.

htismaqe
01-18-2012, 08:26 AM
He beat Iowa in 2010.

And?

KC_Lee
01-18-2012, 08:26 AM
Foles is not Ponder, Newton, or Dalton...he's not even STANZI.

The guy doesn't know how to read defenses or work through progressions.

So you're saying he's just what the Chiefs looks for in a starting QB.

Chiefnj2
01-18-2012, 08:28 AM
And?

You said he's not even Stanzi. He beat him straight up.

htismaqe
01-18-2012, 08:29 AM
You said he's not even Stanzi. He beat him straight up.

GTFO. You're better than that.

petegz28
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
the most logical solution before the Chiefs at this point in time is to cut\trade Cassel, sign Orton, draft a QB you hope will be able to play in the next few years OR you wait until next year to get that QB if one isn't available this year.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a Cassel nut-hugger or just plain delusional. We are not drafting Luck or RGIII so that pretty much omits any possible rookie starting for us.

KC_Lee
01-18-2012, 09:20 AM
the most logical solution before the Chiefs at this point in time is to cut\trade Cassel, sign Orton, draft a QB you hope will be able to play in the next few years OR you wait until next year to get that QB if one isn't available this year.


While I don't disagree with this one point we need to think about is what are the consequences in signing Orton. Not from a cap standpoint but rather from a W/L standpoint.

If we sign Orton and he takes us to a 8, 9, 10 win season that would put us in the same situation we find ourselves now; so far down the draft order that any franchise QB we could draft would out of reach.

Thoughts?

milkman
01-18-2012, 09:25 AM
And if you had any designs on competing next season, you'd be wrong. Then again, you've been vehemently anti-Orton from the beginning so I'm not terribly surprised by your answer.

It still seems strange to me that so many people refuse to view Orton for what he is - an average NFL quarterback that will do until someone better comes along. Folks like you that absolutely hate the guy see him as precluding a search for a legitimate game-changer for the franchise. I don't understand that.

The Chiefs are the best team in the AFC West with Orton under center next season and if he plays like he played in 2009 and 2010 in Denver, they're absolutely a team that could do some damage in the playoffs. And they could do all that while still developing Foles or a similar project for the future.

It's really not as either/or as some of you want it to be - unless the 'either' is Cassel - in which case I agree that there's really no point.

In the big picture of things, from a fan's perspective, I agree with you about Orton and how he affects this team.

They would almost assuredly be the best team in the west, and with an improved O-Line, could very well do some damage in the playoffs.

The problem I have with the idea is that if the Chiefs sign him to be the starter, or at the least, to compete with Cassel, the likelyhood that the Chiefs will draft a QB to groom in the early rounds seems slim, and while Reerun is clearly a dumbass, I think that is the reason he is adamantly opposed to the idea.

In a perfect world, I'd rather sign Matt Flynn and draft a QB early.

I'd sign Orton as a second option, in lieu of Flynn.

But in either scenario, I'd draft QB.

But will the Chiefs?

milkman
01-18-2012, 09:28 AM
While I don't disagree with this one point we need to think about is what are the consequences in signing Orton. Not from a cap standpoint but rather from a W/L standpoint.

If we sign Orton and he takes us to a 8, 9, 10 win season that would put us in the same situation we find ourselves now; so far down the draft order that any franchise QB we could draft would out of reach.

Thoughts?

The QB pool in the draft is supposed to be deeper next year, and the list of team needing to draft QBs will be smaller, because of the number of teams that have drafted one in the last two years.

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 09:36 AM
People need to stop making excuses. Foles is in the same situation most of the QB's that were drafted last year were. They played. They survived.

Foles would've probably gone in the 4th or 5th in last year's draft.

People that want to draft and start a rookie QB in week 1 from this class are wildly underestimating how raw or flat out mediocre the options available in this class are.

Foles would look like a younger version of Matt Cassel if you started him right now. Hitsmaq is right - he doesn't go through progressions. He looks at his first read and then immediately becomes captain checkdown. He needs a lot of seasoning before he's ready to play and that can be done during practice quite easily. Osweiler's like a taller, even more 'lock-on' version of him. If by some chance Tannehill fell, you're talking about starting a kid that was a WR two years ago. He's extremely talented, but teams are going to have to be fairly careful developing him lest they overwhelm him quickly.

To immediately start any rookie apart from the Big 2, you'd have to dumb down the playbook to the point that you end up stunting his growth, otherwise you'd have a Gabbert situation on your hands. I'm not convinced that learning on the job from a watered down playbook is any better for a QB than learning the entire playbook would be, then getting your OTJ training with a solid foundation under you. And ultimately the former is going to cost you football games that the latter wouldn't have.

Do you think Brady or Rodgers or Brees simply have more vision than everyone else? No - of course not. They know their playbooks backwards and forwards and they know where everyone on the field is going to be at all times. If you're a guy like Cam Newton and you have virtually limitless physical skills, you can get away with playing backyard football and using your tools to score points w/ half a playbook.

It's not an 'excuse' to say that a raw-ass rookie from this class isn't going to be ready to play in week 1 of next year. It isn't an excuse to say that I'm not willing to tank 1/2 of a season where we have a chance to actually be quite good just so I can watch that rookie learn on the job, especially when I don't think you actually gain anything through doing so. It's simply smart football - you have a veteran quarterback that's ready to play and win football games for you.

In the meantime, you go after your developmental kid (again, maybe it's Foles, maybe it's someone else) and you start them after they've learned the playbook. You start them after they've adjusted to NFL style offenses/defenses. You don't just throw them to the wolves in week 1 because you don't gain anything by doing that.

BoneKrusher
01-18-2012, 09:41 AM
why cant we cut Cassel and draft the best QB available and hope we get our Franchise QB.
(if we cant trade up.)

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 09:43 AM
In the big picture of things, from a fan's perspective, I agree with you about Orton and how he affects this team.

They would almost assuredly be the best team in the west, and with an improved O-Line, could very well do some damage in the playoffs.

The problem I have with the idea is that if the Chiefs sign him to be the starter, or at the least, to compete with Cassel, the likelyhood that the Chiefs will draft a QB to groom in the early rounds seems slim, and while Reerun is clearly a dumbass, I think that is the reason he is adamantly opposed to the idea.

In a perfect world, I'd rather sign Matt Flynn and draft a QB early.

I'd sign Orton as a second option, in lieu of Flynn.

But in either scenario, I'd draft QB.

But will the Chiefs?

And that's a fair concern, a very real one in fact.

We all know what's going to happen. The Chiefs will let Orton walk, they'll roll with Cassel and Stanzi and they'll make a token attempt at adding a QB by taking someone that falls into the 4th or 5th round. Honestly, Moore isn't all that farfetched; he has just enough 'flash' that Pioli can point to him as the new 'next Tom Brady' and folks with shut up for a bit.

But talking about what the Chiefs are likely to do is just depressing. For the purposes of discussion it's pretty fair to discuss what we would do. In a world that isn't run by a ego-maniacal jackass that sees himself as inextricably linked w/ the living embodiment of quarterback mediocrity, bringing in Orton doesn't preclude attempts to upgrade.

I disagree with you on Flynn, though. I still think he's more likely to be another Cassel than another Favre. That said, if we could get him for 2 or 3 years on a reasonable deal and without giving up a pick for him (as opposed to 3 or 4 years on an absurd deal after giving up a 2nd for him), I could live with him as the immediate answer. Well, I could live with him as the immediate answer if we also brought in Philbin or his QB coach to be the new OC. That way Flynn can work in an offense that is substantially similar to what he already knows and we'll be able to get immediate dividends from him.

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 09:51 AM
While I don't disagree with this one point we need to think about is what are the consequences in signing Orton. Not from a cap standpoint but rather from a W/L standpoint.

If we sign Orton and he takes us to a 8, 9, 10 win season that would put us in the same situation we find ourselves now; so far down the draft order that any franchise QB we could draft would out of reach.

Thoughts?

There's really no such thing as tanking for draft position anymore.

Think back to the beginning of the 2011 season - would you have even come close to getting the draft order right?

Nobody had the Colts #1 and most folks saw the Rams as ascending, if not the favorites in the NFC West. I figured the Vikings would be mediocre, but not 3-wins awful, not w/ that defensive front and AP. I actually had the Browns as a darkhorse contender out of their division and who the hell saw Freeman regressing that badly? The Redskins are about where I figured they'd be. Honestly I'm shocked the Jags weren't drafting in the top 3. I figured the Panthers would be there as well, but I mis-fired badly on Newton. Rounding out the top 10 are the Phins and Bills, the Phins about where I thought they'd be and the Bills...well I figured the Bills would be picking #1 overall.

My point is that there's no such thing as 'planning' for next season's draft position; the league is just too unpredictable. How could things possibly go worse for us next year than they did this year? And somehow we still won 7 games this season.

Awful football teams don't happen by design, they happen due to some combination of catostrophic injury, bad luck and bad coaching. Well signing Orton isn't going to really change that. Orton could make the difference between us being a 7 win team and sitting at 12 again, or being a 10-11 win team, sitting at 20 and actually having a playoff chance. Or the whole damn thing could spiral apart, we win 2 games somehow and end up at the top of the draft, but if that was going to happen, it would happen with/without Orton.

You just can't plan for that kind of disaster.

milkman
01-18-2012, 10:00 AM
And that's a fair concern, a very real one in fact.

We all know what's going to happen. The Chiefs will let Orton walk, they'll roll with Cassel and Stanzi and they'll make a token attempt at adding a QB by taking someone that falls into the 4th or 5th round. Honestly, Moore isn't all that farfetched; he has just enough 'flash' that Pioli can point to him as the new 'next Tom Brady' and folks with shut up for a bit.

But talking about what the Chiefs are likely to do is just depressing. For the purposes of discussion it's pretty fair to discuss what we would do. In a world that isn't run by a ego-maniacal jackass that sees himself as inextricably linked w/ the living embodiment of quarterback mediocrity, bringing in Orton doesn't preclude attempts to upgrade.

I disagree with you on Flynn, though. I still think he's more likely to be another Cassel than another Favre. That said, if we could get him for 2 or 3 years on a reasonable deal and without giving up a pick for him (as opposed to 3 or 4 years on an absurd deal after giving up a 2nd for him), I could live with him as the immediate answer. Well, I could live with him as the immediate answer if we also brought in Philbin or his QB coach to be the new OC. That way Flynn can work in an offense that is substantially similar to what he already knows and we'll be able to get immediate dividends from him.

I don't think of Flynn as another Favre (who is one of the most overrated QBs ever, anyway).

Flynn has the chance to be either another Cassel, or another Matt Schaub.

The Texans would have been legitimate SB contenders in this post season with Schaub.

Flnn showed an ability to make reads and make plays against the Patriots last year (moreso than against the Lions this year).

His NFL sample size is closer to Schuab's was when the Texans traded for him, than Cassel's, so he is more of an unknown than Cassel was.

But Flynn will be a free agent this year, so he won't cost you anything other than a contract, and I would be drafting a QB to groom.

If Flynn works out, then you have. potentially, a guy behind him that might have some trade value in coming years.

If he doesn't, you have his replacement ready to take over in a couple years.

The difference is that Orton is known quantity who has reached his ceiling.
Flynn is an unknown who may have a higher ceiling

vailpass
01-18-2012, 10:10 AM
You said he's not even Stanzi. He beat him straight up.

LMAO

Setsuna
01-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Let me try to dumb it down to your special-ed level:

Washington, USC, Oregon State, Oregon, Cal, and Notre Dame >>>>>>>>> Toledo, Tulsa, Nevada, Fresno State, Colorado State, Air Force

It wasn't to compare Luck's schedule vs an SEC schedule. But, keep arguing with yourself, moron.

LOL dude no, just no. Those teams suck just as much compared to Stanford. Don't kid yourself. The gap between talent is the same quality. Don't be retarded, but that may be asking too much.

vailpass
01-18-2012, 10:55 AM
LOL dude no, just no. Those teams suck just as much compared to Stanford. Don't kid yourself. The gap between talent is the same quality. Don't be retarded, but that may be asking too much.

:spock:

DaKCMan AP
01-18-2012, 11:00 AM
LOL dude no, just no. Those teams suck just as much compared to Stanford. Don't kid yourself. The gap between talent is the same quality. Don't be retarded, but that may be asking too much.

:spock:

Exactly. This dude's IQ is on the order of Vince Young's and our resident idiot 50/50. USC & Oregon suck? LMAO Wish he would go troll a Jags board instead.

Lzen
01-18-2012, 11:09 AM
I'd rather draft Joss Whedon than Brandon Weeden. Maybe if we gave him enough money Joss would get back to work on Firefly FOX executives be damned.

I like this plan. :thumb:

Mr_Tomahawk
01-18-2012, 11:16 AM
Get a compensation pick for Orton (if possible).

Trade Cassel and get whatever you can.

Draft a Tannehill in the 2nd rnd.

Let Peyton mentor him for 2-3 years. :thumb:

Happy happy.

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 11:20 AM
Get a compensation pick for Orton (if possible).

Trade Cassel and get whatever you can.

Draft a Tannehill in the 2nd rnd.

Let Peyton mentor him for 2-3 years. :thumb:

Happy happy.

Seems extremely unlikely that Tannehill falls to the 2nd, let alone our pick in the 2nd.

If we want him, we probably have to take him with our 1st. Honestly, I'm warming a little to the idea, but I think he's a couple years away yet.

His tools are on par with Luck's and he's always been known as coachable. Get him in a good system for him and coach him well and he could be an Eli Manning type in a couple of years. Not a HOFer, but an annual pro-bowl caliber signal caller.

He's my 3rd favorite QB in the draft right now but I don't think we have a real shot at him.

Mr_Tomahawk
01-18-2012, 11:24 AM
Seems extremely unlikely that Tennehill falls to the 2nd, let alone our pick in the 2nd.

If we want him, we probably have to take him with our 1st. Honestly, I'm warming a little to the idea, but I think he's a couple years away yet.

His tools are on par with Luck's and he's always been known as coachable. Get him in a good system for him and coach him well and he could be an Eli Manning type in a couple of years. Not a HOFer, but an annual pro-bowl caliber signal caller.

He's my 3rd favorite QB in the draft right now but I don't think we have a real shot at him.

I just see him as one of the more intelligent QBs in the draft, that if under the said scenario...could really gain a lot and grow exponentially as a QB under the mentoring of Manning.

I understand how some are hesitant on him seeings he has been a starting QB for only 1.5 seasons...but at the same time, it is mighty impressive just how far he has come in such a short time...being projected as the 3rd best QB in the draft. Unlike the QB whom this thread was started for...

milkman
01-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Seems extremely unlikely that Tannehill falls to the 2nd, let alone our pick in the 2nd.

If we want him, we probably have to take him with our 1st. Honestly, I'm warming a little to the idea, but I think he's a couple years away yet.

His tools are on par with Luck's and he's always been known as coachable. Get him in a good system for him and coach him well and he could be an Eli Manning type in a couple of years. Not a HOFer, but an annual pro-bowl caliber signal caller.

He's my 3rd favorite QB in the draft right now but I don't think we have a real shot at him.

If we want Tannehil, we should try to trade down to the 15-18 range if we can find a partner who wants someone on the board when our pick is due.

As for Eli Manning, make no mistake, he's a future HoFer.

Frosty
01-18-2012, 12:52 PM
If we want Tannehil, we should try to trade down to the 15-18 range if we can find a partner who wants someone on the board when our pick is due.

As for Eli Manning, make no mistake, he's a future HoFer.

I'm betting that with the dearth of QB talent with all of the juniors going back to school, Tannehil makes a Ponder-like jump. He may not make it to #11, especially if Seattle picks before the Chiefs.

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 12:54 PM
If we want Tannehil, we should try to trade down to the 15-18 range if we can find a partner who wants someone on the board when our pick is due.

As for Eli Manning, make no mistake, he's a future HoFer.

By merit or name?

If merit - you really think so? At that point, don't you end up saying that about 20% of the starting QBs in the league are HOF caliber?

Eli
Ben
Rodgers
Brees
P. Manning
Brady

6 HOF signal callers starting at the same time? I'm jumping the gun a little on Rodgers, but he sure does look like an all-timer to me. And that's also assuming that a guy like Newton doesn't take the leap to elite or that Rivers never wins a SB (because his numbers will likely end up better than Eli's).

Prior to this season, nobody would have ever dreamed of putting Eli in a group with those guys, probably not even at the head of a group with Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Romo and Schaub.

One season doesn't change that, IMO. He's a very good quarterback, but unless he gets in by name recognition alone (well, and geography), I don't see his career finishing as truly HOF caliber.

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 12:55 PM
I'm betting that with the dearth of QB talent with all of the juniors going back to school, Tannehil makes a Ponder-like jump. He may not make it to #11, especially if Seattle picks before the Chiefs.

I've seen a mock that has him going to Washington at 6...

If we want him and he's there at 12, we'll have to take him then or not at all.

Like I said, I'm warming to the idea. I still wouldn't want him starting next season, though.

Frosty
01-18-2012, 01:00 PM
I've seen a mock that has him going to Washington at 6...

If we want him and he's there at 12, we'll have to take him then or not at all.

Like I said, I'm warming to the idea. I still wouldn't want him starting next season, though.

Pioli claims that he is working to the long term and not a short term fix. If true, (*snort*), then cut Cassel, sign Orton to a 2-3 year contract and draft Tannehil with the plan that he will sit for a year or two. Not as sexy as trading up for Luck or RG3 but more realistic. The Chiefs have plenty of cap space and a #12 pick won't cost that much with the new slotting system.

DaKCMan AP
01-18-2012, 01:04 PM
6 HOF signal callers starting at the same time?

Marino, Kelly, Aikman, Montana, Moon, Elway, Favre

DJ's left nut
01-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Marino, Kelly, Aikman, Montana, Moon, Elway, Favre

Fair 'nuff; but it doesn't seem like Eli Manning belongs with the other names on that list. Then again, I've always felt that Kelly was overrated and so was Aidman to a degree, so maybe that's how I'll see Eli's HOF candidacy in 15 years.

It just seems like the line between 'really good' and 'HOF caliber' has been erased to a degree. For a league who's HOF is notoriously difficult to get into, it seems like there should be more 'near misses' from the QB position than there is.

milkman
01-18-2012, 01:14 PM
By merit or name?

If merit - you really think so? At that point, don't you end up saying that about 20% of the starting QBs in the league are HOF caliber?

Eli
Ben
Rodgers
Brees
P. Manning
Brady

6 HOF signal callers starting at the same time? I'm jumping the gun a little on Rodgers, but he sure does look like an all-timer to me. And that's also assuming that a guy like Newton doesn't take the leap to elite or that Rivers never wins a SB (because his numbers will likely end up better than Eli's).

Prior to this season, nobody would have ever dreamed of putting Eli in a group with those guys, probably not even at the head of a group with Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Romo and Schaub.

One season doesn't change that, IMO. He's a very good quarterback, but unless he gets in by name recognition alone (well, and geography), I don't see his career finishing as truly HOF caliber.

I think being Peyton's little brother has actually worked to Eli's disadvantage when it comes to recognition.

Add the fact that he has played in a system that hasn't been QB friendly, and he hasn't gained the notoriety that he deserves.

He has been one of the best QBs in the league in critical situations since that '07 season.

This season, when the running game failed to produce, he stepped up and carried that team throughout the season.

If they should go on and win the SB this year, he'll be a shoo in.

If they don't, he'll still have a chance to cement his legacy over the next 5 or so years.

Yeah, he gets in on merit.

dilligaf
01-18-2012, 02:04 PM
I've watched 95% of the snaps that Moore took in college and he may be small with not much arm strength but who ever takes a chance on him will be rewarded. And I've sat in BSU stadium in the freezing cold and snow and watched Kellen play well.
I'm just soooo sick of watching this team trot out retread QB after retread QB. (Cassel, Orton, Huard, Grbac, Bono....etc.)

DaKCMan AP
01-18-2012, 02:08 PM
I've watched 95% of the snaps that Moore took in college and he may be small with not much arm strength but who ever takes a chance on him will be rewarded. And I've sat in BSU stadium in the freezing cold and snow and watched Kellen play well.
I'm just soooo sick of watching this team trot out retread QB after retread QB. (Cassel, Orton, Huard, Grbac, Bono....etc.)

So, in summary, you're a:

http://www.ideachampions.com/weblogs/Homer%20Simpson%20dumbfounded.gif

dilligaf
01-18-2012, 02:17 PM
So, in summary, you're a:

http://www.ideachampions.com/weblogs/Homer%20Simpson%20dumbfounded.gif

Yes...I can admit it.

Chief Faithful
01-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Can he play corner?

Setsuna
01-18-2012, 04:17 PM
Exactly. This dude's IQ is on the order of Vince Young's and our resident idiot 50/50. USC & Oregon suck? LMAO Wish he would go troll a Jags board instead.

DUDE WTF? WHAT TEAMS DID I NAME WHEN I SAID THEY WERE A JOKE? I NAMED WASHINGTON, OREGON STATE, ND, AND CALIFORNIA. Pay attention you ****ing idiot douche. I can't believe you just ignore details like that. You are infinitely stupid.

whoman69
01-18-2012, 06:55 PM
6 HOF signal callers starting at the same time?

1971
Tarkenton
Dawson
Griese
Namath
Staubach
Bradshaw

I think you can do it just about any year, and that was a year in which 3000 yards led the league.

Hog Farmer
01-18-2012, 06:59 PM
5'11" with a weak arm? No thanks

Wrong! 5'9" . has Lou Gherigs disease and herpes virus.

Count Alex's Losses
01-18-2012, 07:02 PM
he may be small with not much arm strength but who ever takes a chance on him will be rewarded.

What's his ceiling, Doug Flutie?

You call that a reward?

Willie Lanier
01-18-2012, 07:13 PM
Complete noodle arm

O.city
01-18-2012, 07:16 PM
I know beggars can't be choosers and we haven't had one in years, but I want someone that has everything.


I want Tom Brady, with Drew Brees accuracy and Staffords arm strength.

milkman
01-18-2012, 07:18 PM
I know beggars can't be choosers and we haven't had one in years, but I want someone that has everything.


I want Tom Brady, with Drew Brees accuracy and Staffords arm strength.

He already plays for the Pack.

dilligaf
01-18-2012, 08:42 PM
What's his ceiling, Doug Flutie?

You call that a reward?

If someone takes him in the later rounds and he ends up a backup that comes off the bench and keeps the team competitive while the starter heals...then yes. I would call that a reward. If he ends up better than some think, I would call that a bonus.

Mr_Tomahawk
01-25-2012, 11:33 AM
HELL NO.

Evan Silva @evansilva
From @caplannfl on #BoiseState QB Kellen Moore: "Reminds me of ... Tyler Palko."

DJ's left nut
01-25-2012, 11:35 AM
HELL NO.

Evan Silva @evansilva
From @caplannfl on #BoiseState QB Kellen Moore: "Reminds me of ... Tyler Palko."


Moore is Tyler Palko with a better head on his shoulders.



THAT'S why not Kellen Moore.

Great kid, smart player. Should make an excellent coach some day.

He just can't play at this level.

Detoxing
01-25-2012, 11:40 AM
THAT'S why not Kellen Moore.

Great kid, smart player. Should make an excellent coach some day.

He just can't play at this level.

At this point, there isn't a 2nd day QB worth giving two fucks about. Stanzi was a better prospect than all of these guys.

DJ's left nut
01-25-2012, 11:45 AM
At this point, there isn't a 2nd day QB worth giving two fucks about. Stanzi was a better prospect than all of these guys.

Yup, starting to look that way.

Osweiler or Foles, guys that are legitimate HR swings, might be worth exploring because they clearly have some upside that someone like Cousins or Stanzi probably doesn't. Granted, they're probably both bust picks, (especially Osweiler), but they're at least defensible in that those guys have physical tools that put them on par with the top 10 guys in the league. As such, the upside might justify the risk, especially if you're talking 4th or 5th round.

But if you're going to go after a guy like Cousins, why not just give Ricky a shot?

And why the !@#$ didn't we draft Mallet again?

saphojunkie
01-25-2012, 11:47 AM
I know beggars can't be choosers and we haven't had one in years, but I want someone that has everything.


I want Tom Brady, with Drew Brees accuracy and Staffords arm strength.

I 100% agree. Quarterback is the most important position in all of team sports. Don't you think it is worth having him be elite?

I want my QB to be the most talented player on the entire team. Wouldn't you say that Brees, Peyton, Brady, Rodgers - are all the most talented players on their teams?

That's what you should be aiming for. If I were a GM, this would be my #1 philosophy. Above "building through the draft" and finding "the right 53." Those are important, sure, but nothing compares to "finding the elite, hall of fame QB." It's instant success.

Coogs
01-25-2012, 11:47 AM
And why the !@#$ didn't we draft Mallet again?

Mallett was inactive for every game this season. :shrug:

Chiefnj2
01-25-2012, 11:48 AM
Take Weeden in the 2nd round and come to grips with the fact that you have a 5-6 year window.

OzarksChiefsFan
01-25-2012, 11:48 AM
Saw Moore standing next to that QB Wilson from Wisconsin. Moore can't be 5'11 because Wilson is 5'10 5/8.

DJ's left nut
01-25-2012, 11:51 AM
Mallett was inactive for every game this season. :shrug:

Because a team that has Tom Brady as its starter vs. a team with Matt Cassel as its starter has exactly the same needs at QB.

Besides, we had Stanzi inactive behind Tyler Palko until Cassel went down - does that mean Palko's the better guy to have on your roster than Stanzi?

Mallett would be no worse than a 2nd rounder this year and he'd probably go as the 3rd QB off the board, maybe the 4th. This QB class absolutely sucks.

Coogs
01-25-2012, 12:00 PM
Because a team that has Tom Brady as its starter vs. a team with Matt Cassel as its starter has exactly the same needs at QB.

Besides, we had Stanzi inactive behind Tyler Palko until Cassel went down - does that mean Palko's the better guy to have on your roster than Stanzi?

Mallett would be no worse than a 2nd rounder this year and he'd probably go as the 3rd QB off the board, maybe the 4th. This QB class absolutely sucks.

I was wanting Mallett last draft, so I understand what you are saying. And I also understand that Mallett looked good in one preseason game, and sort of average in a couple of others.

But I also know what I saw in our preseason games, and that was that Stanzi was our best QB on the team. Why he was not allowed to play the last couple of games in the preseason is a total mystery to me, but it is what it is.

So for right now, I am not saying Stanzi is a better QB than Mallett, but I am also not going to say Mallett is a better QB than Stanzi. They both showed promise in their limited playing opportunities last pre-season.

durtyrute
01-25-2012, 12:22 PM
Because a team that has Tom Brady as its starter vs. a team with Matt Cassel as its starter has exactly the same needs at QB.

Besides, we had Stanzi inactive behind Tyler Palko until Cassel went down - does that mean Palko's the better guy to have on your roster than Stanzi?

Mallett would be no worse than a 2nd rounder this year and he'd probably go as the 3rd QB off the board, maybe the 4th. This QB class absolutely sucks.

So let's reach for one, BECAUSE WE MUST. :evil:

dilligaf
01-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Comparing Kellen Moore with Tyler Palko is asinine. Moore is actually very accurate. Palko and Cassel are not. I still laugh my ass off when I see the clip from the Charger game this year when Cassel couldn't put his hat on his head! Although I wasn't laughing at the time.

DaKCMan AP
01-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Comparing Kellen Moore with Tyler Palko is asinine. Moore is actually very accurate. Palko and Cassel are not. I still laugh my ass off when I see the clip from the Charger game this year when Cassel couldn't put his hat on his head! Although I wasn't laughing at the time.

http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/carbide/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/BernardGoldbergBiasAmazon.jpg

Boise_Chief
01-25-2012, 01:55 PM
Kellen had a pretty bad practice yesterday. Not that you can really tell by watching it it only showed 3 or 4 passes by each of the qb's but the 2 I saw were meh. And I'm a big fan.

Frosty
01-25-2012, 01:56 PM
Comparing Kellen Moore with Tyler Palko is asinine. Moore is actually very accurate. Palko and Cassel are not. I still laugh my ass off when I see the clip from the Charger game this year when Cassel couldn't put his hat on his head! Although I wasn't laughing at the time.

They weren't comparing accuracy. They were comparing arm strength.

DaKCMan AP
01-25-2012, 02:00 PM
http://joyreactor.ru/pics/post/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0-%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%91%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5-66032.jpeg

bevischief
01-25-2012, 02:07 PM
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/1/25/2732551/tyler-palko-senior-bowl-2012

We Have A Tyler Palko Comparison At The Senior Bowl

dilligaf
01-25-2012, 02:10 PM
They weren't comparing accuracy. They were comparing arm strength.

The quote I saw said basically that Moore is Palko with a better head on his shoulders. Arm strength maybe, but Kellen is accurate.

And am I biased...yes. I think the kid could be an above average back up if not a starter.

whoman69
01-25-2012, 02:44 PM
Kellen had a pretty bad practice yesterday. Not that you can really tell by watching it it only showed 3 or 4 passes by each of the qb's but the 2 I saw were meh. And I'm a big fan.

Russell Wilson too.

http://denver.sbnation.com/boise-st-broncos/2012/1/25/2732783/2012-senior-bowl-kellen-moore-russell-wilson-boise-state-underwhelm-day-2

BigChiefFan
01-25-2012, 03:12 PM
Kellen Moore's arm strength is a concern. Add that to his size and he'll have teams passing on him for a few rounds.