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View Full Version : Obama Pipeline done, now on to closing generators


HonestChieffan
01-19-2012, 06:12 PM
Up Next… Obama’s New Energy Regulations Will Put 32 Coal Plants Out of Business
Posted by Jim Hoft on Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 10:39 PM


The Obama Administration killed the Keystone Pipeline project today.

Up next is the coal industry.
New EPA regulations will force 32 coal plants to close their doors putting hundreds of Americans out of work.

The latest move by the EPA will force new regulations on 26 states. The new rules will kill thousands of jobs, cost billions of dollars and increase electricity rates for every family.

New EPA rules will force Western coal-fired power plants to install haze-reducing pollution-control equipment at a cost of $1.6 billion a year. Pictured is the Dave Johnston Power Plant in Glenrock, Wyoming. (IBD)

The AP reported:

An Associated Press analysis has found that more than 32 mostly coal-fired power plants in a dozen states will be forced to close because of the new, more stringent regulations. Another 36 plants are at risk of closing.

No lights will go dark. But the Environmental Protection Agency has estimated that 14.7 gigawatts — enough power for more than 11 million households — will be retired from the power grid in the 2014-15 period when the rules take effect. One rule curbs air pollution in states downwind from dirty power plants. Another sets first standards for mercury and other toxic pollutants from smokestacks.

The effect is greatest in the Midwest and in coal belt states such as Virginia and West Virginia, where dozens of units are likely to shut down.

Take Giles County, where American Electric Power’s Glen Lyn plant is located, and where 44 jobs are on the line.

County Administrator Chris McKlarney worries about the $600,000 tax-revenue hit his $40 million budget will take. But that’s just one concern involving a plant and workers whose community contribution is “hard to quantify.”

“They’ve done so much donation-wise for local causes … And they’re really good people working there,” he said. “They’re coaches in Little League sports, involved in the Parent-Teacher Organization — you lose those kind of people, it’s tough.”

And they’re good jobs — stable, well-paying positions with good benefits in places where such things can be hard to find.

The Obama Administration’s new energy regulations will shut down about 8% of all U.S. generating capacity or the equivalent of wiping out all power generation for Florida and Mississippi.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/01/up-next-obamas-new-energy-regulations-will-put-32-coal-plants-out-of-business/

mikey23545
01-19-2012, 06:20 PM
"No lights will go dark. But the Environmental Protection Agency has estimated that 14.7 gigawatts — enough power for more than 11 million households — will be retired from the power grid in the 2014-15 period when the rules take effect. One rule curbs air pollution in states downwind from dirty power plants. Another sets first standards for mercury and other toxic pollutants from smokestacks."


Hmmm....after shithead's 2nd run at the White House, and just in time to ruin someone's next term...

Nice timing, Hussein.

boogblaster
01-19-2012, 06:31 PM
green is the magic word ......

Discuss Thrower
01-19-2012, 06:49 PM
green is the magic word ......

Green energy to put some green in Obama's backers' pockets while the rest of America goes dark.

Guru
01-19-2012, 06:57 PM
Great, more money from my wallet coming up. Won't be long before it truly is the rich and the poor with no middle class at all. for King for country.

Discuss Thrower
01-19-2012, 07:02 PM
Couple this with the inevitable rise in food prices as diesel fuel gets more expensive.

Honestly ObamaFan, what do you say to all this? Orange I await a gloriously written HuffPo article explaining that everything is fine and it's all somehow the fault of GWB and the Rich.

HonestChieffan
01-19-2012, 07:07 PM
Its ok. Only impacts those midwestern people who cling to their guns and bibles.

Baby Lee
01-19-2012, 07:33 PM
Saw this the other day

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/my-30-million-jobs-tour-e_b_1213285.html

Let's begin with energy. When it comes to stationary power generation efficiency, we're at 34%, according to the U.S. Department of Energy Information Administration. That means two out of every three units of electricity we use are tossed out, with nothing to show for it. Generating efficiency gains will take work, and thankfully, we have plenty of people that are unemployed. The problem here is that there is no investment in the sector - t's a desert landscape desperate to be irrigated by a flow of capital. Remember, capital isn't just the central banks and governments. It's private businesses, personal accounts and most importantly, all human potential. The river exists -- its massive, some might say even infinite. It is surging with potential if we only release it. Right now, as I document in my book Greedy Bastards, this flow is going into the pockets of status quo interests because of rigged tax, trade, and banking policies. But there's no reason it couldn't instead go towards bumping up our energy efficiency to 60%, 70% or even 90%.

Now I don't know specifically he is referencing, but given the cited percentage I'm willing to bet he is misreading the import of the efficiency of the Thermodynamic Cycles used to generate power in fuel powered plants. Those are pretty hard limits demanded by the laws of thermodynamics. They could go up to 40% or so with hyperoptimization, but will never get to 60, 70, 90.
If he DOES know what the fuck he's talking about, then he's using society's lack of knowledge to mask the fact that he's proposing the elimination of ALL fossil, and probably nuclear, fueled power generation.
This is, first off, wildly unrealistic. Further, it attempts to mask the inefficiency of renewable resources. Solar utilizes somewhere in the range of 7% of the energy that it receives, similar for wind [don't have the figures in my head at the moment], but it's 'FREE!!' Only that inefficiency means instead of 1 solar panel generating 100% of useable power, you have to install 20, talking up 20x the space, generating 5%.

orange
01-19-2012, 07:59 PM
Orange I await

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/GlobalREPowerCapacity-exHydro-Eng.png/300px-GlobalREPowerCapacity-exHydro-Eng.png

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 08:07 PM
Saw this the other day

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/my-30-million-jobs-tour-e_b_1213285.html



Now I don't know specifically he is referencing, but given the cited percentage I'm willing to bet he is misreading the import of the efficiency of the Thermodynamic Cycles used to generate power in fuel powered plants. Those are pretty hard limits demanded by the laws of thermodynamics. They could go up to 40% or so with hyperoptimization, but will never get to 60, 70, 90.
If he DOES know what the **** he's talking about, then he's using society's lack of knowledge to mask the fact that he's proposing the elimination of ALL fossil, and probably nuclear, fueled power generation.
This is, first off, wildly unrealistic. Further, it attempts to mask the inefficiency of renewable resources. Solar utilizes somewhere in the range of 7% of the energy that it receives, similar for wind [don't have the figures in my head at the moment], but it's 'FREE!!' Only that inefficiency means instead of 1 solar panel generating 100% of useable power, you have to install 20, talking up 20x the space, generating 5%.You are exactly correct.

To have constant uninterupted power there is a price to pay in efficiency. That's just the way it works.

Wind and solar can be used to slow down the need for more fossil or nuclear generation, but never replace it.

If one doesn't mind not being able to vote out a mod, or watch the super bowl, or keep their beer cold in the fridge on demand green power is the ticket for them.

suzzer99
01-19-2012, 08:08 PM
About this point a non-idiot comes into the thread with the actual numbers which show whatever freeper blog HCF got this from to be completely full of shit from about a dozen different angles. None of the idiots care. Hating Obama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts. Thread slowly dies. Repeat ad infinitum several times a day.

HonestChieffan
01-19-2012, 08:10 PM
About this point a non-idiot comes into the thread with the actual numbers which show whatever freeper blog HCF got this from to be completely full of shit. None of the idiots care. Hating Obama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts. Thread slowly dies. Repeat ad infinitum several times a day.


Facts piss off Obots.

suzzer99
01-19-2012, 08:11 PM
You ignore more facts a day on this forum than most people take shits in a lifetime.

Coal generators bitch about environmental regulations they've known about and have been using every loophole to avoid since Nixon signed the Clean Air Act. Shocking!

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 08:16 PM
Coal generators bitch about environmental regulations they've known about and have been using every loophole to avoid since Nixon signed the Clean Air Act. Shocking!Link?

HonestChieffan
01-19-2012, 08:18 PM
You ignore more facts a day on this forum than most people take shits in a lifetime.

Coal generators bitch about environmental regulations they've known about and have been using every loophole to avoid since Nixon signed the Clean Air Act. Shocking!

Actually I don't. I ignore foolish out bursts and silly comments that are made to avoid facts. Take you for example. Do you have some information that will shed light on the OP and dispute what was said? I doubt it. The facts are inconvenient so you just go off like some uncontrolled squirrel.

orange
01-19-2012, 08:31 PM
Link?

On July 6, 2011, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a rule that protects the health of millions of Americans by helping states reduce air pollution and attain the 1997 ozone and fine particle and 2006 fine particle National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS). This rule, known as the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR), requires states to significantly improve air quality by reducing power plant emissions that cross state lines and contribute to ozone and fine particle pollution in other states.

http://www.epa.gov/airtransport/basic.html

The new regulations, which draw heavily on Bush-era rules thrown out by the federal courts in 2008, will cost utility companies an estimated $2.4 billion in pollution-related upgrades. The industry, along with many Republican lawmakers, isn't happy about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/epa-unveils-new-standards-coal-power-plants_n_892486.html

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 08:43 PM
On July 6, 2011, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a rule that protects the health of millions of Americans by helping states reduce air pollution and attain the 1997 ozone and fine particle and 2006 fine particle National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS). This rule, known as the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR), requires states to significantly improve air quality by reducing power plant emissions that cross state lines and contribute to ozone and fine particle pollution in other states.

http://www.epa.gov/airtransport/basic.html

The new regulations, which draw heavily on Bush-era rules thrown out by the federal courts in 2008, will cost utility companies an estimated $2.4 billion in pollution-related upgrades. The industry, along with many Republican lawmakers, isn't happy about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/epa-unveils-new-standards-coal-power-plants_n_892486.htmlThey're not happy? Oh the bastards.

Now find one where coal generator's are using loopholes to avoid rules in place.

Then figure those megawatts into all coal generator's megawatts that are in compliance. Give us the actual numbers and not just sound bites.

orange
01-19-2012, 08:51 PM
They're not happy? Oh the bastards.

Now find one where coal generator's are using loopholes to avoid rules in place.

Offhand, I would say the "Bush-era rules thrown out by the federal courts in 2008" would pretty well fit that definition. It was just a forum comment by suzzer99, not a position paper.

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Offhand, I would say the "Bush-era rules thrown out by the federal courts in 2008" would pretty well fit that definition. It was just a forum comment by suzzer99, not a position paper.It was a broad general comment you tried to back up but couldn't.

orange
01-19-2012, 09:24 PM
It was a broad general comment you tried to back up but ...

30 seconds later:

American Lung Association (http://www.lungusa.org/healthy-air/outdoor/resources/toxic-air-report/)

“It’s time that we end the ‘toxic loophole’ that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants. The American public has waited long enough—more than two decades.” – Charles D. Connor, president and CEO, American Lung Association

Florida Public Interest Research Group (https://pincdn.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/piSN4KKWrv2gyZi2K92-8A/fineprint.pdf)

The Fine Print
How a Loophole in the ‘Clear Skies’
Bill Lets Power Plants Off the Hook
for Their Mercury Emissions

All I choose to bother with to blow your claim away. GOOGLE for yourself.

headsnap
01-19-2012, 09:28 PM
No coal?!?!



where are we going to get the volts to power the green cars?

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 09:36 PM
30 seconds later:

American Lung Association (http://www.lungusa.org/healthy-air/outdoor/resources/toxic-air-report/)

“It’s time that we end the ‘toxic loophole’ that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants. The American public has waited long enough—more than two decades.” – Charles D. Connor, president and CEO, American Lung Association

Florida Public Interest Research Group (https://pincdn.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/piSN4KKWrv2gyZi2K92-8A/fineprint.pdf)

The Fine Print
How a Loophole in the ‘Clear Skies’
Bill Lets Power Plants Off the Hook
for Their Mercury Emissions

All I choose to bother with to blow your claim away. GOOGLE for yourself.:LOL:

mlyonsd
01-19-2012, 09:37 PM
No coal?!?!



where are we going to get the volts to power the green cars?When they come with propellers I'll start paying attention.

suzzer99
01-21-2012, 10:59 AM
They're not happy? Oh the bastards.

Now find one where coal generator's are using loopholes to avoid rules in place.


The Clean Air Act had a provision that any new coal plants had to have advanced scrubbers, while old plants could continue to be grandfathered in. So when a plant began to reach the end of its lifecycle, instead of replacing it, power companies proceeded to "repair" it piece by piece until they were essentially an entirely new plant.

I saw this on a documentary - Frontline I think. It also talked about how coal companies have had to move entire towns due to too many kids getting asthma (it was cheaper to move the town than clean up the air).

If you admit that it will actually mean something I will go to the work to find you links on this. But I'm not going to go through all that trouble if you're just going to wave it off anyway.

suzzer99
01-21-2012, 11:02 AM
About this point a non-idiot comes into the thread with the actual numbers which show whatever freeper blog HCF got this from to be completely full of shit from about a dozen different angles. None of the idiots care. Hating Obama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts. Thread slowly dies. Repeat ad infinitum several times a day.

On July 6, 2011, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a rule that protects the health of millions of Americans by helping states reduce air pollution and attain the 1997 ozone and fine particle and 2006 fine particle National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS). This rule, known as the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule (CSAPR), requires states to significantly improve air quality by reducing power plant emissions that cross state lines and contribute to ozone and fine particle pollution in other states.

http://www.epa.gov/airtransport/basic.html

The new regulations, which draw heavily on Bush-era rules thrown out by the federal courts in 2008, will cost utility companies an estimated $2.4 billion in pollution-related upgrades. The industry, along with many Republican lawmakers, isn't happy about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/07/epa-unveils-new-standards-coal-power-plants_n_892486.html

Actually I don't. I ignore foolish out bursts and silly comments that are made to avoid facts. Take you for example. Do you have some information that will shed light on the OP and dispute what was said? I doubt it. The facts are inconvenient so you just go off like some uncontrolled squirrel.

30 seconds later:

American Lung Association (http://www.lungusa.org/healthy-air/outdoor/resources/toxic-air-report/)

“It’s time that we end the ‘toxic loophole’ that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants. The American public has waited long enough—more than two decades.” – Charles D. Connor, president and CEO, American Lung Association

Florida Public Interest Research Group (https://pincdn.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/piSN4KKWrv2gyZi2K92-8A/fineprint.pdf)

The Fine Print
How a Loophole in the ‘Clear Skies’
Bill Lets Power Plants Off the Hook
for Their Mercury Emissions

All I choose to bother with to blow your claim away. GOOGLE for yourself.

:LOL:

And there you have it. Facts presented. Facts completely ignored. On to the next drudge topic...

HonestChieffan
01-21-2012, 11:16 AM
toxic loophole? thats a fact? You do know the difference between a fact and some scary bullshit words handed to you to repeat over and over? Wait, no, you wouldn't.

vailpass
01-21-2012, 12:47 PM
About this point a non-idiot comes into the thread with the actual numbers which show whatever freeper blog HCF got this from to be completely full of shit from about a dozen different angles. None of the idiots care. Hating Obama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts. Thread slowly dies. Repeat ad infinitum several times a day.

You are the kind of guy people walk up and punch on general principals.

suzzer99
01-21-2012, 01:18 PM
You are the kind of guy that anyone would be completely justified in punching because you're a racist douchebag waste of skin.

HonestChieffan
01-21-2012, 03:34 PM
You are the kind of guy that anyone would be completely justified in punching because you're a racist douchebag waste of skin.

No political commentary, regardless of subject, is complete without a link to racism. Chapter 2, Election tactics 2012 Obama

suzzer99
01-21-2012, 05:44 PM
Have no problem accepting and going to bat for racists in your midst. Republican politics.

stevieray
01-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Have no problem accepting and going to bat for racists in your midst. Republican politics.

becoming what you hate to keep your own hatred alive. suzzer politics.