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KILLER_CLOWN
01-23-2012, 12:14 AM
There Are 1.4 MILLION Gang Members In The United States And More Pour Into The Country Every Single Day

A vast army of heavily armed criminals has embedded itself in every major city in the United States. In fact, nearly every community in America is now affected by these thugs. Drugs, theft and brutal violence are all part of the every day lifestyle of the members of this army. They aggressively recruit our young people and floods of illegal immigrants are joining their ranks. Once civil unrest erupts in America, they will go on a crime spree that will be absolutely unprecedented and they will burn large areas of some U.S. cities to the ground. So who am I talking about? I am talking about the rapidly growing gangs that are terrorizing cities all over the nation. The FBI tells us that there are now 1.4 million gang members involved in the 33,000 different gangs that are active inside the United States. The number of gang members in the U.S. has increased by 40 percent since 2009. Just think about that. That is absolutely astounding. Just since 2009, the number of gang members has increased by 40 percent. The FBI says that 48 percent of all violent crime in this country can be directly traced to gangs and that this is a national crisis that is progressively getting worse. Unfortunately, the federal government refuses to secure our borders and is allowing new waves of illegal immigrants to enter the United States every single day. A substantial number of those illegal immigrants end up involved in these gangs. Yet the federal government just stands by and allows it to keep happening. One day, the foolishness of this policy will be evident to all.

In many areas of America today, families live behind windows that have bars on them and they won't ever go out at night because it is just too dangerous. There are some communities that have pretty much been entirely taken over by the gangs, but instead of addressing the problem the federal government continues to spend a massive amount of resources checking out what might be in our underwear at U.S. airports.

Meanwhile, criminal gangs are thriving. They are becoming incredibly powerful and increasingly sophisticated. The following is from an FBI press release....

Gangs are increasingly engaging in non-traditional gang-related crime such as alien smuggling, human trafficking, and prostitution. Gangs are also engaging in white-collar crime such as counterfeiting, identity theft, and mortgage fraud.

You can find much more background information about gang activity in the United States from the FBI right here.

You have probably heard of some of the largest of these gangs.

For example, the 18th Street Gang is the largest gang in the state of California. It is said that they have 15,000 members in California alone, and that on average they are responsible for at least one major crime in Los Angeles County every single day.

It has been reported that police in Los Angeles are extremely hesitant to ever venture into the areas most heavily controlled by the 18th Street gang. They are absolutely brutal and they do not back down to anyone. The following is what Wikipedia has to say about the 18th Street Gang....

A US Justice Department report from 2009 estimates that the 18th Street gang has a membership of some 30,000 to 50,000 with 80% of them being illegal aliens from Mexico and Central America and is active in 44 cities in 20 states. Its main source of income is street-level distribution of cocaine and marijuana and, to a lesser extent, heroin and methamphetamine. Gang members also commit assault, auto theft, carjacking, drive-by shootings, extortion, homicide, identification fraud, and robbery.

Another very prominent gang that you may have heard of is the Latin Kings. It is reported that they have 18,000 members in the city of Chicago alone. They are believed to be the largest Hispanic gang in the entire nation.

One of the gangs that has law enforcement authorities the most concerned is MS-13. There are chapters of MS-13 in 42 states now, and if you cross a member of MS-13 there is a good chance that you will lose a limb or be hacked to death with a machete.

This tough economic environment has made it even easier for these gangs to recruit new members. Today, there are way too many young people sitting around with nothing to do.

Back in the year 2000, more than 50 percent of all Americans teens had a job. This past summer, only 29.6% of all American teens had a job.

When you have lots of teens and young adults sitting around with nothing but time on their hands, bad things are prone to happen.

As the family unit continues to decline in America, young people are looking for a sense of belonging. For many youths, a gang becomes a new "family" for them.

But unfortunately, these new "families" do not exactly teach "family values". Instead, they teach our young people about how to be brutal and violent.

And we are seeing evidence of this out on the streets every single day. For example, a group of 6 young thugs recently attacked a 64-year-old Vietnam veteran in Philadelphia and beat him up so badly that he almost died....

Kate Schaefer, the victimís wife, told Eyewitness News, 'They just smashed every bone in his face. I canít tell you the words. I guess I was just happy that he was alive.'

During 2011, we saw a large increase in "group crime" behavior. Some of the incidents have been absolutely horrific. For example, the following is how one local ABC News affiliate described the "flash mob" attacks that took place at the Wisconsin state fair earlier this year....

Milwaukee police said that around 11:10 p.m., squads were sent to the area for reports of battery, fighting and property damage being caused by an unruly crowd of "hundreds" of people. One officer described it as a "mob beating."

Police said the group of young people attacked fair goers who were leaving the fair grounds. Police said that some victims were attacked while walking. They said others were pulled out of cars and off of motorcycles before being beaten.

Can you imagine taking your kids to the state fair and having them witness that?

But this is just the beginning.

These gangs are becoming very organized and they are becoming very heavily armed.

The FBI says that rifles, machine guns, grenades and even artillery rounds are being found in the possession of gangs more frequently than ever.

Some examples of this were recently posted on military.com. These gangs seem to have a particular affection for AK-47s....

In late July, 27 AK-47s were stolen from a Fort Irwin warehouse, officials said. Those close to the case, who would speak only under the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the subject, said investigators believe gang members were involved in the theft.

Sadly, that same article noted that members of the U.S. military have even been arrested for trying to sell weapons to these gangs....

In November 2010, three former Marines were arrested in Los Angeles for selling assault weapons to members of the violent street gang, Florencia 13, according to the NGIC report. That same month, a Navy Seal from San Diego and two others were arrested in Colorado for smuggling about 18 military-issued machine guns from Iraq and Afghanistan to be sold and shipped to buyers in Mexico.

Those that want to steal guns are becoming increasingly bold. For example, 21 machine guns were stolen a while back right out of an LAPD training facility.

Down in Miami, thieves have become so bold that they have actually been breaking into parked police cruisers and stealing guns and ammo out of them.

When people are stealing guns directly from the police, that is a sign that it is very late in the game.

Our politicians spend so much time talking about the violence in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the truth is that the area right along the U.S./Mexico border is far more dangerous.

Just check out the following information from CNSNews.com....

According to the Mexican government, from January through September 2011 2,276 deaths were recorded in the Mexican state of Chihuahua, which borders Texas and New Mexico.

A Nov. 2011 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report states that over nearly the same period Ė January through October 2011 Ė 2,177 civilians were killed in Afghanistan, where a U.S.-led war against the Taliban is underway. It did not provide a breakdown of responsibility for that period, but said that in 2010, 75 percent of civilian deaths were attributed to the Taliban and other ďanti-government elements.Ē

Per capita, a person was at least nine times more likely to be murdered in Chihuahua last year than in Afghanistan.

Many of the areas along our border with Mexico are open war zones.

But do we hear about this much in the mainstream media?

Of course not.

Just across the U.S. border lies the city of Juarez, Mexico. Juarez is considered to be one of the most dangerous cities on the entire planet because of the brutal drug war being waged there. In fact, Juarez is the murder capital of the western hemisphere.

But most Americans have never even heard of Juarez.

Complete and total chaos reigns in vast areas of northern Mexico, and yet most Americans don't even realize that there is a problem.

Overall, more than 35,000 people have been killed since the Mexican government declared war on the drug cartels back in 2006.

You would think that would warrant some significant news coverage.

But no, the mainstream media can't talk much about that because then the people might actually start demanding that we secure our borders.

Amazingly, instead of securing our borders the Obama administration has been busy sending guns down to the drug cartels in Mexico.

That is what this whole "Fast and Furious" scandal is all about. As I have written about previously, ATF agents purposely allowed thousands of guns to be sold to individuals that they believed would get them into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

But so far, nobody in the Obama administration has been held accountable for this.

During 2009 and 2010, 70 percent of the 30,000 guns that were recovered by authorities in Mexico were determined to have come from inside the United States.

That is a major problem.

These Mexican drug cartels and the gangs that work with them have become very heavily armed and they have become very bold.

It has been reported that Mexican drug cartels are now openly conducting military operations inside the United States. Scouts for the cartels maintain strategic lookout bases in the hills of southern Arizona, and the federal government has even put up signs that warn tourists to say out of certain areas. The cartels very much try to avoid any confrontations with our border patrol or with our local police, but once they are approached they are not afraid to open fire.

One very frustrated border patrol agent told Fox News the following about what is going on in his area....

"To say that this area is out of control is an understatement."

So how in the world can the federal government allow this to go on?

Well, a big part of it is that Barack Obama does not want to do anything that could scare away his Hispanic voters.

In fact, he is doing just about everything that he can to portray himself as "Hispanic-friendly".

A few months ago, I wrote about how the Obama administration has announced that there will now be a case-by-case review of all deportation cases involving illegal immigrants. Those involving "criminals" will be prioritized and almost all the rest will be thrown out.

Yes, you read that correctly.

If you are an illegal immigrant and you have not been convicted of a crime that means that you almost certainly get to stay in this country.

So that is basically a big green light for even larger waves of illegal immigrants to enter this country.

That means that the ranks of the gangs will swell even more.

The chaotic drug war that is going on in northern Mexico has spread into many areas of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. With each passing day, the gangs that are embedded in all of our major cities are getting stronger. They are a ticking time bomb that eventually will go off.

One day, when mass civil unrest erupts in the United States, the gangs will have a field day. Given the opportunity, most gangs will gleefully indulge in brutal violence, looting, arson, rape and mindless property destruction.

Sadly, this all could have been avoided.

Instead of strip-searching old women at airports, this is what we should have been dedicating our law enforcement resources to.

Instead of spending billions of dollars spying on the American people, the federal government should have spent billions of dollars on securing our borders.

Unfortunately, we made the wrong choices as a nation and so now we are going to pay the price.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/1-4-million-gang-members-and-more-pour-into-the-united-states-every-single-day

Ace Gunner
01-23-2012, 09:51 AM
When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle -- Edmund Burke

donkhater
01-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Is anyone really surprised? Much of law enforcment/anti-terrorism efforts by the US only address the symptoms of illegal activities. Lawmakers absolutely refuse to address the motivation or cause behind such acts. Doing so would unviel the absolute ineptitude of our 'leaders'.

The drug-related gang proliferation in the US is the result of illegal classification of drugs. They can't go to law enforcement or the courts to settle arguments, so they do it themselves. Everything has evolved from that. Until people come to this realization, not much will get resolved.

Our anti-terrorism efforts are centered around 'protecting our freedom', but from whom? Terrorists? Haven't the 'solutions' that have been put into place inhibit our freedoms? Until people stop characterizing attempts to understand the motive behind terrorist efforts as appeasement, but rather as a basis to establish a more rational foreign policy, no improvement will be made on that front either.

BucEyedPea
01-23-2012, 11:00 AM
During this time of terrorism and war I don't understand our immigration policies at all. There should be a freeze with some exceptions for checked personnel to fill needed jobs only.

Bump
01-23-2012, 11:35 AM
Gang violence will be a factor in every city in America with a pop of least 2000 within 10 years. Every gang member has TONS of kids, which WE pay for, all of their kids are raised to be gang members/leaders. The rate of which they are coming into the country and reproducing is fucking scary. There is absolutely nothing done to stop it or even slow it down and nothing will be done because it's too touchy of a subject, you people are probably offended by what I just said, for example.

Pants
01-23-2012, 11:36 AM
During this time of terrorism and war I don't understand our immigration policies at all. There should be a freeze with some exceptions for checked personnel to fill needed jobs only.

More government involvement? Say it ain't so, BEP!

Pants
01-23-2012, 11:36 AM
Gang violence will be a factor in every city in America with a pop of least 2000 within 10 years. Every gang member has TONS of kids, which WE pay for, all of their kids are raised to be gang members/leaders. The rate of which they are coming into the country and reproducing is ****ing scary. There is absolutely nothing done to stop it or even slow it down and nothing will be done because it's too touchy of a subject, you people are probably offended by what I just said, for example.

What do you propose? Specifics, please.

Bump
01-23-2012, 11:42 AM
What do you propose? Specifics, please.

they have intel of where the gang leaders and members are located. Go in there and get them and deport them. Allow our police officers to use weapons that are at least equal to a gangs arsenal and throw out the court system, because it is a joke now. Do this for all gangs who have ever killed an innocent. The constitution means nothing now with the corporate corruption that is so prevalent in our country today, do something that would benefit the every day people that have been tossed aside as meaningless.

KC native
01-23-2012, 12:36 PM
they have intel of where the gang leaders and members are located. Go in there and get them and deport them. Allow our police officers to use weapons that are at least equal to a gangs arsenal and throw out the court system, because it is a joke now. Do this for all gangs who have ever killed an innocent. The constitution means nothing now with the corporate corruption that is so prevalent in our country today, do something that would benefit the every day people that have been tossed aside as meaningless.

you're a fucking moron

scho63
01-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Here is a radical idea: being in a gang or associating with a gang is ILLEGAL.

Gangs only exist for criminal enterprises and violence. There is no single "gang" that can held up as a model for group behavior.

If you are in a gang or part of a gang, you can be arrested just by association. Maybe our jail population would explode but I would rather keep these animals caged up then roaming around our country destroying our way of life and freedoms.

These gangs used to just fight one another, now they all just indiscriminately kill and cause mayhem.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Pull the TSA out of the airports and have them strip searching gang bangers coming across the border.

Chiefspants
01-23-2012, 05:15 PM
Here is a radical idea: being in a gang or associating with a gang is ILLEGAL.

Gangs only exist for criminal enterprises and violence. There is no single "gang" that can held up as a model for group behavior.

If you are in a gang or part of a gang, you can be arrested just by association. Maybe our jail population would explode but I would rather keep these animals caged up then roaming around our country destroying our way of life and freedoms.

These gangs used to just fight one another, now they all just indiscriminately kill and cause mayhem.

Then what constitutes a "gang?" Is it a group of people disrupting social order? Okay, but under that definition, does that include protestors as well?

We have to be careful about the type of laws we pass in our nation, for instance, could the type of bill your proposing also have potential ramifications for any group of individuals who are assembling for a certain cause?

scho63
01-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Then what constitutes a "gang?" Is it a group of people disrupting social order? Okay, but under that definition, does that include protestors as well?

We have to be careful about the type of laws we pass in our nation, for instance, could the type of bill your proposing also have potential ramifications for any group of individuals who are assembling for a certain cause?

I agree, it is not an easy answer and I hate the 50,000 new laws passed in the last few years by all the grubby politicians. It can easily be abused.

Occupy Wall Street is not a gang. A gang is an enterprise that has been created to do unlawful acts. Once a gang such as Latin Kings have been designated as a criminal enterprise like organized crime, you arrest the members of the enterprise via RICO statues

banyon
01-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Then what constitutes a "gang?" Is it a group of people disrupting social order? Okay, but under that definition, does that include protestors as well?

We have to be careful about the type of laws we pass in our nation, for instance, could the type of bill your proposing also have potential ramifications for any group of individuals who are assembling for a certain cause?

It is a group of three or more persons with criminal activity as one of their primary purposes who have a common unifying name, color, or signal.

This is a definition used in many states which I don't believe has ever resulted in misidentifying a bunch of Cub Scouts as gang members.

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:00 PM
they have intel of where the gang leaders and members are located. Go in there and get them and deport them. Allow our police officers to use weapons that are at least equal to a gangs arsenal and throw out the court system, because it is a joke now. Do this for all gangs who have ever killed an innocent. The constitution means nothing now with the corporate corruption that is so prevalent in our country today, do something that would benefit the every day people that have been tossed aside as meaningless.

This is pretty much what is happening right now in Mexico. Law enforcement is not a viable option. A military treatment is the only thing that works.

Our court system can still be effective though because it and law enforcement are not so thoroughly corrupt as they are south of the border.

We can't deport most American gang members though, because most of them (the Hispanic ones, anyway) are 2nd or 3rd generation and are citizens.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:01 PM
]It is a group of three or more persons with criminal activity as one of their primary purposes who have a common unifying name[/B], color, or signal.

This is a definition used in many states which I don't believe has ever resulted in misidentifying a bunch of Cub Scouts as gang members.

So BOTH political parties should be outlawed?

On a slightly more serious note.. this DEFINITELY makes the OCCUPY movement a gang.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:04 PM
This is pretty much what is happening right now in Mexico. Law enforcement is not a viable option. A military treatment is the only thing that works.

Our court system can still be effective though because it and law enforcement are not so thoroughly corrupt as they are south of the border.

We can't deport most American gang members though, because most of them (the Hispanic ones, anyway) are 2nd or 3rd generation and are citizens.

I doubt that is completely true. There are a TON of illegals that are gang members on the border. (at least in Texas there are)

I do NOT however support a military solution. Unlike Obama, I take Posse Comitatus very seriously.

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:05 PM
Is anyone really surprised? Much of law enforcment/anti-terrorism efforts by the US only address the symptoms of illegal activities. Lawmakers absolutely refuse to address the motivation or cause behind such acts. Doing so would unviel the absolute ineptitude of our 'leaders'.

The drug-related gang proliferation in the US is the result of illegal classification of drugs. They can't go to law enforcement or the courts to settle arguments, so they do it themselves. Everything has evolved from that. Until people come to this realization, not much will get resolved.

Our anti-terrorism efforts are centered around 'protecting our freedom', but from whom? Terrorists? Haven't the 'solutions' that have been put into place inhibit our freedoms? Until people stop characterizing attempts to understand the motive behind terrorist efforts as appeasement, but rather as a basis to establish a more rational foreign policy, no improvement will be made on that front either.

Many of our gangs locally only do drug dealing as a side enterprise. They are mostly interested in making money cheap and easy. So, burglary, robbery, weapons, some kidnapping, false documents. Also, they really enjoy engaging their rivals violently. Just like the cartels have branched out into human trafficking, if there's money in it, they'll be there.

Gangs haven't gone away in Los Angeles have they? This is despite marijuana (de facto) legalization. In fact, many of the gangs target the legal dispensaries as burglary targets. This is becoming so bad of a problem, that many insurance companies are refusing to insure them against property loss.

MJ might take a little money out of the hands of the cartels for a while, but unless you are going to legalize everything, then they will look to make their money.

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:07 PM
So BOTH political parties should be outlawed?

On a slightly more serious note.. this DEFINITELY makes the OCCUPY movement a gang.

Their primary purpose is political speech which is still not a criminal activity in this country.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:07 PM
The infiltration of foreign gangs is definitely a problem... but not nearly as dire as this scare tactic of an article makes out. Your average law abiding citizen is NOT be terrorized by roving gangs of Panch Villa wannabees. Should that become the case, I have no doubt that the public itself would start to take action. We are NOT a nation of complete pussies like most countries. (although we are certainly slinking our way in that direction)

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Their primary purpose is political speech which is still not a criminal activity in this country.

yes yes, my post was still partly tongue in cheek.. but I am very wary of sweeping definitions and laws being applied based on them.

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:19 PM
The infiltration of foreign gangs is definitely a problem... but not nearly as dire as this scare tactic of an article makes out. Your average law abiding citizen is NOT be terrorized by roving gangs of Panch Villa wannabees. Should that become the case, I have no doubt that the public itself would start to take action. We are NOT a nation of complete pussies like most countries. (although we are certainly slinking our way in that direction)

You are closer to it than me, but I don't know what you've read about El Paso and Juarez, or Laredo and Nuevo Laredo. Things are getting bad, and that is starting to come across the border.

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:21 PM
yes yes, my post was still partly tongue in cheek.. but I am very wary of sweeping definitions and laws being applied based on them.

Fair enough. I don't know of any cases of those been applied unfairly. I think it is always healthy to be skeptical of legal generalizations.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:27 PM
You are closer to it than me, but I don't know what you've read about El Paso and Juarez, or Laredo and Nuevo Laredo. Things are getting bad, and that is starting to come across the border.

It's definitely bad... but it depends on perspective. A great deal of the worst stuff is gang on gang. That doesn't make it ok, but you don't have the average people in El Paso hiding inside their homes for fear of drive-bys.

There are two full solutions that come to mind. 1)completely fix the border(good luck on that) 2)fix the sources of the problem.. most of which exist in Mexico (even less likely)

Unfortunately, it's a byproduct of sharing a massive border with a corrupt country that at times borders on anarchy. (actually Mexico isn't as bad as that, just parts of it are.)

banyon
01-23-2012, 08:32 PM
It's definitely bad... but it depends on perspective. A great deal of the worst stuff is gang on gang. That doesn't make it ok, but you don't have the average people in El Paso hiding inside their homes for fear of drive-bys.

I think the most terrifying thing is more the kidnappings for ransom which is becoming widespread south of the border and is starting to pop up here.

There are two full solutions that come to mind. 1)completely fix the border(good luck on that) 2)fix the sources of the problem.. most of which exist in Mexico (even less likely)

Unfortunately, it's a byproduct of sharing a massive border with a corrupt country that at times borders on anarchy. (actually Mexico isn't as bad as that, just parts of it are.)

Agree wholeheartedly, particularly with the bolded section.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 08:33 PM
It's definitely bad... but it depends on perspective. A great deal of the worst stuff is gang on gang. That doesn't make it ok, but you don't have the average people in El Paso hiding inside their homes for fear of drive-bys.

There are two full solutions that come to mind. 1)completely fix the border(good luck on that) 2)fix the sources of the problem.. most of which exist in Mexico (even less likely)

Unfortunately, it's a byproduct of sharing a massive border with a corrupt country that at times borders on anarchy. (actually Mexico isn't as bad as that, just parts of it are.)

I guess my short term solution would be to continue to enforce the law as it is now except increase "retribution" enforcement for when a gang threatens the average Juan Gama AND allow the general populace to be as armed and protected as they feel the need to be. There is little to no incentive for gangs to go on random(meaning not gang on gang) killing sprees as it is... and a well trained and armed populace makes that even less likely.

KC native
01-23-2012, 10:26 PM
You are closer to it than me, but I don't know what you've read about El Paso and Juarez, or Laredo and Nuevo Laredo. Things are getting bad, and that is starting to come across the border.

What's going on state side is no where close to what's happening in Mexico. The cartels aren't stupid. They're judicious about violence on this side. They've also learned there are limits to their power up here. They tried hard to push in on the street gangs and mid level guys in DFW. The gangs and other guys told them to eat shit because this isn't Mexico.

What's going on between the cartels and the gangs up here is more of a cooperation. The cartels don't really like the US bangers because they take advantage of the illegals all the time so they deal with them out of necessity.

The kidnappings are isolated events on this side. That being said, all of them are bad but until we address the cause of the cartel's existence (drug prohibition) things aren't going to change.

KC native
01-23-2012, 10:27 PM
Oh, and this article is complete and total fear mongering bullshit.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 11:40 PM
Oh, and this article is complete and total fear mongering bullshit.

Very much so.

AustinChief
01-23-2012, 11:48 PM
That being said, all of them are bad but until we address the cause of the cartel's existence (drug prohibition) things aren't going to change.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Let's say we push a magic button and all drugs are legal or simply don't exist. The gangs aren't going to go away. As a matter of fact they likely will get even worse.

Here is my thought process. The reason gangs deal in the drug trade is because it is easy easy easy money compared to a real education/job or even most other illegal activities. Without drugs... do we honestly think these people will suddenly go back to school and look for work? No, they are going to look for the next source of easy money.

To address the problem I think you need to first and foremost address the culture that created these people. Then you need to make it easier to work a real job then to do anything illegal.

The idea that gangs won't exist or will even be less of a problem at all if we legalize drugs... is based on faulty logic. Although that doesn't mean there aren't other valid reasons to legalize drugs.

KC native
01-24-2012, 11:28 AM
I'm not sure I agree with this. Let's say we push a magic button and all drugs are legal or simply don't exist. The gangs aren't going to go away. As a matter of fact they likely will get even worse.

Here is my thought process. The reason gangs deal in the drug trade is because it is easy easy easy money compared to a real education/job or even most other illegal activities. Without drugs... do we honestly think these people will suddenly go back to school and look for work? No, they are going to look for the next source of easy money.

To address the problem I think you need to first and foremost address the culture that created these people. Then you need to make it easier to work a real job then to do anything illegal.

The idea that gangs won't exist or will even be less of a problem at all if we legalize drugs... is based on faulty logic. Although that doesn't mean there aren't other valid reasons to legalize drugs.

Of course gangs aren't going to disappear if we legalize drugs. Gangs have been around for a lot longer than the drug war. If drugs were legalized and went through proper business channels then the gangs would have their biggest profit center wiped out by legitimate businesses.

We would more than likely see the cartels flip right into the legal side but with competition, purity standards, and the ability for legal redress the violence would dramatically decrease if not be eliminated all together.

ChiefFripp
01-24-2012, 11:41 AM
The truth is America is too sensitive when it comes to profiling people because they are afraid of being labeled as racist. The majority of these gang members are coming in from Mexico and South America, yet defending our borders is considered Right Wing or racially insensitive.

KC native
01-24-2012, 11:49 AM
The truth is America is too sensitive when it comes to profiling people because they are afraid of being labeled as racist. The majority of these gang members are coming in from Mexico and South America, yet defending our borders is considered Right Wing or racially insensitive.

The vast majority of Hispanics in this county or coming to this country aren't gang members.

gang members are pretty easy to identify. there is no need for racial profiling to identify them.

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 11:52 AM
The vast majority of Hispanics in this county or coming to this country aren't gang members.

gang members are pretty easy to identify. there is no need for racial profiling to identify them.


How would you Identify them?

KC native
01-24-2012, 11:57 AM
How would you Identify them?

You are still fucking dumb as a rock. How about the measures we currently use like tattoos, flying colors, when they break the law, or when they actually say they are gang members?

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 12:44 PM
You are still ****ing dumb as a rock. How about the measures we currently use like tattoos, flying colors, when they break the law, or when they actually say they are gang members?

How is that any different than anyone else identifying gangs. You think you are on to something unique? Lots of people have tats though that are not in a gang. Lots of law breakers are not in gangs. I'd say you need some work before you leave the mailroom job and become a cop.

vailpass
01-24-2012, 12:48 PM
Oh, and this article is complete and total fear mongering bullshit.

Funny how you always seem to side with the criminal element.

KC native
01-24-2012, 01:23 PM
How is that any different than anyone else identifying gangs. You think you are on to something unique? Lots of people have tats though that are not in a gang. Lots of law breakers are not in gangs. I'd say you need some work before you leave the mailroom job and become a cop.

:facepalm: The post I was replying to specifically mentioned racial profiling dumbass.

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 01:28 PM
:facepalm: The post I was replying to specifically mentioned racial profiling dumbass.


well try to answer the question. You are a sensitive little fellow. How would you profile a gang? Or how would you use common characteristics to ID them?

Nzoner
01-24-2012, 01:38 PM
I've always heard that movies are just a preview of future things to come.

The Warriors 1979

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bTUrWYv2vtU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

KC native
01-24-2012, 01:42 PM
well try to answer the question. You are a sensitive little fellow. How would you profile a gang? Or how would you use common characteristics to ID them?

Leave the riddler routine to donger. You're too fucking dense to pull it off.

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 01:47 PM
Leave the riddler routine to donger. You're too ****ing dense to pull it off.


So you are having a difficult time describing Mexican Gangs without referring to Mexicans, Black fans without mentioning black, white gangs without mentioning white. Thats cool. Just be man enough and smart enough to recognize when Law Enforcement is targeting gang violence they likely look in the Hispanic neighborhoods not upper middle-class Johnson County. Or Black Neighbor hoods, or mixed ethnic neighborhoods with a pattern of gang violence. Then they focus on the specific gangs. And a high percentage are Hispanic. And many are illegals. You may not like that but thats ok, facts and reality seldom seems to enter your little world.

AustinChief
01-24-2012, 04:21 PM
We would more than likely see the cartels flip right into the legal side but with competition, purity standards, and the ability for legal redress the violence would dramatically decrease if not be eliminated all together.

Ok, here you are just dead wrong. The gangs couldn't compete against legitimate businesses. Period. End of Story. Legal drugs would take away the "easy" part of the easy money equation. If these people wanted to get an education and work hard for a living... they wouldn't be in this business to start with.

They would instead turn to the next easy money target. Prostitution, gambling, etc... Make all of those legal and they will just go straight to larceny.

Yes you will have SOME of the larger cartels that may try to convert their production facilities over, but that does absolutely nothing to address the issues we are talking about.

RedNeckRaider
01-24-2012, 04:34 PM
I've always heard that movies are just a preview of future things to come.

The Warriors 1979

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bTUrWYv2vtU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I watched that movie at the drive in on the first date with the girl who later became the mother of my 2 kids~

AustinChief
01-24-2012, 04:35 PM
So, I've been thinking about this... and there are some interesting things to address here.

Let's imagine that no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of uneducated people who also have a poor work ethic and will choose easy illegal money over legitimate means. (I don't believe this has to be the case, but it certainly is so now)

Ok, so assuming that is the case... IS it not better to provide relatively unintrusive, low violence "crimes" as a way for these people to make money as opposed to much more intrusive things such as home burglary or bank robbery?

As far as the drug trade (or prostitution or gambling) go.. they have little to no effect on my life except in the use of my tax dollars to "enforce" laws against them. BUT if all of those people were instead breaking into cars and homes.. I would surely see more of it hitting home on a daily basis.

The Machiavellian in me wonders if there is a way to completely subsidize the incarceration/enforcement side of things and keep it all illegal as a means to an end. A perverted version of bread and circuses, if you will.

(also I would heavily reduce the laws on drug use... you need those people out of jail and buying .. to keep the system in place and also reduce overall taxpayer costs)

Radar Chief
01-24-2012, 04:38 PM
I watched that movie at the drive in on the first date with the girl who later became the mother of my 2 kids~

I remember when that show came out, it was banned in several cities because it was inciting gang violence. I was a bit young to be driving at the time so I didnít see it at the drive-in though, gramps. ;)

RedNeckRaider
01-24-2012, 04:41 PM
I remember when that show came out, it was banned in several cities because it was inciting gang violence. I was a bit young to be driving at the time so I didnít see it at the drive-in though, gramps. ;)

I am an old timer :LOL: I was 18 years old when that show came out~

KC native
01-24-2012, 04:43 PM
Ok, here you are just dead wrong. The gangs couldn't compete against legitimate businesses. Period. End of Story. Legal drugs would take away the "easy" part of the easy money equation. If these people wanted to get an education and work hard for a living... they wouldn't be in this business to start with.

They would instead turn to the next easy money target. Prostitution, gambling, etc... Make all of those legal and they will just go straight to larceny.

Yes you will have SOME of the larger cartels that may try to convert their production facilities over, but that does absolutely nothing to address the issues we are talking about.

I'm not disputing that gangs will move on towards other illegal activities however their size, influence, and ability to buy weapons woul be grealy diminished. Drugs are by far the most lucrative game they have going. Remove that and the gang's ability to continue as they have goes away. Membership would also fall as membership wouldn't be nearly as attractive if there was less easy money to go around.

Also, the cartels (there really only 3 that are large enough to do this; gulf, sinaloa, and zetas) are in a good position to flip to legal business. They already have the production and distribution routes mapped out as well as an understanding who buys what, how much, and what each market likes. That knowledge is invaluable wrt the illicit drug trade. I could see a partnership between the cartels and a legit business easily if legality wasn't an issue.

KC native
01-24-2012, 04:50 PM
So, I've been thinking about this... and there are some interesting things to address here.

Let's imagine that no matter what we do, there will always be a certain percentage of uneducated people who also have a poor work ethic and will choose easy illegal money over legitimate means. (I don't believe this has to be the case, but it certainly is so now)

Ok, so assuming that is the case... IS it not better to provide relatively unintrusive, low violence "crimes" as a way for these people to make money as opposed to much more intrusive things such as home burglary or bank robbery?

As far as the drug trade (or prostitution or gambling) go.. they have little to no effect on my life except in the use of my tax dollars to "enforce" laws against them. BUT if all of those people were instead breaking into cars and homes.. I would surely see more of it hitting home on a daily basis.

The Machiavellian in me wonders if there is a way to completely subsidize the incarceration/enforcement side of things and keep it all illegal as a means to an end. A perverted version of bread and circuses, if you will.

(also I would heavily reduce the laws on drug use... you need those people out of jail and buying .. to keep the system in place and also reduce overall taxpayer costs)

I will reply to this more later, but I do take issue with your characterization of drug money as easy money. First off, you have to worry about thieves and being willing to take them out since the police won't go get your stolen drugs back. Second, if you aren't a member of a gang with a defined terroritory, then you have to worry about whose toes you are stepping on. Third is actually finding someone to sell your illegal product to.

AustinChief
01-24-2012, 04:55 PM
I will reply to this more later, but I do take issue with your characterization of drug money as easy money. First off, you have to worry about thieves and being willing to take them out since the police won't go get your stolen drugs back. Second, if you aren't a member of a gang with a defined terroritory, then you have to worry about whose toes you are stepping on. Third is actually finding someone to sell your illegal product to.

Oh it's not FREE money by any means... but it is INCREDIBLY easy compared to actually working for a living. Yes there are much higher risks but you are talking about a class of people with little to nothing to lose.

BIG_DADDY
01-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Warriors, come out an playyyyeeeayyyyyy

KC native
01-24-2012, 04:57 PM
So you are having a difficult time describing Mexican Gangs without referring to Mexicans, Black fans without mentioning black, white gangs without mentioning white. Thats cool. Just be man enough and smart enough to recognize when Law Enforcement is targeting gang violence they likely look in the Hispanic neighborhoods not upper middle-class Johnson County. Or Black Neighbor hoods, or mixed ethnic neighborhoods with a pattern of gang violence. Then they focus on the specific gangs. And a high percentage are Hispanic. And many are illegals. You may not like that but thats ok, facts and reality seldom seems to enter your little world.

You really are a fucking dumbass. His post was about racially profiling all Hispanics.

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 04:58 PM
I will reply to this more later, but I do take issue with your characterization of drug money as easy money. First off, you have to worry about thieves and being willing to take them out since the police won't go get your stolen drugs back. Second, if you aren't a member of a gang with a defined terroritory, then you have to worry about whose toes you are stepping on. Third is actually finding someone to sell your illegal product to.

So what. You want people to respect these low lives because pushing drugs to school kids is hard work? You are a warped sob if there ever was one.

RedNeckRaider
01-24-2012, 04:58 PM
I will reply to this more later, but I do take issue with your characterization of drug money as easy money. First off, you have to worry about thieves and being willing to take them out since the police won't go get your stolen drugs back. Second, if you aren't a member of a gang with a defined terroritory, then you have to worry about whose toes you are stepping on. Third is actually finding someone to sell your illegal product to.

If a shitbag high school drop out can make a grand a week doing it, then yeah it is easy money~

AustinChief
01-24-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm not disputing that gangs will move on towards other illegal activities however their size, influence, and ability to buy weapons woul be grealy diminished. Drugs are by far the most lucrative game they have going. Remove that and the gang's ability to continue as they have goes away. Membership would also fall as membership wouldn't be nearly as attractive if there was less easy money to go around.


Yes, I agree that drugs are so lucrative it makes the overall criminal enterprise easy to grow and expand. BUT I am not concerned with the cartels as much as I am concerned with their foot soldiers. Let's assume you are right... the gangs would lose members if drugs were legal. Those members they lose aren't suddenly going to go straight and get jobs. Instead they will start jacking stereos and holding up liquor stores.

Legalizing drugs doesn't eliminate the REASONS these people aren't working real jobs. (I say this yet I am not against drug legalization from an idealistic standpoint) If you want to eliminate the problem, you have to address WHY these people chose this lifestyle. Some have few other options, some have no work ethic. The average suburban kid doesn't turn to a life of crime because he values his life and freedom more. He has SOMETHING TO LOSE.

As long as you have certain entrenched social conditions you will always have motivation for criminal "easy money" here in the US.

HonestChieffan
01-24-2012, 05:04 PM
You really are a ****ing dumbass. His post was about racially profiling all Hispanics.

Thats a good start from the sound of things

AustinChief
01-24-2012, 05:09 PM
So, I'm back to what I originally said about this topic. You need to make crime that effects ME (by "me" I mean any law abiding citizen) harder work with even higher risks. The best answer to this is a well trained and armed populace.

AND you need to try to address the underlying reasons (poverty, lack of education, lack of work ethic) driving these people to see "easy money" in the first place.

Finally, for the percentage that will always go this route... we may want to keep drugs, gambling, prostitution (assorted vices) illegal enough to serve as an outlet for that element of society.

I'm not certain on the logistics of that last point but it is intriguing to me at the least.

KC native
01-24-2012, 11:21 PM
Yes, I agree that drugs are so lucrative it makes the overall criminal enterprise easy to grow and expand. BUT I am not concerned with the cartels as much as I am concerned with their foot soldiers. Let's assume you are right... the gangs would lose members if drugs were legal. Those members they lose aren't suddenly going to go straight and get jobs. Instead they will start jacking stereos and holding up liquor stores.

Legalizing drugs doesn't eliminate the REASONS these people aren't working real jobs. (I say this yet I am not against drug legalization from an idealistic standpoint) If you want to eliminate the problem, you have to address WHY these people chose this lifestyle. Some have few other options, some have no work ethic. The average suburban kid doesn't turn to a life of crime because he values his life and freedom more. He has SOMETHING TO LOSE.

As long as you have certain entrenched social conditions you will always have motivation for criminal "easy money" here in the US.

I think you have a mistaken idea of the composition of the illicit drug market. I've known just as many white suburban dealers as ones in the hood. If we consider even small drug dealing a crime, then a good portion of your average suburban kids are living a life of crime. They just happen to live in an area where enforcement isn't nearly as intense. I remember a certain statistic (not verbatim) that said for every black person in the drug trade there were something like 3 white people. Incarceration rates between those populations are radically different though.

I may be off base here, but I think you also assume that all dealers make good money from dealing. That is far from the case. Most small time dealers don't make jack shit (when you factor in busts, it's quite negative for more than a few). The only people really making decent money off dealing are people that most of the population would consider mid level dealers.

All of that being said, there is a certain % of the population who are going to commit crime regardless of just about anything. You will never eliminate it. Leaving something illegal as an excuse to jail that element is unnecessary and catches a lot of people who would have never been considered criminals under rational approach to drugs. Our current laws will ensare those that break the law. Just think about how much actual crime the police could catch if they weren't looking for drugs.

KC native
01-24-2012, 11:23 PM
Oh it's not FREE money by any means... but it is INCREDIBLY easy compared to actually working for a living. Yes there are much higher risks but you are talking about a class of people with little to nothing to lose.

I think our definitions of easy are quite different. IMO it's much easier to get up and go to a job where you're not worried about your safety or if you'll be in jail.

ThatRaceCardGuy
01-25-2012, 07:43 AM
Here is a radical idea: being in a gang or associating with a gang is ILLEGAL.

Gangs only exist for criminal enterprises and violence. There is no single "gang" that can held up as a model for group behavior.

If you are in a gang or part of a gang, you can be arrested just by association. Maybe our jail population would explode but I would rather keep these animals caged up then roaming around our country destroying our way of life and freedoms.

These gangs used to just fight one another, now they all just indiscriminately kill and cause mayhem.

It's already illegal. Gang injections make it illegal . Motor cycle gangs, racist gangs, and street gangs have all been hit with them .

ThatRaceCardGuy
01-25-2012, 07:45 AM
I think you have a mistaken idea of the composition of the illicit drug market. I've known just as many white suburban dealers as ones in the hood. If we consider even small drug dealing a crime, then a good portion of your average suburban kids are living a life of crime. They just happen to live in an area where enforcement isn't nearly as intense. I remember a certain statistic (not verbatim) that said for every black person in the drug trade there were something like 3 white people. Incarceration rates between those populations are radically different though.

I may be off base here, but I think you also assume that all dealers make good money from dealing. That is far from the case. Most small time dealers don't make jack shit (when you factor in busts, it's quite negative for more than a few). The only people really making decent money off dealing are people that most of the population would consider mid level dealers.

All of that being said, there is a certain % of the population who are going to commit crime regardless of just about anything. You will never eliminate it. Leaving something illegal as an excuse to jail that element is unnecessary and catches a lot of people who would have never been considered criminals under rational approach to drugs. Our current laws will ensare those that break the law. Just think about how much actual crime the police could catch if they weren't looking for drugs.

Exactly.