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NewChief
01-30-2012, 07:10 AM
I wonder how large of an issue Romney's mormonism will become as this thing starts to heat up. It's hypocritical, to me, to make it an issue from the Left or the Religious Right. The Left preaches tolerance for a diversity of views, so they should let it be. The Religious Right ascribes to some pretty "kooky" ideas as well that they don't want held against them. Anyway, it seems to be the elephant in the room at this point in time.

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/mitt_and_the_white_horse_prophecy/


SUNDAY, JAN 29, 2012 8:00 AM CENTRAL STANDARD TIME
Mitt and the White Horse Prophecy
A close look at the roots of Romney's -- and the Mormon church's -- political ambitions
BY SALLY DENTON

The White Horse Prophecy foresaw Mormons in politics. (Credit: iStockphoto/66North/Reuters)

TOPICS:MITT ROMNEY, , EDITOR'S PICKS
When Mitt Romney received his patriarchal blessing as a Michigan teenager, he was told that the Lord expected great things from him. All young Mormon men — the “worthy males” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it is officially known — receive such a blessing as they embark on their requisite journeys as religious missionaries. But at 19 years of age, the youngest son of the most prominent Mormon in American politics — a seventh-generation direct descendant of one of the faith’s founding 12 apostles—Mitt Romney had been singled out as a destined leader.

From the time of his birth — March 13, 1947 — through adolescence and into manhood, the meshing of religion and politics was paramount in Mitt Romney’s life. Called “my miracle baby” by his mother, who had been told by her physician that it was impossible for her to bear a fourth child, Romney was christened Willard Mitt Romney in honor of close family friend and one of the richest Mormons in history, J. Willard Marriott.

In 1962, when Mitt — as they decided to call him — was a sophomore in high school, his father, George W. Romney, was elected governor of Michigan. Throughout the early 1960s, Mitt collected petition signatures, campaigned at his father’s side, attended strategy sessions with his father’s political advisors, and interned at his father’s office during all three of his gubernatorial terms. He attended the 1964 Republican National Convention where his father led a challenge of moderates against the right-wing Barry Goldwater. Although he was fulfilling his spiritual obligation as a Mormon missionary in France in 1968 while his father was the front-running GOP presidential candidate, Mitt was kept apprised of the political developments back in the U.S.

Upon completion of his foreign mission, he immersed himself in the 1970 senatorial campaign of his mother, Lenore Romney, who was running against Phillip Hart in the Michigan general election. That same year, the Cougar Club — the all male, all white social club at Brigham Young University in Salt Lake City (blacks were excluded from full membership in the Mormon church until 1978) — was humming with talk that its president, Mitt Romney, would become the first Mormon president of the United States. “If not Mitt, then who?” was the ubiquitous slogan within the elite organization. The pious world of BYU was expected to spawn the man who would lead the Mormons into the White House and fulfill the prophecies of the church’s founder, Joseph Smith Jr., which Romney has avidly sought to realize.

Romney avoids mentioning it, but Smith ran for president in 1844 as an independent commander in chief of an “army of God” advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government in favor of a Mormon-ruled theocracy. Challenging Democrat James Polk and Whig Henry Clay, Smith prophesied that if the U.S. Congress did not accede to his demands that “they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them.” Smith viewed capturing the presidency as part of the mission of the church. He had predicted the emergence of “the one Mighty and Strong” — a leader who would “set in order the house of God” — and became the first of many prominent Mormon men to claim the mantle.

Smith’s insertion of religion into politics and his call for a “theodemocracy where God and people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteous matters” created a sensation and drew hostility from the outside world. But his candidacy was cut short when he was shot to death by an anti-Mormon vigilante mob. Out of Smith’s national political ambitions grew what would become known in Mormon circles as the “White Horse Prophecy” — a belief ingrained in Mormon culture and passed down through generations by church leaders that the day would come when the U.S. Constitution would “hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber” and the Mormon priesthood would save it.

Romney is the product of this culture. At BYU, he was idolized by fellow students and referred to, only half jokingly, as the “One Mighty and Strong.” He was the “alpha male” in the rarefied Cougar pack, according to Michael D. Moody, a BYU classmate and fellow member of the group. Composed almost exclusively of returned Mormon missionaries, the club members were known for their preppy blue blazers and enthusiastic athletic boosterism. Romney, who had been the assistant to the president of the French Mission where he was personally in charge of more than 200 missionaries, easily assumed a leadership position in the club.

Both political and religious, the Cougar Club raised funds for the school and its members emulated the campus-wide honor and dress codes, passionately disavowing the counterculture symbolism of long hair, bell-bottom jeans and antiwar slogans that were sweeping college campuses throughout America. They held monthly “Fireside testimonies” — Sacrament meetings at which each member testified to his belief that he lived in Heaven before being born on Earth, that he became mortal in order to usher in the latter days, and that he recognized Joseph Smith as the prophet, the Book of Mormon as the word of God, and the Mormon church as the one true faith.

Such regular testimonies encouraged the students to live devout lives and to resist the encroaching outside influences overtaking the nation at large. “It helps them cope with such external pressures as evolution-teaching professors and cranky anthropologists who expect answers that conflict with LDS teachings,” according to James Coates, author of “In Mormon Circles.”

They traditionally hosted frat-like parties (Greek fraternities were banned from the campus) to raise a few thousand dollars for the college’s sports teams. But Cougar president Romney drove the young men to aim higher, orchestrating a telethon that raised a stunning million dollars. Romney’s position as head of the club was widely seen as a calculated steppingstone for a career in national politics.

So it seemed disingenuous to his former club mates when, in a 2006 magazine interview, Romney denied his longtime political aspirations. “I have to admit I did not think I was going to be in politics,” he told the American Spectator. “Had I thought politics was in my future, I would not have chosen Massachusetts as the state of my residence. I would have stayed in Michigan where my Dad’s name was golden.”

Michael Moody says political success was an institutional value of the LDS church.

“The instructions in my [patriarchal] blessing, which I believed came directly from Jesus, motivated me to seek a career in government and politics,” he wrote in his 2008 book. Moody recently said that he ran for governor of Nevada in 1982 because he felt he had been divinely directed to “expand our kingdom” and help Romney “lead the world into the Millennium. Once a firm believer but now a church critic, Moody was indoctrinated with the White Horse Prophecy. Like Romney, Moody is a seventh-generation Mormon, steeped in the same intellectual and theological milieu.

“We were taught that America is the Promised Land,” he said in an interview.”The Mormons are the Chosen People. And the time is now for a Mormon leader to usher in the second coming of Christ and install the political Kingdom of God in Washington, D.C.”

In this scenario, Romney’s candidacy is part of the eternal plan and the candidate himself is fulfilling the destiny begun in what the church calls the “pre-existence.”

Several prominent Mormons, including conservative talk-show host Glenn Beck, have alluded to this apocalyptic prophecy. The controversial myth is not an official church doctrine, but it has also arisen in the national dialogue with the presidential candidacies of Mormons George Romney, Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and now Mitt Romney.

“I don’t think the White Horse Prophecy is fair to bring up at all,” Mitt Romney told the Salt Lake Tribune when he was asked about it during his 2008 presidential bid. “It’s been rejected by every church leader that has talked about it. It has nothing to do with anything.”

Pundits and scholars, rabbis and bloggers, have repeatedly posed the question during Romney’s run: Is a candidate’s religion relevant? With a startling 50 percent increase of recently polled American voters claiming to know little or nothing about Mormonism, another 32 percent rejecting Mormonism as a Christian faith, a whopping 42 percent saying they would feel “somewhat or very uncomfortable” with a Mormon president, and a widespread sense that the religion is a cult, the issue is clearly more complicated than religious bigotry alone. Judging from poll results, Americans seem less prejudiced against a candidate’s faith than concerned about the unknown, apprehensive about any kind of fanaticism, and generally uneasy about a religion that is neither mainstream Judaic nor Christian.

Just as the Christian fundamentalism of former GOP candidates Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry informed their political ideology — and was therefore considered fair game in the national dialogue — so too does Mormonism define not only Mitt Romney’s character, but what kind of president he would be and what impulses would drive him in both domestic and foreign policy.

Romney’s religion is not a sideline, but a crucial element in understanding the man, the mission and the candidacy. He is the quintessential Mormon who embodies all of the basic elements of the homegrown American religion that is among the fastest growing religions in the world. Like his father before him, Romney has charted a course from missionary to businessman, from church bishop to politician — and to presidential candidate. The influence that Mormonism has had on him has dominated every step of the way.

The seeds of Romney’s unique brand of conservatism, often regarded with intense suspicion by most non-Mormon conservatives, were sown in the secretive, acquisitive, patriarchal, authoritarian religious empire run by “quorums” of men under an umbrella consortium called the General Authorities. A creed unlike any other in the United States, from its inception Mormonism encouraged material prosperity and abundance as a measure of holy worth, and its strict system of tithing 10 percent of individual wealth has made the church one of the world’s richest institutions.

A multibillion-dollar business empire that includes agribusiness, mining, insurance, electronic and print media, manufacturing, movie production, commercial real estate, defense contracting, retail stores and banking, the Mormon church has unprecedented economic and political power. Despite a solemn stricture against any act or tolerance of gambling, Mormons have been heavily invested and exceptionally influential in the Nevada gaming industry since the great expansion of modern Las Vegas in the 1950s. Valued for their unquestioning loyalty to authority as well as general sobriety — they are prohibited from imbibing in alcohol, tobacco or coffee — Mormons have long been recruited into top positions in government agencies and multinational corporations. They are prominent in such institutions as the CIA, FBI and the national nuclear weapons laboratories, giving the church a sphere of influence unlike any other American religion in the top echelons of government.

Romney, like his father before him who voluntarily tithed an unparalleled 19 percent of his personal fortune, is among the church’s wealthiest members. And like his father, grandfather and great-grandfathers before him, Mitt Romney was groomed for a prominent position in the church, which he manifested first as a missionary, then as a bishop, and then as a stake president, becoming the highest-ranking Mormon leader in Boston — the equivalent of a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church.

Called a “militant millennial movement” by renowned Mormon historian David L. Bigler, Mormonism’s founding theology was based upon a literal takeover of the U.S. government. In light of the theology and divine prophecies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, unamended by the LDS hierarchy, it would seem that the office of the American presidency is the ultimate ecclesiastical position to which a Mormon leader might aspire. So it is not the LDS cosmology that is relevant to Romney’s candidacy, but whether devout 21stcentury Mormons like Romney believe that the American presidency is also a theological position.

Since his first campaign in 2008, Romney has attempted to keep debate about his religion out of the political discourse. The issue is not whether there is a religious test for political office; the Constitution prohibits it. Instead, the question is whether, past all of the flip-flops on virtually every policy, he has an underlying religious conception of the presidency and the American government. At the recent GOP presidential debate in Florida, Romney professed that the Declaration of Independence is a theological document, not specific to the rebellious 13 colonies, but establishing a covenant “between God and man.” Which would suggest that Mitt Romney views the American presidency as a theological office.

patteeu
01-30-2012, 07:36 AM
Interesting article. I don't see anything more worrisome than Joe Kennedy raising his sons to be President (which is to say, nothing at all).

Dave Lane
01-30-2012, 07:40 AM
Does this mean he was born in Kenya?

BucEyedPea
01-30-2012, 07:49 AM
Same thing was said about JFK and he was elected. Then again, it was claimed by Nixon that JFK stole that election.

patteeu
01-30-2012, 08:00 AM
One thing I didn't like about the article is that it suggested the possibility that the Mormon who finally achieves the Presidency is going to radically transform our government (into a "theodemocracy"), but it never really explains what that's supposed to mean. I assume that's because it doesn't really mean anything.

HonestChieffan
01-30-2012, 08:04 AM
The issue is a nonstarter but the anti Mitt forces will troll this throughout the campaign trying to paint Mormonism as some great threat.

NewChief
01-30-2012, 08:09 AM
The issue is a nonstarter but the anti Mitt forces will troll this throughout the campaign trying to paint Mormonism as some great threat.

I'll be curious next time I go home and hang out with my Southern Baptist relatives, how they feel. In the past, they've viewed Mormonism as a cult not much different from say, the Hare Krishnas. That was back in the late eighties, though. Maybe they've progressed in their views on them since then.

My dad, who was considered a "scholar" of world religions and cults within our church and taught it regularly in Sunday School for various ages and classes, did whole months worth of studies on Mormons. He mellowed quite a bit in his old age, but those lessons left a pretty distinct impression on me that, at least at that church, very few of those people would vote for a Mormon.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 08:28 AM
America: The Mormon nation

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 08:28 AM
I think the author's motives were made pretty clear with this sentence towards the end of the article: "Instead, the question is whether, past all of the flip-flops on virtually every policy, he has an underlying religious conception of the presidency and the American government."

The author is obviously very anti-Romney, and it's a good idea to keep that in mind when reading the article.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 08:29 AM
I think the author's motives were made pretty clear with this sentence towards the end of the article: "Instead, the question is whether, past all of the flip-flops on virtually every policy, he has an underlying religious conception of the presidency and the American government."

The author is obviously very anti-Romney, and it's a good idea to keep that in mind when reading the article.

Anyone who hates liars is/should be anti Romney.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 08:35 AM
Anyone who hates liars is/should be anti Romney.
What has Romney lied about?

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 08:43 AM
What has Romney lied about?

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of many lies.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2012, 08:58 AM
I'll be curious next time I go home and hang out with my Southern Baptist relatives, how they feel. In the past, they've viewed Mormonism as a cult not much different from say, the Hare Krishnas. That was back in the late eighties, though. Maybe they've progressed in their views on them since then.

My dad, who was considered a "scholar" of world religions and cults within our church and taught it regularly in Sunday School for various ages and classes, did whole months worth of studies on Mormons. He mellowed quite a bit in his old age, but those lessons left a pretty distinct impression on me that, at least at that church, very few of those people would vote for a Mormon.

All religions are cults or start out being considered cults. Christ and his followers were considered that even if they didn't use the word.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2012, 09:00 AM
What has Romney lied about?

Well that would be either that he is a Progressive or a Conservative. Live footage has been provided of him claiming to be a Progressive. Now we see him claiming to be a Conservative. He can't be both as they are opposed. So at one point he has told a lie. Not sure which one here.

La literatura
01-30-2012, 09:00 AM
At the recent GOP presidential debate in Florida, Romney professed that the Declaration of Independence is a theological document, not specific to the rebellious 13 colonies, but establishing a covenant “between God and man.” Which would suggest that Mitt Romney views the American presidency as a theological office.

I think this is a false alarm, for several reasons. One, the Declaration of Independence does indeed reference a creator in that deistic fashion popular at the time among educated elite, so Romney's point of view is not inappropriate. Two, that the Declaration of Independence's relies on natural law is quite a traditional and accurate view, so Romney's point of view is not out-of-line from most peoples. Three, the Declaration of Independence contains nothing about a presidency, nor a framework for American government, which is the Constitution, something created after the DoI, the Revolution, and the Articles of Confederation.

But supposing Romney does view the American presidency as a theological office, what does that mean for us? That he will rule with a theological bent? That the tenets of Mormonism will become American law? I sincerely doubt it.

I think it's important to look at a person's religion and religious beliefs. I don't think Romney's Mormonism is a cause for concern, however. In fact, he has already governed while holding Mormon beliefs. It does not appear, as far as I know, that Massachussetts is crawling with Mormon-favored laws.

patteeu
01-30-2012, 10:47 AM
of many lies.

What was the lie?

patteeu
01-30-2012, 10:48 AM
Well that would be either that he is a Progressive or a Conservative. Live footage has been provided of him claiming to be a Progressive. Now we see him claiming to be a Conservative. He can't be both as they are opposed. So at one point he has told a lie. Not sure which one here.

We don't have live footage, but isn't it true that at one point you considered yourself a progressive and now you consider yourself some combination of paleoconservative and libertarian? Does that make you a liar? Of course not. And it doesn't make Romney a liar either.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 12:29 PM
What has Romney lied about?

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of many lies.
Is that the best you've got?

I think Mitt Romney has a better idea who runs his campaign than some reporter does. He explained exactly what the guy's role is in his campaign and why he's not a senior strategist on it.

If you're going to call him a liar, you need to come up something better than that. And don't waste our time by saying "Well, he was for abortion before he was against it" or some other idiotic nonsense like that.

mikey23545
01-30-2012, 02:22 PM
Is that the best you've got?

I think Mitt Romney has a better idea who runs his campaign than some reporter does. He explained exactly what the guy's role is in his campaign and why he's not a senior strategist on it.

If you're going to call him a liar, you need to come up something better than that. And don't waste our time by saying "Well, he was for abortion before he was against it" or some other idiotic nonsense like that.

You would think KILLER and BEP would be too busy trying to explain how Ron Paul isn't a flaming racist to have time to hurl Mormon-rocks at Romney.

ChiTown
01-30-2012, 02:56 PM
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of many lies.

:rolleyes:

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:01 PM
:rolleyes:
Yep.

Poor Killer_Clown seems to be at a loss for words now.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:02 PM
You would think KILLER and BEP would be too busy trying to explain how Ron Paul isn't a flaming racist to have time to hurl Mormon-rocks at Romney.

Ron Paul doesn't need defending and Romney being Mormon is the least of my concerns. The fact his positions sway with the wind is of grave concern.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:03 PM
Is that the best you've got?

I think Mitt Romney has a better idea who runs his campaign than some reporter does. He explained exactly what the guy's role is in his campaign and why he's not a senior strategist on it.

If you're going to call him a liar, you need to come up something better than that. And don't waste our time by saying "Well, he was for abortion before he was against it" or some other idiotic nonsense like that.

I don't have the time to pull up all of Mittsies lies, it should be self evident if you've been paying attention.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:04 PM
Ron Paul doesn't need defending and Romney being Mormon is the least of my concerns. The fact his positions sway with the wind is of grave concern.
You're right, he did change his position on abortion TEN YEARS AGO, and as governor he acted in a manner consistent with the change in his position.

I say we lynch him for that.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:04 PM
I don't have the time to pull up all of Mittsies lies, it should be self evident if you've been paying attention.
In other words, you've got nothing.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:05 PM
You're right, he did change his position on abortion TEN YEARS AGO, and as governor he acted in a manner consistent with the change in his position.

I say we lynch him for that.

No need to lynch, how about we realize he is unelectable and move on to someone who is.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:06 PM
In other words, you've got nothing.

No Mitt does a great job of hanging himself politically.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:06 PM
No need to lynch, how about we realize he is unelectable and move on to someone who is.
Few things are as funny as a Paulbot calling Mitt Romney unelectable.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:07 PM
No Mitt does a great job of hanging himself politically.
How about if you offer up a specific example where Mitt Romney lied, as you claim, rather than responding with vague generalities that mean nothing?

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:08 PM
Few things are as funny as a Paulbot calling Mitt Romney unelectable.

If Mitt gets the nomination you as well as many others here will be left wondering what happened when Obama gets his 2nd term.

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:09 PM
If Mitt gets the nomination you as well as many others here will be left wondering what happened when Obama gets his 2nd term.

Who polls the best against Obama of all Republican candidates?

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:09 PM
Mitt Romney's Lies
From '100,000 new jobs' to Obama's jobs record to his first name, Mitt Romney has a truth problem

By Robert Schlesinger
January 12, 2012 RSS Feed Print

As his briefly front-running campaign sunk in the polls under relentless punishment from Mitt Romney's "super PAC" allies in the days before the Iowa caucuses, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich caused a brief stir by matter-of-factly telling a TV interviewer that Romney is a "liar."

"Why are you saying he's a liar?" his apparently shocked interlocutor pressed. The notion that Mitt Romney routinely makes statements lacking a factual basis should not come as a surprise to anyone who has followed the campaign. On the left, Paul Krugman has marveled that no other candidate has ever "lied so freely, with so little compunction." On the right, The American Conservative's Daniel Larison wondered about why he lies, concluding that the former Massachusetts governor is "so contemptuous of the people he tells lies to that he never thinks he will be found out."

[Read Robert Schlesinger and other columnists in U.S. News Weekly, now available on iPad.]

With Romney sweeping Iowa and New Hampshire and leading in the polls in South Carolina, this is a good time to catalogue some of Romney's greatest hits thus far.

"100,000 new jobs." Romney has repeatedly claimed that during his tenure at Bain Capital, "net-net, we created over 100,000 jobs." His campaign defends the figure by tallying the current employment totals of some companies Bain aided. That's a stretch in and of itself, but it's also not a net figure. It lacks the balancing context of how many jobs were destroyed by Bain. As the Los Angeles Times reported in December, while Bain helped some companies grow, "Romney and his team also maximized returns by firing workers, seeking government subsidies, and flipping companies quickly for large profits. Sometimes Bain investors gained even when companies slid into bankruptcy."

Indeed, the Wall Street Journal looked closely at Bain's record under Romney and found that 22 percent "either filed for bankruptcy or closed their doors by the end of the eighth year after Bain first invested, sometimes with substantial job losses." Which is not really terribly surprising: Bain's raison d'etre is not job creation but wealth creation for its investors. As Washington Post fact checker Glenn Kessler noted in an article Monday calling Romney's "100,000 jobs" figure "untenable," Romney and Bain "never could have raised money from investors if the prospectus seeking $1-million investments from the super wealthy had said it would focus on creating jobs."

As a corollary, when Romney's record has been criticized, he has dismissed criticisms as an attempt to "put free enterprise on trial." It's not an attack on free enterprise. It's an attack on Romney's strained attempt to spin his successful record of wealth-creation into one of job-creation. It's also a recognition that while a net good, the free market has its destructive side—and it's a fair question to ask, whether voters consider experience in that sort of vulture capitalism as a good qualification for the presidency. Do they want government to be run more like that kind of business?

[See a collection of political cartoons on Mitt Romney.]

Obama's jobs record. By Romney's own logic (touting jobs created but ignoring jobs lost), his attacks on President Obama's economic record are nonsensical. He told Time that Obama "has not created any new jobs," and he told Fox News last week that Obama has "lost" 2 million jobs as president. This is indeed a net figure, but also a misleading one. When Obama took office, the economy was shedding jobs at a rate of nearly 1 million jobs per month, losing roughly 3 million during the first four months of 2009. But presidential policies don't take effect as soon as the incoming chief takes his oath. Once Obama's policies started to take effect, the trend turned. The country had added 3.2 million private sector jobs over the course of 22 straight months of private sector growth. By Romney's definition, the president has created more than 3 million jobs—not enough, but also not none.

[Read the U.S. News debate: Will Mitt Romney Be the GOP Presidential Nominee?]

In fact the biggest drag on job growth is the 600,000 public sector jobs that have disappeared under the auspices of budget austerity. As my colleague Danielle Kurtzleben reported in September, "government jobs are being shed by the tens of thousands almost every month, hindering an already weak recovery."

"Entitlement society." Romney has argued that Obama "is replacing our merit-based, opportunity society with an entitlement society," where "everyone is handed the same rewards, regardless of education, effort, and willingness to take risk." As New York's Jonathan Chait has observed, "This accusation is approximately as accurate as claiming that the Republican Party wants to pass laws forbidding poor people from making more money." The idea that President Obama (or any Democrat) advocates for equality of outcomes simply lacks a basis in fact.

[See a collection of political cartoons on the budget and deficit.]

It's an important fabrication, because it marks a turning point in Romney's attacks on Obama. Previously the president was characterized as ineffectual, but not a socialist. Forced to battle to win the GOP primaries, Romney has adopted the Tea Party's extremist rhetoric. It won't play with swing voters, even delivered in his polished drone.

Defense cuts. In an October speech on national security, Romney promised to "reverse President Obama's massive defense cuts." One problem: Pentagon spending has gone up under Obama, from $594 billion in 2008 to $666 billion. The 2011 request was for $739 billion. As Rick Perry would say, "Oops."

[Read the U.S. News debate: Are Cuts to the Defense Budget Necessary?]

No apologies. Romney has said that Obama "went around the world and apologized for America." This is part of the conservative, dog-whistle meme that Obama is un-American (and possibly even a foreigner!). While the notion of an international apology tour is a staple of the conservative case against Obama, it is also fictitious. The Washington Post's fact-checker concluded that "the claim that Obama repeatedly has apologized for the United States is not borne out by the facts, especially if his full quotes are viewed in context." Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology from Romney on this one.

"Mitt." It's a small one, but might be my favorite. During a debate in November, when moderator Wolf Blitzer introduced himself by saying that "Wolf" is really his first name, Romney greeted the audience by saying, "I'm Mitt Romney, and yes, Wolf, that's also my first name." In fact, Willard is his first name. It's a lie notable for being so mundane: Why would someone fudge their name? It's almost as if he can't control himself.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/01/12/mitt-romneys-lies

vailpass
01-30-2012, 03:11 PM
Who polls the best against Obama of all Republican candidates?

As of today Mitt and it isn't close. Was wondering if someone was going to point that out.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:12 PM
Why, Yes, Mitt Romney Does Lie a Great Deal

I’ve always had a soft spot for Mitt Romney, who strikes me, in a way I can’t completely define, as a good guy. The fact that he is an audacious liar does not strike me as a definitive judgment on his character, but primarily a reflection of the circumstances he finds himself in – having to transition from winning a majority of a fairly liberal electorate to winning a majority of a rabidly conservative one, one that cannot be placated without indulging in all sorts of fantasies.

So I do understand David Frum’s sympathy for Romney. What I don’t quite get is Frum’s claim that Romney is not an audacious liar. He made this claim in a joint interview we gave on Canadian television, and again the other day in the Daily Beast:

Mitt Romney cares a great deal about speaking accurately and truthfully. He uses statistics carefully in his speeches and debates, unlike former leading rival Rick Perry.

He eschews the audacious somersaulting of reality we often hear from current rival Newt Gingrich …

So long as we are in the world of facts and specifics, Romney has shown himself scrupulous not to overstate or misrepresent. Even where he has changed his mind, on abortion for example, you'll see no equivalent of the glaring disregard for the factual record of a Ron Paul

Really? It seems to me that Romney makes factual, specific claims that are false all the time. Some of them are minor, daily stories, such as his denials, when convenient, that he knows anything about the ads he is running against Newt Gingrich. Others are obvious attempts to mislead the public about his own history:

When first asked as a 1994 US Senate candidate about records showing him voting in the 1992 Democratic primary, Romney said he couldn’t recall for whom he voted.

Then Romney told the Globe he voted for Tsongas because he preferred his ideas to his then-opponent for the nomination, Bill Clinton. Later, he added that it was proof he was not a partisan politician.

Yet in 2007, while making his first run for president, Romney offered a new explanation: He said he voted for Tsongas as a tactical maneuver, aiming to present the “weakest opponent” possible for Bush.

Or important components of the claims that undergird his policy arguments:

At last night’s debate, for instance, Romney claimed that Obama “went before the United Nations” and “said nothing about thousands of rockets being rained in on Israel from the Gaza Strip.”

This is flat out false. Obama talked about the rockets hitting Israel in two speeches before the U.N.: One in 2009, and the other in 2011.

These are just a couple of examples plucked from the last day of campaigning. There is an endless supply, large and small. Romney’s whole line of attack against Obama rests upon facts that are verifiably false. His main foreign policy indictment is a lie that Obama went around the world apologizing for the United States – this is the basis for his slogan that he "believes in America," as well as the title of his campaign book, No Apology. His domestic indictment of Obama rests upon his ludicrous claims that Obama "has no jobs plan" and his repeated, specific assertion that Obama wants to create full equality of outcome.

Even by the standards of politicians, Romney seems unusually prone to dishonesty. Again, you can ascribe this to circumstance rather than character. I see him as a patrician pol, like George H.W. Bush, who believes deeply in public service but regards elections as a cynical process of pandering to rubes. I think you can plausibly make other interpretations, and you can separate Romney the man or even Romney the president from Romney the candidate. But I don’t see how you can paint Romney the candidate as in any way scrupulous about the truth in any form.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/why-yes-mitt-romney-does-lie-a-great-deal.html

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 03:14 PM
Mitt Romney's Lies
From '100,000 new jobs' to Obama's jobs record to his first name, Mitt Romney has a truth problem

By Robert Schlesinger
January 12, 2012 RSS Feed Print

(snip)

"Mitt." It's a small one, but might be my favorite. During a debate in November, when moderator Wolf Blitzer introduced himself by saying that "Wolf" is really his first name, Romney greeted the audience by saying, "I'm Mitt Romney, and yes, Wolf, that's also my first name." In fact, Willard is his first name. It's a lie notable for being so mundane: Why would someone fudge their name? It's almost as if he can't control himself.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/01/12/mitt-romneys-lies
Congratulations for FINALLY attempting to support your contention with a link to an article.

Of course, the problem is that the article is pretty much nonsense. So the author disagrees with Romney's estimates of the numbers of jobs created. Most people don't see that as a big deal, and most people don't think a difference of opinion on such a trivial matter constitutes a lie.

Of course, the big finale of the article is to call Mitt Romney a liar for jokingly saying that his first name is Mitt, when everybody knows what his full name is. That right there should tell you how seriously to take the article.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:15 PM
On Fox News, Mitt Romney Lies About His Investments In Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac

On the January 25 edition of Fox & Friends on Fox News, Mitt Romney was asked about his personal investments in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. He responded by falsely claiming the investment was part of a mutual fund chosen by a trustee and part of his blind trust.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UBViV_ncnUA?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BRIAN KILMEADE (HOST): Yesterday Newt Gingrich joined us and said, “I just found out that Mitt Romney was in investor in Fannie & Freddie.” What’s the truth?

MITT ROMNEY: [Laughs] That’s pretty funny. My investments, of course, are managed not by me. For the last ten years they’ve been guided and managed by a trustee, they’re in a blind trust. And the trustee invested in mutual funds and so forth and apparently one of the funds had Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac bonds.

That’s not true. As the Boston Globe originally reported in September: “And unlike most of Romney’s financial holdings, which are held in a blind trust that is overseen by a trustee and not known to Romney, this particular investment was among those that would have been known to Romney.” The Romney campaign has not disputed that report because it is public information:

Romney Reported Owning Between $250,001 and $500,000 in Federated Government Obligation Fund that Holds Significant Government-Investments in Mortgage-Backed Securities. In his most recent personal financial disclosure, Romney reported owning between $250,001 and $500,000 in the Federated Government Obligations Fund, which held investments in Fannie Mae debt notes, Freddie Mac debt notes, and Housing & Urban Development debt notes. [Securities and Exchange Commission, 4/30/11; Federated, “Federated Government Obligations Fund,” www.federatedinvestors.com; Federated Government Obligations Fund Prospectus, 9/30/10; Public Financial Disclosure Report, “Schedule A,” Office of Government of Ethics, Willard Mitt Romney, Filed 2011]

Romney’s Investment in Federated Government Obligation Fund Was Outside of His Blind Trust, and He Had Complete Discretion Over It. “Other than assets and income sources listed on page 1 of Schedule A, all of the assets listed in this Report are held by the W. Mitt Romney Blind Trust, the Ann D. Romney Blind Trust, Mr. Romney’s IRA or Mrs. Romney’s IRA (collectively, the ‘Reporting Entities’). In each case, R. Bradford Malt, as Trustee (the ‘Trustee’), has complete investment discretion over the assets held by these investment vehicles, except where the Trustee has delegated that discretion to third party investment managers.” [Public Financial Disclosure Report, “Notes to OGE Form 278, Schedule A,” Office of Government of Ethics, Willard Mitt Romney, Filed 2011]

Romney’s Federated Government Obligation Fund Was Almost Half Comprised Of Holdings in Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Federal Home Loan Bank Notes. Romney’s Federated Government Obligations Fund reported holding investments in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debt notes. Out of the mutual fund’s $28.5 billion portfolio, the fund held $2,706,357,583 worth of Fannie Mae debt, $2,332,175,880 in Freddie Mac debt, and $7,931,931,437 in Federal Home Loan Bank debt notes. [Securities and Exchange Commission, 4/30/11; Public Financial Disclosure Report, “Schedule A,” Office of Government of Ethics, Willard Mitt Romney, Filed 2011]

http://www.americanbridgepac.org/2012/01/wire/response/on-fox-news-mitt-romney-lies-about-his-investments-in-fannie-mae-freddie-mac/

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:17 PM
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patteeu
01-30-2012, 03:23 PM
I don't have the time to pull up all of Mittsies lies, it should be self evident if you've been paying attention.

The problem seems to be that you weren't even able to name one off the top of your head. Like all politicians, I'm sure he's said something deceptive before and he may have even lied at some point, but if he lies so much, it shouldn't have been that hard to come up with a real example.

Since you can't seem to come up with lies, what are the major positions on which he's swaying in the wind?

I'll grant you that he's not a movement conservative with rock solid principles guiding his every move and I'll also grant that he's not the kind of radical conservative that some people demand, but he's not the shapeshifter or the liberal that he's made out to be.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:25 PM
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KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:26 PM
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nbFYeEr1sEs?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nbFYeEr1sEs?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

vailpass
01-30-2012, 03:28 PM
Why it gotta' be a WHITE horse? You sayin' you threatent by obama cuz he be a BLACK MAN?!

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:34 PM
The problem seems to be that you weren't even able to name one off the top of your head. Like all politicians, I'm sure he's said something deceptive before and he may have even lied at some point, but if he lies so much, it shouldn't have been that hard to come up with a real example.

Since you can't seem to come up with lies, what are the major positions on which he's swaying in the wind?

I'll grant you that he's not a movement conservative with rock solid principles guiding his every move and I'll also grant that he's not the kind of radical conservative that some people demand, but he's not the shapeshifter or the liberal that he's made out to be.

Well let's start with Obama/Romney care, what do you think, as a conservative, of this?

BucEyedPea
01-30-2012, 03:47 PM
Who polls the best against Obama of all Republican candidates?

Romney and Paul.

Too bad Paul is the real thing, as opposed to window dressing. The rest of the flock are in denial about getting Obama's type of policies out of the WH. Even Soros said there's little to no difference between Mitt and Obama—except perhaps on court appointments. Those aren't a slam dunk either with Romney.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 03:50 PM
Who polls the best against Obama of all Republican candidates?

Looks like Ron Paul in a landslide against EVERY other candidate..

68% for Paul, Romney and Obama at 12%

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254997

patteeu
01-30-2012, 04:13 PM
Well let's start with Obama/Romney care, what do you think, as a conservative, of this?

There is no Obama/Romney care.

I don't care what Massachusetts does in their state.

I don't like Obamacare, but it's not because of the individual mandate. I'd be fine with a constitutionally acceptable mandate if it was for a limited, mostly-catastrophic level of coverage, but unfortunately as soon as we start there, liberals will come along and try to buy votes by increasing the coverage and expanding the degree to which government subsidies are offered to cover premiums. It's a difficult problem.

BucEyedPea
01-30-2012, 04:44 PM
Interesting that Soros and Pat think alike here.

patteeu
01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Interesting that Soros and Pat think alike here.

Soros and I both like bacon too. Fascinating, huh?

HonestChieffan
01-30-2012, 05:26 PM
Soros and I both like bacon too. Fascinating, huh?

You need to get your conspiracy hat on anymore. Logic and current events that are real mean little when you can get all goofy.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 05:28 PM
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WRK2J0ymZGc?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WRK2J0ymZGc?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

RedNeckRaider
01-30-2012, 05:40 PM
The issue is a nonstarter but the anti Mitt forces will troll this throughout the campaign trying to paint Mormonism as some great joke.
FYP and yes it is~

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 05:42 PM
FYP and yes it is~

Hey man, when they're all lining up to get their own planet where will you be? Oh and...

LMAO

RedNeckRaider
01-30-2012, 05:43 PM
Hey man, when they're all lining up to get their own planet where will you be? Oh and...

LMAO

I am on Ebay right now trying to buy some magic underwear~

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 05:49 PM
I am on Ebay right now trying to buy some magic underwear~

You need both pieces, do you have the glasses yet?

Pioli Zombie
01-30-2012, 06:46 PM
At least he's not a Nazarene

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 07:09 PM
<script language="javascript">var VideoID = "17564"; var Width = 425; var Height = 344;</script><script src="http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/hdplayer/rt.php" language="javascript"></script>

LOCOChief
01-30-2012, 07:54 PM
"And the time is now for a Mormon leader to usher in the second coming of Christ and install the political Kingdom of God in Washington, D.C.”

Did we lose our Keanu Reeves?

Brainiac
01-30-2012, 08:33 PM
Killer-Clown has successfully killed this thread by posting all of those off-topic boring videos.

Pioli Zombie
01-30-2012, 09:01 PM
At least he didn't go to Penn State.

KILLER_CLOWN
01-30-2012, 09:55 PM
Killer-Clown has successfully killed this thread by posting all of those off-topic boring videos.

I object, they may be a skosh off topic but they are NOT boring!

go bowe
01-30-2012, 11:03 PM
I object, they may be a skosh off topic but they are NOT boring!

i don't know about that...

videos about 9-11 supporting conspiracy theories are more entertaining than this...

show the ones where he gets pissed off or something...

listopencil
01-30-2012, 11:20 PM
<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xyP2M0DTch8?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" height="360" width="640"></object>Mitt Romney Speaks French



That's it. He's dead to me.

Calcountry
01-31-2012, 03:16 PM
Does this mean he was born in Kenya?LMAO

Calcountry
01-31-2012, 03:19 PM
All religions are cults or start out being considered cults. Christ and his followers were considered that even if they didn't use the word.What was Muhammad?

KILLER_CLOWN
01-31-2012, 10:41 PM
What was Muhammad?

A False Prophet?

NewChief
02-20-2012, 06:53 AM
More along the lines that evangelicals are going to be more comfortable with Santorum than Romney. Considering my mom this weekend called Santorum "her man" for president, this is pretty timely. When I asked why she liked Santorum, it was because his "values" are Christian. Nothing to do with any policy beyond him being a moral conservative.

http://www.salon.com/2012/02/20/%E2%80%9Cphony_theology%E2%80%9D_and_evangelical_identity_politics/singleton/



MONDAY, FEB 20, 2012 6:56 AM CENTRAL STANDARD TIME
“Phony theology” and evangelical identity politics
Rick Santorum’s red meat weekend could make Mitt Romney’s Mormon problem even worse
BY STEVE KORNACKI

TOPICS:OPENING SHOT
For decades, the center of power in the Republican Party has been shifting southward, and the concentration of evangelical Christians within the party has been rising. So there’s some irony in the fact that as a series of crucial primaries in southern states approaches, the GOP race has, at least for now, become a two-man fight between a Mormon from Massachusetts and a Roman Catholic from Pennsylvania.

That Mitt Romney faces particular suspicion from the evangelical voters who have come to dominate southern Republican politics is old news. In his 2008 campaign, the former Massachusetts governor tried to run as the right’s default non-John McCain choice, a strategy that made Dixie crucial to his efforts. But in one southern state after another, Romney lagged badly among evangelicals (many of whom flocked to Mike Huckabee), preventing him from posting the breakout victories he badly needed. And do far in this campaign, polls suggest that the South remains unusually hostile to — or at least skeptical of — Romney.

The assumption is that Romney’s Mormonism plays a significant role in this. The bulk of southern evangelicals are Baptists and Pentecostals, who tend to be extra-resistant to the idea that the Mormon and Christian faiths are at all compatible and who may be extra-reluctant to vote for a candidate they consider so fundamentally different from them. As Robert Jeffress, the Texas Baptist leader who has called Mormonism “a theological cult,” put it a few months ago, “to those of us who are evangelicals, when all other things are equal, we prefer competent Christians to competent non-Christians who may be good, moral people like Mitt Romney.”

So with upcoming primaries in Georgia, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, there’s a real opportunity for Rick Santorum to harness this Romney resistance and do some real damage. But because of his northern Catholic background, Santorum isn’t a natural fit for southern evangelicals either.

So far, Santorum’s success has been limited to the Midwest, where he’s won contests in Iowa, Missouri, Minnesota and Colorado. But in South Carolina, he netted just 17 percent, good for a very distant third place, and in Florida he finished with 13 percent. In both states, evangelicals were more interested in Newt Gingrich, a Catholic convert who at least has southern political roots, than Santorum. And now that he (or, more precisely, the super PAC that’s aligned with him) is armed with another $10 million of Sheldon Adelson’s money, Gingrich poses a threat to Santorum’s southern hopes. If evangelicals really are more comfortable with the former House speaker and see him as viable, it could split the conservative vote throughout the South and open the door for Romney to win states with well under 50 percent of the vote.

Against this backdrop, the stir that Santorum caused over the weekend, when he claimed that President Obama is advancing “some phony theology,” takes on new significance. Santorum later claimed that he was actually talking about environmentalism, and not religion, but whatever his intent, the controversy could have the effect of strengthening his bond with evangelicals, particularly those in the South. Santorum also suggested that Obama practices a different form of Christianity and, in a separate weekend appearance, talked up the virtues of home-schooling. In a way, this was Santorum delivering a simple message to conservative evangelicals: I’m one of you. And it’s the kind of rhetoric that Romney, who has been trying to keep one eye on the general election, isn’t nearly as comfortable employing.

Gingrich’s success in South Carolina and the Florida panhandle suggests that Catholicism by itself isn’t enough to keep southern evangelicals from viewing a candidate as a “true” conservative. Santorum has the added obstacle of his northern roots, but there’s reason to believe he could run well — very well — in the Deep South in March. He’ll need to retain his viability (meaning no meltdown in Michigan) between now and then, but if he does, the red meat he tossed out this weekend should be very helpful.

Here’s a look at the Southern states that will vote in March. The first number is the share of GOP primary voters who identified themselves as evangelicals in 2008; the second number is the share of the statewide vote Romney received in ’08. Note that Virginia, which votes on March 6 and where 46 percent of the ’08 primary voters were evangelicals, isn’t listed, since Santorum failed to make the ballot there.

Oklahoma, March 6: 72%/25%

Tennessee, March 6: 73%/24%

Georgia, March 6: 62%/30%

Alabama, March 13: 77%/18%

Mississippi, March 13: 69%/***

Louisiana, March 24: 57%/***

***Romney dropped out before state voted