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luv
02-10-2012, 09:14 PM
So, all evening, I'm being bombarded with the anti-McCaskill ad saying that "Obamacare" cuts jobs, thus a vote against her (since she supported it) would be a vote for jobs.

Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 09:18 PM
So, all evening, I'm being bombarded with the anti-McCaskill ad saying that "Obamacare" cuts jobs, thus a vote against her (since she supported it) would be a vote for jobs.

Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?

It doesn't "cut" jobs.. in face, in many ways it will probably create a small number of bureaucratic jobs.

What it will do (at least what many business owners are saying it will do) is to significantly slow job growth. Many businesses will be loathe to hire new people when they will be on the hook for a significant health care cost. I honestly don't know the reality of it.. but that is definitely the perception... and it certainly has business owners scared.

Brainiac
02-10-2012, 09:18 PM
So, all evening, I'm being bombarded with the anti-McCaskill ad saying that "Obamacare" cuts jobs, thus a vote against her (since she supported it) would be a vote for jobs.

Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?
By raising costs on employers, who are then less likely to create new jobs.

La literatura
02-10-2012, 09:19 PM
The argument is that requiring employers to cover medical insurance plans is a cost burden that many businesses (usually small businesses are mentioned) cannot afford as is, and have to cut employees in order to cover the added costs.

Baby Lee
02-10-2012, 09:22 PM
At its most basic, jobs that are low pay and don't provide medical insurance will be aggressively reassessed. If 5 guys running a fast food shift bring in xxx amount of revenue and cost yyy in wages per hour, and those individual wages are close to minimum wage, how do you keep all the jobs if you now have to pay wages and medical insurance for those 5 guys if no more revenue is coming in. Raise prices or cut jobs?

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 09:23 PM
What it will do (at least what many business owners are saying it will do) is to significantly slow job growth. Many businesses will be loathe to hire new people when they will be on the hook for a significant health care cost. I honestly don't know the reality of it.. but that is definitely the perception...

This whole paragraph gets more and more hilarious with each sentence.

suzzer99
02-10-2012, 09:36 PM
At its most basic, jobs that are low pay and don't provide medical insurance will be aggressively reassessed. If 5 guys running a fast food shift bring in xxx amount of revenue and cost yyy in wages per hour, and those individual wages are close to minimum wage, how do you keep all the jobs if you now have to pay wages and medical insurance for those 5 guys if no more revenue is coming in. Raise prices or cut jobs?

Yeah this is why there is no fast food in Massachusettes, Hawaii, or the next top 50 developed nations on earth, which all have some form of UHC. Oh wait...

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 10:04 PM
This whole paragraph gets more and more hilarious with each sentence.

Exactly why is this hilarious? I admit that I don't KNOW the effect it will have. I can GUESS at it's negative effects... but I haven't taken the time to run the numbers and see anything definitive. That being said, I do know what numerous business owners are claiming. So I offered that information to LUV as an explanation of why certain people are claiming that it will "cut jobs."

My personal opinion is that it will create a burden for certain business owners but it will not completely destroy the economy as many seem to claim. Just because I am realistic about it, doesn't mean I support it... it's still a very bad idea.

Taco John
02-10-2012, 10:10 PM
So, all evening, I'm being bombarded with the anti-McCaskill ad saying that "Obamacare" cuts jobs, thus a vote against her (since she supported it) would be a vote for jobs.

Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?

Imagine you have a pie, and you split that pie among 10 people - two parents and 8 kids. The dad takes the dad sized slice. The Mom takes the mom sized slice. The older brother takes the older brother sized slice, all the way down to the baby sister taking the baby sister sized slice.

Now government comes in and says all slices must be as big as the mom sized slice. The problem is, if you cut the pie that way, you can only get 6 slices, not 10.

This is how Obamacare cuts jobs. Businesses are forced to make their limited resources stretch further, causing them to do a cost analysis that will often lead to jobs being cut, and leaves empty jobs that might have otherwise been created.

In many cases, businesses are scaling full-time jobs back to being part time jobs in order to avoid having to pay for healthcare. This will cause many of them problems, but it goes to them making a cost analysis that works for them.

Obamacare is definitely a job killer.

Taco John
02-10-2012, 10:11 PM
This whole paragraph gets more and more hilarious with each sentence.

Have you ever even worked in business?

Taco John
02-10-2012, 10:13 PM
Yeah this is why there is no fast food in Massachusettes, Hawaii, or the next top 50 developed nations on earth, which all have some form of UHC. Oh wait...

All of these top 50 nations receive subsidies from the US Department of Defense. None of them would be able to enjoy the lavish socialist programs they do if they had to invest in a national security infrastructure.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 10:18 PM
Exactly why is this hilarious? I admit that I don't KNOW the effect it will have. I can GUESS at it's negative effects... but I haven't taken the time to run the numbers and see anything definitive. That being said, I do know what numerous business owners are claiming. So I offered that information to LUV as an explanation of why certain people are claiming that it will "cut jobs."

My personal opinion is that it will create a burden for certain business owners but it will not completely destroy the economy as many seem to claim. Just because I am realistic about it, doesn't mean I support it... it's still a very bad idea.

It's hilarious because she asks "how does Obamacare kill jobs," you launch into a few sentences of doomsday-ing, only to eventually admit you have no idea and you're just speculating what people might think about it, which isn't what she was asking at all.

Other than that, it was a very serious answer full of seriousness.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 10:20 PM
Have you ever even worked in business?

I live under a bridge and no nothing about the wider world.

Teach me.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 10:22 PM
Imagine you have a pie, and you split that pie among 10 people - two parents and 8 kids. The dad takes the dad sized slice. The Mom takes the mom sized slice. The older brother takes the older brother sized slice, all the way down to the baby sister taking the baby sister sized slice.

Now government comes in and says all slices must be as big as the mom sized slice. The problem is, if you cut the pie that way, you can only get 6 slices, not 10.

This is how Obamacare cuts jobs. Businesses are forced to make their limited resources stretch further, causing them to do a cost analysis that will often lead to jobs being cut, and leaves empty jobs that might have otherwise been created.

In many cases, businesses are scaling full-time jobs back to being part time jobs in order to avoid having to pay for healthcare. This will cause many of them problems, but it goes to them making a cost analysis that works for them.

Obamacare is definitely a job killer.

Except that businesses that employ 50 or fewer people are exempt from the mandate, so the pie in this particular hypothetical can be split however they deem appropriate.

Other than that, a serious post full of seriousness.

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 10:25 PM
It's hilarious because she asks "how does Obamacare kill jobs," you launch into a few sentences of doomsday-ing, only to eventually admit you have no idea and you're just speculating what people might think about it, which isn't what she was asking at all.

Other than that, it was a very serious answer full of seriousness.

Jesus dude, are you drunk or just stupid?

I think you are the ONLY one who took that from what I wrote. Do you need me to go over it word for word so you might be able to understand it?

Here we go...

"What it will do (at least what many business owners are saying it will do)"
Here I explain that this isn't necessarily my opinion but is what is being said by many business owners

"is to significantly slow job growth. Many businesses will be loathe to hire new people when they will be on the hook for a significant health care cost."
Here I explain what they are saying

"I honestly don't know the reality of it.. but that is definitely the perception..."
Here I admit that I don't KNOW what will happen myself, but others seem to think these things

Pretty sure that was all very clear to everyone but you. I tried to answer her question without launching into any partisan rhetoric. What would your answer be? "IT'S ALL RIGHT WING LIES!!!!!!!OHNOESS ZOMG~!" How exactly would that have helped her out in any way?

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 10:27 PM
Except that businesses that employ 50 or fewer people are exempt from the mandate, so the pie in this particular hypothetical can be split however they deem appropriate.

Other than that, a serious post full of seriousness.

His post still has merit, it just means you can ignore it for smaller businesses. Of course one thing it doesn't take in to account ... there are other ways to cover costs besides cutting jobs. They could raise prices (likely) or increase efficiency (unlikely).

Taco John
02-10-2012, 10:37 PM
I live under a bridge and no nothing about the wider world.

Teach me.

I don't think you do know much about the wider world outside of your theoretical university understanding.

Taco John
02-10-2012, 10:39 PM
Except that businesses that employ 50 or fewer people are exempt from the mandate, so the pie in this particular hypothetical can be split however they deem appropriate.

Other than that, a serious post full of seriousness.


The metaphor is good. But you did highlight an important aspect of Obamacare: it encourages small businesses to stay small by penalizing businesses that get over the 50 people threshold.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 10:59 PM
What would your answer be? "IT'S ALL RIGHT WING LIES!!!!!!!OHNOESS ZOMG~!"

Swing and a miss.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:01 PM
His post still has merit, it just means you can ignore it for smaller businesses. Of course one thing it doesn't take in to account ... there are other ways to cover costs besides cutting jobs. They could raise prices (likely) or increase efficiency (unlikely).

I would be very surprised if either one of you were even aware of the small businesses exemption.

I would be pretty surprised if either one of you even had a remotely serious grip on the reform you're criticizing.

Like 95% of the people who criticize Obamacare and bleat out the GOP rhetoric that it's a "job killer."

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 11:03 PM
Swing and a miss.

You get my point though, right? You have added NOTHING constructive to this thread or to help LUV understand why that was being said. Instead you decide to make idiotic comments about my post when you are clearly didn't comprehend a)what was being said and b)it's intent.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:03 PM
I don't think you do know much about the wider world outside of your theoretical university understanding.

I'm telling you. I live under a bridge. Therefore, I know precisely jack and shit about the wider world.

Assume this going forward in order to spare me your empty pete-isms of "you don't know the world like I do." For the sake of all future conversation we will just assume you know more and experience more. Please.

I swear to god, if I never have that exchange with a self-involved blowhard reactionary ever again it will save me like a hundred hours of my life.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:05 PM
The metaphor is good. But you did highlight an important aspect of Obamacare: it encourages small businesses to stay small by penalizing businesses that get over the 50 people threshold.

Just like progressive tax rates encourage middle class people to stay middle class. Right?

Right.

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 11:06 PM
I would be very surprised if either one of you were even aware of the small businesses exemption.

I would be pretty surprised if either one of you even had a remotely serious grip on the reform you're criticizing.

Like 95% of the people who criticize Obamacare and bleat out the GOP rhetoric that it's a "job killer."

I FULLY understand the effect it will have on MY small business. I freely admitted that I need to do more research on the entirety of the bill and effects on other businesses before I make any sweeping statements. So, exactly where did I say that it was a doom and gloom job killer? I simply explained to LUV, why a political ad would say that and what the reasoning was. You really have ZERO reading comprehension skill tonight. But go ahead... continue to explain to ME what I think... before I even offer my take on things.

SNR
02-10-2012, 11:09 PM
Direckshun's just upset that Obamacare will force the Chiefs to let Brandon Carr walk, and now has to adjust for that in all of his mocks.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:15 PM
You get my point though, right? You have added NOTHING constructive to this thread or to help LUV understand why that was being said. Instead you decide to make idiotic comments about my post when you are clearly didn't comprehend a)what was being said and b)it's intent.

I don't know, there's a morbid part of me that enjoys you folks swinging at air, but fair point. I haven't really contributed to the thread substantially other than poking fun at you and TJ.

My two cents:

The legislation should actually reduce total labor in the economy by less than 1%, primarily because low income workers will work less. Fewer people will be driven to work two or three shit jobs in order to cover healthcare costs, as Medicaid will be expanded to cover many of the people who have to do that shit, and private insurance will be expanded to cover people who pre-existing conditions. Fewer people, like many of our mothers and fathers, will be in the workforce as they currently are only because they need the healthcare coverage.

That's destroying jobs alright. For people who don't want them.

The CBO is the only independent organization that does national estimations of these things, and it's concluded that the ultimate number of jobs that would be actually "killed" in the sense that you and TJ mean would, and I quote, "probably be small."

Matter of fact, Obamacare will actually create a million jobs in the healthcare sector in order to meet the rising demand of people who can now receive healthcare.

So, no, I don't think Obamacare is a jobs killer. I think a very small number of jobs will actually be "killed," a good number of folks will stop working the endless shifts because they basically have to, and a shit ton of jobs will actually be directly created by the demand the law creates.

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:15 PM
Direckshun's just upset that Obamacare will force the Chiefs to let Brandon Carr walk, and now has to adjust for that in all of his mocks.

Cross forum humor.

You, sir, are a dying breed.

alnorth
02-10-2012, 11:20 PM
Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?

Probably wont cut many, if any jobs while many people who previously weren't covered by insurance might be covered if it isn't thrown out by the courts, but that is just my opinion.

Honest, serious answer:

Many of us have opinions, but no one knows.

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 11:22 PM
The CBO is the only independent organization that does national estimations of these things, and it's concluded that the ultimate number of jobs that would be actually "killed" in the sense that you and TJ mean would, and I quote, "probably be small."
Jesus you are a moron tonight. WHERE DID I SAY IT WAS A JOB KILLER? I said that was the perception among many business owners and then explained some of the rationale used. I then UNEQUIVOCALLY stated that I don't yet have an opinion because I haven't done the research on overall numbers.

I am not conceding that you are right on your assertions either. It's a very complex issue and I haven't put in the time on that side of things because I think there is a solid chance that there will be MASSIVE changes coming before it ever takes effect. (you can see minor changes already due to the Catholic issue and there is a solid chance that the Supreme Court will force much larger ones) My GUESS is that it will have an overall negative economic effect but not a huge one.

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 11:24 PM
Probably wont cut many, if any jobs while many people who previously weren't covered by insurance might be covered if it isn't thrown out by the courts, but that is just my opinion.

Honest, serious answer:

Many of us have opinions, but no one knows.

Exactly. And apparently I have opinions I never even knew I had until Derection explained them to me.

(see what I did there! I called him DE-Rection.. like an anti-erection! I bet that hasn''t been done before!!!)

Direckshun
02-10-2012, 11:35 PM
I actually don't think that one has been done before.

My favorite to date has been Ms. Direckshun.

AustinChief
02-10-2012, 11:42 PM
I actually don't think that one has been done before.

My favorite to date has been Ms. Direckshun.

Seriously? If no one has used De-Rection... this place really has lost its burst!

suzzer99
02-11-2012, 12:19 AM
All of these top 50 nations receive subsidies from the US Department of Defense. None of them would be able to enjoy the lavish socialist programs they do if they had to invest in a national security infrastructure.

Lol that's the new excuse? What happened to homogeneity? Or logistics? Or socialists, all of them!?

suzzer99
02-11-2012, 12:22 AM
My 55-year-old general contractor uncle who fell off a ladder 15 years ago and shattered his ankles will be able to afford insurance again. If that makes any of you feel any better.

And the half dozen or so friends I know who got in car wrecks in their 20s and stiffed the hospital on the bill will at least be paying their own way from now on and won't drive up your medical costs anymore. If that helps ease the sting for some of you.

I know medical bankruptcy is a unique and special part of American Exceptionalism. But I slowly and with time, we will learn to live without it.

Baby Lee
02-11-2012, 07:48 AM
Just like progressive tax rates encourage middle class people to stay middle class. Right?

Right.

Bad analogy. Better analogy would be, widgets cost $.75 apiece to make. If you sell 100 widgets you can sell them for $1 apiece, but if you sell 101+, you can only sell them at $.70 apiece.

redsurfer11
02-11-2012, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=Direckshun;8364947]I'm telling you. I live under a bridge.



Trolls live under bridges. Don't they?

patteeu
02-11-2012, 08:49 AM
Just like progressive tax rates encourage middle class people to stay middle class. Right?

Right.

51 employee businesses don't just have to provide insurance for the 51st employee. They have to do it for the entire staff.

Direckshun
02-11-2012, 12:33 PM
Bad analogy. Better analogy would be, widgets cost $.75 apiece to make. If you sell 100 widgets you can sell them for $1 apiece, but if you sell 101+, you can only sell them at $.70 apiece.

If I make a few bucks more, I'm in a new tax bracket. And now I have to pay more in taxes.

The analogy stands.

Direckshun
02-11-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm telling you. I live under a bridge.

Trolls live under bridges. Don't they?

I can prove I'm an American citizen, if that's what you're getting at. :p

patteeu
02-11-2012, 12:42 PM
If I make a few bucks more, I'm in a new tax bracket. And now I have to pay more in taxes.

The analogy stands.

:facepalm: Frankie would be proud.

Direckshun
02-11-2012, 12:42 PM
:facepalm: Frankie would be proud.

You make an interesting point.

Or, no point.

One of the two. I think it's no point.

patteeu
02-11-2012, 12:55 PM
You make an interesting point.

Or, no point.

One of the two. I think it's no point.

I've already made the point, as did Baby Lee. When you move into a higher tax bracket by a dollar, you only pay additional tax on that marginal dollar. When you hire one additional worker that triggers the requirement to provide coverage, you not only have to provide coverage for that marginal employee, but also for all of your other employees.

Chief Henry
02-11-2012, 01:01 PM
So, all evening, I'm being bombarded with the anti-McCaskill ad saying that "Obamacare" cuts jobs, thus a vote against her (since she supported it) would be a vote for jobs.

Exactly how does "Obamacare" cut jobs?




Ultimately its the unknown in the more than 2,200 pages of new laws and gov't structures.....if it were so good, why have so many UNIONS been exempted from the Obamacare legislation ?