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Bowser
02-13-2012, 11:58 AM
"Politics and religion. About the deadliest brew man has come up with."


http://news.yahoo.com/monsignors-mutiny-revealed-vatican-leaks-140524856.html

..

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Call it Conspiracy City. Call it Scandal City. Call it Leak City. These days the holy city has been in the news for anything but holy reasons.

"It is a total mess," said one high-ranking Vatican official who spoke, like all others, on the condition of anonymity.

The Machiavellian maneuvering and machinations that have come to light in the Vatican recently are worthy of a novel about a sinister power struggle at a medieval court.

Senior church officials interviewed this month said almost daily embarrassments that have put the Vatican on the defensive could force Pope Benedict to act to clean up the image of its administration - at a time when the church faces a deeper crisis of authority and relevance in the wider world.

Some of those sources said the outcome of a power struggle inside the Holy See may even have a longer-term effect, on the choice of the man to succeed Benedict when he dies.

From leaked letters by an archbishop who was transferred after he blew the whistle on what he saw as a web of corruption and cronyism, to a leaked poison pen memo which puts a number of cardinals in a bad light, to new suspicions about its bank, Vatican spokesmen have had their work cut out responding.

The flurry of leaks has come at an embarrassing time - just before a usually joyful ceremony this week known as a consistory, when Benedict will admit more prelates into the College of Cardinals, the exclusive men's club that will one day pick the next Roman Catholic leader from among their own ranks.

"This consistory will be taking place in an atmosphere that is certainly not very glorious or exalting," said one bishop with direct knowledge of Vatican affairs.

The sources agreed that the leaks were part of an internal campaign - a sort of "mutiny of the monsignors" - against the pope's right-hand man, Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone.

Bertone, 77, has a reputation as a heavy-handed administrator and power-broker whose style has alienated many in the Curia, the bureaucracy that runs the central administration of the 1.3 billion-strong Roman Catholic Church.

He came to the job, traditionally occupied by a career diplomat, in 2006 with no experience of working in the church's diplomatic corps, which manages its international relations. Benedict chose him, rather, because he had worked under the future pontiff, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in the Vatican's powerful doctrinal office.

"It's all aimed at Bertone," said a monsignor in a key Vatican department who sympathizes with the secretary of state and who sees the leakers as determined to oust him. "It's very clear that they want to get rid of Bertone."

Vatican sources say the rebels have the tacit backing of a former secretary of state, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, an influential power-broker in his own right and a veteran diplomat who served under the late Pope John Paul II for 15 years.

"The diplomatic wing feels that they are the rightful owners of the Vatican," the monsignor who favors Bertone said.

Sodano and Bertone are not mutual admirers, to put it mildly. Neither has commented publicly on the reports.

WHISTLE-BLOWING ARCHBISHOP

The Vatican has been no stranger to controversy in recent years, when uproar over its handling of child sex abuse charges has hampered the church's efforts to stem the erosion of congregations and priestly recruitment in the developed world.

But the latest image crisis could not be closer to home.

It began last month when an Italian television investigative show broadcast private letters to Bertone and the pope from Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, the former deputy governor of the Vatican City and currently the Vatican ambassador in Washington.

The letters, which the Vatican has confirmed are authentic, showed that Vigano was transferred after he exposed what he argued was a web of corruption, nepotism and cronyism linked to the awarding of contracts to contractors at inflated prices.

As deputy governor of the Vatican City for two years from 2009 to 2011, Vigano was the number two official in a department responsible for maintaining the tiny city-state's gardens, buildings, streets, museums and other infrastructure, which are managed separately from the Italian capital which surrounds it.

In one letter, Vigano writes of a smear campaign against him by other Vatican officials who were upset that he had taken drastic steps to clean up the purchasing procedures and begged to stay in the job to finish what he had started.

Bertone responded by removing Vigano from his position three years before the end of his tenure and sending him to the United States, despite his strong resistance.

Other leaks center on the Vatican bank, just as it is trying to put behind it past scandals - including the collapse 30 years ago of Banco Ambrosiano, which entangled it in lurid allegations about money-laundering, freemasons, mafiosi and the mysterious death of Ambrosiano chairman Roberto Calvi - "God's banker."

Today, the Vatican bank, formally known at the Institute for Works of Religion (IOR), is aiming to comply fully with international norms and has applied for the Vatican's inclusion on the European Commission's approved "white list" of states that meet EU standards for total financial transparency.

Bertone was instrumental in putting the bank's current executives in place and any lingering suspicion about it reflects badly on him. The Commission will decide in June and failure to make the list would be an embarrassment for Bertone.

ITALIAN POPE?

Last week, an Italian newspaper that has published some of the leaks ran a bizarre internal Vatican memo that involved one cardinal complaining about another cardinal who spoke about a possible assassination attempt against the pope within 12 months and openly speculated on who the next pope should be.

Bertone's detractors say he has packed the Curia with Italian friends. Some see an attempt to influence the election of the next pope and increase the chances that the papacy returns to Italy after two successive non-Italian popes who have broken what had been an Italian monopoly for over 450 years.

Seven of the 18 new "cardinal electors" -- those aged under 80 eligible to elect a pope -- at this Saturday's consistory are Italian. Six of those work for Bertone in the Curia.

Bertone, as chief administrator, had a key role in advising the pope on the appointments, which raised eyebrows because of the high number of Italian bureaucrats among them.

"There is widespread malaise and delusion about Bertone inside the Curia. It is full of complaints," said the bishop who has close knowledge of Vatican affairs.

"Bertone has had a very brash method of running the Vatican and putting his friends in high places. People could not take it any more and said 'enough' and that is why I think these leaks are coming out now to make him look bad," he said.

POPE "ISOLATED"

Leaked confidential cables sent to the State Department by the U.S. embassy to the Vatican depicted him as a "yes man" with no diplomatic experience or linguistic skills and the 2009 cable suggests that the pope is protected from bad news.

"There is also the question of who, if anyone, brings dissenting views to the pope's attention," read the cable, published by WikiLeaks.

The Vatican sources said some cardinals asked the pope to replace Bertone because of administrative lapses, including the failure to warn the pope that a renegade bishop re-admitted to the Church in 2009 was a well-known Holocaust denier.

But they said the pope, at 84 and increasingly showing the signs of his age, is not eager to break in a new right-hand man.

"It's so complicated and the pope is so helpless," said the monsignor.

The bishop said: "The pope is very isolated. He lives in his own world and some say the information he receives is filtered. He is interested in his books and his sermons but he is not very interested in government."

(Editing by Jon Boyle and Alastair Macdonald)
..

BucEyedPea
02-13-2012, 12:19 PM
Sounds like it's personality based politics more. These things happen in all institutions. They all have their own politics. Heck even families have their politics.

Aries Walker
02-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Bring back medieval Popes. They were much more interesting.

BucEyedPea
02-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Bring back medieval Popes. They were much more interesting.

That'd be some awesome Reality TV! :p

vailpass
02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Jeremy Irons has this shit covered.

Bowser
02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Heck even families have their politics.

Minus the whole influencing a couple of billion people thing. Hopefully.

Garcia Bronco
02-13-2012, 12:40 PM
The "holy church" in Rome is a frequent abuser of God throughout history and most often a lesson in what not to do as opposed to the mission of the church.

It's fund wars and thus killed millions. I wonder how anyone with a straight face coud serve as a memeber of it.


And let's not even start about the reckless abuse of children world wide.

BucEyedPea
02-13-2012, 12:43 PM
Minus the whole influencing a couple of billion people thing. Hopefully.

Unless it's a Mormon or rich Muslim family. :p

Although, not as high as a billion but which could affect that many. Ya' know like binLaden. At least part of his family disowned him.

vailpass
02-13-2012, 12:45 PM
The "holy church" in Rome is a frequent abuser of God throughout history and most often a lesson in what not to do as opposed to the mission of the church.

It's fund wars and thus killed millions. I wonder how anyone with a straight face coud serve as a memeber of it.


And let's not even start about the reckless abuse of children world wide.

LMAO

patteeu
02-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Minus the whole influencing a couple of billion people thing. Hopefully.

Do you think this is having some negative impact on the RCC's flock?

Bowser
02-13-2012, 12:57 PM
Do you think this is having some negative impact on the RCC's flock?

Don't you?

vailpass
02-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Don't you?

This has been going on for 2000 years. No impact on the flock one way or the other. Business as usual.

Bowser
02-13-2012, 01:00 PM
This has been going on for 2000 years. No impact on the flock one way or the other. Business as usual.

(shut up. I'm trying to troll pat)

patteeu
02-13-2012, 01:05 PM
Don't you?

Well, I'm not a believer so I'm probably not the right person to ask. But if I were, I wouldn't be too concerned because I'd understand that this must be part of God's plan and even though it's not obvious how it benefits the one true church, it surely does.

vailpass
02-13-2012, 01:11 PM
(shut up. I'm trying to troll pat)

mea culpa

BucEyedPea
02-13-2012, 01:34 PM
This has been going on for 2000 years. No impact on the flock one way or the other. Business as usual.

Just as Reagan said and why we should not have gotten more involved militarily. Just buy their oil and patrol the regions from our ships in the Gulf area as we did under RR. We're just going to drained and circle the drain eventually trying to create change there. Oh wait, we're circling the drain right now as our empire has the sun set on it since we are broke. Every empire has ended the same way.

ClevelandBronco
02-13-2012, 07:29 PM
Just as Reagan said and why we should not have gotten more involved militarily. Just buy their oil and patrol the regions from our ships in the Gulf area as we did under RR. We're just going to drained and circle the drain eventually trying to create change there. Oh wait, we're circling the drain right now as our empire has the sun set on it since we are broke. Every empire has ended the same way.

If the Vatican has oil, I say invade that bitch.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2012, 08:34 PM
As a practicing catholic....
I don't have any problem saying that I can't stand Pope Benedict. And I'm very glad to hear there's a power struggle, because he's the symbol of everything that's wrong with catholicism today.

La literatura
02-13-2012, 08:44 PM
As a practicing catholic....
I don't have any problem saying that I can't stand Pope Benedict. And I'm very glad to hear there's a power struggle, because he's the symbol of everything that's wrong with catholicism today.

It's the men immediately below Pope Benedict that are involved in this "power struggle."

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2012, 08:51 PM
It's the men immediately below Pope Benedict that are involved in this "power struggle."

Yes. And the fear is that the guy will steal power away to influence the next Pope. But my hope is that dissension is a positive sign that maybe there's a sect that's ready to push for a major change. I know it's a longshot. But I'm hoping for anything.

The fact that the Catholic church chose Benedict as the Pope in a time of crisis is a complete joke.

La literatura
02-13-2012, 08:59 PM
Yes. And the fear is that the guy will steal power away to influence the next Pope. But my hope is that dissension is a positive sign that maybe there's a sect that's ready to push for a major change. I know it's a longshot. But I'm hoping for anything.

The fact that the Catholic church chose Benedict as the Pope in a time of crisis is a complete joke.

I think he's been an excellent, stable leader of the Church during the scandal, but I guess you can't please everyone.

chiefzilla1501
02-13-2012, 09:19 PM
I think he's been an excellent, stable leader of the Church during the scandal, but I guess you can't please everyone.

The problem is that, as a party to the cover up of the scandal, he shouldn't have been in power in the first place. Clearly there is fighting underneath him, which means he's not much of a leader at all. The catholic church is losing its devout followers like crazy. And I can't remember him being visible during... much of anything. The only thing he's done to calm this scandal, is that he's been so invisible that people forget it even happened.

La literatura
02-13-2012, 09:26 PM
The problem is that, as a party to the cover up of the scandal . . .

I'm sorry, but your spin on the story is wildly inaccurate. Ratzinger has repeatedly been shown to be one of the strongest reformers in the Church regarding the sex abuse.

KILLER_CLOWN
02-13-2012, 09:51 PM
I wonder when someone will poison his Tea, it's a tradition after all.

vailpass
02-14-2012, 09:40 AM
Yes. And the fear is that the guy will steal power away to influence the next Pope. But my hope is that dissension is a positive sign that maybe there's a sect that's ready to push for a major change. I know it's a longshot. But I'm hoping for anything.

The fact that the Catholic church chose Benedict as the Pope in a time of crisis is a complete joke.

PJPII casts a very long shadow. I struggled a little with how different Pope Benedict is but have come to accept him for who he is; IMHO he has done a solid job in the toughest times the church has ever faced. I too am looking forward to seeing who the next Holy Father is and am hoping he is a uniter like PJPII.

otherstar
02-14-2012, 10:07 AM
PJPII casts a very long shadow. I struggled a little with how different Pope Benedict is but have come to accept him for who he is; IMHO he has done a solid job in the toughest times the church has ever faced. I too am looking forward to seeing who the next Holy Father is and am hoping he is a uniter like PJPII.

Yep. The successor of JPII didn't have much of a chance to "shine." I suspect his age was part of what got him elected -- the cardinals did not want another long pontificate just yet.

Like you, I think Pope Benedict has done a solid job given what he has to work with and the state of the Church. He's made some solid reforms in several areas of the Church. The "politics" the article talk about are nothing new...this has been going on longer than anyone on this board has been on this earth. I have lots of priest friends, and some who have studied in Rome, it's nothing to blow out of proportion.

Rain Man
02-14-2012, 10:47 AM
This has been going on for 2000 years. No impact on the flock one way or the other. Business as usual.

I haven't read much about the history of the Vatican power structure, but the little I have read is quite entertaining. It's nominally a religious organization, but the truth is that it's a huge and completely unique organization with immense power and wealth, and given its nature and history the politics must be extraordinary at the top level.

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:15 AM
I haven't read much about the history of the Vatican power structure, but the little I have read is quite entertaining. It's nominally a religious organization, but the truth is that it's a huge and completely unique organization with immense power and wealth, and given its nature and history the politics must be extraordinary at the top level.

If an old man doesn't have an old wife that will bicker with them, then they start looking for outlets. Some go after neighborhood boys (see: George and Dennis the Menace), but others turn to sacred religious hierarchical positions. Still others turn to intense games of Euchre at local nursing homes, where the underground market of button and and Werther's hard candy reigns supreme.

stevieray
02-14-2012, 11:20 AM
I too am looking forward to seeing who the next is and am hoping he is a uniter like PJPII.

...my guess is Bishop Arinze from Nigeria.

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:31 AM
...my guess is Bishop Arinze from Nigeria.

If so, he would probably be the oldest person ever elected Pope.

I think it would be awesome to see an American elected pope, but I say that out of my own self-interest and bias.

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:35 AM
I haven't read much about the history of the Vatican power structure, but the little I have read is quite entertaining. It's nominally a religious organization, but the truth is that it's a huge and completely unique organization with immense power and wealth, and given its nature and history the politics must be extraordinary at the top level.

100% truth. The current Showtime series shows one of many chapters...http://www.sho.com/site/borgias/home.sho

On a slightly different note it has long been my desire to visit the Holy City and tour the mysteries of Rome. You are a well traveled man, have you been?
My wife, parents, best buddy and his wife and mom are planning a trip to Rome in 2014.
Would love to get into here somehow: http://asv.vatican.va/

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:36 AM
If an old man doesn't have an old wife that will bicker with them, then they start looking for outlets. Some go after neighborhood boys (see: George and Dennis the Menace), but others turn to sacred religious hierarchical positions. Still others turn to intense games of Euchre at local nursing homes, where the underground market of button and and Werther's hard candy reigns supreme.

We've had our share of Popes die of a heart attack in the middle of coitus though too haven't we?

(double props for mentioning euchre, my all time favorite partner card game)

dirk digler
02-14-2012, 11:37 AM
PJPII casts a very long shadow. I struggled a little with how different Pope Benedict is but have come to accept him for who he is; IMHO he has done a solid job in the toughest times the church has ever faced. I too am looking forward to seeing who the next Holy Father is and am hoping he is a uniter like PJPII.

Joe Paterno learned how to look the other way in regards to child molestation from PJPII.

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:37 AM
Perhaps we could have a black, American pope: Archbishop Gregory of Atlanta.

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:39 AM
...my guess is Bishop Arinze from Nigeria.

I've heard his name mentioned along with Antonelli and others but can't say I know enough to speculate. Why do you think Arinze has the edge?

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:40 AM
Joe Paterno learned how to look the other way in regards to child molestation from PJPII.

This is damn near GoChiefs-level attention whoring. You are way above this.

dirk digler
02-14-2012, 11:44 AM
This is damn near GoChiefs-level attention whoring. You are way above this.

No I am not. Are you saying he had no clue what was going on?

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:48 AM
We've had our share of Popes die of a heart attack in the middle of coitus though too haven't we?

(double props for mentioning euchre, my all time favorite partner card game)

Pope John something in the 10th century allegedly held orgies, worshiped the devil, and died after having paralyzing sex, but those accusations were made by a particular Bishop who was paid and supported by a German rival of the Pope.

otherstar
02-14-2012, 11:50 AM
If so, he would probably be the oldest person ever elected Pope.

I think it would be awesome to see an American elected pope, but I say that out of my own self-interest and bias.

If Pope Benedict dies after Nov. 1 of this year, then it WON'T happen because Cardinal Arinze will be 80 and not eligible to vote or be elected.

otherstar
02-14-2012, 11:50 AM
Perhaps we could have a black, American pope: Archbishop Gregory of Atlanta.

The only strike against him is that he is not a Cardinal and, generally, you have to be a Cardinal to be elected Pope.

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:56 AM
Pope John something in the 10th century allegedly held orgies, worshiped the devil, and died after having paralyzing sex, but those accusations were made by a particular Bishop who was paid and supported by a German rival of the Pope.

"Meanwhile the women, with whom the so-called pope John was accustomed to carry on his voluptuous sports, being many in numbers and noble in rank, stirred up the Romans to overthrow Leo, whom God and they themselves had chosen as supreme and universal pope, and bring John back against into Rome. This they did' but by the mercy of God the venerable pope Leo escaped from their clutches and with a few attendants made his way to the protection of the most pious emperor Otto."

:D

Yes, it was Otto who employed the writer, Liutprand.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Iow9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=john&f=false

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:56 AM
Pope John something in the 10th century allegedly held orgies, worshiped the devil, and died after having paralyzing sex, but those accusations were made by a particular Bishop who was paid and supported by a German rival of the Pope.

"Meanwhile the women, with whom the so-called pope John was accustomed to carry on his voluptuous sports, being many in numbers and noble in rank, stirred up the Romans to overthrow Leo, whom God and they themselves had chosen as supreme and universal pope, and bring John back against into Rome. This they did' but by the mercy of God the venerable pope Leo escaped from their clutches and with a few attendants made his way to the protection of the most pious emperor Otto."

:D

Yes, it was Otto who employed the writer, Liutprand.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Iow9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=john&f=false

Kickin' it roman-style with the Ottoman himself. Jerry Springer is a poseur compared to our real thing. Love it.

vailpass
02-14-2012, 11:58 AM
If Pope Benedict dies after Nov. 1 of this year, then it WON'T happen because Cardinal Arinze will be 80 and not eligible to vote or be elected.

Great point.

La literatura
02-14-2012, 11:58 AM
"But before the holy emperor's forces were all assembled, the Lord decreed that every age should know how justly Pope John had been repudiated by his bishops and all the people, and how unjustly afterwards he had been welcomed back. One night when John was disporting himself with some man's wife outside Rome, the devil dealt him such a violent blow on the temples that he died of the injury within a week. Moreover at the prompting of the devil, who had struck the blow, he refused the last sacraments, as I have frequently heard testified by his friends and kinsmen who were at his death bed."

vailpass
02-14-2012, 12:01 PM
"But before the holy emperor's forces were all assembled, the Lord decreed that every age should know how justly Pope John had been repudiated by his bishops and all the people, and how unjustly afterwards he had been welcomed back. One night when John was disporting himself with some man's wife outside Rome, the devil dealt him such a violent blow on the temples that he died of the injury within a week. Moreover at the prompting of the devil, who had struck the blow, he refused the last sacraments, as I have frequently heard testified by his friends and kinsmen who were at his death bed."

Sounds like the writing of an enemy alright. Good find.
I laughed at "he devil dealt him such a violent blow on the temples that he died" because I was thinking that devil was really the husband:
" John was disporting himself with some man's wife.

HonestChieffan
02-14-2012, 12:05 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VaEKck8oG-c/Tzpc3SI5LeI/AAAAAAABCH8/guOiEFScgIs/s400/theo2.jpg

vailpass
02-14-2012, 12:07 PM
"The Holy Roman Empire. It was neither Holy nor Roman nor was it an Empire. Now talk amongst yourselves."

blaise
02-14-2012, 12:11 PM
Euchre's great. We used to play for a dollar a game in high school study hall.

HonestChieffan
02-14-2012, 03:51 PM
Euchre's great. We used to play for a dollar a game in high school study hall.

I used to play in local Euchre tourneys in Wisconsin. Awesome fun. Good Cold Beer. Brats and and a fun game.

Things sort of went to hell when the country stopped playing Euchre.

vailpass
02-14-2012, 04:59 PM
Cool to see other euchre players. When I went to grad school my roomates were from Duke, Michigan State, Miami U, Dartmouth and Baylor and not one of those bastards had played euchre in undergrad. All those different places and not one knew the game.
It wasn't long before they were hooked and we were having all night euchre tournaments between the 6 of us; winner stays and next team in. Left bower, right bower, lay down, hell yeah.

Rain Man
02-14-2012, 10:53 PM
100% truth. The current Showtime series shows one of many chapters...http://www.sho.com/site/borgias/home.sho

On a slightly different note it has long been my desire to visit the Holy City and tour the mysteries of Rome. You are a well traveled man, have you been?
My wife, parents, best buddy and his wife and mom are planning a trip to Rome in 2014.
Would love to get into here somehow: http://asv.vatican.va/

I've actually never made it to Italy yet. We keep saying we're going to go, but it always ends up being second or third on our priority list. In fact, we were just talking about it again a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not really into religious history, though, so any interest in the Vatican would be more from an architectural or political viewpoint. For a person with an interest in religion, though, I could see it being a big draw.

mikey23545
02-14-2012, 11:56 PM
Perhaps we could have a black, American pope: Archbishop Gregory of Atlanta.

Ah, first an affirmative action POTUS, now an affirmative action Pope.

La literatura
02-15-2012, 06:57 AM
Ah, first an affirmative action POTUS, now an affirmative action Pope.

Huh?

vailpass
02-15-2012, 10:40 AM
I've actually never made it to Italy yet. We keep saying we're going to go, but it always ends up being second or third on our priority list. In fact, we were just talking about it again a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not really into religious history, though, so any interest in the Vatican would be more from an architectural or political viewpoint. For a person with an interest in religion, though, I could see it being a big draw.

Bet you'd like it.
From what I understand you can be an atheist and still find Rome/Italy fascinating due to the architecture, culinary offerings, etc.

Engineer I used to work with (NOT a Christian) had large framed photos, maps from his trips to Rome on is office walls. Used to sit and listen to him explain the different fountains, buildings, etc. and the history behind them. Very interesting. To say nothing of all the priceless historical artifacts the Church of Rome has horded away.

vailpass
02-15-2012, 10:41 AM
Huh?

When you mention the color of his skin as part of the reason you'd like to see him elected you open yourself up to that line of questioning.

La literatura
02-15-2012, 02:05 PM
When you mention the color of his skin as part of the reason you'd like to see him elected you open yourself up to that line of questioning.

I never mentioned his skin as a reason I'd like to see him get elected. In fact, I never even mentioned I'd like to see him get elected. I said "perhaps we could" see a black American pope.

Mikey wants to direct attention to something negative about Barack Obama, and he'll use just about anything as a vehicle to get there.

HonestChieffan
02-15-2012, 04:32 PM
Bet you'd like it.
From what I understand you can be an atheist and still find Rome/Italy fascinating due to the architecture, culinary offerings, etc.

Engineer I used to work with (NOT a Christian) had large framed photos, maps from his trips to Rome on is office walls. Used to sit and listen to him explain the different fountains, buildings, etc. and the history behind them. Very interesting. To say nothing of all the priceless historical artifacts the Church of Rome has horded away.



Rome is incredible. We were there 6 years ago as I recall...time flys. And we will soon be booking another 2 week Italy Trip that will include Rome and the Vatican. Florence is a must and the small walled cities of Tuscany are amazing. Assisi is a must see.

I may have to make it 3 weeks.

BucEyedPea
02-15-2012, 04:50 PM
Bet you'd like it.
From what I understand you can be an atheist and still find Rome/Italy fascinating due to the architecture, culinary offerings, etc.
And the art. Don't forget the art. The Italians have it in their bones. It is rich since the Italians were the early ones to pioneer the Renaissance.
Didn't the Dane from Hollywood say he really enjoyed and he's not religious.

SLAG
02-16-2012, 01:54 PM
...my guess is Bishop Arinze from Nigeria.

From your mouth to Gods Ears - I love Arinze

I love Pope BXVI too - even more than JP II - and I am a Child of JP II that saw him 3x


And Rome is beautiful I was there in 2000 for WYD - and I put my coin in the trevi fountain so I must return.

Assisi was great too

I need to go back when there is not 2Million extra people invading the city -although that made for a unique experience.

Aries Walker
02-17-2012, 08:37 AM
Bring back medieval Popes. They were much more interesting.

"Meanwhile the women, with whom the so-called pope John was accustomed to carry on his voluptuous sports, being many in numbers and noble in rank, stirred up the Romans to overthrow Leo, whom God and they themselves had chosen as supreme and universal pope, and bring John back against into Rome. This they did' but by the mercy of God the venerable pope Leo escaped from their clutches and with a few attendants made his way to the protection of the most pious emperor Otto."

:D

Yes, it was Otto who employed the writer, Liutprand.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Iow9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=john&f=false

See? Toldja.