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Deberg_1990
02-22-2012, 09:41 AM
For the most part i would agree with this. The main differences anymore are fit, finish and features/options. There really are not many lemons anymore.






http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hvGaZXiSG6GL1qG7aXj2dbiCb9DA?docId=c128c79ef7cf4299897e98153f7008a6



For car buyers, it's harder to end up with a lemon
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writers – 1 day ago
DETROIT (AP) — Car shoppers today are less likely to end up with a lemon.

In the past five years, global competition has forced automakers to improve the quality and reliability of their vehicles — everything from inexpensive mini-cars to decked-out luxury SUVs.

The newfound emphasis on quality means fewer problems for owners. It also means more options for buyers, who can buy a car from Detroit or South Korea and know it will hold up like a vehicle from Japan.

With few exceptions, cars are so close on reliability that it's getting harder for companies to charge a premium. So automakers are trying to set themselves apart with sleek, cutting-edge exterior designs and more features such as luxurious interiors, multiple air bags, dashboard computers and touch-screen controls.

"It's a great time to be a consumer," says Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for the TrueCar.com auto pricing website. "You can't really screw up too badly in terms of your vehicle choice."

It wasn't always this close.

In the 1990s, Honda and Toyota dominated in quality, especially in the key American market for small and midsize cars. Japan began building high-quality small cars and tapped into America's growing appetite for fuel efficiency in the 1970sWith their sterling reputation, they were able to charge more than Detroit automakers and cut Detroit's U.S. market share from 78 percent in 1980 to just under 43 percent in 2009, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank.

Cars from Detroit generally weren't as trouble-free in the 1980s and '90s. Hyundai executives concede their quality used to be poor.

However, around 2006, as General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC were heading into financial trouble, they realized that people were shifting away from trucks and sport utility vehicles to smaller cars and car-based crossover SUVs. Gas prices were on the rise again, and the companies, which relied on bigger vehicles for their profits, had few cars to offer.

Fearing the shift, Detroit decided to go after the Japanese and shifted research dollars from trucks to cars after years of neglect. Detroit also realized that Hondas and Toyotas were quieter and more reliable, so they spent more on engineering and parts to close the gap.

Meanwhile, Korean automakers Hyundai Motor Co. and Kia Motors Corp. were busy redesigning their cars, changing to more cutting-edge looks to boost sales. Then, Toyota's reputation was tarnished by a series of safety recalls, and Honda played conservative with new models that looked similar to the old ones.

The newfound emphasis on quality has closed the gap between best and worst in the industry. In 1998, J.D. Power and Associates, which surveys owners about trouble with their cars after three years, found an industry average of 278 problems per 100 vehicles. By this year, the number fell to 132.

In 1998, the most reliable car had 92 problems per 100 vehicles, while the least reliable had 517, a gap of 425. This year the gap closed to 284 problems.

"We don't have total clunkers like we used to," says Dave Sargent, automotive vice president with J.D. Power. Nearly all automakers are improving in quality, but manufacturers that are at the bottom of the rankings are improving more quickly than those at the top, Sargent said.

Detroit's three automakers have narrowed the quality gap considerably against brands from other countries. In 1998, J.D. Power found 42 more problems per 100 vehicles with GM, Ford and Chrysler cars and trucks. This year the gap had narrowed to just 13. While car prices are still rising, the narrow gap keeps Japanese automakers from charging a premium over rivals with similar models.

The competition helps consumers by giving them more choices and more car for their money.

Some examples:

— Compacts: It used to be that the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic were far better than the rest, and they cost more. But the new Chevrolet Cruze and the vastly improved Hyundai Elantra and Ford Focus are giving consumers more options. The Cruze, which went on sale in 2010, is far better than the car it replaced, the Chevrolet Cobalt. GM sold 231,000 Cruzes last year to pass the Civic for second place and come within 9,000 of the Corolla, the small-car sales leader.

While Corollas and Civics were in short supply following Japan's March earthquake, the Cruze offered a good alternative for people who didn't want to wait. In May, Cruze sales surged 40 percent over the Cobalt's year-earlier sales, besting all rivals to become the top-selling U.S. compact that month. The competition has nearly erased the premium paid for Hondas and Toyotas. But that's largely due to price increases by competitors. Since compacts have more features, people are paying more for the Focus, Elantra and Cruze.

For example, in 2007, Toyota got an average of $15,820 for every Corolla it sold, a premium of $1,708 over what GM charged for a Chevy Cobalt. The average Cobalt sold for $14,112.

But last year the roles reversed. The premium instead went to General Motors, which got an average price of $19,858 for the Cruze, which replaced the Cobalt in 2010. That's $2,028 more than the Corolla at $17,830, according to the TrueCar.com website.

— Midsize cars: Toyota's Camry and Honda's Accord used to be dominant. But Ford's Fusion, Nissan's Altima and Hyundai's Sonata are cutting into their sales. The Camry kept its long-held title as the nation's top-selling car last year, but the Altima and Fusion passed the Accord, which is typically No. 2. The price premium paid for Hondas and Toyotas has nearly vanished in midsize cars as well. Like with small cars, people are paying more because of more standard equipment and options.

"It's very hard to find products that aren't good anymore," says Jeremy Anwyl, CEO of the Edmunds.com automotive website. "In safety, performance and quality, the differences just don't have material impact."

First-year law student Randall Rosales found many good choices last year when he began looking for a small luxury SUV to replace his mother's 2008 Infiniti sedan in Dallas. At 22 years old, he's his family's designated car expert. Unlike previous searches, he's found that every vehicle on his list has similar quality and options.

"It's getting harder to choose because every manufacturer, at least in the luxury class, tends to have all the features we consider essential," Rosales said.

In past searches, some automakers, including those based in the U.S., were behind in features like Bluetooth cell phone links and touch-screen controls, Rosales said. But that has pretty much evened out, he said.

He considered the BMW X3, Mercedes GLK350, Lexus RX 350 and Infiniti EX35 before picking an Audi Q5 because the fuel economy of its turbocharged four-cylinder engine and its interior quality set it apart.

With quality, fuel economy and price close to equal across the U.S. market, companies also are pushing the edge on exterior design to differentiate their cars. Honda, for instance, unveiled a daring new Accord coupe in Detroit that looks like a far more expensive car, while Ford did the same with its new Fusion.

"It's got to be beautiful," says Mary Barra, GM's product development chief who led work on a new Cadillac small luxury sports sedan.

Another way to stand apart is to lower a car's base price, sacrificing profits to gain market share, at least initially.

That's what Chrysler is hoping for with the new Dodge Dart compact, which starts around $16,000, about $700 less than a Cruze and $500 less than the Ford Focus, the Dart's two main competitors.

CEO Sergio Marchionne says the company won't make much money on a basic Dart. But the lower price will get the car on shopping lists, and Marchionne is hoping people will add features and pay more.

Chrysler in the past spent little on compact-car development and hasn't offered a competitive one for years. But being late has its benefits. Chrysler learned by avoiding mistakes made by other companies, says Ralph Gilles, the company's chief designer.

"Coming last to the party, you can bring a nice bottle of wine," he says.

Amnorix
02-22-2012, 10:08 AM
I historically haven't bought US because of the quality gap. Buy American is a great motto, but when you realize that you're buying crap and that most foreign cars are mostly made in the US anyway, then I'm going to go where the quality is.

Many more articles like this one and I'll start seriously consider US manufacturers again.

Toadkiller
02-22-2012, 10:13 AM
I made the mistake and bought a 1999 Chrysler 300m. It was the biggest lemon in the world, everything went wrong with it, constantly in the shop. It had 30k miles on it when I finally just donated the damn thing to charity. I'd never buy another american car just based on that one experience, which is sad really.

Okie_Apparition
02-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Racist or not
They all look alike to me

jiveturkey
02-22-2012, 10:13 AM
I really like what Ford is doing these days. For years I thought that they were ugly but they've turned a corner.

loochy
02-22-2012, 10:14 AM
I made the mistake and bought a 1999 Chrysler 300m. It was the biggest lemon in the world, everything went wrong with it, constantly in the shop. It had 30k miles on it when I finally just donated the damn thing to charity. I'd never buy another american car just based on that one experience, which is sad really.

So Chrysler makes all American cars? That's news to me.

Rain Man
02-22-2012, 10:18 AM
I really like what Ford is doing these days. For years I thought that they were ugly but they've turned a corner.

Yeah, they've got some pretty nice looking vehicles. I'm not an SUV guy (or crossover or whatever), but if I was the Edge really seems to be nice for the money.

Dodge also has some fun looking vehicles. I've had them for rentals occasionally and liked them.

rageeumr
02-22-2012, 10:18 AM
I have had a couple of buddies that have had lemon-like experiences, but they were used cars.

One guy bought a Grand Cherokee from the auction that had horrendous electrical issues. No matter how many times he took it in, there would always be some new dummy light on or sensor malfunctioning.

Another guy I know bought a used BMW 3 Series, apparently without checking the CarFax. It had been a buyback, and he was constantly having little problems with it.

Frazod
02-22-2012, 10:20 AM
I'd have to agree that the quality of our vehicles has improved a great deal. The last three cars I've owned dating back to 2003 (all American-manufactured) have never spent a day in the shop beyond routine maintenance. Before that, My '99 Monte Carlo developed a phantom electrical problem which caused it to not start immediately on really cold days, and the service guys were never able to identify what was wrong with it. I got annoyed and traded it immediately after leaving the dealership, but it ran fine other than that. The last mechanical problem I had was with a used Olds '92 Achieva - the fuel injectors got fried and had to be replaced, about a month after the fucking warranty expired ($912 repair bill - one of those numbers I'll never forget :# ). Had a couple of much older vehicles that died on me, but they were really old, cheap and crappy models from the late 70s/early 80s.

Radar Chief
02-22-2012, 10:28 AM
One guy bought a Grand Cherokee from the auction that had horrendous electrical issues. No matter how many times he took it in, there would always be some new dummy light on or sensor malfunctioning.


Sounds like a flood car.
Once one gets submerged you’ll never work out all the electrical gremlins.

listopencil
02-22-2012, 10:46 AM
I have an old Ford pick up, but the cars I use for daily driving in reverse chronological order:

Toyota
Hyundai
Volvo
Nissan
Datsun
Toyota

Saul Good
02-22-2012, 10:47 AM
Three things I have been hearing since I was in kindergarten.

1. The US will switch to the metric system

2. Soccer is going to become the country's most popular sport

3. American cars have caught up with Japanese cars

loochy
02-22-2012, 10:50 AM
Three things I have been hearing since I was in kindergarten.

1. Global warming is a real threat to us

2. Women are equal to men

3. Japanese cars are always superior to American cars

Rain Man
02-22-2012, 10:53 AM
Three things I have been hearing since I was in kindergarten.

1. Global warming is a real threat to us

2. Women are equal to men

3. Japanese cars are always superior to American cars

No, no, no.

1. Women are a real threat to us.

2. Global warming is superior to American cars.

3. Japanese cars are equal to men.

Toadkiller
02-22-2012, 10:54 AM
So Chrysler makes all American cars? That's news to me.


Point out where I said Chrysler made all american cars. I said that one bad experience with an american car has turned me off all american cars. Once bitten and all that. Yes it is not fair to lump them all into one but I never had any problems with the Nissans, toyotas or subarus I have owned so will stick to what has worked for me. I debate buying a Ford truck all the time, hear they are great, but still am leery as shit.

loochy
02-22-2012, 10:58 AM
Point out where I said Chrysler made all american cars. I said that one bad experience with an american car has turned me off all american cars. Once bitten and all that. Yes it is not fair to lump them all into one but I never had any problems with the Nissans, toyotas or subarus I have owned so will stick to what has worked for me. I debate buying a Ford truck all the time, hear they are great, but still am leery as shit.

You didn't say that. It just bothers me that you associate a failure from Chrysler with other brands.

loochy
02-22-2012, 11:00 AM
No, no, no.

1. Women are a real threat to us.

2. Global warming is superior to American cars.

3. Japanese cars are equal to men.

1.) American women are superior to Japanese men.

2.) Global warming is caused by American cars.

3.) I like steak.

listopencil
02-22-2012, 11:04 AM
1.) American women are superior to Japanese men.

2.) Global warming is caused by American cars.

3.) I like steak.


1) Japanese women love American men

2) windows down with the heater blowing full blast

3) the cake is a lie

Rain Man
02-22-2012, 11:04 AM
1.) American women are superior to Japanese men.

2.) Global warming is caused by American cars.

3.) I like steak.

1. American women are inferior to Japanese robot women.

2. Global warming is caused by American men eating steak.

3. Winnebagos are better than cars.

DaKCMan AP
02-22-2012, 11:06 AM
1. DaKCMan AP is superior and Awesome.

2. Women think DaKCMan AP is Awesome.

3. Global warming is not Awesome.

loochy
02-22-2012, 11:09 AM
1. DaKCMan AP is superior and Awesome.

2. Women think DaKCMan AP is Awesome.

3. Global warming is not Awesome.

1.) DaKCManAP is a Japanese robot woman.

2.) Global warming is caused by the hot air from DaKCMan's yakkity yak.

3.) Cars transform into robots when Megan Fox is around.

Carlota69
02-22-2012, 11:35 AM
I had a lemon, a 2004 BMW 320i. It was in the shop for over 3 months the first year I had it. I was getting ready to go after BMW under the lemon law and thats when BMW came to me and offered me a new car, under my same terms of loan, just another year added to loan. All in all, BMW (especially the service dept here in Vegas) was really good to me.

scott free
02-22-2012, 11:40 AM
As long as people still have a hand in their making, there will be lemons, albeit fewer than in years past as the technology continues to improve.

qabbaan
02-22-2012, 11:44 AM
I have had a couple of buddies that have had lemon-like experiences, but they were used cars.

One guy bought a Grand Cherokee from the auction that had horrendous electrical issues. No matter how many times he took it in, there would always be some new dummy light on or sensor malfunctioning.

Another guy I know bought a used BMW 3 Series, apparently without checking the CarFax. It had been a buyback, and he was constantly having little problems with it.

Had the same problem with a jeep. Crazy electrical problems often, but some days nothing wrong. Had a local mechanic tell me he would never recommend a Jeep or Chrysler to anyone other than a Ram truck.

Extra Point
02-22-2012, 01:06 PM
Chrysler is still crap, since the 70s.

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 01:21 PM
Chrysler is still crap, since the 70s.

How many have you owned? :hmmm:

Japan began building high-quality small cars and tapped into America's growing appetite for fuel efficiency in the 1970s
I stopped reading here, as this is pure bullshit. They were selling junk as well, but it got better mileage. There was never a more troublesome pile of shit sold to the American public than the early Civics. The Mitsubishis were close, and I bought a 78 Celica almost new that was always giving trouble. In fact, I ran across the parking "pawl" that I had to remove from it, just this last weekend.
As Electronics technology improved, all cars started getting better in the 80s.

Frazod
02-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Chrysler is still crap, since the 70s.

I knew this draw Ed out. LMAO

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 01:30 PM
I knew this draw Ed out. LMAO

:D Actually, Obama gave them to the Italians so I really don't give a shit anymore and have given up changing any minds around here, even though I have owned many of them.

But his statement was so matter of fact, I am curious if he is basing it from experience, or something he read.

The earlier poster, toadkiller, that had problems with his 99 300M, is similar to the experience that Simplex3 had with his. I had an 02 300m (little brother has it now) and had only one issue, a shifter cable.

Our 07 Nitro has had at least a dozen issues, I swear it was manufactured on a late Friday and finished Monday morning. They were all parts failures, from outside vendors though, not one Mopar made part. Odd, maybe they pulled the parts from a reject bin.

I have had zero on my Challenger, but it was made when employee moral was very high at the Brampton plant, where the majority of their cars are made. (300s, Chargers and Challengers)

I doubt I ever buy another one, but my inventory is pretty large right now. :D

whoman69
02-22-2012, 01:34 PM
Most of the problems with vehicles reported in the last few years have been on foreign cars.

Frosty
02-22-2012, 01:36 PM
I had an '00 Jeep Cherokee that I bought in '01 that was an awesome rig. I had it for three trouble free years but had to trade as it was too small for my growing family (besides - I wanted a pick up). My brother-in-law had a 2002 (IIRC) Jeep Liberty that they bought new and put almost 100K miles on. It was trouble free also and I was impressed when I rode in it at around 80K miles that it was completely rattle and wear free. It was as solid as new. It seems like the lemons are just the luck of the draw.

I don't think there is a brand now that I would avoid, other than maybe the European brands (I have read of poorer quality and higher cost of repairs). I've had almost 50 cars since I was 15 in almost all of the non-luxury brands and the only newer car that I have had that was a monumental piece of shit was a '83 Ford Turbo T-Bird (electrical problems). Guess I've been lucky

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Most of the problems with vehicles reported in the last few years have been on foreign cars.

Saying that on the Planet is like saying something bad about Lenny, DT and Brett all in the same sentence.

mikey23545
02-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Point out where I said Chrysler made all american cars. I said that one bad experience with an american car has turned me off all american cars. Once bitten and all that. Yes it is not fair to lump them all into one but I never had any problems with the Nissans, toyotas or subarus I have owned so will stick to what has worked for me. I debate buying a Ford truck all the time, hear they are great, but still am leery as shit.

Chrysler is still crap, since the 70s.

Hmm...My wife's niece owned a 300 for a few years before trading it in on a Volvo which promptly blew up. She never had a lick of trouble with it.

Both me and my wife have owned Sebring convertibles for almost 10 years, and they have both been almost completely trouble free. And for work I used an old Windstar van for many years which was dependable as hell until the Great Crash of aught-nine. (operator error)

Perhaps you two need to learn about the usefulness of large sample sizes.

morphius
02-22-2012, 01:47 PM
How many have you owned? :hmmm:


I stopped reading here, as this is pure bullshit. They were selling junk as well, but it got better mileage. There was never a more troublesome pile of shit sold to the American public than the early Civics. The Mitsubishis were close, and I bought a 78 Celica almost new that was always giving trouble. In fact, I ran across the parking "pawl" that I had to remove from it, just this last weekend.
As Electronics technology improved, all cars started getting better in the 80s.
Wasn't really till the 80's that the Japanese brands hit their stride. Wasn't every car built in the late 70's a steaming pile?

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 01:54 PM
Wasn't really till the 80's that the Japanese brands hit their stride. Wasn't every car built in the late 70's a steaming pile?

Yes, yes they were. I bought a 77 Dodge van new, that cured me of Mopars for a long time. They couldn't fix it, wouldn't fix it, and thought I was rude expecting them to fix it.

Then we got the Celica, OMG, the only difference is that the problems were now metric. That ****ing car would overheat no matter what you did, even when it was cool out. The Japanese were fairly new to automatics at that time, and I had to pull the parking pawl out to stop the noises.

We then got a 79 Gran Prix, and guess what? It was a nice car, very nice car but it was one that had a Chevy SB in it. That was a big deal at the time. You would think they had put a communist motor in it. The biggest problem with it, the paint wouldn't stay on it.

Radar Chief
02-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Wasn't really till the 80's that the Japanese brands hit their stride. Wasn't every car built in the late 70's a steaming pile?

Pretty much, which coincides with the time frame the EPA started enforcing ever increasing restrictions on vehicle emissions. They started in ’75 and all vehicle manufacturers had to scramble to meet standards. Of course the Japanese had an easier time of it because something like a 2.0L four cylinder engine is just spitting out fewer emissions per engine cycle than something like a 5.0L V-8 engine.

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Pretty much, which coincides with the time frame the EPA started enforcing ever increasing restrictions on vehicle emissions. They started in ’75 and all vehicle manufacturers had to scramble to meet standards. Of course the Japanese had an easier time of it because something like a 2.0L four cylinder engine is just spitting out fewer emissions per engine cycle than something like a 5.0L V-8 engine.

Good call.
74 was also a landmark year for emissions, it just killed Detroit and the big v8s. The first year of the catalytic converter. GM decompressed their Sb so much it was making well less than 200 hp.

Chrysler and Ford both about broke them selves trying to make solid state engine control modules work under the hood with all that heat. Remember the "lean burn?"

KCinNY
02-22-2012, 02:21 PM
I was raised on the notion that American cars had turned into junk and Japanese was the way to go. This was after watching my family endure the Godawful '76 Plymouth Volare for years. Mom got a new Accord in '81...it was relaible and fuel efficient so she was a lifetime Honda owner thereafter.

My first car as a young adult was a Volkswagon Scirocco, which was nothing but trouble from day one. Moved on to a Celica which was great and then an Accord which was also great.

When my wife became pregnant...she decided that we needed a bigger "family" car a small SUV or minivan. I tried to talk her into the Honda CRV, but she liked the Ford Escape and wouldn't budge...so that's what we got. Turned out to be a perfect car. Never needing major repairs over the span of several years. I then replaced my little Toyota with a used Ford Taurus which was equally great. The Taurus has since been replaced by a Ford Explorer which...at least so far...has been awesome. Love driving it too.

Point is...prejudice against any country's automobile industry is likely to be narrow minded. All car companies make some good cars and some cars that are misconceptions. Best plan is to do your research before you buy.

rageeumr
02-22-2012, 02:21 PM
Had the same problem with a jeep. Crazy electrical problems often, but some days nothing wrong. Had a local mechanic tell me he would never recommend a Jeep or Chrysler to anyone other than a Ram truck.

I posted about it on here, but I bought a 3 year old Wrangler Unlimited in October and the dash lit up like a Christmas tree literally on my way home from the dealership. I have heard a lot about these Jeep electrical demons, so I took advantage of CarMax's 5 day return policy.

Frazod
02-22-2012, 02:28 PM
I remember my mom bought a '75 Monte Carlo that had a catalytic converter. Back then unleaded was more expensive than regular, and she refused to pay the extra amount. The regular nozzle wouldn't fit correctly, so she just jammed it in until whatever they put inside the hole broke and used regular.

verbaljitsu
02-22-2012, 02:34 PM
As someone who fights with car dealerships on a regular basis, THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY still lemons out there.

It is impossible to make perfect machines all the time. The difference between the good companies and the bad ones is in the error rate, and how they will stand behind the product.

In some ways, the fact that new cars are getting better, is exacerbating problems in the used car market. Cars can survive a lot. But they shouldn't always "survive" calamities as anything other than salvage. Flooded cars, rebuilt wrecks, tampered with odometers, title laundering, fraud committed by insurance companies, salvage sold not-as-salvage, and other schemes are an epidemic.

As new cars get better and more expensive, the ceiling on vehicle prices get higher. The cars last longer (and thus stay in the market longer), coupled with a bad economy, and fraud in used cars is maybe more profitable now than ever.

And that doesn't even have anything to do with the financing part of the equation, which is where many (most?) actually get screwed. The next great financial crisis in this country will center around sub-prime auto loans.

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 02:46 PM
I remember my mom bought a '75 Monte Carlo that had a catalytic converter. Back then unleaded was more expensive than regular, and she refused to pay the extra amount. The regular nozzle wouldn't fit correctly, so she just jammed it in until whatever they put inside the hole broke and used regular.

Damn, this explains a lot. I bet she tanned your behind a few times. LMAO

stevieray
02-22-2012, 03:05 PM
I'd say there are more lemon owners than lemon cars.

Frazod
02-22-2012, 03:06 PM
Damn, this explains a lot. I bet she tanned your behind a few times. LMAO

Mom was not to be trifled with. :spank:

loochy
02-22-2012, 03:34 PM
I was raised on the notion that American cars had turned into junk and Japanese was the way to go. This was after watching my family endure the Godawful '76 Plymouth Volare for years. Mom got a new Accord in '81...it was relaible and fuel efficient so she was a lifetime Honda owner thereafter.

My first car as a young adult was a Volkswagon Scirocco, which was nothing but trouble from day one. Moved on to a Celica which was great and then an Accord which was also great.

When my wife became pregnant...she decided that we needed a bigger "family" car a small SUV or minivan. I tried to talk her into the Honda CRV, but she liked the Ford Escape and wouldn't budge...so that's what we got. Turned out to be a perfect car. Never needing major repairs over the span of several years. I then replaced my little Toyota with a used Ford Taurus which was equally great. The Taurus has since been replaced by a Ford Explorer which...at least so far...has been awesome. Love driving it too.

Point is...prejudice against any country's automobile industry is likely to be narrow minded. All car companies make some good cars and some cars that are misconceptions. Best plan is to do your research before you buy.

Thank you for not being the typical car douche