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the Talking Can
02-22-2012, 02:17 PM
pro football focus has released their rankings from 32nd to 17th...rest come out tomorrow
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

Chiefs are ranked....in the top 16, so aren't mentioned today

2010 ranking is in parentheses, Giants were 31st which confirms beyond any doubt that Eli is a damn good QB

31. New York Giants (13th)

Run Rank 24th, Pass Rank 32nd, Penalties Rank 7th

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn’t just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants’ line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting … outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It’s hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.



20. San Francisco 49ers (11th)

Run Rank 8th, Pass Rank 26th, Penalties Rank 18th

The 49ers line came in for more praise than it was due because of their dominance of the NFC West. While it does have plenty of talent and upside (particularly on the left), it’s a long way from delivering on it. They need to fix the problematic right guard spot, after Mr. Boom-or-Bust, Chilo Rachal (-8.2), was all bust this year. This line isn’t miles away from being very good, but it will need Anthony Davis (-15.0) to start playing more consistently.

Best Player: Since coming into the league, Mike Iupati (+9.6) has looked like he has belonged. A top talent.

Worst Player: You have to wonder about how bad the rest of the 49ers’ guards are in practice in that they’re forced to turn to Adam Snyder (-24.4).

milkman
02-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Chicago's 32nd ranking makes Jay Cutler's performance until he was injured all the more remarkable as well.

O.city
02-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Wonder where we would be ranked if we just added a RT?

SNR
02-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Chiefs are in the top 16 which confirms beyond any doubt that Cassel is a damn terrible QB

Pasta Giant Meatball
02-22-2012, 04:23 PM
But, but, but the Chiefs have a horrible, shitty O-line.

WV
02-22-2012, 04:26 PM
We had the ball so little its no wonder we're ranked higher than we should be. And there's no way the Giants line is this bad either.

SNR
02-22-2012, 04:27 PM
But seriously... we need upgrades. Two of our players are has-beens, and one of our guys is a never-will.

But if people want to point fingers at our piss poor production on offense in 2011 in spite of offensive weapons out the wazoo, they better not be pointing them at the offensive line.

milkman
02-22-2012, 04:31 PM
We had the ball so little its no wonder we're ranked higher than we should be. And there's no way the Giants line is this bad either.

These ranking have nothing to do with how much you have the ball.

These rankings are based on the observations of people whose job is to review tape of each indivual player on the line and grade out how they performed on each play.

And yes, the Giants line was actually that bad.

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 04:32 PM
PFF is just terrible. I really don't understand why anyone puts any credence into what they say. The Giants are NOT the 2nd worst line in the NFL.. that's just garbage.

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 04:34 PM
These ranking have nothing to do with how much you have the ball.

These rankings are based on the observations of people whose job is to review tape of each indivual player on the line and grade out how they performed on each play.

And yes, the Giants line was actually that bad.

Except they have zero qualifications.. I'd take your opinion 1000 times over these yahoos. If watching tape alone made one an expert then GoChiefs wouldn't be as piss ignorant as he is about the game.

And NO the Giants line was NOT that bad.. I'd say they would fall in the 25-27 range but certainly not 2nd to last.

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 04:39 PM
The problem with garbage "stats" sites like this is that they don't KNOW what is supposed to have happened on every play so they basically GUESS. The only people who can make these types of judgements and be 100% accurate all of the time are the Chiefs coaching staff. Certainly not GoChiefs in his parent's basement.

BoneKrusher
02-22-2012, 04:39 PM
yep, this just confirms what we all know, we need a QB.

milkman
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Except they have zero qualifications.. I'd take your opinion 1000 times over these yahoos. If watching tape alone made one an expert then GoChiefs wouldn't be as piss ignorant as he is about the game.

And NO the Giants line was NOT that bad.. I'd say they would fall in the 25-27 range but certainly not 2nd to last.

No system is perfect, but from what I saw, the Giants O-Line was bad.

They might have them rated a little low, but they looked like a bottom 10 unit, especially early in the season.

They did improve late in the season, and that helped in their run to the SB.

But they weren't good.

whoman69
02-22-2012, 04:45 PM
The problem with garbage "stats" sites like this is that they don't KNOW what is supposed to have happened on every play so they basically GUESS. The only people who can make these types of judgements and be 100% accurate all of the time are the Chiefs coaching staff. Certainly not GoChiefs in his parent's basement.

It is a finished basement. Does that give him any more expertise?

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 04:48 PM
No system is perfect, but from what I saw, the Giants O-Line was bad.

They might have them rated a little low, but they looked like a bottom 10 unit, especially early in the season.

They did improve late in the season, and that helped in their run to the SB.

But they weren't good.

No they definitely weren't good by any stretch. As I said, 25-27 range is where I'd put them.

I just hate "systems" like PFF where they try to pass of garbage guesses as if they are STATS and FACTS. They aren't, they are guesses and opinions.

SuperChief
02-22-2012, 04:50 PM
PFF is just terrible. I really don't understand why anyone puts any credence into what they say. The Giants are NOT the 2nd worst line in the NFL.. that's just garbage.

Yep . . . that's why NFL teams use their stats. Because they're just terrible.

Trolling over.

milkman
02-22-2012, 04:55 PM
No they definitely weren't good by any stretch. As I said, 25-27 range is where I'd put them.

I just hate "systems" like PFF where they try to pass of garbage guesses as if they are STATS and FACTS. They aren't, they are guesses and opinions.

Like any stat, it's a tool to give an idea on how things are.

But you have to watch yourself to really have an educated opinion about any of it.

It's like David Carr and the Houston Texans.

If you look at sacks allowed while he was the QB, you'd come away thinking those guys had to be the worst O-Line ever.

But if you watch, you'd come away understanding that, while they weren't good, they weren't nearly as bad as David Carr made them look with those numbers.

BryanBusby
02-22-2012, 04:56 PM
No they definitely weren't good by any stretch. As I said, 25-27 range is where I'd put them.

I just hate "systems" like PFF where they try to pass of garbage guesses as if they are STATS and FACTS. They aren't, they are guesses and opinions.

They actually put some logic behind how they grade stuff out, compared to ESPN and its god awful "clutch" rating.

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 04:56 PM
Yep . . . that's why NFL teams use their stats. Because they're just terrible.

Trolling over.

#1 I would like an NFL team to confirm this

#2 even if some teams use their stats, I doubt they take them too seriously. I know the #1 external source for their stats and it certainly isn't PFF.

Some stats from PFF has some limited comparative value but the idea that it is factual and not guesswork is ludicrous. Unless of course they someohow have access to every NFL playbook, blocking scheme and transcript of what exactly was called on each play.

HemiEd
02-22-2012, 04:59 PM
This is not possible. I read that all of Cassel's problems are due to the poor play of the Offensive line, so the Chiefs have to be at the bottom.

SNR
02-22-2012, 05:00 PM
No they definitely weren't good by any stretch. As I said, 25-27 range is where I'd put them.

I just hate "systems" like PFF where they try to pass of garbage guesses as if they are STATS and FACTS. They aren't, they are guesses and opinions.If it isn't for a certain San Francisco kick returner, they don't even make it to the Super Bowl, and everybody forgets about their post-season success that they had.

In the regular season they couldn't run the ball worth shit in spite of having a pretty productive runner in Bradshaw, and didn't protect Eli Manning that well. They were a pretty awful line. The 31st ranking isn't an unbelievable ranking.

the Talking Can
02-22-2012, 06:02 PM
PFF is just terrible. I really don't understand why anyone puts any credence into what they say. The Giants are NOT the 2nd worst line in the NFL.. that's just garbage.

they had the 32 ranked running game in the league

and given how many incredible plays Eli made under pressure, it's probable they are worse than the evaluation says...imagine an average QB behind that line...it could have an epic disaster

Chiefnj2
02-22-2012, 06:08 PM
Does anyone on this board think Casey Weigman was a top 5 pass blocking center last year?

beach tribe
02-22-2012, 06:16 PM
Like any stat, it's a tool to give an idea on how things are.

But you have to watch yourself to really have an educated opinion about any of it.

It's like David Carr and the Houston Texans.

If you look at sacks allowed while he was the QB, you'd come away thinking those guys had to be the worst O-Line ever.

But if you watch, you'd come away understanding that, while they weren't good, they weren't nearly as bad as David Carr made them look with those numbers.
So what does that say about Eli then?
Interesting.

milkman
02-22-2012, 06:24 PM
So what does that say about Eli then?
Interesting.

The Giants were a sieve, and Eli avoided a lot of sacks by making quick reads, quick decisions, and at times was more mobile than you thought he could be.

David Carr locked in on his primary receiver, and held the ball too long.

Manning was sacked, what, 25-26 times this past season even though that line was like a dam with the floodgates open.

O.city
02-22-2012, 06:32 PM
IMO the Chiefs line, would be a ton better by replacing Wiegmann. I think Lilja would actually be serviceable with Hudson at C.


We really just need to replace the RT, thru the draft or free agency.

Dylan
02-22-2012, 09:57 PM
If it isn't for a certain San Francisco kick returner, they don't even make it to the Super Bowl, and everybody forgets about their post-season success that they had.

In the regular season they couldn't run the ball worth shit in spite of having a pretty productive runner in Bradshaw, and didn't protect Eli Manning that well. They were a pretty awful line. The 31st ranking isn't an unbelievable ranking.

The Giants played a great football team. They both played classic smash mouth football. Eli faced one of the best defensive eight man fronts in the NFL -- in Candlestick Park and in the pouring rain. Eli was hit 20 times but was never slow to get up. But anytime you can get the ball back in Eli’s hands, you stand a great chance of winning.

Eli torched the 49ers on third and long all day that I lost count. With eight minutes remaining in the fourth quarter, faced with third and 15 from the 49ers 18 yard line, Eli delivered a touchdown pass in the back of the endzone to Manningham. "Manning ended up 32-for-58 for 316 yards, two touchdowns and no turnovers."

The Giants front four came up big on third downs. "The 49ers would finish 1-for-13 in that situation." That’s bad football.

Outside of the two big pays by Alex Smith to Vernon Davis, the 49ers didn’t have an answer for the Giants defensive when it was time to move the ball downfield.

To say "If it isn't for a certain San Francisco kick returner, they don't even make it to the Super Bowl," I strongly disagree. Players who make mistakes are not considered lucky. Players that have the opportunities to capitalize on the mistakes of others are disciplined and well coached.

It is important to note, that player is rookie linebacker Jacquian Williams, who reached out and stripped the ball from Kyle Williams. But also give credit to Jacquian Williams and Chase Blackburn who made two big plays on Vernon Davis over the middle in the 4th quarter.


On third-and-7, Alex Smith dropped back to pass and before he could survey the field, Giants linebacker Mathias Kiwanuka blitzed through the offensive line to maul him.

With Kiwanuka clinging on to the quarterback, Osi Umenyiora joined in and the two combined for the 10-yard sack. It was another 49ers’ third down and another failed attempt to convert — 10 in a row to be exact.

The 49ers would finish 1-for-13 in that situation, the lone conversion coming on a meaningless play with the Giants in prevent as time expired in regulation.

“That’s what we do,” defensive end Dave Tollefson said after the Giants' 20-17 overtime victory in the NFC Championship Game tonight. “On third down it’s party time for the defensive line. We get after the quarterback.”

The Giants were able to have success by stuffing the 49ers on first and second down to force third-and-longs — the exact situation the Giants’ daunted pass rush feasts on. In obvious passing situations, the Giants put in their four defensive ends on the line — known as their NASCAR package — and tell them one thing: get to the quarterback and hit him.

“That’s always our goal: get three-and-outs,” Tuck said. “Make sure that they can’t get into any rhythm there and most of the time it flows downhill from there.”

Whoever said defense doesn't win championships had better be watching the Giants / 49ers game.

Just my opinion

Dylan
02-22-2012, 10:21 PM
I think you may find this article interesting:

It's the Offensive Line, Stupid

The NFL's Scoreboard Fireworks May Be Rooted in Good Blocking; Houston's Myers Gets a 21.8

By REED ALBERGOTTI
SEPTEMBER 21, 2011

All the record-breaking, high-flying fireworks produced by NFL offenses during the season's first two weeks has everyone cooking up theories around the backyard barbeque.

But there's a pretty good argument to be made that in a year with a truncated offseason, the primary force behind all this prolific offense has to be the groups of players who make up at least 45% of every offensive unit: The linemen.

Every piece of choreography in the NFL's ballet of brutality starts with these five heavily padded oafs. "Your big guys are really the foundation of what you do on offense," says Tony Boselli, a former offensive lineman. "Teams that have a better, or at least a solid offensive line have a better chance."

The play of offensive lines is hard to measure. While teams go to great lengths to grade linemen, there are no official statistics presented to the public.

Some of this is a result of football's secretive nature. It's difficult to evaluate the play of a lineman without knowing what his blocking assignment was on a given play—and that's something no team is going to offer up. Without knowing what a player was supposed to do, it's impossible to know for sure whether he should get credit for making the correct block.

Not all members of an O-line have the same level of responsibility, either. Left tackles, for instance, have to block the toughest pass rushers, while centers often have help from the guards to their right and left.

The only way to judge this is to employ someone with an educated eye to spend hour after mind-numbing hour watching every lineman's performance on every play. For the past three full NFL seasons, a small outfit called Pro Football Focus has been doing just that.

Based, quite incongruously, in the U.K, this company has a staff of 18 analysts who break down every game. Four are responsible for grading offensive linemen and together they've tabulated about 500,000 blocks over three full seasons.

Each analyst spends somewhere around six hours per game studying film, according to Pro Football Focus's founder, Neil Hornsby. Each time a lineman attempts a block on a running play, he's given a grade on whether or not he was successful. On passing plays, the linemen are graded down when they allow a sack, a hit on the quarterback or defensive pressure that affects the play. The grades are based on how a player's score compares to the overall average for the position.

"There is absolutely no guessing," says Hornsby. "We don't grade down anybody unless we're 90% sure what was supposed to happen."

The company makes some data available to the public, but the company's more-advanced stats are held back and are purchased by NFL teams and analysts.

Hornsby says five or six players have subscribed to Pro Football Focus and haven't been shy about voicing displeasure if they believe they've been erroneously graded.

After last year's Super Bowl, he says, Green Bay Packers lineman Josh Sitton disputed a sack that was credited against him (Hornsby agreed and changed his score). Earlier this month, he says, another lineman emailed him to say he wasn't responsible for a hit to his to his quarterback that was tied to him. Again, after further review, Hornsby removed it.

The lobbying only goes so far, he says. "They don't always get what they want."

Hornsby's effort is something of a noble quest—an attempt to decode the mysteries of offensive lines for causal fans. And there are some signs that a team whose linemen score well by these rankings can expect to win a fair number of games—if not rightnow, then soon.

According to last year's Pro Football Focus grades, the New York Jets had the best offensive line. The team rushed for 2,374 yards, the fourth highest total in the league, and only allowed 28 sacks, the eighth lowest. The Jets went on to lose in the AFC title game. The New England Patriots, who came in No. 3, saw quarterback Tom Brady sacked only 25 times (third-best in the NFL) and win the league's MVP award. The Baltimore Ravens (No. 4) also made the playoffs.

Based on last year's grades and this year's roster moves, the best starting offensive line this year belongs to the Houston Texans, who finished No. 2 last season. Despite missing the playoffs last year, they were No. 4 in the NFL in total yards through the air and No. 7 in run yardage.

According to the numbers, the Texans have two huge stars: center Chris Myers received a score of 21.8 and left guard Wade Smith earned a 17.8. To put that in perspective: The average overall grade given by Pro Football Focus was -3.0
Whle the season is young, the Texans rank No. 9 in passing yards, No. 5 in rushing and No. 9 in fewest sacks. Most telling may be their ability to run this effectively without their injured star running back Arian Foster. The Texans rushed for 167 yards against Indianapolis in their first week and 138 against Miami.

Another team to watch: the Ravens, who are currently the league's top run-blocking team. After upgrading their line this season, Baltimore moved up in the Pro Football Focus grades from No. 4 last year to No. 2 as presently constituted. The team moved left tackle Michael Oher (-10.8) to the right side and brought in veteran Bryant McKinnie (3.8) to fill his place.

In the opening game against Pittsburgh, Baltimore rushed for a phenomenal 170 yards against last year's No. 1 defense against the run. (The following week, the Ravens inexplicably managed to gain only 45 yards on the ground and 197 through the air in a loss to Tennessee).

Three of this season's five teams with the highest-ranked offensive lines (the Texans, Jets and New England Patriots) are also undefeated. The Cincinnati Bengals, who are ranked fifth, upset the Cleveland Browns and narrowly lost on the road to the Denver Broncos, 22-24. Cincinnati's left tackle, Andrew Whitworth (24.6), has one of the league's highest rankings.

These numbers might have tipped one of the season's biggest surprises: Rookie quarterback Cam Newton, who has passed for 854 yards in two games. His Carolina Panthers had the No. 8 best pass-blocking line when the season started.

The Dallas Cowboys, a team many people counted out before the season, were also ranked high in pass blocking (ninth) and have passed for 774 yards, third in the league so far. On the other side of the ledger: The suddenly anemic Kansas City Chiefs. They ranked No. 29 in pass blocking before the season.

Some of the results are more curious: The Detroit Lions, who by this data should have the NFL's second-worst run-blocking line, are 2-0. One possible explanation is something Pro Football Focus doesn't factor in to its grades: continuity. The Lions' five starters took 5,362 snaps together last season, the second-most in the NFL.

On the Line

How all 32 NFL teams' offensive lines rank overall and on run and pass blocks.

OVERALL RanK RUN BLOCK PASS BLOCK
1. Texans 2 1
2. Ravens 1 3
3. Jets 4 2
4. Patriots 3 20
5. Bengals 7 11
6. Browns 12 6
7. Chargers 8 18
8. Cowboys 9 8
9. Panthers 14 7
10. Giants 10 19
11. Eagles 11 10
12. Packers 17 9
13. Dolphins 13 13
14. Falcons 19 17
15. Jaguars 15 22
16. 49ers 6 27
17. Chiefs 5 29
18. Colts 18 12
19. Seahawks 16 21
20. Saints 23 4
21. Broncos 27 15
22. Rams 29 5
23. Bills 21 16
24. Lions 31 14
25. Vikings 30 24
26. Redskins 24 30
27. Cardinals 22 28
28. Steelers 25 25
29. Raiders 26 26
30. Bears 20 31
31. Buccaneers 28 32
32. Titans 32 23

Source: Pro Football Focus

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576582863603744104.html


Interesting Comment:

Someone has to decide what it is worth to pay these guys, so all this analysis is used for salary disputes. That is why players call these guys up to argue about missed blocks and the like, because its about money.

...

AustinChief
02-22-2012, 10:42 PM
Some of this is a result of football's secretive nature. It's difficult to evaluate the play of a lineman without knowing what his blocking assignment was on a given play—and that's something no team is going to offer up. Without knowing what a player was supposed to do, it's impossible to know for sure whether he should get credit for making the correct block.

"There is absolutely no guessing," says Hornsby. "We don't grade down anybody unless we're 90% sure what was supposed to happen."


Here is the crux of it... if you don't KNOW every blocking assignment then no Nick, it is ALL guessing you dumb limey. They may be somewhat accurate educated guesses but they are guesses all the same.

Chiefnj2
02-23-2012, 09:16 AM
I wonder if PFF watches the games from regular tv feeds or if they obtain the 22 view.

tredadda
02-23-2012, 09:35 AM
Just think, almost every starter on the SF O-Line is either a first or second rounder. Just something to think about for the crowd that feels we need to draft a first round O-lineman EVERY year in order to be competitive.

kc rush
02-23-2012, 12:52 PM
LINK (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/)

Came in at 16.

16. Kansas City Chiefs (10th)

Run Rank 27th, Pass Rank 9th, Penalties Rank 13th

How much better would this line have been without one player letting them down? Aside from the right tackle spot, the entire line graded positively, doing a particular good job of protecting whoever was behind center. Without Jamaal Charles, the line’s inability to consistently open up decent-sized running lanes came to the fore all too often. This remains a key area that the Chiefs need to improve on.

Best Player: A big third year for Branden Albert (+4.4) who was extremely impressive in pass protection, finishing the season third in our Pass Blocking Efficiency ranking for all blindside tackles.

Worst Player: It’s imperative that this line moves on from Barry Richardson (-39.1). He’s just not good enough at this level.