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Direckshun
02-27-2012, 06:28 AM
I think it's high time something starts to change around here.

I've been a member of Chiefsplanet going on 6+ years now, because I have long understood something that served as this vicious forum's watchword going back to the days I first started posting: building a football team is a smart man's game which benefits from sober, dispassionate analysis, not an emotional kneejerk-a-thon where baseless loyalty and emotional ties trump all.

That kind of mob rule long had a place on the Coalition or AP or virtually any of the other sludge pits of homer-otica that colored the web. For years, ChiefsPlanet's take-no-prisoners approach yeilded benefits; we've long had some of the best posters, the best range of opinion, and reason found its way to the top of the crop year after year.

The past few years, ChiefsPlanet has passed this crown to other sites, most notably AP. This forum has grown as intolerant and reactionary as any Chiefs site on the web. Normally I wouldn't give two shits and I'd just allow you all to spin yourselves into a self-destructive fantasy, which would surely render the football forums pointless, leaving the Planet with the Epic Fail thread as its only saving grace.

But the insanity isn't that widespread. It's just concentrated to the nthe degree on current GM Scott Pioli. Ever since he's arrived, this website has strayed so far from reality that it can't bring itself to accept the amazing transformation this team has seen since 2009. A lot of people get credit for that; Herm Edwards drafted well, and the coaches we've had over the past couple of year (Haley, Crennel) have been good enough at developing talent that things have really accelerated past where this team really should be under normal circumstances.

But let's start with the basics. Pioli's first year was a disaster, with the team going 4-12. The next year against a soft schedule, we went 10-6 and won the division. This year, the team lost its starting QB, the best players on offense and defense, and played a harder schedule. And still finished 7-9, a game out of the division.

I understand the Pioli hate isn't baseless. The 2009 disaster has been well-documented. Supposedly brought in because he was willing to perform a complete transformation of professionalism to Kansas City's front office, Pioli got his pants pulled down all offseason. He missed out on countless free agents, and had what many people consider to be a shit draft, drafting just one offensive lineman with our shit line and a strong OL draft class (the one guy we drafted was Colin fucking Brown). He hired Todd Haley, a personally abrasive personality who could never coexist with another cook in the kitchen. And he signed Matt Cassel long-term that offseason, the last of the 2009 decisions this franchise is still living with and suffering from.

And then there was that disasterous article about the toxic working environment at Arrowhead. But maybe there's a method to that degree of madness. It has worked, for instance, with the new Bears GM who was our scouting director for a couple years. It worked enough for Weis and Crennel. And the countless coaches in New England. And Pioli has managed strong coaching hires nonetheless. Pioli is not, after all, an unknown quantity, so it's not like he pulled some fast one on Haley to come here. He spent a decade in New England, so it's not like people have no idea what the guy's like.

But let's get back to that shit 2009 offseason. There are ways to consider it. For starters, imagine it had never happened... kind of a stretch, I know. But if Scott Pioli had arrived in 2010 and accomplished all that he has in these two years, wouldn't we largely be praising his amazing work in those two years? Two solid years of coaching hires, drafts, free agency acquisitions, and talent growth on this team? That's an incredibly strong track record. I understand the frustration over 2009 (a weak year for the draft and free agency anyway), but clearly the past two years are the path Pioli will blaze for this team. Surely that must excite you for the future.

The Coaching Hires

Even in 2009, the only truly botched hire was Clancy Pendergast for defensive coordinator, and that was because Pioli held out so hard for Haley to become available.

Todd Haley was not a bad hire. It's very clear that if this organization had found some way to keep him reigned in with a very specific responsibility (like offensive coordinator with the Cardinals/Steelers, or 2010's just-head-coach responsibility with the Chiefs), he was extremely effective in those specific, limited roles. Haley did eventually lose support of the locker room in 2011, but there's no denying his ability to groom the talent this team did have. Pushing Derrick Johnson and Dwayne Bowe deep down the depth chart revitalized both players, the benefits of which we'll be reaping for years to come. He was an expert motivator, and never minced words on the field (who gives two shits if he gives a bad interview). His dressing-down of Brodie Croyle against the Ravens in 2009 was as perfect a syncing up with ChiefsPlanet thought as there's ever been. Sadly, Haley did not work out with the personality of this organization (to say the fucking least), and chased off two different offensive coordinators and had an overly burdensome relationship with the most recent one.

Since then, Pioli has been hitting on all cylinders with his coaching hires. He brought on the two best coordinators on both sides of the field in 2010, both of them giving this team an incredible boost. Crennel in particular did as good a job on this defense as any coordinator has over the previous five years leading up to his hire. Muir was as good as this organization could do with Haley on board, but we did bring in Jim Zorn.

2011 brought on more coaching hires that hit the spot. Zorn stayed on, and Daboll was an odd hire but probably the best this organization could do for the time being. Daboll himself is not altogether a bad hire; he did have success with fairly comparable offensive talent in Miami, including a limited QB, a solid run game and a mostly inert passing game with one true gamebreaker at WR. And Crennel, of course, was the best coaching hire of this offseason.

The most important shift in coaching philosophy under Pioli is the emphasis on development of talent. Carl Peterson was too invested in acquiring new talent. But since Schottenheimer, we've had virtually zero coaching that was capable of developing the talent we already had. But with Haley, Zorn, Weis, Crennel... that all has changed under Pioli. And we're all the better for it.

The Drafts

Even including the 2009 draft that disappointed so many people, the Chiefs have been one of the league's absolute best drafters under Pioli. But even including 2009... what did we get? A league-leader in run defense at DE, and a franchise kicker. That's a pretty weak haul, but it's better than most teams fared in that sorry-ass draft class. Tyson Jackson was a pretty weird pick at #3 overall, but virtually every other player in the Top Ten picks that year after the Chiefs busted, including BJ Raji who doesn't even fit our two-gap defense. You can throw in Belcher, who was a UDFA this year, and the team's draft is starting to magically look average for 2009.

The 2010 draft, meanwhile, was one of the five best drafts this team has ever, ever had. The team drafted Berry, McCluster, Arenas, Asamoah, Moeaki, Sheffield, and Lewis. That's a hit on every pick, save the Sheffield pick in the fifth round. Coming from a guy who absolutely hated the 2010 draft, I will be the first to say I was dead wrong. It landed us one All Pro, four starters, and two people (McCluster and Arenas) who play a prominent role on the team. That profundity of this class of new Chiefs is amazing; virtually no team in NFL history has hit on all of its picks in any given year. A draft this good can fastforward a rebuilding process.

The 2011 draft, also, still has the potential to be one of the five best drafts this team has ever had. Baldwin will be starting shortly. Hudson will be starting. Houston and Bailey will be starters soon. And Stanzi and Powe have yet to get their opportunities, and we've seen them flash in the preseason.

Free Agency and Cap Management

With one notoriously bad signing in Cassel, the Chiefs under Pioli are not mere cheapskates like it's been alleged. They are sticking to one word above all: value. Value, value, value. No signing is made unless it's a deal on the Chiefs end.

Now that necessarily means that, in an era of bloated free agent contracts, the Chiefs will largely sit on their hands when free agency comes around. And that surely frustrates many of us to great end, but the approach of signing the next Shiny Thing on the market did squat for Carl Peterson's Chiefs.

2009 gave us only one free agency signing worth remembering: halfway through the season we claimed Chris Chambers off waivers. And he flamed out so hard he got kicked off the team shortly after signing a very manageable contract in 2010. But for the rest of 2009, he was a good option to have opposite Bowe. (And it should be mentioned that Mike Vrabel provided us an excellent defensive coach while DJ was getting his act together.) Though it should be mentioned the worst move all offseason, outside of the Cassel deal, was trading a 6th to the Dolphins for two offensive lineman we didn't play.

But even the Cassel deal was reasonable to the vast majority of minds in the NFL. Beyond reasonable. The Chiefs had zero talent at the position, and brought in a player the GM was intimately familiar with, along with a defensive coach-on-the-field, who at the time was relatively young at 27 years old, for pennies on the dollar. The 2nd round pick we gave up for Cassel/Vrabel was such a value deal, people wanted to conduct an investigation for us "raping" the Patriots. Meanwhile, we had nobody but Tyler Thigpen at the position (who we essentially turned into Kendrick Lewis), and only Mark Sanchez to consider in the draft.

2010 beefed up our offensive line with Wiegmann and Lilja. It beefed up our run game with Thomas Jones, who had just enough tread left on his tires to rack up 900 yards in a committee role. We brought in a bear of a defensive lineman in Shaun Smith. Leonard Pope had been a strong blocker for us. Of all Pioli's free agency moves, only one turned out to be a mistake: Jerheme Urban. Who was brought in for no money anyway, at Haley's behest.

2011 was yet another year for valuable free agency acquisitions. We brought back Wiegmann for another year, and landed a good tackle/tight end in Steve Maneri. Gregg finally gave us a true nose tackle. We picked up two Ravens who temporarily worked out for us in McClain and Gaither. Gaither in particular was a steal, and losing him for nothing was perhaps our worst blunder in the Pioli era outside of the Cassel acquisition. But even then, Gaither cannot be relied on as anything but an emergency situation due to his back, and we're all going to see that play out in 2012. The Chiefs landed Stevie Breaston on a deal as solid as we could get from a guy who will be playing out wide most of the time. Our only bad signing? Sabby Piscitelli, which was a desperation signing and was never supposed to get the playing time he ended up logging.

Pioli never landed a QB to backup Cassel that offseason, but who was he supposed to get? The only legitimate option he had, he took, when Kyle Orton hit waivers. A move that paid royal dividends, and has a remote chance of landing this franchise a new QB.

2012 is starting off solid. Bowe is getting tagged/resigned, and the team has allowed such outstanding cap room for itself, it has all the cap space necessary to bring on a new franchise QB if they want in the form of Peyton Manning. The Routt signing was completely reasonable -- it's not reasonable to expect the Chiefs to be the first team in NFL history to commit $100 million to its starting corners. Carr and Flowers were a powerful combination, but were they really worth being paid as if they were the best tandem in NFL history? We talk about devalued positions all the time on this board. Tell me: how valued is the #2 corner? Is that worth the massive contract we would have had to commit? At the expense of the primo talent we have the potential to end up landing?

The Quarterback Problem

Of course the biggest, most profound error of the Pioli era was to bring in Matt Cassel. But in the short time that Pioli has been our GM, we have had no other conceivable options, short of taking a flyer on Andy Dalton at the bottom of the 2011 Draft 1st round.

So we landed Cassel, for a bargain's bargain, and got a defensive coach-on-the-field with it in a deal so good people wanted to investigate us (a move that, for good measure, began the implosion in Denver). Since then, we passed on Mark Sanchez, a move that I think almost everybody would have preferred us to do. We passed on Jimmy Clausen twice, which is starting to look like a smart idea. We passed on trading for Kevin Kolb. We passed on the Donovan McNabbs and the Michael Vicks.

There was really only one realistic opportunity for the Chiefs to land a new starting QB, and that was last year when Kyle Orton was released. Pioli didn't hestitate.

Fact: in the time that Scott Pioli has been GM of the Chiefs, there have been no legitimate franchise options for us to take at the QB position. All the rookies except for Dalton have failed to fulfill any franchise role. All the free agents have looked like iffy signings at the best. And it's never smart to trade away your entire draft for a player like RG3, who may not even work out. Because then you've not only got a player who won't work, you've sacrificed all-important depth for your team. Not a great idea.

Matter of fact, our new coach has done nothing but openly entertain the idea of new QBs on multiple occasions. If Pioli is the all-seeing, all-controlling entity that Haley makes him out to be, there's no way this happens. So let's embrace the truth that we all know to be true: Pioli is ready to move on. He just doesn't want to move on for anything, like a desperate idiot. He wants to make the next move for QB the smartest possible move, and that may or may not be this offseason.

So abandon your Pioli hate for a season. Stop resisting the process and try looking at how well Pioli works the process to this franchise's favor in the near- and long-term. Admit that the man's been one of the best drafting GMs since he's been in KC, has not overreacting and made brash, ill-advised moves (other than cutting Gaither), and generally has ushered in the talent and the coaching necessary to continue improving this team all three years he's been here.

DaKCMan AP
02-27-2012, 06:34 AM
I think it's high time something starts to change around here.

I've been a member of Chiefsplanet going on 6+ years now


STFU n00b

Easy 6
02-27-2012, 06:35 AM
This will hit 100 posts before 10am.

KCtotheSB
02-27-2012, 06:57 AM
Doesn't matter. We're all going to die this year anyways.

bevischief
02-27-2012, 07:13 AM
Pioli needs to go.

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 07:18 AM
Repost.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=234141

spanky 52
02-27-2012, 07:18 AM
He gave us Matt Cassel. Fuck him.

Brainiac
02-27-2012, 07:21 AM
I like to think that Pioli is growing into his role the same way that Dayton Moore grew into his role with the Royals. Dayton Moore looked like an idiot for several years. Now he looks like a genius.

Dayton Moore and Scott Pioli were both the hot hires with the terrific resume. Hopefully the parallels won't end there. I'd much rather give him a couple more years than starting over.

FAX
02-27-2012, 07:21 AM
I think this should win you the giant post of the year award, Mr. Direckshun. Hands down.

But, honestly ... I believe with all my heart and all my soul and most of my penis in the power of individuality. On that basis, I, for one, refuse to become one of Dr. Evil's minions.

I could not have been happier when Pioli was hired. I was ecstatic. Thrilled.

But, its 3 years in and we've been through a half-dozen OCs, two DCs, two or three HCs (depending on whether or not you count Herm) and, most recently, came up dead last in, what is by far, the worst conference in the league.

I respect you as a poster and as a person and as a witch-hunter, but I can't help but be disappointed in our progress under the Dr. Evil regime given that Pioli is Executive Of The Century and should have more on the ball than the folks either here or at the fan-site board that shall not be named.

FAX THE INDEPENDENT

FringeNC
02-27-2012, 07:29 AM
Pioli wanted to fired Haley at the end of 2010, but didn't have the guts, so engaged in despicable undermining effort of the coach he hired, and in the process, made the Chiefs the laughingstock of the league. You forgot to mention that.

bricks
02-27-2012, 07:30 AM
Holy crap that's a lot of reading.

I ain't reading all that. Sorry DS.

BoneKrusher
02-27-2012, 07:33 AM
He gave us Matt Cassel. **** him.

and that alone is enough to fire his ass.

patteeu
02-27-2012, 07:35 AM
Nice post, Direckshun. I was just about to say the same thing, but you said it much more concisely, so you saved me a couple of hours of typing. Thanks!

patteeu
02-27-2012, 07:39 AM
Holy crap that's a lot of reading.

I ain't reading all that. Sorry DS.

tl;dr = Pioli has made a few mistakes, but on balance, he's done a fantastic job. And ChiefsPlanet is filled with emotional, knee-jerk, me-too-ers who blindly hate what they don't understand.

InChiefsHell
02-27-2012, 07:39 AM
I actually agree with most of your post Direckshun. The only problem is, results. At the end of the day, what are the results? Started out 4-12, then went 10-6, then went 7-9. That's all anyone gives a shit about. I've always been in the 5 year plan camp, so I'm saying he should get 2 more seasons.

I believe we're heading in the right direction, and I trust in Pioli as well. But in this WIN NOW world, he has to produce a fuggin' SB team in one season or he sucks.

DaKCMan AP
02-27-2012, 07:50 AM
I was just about to say the same thing, but you said it much more concisely

LMAO

Dave Lane
02-27-2012, 07:59 AM
tl;dr = Obama has made a few mistakes, but on balance, he's done a fantastic job. And ChiefsPlanet is filled with emotional, knee-jerk, me-too-ers who blindly hate what they don't understand.

I'm sorry, I know what a DC poster you are Patty and I have to assume this is what you meant in describing DC. :)

LMAO LMAO

the Talking Can
02-27-2012, 08:17 AM
that's the most amazing pile of rationalizations I've ever read....

Todd Haley was not a bad hire.

huh? He had to be fired mid-season after two years...but we can't say it was a bad hire?

Pioli hand picked Cassel, a worthless piece of shit...but we can't criticize him for it because...well, just because...

and this is priceless, the perfect example of True Fan "oh noes, it risky!":

And it's never smart to trade away your entire draft for a player like RG3, who may not even work out.

This place has officially become Warpaint. Mark the time....whatever time this thread was posted.

suds79
02-27-2012, 08:17 AM
Can I get the cliff notes to all of that? Can't do it on a Monday morning.

loochy
02-27-2012, 08:27 AM
tl;dr = Pioli has made a few mistakes, but on balance, he's done a fantastic job. And ChiefsPlanet is filled with emotional, knee-jerk, me-too-ers who blindly hate what they don't understand.

Nobody UNDERSTANDS why Cassel is our QB and yet we HATE HIM but it's not BLIND.

KurtCobain
02-27-2012, 08:30 AM
Yeah, I like Pioli. I think this whole thing will pan out into something really fucking special soon. I hope very soon, like 2012. Cassel and McCluster are my two huge beefs with him, but as far as Cassel goes there hasn't been much to shop at the QB position since Pioli got his big job.

Go Pioli's Chiefs! Let's kill fools.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 08:31 AM
I have to giggle a little when I read this...why?

Because the Planet has ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY.

Most of us came here in the summer of 2000 right in the midst of having to suffer Gunther Cunningham as head coach.

The only thing that has changed is the players, the game hasn't changed at all.

Reaper16
02-27-2012, 08:32 AM
Well, bye.

Shox
02-27-2012, 08:34 AM
80% of this membership hate Pioli. A year from now (or much less if we gett Manning) 80% will love him.

For the record I'm on the Pioli bandwagon from the start.

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 08:39 AM
Fuck you.

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 08:41 AM
The team drafted Berry, McCluster, Arenas, Asamoah, Moeaki, Sheffield, and Lewis. That's a hit on every pick

A bong hit?

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 08:43 AM
Leonard Pope had been a strong blocker for us.

So strong that he's 5th worst at his position.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2e51dv4.jpg

Time to pull your head out, DShun.

loochy
02-27-2012, 08:45 AM
80% of this membership hate Pioli. A year from now (or much less if we gett Manning) 80% will love him.

For the record I'm on the Pioli bandwagon from the start.

Well yeah...

If he does something right then we approve of him. What's noteworthy about that?

dirk digler
02-27-2012, 08:47 AM
I don't know why you would trust him. The most important decisions he has made he has massively failed.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 09:09 AM
huh? He had to be fired mid-season after two years...but we can't say it was a bad hire?

Pioli hand picked Cassel, a worthless piece of shit...but we can't criticize him for it because...well, just because...

and this is priceless, the perfect example of True Fan "oh noes, it risky!":

That's fair. Perhaps I meant to say the Haley hire was not bad at the time. Obviously if we walked into this thing knowing he'd drive away every coach he worked with, had an incredibly toxic relationship with Pioli, or would eventually lose support of the locker room, we would have passed.

But at the time he had a strong reputation for developing talent. Which, for the record, we'll be reaping the benefits from a lot of his work.

We can criticize Pioli for the Cassel hire... but what was his other option? The only other realistic option (taking Dalton at #27 last year would have been criminal at the time) would be to select Mark Sanchez. And we'd have a shit quarterback instead of a shit quarterback.

There have literally been no other options... until Kyle Orton hit the market. So that should tell you exactly how much Pioli thinks of Cassel.

And, by the way, you don't trade your draft away for one player.

Especially a player like RG3, who we have no idea how well he'll fare in the NFL given his style of play that we've honestly never seen before.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 09:12 AM
I have to giggle a little when I read this...why?

Because the Planet has ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY.

Most of us came here in the summer of 2000 right in the midst of having to suffer Gunther Cunningham as head coach.

The only thing that has changed is the players, the game hasn't changed at all.

I disagree.

I remember when this place was dogging Vermeil and Herm over the middle of last decade when the blind faithful were singing their praises. Eventually the team deteriorated, and we were on the cutting edge of predicting that.

But now we've taken that skepticism to its illogical extreme. We seem to forget that we had a GM with zero discipline, we lived at or above the cap, and every year we boasted lopsided teams with one side of the ball being completely, miserably awful.

Pioli has built the most evenly balanced team we've had since our last playoff win.

How did that work out then?

Oh yeah. With a playoff win.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 09:13 AM
So strong that he's 5th worst at his position.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2e51dv4.jpg

Time to pull your head out, DShun.

He definitely regressed in 2011. Like most of our offense when Charles when down.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 09:13 AM
A bong hit?

That was among the best three draft hauls by a team in 2010.

patteeu
02-27-2012, 09:16 AM
I'm sorry, I know what a DC poster you are Patty and I have to assume this is what you meant in describing DC. :)

LMAO LMAO

Nobody UNDERSTANDS why Cassel is our QB and yet we HATE HIM but it's not BLIND.

Hey guys, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just distilling Direckshun's post for the emotional, knee-jerk, me-too-er, blind-haters who refuse to read anything longer or more complicated than a Gates BBQ menu. ;)

InChiefsHell
02-27-2012, 09:19 AM
Hey guys, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just distilling Direckshun's post for the emotional, knee-jerk, me-too-er, blind-haters who refuse to read anything longer or more complicated than a Gates BBQ menu. ;)

mmmmmmm....BBQ.....

patteeu
02-27-2012, 09:20 AM
mmmmmmm....BBQ.....

LMAO

the Talking Can
02-27-2012, 09:21 AM
That's fair. Perhaps I meant to say the Haley hire was not bad at the time. Obviously if we walked into this thing knowing he'd drive away every coach he worked with, had an incredibly toxic relationship with Pioli, or would eventually lose support of the locker room, we would have passed.

But at the time he had a strong reputation for developing talent. Which, for the record, we'll be reaping the benefits from a lot of his work.

We can criticize Pioli for the Cassel hire... but what was his other option? The only other realistic option (taking Dalton at #27 last year would have been criminal at the time) would be to select Mark Sanchez. And we'd have a shit quarterback instead of a shit quarterback.

There have literally been no other options... until Kyle Orton hit the market. So that should tell you exactly how much Pioli thinks of Cassel.

And, by the way, you don't trade your draft away for one player.

Especially a player like RG3, who we have no idea how well he'll fare in the NFL given his style of play that we've honestly never seen before.

sorry, your argument about RG3 is pure, old school Chiefsplanet "QBs is risky" talk...save it for someone else, it's nonsense

Haley and Cassel were bad calls, and 100% of the blame for them resides on Pioli...no elaborate rationalizations necessary

Pioli has had two excellent drafts, and received praise for them...where you get the idea that he hasn't I have no idea...I hated a couple of the picks, and have admitted Moeaki was a good pick (even though he's injured), and remain steadfast that McCluster was a terrible pick (#36...lmfao)

last year was one long blow job for Pioli during the whole draft

Pioli has also signed very good contracts, and been praised for it...

so, that you feel as if Pioli is some genious not getting the credit he deserves - and that the Planet isn't worthy of your genious intellect - is only evidence of the fantasy world you've constructed for yourself, Warpaint-style...

SNR
02-27-2012, 09:22 AM
I have given Pioli credit for drafting well in 2010 and 2011 (though anybody who would make the McCluster pick is a fucking moron.) I believe his drafts will always keep us competitive if we ever get a QB. This is a VERY good thing to have in a GM.

I also give him credit for keeping the "rebuild" alive through the cap. I've never really had my period like some posters have over our huge ass amount of cap space.

At the end of last season, I was prepared to forgive the abortion that was the 2009 offseason as long as we kept drafting well, and some QBs were brought in. Most of my bitching this year has to do with the QB position and how it appears Pioli's not going to fix it. I don't think he is. That's terrible GMing.

However, that Babb article was released, and now I'm off the hook. Most of the shit I read about in there is Clark Hunt's fault, but we're not going to change our toxic culture until a shakeup happens at the GM position.

So that's why I'd rather see Pioli gone sooner rather than later, barring we fall ass over teakettle into a legitimate starting QB and start to win playoff games. That's always been my take.

SNR
02-27-2012, 09:24 AM
That kind of mob rule long had a place on the Coalition or AP or virtually any of the other sludge pits of homer-otica that colored the web. For years, ChiefsPlanet's take-no-prisoners approach yeilded benefits; we've long had some of the best posters, the best range of opinion, and reason found its way to the top of the crop year after year.

The past few years, ChiefsPlanet has passed this crown to other sites, most notably AP. This forum has grown as intolerant and reactionary as any Chiefs site on the web.HOLY SHIT! You actually enjoy reading AP? LMAO LMAO LMAO

I was willing to give you some credibility with this post. Now it's all out the window. Congrats, you're a dumbass.

Bane
02-27-2012, 09:25 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/ay7c0h.jpg

boogblaster
02-27-2012, 09:32 AM
10 and 11 decent drafts .. everything else is a cluster ......

Chiefshrink
02-27-2012, 09:32 AM
That's fair. Perhaps I meant to say the Haley hire was not bad at the time. Obviously if we walked into this thing knowing he'd drive away every coach he worked with, had an incredibly toxic relationship with Pioli, or would eventually lose support of the locker room, we would have passed.

I think Pioli vastly overestimated Haley toeing the line in reference to Cassel and Haley vastly underestimated Pioli's Patriot Way(Cassel or the highway) which makes for a bad chemistry thus the low man on the totem pole always gets nixed.

chiefzilla1501
02-27-2012, 09:42 AM
Pioli has built a very good team.

But he handled the Haley situation very poorly. If its true that he wanted to fire Haley the day after a playoff game shame on him. If its true he sabotaged Haley this year big shame on him. If it's true he went over the line in terms of spying on Haley, micromanaging Haley, overly forcing any coaches on him, and leaking information about Haley to hurt his reputation, that is something gms sholud not do. Given that Haley was hired by one of the best organizations in football, seems pretty clear that teams aren't concerned about Haley's ability to get along with others.

I don't like the Romeo hire and the daboll hire was short sighted. Never did there seem to be an earnest effort to interview outside of the tree. And it seems clear pioli is giving Romeo a lot more license to yap off and to choose his own coaches. Why didn't he give Haley this kind of flexibility?

As for qb... He should have known enough about cassel to not make that move. I'm more upset about his refusal to add quality depth at the position. Palko being the backup is all pioli. Nose tackle. We all know its the most important position on the field. The best we can do is a 1 year almost retired guy and a 6th round pick? The depth issue... I don't mind that the chiefs haven't spent a ton of money. I'm angry pioli ignored getting depth, which is cheap. Again, goes back to gretz's question... Is it true that pioli was purposely short changing Haley so he had an excuse yo fire him?

Basically, he has done a great job but he let his hatred for Haley affect his ability to effectively run the team and I believe his loyalty to cassel and to his tree will also do him in. He needs to stop acting work hos emotions and start acting fully with his brain only.

Setsuna
02-27-2012, 09:43 AM
Chris Rainey for Cheifs 2012!

Inspector
02-27-2012, 09:46 AM
I read through a lot of this and like other posters here, I find myself craving some BBQ.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 09:47 AM
I disagree.

I remember when this place was dogging Vermeil and Herm over the middle of last decade when the blind faithful were singing their praises. Eventually the team deteriorated, and we were on the cutting edge of predicting that.

But now we've taken that skepticism to its illogical extreme. We seem to forget that we had a GM with zero discipline, we lived at or above the cap, and every year we boasted lopsided teams with one side of the ball being completely, miserably awful.

Pioli has built the most evenly balanced team we've had since our last playoff win.

How did that work out then?

Oh yeah. With a playoff win.

Even the largest of mountains eventually crumbles under the relentless assault of wind and rain.

This place hasn't changed because the CHIEFS haven't changed.

Trust me, even the slightest of postseason successes would turn the attitude around in a heartbeat.

Ebolapox
02-27-2012, 09:53 AM
Even the largest of mountains eventually crumbles under the relentless assault of wind and rain.

This place hasn't changed because the CHIEFS haven't changed.

Trust me, even the slightest of postseason successes would turn the attitude around in a heartbeat.

yep. if they gave us actual reason to be optimistic, there would be a world of difference.

Chiefshrink
02-27-2012, 09:53 AM
Pioli has built a very good team.

But he handled the Haley situation very poorly. If its true that he wanted to fire Haley the day after a playoff game shame on him. If its true he sabotaged Haley this year big shame on him. If it's true he went over the line in terms of spying on Haley, micromanaging Haley, overly forcing any coaches on him, and leaking information about Haley to hurt his reputation, that is something gms sholud not do. Given that Haley was hired by one of the best organizations in football, seems pretty clear that teams aren't concerned about Haley's ability to get along with others.

I don't like the Romeo hire and the daboll hire was short sighted. Never did there seem to be an earnest effort to interview outside of the tree. And it seems clear pioli is giving Romeo a lot more license to yap off and to choose his own coaches. Why didn't he give Haley this kind of flexibility?

As for qb... He should have known enough about cassel to not make that move. I'm more upset about his refusal to add quality depth at the position. Palko being the backup is all pioli. Nose tackle. We all know its the most important position on the field. The best we can do is a 1 year almost retired guy and a 6th round pick? The depth issue... I don't mind that the chiefs haven't spent a ton of money. I'm angry pioli ignored getting depth, which is cheap. Again, goes back to gretz's question... Is it true that pioli was purposely short changing Haley so he had an excuse yo fire him?

Basically, he has done a great job but he let his hatred for Haley affect his ability to effectively run the team and I believe his loyalty to cassel and to his tree will also do him in. He needs to stop acting work hos emotions and start acting fully with his brain only.

Too many "If it's true" statements which I think it falls equally on both. But Pioli is your boss and you must toe the line. Unless of course Cassel is your QB:D

DaKCMan AP
02-27-2012, 09:56 AM
Chris Rainey for Cheifs 2012!

Stop.

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2012, 09:58 AM
I would have fired his ass on 2/28/09.
Posted via Mobile Device

L.A. Chieffan
02-27-2012, 10:14 AM
i agree with most of the op except the part about cassel being a "bad" signing. wtf was that?

mrbiggz
02-27-2012, 10:20 AM
That's fair. Perhaps I meant to say the Haley hire was not bad at the time. Obviously if we walked into this thing knowing he'd drive away every coach he worked with, had an incredibly toxic relationship with Pioli, or would eventually lose support of the locker room, we would have passed.

But at the time he had a strong reputation for developing talent. Which, for the record, we'll be reaping the benefits from a lot of his work.

We can criticize Pioli for the Cassel hire... but what was his other option? The only other realistic option (taking Dalton at #27 last year would have been criminal at the time) would be to select Mark Sanchez. And we'd have a shit quarterback instead of a shit quarterback.

There have literally been no other options... until Kyle Orton hit the market. So that should tell you exactly how much Pioli thinks of Cassel.

And, by the way, you don't trade your draft away for one player.

Especially a player like RG3, who we have no idea how well he'll fare in the NFL given his style of play that we've honestly never seen before.

His option was not to pay him 63 million dollars and take a wait and see approach to whether:
1. Cassel was at least worthy of a long term starters contract.
2. Good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl

Instead he gave him a long term contract and wasted money well before the season started. If I were Clark Hunt I'd fire him just based off that decision alone. Why was it so imperative to give him that contract at that point in time? Why did we give one of the most penalized CB's last year who is a descending player in this league seven million a year and letting a younger ascending player walk?

vailpass
02-27-2012, 10:23 AM
Woman, you must have a LOT of free time.

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 10:33 AM
Pioli needs to go.
idiot

Chiefnj2
02-27-2012, 10:34 AM
His option was not to pay him 63 million dollars and take a wait and see approach to whether:
1. Cassel was at least worthy of a long term starters contract.
2. Good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl

Instead he gave him a long term contract and wasted money well before the season started. If I were Clark Hunt I'd fire him just based off that decision alone. Why was it so imperative to give him that contract at that point in time? Why did we give one of the most penalized CB's last year who is a descending player in this league seven million a year and letting a younger ascending player walk?

How much money did Cassel get his first year?

smittysbar
02-27-2012, 10:34 AM
He needs to make a move at QB, if he was to trade up and get one or sign Manning, or both, I will be on his Jock.

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 10:37 AM
He definitely regressed in 2011. Like most of our offense when Charles when down.

HE SUCKED IN 2010 AS A BLOCKER, TOO.

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 10:39 AM
His option was not to pay him 63 million dollars and take a wait and see approach to whether:
1. Cassel was at least worthy of a long term starters contract.
2. Good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl

Instead he gave him a long term contract and wasted money well before the season started. If I were Clark Hunt I'd fire him just based off that decision alone. Why was it so imperative to give him that contract at that point in time? Why did we give one of the most penalized CB's last year who is a descending player in this league seven million a year and letting a younger ascending player walk?
yep ... giving Cassel that contract early was Pioli's biggest mistake, by far.

2nd mistake was hiring Goonther Haley

other than those two mistakes Pioli has done a solid job

L.A. Chieffan
02-27-2012, 10:40 AM
HE SUCKED IN 2010 AS A BLOCKER, TOO.

B ALBERT IS A STUD!

having said that i wouldnt mind trading up and taking a T

el borracho
02-27-2012, 10:41 AM
That's fair. Perhaps I meant to say the Haley hire was not bad at the time. Obviously if we walked into this thing knowing he'd drive away every coach he worked with, had an incredibly toxic relationship with Pioli, or would eventually lose support of the locker room, we would have passed.

But at the time he had a strong reputation for developing talent. Which, for the record, we'll be reaping the benefits from a lot of his work.

We can criticize Pioli for the Cassel hire... but what was his other option? The only other realistic option (taking Dalton at #27 last year would have been criminal at the time) would be to select Mark Sanchez. And we'd have a shit quarterback instead of a shit quarterback.

There have literally been no other options... until Kyle Orton hit the market. So that should tell you exactly how much Pioli thinks of Cassel.

Mallet.

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 10:42 AM
B ALBERT IS A STUD!

having said that i wouldnt mind trading up and taking a T

We're talking about Pope.

He's a fucking disaster as a blocker.

Direckshun is pulling shit out of his ass.

L.A. Chieffan
02-27-2012, 10:44 AM
We're talking about Pope.

He's a fucking disaster as a blocker.

Direckshun is pulling shit out of his ass.

oh, ya we should probably draft another te since moeaki is a bust. shun was wrong about that 2010 draft, not every single pick was a hit

FAX
02-27-2012, 10:45 AM
It seems to me that he has the "General" part down, but he's struggling with the "Manager" part.

Pioli has overseen far too much turnover in his coaching staff, he's compiled a shallow roster that can't sustain injury, and he's fielded an offense that, in too many games, has serious difficulty moving the ball past the 50 freaking yard line. The 50 yard line. His defense has improved ... mainly due to players who were already Chiefs when he arrived.

Frankly, I can glom onto the "process" idea that many Planeteers refer to with scorn. I know it takes time to turn a team around and we were in bad, bad shape. But, to my mind, the "process" should involve moving in a particular, clear, well-defined direction. We don't seem to have that direction ... or clear plan ... or identity. (Other than establishing a reputation as a franchise that won't tell you what's for breakfast because it's a secret.) That's my main criticism of the guy. He makes mistakes then deflects the blame. Hire a coach, then, a year later, undermine him by leaking stories to the press? That's an identity? Publicly claim you seriously sought competition for your struggling quarterback, then sign Palko? That's a purpose? Back up Berry with Saggy Pissmybelly? The list goes on and on.

Based on my observations so far, it looks like Pioli is floundering in his job and pointing fingers at everybody except himself, all the while preferring excuses and half-truths and manipulation and strawman arguments over accepting personal responsibility. To me, that is not the definition of good "management".

FAX

Chiefnj2
02-27-2012, 10:48 AM
People keep bitching about the contract Cassel received.

He was tagged. KC was on the hook for $14.65 million, the amount of the tag at the time.

With his new contract KC paid him $15.2 million. People are really upset about the half mil?

The next year he got 11.9 million. If they had to tag him twice to evaluate him it would have been around 30 million. They paid him 27.1 for the first two years. The money would have been the same.

el borracho
02-27-2012, 10:48 AM
Actually, I would add Crennel and current coaching staff to the list of complaints I have with Pioli. If the directive is to build stability and longevity in the organization, you don't hire a geriatric and a cast of unimpressive nobodies.

Count Alex's Wins
02-27-2012, 10:54 AM
How the fuck can Direckshun write this drivel two days after Pioli lied to his face through the press about his history here?

Scott Pioli wants you to eat shit and smile.

mrbiggz
02-27-2012, 11:02 AM
How much money did Cassel get his first year?

Fifteen million according to http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/matt-cassel/
and http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81149f81&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

TEX
02-27-2012, 11:05 AM
It seems to me that he has the "General" part down, but he's struggling with the "Manager" part.

Pioli has overseen far too much turnover in his coaching staff, he's compiled a shallow roster that can't sustain injury, and he's fielded an offense that, in too many games, has serious difficulty moving the ball past the 50 freaking yard line. The 50 yard line. His defense has improved ... mainly due to players who were already Chiefs when he arrived.

Frankly, I can glom onto the "process" idea that many Planeteers refer to with scorn. I know it takes time to turn a team around and we were in bad, bad shape. But, to my mind, the "process" should involve moving in a particular, clear, well-defined direction. We don't seem to have that direction ... or clear plan ... or identity. (Other than establishing a reputation as a franchise that won't tell you what's for breakfast because it's a secret.) That's my main criticism of the guy. He makes mistakes then deflects the blame. Hire a coach, then, a year later, undermine him by leaking stories to the press? That's an identity? Publicly claim you seriously sought competition for your struggling quarterback, then sign Palko? That's a purpose? Back up Berry with Saggy Pissmybelly? The list goes on and on.

Based on my observations so far, it looks like Pioli is floundering in his job and pointing fingers at everybody except himself, all the while preferring excuses and half-truths and manipulation and strawman arguments over accepting personal responsibility. To me, that is not the definition of good "management".

FAX

:clap: VERY WELL said sir!

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 11:05 AM
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/5222/dontcryrestunningphotog.jpg

FringeNC
02-27-2012, 11:14 AM
Pioli's fascination with Matt Cassel has been his defining failure here. Even the bizarre situation with Haley in my opinion is due to Pioli's belief that with better coaching Matt Cassel would be a franchise quarterback. Take away Cassel, and it's hard to argue that Pioli has been a bad GM. Unfortunately, he has struck out at the one key position in team sports.

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 11:19 AM
Pioli's fascination with Matt Cassel has been his defining failure here. Even the bizarre situation with Haley in my opinion is due to Pioli's belief that with better coaching Matt Cassel would be a franchise quarterback. Take away Cassel, and it's hard to argue that Pioli has been a bad GM. Unfortunately, he has struck out at the one key position in team sports.It's true ... if Pioli continues to fail at the QB position it will cost him his job.

Okie_Apparition
02-27-2012, 11:24 AM
We have tasted regicide & it's fucking awesome, we want more
It makes our wives breasts larger & our dongs harder
& the $2.50 gas is pretty sweet

Chiefnj2
02-27-2012, 11:27 AM
Pioli's fascination with Matt Cassel has been his defining failure here. Even the bizarre situation with Haley in my opinion is due to Pioli's belief that with better coaching Matt Cassel would be a franchise quarterback. Take away Cassel, and it's hard to argue that Pioli has been a bad GM. Unfortunately, he has struck out at the one key position in team sports.

I'm not sure it's Pioli's fascination with Cassel, or Chiefs Planet's fascination with Cassel.

dallaschiefsfan
02-27-2012, 11:38 AM
Pioli is insecure...not egotistical (Fatlock is wrong on this). His BB blanket helped him with his insecurity issues of taking the helm. Remember...he turned down jobs prior to taking the Chiefs job. Guys rarely do that unless they're afraid of leaving the nest. He's a control-freak as well. The combination is dangerous. He beats Clark down as well.

This will not end good...UNLESS we either luck ouselves into a franchise QB or he somehow throws the kitchen sink at a healthy Manning and get a solid two years out of him. Balanced or not...being a QB away from anything is still a hopeless situation in the league's current state.

I DO like the last two drafts. The jury is out on the 2011 draft, but I think it will end up panning out more than not. 2009 was terrible. So Pioli is probably a good draft-team assembler. We'll see how things go without his go-to guy.

Hydrae
02-27-2012, 11:40 AM
Pioli's fascination with Matt Cassel has been his defining failure here. Even the bizarre situation with Haley in my opinion is due to Pioli's belief that with better coaching Matt Cassel would be a franchise quarterback. Take away Cassel, and it's hard to argue that Pioli has been a bad GM. Unfortunately, he has struck out at the one key position in team sports.

I am not sure how you get that Pioli thinks better coaching will make the difference with Cassel. We replaced an offensive head coach with a defensive coach. We kept the same QB coach from last year. I suppose we brought in Daboll but I don't know how much difference that will make for developing Cassel. I just am not seeing a coaching change that indicates it should be specifically helpful for Cassel. :shrug:

whoman69
02-27-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm sorry I can't back the OP at all. Sure there are some people who take the argument to the extreme against Pioli. Truthfully this team has more young talent than the Chiefs have had in a long but where Pioli has failed, he has failed miserably. I feel that Pioli has given lip service to the fandom when he has talked at all. I hate the air of secrecy the organization has. Really? You need to lock the press corps in a conference room so they don't steal secrets. You can't even trust your own people to watch practice. Isn't it the job of the cleaning team to pick up the freaking gum wrappers?

Coming off a division championship Pioli didn't take the steps to take the team to the next level. He undercut and sniped at the coach that he wanted to fire. Despite the talk now of increased competition at every position, several were left without adequate backups while the team held $27 million in cap space in reserve. We had to live through Barry "Open Gate" Richardson at RT, a who's who at safety to replace Berry, and Tyler Palko was the best option we could find for a backup QB. The most important position on the offense has been a void for your entire stay here. Why do I feel that the promise of increase competition at QB is going to be a rookie who won't be ready for three years or another castoff. The most important position for the 3-4 has also been a void. We have a reported $63 million in cap space that recent reports have tried to have us believe is just $20 million and cannot sign our two biggest free agents with only two weeks before they hit the open market. We'll probably end up franchising one and waving goodbye to the other.

Pioli, you've talked a good game this off season and said all the things the fans want to hear. Prove to us now its not just lip service. If you cannot bring a real QB here, improve the depth on the team and fill the holes on this team, then you are a liar. You are on a one year window to improve or walk out the door.

Detoxing
02-27-2012, 11:49 AM
We have tasted regicide & it's ****ing awesome, we want more
It makes our wives breasts larger & our dongs harder
& the $2.50 gas is pretty sweet

You only pay 2.50 for a gallon of gas?

Motherfuck. I haven't paid that in over 6 years at least.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 11:52 AM
I'm sorry I can't back the OP at all. Sure there are some people who take the argument to the extreme against Pioli.

It was the same with Carl.

I've been here since Hour 1 of the first day. This place really hasn't changed AT ALL.

dallaschiefsfan
02-27-2012, 11:57 AM
It was the same with Carl.

I've been here since Hour 1 of the first day. This place really hasn't changed AT ALL.

I'm one month short of hour 1, but I can still agree that this has been absolutely true.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:03 PM
sorry, your argument about RG3 is pure, old school Chiefsplanet "QBs is risky" talk...save it for someone else, it's nonsense

RG3 is a talent this league may have never seen before. There is nobody in the league with his combination of skills. Michael Vick isn't as good of a passer. Cam Newton's much bigger and can sustain physical punishment better. Tebow... is, well, Tebow.

There is a uniqueness to him that does provide for that uncertainty, because we genuinely have no idea how that will translate to the NFL. There's a difference in being worried that Matt Barkley might bust and whether RG3 might bust.

But it doesn't matter. The reason you don't see teams trade away entire drafts for QBs is because it's fucking stupid. Depth is more important in football than it is in any other sport.

So either you're so far ahead of the game that the NFL hasn't caught up with you yet, or you're advocating an idea so unsound that nobody in the NFL has done it before.

The odds ain't exactly on your side, son.

Haley and Cassel were bad calls, and 100% of the blame for them resides on Pioli...no elaborate rationalizations necessary

Pioli has had two excellent drafts, and received praise for them...where you get the idea that he hasn't I have no idea...I hated a couple of the picks, and have admitted Moeaki was a good pick (even though he's injured), and remain steadfast that McCluster was a terrible pick (#36...lmfao)

last year was one long blow job for Pioli during the whole draft

Pioli has also signed very good contracts, and been praised for it...

That's fair.

Rausch
02-27-2012, 12:05 PM
It was the same with Carl.

I've been here since Hour 1 of the first day. This place really hasn't changed AT ALL.

Yeah, It most definitely has...

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:07 PM
I have given Pioli credit for drafting well in 2010 and 2011 (though anybody who would make the McCluster pick is a ****ing moron.) I believe his drafts will always keep us competitive if we ever get a QB. This is a VERY good thing to have in a GM.

I also give him credit for keeping the "rebuild" alive through the cap. I've never really had my period like some posters have over our huge ass amount of cap space.

At the end of last season, I was prepared to forgive the abortion that was the 2009 offseason as long as we kept drafting well, and some QBs were brought in. Most of my bitching this year has to do with the QB position and how it appears Pioli's not going to fix it. I don't think he is. That's terrible GMing.

Meh. Wait it out. Pioli has a track record of being one-track minded with his offseasons. In 2009, he wanted to build the DL. In 2010, he wanted to fortify the OL. In 2011, he wanted to boost the WR.

2012 could be the year we see some serious movement at QB.

However, that Babb article was released, and now I'm off the hook. Most of the shit I read about in there is Clark Hunt's fault, but we're not going to change our toxic culture until a shakeup happens at the GM position.

So that's why I'd rather see Pioli gone sooner rather than later, barring we fall ass over teakettle into a legitimate starting QB and start to win playoff games. That's always been my take.

I guarantee you most of the coaches we bring in at the top levels (head coach, coordinators) know what the atmosphere is like under Pioli before they come here. He is a known quantity. And yet he's had a fine relationship with almost every coach and coordinator he's worked with.

The marriage with Haley was rocky from the start. It was clearly a toxic hire, and he made the best possible hire in Haley's place.

HOLY SHIT! You actually enjoy reading AP? LMAO LMAO LMAO

I was willing to give you some credibility with this post. Now it's all out the window. Congrats, you're a dumbass.

Thanks.

AP's come a long way. It's hilariously one-sided polls don't really indicate the level of Chiefs conversation that occurs there. It far outshines the talk here more often than not because it has a better balance of Pioli's believers and haters. Here, it's damn near heresy to believe.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Pioli has built a very good team.

But he handled the Haley situation very poorly. If its true that he wanted to fire Haley the day after a playoff game shame on him. If its true he sabotaged Haley this year big shame on him. If it's true he went over the line in terms of spying on Haley, micromanaging Haley, overly forcing any coaches on him, and leaking information about Haley to hurt his reputation, that is something gms sholud not do. Given that Haley was hired by one of the best organizations in football, seems pretty clear that teams aren't concerned about Haley's ability to get along with others.

Or it could be an indication that one size does not fit all.

Haley has been at his best in his NFL career in limited roles. Offensive coordinator for the Cards, the 2010 year where he was a team manager more than he was a playcaller for the Chiefs, the 2012 season with the Steelers should be fine.

It's when he's given this nebulous concept of a job and he seeps his influence into everything and has his hand in every cookie jar that things fall apart.

Keep in mind, Haley was not an innocent victim here. He started Tyler Palko for a month.

I don't like the Romeo hire and the daboll hire was short sighted. Never did there seem to be an earnest effort to interview outside of the tree. And it seems clear pioli is giving Romeo a lot more license to yap off and to choose his own coaches. Why didn't he give Haley this kind of flexibility?

As for qb... He should have known enough about cassel to not make that move. I'm more upset about his refusal to add quality depth at the position. Palko being the backup is all pioli. Nose tackle. We all know its the most important position on the field. The best we can do is a 1 year almost retired guy and a 6th round pick? The depth issue... I don't mind that the chiefs haven't spent a ton of money. I'm angry pioli ignored getting depth, which is cheap. Again, goes back to gretz's question... Is it true that pioli was purposely short changing Haley so he had an excuse yo fire him?

Basically, he has done a great job but he let his hatred for Haley affect his ability to effectively run the team and I believe his loyalty to cassel and to his tree will also do him in. He needs to stop acting work hos emotions and start acting fully with his brain only.

That's fair.

tredadda
02-27-2012, 12:11 PM
I disagree.

I remember when this place was dogging Vermeil and Herm over the middle of last decade when the blind faithful were singing their praises. Eventually the team deteriorated, and we were on the cutting edge of predicting that.

But now we've taken that skepticism to its illogical extreme. We seem to forget that we had a GM with zero discipline, we lived at or above the cap, and every year we boasted lopsided teams with one side of the ball being completely, miserably awful.

Pioli has built the most evenly balanced team we've had since our last playoff win.

How did that work out then?

Oh yeah. With a playoff win.

That team had a good QB under center, something we still don't have after three years into the Piloi regime.

Okie_Apparition
02-27-2012, 12:11 PM
I think Pioli has a time table he's trying to stick to
Haley was going to get three years, but Clark wasn't going to let it go on anymore
Cassel's contract was set up for three years, then it's easy to dump him
Stanzi would set on the bench for one year
The problem with this theory is the OCs. It can be pushed off on Haley. Not so sure

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:11 PM
Even the largest of mountains eventually crumbles under the relentless assault of wind and rain.

This place hasn't changed because the CHIEFS haven't changed.

Trust me, even the slightest of postseason successes would turn the attitude around in a heartbeat.

The Chiefs haven't changed?

They aren't more balanced now than they've ever been since Montana?

They aren't built by the draft better now than any time in my young lifetime?

They have changed radically, from Vermeil to Herm.

I suppose I just don't know what you mean by "changing."

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:13 PM
His option was not to pay him 63 million dollars and take a wait and see approach to whether:
1. Cassel was at least worthy of a long term starters contract.
2. Good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl

Ah, so neuter your potential franchise QB right off the bat?

That approach worked VERY well for Mike Singletary.

KurtCobain
02-27-2012, 12:13 PM
So if you guys were Seahawks fans you'd all still be thrilled from last year?

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:14 PM
Mallet.

Interesting...

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:15 PM
How the **** can Direckshun write this drivel two days after Pioli lied to his face through the press about his history here?

Scott Pioli wants you to eat shit and smile.

I care about this much about press conferences:





















































































































































































































































0.

Bump
02-27-2012, 12:16 PM
Todd Haley was the absolute worst hire this organization has ever made. He basically gave Pioli, his team and the fans a big FUCK YOU by purposely losing by keeping Palko out there, no coach in the NFL is that stupid, that was payback/revenge and cost this team a playoff berth.

tredadda
02-27-2012, 12:16 PM
If Pioli wants to remove doubt, then he needs to WIN. In his three years we have had one winning season, and in it we backed into the playoffs playing the easiest schedule in recent memory. We were subsequently abused in that playoff game, which highlighted some of our weaknesses. So far from a success standpoint, Piloi is no better than the guy he replaced. Can he change that? I would argue that all hope he will. But in certain cases he is no different than Carl and the QB situation is one of them. That is what fuels the hatred for Pioli, the hatred for Cassel and the refusal to draft a first round QB. Until he proves otherwise, he will have to constantly deal with that criticism.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:17 PM
It seems to me that he has the "General" part down, but he's struggling with the "Manager" part.

Pioli has overseen far too much turnover in his coaching staff, he's compiled a shallow roster that can't sustain injury, and he's fielded an offense that, in too many games, has serious difficulty moving the ball past the 50 freaking yard line. The 50 yard line. His defense has improved ... mainly due to players who were already Chiefs when he arrived.

Frankly, I can glom onto the "process" idea that many Planeteers refer to with scorn. I know it takes time to turn a team around and we were in bad, bad shape. But, to my mind, the "process" should involve moving in a particular, clear, well-defined direction. We don't seem to have that direction ... or clear plan ... or identity. (Other than establishing a reputation as a franchise that won't tell you what's for breakfast because it's a secret.) That's my main criticism of the guy. He makes mistakes then deflects the blame. Hire a coach, then, a year later, undermine him by leaking stories to the press? That's an identity? Publicly claim you seriously sought competition for your struggling quarterback, then sign Palko? That's a purpose? Back up Berry with Saggy Pissmybelly? The list goes on and on.

Based on my observations so far, it looks like Pioli is floundering in his job and pointing fingers at everybody except himself, all the while preferring excuses and half-truths and manipulation and strawman arguments over accepting personal responsibility. To me, that is not the definition of good "management".

Everything you posted is pretty fair except the "lack of depth" part.

Rebuilding teams, like we have been, are not deep. If they were deep, they would not be rebuilding. That is why they are rebuilding teams.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm sorry I can't back the OP at all. Sure there are some people who take the argument to the extreme against Pioli. Truthfully this team has more young talent than the Chiefs have had in a long but where Pioli has failed, he has failed miserably. I feel that Pioli has given lip service to the fandom when he has talked at all. I hate the air of secrecy the organization has. Really? You need to lock the press corps in a conference room so they don't steal secrets. You can't even trust your own people to watch practice. Isn't it the job of the cleaning team to pick up the freaking gum wrappers?

Coming off a division championship Pioli didn't take the steps to take the team to the next level. He undercut and sniped at the coach that he wanted to fire. Despite the talk now of increased competition at every position, several were left without adequate backups while the team held $27 million in cap space in reserve. We had to live through Barry "Open Gate" Richardson at RT, a who's who at safety to replace Berry, and Tyler Palko was the best option we could find for a backup QB. The most important position on the offense has been a void for your entire stay here. Why do I feel that the promise of increase competition at QB is going to be a rookie who won't be ready for three years or another castoff. The most important position for the 3-4 has also been a void. We have a reported $63 million in cap space that recent reports have tried to have us believe is just $20 million and cannot sign our two biggest free agents with only two weeks before they hit the open market. We'll probably end up franchising one and waving goodbye to the other.

Pioli, you've talked a good game this off season and said all the things the fans want to hear. Prove to us now its not just lip service. If you cannot bring a real QB here, improve the depth on the team and fill the holes on this team, then you are a liar. You are on a one year window to improve or walk out the door.

The secrecy isn't all bad. The Chiefs front office is far more impervious to leaks than other organizations. And it does provide a competitive advantage.

Do you want a competitive advantage, or do you want a competitive advantage?

Epic Fail 007
02-27-2012, 12:22 PM
He gave us Matt Cassel. **** him.

He was the best choice at the time. Grow up and understand its partly a business.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:24 PM
That team had a good QB under center, something we still don't have after three years into the Piloi regime.

What would you have done to remedy this problem?

Honors system. You wouldn't have picked Andy Dalton.

tredadda
02-27-2012, 12:27 PM
What would you have done to remedy this problem?

Honors system. You wouldn't have picked Andy Dalton.

Actually I would have. I liked him at TCU and something about him made me think he would be good. Now I would be lying if I said I felt the same way about Cam. I thought he was hype. I was wrong about him though.

Epic Fail 007
02-27-2012, 12:29 PM
Hes done a better job overall than peterson did. No matter what any of you say. Many of you are to young to really understand and remember carl. But scott is pleasent compared to carls run. You have not seen cheap until you see what carl did.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:31 PM
Actually I would have. I liked him at TCU and something about him made me think he would be good. Now I would be lying if I said I felt the same way about Cam. I thought he was hype. I was wrong about him though.

Nice little piece of revisionist history.

Your account at ChiefsPlanet started back in May. Find me one thread where you mentioned Andy Dalton.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 12:34 PM
The Chiefs haven't changed?

They aren't more balanced now than they've ever been since Montana?

They aren't built by the draft better now than any time in my young lifetime?

They have changed radically, from Vermeil to Herm.

I suppose I just don't know what you mean by "changing."

0 significant wins in 19 years. They means have changed but the end has not.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 12:35 PM
Yeah, It most definitely has...

When it comes to endlessly (and sometimes mindlessly) bitching about the Chiefs front office, no it hasn't...

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 12:36 PM
The secrecy isn't all bad. The Chiefs front office is far more impervious to leaks than other organizations. And it does provide a competitive advantage.

Do you want a competitive advantage, or do you want a competitive advantage?

I don't believe at all that their secrecy provides a competitive advantage.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 12:45 PM
Todd Haley was the absolute worst hire this organization has ever made. He basically gave Pioli, his team and the fans a big **** YOU by purposely losing by keeping Palko out there, no coach in the NFL is that stupid, that was payback/revenge and cost this team a playoff berth.

Todd Haley was such a disaster that, since being fired by KC, he has:

A) become toxic and unhireable

B) been hired by one of the two best franchises in the NFL

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 12:48 PM
0 significant wins in 19 years. They means have changed but the end has not.

I think there's a big difference in building that playoff platform on sand (Carl) and building it on a much stronger foundation (Pioli).

I don't believe at all that their secrecy provides a competitive advantage.

How do you figure?

You don't remember teams leapfrogging us at every turn when Herm was our coach?

tredadda
02-27-2012, 12:48 PM
Nice little piece of revisionist history.

Your account at ChiefsPlanet started back in May. Find me one thread where you mentioned Andy Dalton.

Not revisionist history at all. You can believe me if you want, either way is irrelevant to me. I am not going to comb through almost a years worth of posts and threads to find proof for you.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 12:53 PM
Direckshun's right about the QB thing. The only legit option we had would have been to draft Sanchez. Instead, we spent a second rounder on Cassel and Vrabel. It didn't work out, but it was the right move at the time.

Dalton is a better option than Cassel, but he was never a reasonable choice at our spot, and I don't see him as a guy who is goint to win a Super Bowl. He's more like Flacco, IMO.

The only major weakness on this team is a franchise QB, and there haven't been any out there to be had. Maybe it's possible to trade our next 2 drafts for RGIII, but I'm not aware of and blockbuster trades that have worked out well for teams giving up picks.

tredadda
02-27-2012, 12:58 PM
Direckshun's right about the QB thing. The only legit option we had would have been to draft Sanchez. Instead, we spent a second rounder on Cassel and Vrabel. It didn't work out, but it was the right move at the time.

Dalton is a better option than Cassel, but he was never a reasonable choice at our spot, and I don't see him as a guy who is goint to win a Super Bowl. He's more like Flacco, IMO.

The only major weakness on this team is a franchise QB, and there haven't been any out there to be had. Maybe it's possible to trade our next 2 drafts for RGIII, but I'm not aware of and blockbuster trades that have worked out well for teams giving up picks.

The last two times there have been blockbuster trades were involving RBs. That is always a bad move. A potential franchise QB in a QB driven league is different.

Epic Fail 007
02-27-2012, 01:02 PM
Todd Haley was the absolute worst hire this organization has ever made. He basically gave Pioli, his team and the fans a big **** YOU by purposely losing by keeping Palko out there, no coach in the NFL is that stupid, that was payback/revenge and cost this team a playoff berth.

Yes he did. Big reason we missed the playoffs because of haley.

Direckshun
02-27-2012, 01:02 PM
Not revisionist history at all. You can believe me if you want, either way is irrelevant to me. I am not going to comb through almost a years worth of posts and threads to find proof for you.

I will choose not to believe you.

The following is the totality of your posts on Dalton since you've been a member:

Why couldn't RGIII start right away? Cam Newton did and so did Dalton and I think RGIII is the better QB than Dalton and possibly Newton.

I would have to look back at all the FA QBs and those drafted ahead of Stanzi to best be able to answer that. To think that the best out there in the past three years were Cassel, Croyle, Palko, Stanzi, and Guitterez is a mighty stretch. What stopped us from getting Dalton with our first rounder last year? He would have helped us more than Baldwin. This is not hindsight either. I liked Dalton in the draft and thought he could be good. He was not worth a #1 pick, but he was worth at least a late first orunder (which of course we had)

You posted that last one three weeks ago.

The evidence is heavily stacked that you are exercising revisionist history.

TEX
02-27-2012, 01:02 PM
Hes done a better job overall than peterson did. No matter what any of you say. Many of you are to young to really understand and remember carl. But scott is pleasent compared to carls run. You have not seen cheap until you see what carl did.

Not at the same point in thier careers in KC he hasn't.

FAX
02-27-2012, 01:07 PM
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/5222/dontcryrestunningphotog.jpg

Another unprovoked attack!!! I have no choice but to defend my honor and the reputation of all those who stand tall, as I do, for endless mindlessness. To wit!!!

*ahem*

Laz pulls out another strange photo
Having added a lame little quote-o
It goes without asking
That he's multi-tasking
Posting with his dad's dick in his throat-o

Ah ho!!!

FAX

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 01:08 PM
I think there's a big difference in building that playoff platform on sand (Carl) and building it on a much stronger foundation (Pioli).

If you use up all of your resources building your foundation and never identify the materials needed to build the actual house, it doesn't matter that your foundation is built of concrete. In fact, if the foundation is built of sand, at least your successor has a much easier time starting over...

How do you figure?

You don't remember teams leapfrogging us at every turn when Herm was our coach?

I honestly don't have any idea what you are talking about.

tredadda
02-27-2012, 01:12 PM
I will choose not to believe you.

The following is the totality of your posts on Dalton since you've been a member:





You posted that last one three weeks ago.

The evidence is heavily stacked that you are exercising revisionist history.

Considering that the draft happened in April and I joined in May it is hard to see my opinions before the draft. I guess I should have joined before then so that way when this conversation arises I could have more posts stating my opinion of Dalton. My bad. I guess I could not have conversations with other Chiefs fans unless it was on this board. I also guess my knowledge started in May when I joined. Again if it is revisionist history to you, then so be it. Whatever works for you, again I care little to nothing what your opinion of my supposed revisionist history is.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 01:12 PM
If you use up all of your resources building your foundation and never identify the materials needed to build the actual house, it doesn't matter that your foundation is built of concrete. In fact, if the foundation is built of sand, at least your successor has a much easier time starting over...



I honestly don't have any idea what you are talking about.

I guess Pioli should have used bricks for the roof instead of the walls because there were no shingles available.

patteeu
02-27-2012, 01:13 PM
His option was not to pay him 63 million dollars and take a wait and see approach to whether:
1. Cassel was at least worthy of a long term starters contract.
2. Good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl

Instead he gave him a long term contract and wasted money well before the season started. If I were Clark Hunt I'd fire him just based off that decision alone. Why was it so imperative to give him that contract at that point in time? Why did we give one of the most penalized CB's last year who is a descending player in this league seven million a year and letting a younger ascending player walk?

Why do you care about the money? It didn't create a tight cap situation. It hasn't prevented the Chiefs from signing any free agent nor has it prevented them from signing a better QB (particularly since there haven't really been any opportunities to do so).

FAX
02-27-2012, 01:26 PM
This is going to sound like a really stupid question to all the highly intelligent draftabulators in the house (I am fully aware that you guys know more than I about these matters), but isn't it the GM's job to find players?

I mean, let's imagine, for a moment, a world in which Cassel hadn't been shopped by the Pats ... or maybe a continent where McDumbass made the deal with Belichick before we acted ... either way, a township where the Pioli was unable to acquire Cassel for some legitimate reason or another.

Are you guys saying that we would not have scoured the league for another quarterback and worked out a deal with somebody, somewhere, somehow? I can see the "no sure-fire, franchise quarterbacks available" deal, but those guys don't grow on trees, anyhow. Teams can wait a decade for one of those guys. Still, it sure seems as though NFL teams busily sign quarterbacks every single off-season. What makes us different in that regard? I guess don't fully understand the "we had no other options" argument.

FAX

Chief Faithful
02-27-2012, 01:27 PM
Most of the complaints I read on the Planet about Pioli have some merit except for the 2009 draft complaints. First, the 2009 draft was a poor draft talent wise in comparison to the NFL drafts before and after. It was simply a down year. Second, the 2009 draft was as much Peterson's last draft as it was Pioli's first draft. All the scouts, scouting reports and established processes in place were leftover from Peterson. It is well documented that Pioli fired all but two scouts and instituted all new methods and processes after the draft. Since Pioli has put in his people, methods and processes all the drafts have been very good compared to other Chiefs drafts and compared to other NFL team drafts.

If the 2012 draft is as good as the 2010 and 2011 drafts then that confirms Pioli was not lucky in the last two drafts, but instead has a solid method to his madness. I do not believe in excuses for 2009, but keep it real, the 2009 draft is not a good case to use for evaluation of how well Pioli drafts.

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 01:29 PM
This is going to sound like a really stupid question to all the highly intelligent draftabulators in the house (I am fully aware that you guys know more than I about these matters), but isn't it the GM's job to find players?

I mean, let's imagine, for a moment, a world in which Cassel hadn't been shopped by the Pats ... or maybe a continent where McDumbass made the deal with Belichick before we acted ... either way, a township where the Pioli was unable to acquire Cassel for some legitimate reason or another.

Are you guys saying that we would not have scoured the league for another quarterback and worked out a deal with somebody, somewhere, somehow? I can see the "no sure-fire, franchise quarterbacks available" deal, but those guys don't grow on trees, anyhow. Teams can wait a decade for one of those guys. Still, it sure seems as though NFL teams busily sign quarterbacks every single off-season. What makes us different in that regard? I guess don't fully understand the "we had no other options" argument.

FAX

We had no other options because no other QB was available via The Tree.

Epic Fail 007
02-27-2012, 01:40 PM
Not at the same point in thier careers in KC he hasn't.

Highly disagree.Petersons players first 3 yrs were no names off the street except on defense.

the Talking Can
02-27-2012, 01:48 PM
Highly disagree.Petersons players first 3 yrs were no names off the street except on defense.

Carl hired Marty

Pioli hired Haley

Carl drafted Derrick Thomas

Pioli drafted Tyson Jackson


the end...until pioli wins a playoff game

BigMeatballDave
02-27-2012, 01:50 PM
In Pioli I trust...




...to fuck shit up.

BoneKrusher
02-27-2012, 01:53 PM
Carl hired Marty

Pioli hired Haley

Carl drafted Derrick Thomas

Pioli drafted Tyson Jackson


the end...until pioli wins a playoff game

that's a good way to look at it man.

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 02:25 PM
FAX
FAX loves him some Haley man sax


LMAO

Chief Faithful
02-27-2012, 02:38 PM
that's a good way to look at it man.

If you are nine years old.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 02:40 PM
This is going to sound like a really stupid question to all the highly intelligent draftabulators in the house (I am fully aware that you guys know more than I about these matters), but isn't it the GM's job to find players?

I mean, let's imagine, for a moment, a world in which Cassel hadn't been shopped by the Pats ... or maybe a continent where McDumbass made the deal with Belichick before we acted ... either way, a township where the Pioli was unable to acquire Cassel for some legitimate reason or another.

Are you guys saying that we would not have scoured the league for another quarterback and worked out a deal with somebody, somewhere, somehow? I can see the "no sure-fire, franchise quarterbacks available" deal, but those guys don't grow on trees, anyhow. Teams can wait a decade for one of those guys. Still, it sure seems as though NFL teams busily sign quarterbacks every single off-season. What makes us different in that regard? I guess don't fully understand the "we had no other options" argument.

FAX

Sure we would have done SOMETHING. We could have sent multiple first round picks to Cincy for Carson Palmer. We could have picked up Jamarcus Russell. We could have started Brodie Croyle.

There are millions of alternatives, but very few if any are good options.

Look how many garbage QBs start every week. There are simply more teams in the NFL than there are good QBs.

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2012, 02:41 PM
Highly disagree.Petersons players first 3 yrs were no names off the street except on defense.

You really are fucking stupid aren't you?

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2012, 02:44 PM
I guarantee Sanchez would have been the better pick at the time not to mention he would have been better because the Chiefs had better coaching than the Jets did on the offensive side of the ball. In 2009 when he was drafted we had Chan Gailley. In 2010 we had Charlie Weis. Both are million times better than Brain Fucking Schottenheimer.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2012, 02:46 PM
How much money did Cassel get his first year?

28 million guaranteed bonus

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 02:46 PM
that's a good way to look at it man.

Another way to look at it would be to say that Pioli has already won as many Super Bowls and been to as many Super Bowls as Peterson. He has also drafted as many franchise QBs as Carl.

He's only won 3 fewer playoff games in KC in just 3 seasons as Carl did in decades.

Both of them are stupid ways to look at it, but Piolo. Has a bunch of rings, and Carl has shit, so I'm going to give Scott the benefit of the doubt in the head-to-head.

Epic Fail 007
02-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Carl hired Marty

Pioli hired Haley

Carl drafted Derrick Thomas

Pioli drafted Tyson Jackson


the end...until pioli wins a playoff game

Oh yes and look how well marty turned out. Getting booted out of the playoffs every year because of his ultra conservative ways.Yes pioli took some gambles that did not pan out. Like we all do. Atleast he gambled unlike peterson. For one Justin houston was a big gamble looks like it will work In most cases Carl would not retain kc players. And don`t bring up carr. There are choices to be made sometimes plus carr is highly overrated. Yes cassel did not work. But unlike carl he went out and got a qb. Alot of the hate for pioli here is based on people wanting to fit in going with the crowd. And if anyone says its not well then its a lie.

dirk digler
02-27-2012, 02:53 PM
Sure we would have done SOMETHING. We could have sent multiple first round picks to Cincy for Carson Palmer. We could have picked up Jamarcus Russell. We could have started Brodie Croyle.

There are millions of alternatives, but very few if any are good options.

Look how many garbage QBs start every week. There are simply more teams in the NFL than there are good QBs.

This team could have had Mike Vick for free.

Looking back who wouldn't have pulled the trigger on that?

Okie_Apparition
02-27-2012, 02:59 PM
Carl & DV won a ring together in some league that no longer exists

BoneKrusher
02-27-2012, 03:00 PM
If you are nine years old.

Carl has a playoff win to show for his efforts, Pioli has Matt Cassel

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 03:02 PM
This team could have had Mike Vick for free.

Looking back who wouldn't have pulled the trigger on that?

You mean we could have been 10-6 and 8-8 with a QB who couldn't stay healthy each of the last 2 seasons and 0-1 in the playoffs just like the Eagles? How exotic...Dammit Scott!

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 03:09 PM
You mean we could have been 10-6 and 8-8 with a QB who couldn't stay healthy each of the last 2 seasons and 0-1 in the playoffs just like the Eagles? How exotic...Dammit Scott!

Turn back time? And you absolutely try to sign Vick. Absofuckinglutely.

But the above is an example of too much blame and praise always being leveled at the QB. Yeah, Vick is to blame for 8-8 and 0-1. To this end, Cassel isn't always the devil.

A bit of moderation is in order, but Vick is easily a better option to Cassel. Not even close.

dirk digler
02-27-2012, 03:10 PM
You mean we could have been 8-8 each of the last 2 seasons and 0-1 in the playoffs just like the Eagles? Dammit Scott!

I think Vick would be scary good in our offense since we had\have a great running game with Charles.

Add to the fact Vick can throw it on a rope for 50 yds while Cassel barely can make a 5yd pass and I think we could have a dominant offense.

Just my opinion.

TEX
02-27-2012, 03:10 PM
Highly disagree.Petersons players first 3 yrs were no names off the street except on defense.

You can "highly disagree" all you want to, and you're also dead wrong. By year 3, Peterson had done a better job than Pioli. Look at the facts. Remember, Peterson didn't have free agency in the beginning.

FAX
02-27-2012, 03:11 PM
Sure we would have done SOMETHING. We could have sent multiple first round picks to Cincy for Carson Palmer. We could have picked up Jamarcus Russell. We could have started Brodie Croyle.

There are millions of alternatives, but very few if any are good options.

Look how many garbage QBs start every week. There are simply more teams in the NFL than there are good QBs.

Yeah ... I agree. But that's sort of the point, Mr. Saul Good.

I've just been hearing (over and over) this argument that "there wasn't any other option" in respect to Cassel. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Now, it could be that I'm just really stupid and I readily admit to that part and I'm working on that by taking eye-to-hand coordination classes and repeating positive affirmations every single day. In the meantime, I believe it's safe to say that, when it comes to quarterbacks, other teams explore and execute upon other "options" every, single off-season.

Clearly, we wouldn't have found or acquired the "franchise" guy that we all want. But, again, those guys are rare in the first place. To me, it seems like, if Cassel had not been available, we would have found somebody, somewhere to play quarterback for the Chiefs. Now, that person might have been worse than Cassel ... or they might have been better. That, we'll never know. However, it seems to me that, given Cassel's performance to date, the "no other option" argument grows increasingly pale.

FAX

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 03:14 PM
Carl has a playoff win to show for his efforts, Pioli has Matt Cassel
peterson had 3 playoff win in 20 years, none since 93


pioli has had 3 years

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2012, 03:15 PM
peterson had 3 playoff win in 20 years, none since 93


pioli has had 3 years

Peterson had a playoff win in his first 3 seasons.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 03:19 PM
You can "highly disagree" all you want to, and you're also dead wrong. By year 3, Peterson had done a better job than Pioli. Look at the facts. Remember, Peterson didn't have free agency in the beginning.

The Chiefs won 23 games in Carl's first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearance and no playoff victories. In the 3 years prior, the Chiefs had won 20 games and made the playoffs once.

The Chiefs won 21 games in Pioli's first 3 seasons with one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. In the three years prior, the Chiefs had won 15 games and made the playoffs once.

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 03:21 PM
You can "highly disagree" all you want to, and you're also dead wrong. By year 3, Peterson had done a better job than Pioli. Look at the facts. Remember, Peterson didn't have free agency in the beginning.
plan B free agency started the same time Peterson joined the chiefs

ChiefsCountry
02-27-2012, 03:21 PM
The Chiefs won 23 games in Carl's first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearance and no playoff victories. In the 3 years prior, the Chiefs had won 20 games and made the playoffs once.


This is false dipshit.

The Chiefs won 29 games in Peterson's first three seasons. Made the playoffs twice and won a playoff game against the Raiders.

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 03:22 PM
The Chiefs won 23 games in Carl's first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearance and no playoff victories. In the 3 years prior, the Chiefs had won 20 games and made the playoffs once.

The Chiefs won 21 games in Pioli's first 3 seasons with one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. In the three years prior, the Chiefs had won 15 games and made the playoffs once.

Chiefs won a playoff game in '91.

I realize that Carl long overstayed his welcome, but he absolutely built the Arrowhead experience of the 90s and deserves credit. Probably needed to leave with Marty, and definitely needed to leave after Gunther.

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 03:23 PM
8, 11, and then 10 victories in Carl's first three years.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 03:25 PM
Chiefs won a playoff game in '91.

I realize that Carl long overstayed his welcome, but he absolutely built the Arrowhead experience of the 90s and deserves credit. Probably needed to leave with Marty, and definitely needed to leave after Gunther.

I was thinking CP started in 88, guess it was 89.

FAX
02-27-2012, 03:26 PM
The Chiefs won 23 games in Carl's first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearance and no playoff victories. In the 3 years prior, the Chiefs had won 20 games and made the playoffs once.

The Chiefs won 21 games in Pioli's first 3 seasons with one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. In the three years prior, the Chiefs had won 15 games and made the playoffs once.

I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

FAX

DeezNutz
02-27-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

FAX

Only because the evidence is off.

From '89-'98, Peterson was pretty proficient at his job, and he had a hell of a lot better start than Pioli has had. Now, it could well be that the drafts of '10 and '11 will translate into sustained excellence, but...

Carl's first three years are well beyond the level of performance that Pioli has demonstrated. Not even close.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 03:45 PM
Only because the evidence is off.

From '89-'98, Peterson was pretty proficient at his job, and he had a hell of a lot better start than Pioli has had. Now, it could well be that the drafts of '10 and '11 will translate into sustained excellence, but...

Carl's first three years are well beyond the level of performance that Pioli has demonstrated. Not even close.

3 playoff wins in a decade and no Super Bowl appearances isn't proficient in my book.

Molitoth
02-27-2012, 03:54 PM
Todd Haley was the absolute worst hire this organization has ever made. He basically gave Pioli, his team and the fans a big **** YOU by purposely losing by keeping Palko out there, no coach in the NFL is that stupid, that was payback/revenge and cost this team a playoff berth.

Haley was on the suck-4-RG3 wagon!!! Don't you see his genius in starting Palko?

BigRock
02-27-2012, 03:55 PM
People keep bitching about the contract Cassel received.

He was tagged. KC was on the hook for $14.65 million, the amount of the tag at the time.

With his new contract KC paid him $15.2 million. People are really upset about the half mil?

The next year he got 11.9 million. If they had to tag him twice to evaluate him it would have been around 30 million. They paid him 27.1 for the first two years. The money would have been the same.

And here's the best part: if Cassel had been tagged twice, not only would it have cost more money, he would have been signed long-term after his fluke 2010 season.

Meaning that right now, today, we'd only be one year into a long-term contract with Cassel that would be worth a hell of a lot more than the one he actually signed.

BoneKrusher
02-27-2012, 03:56 PM
peterson had 3 playoff win in 20 years, none since 93


pioli has had 3 years

but Pioli blew it by trading for Castle.

if he thinks or still thinks Castle is a starting QB he aint worth a fuck as GM>

InChiefsHell
02-27-2012, 04:04 PM
I think Vick would be scary good in our offense since we had\have a great running game with Charles.

Add to the fact Vick can throw it on a rope for 50 yds while Cassel barely can make a 5yd pass and I think we could have a dominant offense.

Just my opinion.

But Vick was\is a thug dog killah yo! Not the right fitty-three and stuff...

Mr. Laz
02-27-2012, 04:43 PM
but Pioli blew it by trading for Castle.
yep, he did.

[/edit] actually the mistake wasn't trading for Cassel as it was giving him the big contact, instead of immediately looking for a better long term solution.

beach tribe
02-27-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm definitely on board with the basics principles of the OP.
Say what you want of the Pioli regime, but the fact that he's taken a broken franchise and transformed it into a talented ball club built through the draft to be a future contender for many years is undeniable.
If he fails to acquire the pieces needed to become a SB contender before his tenure is up, I will consider him a failure, but all the dumbasses who run around acting like it's a foregone conclusion that he will not make the moves necessary just look like arrogant self-important fools.
I have no doubt that the proper triggers will be pulled when the right targets are in sight.
We need a Franchise QB. No doubt about it. But all this " I don't care if the QB busts at least we will have taken a shot" talk has got to be the stupidest shit I have ever heard. If we would have chosen Mark Sanchez we would still have the same situation at QB we have now, and would be without one of the most promising young 5-techs in the league. That whole draft was full of suck. I'd rather have Tyson Jackson than some worthless POS that would need replacing right now. It's easy to look back, find the best player from the draft and say "see, should have picked Clay Mathews, what an idiot Pioli was" totally disregarding the fact that almost 20 other teams passed on him for the loser they ended up with out of that draft.
A lot of fools around here act like their opinion is just worth way more than is.
And then you have the other group, a real valuable set, who offer no opinion whatsoever of what we should have done, and post the exact same "Cassel/Pioli suck"
post over and over and over ad nauseum.
What would we do without their valuable contributions to this board.

With that said, there is no denying the fact that this place also has a collection of some of the finest posters on ANY football site period, and not all of them stand behind this regime, but give well thought out and viable reasons why they feel they shouldn't, and I completely respect their opinions.

Guru
02-27-2012, 04:58 PM
As long as Cassel is our starter I won't support this fool.

beach tribe
02-27-2012, 04:58 PM
And here's the best part: if Cassel had been tagged twice, not only would it have cost more money, he would have been signed long-term after his fluke 2010 season.

Meaning that right now, today, we'd only be one year into a long-term contract with Cassel that would be worth a hell of a lot more than the one he actually signed.

Good point. Fact is Cassel's contract has not prevented this team from being able to make any move it wished to make, so the contract is completely moot.

FringeNC
02-27-2012, 05:00 PM
yep, he did.

[/edit] actually the mistake wasn't trading for Cassel as it was giving him the big contact, instead of immediately looking for a better long term solution.

Yeah, trading for Cassel was a mistake. 2008 Tyler Thigpen was better than 2009 Matt Cassel.

Tribal Warfare
02-27-2012, 05:02 PM
As long as Cassel is our starter I won't support this fool.

A big this

Chiefnj2
02-27-2012, 05:03 PM
2008 Tyler Thigpen was better than 2009 Matt Cassel.

2008 everything was better than 2009. Bowe, Albert, etc. You fire your OC 2 weeks before the season and have head coach over his head, things fall apart.

beach tribe
02-27-2012, 05:07 PM
As long as Cassel is our starter I won't support this fool.

Until Pioli proves that he's gonna go down in flames with Cassel and not replace him with an unquestionably better option, that is realistically attainable, I will support him.

If he does end up doing what we all FEAR he might. I will spit on his grave.

beach tribe
02-27-2012, 05:13 PM
2008 everything was better than 2009. Bowe, Albert, etc. You fire your OC 2 weeks before the season and have head coach over his head, things fall apart.

Yet we went 2-14 in 2008.

Man, those were the days. Pioli just had to come in, and fuck it all up.

FringeNC
02-27-2012, 05:13 PM
2008 everything was better than 2009. Bowe, Albert, etc. You fire your OC 2 weeks before the season and have head coach over his head, things fall apart.

For you to be correct that Haley is incompetent (which you obviously believe), Pittsburgh just had to make a HUGE mistake in hiring him. Who knows, you could be right, but my money is on Cassel being completely responsible for our ineptitude on offense.

Saul Good
02-27-2012, 05:22 PM
As long as Cassel is our starter I won't support this fool.

Who should we get? He drafted Stanzi and signed Orton. Should he have outbid the Raiders for Carson Palmer?

FTR, I think we're about to make a serious push for Peyton if he's healthy. That's a big IF, though. Short of that, I don't know who else is out there.

Chiefnj2
02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
Yet we went 2-14 in 2008.

Man, those were the days. Pioli just had to come in, and **** it all up.

Herm bit the bullet starting young guys like Carr and Flowers.

htismaqe
02-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Who should we get? He drafted Stanzi and signed Orton. Should he have outbid the Raiders for Carson Palmer?

FTR, I think we're about to make a serious push for Peyton if he's healthy. That's a big IF, though. Short of that, I don't know who else is out there.

I think you're right.

There's just too much smoke for there not to be a fire...

MagicHef
02-27-2012, 05:36 PM
He's obviously not a long-term answer or anything, but what about Hasselbeck? He was an FA last season.

Easy 6
02-27-2012, 05:38 PM
I think this should win you the giant post of the year award, Mr. Direckshun. Hands down.

LMAO

Direckshun
02-28-2012, 02:02 PM
Herm bit the bullet starting young guys like Carr and Flowers.

Herm bit the bullet doing nothing other than bringing in Croyle, Huard, and Thigpen to start at QB.

Our depth chart of Cassel and Stanzi beats the hell out of that.

BoneKrusher
02-28-2012, 02:14 PM
yep, he did.

[/edit] actually the mistake wasn't trading for Cassel as it was giving him the big contact, instead of immediately looking for a better long term solution.

Yeah i agree but Pioli knew all about Cassel from his days in New England and by him thinking Cassel could be a starter in the NFL says it all about his ability at talent scouting.

beach tribe
02-28-2012, 02:21 PM
Yeah i agree but Pioli knew all about Cassel from his days in New England and by him thinking Cassel could be a starter in the NFL says it all about his ability at talent scouting.

He took a shot with him hoping he would continue to develop, and failed.
No GM has ever been right on every call EVER.
I think his drafts are more a testament to his talent evaluation than one freaking player.

BoneKrusher
02-28-2012, 02:25 PM
He took a shot with him hoping he would continue to develop, and failed.
No GM has ever been right on every call EVER.
I think his drafts are more a testament to his talent evaluation than one freaking player.
i give him some credit but most of the better players on the Chiefs current roster were drafted by Herm.
i think Pioli made a bias decision with Cassel because Matt was one of his former Patriots players.

beach tribe
02-28-2012, 02:43 PM
i give him some credit but most of the better players on the Chiefs current roster were drafted by Herm.
i think Pioli made a bias decision with Cassel because Matt was one of his former Patriots players.

Without the supporting cast and coaches brought in by Pioli, most of those players wouldn't have reached the level of development that they have.
Pioli's 2011 draft is also looking like it is going up to be just as talented as the 2008 draft, which was phenomenal.
Needless to say though, Pioli's drafting from 2010 to the present has been as good as any team in the league. We're all pretty much in agreement that we are a FQB away from contending. I'm almost certain that had RAC not brought his 3-4 D here, and put DJ, and Tamba in position to succeed, we wouldn't be talking so much about how much talent was left for this regime.

BoneKrusher
02-28-2012, 03:19 PM
Without the supporting cast and coaches brought in by Pioli, most of those players wouldn't have reached the level of development that they have.
Pioli's 2011 draft is also looking like it is going up to be just as talented as the 2008 draft, which was phenomenal.
Needless to say though, Pioli's drafting from 2010 to the present has been as good as any team in the league. We're all pretty much in agreement that we are a FQB away from contending. I'm almost certain that had RAC not brought his 3-4 D here, and put DJ, and Tamba in position to succeed, we wouldn't be talking so much about how much talent was left for this regime.

i agree.
i do think Pioli would damage all he's done up to this point if he does not make a run at Manning or at least try and bring Orton back.

IMO sticking with Cassel and not making a run at a decent QB is football suicide for Scott.

Okie_Apparition
02-28-2012, 03:38 PM
Pioli will stand behind Cassel until he sets him to fail a steroid test

BoneKrusher
02-28-2012, 03:40 PM
Pioli will stand behind Cassel until he sets him to fail a steroid test

that's what i'm afraid of and why i have started feeling so much hate for Pioli.

durtyrute
02-28-2012, 03:43 PM
Pioli will stand behind Cassel until he sets him to fail a steroid test

Where do you get this from?

Guru
02-28-2012, 03:44 PM
Until Pioli proves that he's gonna go down in flames with Cassel and not replace him with an unquestionably better option, that is realistically attainable, I will support him.

If he does end up doing what we all FEAR he might. I will spit on his grave.

That was kind of my point. He hasn't given me any reason to believe he won't be trotting Cassel back out there though.

Guru
02-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Who should we get? He drafted Stanzi and signed Orton. Should he have outbid the Raiders for Carson Palmer?

FTR, I think we're about to make a serious push for Peyton if he's healthy. That's a big IF, though. Short of that, I don't know who else is out there.

As long as the name isn't Cassel or Palko. I would be fine with Stanzi and Orton if this whole "we are trying desperately to find a QB" is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

It had better be a damn OPEN competition too. Equal time on the field with the first team.

beach tribe
02-28-2012, 04:30 PM
i agree.
i do think Pioli would damage all he's done up to this point if he does not make a run at Manning or at least try and bring Orton back.

IMO sticking with Cassel and not making a run at a decent QB is football suicide for Scott.

Yep. It would be a real disappointment if he wastes all the talent this team has acquired by sticking with Casshole. I really just don't think he's that stupid. I really really don't. I'm not going to rule out Cassel starting in 2012. Unfortunately it is a possibility that Orton doesn't want to play here, nor does Manning, and we're shit out of luck for one more season. Of course even if Pioli wants to upgrade the position, it won't matter to anyone, and they will all be calling for his head. I don't see Pioli over paying for someone who is not any better than Cassel, but I do believe that they want to upgrade the QB spot, and will no later than 2013. That said, someone is going to be brought in. I'm praying for Manning, and hoping for Orton if we can't land PM, and am going to be pissed if we have to waste another year with Cassel.

BoneKrusher
02-28-2012, 04:33 PM
Yep. It would be a real disappointment if he wastes all the talent this team has acquired by sticking with Casshole. I really just don't think he's that stupid. I really really don't. I'm not going to rule out Cassel starting in 2012. Unfortunately it is a possibility that Orton doesn't want to play here, nor does Manning, and we're shit out of luck for one more season. Of course even if Pioli wants to upgrade the position, it won't matter to anyone, and they will all be calling for his head. I don't see Pioli over paying for someone who is not any better than Cassel, but I do believe that they want to upgrade the QB spot, and will no later than 2013. That said, someone is going to be brought in. I'm praying for Manning, and hoping for Orton if we can't land PM, and am going to be pissed if we have to waste another year with Cassel.

Yep to all. :thumb:

Direckshun
03-11-2012, 09:30 PM
Still do.

Three7s
03-11-2012, 09:30 PM
Still do.
Never did.

O.city
03-11-2012, 09:31 PM
He just whiffed on Manning, couldn't lock up Bowe, is letting Carr walk. I'd say this offseason is off to a pretty disastrous start.

Inmem58
03-11-2012, 09:31 PM
This offseason is horrible

Count Alex's Wins
03-11-2012, 09:31 PM
Can't wait for the draft, gotta get us a RT.

DeezNutz
03-11-2012, 09:32 PM
I trust that he's still a fucking over-hyped piece of shit, and no True Fan manifesto will change this.

Count Alex's Wins
03-11-2012, 09:46 PM
Anagrams for Scott Pioli:


Solicit Pot
Copilots It
Octopi Slit
Coot Pistil
Clips I Toot
Loco Pi Tits
Cops Oil Tit
Cost Oil Pit
Colt I Tip So

Baconeater
03-11-2012, 09:47 PM
LMAO @ "Pi Tits".

Count Alex's Wins
03-11-2012, 09:48 PM
Loco Pie Tits is Pioli's new nickname.

Crazy fat pie-loving titty-having fucker.

Direckshun
03-11-2012, 09:48 PM
I trust that he's still a ****ing over-hyped piece of shit, and no True Fan manifesto will change this.

Deez, you've proved time and time again that you wontonly perform this kabuki theatre where you just pretty much say things with no warrant or logic behind them, just because it soothes your fragile emotions to hammer them out on your keyboard.

Case in point: describing me as a True Fan is like describing KnowMo as intellectually honest.

Get your shit straight. We've been through this twice before.

Chief_For_Life58
03-11-2012, 09:49 PM
He just whiffed on Manning, couldn't lock up Bowe, is letting Carr walk. I'd say this offseason is off to a pretty disastrous start.

good god:facepalm:

Direckshun
03-11-2012, 09:50 PM
The Manning whiff is real and painful.

Failing to lock up Bowe isn't damning, though, any more than it is to the majority of teams in this league who were unable to do the same thing to their star players.

We've been through the Carr thing. You want to pay your starting corners more than any other corner combo in NFL history? Flowers/Carr really warrant that?

Bewbies
03-11-2012, 09:53 PM
Giving Bowe the tag is probably the right move. Him and a huge deal makes me a bit nervous...

Carr sucks, but if he knows he can get 12 mil+ good for him. I wouldn't resign with KC for millions and millions less and I grew up loving the team.

KC Tattoo
03-11-2012, 09:57 PM
Yep. It would be a real disappointment if he wastes all the talent this team has acquired by sticking with Casshole. I really just don't think he's that stupid. I really really don't. I'm not going to rule out Cassel starting in 2012. Unfortunately it is a possibility that Orton doesn't want to play here, nor does Manning, and we're shit out of luck for one more season. Of course even if Pioli wants to upgrade the position, it won't matter to anyone, and they will all be calling for his head. I don't see Pioli over paying for someone who is not any better than Cassel, but I do believe that they want to upgrade the QB spot, and will no later than 2013. That said, someone is going to be brought in. I'm praying for Manning, and hoping for Orton if we can't land PM, and am going to be pissed if we have to waste another year with Cassel.

I think Pioli is that stupid. I think he wants Cassel to succeed for his own ego sake. However, I don't think Crennel is that dumb so he is wanting to pursue other QBs like Peyton Manning and just happens RGIII is out of reach for us. So now we are limmited to our other options to get rid of Cassel. IMO, Stanzi right now has a shot to upseat the job and we don't have to spend money on another reject QB like Orton. I think we can do good with Stanzi once he gets settle down into the job. He may/not work out but it would show a willingness to go with a young QB that we drafted & we can still watch for next years QB crop to come out for the draft. Pioli may get fired by then when Cassel is total fail.

DeezNutz
03-11-2012, 09:57 PM
Deez, you've proved time and time again that you wontonly perform this kabuki theatre where you just pretty much say things with no warrant or logic behind them, just because it soothes your fragile emotions to hammer them out on your keyboard.

Case in point: describing me as a True Fan is like describing KnowMo as intellectually honest.

Get your shit straight. We've been through this twice before.

Oh, yes. "Time and again" my little geisha. What was that about warrant and logic?

I'm quite the fragile little poster. You trust Pioli enough to deliver a SB? Will this happen under his tenure?

O.city
03-11-2012, 09:58 PM
In a couple years, when Pioli is a scout for the Pats, can this thread die?

Direckshun
03-11-2012, 10:02 PM
Oh, yes. "Time and again" my little geisha. What was that about warrant and logic?

I'm quite the fragile little poster. You trust Pioli enough to deliver a SB? Will this happen under his tenure?

When you insinuate I'm never advocating QBs, and then you insinuate that I'm all about investing the best picks this team has at nothing but offensive line, you've built a pattern. You should break that pattern ASAP. Repeating baseless bullshit is a waste of your time. Which is saying something.

I'm agnostic right now on the Super Bowl chances with this team. If he continues to build it consistent with how he's done it over the past three years, then we're in it to win it in a couple more years.

DeezNutz
03-11-2012, 10:08 PM
When you insinuate I'm never advocating QBs, and then you insinuate that I'm all about investing the best picks this team has at nothing but offensive line, you've built a pattern. You should break that pattern ASAP. Repeating baseless bullshit is a waste of your time. Which is saying something.

I'm agnostic right now on the Super Bowl chances with this team. If he continues to build it consistent with how he's done it over the past three years, then we're in it to win it in a couple more years.

I don't believe I've insinuated any of the above, other than to make a sweeping gesture to say that anyone who supports Pioli is a True Fan because his consistent disregard of the QB position--tonight serving as a reminder of this--has pissed me off.

In truth, I believe that you, Direckshun (explicit for clarification), would have done things much differently than Pioli to this point.

Count Alex's Wins
03-11-2012, 10:11 PM
I honestly think DShun posts this crap just to make himself feel better.

Direckshun
03-11-2012, 10:50 PM
I honestly think DShun posts this crap just to make himself feel better.

Nothing makes me feel better.